What do you think of our business idea: online paper editing service?
October 23, 2005 8:08 AM Subscribe
Please provide feedback on my new business idea: online college paper and essay editing service
My wife is a college writing instructor, and I'm a web geek, so we're toying with the idea of starting an essay editing service where students submit their essays online.
Here's what I'd like from you: If you have ever used such a service, what were your impressions? Please take a look at our web site-in-development and give feedback (it's not complete); What do you think of our proposed prices? Is it 100% clear on the web site that we do NOT write papers? Any other feedback?
Initially, my wife will do the editing. If we get a good response, she will subcontract editing to her colleagues and, if necessary, grad students.
My wife is a college writing instructor, and I'm a web geek, so we're toying with the idea of starting an essay editing service where students submit their essays online.
Here's what I'd like from you: If you have ever used such a service, what were your impressions? Please take a look at our web site-in-development and give feedback (it's not complete); What do you think of our proposed prices? Is it 100% clear on the web site that we do NOT write papers? Any other feedback?
Initially, my wife will do the editing. If we get a good response, she will subcontract editing to her colleagues and, if necessary, grad students.
It seems that this service would be against most college or university academic honesty policies.
posted by birdherder at 8:29 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by birdherder at 8:29 AM on October 23, 2005
From the Site:
At The Paper Police, we help you improve your writing by editing your college papers and essays for:
* spelling and word usage mistakes
* grammatical errors
* incorrect punctuation usage
* structural coherence
* style and voice
Nothing here indicates that there would be any "cheating" in the traditional sense of the term. Student writers are often encouraged to have their papers edited and/or to get feedback before turning in their final draft. Now, if you want to argue that the student who can afford this service recieves an unfair advantage over the student who can't, then perhaps you could make a case that there's something unethical (in the broader sense of the word) going on here. But it's not a violation of any school rules of which I've ever heard.
Now, as to tippiedog's question...
There are two things you have to remember about college students. First, they finish things at the last minute. 90 percent of the college students I've ever known would need the 12 hour turn around time at minimum. If it were my business, I'd be looking for a way to offer a 6 (or even a 3) hour turn around time. Second, college students are usually broke. If you're going to have to charge 12 bucks a page, I really think this is going to be cost prohibitive for most students. What would really help is if you could come up with an efficient way of billing their parents for the service.
posted by Clay201 at 8:44 AM on October 23, 2005
At The Paper Police, we help you improve your writing by editing your college papers and essays for:
* spelling and word usage mistakes
* grammatical errors
* incorrect punctuation usage
* structural coherence
* style and voice
Nothing here indicates that there would be any "cheating" in the traditional sense of the term. Student writers are often encouraged to have their papers edited and/or to get feedback before turning in their final draft. Now, if you want to argue that the student who can afford this service recieves an unfair advantage over the student who can't, then perhaps you could make a case that there's something unethical (in the broader sense of the word) going on here. But it's not a violation of any school rules of which I've ever heard.
Now, as to tippiedog's question...
There are two things you have to remember about college students. First, they finish things at the last minute. 90 percent of the college students I've ever known would need the 12 hour turn around time at minimum. If it were my business, I'd be looking for a way to offer a 6 (or even a 3) hour turn around time. Second, college students are usually broke. If you're going to have to charge 12 bucks a page, I really think this is going to be cost prohibitive for most students. What would really help is if you could come up with an efficient way of billing their parents for the service.
posted by Clay201 at 8:44 AM on October 23, 2005
Academia will say this is bad I expect.
Logically this seems like a good idea though. I mean when your doing a big essay, it's not uncommon to have several different drafts marked by a tutor or friends. Doesn't this just distribute that? You still get to find out where you suck. I mean as long as your not actually, re-writing bits of their essay, and just circling bits which suck and stating why I don't see it being hugely evil or detrimental to a students ability.
If by editing, you mean fixing their work so it sucks less, then I'd say this is a bad idea though. Not that it won't make money (it could) but because it'll get a bad rep with educators and will make people stupider, rather than help them make themselves smarter.
posted by alexst at 8:45 AM on October 23, 2005
Logically this seems like a good idea though. I mean when your doing a big essay, it's not uncommon to have several different drafts marked by a tutor or friends. Doesn't this just distribute that? You still get to find out where you suck. I mean as long as your not actually, re-writing bits of their essay, and just circling bits which suck and stating why I don't see it being hugely evil or detrimental to a students ability.
If by editing, you mean fixing their work so it sucks less, then I'd say this is a bad idea though. Not that it won't make money (it could) but because it'll get a bad rep with educators and will make people stupider, rather than help them make themselves smarter.
posted by alexst at 8:45 AM on October 23, 2005
Further, isn't this sort of self-promotional question against the spirit of AskMe?
That said, the prices seem a bit low. I can't think of any good writers who'd take $16 per 1000 words for dissertation quality content unless it was highly duplicated. That said, I notice ESL work is the prime focus, so perhaps it's a lot easier than I'd imagine.
posted by wackybrit at 8:46 AM on October 23, 2005
That said, the prices seem a bit low. I can't think of any good writers who'd take $16 per 1000 words for dissertation quality content unless it was highly duplicated. That said, I notice ESL work is the prime focus, so perhaps it's a lot easier than I'd imagine.
posted by wackybrit at 8:46 AM on October 23, 2005
From the site:
-----------------
About academic dishonesty
Generally speaking, academic dishonesty is defined as presenting work done (in whole or in part) by someone else as if it were one's own.
We do not condone academic dishonesty. If we have reasonable cause to believe that you have intentionally engaged in academic dishonesty in the preparation of a document that you have asked us to edit, we will return your document to you unedited and refund in full your payment for that document.
If you have any questions about what constitutes academic dishonesty, please contact us or refer to your academic institution's policies and definitions regarding academic dishonesty.
------------------------------
That is pretty vague. A friend of mine used to buy papers online but never, never had them edited online. Also, he's a huge douche about that stuff. The whole point was he was too lazy to write it, so he wanted to buy one. He could go to a free tutor or a writing clinic on campus, or have another student edit his paper - i'm guessing there are a half dozen paper editing options on just about any campus and they don't involve a credit card. Where is the demand for this service?
Which brings me to my next point: it is not very clear from the index page that your site doesn't write papers, especially because you have a page/hour rate scale there with no noticeable disclaimer about actual writing. Stupid, lazy people will see that and send you poorly spelled, incoherent emails about you writing them "Taht paeper on Napoleeawn." Are you trying to fool people? Again, people studious enough to actually write the paper will edit it themselves.... unless the game here is they submit a 'paper' that's really just a skeleton and you fill in the blanks, which goes back to that whole academic dishonesty chestnut.
Also, the fact that you are lifting content from another site to use on your site, well, that's just shabby.
posted by tweak at 8:54 AM on October 23, 2005
-----------------
About academic dishonesty
Generally speaking, academic dishonesty is defined as presenting work done (in whole or in part) by someone else as if it were one's own.
We do not condone academic dishonesty. If we have reasonable cause to believe that you have intentionally engaged in academic dishonesty in the preparation of a document that you have asked us to edit, we will return your document to you unedited and refund in full your payment for that document.
If you have any questions about what constitutes academic dishonesty, please contact us or refer to your academic institution's policies and definitions regarding academic dishonesty.
------------------------------
That is pretty vague. A friend of mine used to buy papers online but never, never had them edited online. Also, he's a huge douche about that stuff. The whole point was he was too lazy to write it, so he wanted to buy one. He could go to a free tutor or a writing clinic on campus, or have another student edit his paper - i'm guessing there are a half dozen paper editing options on just about any campus and they don't involve a credit card. Where is the demand for this service?
Which brings me to my next point: it is not very clear from the index page that your site doesn't write papers, especially because you have a page/hour rate scale there with no noticeable disclaimer about actual writing. Stupid, lazy people will see that and send you poorly spelled, incoherent emails about you writing them "Taht paeper on Napoleeawn." Are you trying to fool people? Again, people studious enough to actually write the paper will edit it themselves.... unless the game here is they submit a 'paper' that's really just a skeleton and you fill in the blanks, which goes back to that whole academic dishonesty chestnut.
Also, the fact that you are lifting content from another site to use on your site, well, that's just shabby.
posted by tweak at 8:54 AM on October 23, 2005
There's already a few sites like this around. For instance, smarthinking does tutoring on a wide array of subjects, and is purchased by the hour, rather than per page of an assignment. My school has a contract with smarthinking and we've had great feedback from students about how the program gives students very specific feedback on writing styles and language use.
posted by boo_radley at 9:11 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by boo_radley at 9:11 AM on October 23, 2005
Oh, and to people who note that he's copying content: I'd give tippiedog a little break until the site is complete. It's clear that the inclusion of other's work is meant as a guide for content to come, and not as his original work itself. Would lorem ipsum have been better and more professional? Sure, but it's not the greatest sin while a site's under development.
posted by boo_radley at 9:30 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by boo_radley at 9:30 AM on October 23, 2005
Wow, this is a really awful idea, and it disturbs me that it was the brainchild of a college professor, whose job is to TEACH STUDENTS TO WRITE, not teach students to have someone else do their work.
If students want help editing and proofreading their work, they should be encouraged to visit their campus writing center, their professor (as a freshman comp instructor I often helped my kids see their mistakes and fix them on their own) or a trusted friend. Students submitting papers online to an unknown entity would just take the human interaction out of the writing process.
Also, I would be pretty ticked if I found out that my professor was spending her time editing other people's papers and not helping me learn how to write my own papers.
I very, very, VERY strongly oppose this idea, and I question the integrity of any professor who thinks it's a good one.
posted by elisabeth r at 9:30 AM on October 23, 2005
If students want help editing and proofreading their work, they should be encouraged to visit their campus writing center, their professor (as a freshman comp instructor I often helped my kids see their mistakes and fix them on their own) or a trusted friend. Students submitting papers online to an unknown entity would just take the human interaction out of the writing process.
Also, I would be pretty ticked if I found out that my professor was spending her time editing other people's papers and not helping me learn how to write my own papers.
I very, very, VERY strongly oppose this idea, and I question the integrity of any professor who thinks it's a good one.
posted by elisabeth r at 9:30 AM on October 23, 2005
Your business could very easily become successful in terms of earning you money and I must admit, the name "The Paper Police" made me smile. However, I am unsettled by the section on "What do we look for," in which you state that you will edit for:
"Style and Voice: Once your essay is structurally sound, we work to give it a unique style and voice, eliminating awkward or vague words and phrases and replacing them with elegant and precise ones. This step in our essay editing service makes your essay not only more consistent, but also more individual."
I see that this copy is taken from a competitor's site, so perhaps this will change. But, if you really will be editing for style and voice, I think this crosses the already fine line between editing a paper and academic dishonesty. To me, editing for style and voice is writing someone's paper for him, at least in part.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 9:35 AM on October 23, 2005
"Style and Voice: Once your essay is structurally sound, we work to give it a unique style and voice, eliminating awkward or vague words and phrases and replacing them with elegant and precise ones. This step in our essay editing service makes your essay not only more consistent, but also more individual."
I see that this copy is taken from a competitor's site, so perhaps this will change. But, if you really will be editing for style and voice, I think this crosses the already fine line between editing a paper and academic dishonesty. To me, editing for style and voice is writing someone's paper for him, at least in part.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 9:35 AM on October 23, 2005
Most schools have a writing center that employs grad students to help with these sorts of issues in student writing - and it's free. How would the service you're offering be different?
(Not a criticism, per se, just something I would want to be addressed if I was considering paying for this site's services.)
posted by ferociouskitty at 9:47 AM on October 23, 2005
(Not a criticism, per se, just something I would want to be addressed if I was considering paying for this site's services.)
posted by ferociouskitty at 9:47 AM on October 23, 2005
Well, I'm a banker by profession, and teach econometrics part time at a local University (the department likes having someone around who spent time on a trading desk).
Most of my time at the University these days is spent as a dissertation advisor. I work with a lot of students that don't speak English as their mother tongue. We have a regimented grading system, and an alarmingly large percentage of these students lose points soley because of crappy grammar / presentation / etc.
Sometimes the papers are so damn bad it's almost physically painful to read through them, even though the underlying statistics and arguements are solid. So something like this would help level the playing field somewhat, and I wouldn't have a problem if I knew someone used such a service to touch up a disseration.
That being said, we're seeing a sharp increase in the number of disserations purchased online. You can usually tell if a poor student submits a really stellar piece of work, or if you don't get a proposal, never see or hear from a student and then all of a sudden they submit a great paper. Seems like our department is catching two or three each year now, out of fifty or students. Damn shame too, 'cause regardless of past academic performance, they fail and they fail hard.
posted by Mutant at 10:10 AM on October 23, 2005
Most of my time at the University these days is spent as a dissertation advisor. I work with a lot of students that don't speak English as their mother tongue. We have a regimented grading system, and an alarmingly large percentage of these students lose points soley because of crappy grammar / presentation / etc.
Sometimes the papers are so damn bad it's almost physically painful to read through them, even though the underlying statistics and arguements are solid. So something like this would help level the playing field somewhat, and I wouldn't have a problem if I knew someone used such a service to touch up a disseration.
That being said, we're seeing a sharp increase in the number of disserations purchased online. You can usually tell if a poor student submits a really stellar piece of work, or if you don't get a proposal, never see or hear from a student and then all of a sudden they submit a great paper. Seems like our department is catching two or three each year now, out of fifty or students. Damn shame too, 'cause regardless of past academic performance, they fail and they fail hard.
posted by Mutant at 10:10 AM on October 23, 2005
Why would a student pay someone to edit their paper when they can go to their professor or writing center for the same type of guidance? I don't think there would be a market for such a thing. It would seem the students who were too lazy/confident/whathaveyou to bring their paper to the writing center would not be interested in paying for such service.
posted by rhapsodie at 10:20 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by rhapsodie at 10:20 AM on October 23, 2005
IAACP (I am a college professor) and don't have a problem with students seeking help with the structure and grammar of their papers before they hand them in. In fact, I sternly warn students that I should not be the first person in the world, other than themselves, to read their papers. Have a friend copy edit it, or bring it to the campus writing center, I tell them. What you are offering seems to be the same thing.
I have no idea if your business model is sound here. Students can indeed get what you are offering for free on most campuses, though the quality of campus tutoring varies and is usually low.
posted by LarryC at 10:28 AM on October 23, 2005
I have no idea if your business model is sound here. Students can indeed get what you are offering for free on most campuses, though the quality of campus tutoring varies and is usually low.
posted by LarryC at 10:28 AM on October 23, 2005
"Why would a student pay someone to edit their paper when they can go to their professor or writing center for the same type of guidance?"
Gosh I won't correct a student's grammar while I'm tutoring them on their dissertations. I'm only there to guide them through their research and to help them get the highest possible grade by doing something interesting, thought provoking and cogent. I always tell students, however when they've got a problem wrt grammar and such, usually suggesting that they get help from someone. If they try to push it I tell me that means anyone but me.
I make the importance of this obvious by telling them that ten points of their total grade are for grammar / presentation / etc and it would be a shame to lose them. Some listen, some don't.
posted by Mutant at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2005
Gosh I won't correct a student's grammar while I'm tutoring them on their dissertations. I'm only there to guide them through their research and to help them get the highest possible grade by doing something interesting, thought provoking and cogent. I always tell students, however when they've got a problem wrt grammar and such, usually suggesting that they get help from someone. If they try to push it I tell me that means anyone but me.
I make the importance of this obvious by telling them that ten points of their total grade are for grammar / presentation / etc and it would be a shame to lose them. Some listen, some don't.
posted by Mutant at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2005
Response by poster: As some of you have speculated, some of hte content on the current in-development web site is copied from a competitor's site, and I will change it. I'll respond to other feedback later when I have a little more time.
posted by tippiedog at 10:55 AM on October 23, 2005
posted by tippiedog at 10:55 AM on October 23, 2005
As someone fresh out of college, I agree with those who say I don't know how many college students would pay for this service. The ones who have it together enough to have their paper done far enough in advance to have someone else check it... usually check it themselves. As for the rest (and that usually included me), they don't care- they just want it finished and off their desk. I think the only people who might express interest in your service are students looking to have someone else do all or almost all of the work for them.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:08 AM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:08 AM on October 23, 2005 [1 favorite]
Seems like a distinction here is between courses that are designed to teach students to write, in which this would pose academic dishonesty problems, and cases in which students must write to get across ideas, and poor writing simply gets in the way of clear expression. In the former, your help would be Not Okay, and in the latter it would be fine.
There's no way you're going to be able to distinguish between the students whose professors would approve of using your services. I'd suggest arranging for a partnership with a university that allows students to access your services via the Blackboard or other course system, and also allows profs to specify what degree of editing they will allow their students to have. The university can then bill for your services directly to the students, or charge a flat rate for everyone in the class (less preferred) or whatever. Good luck, and I'd be very careful with this idea.
posted by lorrer at 11:12 AM on October 23, 2005
There's no way you're going to be able to distinguish between the students whose professors would approve of using your services. I'd suggest arranging for a partnership with a university that allows students to access your services via the Blackboard or other course system, and also allows profs to specify what degree of editing they will allow their students to have. The university can then bill for your services directly to the students, or charge a flat rate for everyone in the class (less preferred) or whatever. Good luck, and I'd be very careful with this idea.
posted by lorrer at 11:12 AM on October 23, 2005
I work as a tutor in a college writing center. I've occasionally had students try to turn in papers and leave, asking us to edit it for them. We're not a paper editing service, and though I don't speak for my college, I think that would be dishonest. We sit down with them and help them realize what they're doing in their papers.
I'd say this borders on dishonesty.
posted by Hall at 12:20 PM on October 23, 2005
I'd say this borders on dishonesty.
posted by Hall at 12:20 PM on October 23, 2005
You may want to have a look at this thread, which was directly about the ethical issues here.
Ethical issues aside, I think you're going to have a lot of trouble dealing with students who don't understand what they are buying. You say you aren't a paper writing service, but there are a lot of students I don't think will believe that. Furthermore, since they are paying you directly (as opposed to the very indirect monetary relationship between a university hired writing tutor, and a student getting tutored), it's going to be a lot harder to deal with clients who didn't get what they wanted (you to write a paper for them). They will be your customers, and you may have to spend quite a bit of time telling them that they aren't right.
posted by advil at 1:41 PM on October 23, 2005
Ethical issues aside, I think you're going to have a lot of trouble dealing with students who don't understand what they are buying. You say you aren't a paper writing service, but there are a lot of students I don't think will believe that. Furthermore, since they are paying you directly (as opposed to the very indirect monetary relationship between a university hired writing tutor, and a student getting tutored), it's going to be a lot harder to deal with clients who didn't get what they wanted (you to write a paper for them). They will be your customers, and you may have to spend quite a bit of time telling them that they aren't right.
posted by advil at 1:41 PM on October 23, 2005
and, if necessary, grad students.
By the way, as a grad student, this is very possibly one of the last jobs I'd ever take. Not only is the academic integrity issue too murky (I could imagine (very unlikely) situations with things going very wrong in a career-destroying way), but I already spend enough time when I'm TAing dealing with versions of this problem that any second job I would take probably isn't going to be one where I correct papers. I have no idea if I'm representative, though, and my funding situation may be better than some people's.
posted by advil at 1:48 PM on October 23, 2005
By the way, as a grad student, this is very possibly one of the last jobs I'd ever take. Not only is the academic integrity issue too murky (I could imagine (very unlikely) situations with things going very wrong in a career-destroying way), but I already spend enough time when I'm TAing dealing with versions of this problem that any second job I would take probably isn't going to be one where I correct papers. I have no idea if I'm representative, though, and my funding situation may be better than some people's.
posted by advil at 1:48 PM on October 23, 2005
As someone who writes for a living -- whose work is heavily edited before it gets printed -- I have a hard time agreeing with people who think this proposal is inherently unethical. It just depends on how you go about it.
I occasionally volunteer to edit college and grad-school friends' papers. Does that mean re-write? No, not even close. Does it mean tutor, like Hall does? Not that either.
This is how I edit papers:
* I fix minor sloppy errors without comment -- things like a misplaced modifier or poor use of semi-colon that seem to be the result of hurried writing, rather than poor understanding of the language.
* For bigger grammatical or punctuation errors, I bold the error, then in a different text color (usually red) explain what's wrong and suggest ways to fix the problem.
* When there are problems with transitions, bad metaphors, and when the writing is hard to understand, I bold these trouble spots, and in red text explain what my concern is. Sometimes I suggest simpler, more direct ways to get at the point, since people tend to go overboard with wordiness on academic papers.
* At the top of the paper I write a summary of things the essay-writer could do to improve the paper. This could be a paragraph or a few pages, depending on what needs to be done. A lot of the time, I'll suggest ways to reorganize the paper to improve flow.
This level of editing can easily take between two and five hours of my time per draft, and when I return the paper to a friend sometimes I worry that they won't talk to me any more once they see my harsh notes. But I honestly believe it makes their writing -- and thus their underlying arguments -- stronger. I also believe it's completely ethical.
The question, tippiedog, is whether this is what you're talking about. Re-writing someone's paper for money seems questionable to me. Guiding them through a re-write, pointing out thier weaknesses, and fixing their grammatical errors is another story altogether.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 2:07 PM on October 23, 2005
I occasionally volunteer to edit college and grad-school friends' papers. Does that mean re-write? No, not even close. Does it mean tutor, like Hall does? Not that either.
This is how I edit papers:
* I fix minor sloppy errors without comment -- things like a misplaced modifier or poor use of semi-colon that seem to be the result of hurried writing, rather than poor understanding of the language.
* For bigger grammatical or punctuation errors, I bold the error, then in a different text color (usually red) explain what's wrong and suggest ways to fix the problem.
* When there are problems with transitions, bad metaphors, and when the writing is hard to understand, I bold these trouble spots, and in red text explain what my concern is. Sometimes I suggest simpler, more direct ways to get at the point, since people tend to go overboard with wordiness on academic papers.
* At the top of the paper I write a summary of things the essay-writer could do to improve the paper. This could be a paragraph or a few pages, depending on what needs to be done. A lot of the time, I'll suggest ways to reorganize the paper to improve flow.
This level of editing can easily take between two and five hours of my time per draft, and when I return the paper to a friend sometimes I worry that they won't talk to me any more once they see my harsh notes. But I honestly believe it makes their writing -- and thus their underlying arguments -- stronger. I also believe it's completely ethical.
The question, tippiedog, is whether this is what you're talking about. Re-writing someone's paper for money seems questionable to me. Guiding them through a re-write, pointing out thier weaknesses, and fixing their grammatical errors is another story altogether.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 2:07 PM on October 23, 2005
If the majority of your product is exactly what a competitor offers (based on the fact that your "what we do" section is lifted from another site), and you are not doing anything to differentiate yourself from online competitors and the services already offered on campuses, then your business is probably going to get very far off the ground.
You might want to think about creating some sort of paper "lifecycle" service where you help students turn their ideas into outlines, etc. and then provide feedback on the draft version. Obviously, students can get this sort of help at the writing lab on campus, but not at the last minute (when most students typically begin their papers). This would be a much more honest business than re-writing crappy college papers.
You should also offer samples of your work on the site to illustrate what you do, and what you do not do. This will help cut down on disappointed customers who are under the illusion that they are paying for a service that you didn't provide.
Another suggestion is to get some college board approval/testimonial/etc. for your company . This is the only way you will be able to make sure that you are offering an ethical, honest service.
Finally, why market to college students? Why not market to college-bound high school students? They have far less options for help on their school campuses, and they have more disposable income. Most high school students in "college bound," honors and AP classes have substantial papers to write, not to mention college essays. The benefit here is that you begin to build loyalty and gain customers who will continue to use your services through their college career. Obviously, this advice should be taken ONLY if you are providing a service geared toward helping students learn to be better writers by pointing out mistakes and room for improvement. I am not advising that you target high school students (or even college students for that matter) with a dishonest re-writing business. That would be seriously wrong.
posted by necessitas at 2:21 PM on October 23, 2005
You might want to think about creating some sort of paper "lifecycle" service where you help students turn their ideas into outlines, etc. and then provide feedback on the draft version. Obviously, students can get this sort of help at the writing lab on campus, but not at the last minute (when most students typically begin their papers). This would be a much more honest business than re-writing crappy college papers.
You should also offer samples of your work on the site to illustrate what you do, and what you do not do. This will help cut down on disappointed customers who are under the illusion that they are paying for a service that you didn't provide.
Another suggestion is to get some college board approval/testimonial/etc. for your company . This is the only way you will be able to make sure that you are offering an ethical, honest service.
Finally, why market to college students? Why not market to college-bound high school students? They have far less options for help on their school campuses, and they have more disposable income. Most high school students in "college bound," honors and AP classes have substantial papers to write, not to mention college essays. The benefit here is that you begin to build loyalty and gain customers who will continue to use your services through their college career. Obviously, this advice should be taken ONLY if you are providing a service geared toward helping students learn to be better writers by pointing out mistakes and room for improvement. I am not advising that you target high school students (or even college students for that matter) with a dishonest re-writing business. That would be seriously wrong.
posted by necessitas at 2:21 PM on October 23, 2005
I am also a prof, and I don't have a strong negative reaction to this, though clearly there need to be some ethical firewalls built in.
For the record, I do not consider it my job to help my students be better writers -- hell, I am not a great writer myself. I will circle their grammatical, spelling and formatting errors, and I will offer suggestions on structure and sustainability of argument. But primarily I offer feedback on the substance of their argument, the factual content, the theoretical sophistication, and so forth. If I had to write the kind of feedback that croutnsf offers above (whch sounds admirable and really, superbly helpful and educational) then I would never get anything else done. And teaching is only part of my job.
Telling students in the syllabus that you expect well written, well presented essays, suggesting some sources for that (style manuals, discipline specific style guides, campus resources) should be the end of it. If you can't write, you can't easily pass my essays. Sorry. Get help. I am not your writing coach.
I do make allowances (within reason) for ESL students
The campus writing clinic is a good idea but often unavailable at point of need. Procrastination is the single biggest problem in my view, with lateness meaning no time for students to copy-edit their own work let alone have someone else do it.
I help graduate students a lot more because there may be technical writing issues they will be hard pressed to obtain elsewhere. But they are also held to a much higher standard, and their written submissions usually go through several revisions between them and me.
posted by Rumple at 2:47 PM on October 23, 2005
For the record, I do not consider it my job to help my students be better writers -- hell, I am not a great writer myself. I will circle their grammatical, spelling and formatting errors, and I will offer suggestions on structure and sustainability of argument. But primarily I offer feedback on the substance of their argument, the factual content, the theoretical sophistication, and so forth. If I had to write the kind of feedback that croutnsf offers above (whch sounds admirable and really, superbly helpful and educational) then I would never get anything else done. And teaching is only part of my job.
Telling students in the syllabus that you expect well written, well presented essays, suggesting some sources for that (style manuals, discipline specific style guides, campus resources) should be the end of it. If you can't write, you can't easily pass my essays. Sorry. Get help. I am not your writing coach.
I do make allowances (within reason) for ESL students
The campus writing clinic is a good idea but often unavailable at point of need. Procrastination is the single biggest problem in my view, with lateness meaning no time for students to copy-edit their own work let alone have someone else do it.
I help graduate students a lot more because there may be technical writing issues they will be hard pressed to obtain elsewhere. But they are also held to a much higher standard, and their written submissions usually go through several revisions between them and me.
posted by Rumple at 2:47 PM on October 23, 2005
I am also a prof, and I don't have a strong negative reaction to this, though clearly there need to be some ethical firewalls built in. Lots of students get lots of editing help, and there is nothing wrong with that in my field. The boundary that is of concern is, when does editing become content? This concern is accentuated in disciplines where style actually can be content -- say English Lit. So you are setting up your business on a slippery slope and that could easily lead to headaches down the road.
For the record, I do not consider it my job to help my students be better writers -- hell, I am not a great writer myself. I will circle their grammatical, spelling and formatting errors, and I will offer suggestions on structure and sustainability of argument. But primarily I offer feedback on the substance of their argument, the factual content, the theoretical sophistication, and so forth. If I had to write the kind of feedback that croutonsf offers above (whch sounds admirable and really, superbly helpful and educational) then I would never get anything else done. And teaching is only part of my job.
Telling students in the syllabus that you expect well written, well presented essays, suggesting some sources for that (style manuals, discipline specific style guides, campus resources) should be the end of it. If you can't write, you can't easily pass my essays. Sorry. Get help. I am not your writing coach.
I do make allowances (within reason) for ESL students.
The campus writing clinic is a good idea but often unavailable at point of need. Procrastination is the single biggest problem in my view, with lateness meaning no time for students to copy-edit their own work let alone have someone else do it.
I help graduate students a lot more because there may be technical writing issues they will be hard pressed to obtain elsewhere. But they are also held to a much higher standard, and their written submissions usually go through several revisions between them and me.
posted by Rumple at 3:02 PM on October 23, 2005
For the record, I do not consider it my job to help my students be better writers -- hell, I am not a great writer myself. I will circle their grammatical, spelling and formatting errors, and I will offer suggestions on structure and sustainability of argument. But primarily I offer feedback on the substance of their argument, the factual content, the theoretical sophistication, and so forth. If I had to write the kind of feedback that croutonsf offers above (whch sounds admirable and really, superbly helpful and educational) then I would never get anything else done. And teaching is only part of my job.
Telling students in the syllabus that you expect well written, well presented essays, suggesting some sources for that (style manuals, discipline specific style guides, campus resources) should be the end of it. If you can't write, you can't easily pass my essays. Sorry. Get help. I am not your writing coach.
I do make allowances (within reason) for ESL students.
The campus writing clinic is a good idea but often unavailable at point of need. Procrastination is the single biggest problem in my view, with lateness meaning no time for students to copy-edit their own work let alone have someone else do it.
I help graduate students a lot more because there may be technical writing issues they will be hard pressed to obtain elsewhere. But they are also held to a much higher standard, and their written submissions usually go through several revisions between them and me.
posted by Rumple at 3:02 PM on October 23, 2005
hmmm -- edits one and two of my response both came through. Oddness, and a window into my thought process I suppose.
posted by Rumple at 3:04 PM on October 23, 2005
posted by Rumple at 3:04 PM on October 23, 2005
Response by poster: Thanks for all the great and candid feedback. When I posted this, I was frustrated by the inability to explain my idea in detail. As it turns out, it was great to get feedback just based on what you saw on the web site in development.
If we go through with this--and that's still a big if at this point, hence my asking here for feedback--I realize I will need to make it painfully clear exactly what service we offer (and what services we do NOT offer). I assumed that some students who found us would be looking to buy a paper, but I now realize I need to exaggerate that clarification on the web site. I plan to put up sample corrected essays. I realize now I should have done that before I submitted here, so y'all could see exactly how we plan to do correcting.
My wife's biggest concern is ethics, and after much discussion, we've concluded that--should we go through with this--she will mark up essays just as she would when working in the writing center at her college--which she does on occasion. Mark a type of error at a particular location, but leave it to the student to figure out how to fix it. To that end, she'll use the 'insert comment' feature of Word and not actually re-write anything in the papers.
As to those of you who've pointed out that students can get this same service other places, some of which are free, I agree completely. As to whether there's a market for that particular type of correction for pay, especially with students who need help on very short notice, I have no idea. If we decide to go through with this at all, we have a plan to roll it out on a limited basis for one semester to test the market.
Thanks again for your feedback! It has been very instructive.
posted by tippiedog at 6:03 PM on October 23, 2005
If we go through with this--and that's still a big if at this point, hence my asking here for feedback--I realize I will need to make it painfully clear exactly what service we offer (and what services we do NOT offer). I assumed that some students who found us would be looking to buy a paper, but I now realize I need to exaggerate that clarification on the web site. I plan to put up sample corrected essays. I realize now I should have done that before I submitted here, so y'all could see exactly how we plan to do correcting.
My wife's biggest concern is ethics, and after much discussion, we've concluded that--should we go through with this--she will mark up essays just as she would when working in the writing center at her college--which she does on occasion. Mark a type of error at a particular location, but leave it to the student to figure out how to fix it. To that end, she'll use the 'insert comment' feature of Word and not actually re-write anything in the papers.
As to those of you who've pointed out that students can get this same service other places, some of which are free, I agree completely. As to whether there's a market for that particular type of correction for pay, especially with students who need help on very short notice, I have no idea. If we decide to go through with this at all, we have a plan to roll it out on a limited basis for one semester to test the market.
Thanks again for your feedback! It has been very instructive.
posted by tippiedog at 6:03 PM on October 23, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
Feedback: Bad.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 8:23 AM on October 23, 2005