Do I fight to keep this kitty?
April 6, 2014 11:25 PM Subscribe
I'm having a battle of ownership over a cat.
Back on January 29, when it was -50 C, I found a very cold and very friendly kitty on the street outside my house. I brought him inside, shut him up in my spare bedroom and stuck up lost cat posters all over the neighborhood. After two weeks with no response I took him to the vet, got his first shots and had him tested for FHIV, and started introducing him to my female kitty. That night I got a call from his owners, a (very poor, aboriginal) family who live in a small apartment on the corner facing my house. I took him back to them, told them that I'd had some of his shots done and that he'd need to be fixed; I gave them the name of the low-income clinic that does it for 25 bucks, and told the kid that I'd be happy to pay for the rest of the shots, too. I also told them that he shouldn't be outside in this cold.
Then I went to Vancouver for February break.
While I was away I started to get phone calls: not from his owners, but from other people who had found him on the street AGAIN and who had recognized him from the description on the posters. I gave the first person the family's phone number, but she was reluctant to call them; he was out at 11 pm in -45 degrees, she said, and she didn't want to give him back to them. She called me after about three days later and explained that he'd gotten out and hadn't come back. Then my neighbors called: they'd taken him in, thinking that he belonged to me. He'd been hanging around my house.
I came home and took him back to the family.
Fast forward two weeks. I get a third phone call from another woman a block away who's rescued him: he's been in a fight, he's torn up and needs to be spayed, can I please come and get him? When I tell her where he lives she claims that she works for a local rescue and that the apartment block is well known for animal abuse and neglect; she begs me to keep him. I go and get him, take him to my vet, get him neutered, have his boosters done, and get him microchipped. He eventually settles in with my little girlcat and my Peke; he's happy, they're happy, I'm happy.
Then I get a phone call from the woman who owns him: she would like her cat back, please. I lie like a rug and declare I don't know where he is. But of course they live across the street and can see him in the window.
This afternoon he disappeared: I let the beasties out in the backyard and I suspect the kids from the family have grabbed him back. If this is what's happened I expect he'll get out and come back to the house: that's been his pattern so far. He was wandering the neighborhood for over a month and hadn't gone back there voluntarily.
While I completely sympathize with the woman for wanting to keep her kitty, he wasn't in good shape when I found him (he was very skinny, had had his tail shaved and his whiskers trimmed off, hadn't had his shots and hadn't been spayed). At what point does rescue become theft? If he comes back, am I justified in just keeping him?
While I was away I started to get phone calls: not from his owners, but from other people who had found him on the street AGAIN and who had recognized him from the description on the posters. I gave the first person the family's phone number, but she was reluctant to call them; he was out at 11 pm in -45 degrees, she said, and she didn't want to give him back to them. She called me after about three days later and explained that he'd gotten out and hadn't come back. Then my neighbors called: they'd taken him in, thinking that he belonged to me. He'd been hanging around my house.
I came home and took him back to the family.
Fast forward two weeks. I get a third phone call from another woman a block away who's rescued him: he's been in a fight, he's torn up and needs to be spayed, can I please come and get him? When I tell her where he lives she claims that she works for a local rescue and that the apartment block is well known for animal abuse and neglect; she begs me to keep him. I go and get him, take him to my vet, get him neutered, have his boosters done, and get him microchipped. He eventually settles in with my little girlcat and my Peke; he's happy, they're happy, I'm happy.
Then I get a phone call from the woman who owns him: she would like her cat back, please. I lie like a rug and declare I don't know where he is. But of course they live across the street and can see him in the window.
This afternoon he disappeared: I let the beasties out in the backyard and I suspect the kids from the family have grabbed him back. If this is what's happened I expect he'll get out and come back to the house: that's been his pattern so far. He was wandering the neighborhood for over a month and hadn't gone back there voluntarily.
While I completely sympathize with the woman for wanting to keep her kitty, he wasn't in good shape when I found him (he was very skinny, had had his tail shaved and his whiskers trimmed off, hadn't had his shots and hadn't been spayed). At what point does rescue become theft? If he comes back, am I justified in just keeping him?
If he comes back, give them some money and tell them the cat is yours now. Then stop letting him outside.
posted by erst at 11:33 PM on April 6, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by erst at 11:33 PM on April 6, 2014 [12 favorites]
Keep the cat.
posted by quince at 11:37 PM on April 6, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by quince at 11:37 PM on April 6, 2014 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, one person claimed that the building was known for abuse and neglect; my other neighbors don't know about that. More important is that he's not going back there on his own.
Certainly they're poor: he wasn't overfed, and he'd been shaved and trimmed (probably by the kids). My house is the land of milk and honey, where the couches are soft, the Royal Canin is piled high in the bowl and the Fancy Feast flows like wine. And where no-one tries to shave his tail.
But she is actively looking to get her cat back, and her kids want him back. This is not the profile of an animal abuser. I'm torn.
posted by jrochest at 11:49 PM on April 6, 2014
Certainly they're poor: he wasn't overfed, and he'd been shaved and trimmed (probably by the kids). My house is the land of milk and honey, where the couches are soft, the Royal Canin is piled high in the bowl and the Fancy Feast flows like wine. And where no-one tries to shave his tail.
But she is actively looking to get her cat back, and her kids want him back. This is not the profile of an animal abuser. I'm torn.
posted by jrochest at 11:49 PM on April 6, 2014
Suggest they start with something more low-maintenance to build up their abilities to care for a pet. Like a rock. They clearly are not up to taking care of an actual animal.
Seriously? Talk to your local council, the vet, an animal rescue place. Get their advice.
posted by Athanassiel at 12:00 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Seriously? Talk to your local council, the vet, an animal rescue place. Get their advice.
posted by Athanassiel at 12:00 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Notwithstanding the absence of a photo, I would agree that you should keep the cat.
posted by mikeand1 at 12:04 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by mikeand1 at 12:04 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
I agree that you should keep him (and more importantly, keep him inside). But aside from that, when you had him microchipped at the vet, whose name did you use to register him?
posted by dancinglamb at 12:05 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by dancinglamb at 12:05 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
If you think the animal isn't being treated humanely, then contact the appropriate authorities. Although I understand your sentiments here, you can't just take someone else's pet because you think you'd take better care of it.
posted by emd3737 at 12:11 AM on April 7, 2014 [49 favorites]
posted by emd3737 at 12:11 AM on April 7, 2014 [49 favorites]
I concur with emd3737. Unfortunate as it may feel, pets are property, and it isn't legal to expropriate property as such. Call the authorities, explain the situation. I suspect that a sympathetic ear (especially when you can show invoices for veterinary work) might be easy to find.
posted by TheNewWazoo at 12:15 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by TheNewWazoo at 12:15 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is a though situation. To me, it sounds more like the owners do not know how to take proper care of a kitty, rather than them being horrible animal abusers and I get the feeling you realise this too. Then again, if the kitty is treated poorly, even out of ignorance, this is still problematic and even illegal.
I would contact your vet or a local animal shelter. Surely they have encountered situations like this before and have some useful advise for you.
posted by leopard-skin pill-box hat at 12:21 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
I would contact your vet or a local animal shelter. Surely they have encountered situations like this before and have some useful advise for you.
posted by leopard-skin pill-box hat at 12:21 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
You also can't keep him for practical reasons because of your proximity to the neglectful owners. If your ethics come down on the side of the welfare of the cat over the rights of the owner (ownership in the case of pets requires duty of care - not awards pure dominion over another creature to do as one pleases with it) then you need to re- home kitty with a caring loving family as far away from your place as possible.
Unfortunately I predict if you do this the issue will arise again when the family gets another kitten to replace the one that "ran off".
This is what animal welfare is for surely? If you do this yourself you have no authority.
posted by BAKERSFIELD! at 12:21 AM on April 7, 2014 [7 favorites]
Unfortunately I predict if you do this the issue will arise again when the family gets another kitten to replace the one that "ran off".
This is what animal welfare is for surely? If you do this yourself you have no authority.
posted by BAKERSFIELD! at 12:21 AM on April 7, 2014 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't advise you to just take the cat unless you can prove it's being abused and you have backup from authorities. (Being out in the cold sounds abusive to me, though, so call your local animal control authority to file an abuse report.)
I've taken someone else's cat before in a similar situation... but I had some backing from an authority.
Here in Arizona, summers can get up to 115-120 degrees F (46-48 C). That is no temperature for a pet to be outside.
An apartment complex I lived in specifically banned pet owners from allowing their cats to go outside and roam free. I agree with this policy as I believe cats should be indoor pets at all times, but especially in Phoenix during the summer.
A jackass cat owner put his cat out every morning to roam the complex, claiming that the cat "wanted out" every day and "loved being outside." The manager repeatedly told him that if he did not stop this, the cat would be trapped and taken to a shelter.
Then summer hit. The cat was put outside in the morning (when temperatures are a manageable 90 F). By afternoon, though, we would see the cat doing anything possible to stay cool... hiding in bushes, trying to hide beneath cars.
Eventually we couldn't take it anymore and the cat took to us, and began to follow us home trying to get inside during hot afternoons.
We went to our apartment manager, who gave us her permission to take in the cat. The manager then told the tenant "sorry, your cat must've been trapped by animal control." The tenant did not know us (it was a big complex) and never knew we took in the cat. Curiously enough, once we took her in, she had no interest in going outdoors anymore, and she is still a happy indoor cat today.
I feel your pain but unless you have some authority you can appeal to now, you need to get some backup before just taking someone else's pet... even if they are being rotten and awful pet owners. Side note- stop talking about their poverty as a factor in your favor. Just because someone's poor, it doesn't mean they are not fit for owning a pet.
Especially since they know you have taken the cat before, tread carefully and take this to people in charge of animal welfare.
posted by Old Man McKay at 12:26 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've taken someone else's cat before in a similar situation... but I had some backing from an authority.
Here in Arizona, summers can get up to 115-120 degrees F (46-48 C). That is no temperature for a pet to be outside.
An apartment complex I lived in specifically banned pet owners from allowing their cats to go outside and roam free. I agree with this policy as I believe cats should be indoor pets at all times, but especially in Phoenix during the summer.
A jackass cat owner put his cat out every morning to roam the complex, claiming that the cat "wanted out" every day and "loved being outside." The manager repeatedly told him that if he did not stop this, the cat would be trapped and taken to a shelter.
Then summer hit. The cat was put outside in the morning (when temperatures are a manageable 90 F). By afternoon, though, we would see the cat doing anything possible to stay cool... hiding in bushes, trying to hide beneath cars.
Eventually we couldn't take it anymore and the cat took to us, and began to follow us home trying to get inside during hot afternoons.
We went to our apartment manager, who gave us her permission to take in the cat. The manager then told the tenant "sorry, your cat must've been trapped by animal control." The tenant did not know us (it was a big complex) and never knew we took in the cat. Curiously enough, once we took her in, she had no interest in going outdoors anymore, and she is still a happy indoor cat today.
I feel your pain but unless you have some authority you can appeal to now, you need to get some backup before just taking someone else's pet... even if they are being rotten and awful pet owners. Side note- stop talking about their poverty as a factor in your favor. Just because someone's poor, it doesn't mean they are not fit for owning a pet.
Especially since they know you have taken the cat before, tread carefully and take this to people in charge of animal welfare.
posted by Old Man McKay at 12:26 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
I disagree with some sentiments above, this isn't just a case of thinking you would take better care of him with no evidence to back it up.
Leaving him out in weather such as you describe is extremely dangerous for him and could kill him. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt on that, he appeared underfed. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt on that, cutting a cat's whiskers is damaging and painful and seems hardly forgivable unless the children are extremely young and there was some good reason they were unsupervised long enough with him to be cutting all his hair off.
I am just not sure that alerting authorities is likely to do much to help this cat, although I admit I have no direct experience with trying to alert authorities of animal abuse, perhaps others can speak to its efficacy.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:32 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Leaving him out in weather such as you describe is extremely dangerous for him and could kill him. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt on that, he appeared underfed. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt on that, cutting a cat's whiskers is damaging and painful and seems hardly forgivable unless the children are extremely young and there was some good reason they were unsupervised long enough with him to be cutting all his hair off.
I am just not sure that alerting authorities is likely to do much to help this cat, although I admit I have no direct experience with trying to alert authorities of animal abuse, perhaps others can speak to its efficacy.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 12:32 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, I can rectify the missing photo error immediately.
That's the dog's bed. Like I say, he settled in.
I'm thinking all this stuff myself: especially the 'they'll just get another cat' problem. And they're not setting him on fire, exactly, but he was escaping into -50 weather, consistently. They're not thoughtful owners. And I've returned him twice.
I'm not going to break into their house to retrieve him, but if he gets away from there and comes back I'm not going to give him back: he's voting with his feet. I'm not concerned that they'll call the cops (I think Mom deals, so the cops aren't the big issue: I'm more concerned about brute force, which actually is a troubling thought).
When I had him treated I had him microchipped with my name and address. My vet knew about the situation and figured that I should keep him.
posted by jrochest at 12:33 AM on April 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
That's the dog's bed. Like I say, he settled in.
I'm thinking all this stuff myself: especially the 'they'll just get another cat' problem. And they're not setting him on fire, exactly, but he was escaping into -50 weather, consistently. They're not thoughtful owners. And I've returned him twice.
I'm not going to break into their house to retrieve him, but if he gets away from there and comes back I'm not going to give him back: he's voting with his feet. I'm not concerned that they'll call the cops (I think Mom deals, so the cops aren't the big issue: I'm more concerned about brute force, which actually is a troubling thought).
When I had him treated I had him microchipped with my name and address. My vet knew about the situation and figured that I should keep him.
posted by jrochest at 12:33 AM on April 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Oh, and the poverty isn't a factor in my favour: I agree with you. I suspect it's the reason for the medical neglect, though, and there's a class imbalance thing here that bothers me: it's the feline equivalent of the 60's scoop.
posted by jrochest at 12:35 AM on April 7, 2014
posted by jrochest at 12:35 AM on April 7, 2014
I would have done everything you did, but this is really shaky ground. There are two sides to every story, and there is a difference between neglectful owners and not-great owners. The cat escaped from your neighbour's house too, so him escaping doesn't always equal neglect (although it might mean neglect in this case). Also underweight is subjective too - I'm a vet, and have dealt with people who claim a cat is underweight when it isn't (again, this isn't necessarily the case here) and being unneutered will make a cat skinnier than it would otherwise be. Also being unneuteted would make a cat roam more than it otherwise would.
I agree with posters above saying get your local equavalent of animal control involved.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 12:45 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
I agree with posters above saying get your local equavalent of animal control involved.
posted by peanut butter milkshake at 12:45 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
Why not go and talk to the owner? If you offer her some money and she accepts, you could come home with both the cat and a clear conscience.
posted by Georgina at 1:42 AM on April 7, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Georgina at 1:42 AM on April 7, 2014 [8 favorites]
Don't call control unless you want to risk the family hating you for getting their pet removed. I don't think the whiskers is that big a deal with kids involved - all my much loved childhood cats lost whiskers at one point because we were idiots giving them haircuts we thought. He sounds like a family pet where money is right and the cat comes last.
If and when the cat returns, send him to stay with a friend in a distant neighborhood. Find someone now willing to have you show up with a kitty and then after you've rehoused the cat, be prepared to lie to the neighbours that you don't know where the cat is.
You could offer them cat care books, toys etc if you think they're open to help.
posted by viggorlijah at 1:44 AM on April 7, 2014
If and when the cat returns, send him to stay with a friend in a distant neighborhood. Find someone now willing to have you show up with a kitty and then after you've rehoused the cat, be prepared to lie to the neighbours that you don't know where the cat is.
You could offer them cat care books, toys etc if you think they're open to help.
posted by viggorlijah at 1:44 AM on April 7, 2014
This cat sounds like one that if you let it outside in any capacity it will explore and roam; we've no way of knowing from the information provided if it was stolen or lost. If you plan to claim ownership of it it may be one that you have to keep it indoors to retain control over it. You also said that you've spent money on this animal, which I presume you have records of some kind or another, along with some way to identify the chip in it as being yours. If and when the animal returns and is either lost or is stolen again, and you're able to prove that it's in the previous owners domicile or care, call the police. If the thinly veiled and eluded to statements of poverty and low socioeconomic standing are to be interpreted as I imagine that you intend, then I would seriously doubt the previous owners have documentation of any kind that would allow them to claim the animal as theirs. The police, when given these facts to work with, coupled with the fact that police would be more inclined, I imagine, to side with you than 'aboriginals', could allow you to keep the animal more easily and potentially scare the previous owners away from trying to claim this animal as their's anymore.
This is all contingent on how willing you are to flex your status as, I imagine, a person of the more powerful social and economic class in Canada over those of lesser means. Which matters to you more; the sense of control peoples feel in their lives or the well-being of this animal?
posted by ZaneJ. at 3:03 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is all contingent on how willing you are to flex your status as, I imagine, a person of the more powerful social and economic class in Canada over those of lesser means. Which matters to you more; the sense of control peoples feel in their lives or the well-being of this animal?
posted by ZaneJ. at 3:03 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
As hard as it is, you can't just keep the cat because you can give it a better life. You'd be stealing and you know who really owns it.
It seems like you can't prove neglect and have it removed by animal control authorities.
I think your best best is to contact the owners, tell them you've fallen in love with the cat (don't mention that you've put money into his care because then it looks like a financial investment and not emotional attachment) and it keeps coming back to your house and offer them serious cash to keep it.
It really wasn't cool to microchip it with your name and address.
PS: And if they accept, don't let the damned cat out any more.
posted by kinetic at 3:25 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
It seems like you can't prove neglect and have it removed by animal control authorities.
I think your best best is to contact the owners, tell them you've fallen in love with the cat (don't mention that you've put money into his care because then it looks like a financial investment and not emotional attachment) and it keeps coming back to your house and offer them serious cash to keep it.
It really wasn't cool to microchip it with your name and address.
PS: And if they accept, don't let the damned cat out any more.
posted by kinetic at 3:25 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
It is completely wrong to just TAKE someone's cat. Regardless of the situation.
Either call the authorities, or try to negotiate buying the cat. But do not just TAKE it.
posted by Flood at 4:19 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Either call the authorities, or try to negotiate buying the cat. But do not just TAKE it.
posted by Flood at 4:19 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm wondering if the real issue is that the kids are going to have broken hearts if they don't get to keep their kitty. Is there any way you could "share" ownership of the cat? Maybe let the kids visit with it regularly?
I actaully have a cat here now who moved in with me during recent cold weather. Officially, it still belongs to its original person, but is staying with me for safety. The owner is allowed (invited/encouraged) to visit whenever she wants, but that's not very frequent (however, she's an adult woman who is in medical school and thus very busy). It took about a week and a half for her to come to the realization that this kitty should probably be in another home permanently, and then she gave me permission to look for another home for her.
That owner is a much different pet owner than your neighbors. Still, if you could set up a kind of formal arrangement with the mom where the kids could come visit the kitty, but you take responsibility for the cat and its expenses, maybe (?) it could be a less conflicted situation? I'd recommend presenting this proposal with lots of understanding for the difficulty of their situation, the probably very real attachment the kids (and the mom, too) have for the cat, but maybe hint that you want to prevent more heartbreak for them and you by making sure the cat has a safe warm place to be all the time.
You could also (very delicately) see if they are even aware of the fact that house cats aren't really designed to live outside, and give them a way to get details about this -- but do not make them feel guilty or judged. A hint, some good search keywords, and a mention that there is information about this on the web, could be plenty of information (especially if the kids are the right age). If it seems helpful, you could mention protecting local wildlife _from_ the cat, too.
Thank you so much for stepping up and taking care of this kitty! He looks _so_ happy. My new visitor cat went straight for the pet bed, also.
posted by amtho at 4:20 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
I actaully have a cat here now who moved in with me during recent cold weather. Officially, it still belongs to its original person, but is staying with me for safety. The owner is allowed (invited/encouraged) to visit whenever she wants, but that's not very frequent (however, she's an adult woman who is in medical school and thus very busy). It took about a week and a half for her to come to the realization that this kitty should probably be in another home permanently, and then she gave me permission to look for another home for her.
That owner is a much different pet owner than your neighbors. Still, if you could set up a kind of formal arrangement with the mom where the kids could come visit the kitty, but you take responsibility for the cat and its expenses, maybe (?) it could be a less conflicted situation? I'd recommend presenting this proposal with lots of understanding for the difficulty of their situation, the probably very real attachment the kids (and the mom, too) have for the cat, but maybe hint that you want to prevent more heartbreak for them and you by making sure the cat has a safe warm place to be all the time.
You could also (very delicately) see if they are even aware of the fact that house cats aren't really designed to live outside, and give them a way to get details about this -- but do not make them feel guilty or judged. A hint, some good search keywords, and a mention that there is information about this on the web, could be plenty of information (especially if the kids are the right age). If it seems helpful, you could mention protecting local wildlife _from_ the cat, too.
Thank you so much for stepping up and taking care of this kitty! He looks _so_ happy. My new visitor cat went straight for the pet bed, also.
posted by amtho at 4:20 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
PS - If you do encourage the kids to visit, maybe make it clear that they still must always call first to arrange a visit -- even though the cat is staying with you, cats and people are only welcome in your house when they have an invitation. They're kids, so they can make up strange rules on their own sometimes :)
posted by amtho at 4:23 AM on April 7, 2014
posted by amtho at 4:23 AM on April 7, 2014
I don't know about Canada, but in the US, animals are just property, and you can't take someone else's pet. There's a standard of neglect or abuse where authorities can take the animal, this probably doesn't meet it. the building was known for abuse and neglect does not have validity - it may or may not be accurate about the building or about specific tenants in the building.
See if you can get some cat care material, maybe a video. I think I would talk to the owner and try to talk to the kids, provide cat care material, talk about the cat needing shelter in sub-zero weather, and pretty much tell them that if the cat is not well cared for and comes to you again, you may help find the cat a new home or keep it yourself. Ownership is one thing, but owning a pet has a moral requirement of caring for it, especially in bitter cold, and giving it health care and neutering.
posted by theora55 at 4:27 AM on April 7, 2014
See if you can get some cat care material, maybe a video. I think I would talk to the owner and try to talk to the kids, provide cat care material, talk about the cat needing shelter in sub-zero weather, and pretty much tell them that if the cat is not well cared for and comes to you again, you may help find the cat a new home or keep it yourself. Ownership is one thing, but owning a pet has a moral requirement of caring for it, especially in bitter cold, and giving it health care and neutering.
posted by theora55 at 4:27 AM on April 7, 2014
I'd agree with kinetic that you should tell them you love this cat and that he just keeps coming back, and offer them some cash. (Cry if you have to. Don't let your pride get in the way!) If they say no, and the cat gets out again? Find him a new home, and if they come around asking say you have no idea and he must have gotten run over or something. Let them feel a little guilt and worry over it, because maybe that will inspire them to take better care of their damn cat next time. (I apologize if that sounds classist or condescending or whatever, but where the welfare of kitties is concerned my p.c. lefty side goes right out the freakin' window.)
A story:
Years ago I adopted a cat who was owned by a gigantic scary man at the end of the block. He was not caring for the cat well, at all, and the cat kept coming around to our place for food and love. The guy resented us for it and the situation finally blew up when the cat got badly hurt in a fight. We thought the guy would want to handle it, the cat still being technically "his" and all, so I took Catso over there and this drunk, giant dude got in my face and threatened me. He told me to stay away from his cat, and went full psycho on me. It was horrible, both terrifying and infuriating, but I just kept quiet and walked out. I got out of there without getting into a fight or getting beaten up, and then I went home and wrote up a long, pleading letter and left it in the guy's mailbox. I poured my heart out, because this cat was so awesome and the idea of him ending up hurt on the street again was killing me. I truly wanted what was best for the cat, and I felt like that was for him to come live with us.
The next day the guy sobered up and he came over and gave us the cat. It was all really weird and I actually ended up feeling kind of sorry for the guy. Sure, mostly I hated his guts, but I also felt bad for him losing his cat. I guess he must have thought he'd been taking care of Catso fine, you know? It had to be a hell of thing to raise a cat and love him, and then see him decide to go live with somebody else.
But I didn't agonize over it. Catso was where he he belonged, and that was what mattered.
Catso passed away a couple of weeks ago, at approximately age 17. He was absolutely fantastic, and more than worth almost getting socked in the jaw for. I'd gladly take a sock in the jaw now, just to have him back.
Talk to these people. Do whatever you can to find this cat a good home. You may have to eat some shit, you may have to offend these people or break their hearts a little. But they have proven that whatever their best intentions, they are not a good family for this cat.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:47 AM on April 7, 2014 [14 favorites]
A story:
Years ago I adopted a cat who was owned by a gigantic scary man at the end of the block. He was not caring for the cat well, at all, and the cat kept coming around to our place for food and love. The guy resented us for it and the situation finally blew up when the cat got badly hurt in a fight. We thought the guy would want to handle it, the cat still being technically "his" and all, so I took Catso over there and this drunk, giant dude got in my face and threatened me. He told me to stay away from his cat, and went full psycho on me. It was horrible, both terrifying and infuriating, but I just kept quiet and walked out. I got out of there without getting into a fight or getting beaten up, and then I went home and wrote up a long, pleading letter and left it in the guy's mailbox. I poured my heart out, because this cat was so awesome and the idea of him ending up hurt on the street again was killing me. I truly wanted what was best for the cat, and I felt like that was for him to come live with us.
The next day the guy sobered up and he came over and gave us the cat. It was all really weird and I actually ended up feeling kind of sorry for the guy. Sure, mostly I hated his guts, but I also felt bad for him losing his cat. I guess he must have thought he'd been taking care of Catso fine, you know? It had to be a hell of thing to raise a cat and love him, and then see him decide to go live with somebody else.
But I didn't agonize over it. Catso was where he he belonged, and that was what mattered.
Catso passed away a couple of weeks ago, at approximately age 17. He was absolutely fantastic, and more than worth almost getting socked in the jaw for. I'd gladly take a sock in the jaw now, just to have him back.
Talk to these people. Do whatever you can to find this cat a good home. You may have to eat some shit, you may have to offend these people or break their hearts a little. But they have proven that whatever their best intentions, they are not a good family for this cat.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:47 AM on April 7, 2014 [14 favorites]
You aren't having 'a battle of ownership'. You don't own the cat.
Whether you should keep the cat is a different matter. But, make no mistake, it will be theft.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:56 AM on April 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
Whether you should keep the cat is a different matter. But, make no mistake, it will be theft.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:56 AM on April 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
I think it matters a lot that children are involved in this situation! The class issue is also a big deal. I think you are right that this cat doesn't have its shots etc. for financial reasons, not because its family doesn't care about it.
Could you suggest sharing the cat? Since you live across the street from the family, and it sounds like this cat is a strong-willed escape artist who is going to go where he wants to go anyway, maybe making the arrangement that already exists formal would work. This could keep the cat safe, without meaning that the children have totally lost their pet (since presumably he would sometimes live at their house). In my ideal world, you would be willing to have the kids visit their/your cat sometimes, and in fact you might be able to share some knowledge about animal care with them (by example, and without EVER saying "your mom is doing this wrong"). The cat could spend more time with you in the winter. Obviously this takes a greater commitment on your part than just taking the cat, but I think that if you are going to take this family's pet, you do have some kind of obligation to them, too, and not really a financial one. The kids will not care about the money if you pay for the cat; their cat will still be gone.
I think it's great that you are considering this situation carefully. Reading it from the outside, I really feel like some social issues are very important--the "reputation for animal abuse/neglect", for example, reads like racism is involved to me. I see the needs of children/family to be more important than (or at very least equally important as) the needs of the cat in finding a solution here, and I hope you'll be able to find a solution that's ok for everyone.
posted by snorkmaiden at 5:42 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Could you suggest sharing the cat? Since you live across the street from the family, and it sounds like this cat is a strong-willed escape artist who is going to go where he wants to go anyway, maybe making the arrangement that already exists formal would work. This could keep the cat safe, without meaning that the children have totally lost their pet (since presumably he would sometimes live at their house). In my ideal world, you would be willing to have the kids visit their/your cat sometimes, and in fact you might be able to share some knowledge about animal care with them (by example, and without EVER saying "your mom is doing this wrong"). The cat could spend more time with you in the winter. Obviously this takes a greater commitment on your part than just taking the cat, but I think that if you are going to take this family's pet, you do have some kind of obligation to them, too, and not really a financial one. The kids will not care about the money if you pay for the cat; their cat will still be gone.
I think it's great that you are considering this situation carefully. Reading it from the outside, I really feel like some social issues are very important--the "reputation for animal abuse/neglect", for example, reads like racism is involved to me. I see the needs of children/family to be more important than (or at very least equally important as) the needs of the cat in finding a solution here, and I hope you'll be able to find a solution that's ok for everyone.
posted by snorkmaiden at 5:42 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
aboriginal
What is the relevance of this fact? You are alluding to something, but I don't know what it is?
posted by Houstonian at 5:51 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
What is the relevance of this fact? You are alluding to something, but I don't know what it is?
posted by Houstonian at 5:51 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
in the US, animals are just property, and you can't take someone else's pet
To all the sentiments along these lines, I disagree unless one of the following is true: 1-There will be consequences for taking the cat, or 2-It is morally wrong to take the cat. I'm really, really skeptical of 1, and 2 is borderline absurd given the circumstances.
My vote is to steal that kitty.
posted by deadweightloss at 5:52 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
To all the sentiments along these lines, I disagree unless one of the following is true: 1-There will be consequences for taking the cat, or 2-It is morally wrong to take the cat. I'm really, really skeptical of 1, and 2 is borderline absurd given the circumstances.
My vote is to steal that kitty.
posted by deadweightloss at 5:52 AM on April 7, 2014 [4 favorites]
Sorry, but "kids and parents really want the cat back" does not mean "kids are not neglecting or abusing the cat" (which was the case with our neighbours -- not a poverty thing, they are very, very wealthy).
If the cat comes back, just let him come in (don't let him out again) and wait and see what the family does.
posted by jeather at 5:53 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
If the cat comes back, just let him come in (don't let him out again) and wait and see what the family does.
posted by jeather at 5:53 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
To all the sentiments along these lines, I disagree unless one of the following is true: 1-There will be consequences for taking the cat, or 2-It is morally wrong to take the cat. I'm really, really skeptical of 1, and 2 is borderline absurd given the circumstances.
The rightness or wrongness of an act has very little to do with the potential consequences.
If the owner of the cat is asking for the cat back, you should give it to them. To do otherwise is theft, as has already been explained. Pets are property.
posted by DWRoelands at 6:05 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The rightness or wrongness of an act has very little to do with the potential consequences.
If the owner of the cat is asking for the cat back, you should give it to them. To do otherwise is theft, as has already been explained. Pets are property.
posted by DWRoelands at 6:05 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Seems like AskMe is very divided on their responses here. For what's it worth, I side with those who say that this isn't your cat to keep. It belongs to its owners. If you have evidence or a suspicion the cat is being mistreated, that's for Animal Control or the police to handle.
posted by whitewall at 6:14 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by whitewall at 6:14 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The rightness or wrongness of an act has very little to do with the potential consequences.
If the owner of the cat is asking for the cat back, you should give it to them. To do otherwise is theft, as has already been explained. Pets are property.
It's apodictic that theft is not necessarily wrong. I acknowledge that it is theft, and strongly encourage this particular theft.
posted by deadweightloss at 7:13 AM on April 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
If the owner of the cat is asking for the cat back, you should give it to them. To do otherwise is theft, as has already been explained. Pets are property.
It's apodictic that theft is not necessarily wrong. I acknowledge that it is theft, and strongly encourage this particular theft.
posted by deadweightloss at 7:13 AM on April 7, 2014 [5 favorites]
I would suggest putting together a care package for the cat - some food, a few cat toys. Get some cat care pamphlets or tips from your vet - such as "don't let cats outside in below-freezing temps, always provide a clean litter box, etc." Give him back to the family with all of this. Maybe they just plain don't know how to care for a cat and need some help figuring it out.
But here's a hypothetical for you - if you found a stray cat hanging around outside in extremely cold weather, put up signs around the neighborhood, and received no responses in two weeks, would it feel like stealing if you kept the cat? I suspect not, and that's essentially what happened here, except there was last-minute contact.
People take in strays all the time - and if they aren't chipped there's usually no way to find their original owners. This is not stealing.
My suggestion is give him back, but let them know that you plan to permanently adopt any stray cats you find hanging around your house, no questions asked. If they neglect him again and put him out or leave him out and he shows up at your place, keep him then.
posted by trivia genius at 8:08 AM on April 7, 2014
But here's a hypothetical for you - if you found a stray cat hanging around outside in extremely cold weather, put up signs around the neighborhood, and received no responses in two weeks, would it feel like stealing if you kept the cat? I suspect not, and that's essentially what happened here, except there was last-minute contact.
People take in strays all the time - and if they aren't chipped there's usually no way to find their original owners. This is not stealing.
My suggestion is give him back, but let them know that you plan to permanently adopt any stray cats you find hanging around your house, no questions asked. If they neglect him again and put him out or leave him out and he shows up at your place, keep him then.
posted by trivia genius at 8:08 AM on April 7, 2014
it's your cat now, you have more invested in him than the other family, and the critical microchip token of ownership. these people are demonstrably unfit to have a cat. you can't be blamed for initially speaking to them from a position of conciliation, but since that obviously isn't working, it's time to speak to them from a position of power. the next time this woman calls you, set explicit boundaries, and explicit consequences for transgressing them.
look at it from the cat's point of view. there are two sides in the comment thread, and if the cat had a mefi account, which side would he be on?
you gave them not merely generous, but extravagant opportunity to change, and they struck out. it's one, two, three strikes and you're out in this here ballgame.
my own cat is on my lap, thrashing her bobtail in my face as i type this. she's on your side too.
posted by bruce at 8:22 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
look at it from the cat's point of view. there are two sides in the comment thread, and if the cat had a mefi account, which side would he be on?
you gave them not merely generous, but extravagant opportunity to change, and they struck out. it's one, two, three strikes and you're out in this here ballgame.
my own cat is on my lap, thrashing her bobtail in my face as i type this. she's on your side too.
posted by bruce at 8:22 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
It feels like the original poster is being directly or indirectly accused of racism, and I thought I'd add that it doesn't seem that way to me. To me it reads as if he or she is sensitive to the fact that cultural differences and norms (and accompanying historical background, and resulting socioeconomic class, and place/power within society) can cause some difference in what kind of behavior is seen as acceptable, what behavior is possible or practical, and what is normal within a community.
For instance (dodging the temperature issue for the moment), from what I can tell from my British friends, it is entirely normal and encouraged for cats to be indoor/outdoor; to prevent a cat from going outside at all is seen as a little controlling and cruel, like you're keeping it in jail. Cats are generally allowed outside during the day if they choose and come back on their own for food and a warm bed; they're seen as smart and capable enough to defend themselves and handle it. My American friends, on the other hand, are generally strong advocates for indoor-only (or indoor-mostly, with brief supervised periods out of doors) cathood, citing the hazards of cars and wild animals, and the life-expectancy rates of outdoor cats. Letting your cat go outside on its own, especially overnight, is actively seen as abusive by many of the people in my area (including the Brits, once they've been here awhile), because we have a significant wild coyote population, who will eat cats and small dogs. Coyotes aside, I'm not sure either is wrong, it's just different norms in different areas and different attitudes toward the question.
I think race/culture/class was a relevant fact to include, and (despite the absence of explicit specific information from their point of view, etc.) makes me look somewhat more sympathetically upon their not behaving as I would expect someone of the original poster's (presumed, not stated...but maybe that's the statement) background to. Fact is, different cultures (including people with different amount of money) have different attitudes toward pet ownership, for various reasons. I get the feeling the OP is trying to take that into account and has included that fact in order to fairly give the full picture.
...But as in the coyote case, sometimes the facts--or laws--of a particular place clear out cultural differences like that. Your area is very cold, and probably has some animal welfare guidelines about whether you can let your animals outside, if they have to be neutered, etc. I think you're a good person to have taken him in, and you were a good person to have given him back. I think if I were you, I'd try one more time to establish a rapport with the family, and probably give him back with some sort of ultimatum that you believe the current state of things to be harmful to the cat's well-being, and that you hope they can understand and agree. You can state that you plan to keep him if you see him out in the cold again, or if you like, you can ask for some sort of visitation/sharing arrangement, either for you or for the kids. As you said, it's awkward when you live right next to each other. On the plus side, this makes sharing easier.
Or, you know, not. Most of the posters on this thread won't blame you (I think you've been quite fair), although you might feel bad when you see the kids.
posted by spelunkingplato at 8:28 AM on April 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
For instance (dodging the temperature issue for the moment), from what I can tell from my British friends, it is entirely normal and encouraged for cats to be indoor/outdoor; to prevent a cat from going outside at all is seen as a little controlling and cruel, like you're keeping it in jail. Cats are generally allowed outside during the day if they choose and come back on their own for food and a warm bed; they're seen as smart and capable enough to defend themselves and handle it. My American friends, on the other hand, are generally strong advocates for indoor-only (or indoor-mostly, with brief supervised periods out of doors) cathood, citing the hazards of cars and wild animals, and the life-expectancy rates of outdoor cats. Letting your cat go outside on its own, especially overnight, is actively seen as abusive by many of the people in my area (including the Brits, once they've been here awhile), because we have a significant wild coyote population, who will eat cats and small dogs. Coyotes aside, I'm not sure either is wrong, it's just different norms in different areas and different attitudes toward the question.
I think race/culture/class was a relevant fact to include, and (despite the absence of explicit specific information from their point of view, etc.) makes me look somewhat more sympathetically upon their not behaving as I would expect someone of the original poster's (presumed, not stated...but maybe that's the statement) background to. Fact is, different cultures (including people with different amount of money) have different attitudes toward pet ownership, for various reasons. I get the feeling the OP is trying to take that into account and has included that fact in order to fairly give the full picture.
...But as in the coyote case, sometimes the facts--or laws--of a particular place clear out cultural differences like that. Your area is very cold, and probably has some animal welfare guidelines about whether you can let your animals outside, if they have to be neutered, etc. I think you're a good person to have taken him in, and you were a good person to have given him back. I think if I were you, I'd try one more time to establish a rapport with the family, and probably give him back with some sort of ultimatum that you believe the current state of things to be harmful to the cat's well-being, and that you hope they can understand and agree. You can state that you plan to keep him if you see him out in the cold again, or if you like, you can ask for some sort of visitation/sharing arrangement, either for you or for the kids. As you said, it's awkward when you live right next to each other. On the plus side, this makes sharing easier.
Or, you know, not. Most of the posters on this thread won't blame you (I think you've been quite fair), although you might feel bad when you see the kids.
posted by spelunkingplato at 8:28 AM on April 7, 2014 [6 favorites]
> from what I can tell from my British friends, it is entirely normal and encouraged for cats to be indoor/outdoor; to prevent a cat from going outside at all is seen as a little controlling and cruel
The poster is not British.
posted by languagehat at 8:46 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The poster is not British.
posted by languagehat at 8:46 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
You've gone above and beyond your due diligence on trying to let them have "their" cat. I'm not seeing a racist angle here? Or any ownership claims from the other family period? They at best abandoned it (screw people who leave animals outside at those temps or let their outdoor animals breed indiscriminately/ be set up for fights by not neutering) and at worst are negligent or abusive like people in your neighborhood have claimed. They also have no case of ownership since you have a paper trail of vet work and the animal is microchipped to you. If it even came down to a legal battle, which it probably won't, everything is in your favor and you could even call character witnesses (neighbors) to your side.
I wouldn't hesitate in keeping this cat, but I also wouldn't let it back outside since I'm a firmly indoor-only proponent. They can obviously just capture it again and then the question of ownership is pretty moot.
For people who are saying this is theft because animals are property? You're right that pets are considered property under the law, but just as anyone can legally pick through my trash and take what they want when I set it on the curb, an untagged "stray" cat that won't even go back to that family for food/water/shelter is NOT their property. The law is on the poster's side.
posted by rawralphadawg at 8:59 AM on April 7, 2014
I wouldn't hesitate in keeping this cat, but I also wouldn't let it back outside since I'm a firmly indoor-only proponent. They can obviously just capture it again and then the question of ownership is pretty moot.
For people who are saying this is theft because animals are property? You're right that pets are considered property under the law, but just as anyone can legally pick through my trash and take what they want when I set it on the curb, an untagged "stray" cat that won't even go back to that family for food/water/shelter is NOT their property. The law is on the poster's side.
posted by rawralphadawg at 8:59 AM on April 7, 2014
I'm in the minority here and think you have to give the cat back.
It's not OK for people to just decide "hey you know I could provide a better home for this cat" and steal other people's animals.
It's very likely that the cat is getting out, not that the cat is being let out. Especially if there are young children in the household.
It's hanging around your house because it's not stupid -- food comes from your house. Cats are happy to chill at any old place where they think food might happen. There's a cat in my neighborhood who has at least two "homes" where kind people who think they're helping strays feed him.
While it sucks for a cat to have to put up with small children who don't entirely understand how to treat animals, that's not abuse and cats shouldn't be stolen from people because they have small children, as a matter of course.
I disagree with it, but a lot of people choose not to neuter their pets and that's their own business, not grounds to have their pet stolen.
posted by Sara C. at 9:01 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's not OK for people to just decide "hey you know I could provide a better home for this cat" and steal other people's animals.
It's very likely that the cat is getting out, not that the cat is being let out. Especially if there are young children in the household.
It's hanging around your house because it's not stupid -- food comes from your house. Cats are happy to chill at any old place where they think food might happen. There's a cat in my neighborhood who has at least two "homes" where kind people who think they're helping strays feed him.
While it sucks for a cat to have to put up with small children who don't entirely understand how to treat animals, that's not abuse and cats shouldn't be stolen from people because they have small children, as a matter of course.
I disagree with it, but a lot of people choose not to neuter their pets and that's their own business, not grounds to have their pet stolen.
posted by Sara C. at 9:01 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The law is on the poster's side.
The law is absolutely not on your side if you knowingly steal someone's family pet, whether it's tagged or not. The only legal thing you can do is report it to the authorities.
Whether you should steal the cat or not is another question (I think it would be unethical, unless the animal is actually in distress - lots of cats do fine even at very cold temperatures as long as they have somewhere to shelter), but make no mistake, it is stealing and it is illegal.
If you're really worried about the cat and the authorities say it isn't abuse, you could set up a shelter for it in your yard or even let it inside your house temporarily sometimes to warm up, as an alternative to stealing their pet.
posted by randomnity at 9:06 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The law is absolutely not on your side if you knowingly steal someone's family pet, whether it's tagged or not. The only legal thing you can do is report it to the authorities.
Whether you should steal the cat or not is another question (I think it would be unethical, unless the animal is actually in distress - lots of cats do fine even at very cold temperatures as long as they have somewhere to shelter), but make no mistake, it is stealing and it is illegal.
If you're really worried about the cat and the authorities say it isn't abuse, you could set up a shelter for it in your yard or even let it inside your house temporarily sometimes to warm up, as an alternative to stealing their pet.
posted by randomnity at 9:06 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Huh, I somehow missed that you already got the cat microchipped and neutered, so to answer your question of At what point does rescue become theft?, it was then.
If you think the animal is being mistreated, you need to contact the authorities not just for this cat, but for future pets owned by this family. If you're worried that animal rescue organizations who do this for a living won't agree that it's abuse, that's a sign you may be rationalizing "theft" into "rescue".
posted by randomnity at 9:22 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you think the animal is being mistreated, you need to contact the authorities not just for this cat, but for future pets owned by this family. If you're worried that animal rescue organizations who do this for a living won't agree that it's abuse, that's a sign you may be rationalizing "theft" into "rescue".
posted by randomnity at 9:22 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
He's an outdoor cat. He chose to wander away from his original owners, then wander away from the second people that took him in and then wander away from you when you tried to keep him. He is clearly a wanderer. It isn't your right to decide to make someone else's outdoor cat your indoor cat (and I can't stand outdoor cats). You assume when he left you that "the kids from the family have grabbed him back" but that he didn't like his owners because "he hadn't gone back there voluntarily" (while being held indoors by several different people for over a month!). The owner even called you, asking for him back when she saw him at your window - so it isn't like she has no interest in her cat. Sorry, but you tried to steal someone's cat, no matter how you whitewash it. Change the microchip info to the owners info and enjoy the cat when he comes to visit but let him leave to go home.
posted by saucysault at 9:39 AM on April 7, 2014
posted by saucysault at 9:39 AM on April 7, 2014
Stealing is a crime, and so is animal mistreatment. But the legal issues are vastly outweighed by emotional, moral, and social issues -- and, I hope, this situation can stay outside of legal venues where the latter issues would be less relevant. The law is important, but its main import is after other human solutions have been exhausted. Legal arguments need to be a last resort after other ways are exhausted. No need to give up on those yet.
posted by amtho at 9:43 AM on April 7, 2014
posted by amtho at 9:43 AM on April 7, 2014
feral cats belong to nobody. when you adopt a cat, a critical part of reducing this relationship to a valid property claim is domesticating the cat to your household. this means taking it to the vet to make sure it's all fixed up and in good condition, and providing food, water, shelter and affection so the cat comes to see you as its human.
the first family failed to do this, and so failed to establish any property right. they failed so dramatically, the OP was pestered with phone calls on his vacation. the OP did not steal this cat, he rescued him from the streets, and seems to be duly performing the acts of domestication. the OP assumed responsibility.
with responsibility comes authority. i appreciate all the neighborhood diplomats above, but when, as now, the diplomatic options have failed, it's time to revert to the dictatorial option.
posted by bruce at 9:51 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
the first family failed to do this, and so failed to establish any property right. they failed so dramatically, the OP was pestered with phone calls on his vacation. the OP did not steal this cat, he rescued him from the streets, and seems to be duly performing the acts of domestication. the OP assumed responsibility.
with responsibility comes authority. i appreciate all the neighborhood diplomats above, but when, as now, the diplomatic options have failed, it's time to revert to the dictatorial option.
posted by bruce at 9:51 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Your moral obligation isn't to the other family; your moral obligation is to the cat. The cat is being neglected, underfed, put out into the cold, and shaved(?!?). As I see it, your moral obligation to the cat requires that you either keep it or find it a good home. To give it back to people who cause it to suffer would be morally wrong.
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:09 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:09 AM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
If it's an outdoor cat, can you ask to share it at least part of the time? That way when it's outside in the cold, it'll know where it can go to get warm. You can feed it and take it to the vet as needed. We used to let other peoples' cats in the house all the time when I was a kid and as far as I know, no one cared. Seems like it would keep everyone happy in this situation.
posted by Jess the Mess at 10:20 AM on April 7, 2014
posted by Jess the Mess at 10:20 AM on April 7, 2014
privileges and oppressions intersect; you've got the rights of a cat, a sentient creature that is a piece of chattel property, and the rights of a poor, disadvantaged and discriminated against family. Trying to balance them ethically is an individual decision that takes your own values and beliefs into account.
There are many right answers. For me, the rights of the cat, who cannot advocate for himself, take precedence; but I would be sensitive to the family, using compensation rather than coercion, and negotiating rather than demanding. I would be less comfortable using the authorities on a family likely to become entrapped in the justice system, and statistically less likely to get justice in general. It is a vexatious situation and I commend you for your empathy and sensitivity.
posted by Mistress at 10:21 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
There are many right answers. For me, the rights of the cat, who cannot advocate for himself, take precedence; but I would be sensitive to the family, using compensation rather than coercion, and negotiating rather than demanding. I would be less comfortable using the authorities on a family likely to become entrapped in the justice system, and statistically less likely to get justice in general. It is a vexatious situation and I commend you for your empathy and sensitivity.
posted by Mistress at 10:21 AM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Talk to the woman, express your concerns for the cat, tell her you have gathered letters (and do it) from other concerned neighbors, and that you have no choice but to report her to animal control. Then gently offer to buy her cat from her. You can do all this and still be on her and the cat's side, so both of you see it as a win. If she says yes, great. If not start reporting her to animal control, because the kitty needs you to do that for her.
posted by Vaike at 10:47 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Vaike at 10:47 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think there is a reasonable animal rescue that would consider what the OP has described as abuse. The cut whiskers happened once and there is no proof that happened in the care of the original owner, nor the one-time shaved tail, skinny is normal for kitty's that have not been neutered, and outdoor cats get into fights all the time. There is no proof the cat did not have shots. She told the owner to get it neutered right after Christmas and for some reason expects the owner to have done that within the month (part of which the cat was being held at other people's houses) as though a mother with children has no other obligations. I don't like outdoor cats but there is no law against them in her area, nor is it considered abusive to let a cat out to wander. The second person who "rescued" the cat also lost it into the biter cold, but her actions are portrayed as noble. At worse, the owner may be violating a name tag by-law. I think harassing the owner and stirring up a mob mentality against a poor aboriginal women (with all the racism and classism that entails and that some people in her neighbourhood share) who just wants her cat back (and doesn't have the option of calling the police to enforce her rights the way you can) would be very poor behaviour. The cat hasn't avoided going home, it has been forcibly held against its will and its owner's wishes.
posted by saucysault at 11:22 AM on April 7, 2014
posted by saucysault at 11:22 AM on April 7, 2014
I think it's important to point out that the temperatures the OP is referring to are temperatures that can kill a cat left outdoors. Friends of mine have found cats frozen to death at -35 C. Our local SPCA says outdoor animals need to be brought in at temps far above these. I'd argue leaving a cat outside at -50 C, which by the way is the equivalent of -58 F, is animal abuse.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:44 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 11:44 AM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'm really not threadsitting: but the 'this isn't neglect' problem is a problem.
Yes, cats go outside, and mine do too. But the temperatures he was out in (at night) were potentially damaging and mine don't go out in them; I found him on the street at 11 PM in -50; my neighbors took him in because he was out at night in similar temperatures; the two other people who took him in did so because he was out at midnight at -45 and the other because he'd been wounded in a fight. And I talked to my vet about this over the course of two visits. Yes, it was evil of me to get him spayed, but that's why he was wandering and fighting. He's healthier and safer spayed than not, and he's had his shots now. I refuse to apologize for that!
He's back with his original family now, and if he stays there that's just fine: he's happy and his needs are being met. It's just that if he shows up on my doorstep again, I've got to decide what to do.
posted by jrochest at 12:22 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yes, cats go outside, and mine do too. But the temperatures he was out in (at night) were potentially damaging and mine don't go out in them; I found him on the street at 11 PM in -50; my neighbors took him in because he was out at night in similar temperatures; the two other people who took him in did so because he was out at midnight at -45 and the other because he'd been wounded in a fight. And I talked to my vet about this over the course of two visits. Yes, it was evil of me to get him spayed, but that's why he was wandering and fighting. He's healthier and safer spayed than not, and he's had his shots now. I refuse to apologize for that!
He's back with his original family now, and if he stays there that's just fine: he's happy and his needs are being met. It's just that if he shows up on my doorstep again, I've got to decide what to do.
posted by jrochest at 12:22 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
No, you don't.
If he shows up at 11PM and it's -50 out, let him in for the night, sure, whatever. Then let him back out in the morning.
If he shows up at 3PM and its 60 and sunny, that has no bearing on anything. Cats do that. It might be different if this were a dog, but outdoor cats have their particular haunts. On any given day there are two or three random neighborhood cats hanging out in my yard, and I have never even remotely considered that I now own them. They probably caught a sparrow there once or something.
posted by Sara C. at 12:51 PM on April 7, 2014 [7 favorites]
If he shows up at 11PM and it's -50 out, let him in for the night, sure, whatever. Then let him back out in the morning.
If he shows up at 3PM and its 60 and sunny, that has no bearing on anything. Cats do that. It might be different if this were a dog, but outdoor cats have their particular haunts. On any given day there are two or three random neighborhood cats hanging out in my yard, and I have never even remotely considered that I now own them. They probably caught a sparrow there once or something.
posted by Sara C. at 12:51 PM on April 7, 2014 [7 favorites]
This is a really hard situation-- I empathize with your feelings. However, as someone who volunteers regularly with an animal rescue organization, the laws are generally pretty clear. Where I am (North Carolina), we are required by law to advertise for at least three days after finding an animal, and if after ten days from the last day the advertisement was posted no one has claimed the animal, you can legally assume custody. I'm not sure what the laws are like where you are, but I would learn them thoroughly.
Morally, it's a gray area. As you've seen, many people have come down on completely opposite sides in this debate. However, I would say you've already done a great deal to help this family and their cat-- neutering (the correct term if it's a male cat, FYI), is an absolute MUST, so it was not "evil" of you in any fashion. This world does not need more kittens, it will improve his temper, and make him an easier pet to care for (intact toms spray like crazy). If the family could not afford this, you did them a real service, as you did with getting it shots. I guess I would suggest trying to maintain good relations with them as much as possible--you could consider trying to convince them to give the cat to you, as one poster above did with a letter, but it sounds like they want to keep their pet. That's not to say that you can't continue to care for it when you see it is in need, if you want to, unless they strongly object. Many places have "community cats" like this. I would say taking the step of confining him indoors in direct opposition to this family's wishes would only make the situation worse. If you do see future abuse or neglect (cutting whiskers totally qualifies), file a report.
Good luck--it's a plight with which many animal activists and lovers are familiar, but hopefully this situation can be improved with friendship and education, as well as your generous continued time and care.
posted by heathenduchess at 1:07 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Morally, it's a gray area. As you've seen, many people have come down on completely opposite sides in this debate. However, I would say you've already done a great deal to help this family and their cat-- neutering (the correct term if it's a male cat, FYI), is an absolute MUST, so it was not "evil" of you in any fashion. This world does not need more kittens, it will improve his temper, and make him an easier pet to care for (intact toms spray like crazy). If the family could not afford this, you did them a real service, as you did with getting it shots. I guess I would suggest trying to maintain good relations with them as much as possible--you could consider trying to convince them to give the cat to you, as one poster above did with a letter, but it sounds like they want to keep their pet. That's not to say that you can't continue to care for it when you see it is in need, if you want to, unless they strongly object. Many places have "community cats" like this. I would say taking the step of confining him indoors in direct opposition to this family's wishes would only make the situation worse. If you do see future abuse or neglect (cutting whiskers totally qualifies), file a report.
Good luck--it's a plight with which many animal activists and lovers are familiar, but hopefully this situation can be improved with friendship and education, as well as your generous continued time and care.
posted by heathenduchess at 1:07 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Please do not take this cat. I understand you have grown attached to it. At the same time, it would be incredibly more tactful to report the situation to the proper authorities so the cat can get a more suitable home. This whole situation has developed an unfortunate aura of privilege and un-neighborly behavior.
When you first took him to the vet, that made sense because you had no idea who his owners were and for all you knew, he was a runaway. The second time you took him to the vet is a little less admirable. You already knew who he belonged to and you didn't even bother to ask permission to get surgery done on their cat. Your vet also has only heard your side of the story.
Beyond that, you can't know for sure that the cat doesn't return to his home willingly unless you have some sort of tracking device on him.
Your house may be flowing with fancy feast. That said, it is wrong and considerably unkind of you to steal this animal from its family even though you feel you would provide it capital care. Imagine if your cat wandered off to a millionaire's house who fed their cats a raw diet and decided your cat was better off there. If your main goal is getting this cat out of perceived danger, coordinate with a rescue organization in your area.
There are so many other rescue-able cats out there who would fit in well with you and your family.
posted by donut_princess at 4:14 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
When you first took him to the vet, that made sense because you had no idea who his owners were and for all you knew, he was a runaway. The second time you took him to the vet is a little less admirable. You already knew who he belonged to and you didn't even bother to ask permission to get surgery done on their cat. Your vet also has only heard your side of the story.
Beyond that, you can't know for sure that the cat doesn't return to his home willingly unless you have some sort of tracking device on him.
Your house may be flowing with fancy feast. That said, it is wrong and considerably unkind of you to steal this animal from its family even though you feel you would provide it capital care. Imagine if your cat wandered off to a millionaire's house who fed their cats a raw diet and decided your cat was better off there. If your main goal is getting this cat out of perceived danger, coordinate with a rescue organization in your area.
There are so many other rescue-able cats out there who would fit in well with you and your family.
posted by donut_princess at 4:14 PM on April 7, 2014 [3 favorites]
Languagehat: I know. They're not American, either. I was trying to make a comparison of differing cultural attitudes toward pet-ownership which was not as racially charged as the comparison in the question. In my experience, there is not as large a class divide between a well-off American and a well-off Brit; and yet, the normal way of treating cats is different.
There is a huge divide between a Canadian of the majority class (?) and a poor aboriginal. It's not surprising that what they see as normal and humane ways to treat cats may be different, too, but it doesn't necessarily, on its own, mean that one is wrong.
When you get into the animal welfare laws of the specific area, that may be different.
posted by spelunkingplato at 5:29 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
There is a huge divide between a Canadian of the majority class (?) and a poor aboriginal. It's not surprising that what they see as normal and humane ways to treat cats may be different, too, but it doesn't necessarily, on its own, mean that one is wrong.
When you get into the animal welfare laws of the specific area, that may be different.
posted by spelunkingplato at 5:29 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Folks we pretty much need to stay in "constructive answers to the original question" territory here from this point forward, thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:28 PM on April 7, 2014
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:28 PM on April 7, 2014
It will not be doing this cat any good if he ends stuck with this family because the OP doesn't want to cause upset to the kids, or is worried about privilege or something. (At this point that word needs its own Godwin's Law.) The fact is, these folks are not doing a good job taking care of their cat. The kids could end up sad for a while if they lose the cat, but if they keep the cat, the cat could quite probably end up dead soon.
Don't call animal control. In a perfect world that might resolve this, but in the real world the only thing you can be sure that will do is make this family despise you. It will complicate the hell out of everything. My original suggestions involved trying to reason with the family, and if that failed waiting until the cat got out yet again and then spiriting him away to a new home. The only heartbreak you'd be subjecting these kids to is whatever they're bound to feel eventually when their cat gets run over or finds a better home someplace else and never comes back.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:43 PM on April 7, 2014
Don't call animal control. In a perfect world that might resolve this, but in the real world the only thing you can be sure that will do is make this family despise you. It will complicate the hell out of everything. My original suggestions involved trying to reason with the family, and if that failed waiting until the cat got out yet again and then spiriting him away to a new home. The only heartbreak you'd be subjecting these kids to is whatever they're bound to feel eventually when their cat gets run over or finds a better home someplace else and never comes back.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 6:43 PM on April 7, 2014
Mod note: One comment deleted. Constructive answers directed to OP, please, and no namecalling.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:25 PM on April 7, 2014
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:25 PM on April 7, 2014
I took in a cat in a similar situation. What I did was pass him to Animal Control when he was outside at -30C. Our city has a "special consideration" clause that kicks in when turning in a stray: it basically means you are calling first dibs on the cat. My cat was tremendously cute and personable and would have been adopted in about 5 seconds. He is sitting on my left wrist as I type this (he now weighs 15 lbs.).
His owners had a certain number of days to claim him, then he became legally ours without passing out of Animal Control's care.
tl;dr Check with your municipal Animal Control to see if you can claim first rights to him if he becomes stray again.
posted by Deodand at 7:53 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
His owners had a certain number of days to claim him, then he became legally ours without passing out of Animal Control's care.
tl;dr Check with your municipal Animal Control to see if you can claim first rights to him if he becomes stray again.
posted by Deodand at 7:53 PM on April 7, 2014 [2 favorites]
Here is what the humane society suggests for this kind of situation.
It's still best to call and ask them (or a similar organization) about your exact situation directly. They are the experts, can tell you whether this actually is neglect or not, unlike any of us, are in a position to talk to the family about it and educate them, unlike any of us, and can help protect the cat and future pets owned by this family, unlike any of us.
There's nothing wrong with taking him into your house overnight, even every night if he's around, but anything beyond that is a case for the animal rescue people, if the cat's well-being is the main concern here.
posted by randomnity at 7:57 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's still best to call and ask them (or a similar organization) about your exact situation directly. They are the experts, can tell you whether this actually is neglect or not, unlike any of us, are in a position to talk to the family about it and educate them, unlike any of us, and can help protect the cat and future pets owned by this family, unlike any of us.
There's nothing wrong with taking him into your house overnight, even every night if he's around, but anything beyond that is a case for the animal rescue people, if the cat's well-being is the main concern here.
posted by randomnity at 7:57 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: This has been an interesting furry little hand grenade. I've had a few emails, too: mostly very kindly and supportive. For what it's worth, I agree with everyone who is calling privilege, and it's one reason that I'm not simply running kitty off to the local rescue (one of the other people who took him in worked for a local rescue, and they'd have him now were they not completely out of space -- she couldn't take him, which is why she wanted me to. This is also the person who said that there's abuse and neglect at this address).
I do have to point out that I'm not the only person who thought kitty was in a position that needed rescuing. He did, indeed, need rescuing, as freezing to death isn't much fun.
But if he comes back to the house I'll talk to the family and see what we can work out. The weather is warm now and he won't wander or fight as much as he would when he was intact (and as I've said, I won't apologize for neutering him). I don't mind paying for kitty's care, as long as kitty is safe and happy.
If I have to, I'll take him to the SPCA and wait for him to come up for adoption; had I done that when I first found him I'd not be in this situation. Our local SPCA is pretty much a kitty death sentence -- nice people though they are -- so I'll not take him there if not absolutely necessary.
posted by jrochest at 9:06 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
I do have to point out that I'm not the only person who thought kitty was in a position that needed rescuing. He did, indeed, need rescuing, as freezing to death isn't much fun.
But if he comes back to the house I'll talk to the family and see what we can work out. The weather is warm now and he won't wander or fight as much as he would when he was intact (and as I've said, I won't apologize for neutering him). I don't mind paying for kitty's care, as long as kitty is safe and happy.
If I have to, I'll take him to the SPCA and wait for him to come up for adoption; had I done that when I first found him I'd not be in this situation. Our local SPCA is pretty much a kitty death sentence -- nice people though they are -- so I'll not take him there if not absolutely necessary.
posted by jrochest at 9:06 PM on April 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Obviously this doesn't apply to Canada, but it might be a useful way of thinking about the abuse issue - in the UK, the RSPCA has a page about the Animal Welfare Act. Among other things, it says that owners 'must take positive steps to ensure they care for their animals properly and in particular must provide for the five welfare needs, which are: need for a suitable environment, need for a suitable diet, need to be able to exhibit normal behaviour patterns, need to be housed with, or apart, from other animals, need to be protected from pain, suffering, injury and disease.'
I think that giving him access to Outside is fine as long as he has free access to Inside as well, which - if he did, and if he still chose to be outside in such brutal temperatures, might make me think that a cat has a right to run away if he finds his home more unpleasant than -50 deg C over and over again. If he doesn't have free access to Inside and they're putting him out at those temps and not letting him back in, that seems to me to be putting the cat in harm's way. If he's staying away from them at those temps - being given an opportunity to come in but refusing, not coming when called, that sort of thing - I don't really have any respect for a law that would value the claim of the family he's choosing to avoid in those conditions over the cat's need to have a home where he feels safe and is cared for.
posted by you must supply a verb at 9:54 AM on April 8, 2014
I think that giving him access to Outside is fine as long as he has free access to Inside as well, which - if he did, and if he still chose to be outside in such brutal temperatures, might make me think that a cat has a right to run away if he finds his home more unpleasant than -50 deg C over and over again. If he doesn't have free access to Inside and they're putting him out at those temps and not letting him back in, that seems to me to be putting the cat in harm's way. If he's staying away from them at those temps - being given an opportunity to come in but refusing, not coming when called, that sort of thing - I don't really have any respect for a law that would value the claim of the family he's choosing to avoid in those conditions over the cat's need to have a home where he feels safe and is cared for.
posted by you must supply a verb at 9:54 AM on April 8, 2014
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posted by Blitz at 11:32 PM on April 6, 2014 [4 favorites]