Join 3,512 readers in helping fund MetaFilter (Hide)


How to discourage surprise visitors?
March 24, 2014 2:09 PM   Subscribe

My husband and I both work from home and need to come up with ways to discourage people from dropping by with no warning during the day.

Our friends and family constantly drop by without calling first to see if the timing is convenient -- which, during standard working hours almost never is. We've tried making announcements on Facebook: "As much as we love visitors, please be sure to call first if you want to drop by during the week anytime before 5:00!" We've tried opening the door and telling visitors it just isn't a good time but people either linger for 10 minutes in the doorway anyway or give us crap for not being available. We've tried not answering the door at all, which is very awkward since both our vehicles are parked right in the driveway (we don't have a garage). We've tried letting people in and saying upfront that we only have X minutes to chat but they stick around anyway and don't even get the message when we both actively start typing away on our computers.

On the surface, simply not answering the door seems like the easiest answer. Trouble is, our office is right at the front of the house and its windows face the front door. Unless the blinds are drawn, callers know we're here because they can see us at our desks literally five feet when they knock on the door.

Option one is to move our office into the guest room but it would be terribly cramped and, frankly, I'd resent rearranging our homes to accommodate (read: hide from) visitors. Option two is to keep the blinds drawn at all times but we'd like to let in some natural light rather than work in a cave all day.

What options are we not thinking of here? We've really got to get this under control because it's creating a lot of tension for us during the workday since we're constantly worried someone will show up unannounced.
posted by _Mona_ to Human Relations (48 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
Sign on the door? We are working and cannot talk now. Please come by at x o'clock.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:11 PM on March 24 [29 favorites]


What about making a cute, funny, and politely-phrased "do not disturb" sign for your front door?
posted by Sara C. at 2:11 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]


The next time someone stops by, if you know who they will want to see, have the other one answer the door with "Oooh, not a good time, [spouse] is on a conference call. Maybe try again, after 5?" Or fake a phone call when you answer the door and cover the receiver and whisper to them "Sorry, busy day at the office! Come back after 5."

I think even giving them a window in which to chat (saying you have X minutes) could be encouraging them. Just a straight up "Sorry, we're both busy with work, come back after 5" and shut the door. With repeat offenders, perhaps sit them down (after hours, of course!) and make it clear that you absolutely cannot answer the door for them anymore, because it interrupts your workflow. Don't even say "only emergencies" because they'll still do it, but call it an emergency.
posted by troika at 2:22 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]


Install 'bottom-up' bilnds on the windows in the office
posted by askmehow at 2:23 PM on March 24 [16 favorites]


You are being way, way too nice to people who are being way, way too rude. Saying
"As much as we love visitors, please be sure to call first if you want to drop by during the week anytime before 5:00!" is not direct enough. People see "we love visitors!" and don't see the rest. Make a new post "We are working during business hours, please don't stop by during the day."

Then:

Doorbell rings, you answer "Hi! We are working. (Partner) is on a conference call, so it's a bad time. Can you come back later, after 5? Thanks! Then close the door before they have a chance to respond.
posted by ambrosia at 2:25 PM on March 24 [12 favorites]


I think this is a situation where you need to "train" people by not rewarding their inappropriate behavior. Don't say you can chat for X minutes, don't let them keep talking. Just say, "Oh, hi, I'm working, why don't you drop by around 5 PM, or maybe we'll give you a call around then! HAVE A GREAT AFTERNOON! [Big! Smile!]" and close the door.

(This is a variation on what I do when students show up outside my office hours and I don't have time to talk. If me saying, "Sorry, busy, come back another time," doesn't stop them from talking, I let my eyes glaze over, and when they take a breath, I say, "Yeah, we should talk about that some time. My office hours are 10 AM tomorrow, or you can email me to make an appointment to talk to me some other time. Gotta get these papers graded, though, so bye!")

Even if not coming to the door is awkward, this can also send a message to people who you've already talked to about this problem. If they're obnoxious enough to keep knocking or come to your window or nothing, write on a piece of paper "WORKING! CALL AT 5 PM! :D" and hold it up to the window. If they complain later, just smile and say, "Oh, yeah, well, like I told you, we work until 5 PM, and we can't do social stuff in the middle of the day. Work, what a pain, amirite! But you know how it is, gotta pay the bills! [Change of subject.]"

You can stay friendly while still communicating that it is not possible for you to talk now, but every time you give in and talk to them, you're sending the message that you're not really serious about not wanting people to come over.
posted by BrashTech at 2:26 PM on March 24 [14 favorites]


A sign that says (in a cuter way perhaps) that "I don't disturb you at your workplace, please don't disturb me at mine! I'll be 'home' @ X:00 pm. Thanks!"
posted by cgg at 2:27 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]


Who does this??!

For repeat offenders, talk to them directly and tell them have to stop dropping by with no warning and no call during working hours. Tell them flat-out that it's not okay and you don't like it and they have to cut it out.

To fend off the more random visitors, put a sign on the door. Something like "We can't visit socially during working hours; please be considerate and give us a call after [whatever time]."

For anyone who rings the doorbell anyway, and assuming your house is not actually on fire, tell them "Hi! We're working right now. Talk to you after five!" and then close the door. Do not invite them in.
posted by rtha at 2:28 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]


Wow, do your family and friends all not work?

Is there another place you can park your cars during the workday, such as at a (walkable) neighbor's house?

Reiterate your previous Facebook messages. Be insistent that you will not answer the door for surprise visitors between the hours of 9 and 5 (or whatever your work hours are) without prior appointment. Then, don't answer the door during work hours unless your visitor has made prior arrangements with you to visit.

Put a sign on your door while you're working saying that you both work from home and while you can't see surprise visitors right now, you'll be happy to see them if they come back after [TIME].

If they give you crap, tell them "tough."
posted by tckma at 2:29 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


I think you really do have to stop answering the door. You can use blinds if you want, or window film, or you can wave apologetically, but they will not stop until you stop chatting with them.

I know it's going to feel incredibly rude, but if asking them to stop was going to make them stop they would have stopped by now.

If it makes you feel better you could make a blanket facebook statement saying, "Hey, remember how we said we couldn't have visitors during the day? We're finally cracking down, sorry! Next time you knock on our door before 5, we won't be answering even if we're home."
posted by mskyle at 2:30 PM on March 24 [14 favorites]


If you want to talk to people for a few, then I would be really clear that the visit is over after X minutes. It sounds like subtle signals aren't working, so you'll need to say something like, "well, really gotta get back to work now. I'll call you later," then get up and start to walk toward the door. People in actual offices do this everyday. Otherwise, sign is a good idea, and don't feel bad.
posted by amodelcitizen at 2:30 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]


Stop answering the door. We're lucky, I suppose, since we live in a third-floor apartment behind three locked doors, so people can't even tell if we're home. But it doesn't matter. They know. We frequently have friends over but nobody ever drops by unannounced. They have gotten the point by now. Be firm.
posted by futureisunwritten at 2:37 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


The people who are staying too long are perhaps expecting you to end the visit explicitly. It sounds like you're such nice people that this is difficult for you, but it doesn't have to hurt peoples' feelings. I'm not the best at subtlety, but here's one idea:

Just say something like, "Wish we could talk longer, but I really have to get back to work right now if I'm going to finish in time. It's the weird part of this job. Sorry! Let me walk you to the door (or, if they're extra tough, to the car)." Then leave them outside, close the door, and go back to work.
posted by amtho at 2:39 PM on March 24


Yeah, I had a similar problem in my apartment building. Friendly, well-meaning neighbors knocking at my door during working hours (and other times). I finally taped up a whimsical "Do Not Disturb" sign. That stopped the problem in its tracks. I left it up for about a week -- long enough for everyone to have seen it -- and then took it down. So far, so good.
posted by nacho fries at 2:40 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]


Maybe install sheers instead of blinds. You'll still get natural light but it will be harder for people outside to see in.

It seems like you aren't going to get through this without hurt feelings on the other side. Not that they are justified since they are the ones being rude but they seem to be determined to not see they are at fault here.

Either don't answer the door and be prepared for the fallout on FB or wherever or answer the door and give the often-suggested and terrific "it's just not possible" line: "I'm sorry. It's just not possible for us to socialize right now." Stick to your guns and don't give them an opening and hopefully they'll eventually get the message.

Good luck!
posted by Beti at 2:42 PM on March 24


Your cars were in the driveway but you didn't answer the door!

"We were having sex."
posted by bonobothegreat at 2:45 PM on March 24 [30 favorites]


You should not rely on an update posted on Facebook to communicate important information to people. There is no way to know whether Facebook chooses to show this update to any particular person. You will also look a bit silly to other people who see it on Facebook who aren't interrupting you.

Seek out the repeat offenders proactively and say something like, "Hey, we've been having a little trouble getting enough work done, so I'd really appreciate it if you would not come to our house without calling first. We won't be able to hang out if you visit unannounced."

As for the people who give you crap, that is very annoying. Either they are making a bad joke (in which case your sense of humor don't really mesh) or they really mean it. In either case I would be pretty annoyed at them.
posted by grouse at 2:46 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


You could try explicitly making an "appointment" to talk to them then and there.

X: Hi, how's things, I thought I'd come and have a chat....
You: That would be great, I'm working now but are you free Saturday for lunch?
X: Sure, Saturday works for me.
You: Great! See you on Saturday! Bye then!

Hopefully this communicates both "I like spending time with you and do not hate you" and "Please go away now" and perhaps also "this conversation could have been conducted just as successfully by text".
posted by emilyw at 2:48 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]


Give the frequent visitors a heads up that this is happening, then put a "business hours" sign on your front door... Except when it's business hours, you're not answering the door because you're working for customers.
posted by SakuraK at 2:54 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]


2nd'ing "Who does this??!"

I think the trick is to act just as you would if you worked in a large office building or call center or retail store and they showed up there.

Knock, knock.
You: (Worried) Hi! What's going on? Is everything ok?
Them: Yup, just came to chat!
You: Oh...well...we're working now, so I have to get back, but I'll talk to you tonight. (Closes door.)

And just repeat until they get it.

I also like the idea of answering the door while talking or "talking" on the phone.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 2:55 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


I'd put a sign on the door that says "Do Not Disturb -- We are at work. We will be available at 5:00 PM. Thank you!" And then if people come by and ring the doorbell, don't answer it. If they see you through the window, ignore them. If they're impossible to ignore, point to your watch, point to the door, and shrug bemusedly. If they still don't go away, get up and go into the kitchen or the bathroom until they do.

If you want to make sure your relations with these folks stay good, call them at like 5:02 and say "Hey, I saw you stopped by earlier! Sorry we couldn't chat -- I was at work. What's up?" That will make it clear that it's the timing you object to, not the contact.
posted by KathrynT at 2:59 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]


Park your cars around the corner for a couple of weeks and stop answering the door. Get bottom up blinds or opaque cling film for the bottom of the windows. Don't offer any explanation when people ask where you were. They will get the point and start at least calling to see if you are home.
posted by rpfields at 2:59 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]


It sounds like your friends and family are all ask culture people!

Want to know something that I've learned about ask culture people? They are generally totally ok with being told no.

Years ago I had a roommate who was one of those people who could just chat and chat and chat at times where it was SO OBVIOUSLY CLEAR that it was not an ok time to talk. Like through the bathroom door while I was pooping. Or in the middle of the night (she was a nocturnal theater person) when I was half asleep getting a glass of water. Or as I was literally walking out the door to leave for class. Etc.

What I realized is that she was just a person who liked to talk, who just bombarded attempts to talk at people until something stuck. The flip side of that is that she was ok (and this is something I've gone on to notice among folks like her) with me just saying "not right now" and walking away. She was ok with me just shutting the door in her face. She was ok with me saying "this is a bad time, let's talk later." I just had to be consistent.

I'd ask her about it at neutral times, and she never thought I was being rude, just like she never thought she was being rude when trying to talk to me. Learn this, apply it, and suddenly achievement unlocked.

Cliff's Notes version: just tell them no and shut the door. It'll be ok.
posted by phunniemee at 3:01 PM on March 24 [8 favorites]


Get one of those door signs stores have with the moveable clock hands. Set the hands for 5:00 and put the clock sign on the door. Don't answer the door.
posted by Elsie at 3:26 PM on March 24 [6 favorites]


Whimsical answer: install a motion sensor that plays a foreboding message when triggered. Think Addam's Family esque seriousness. (We have not yet risen from our coffins -- please return at 5pm lest we awaken too early and decide to feed on you first.)

Serious answer: no, really, what about doing a motion triggered message that plays during your work hours? Sure, it might get annoying, but it may discourage people enough to not repeat the process.
posted by Hermione Granger at 3:36 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


Are ALL your friends and family unemployed?! How rude to "drop in" during work hours!
Do not answer the door under any circumstances, whether or not you put up a sign. Just leaving your desk to answer the door is an interruption. Not allowed!

If there were ever a time the People Pleasing instinct should be strangled, this is it!
posted by BostonTerrier at 3:39 PM on March 24


I used to have a sign that said NO POP-INS, and I would not answer the door. Rude, maybe. But my friends who understood that are still my friends. The others...
posted by waitangi at 3:42 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]


Clock sign noted above, set to 5:00. Written above: "Closed to all visitors until...." Written below: "See you then!"
posted by raisingsand at 3:54 PM on March 24 [2 favorites]


I would just flat out tell people that I can't have unscheduled visitors between 8:00 am and 5:00 pm. If you're working for someone else, you could get in trouble. If you're working for yourself, you aren't making money. Encourage people to drop by after 5:00 pm.
posted by cnc at 4:22 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


I have been in a similar situation as a freelance artist. Roommates took my working from home as my being available to hang/talk/ect. at any hour. Interruptions were frequent and affected my work. So I put a note on my door that said: "Work Hours: 10-6. Please do not disturb." Like you, I had a window that someone could look into while standing at the front door. So I made sure to -always- keep headphones on. If someone ignored my note? I ignored them by looking busy.

I get the feeling, though, you're trying to be nice to everyone that's interrupting you and having a hard time saying 'No' as a result. Saying 'No' doesn't need to equate to being rude. You've got sound advice already - if someone ignores your signs/notes then you really need to be firm "Sorry, our business hours are from x - x. Please do not disturb us during these times. Thanks!" and then stick to your guns. Don't open the door. And if you're worried about that being rude, you can even include a note on your sign "We do not answer the door between the hours of x - x. Thanks!"
posted by stubbehtail at 4:43 PM on March 24


Not a total solution, but you can also fake being on a work call. Open the door, quickly say I'm on a call and I had to put them on hold when you knocked. Did we have something scheduled I forgot about? No, ok bye then. Gotta go back by. All done in an anxious and slightly upset manner.

I'm sort of shocked that anyone, especially anyone outside of your family would do this. I would probably send out a mass email using bcc for all the guilty parties, making it clear that you cannot and from now on will not be opening the door for drop ins before 5:00 pm.
posted by whoaali at 4:51 PM on March 24


Yeah, why would you invite them in? Just open door and say "I'm sorry, you know we work from home and are trying to keep regular business hours. Was it anything urgent? Ok, let's talk later and make some plans...ok, thanks bye". You control the door, how long it stays open and who enters. Being nice isn't working and vague FB messages aren't working. Time for some Shamu-style training (referencing the NYT Modern Love article, not supporting whales in captivity!).
posted by bquarters at 5:11 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


"I'm on a conference call, can't talk now" should always work.

If not, say you have to go to a meeting, and then get in your car and drive around the block.
posted by musofire at 5:13 PM on March 24


I would not want unexpected visitors at any time of the day, least of all when I was working. Even telling people to come by after 5:00 would freak me out. No one should be just randomly knocking on your door, ever. You have to set an ironclad rule: call first. Even with my family members, I would not think of just walking up to their door and knocking on it. I recently had a neighbor who would come up at odd hours and knock, asking for pantry items, etc. And that freaked me out. I don't care if I am just browsing MetaFilter or cooking supper, I could be in the shower or frankly, not inclined toward company, but my house is my private zone. Do Not Enter unless asked.

So maybe you should set the bar higher: no one can come over unless invited. Period.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 5:24 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]


Etsy has some cute signs for this very thing:

* Working From Home Or Unavailable - Please Do Not Knock or Disturb
* Please Do Not Disturb - Meeting in Progress
* You can customize this double-sided one
posted by magstheaxe at 5:24 PM on March 24 [3 favorites]


"No Admittance Except on Business"
posted by IndigoJones at 6:10 PM on March 24


Work naked, and answer the door likewise. I fully intend to do this if I ever get people dropping in on me uninvited. (but then I am scary when naked; you might just encourage them with this).
posted by The otter lady at 6:21 PM on March 24


Sign on the door Do Not Disturb. Deliveries - call 555-1212. Mom drops by at 10 a.m., you've told her many times that you're busy, but you try to be polite. "Mom, I'm working right now. I'll call you after work. No, I don't even have 5 minutes for coffee. Love you - call you later" and close the door. At 5, go to her house, and talk to her. "Mom, when I've told you I'm working, that I don't want company, maybe you didn't understand. Spouse and I have jobs and we have to be working. When you come visit during my work hours, it's a problem. I don't want to close the door in your face, but I may have to sometime quite soon."

I would not answer the door unless it's Fedex with chocolates I'd ordered.
posted by theora55 at 6:45 PM on March 24


The problem isn't that they haven't heard, or even that they don't believe you. It's that everyone thinks they're special and that you meant everyone else.

Make a list of people that ARE allowed to drop in unannounced and publish that however. Email, facebook, post on the front walk. Put only entries on the list like "Police officers (with search warrant only)", "Firefighters actually engaged in putting out fires. (Note: must leave immediately when fire is out)"
posted by ctmf at 6:53 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


We don't accept drop-in visitors at our home whatsoever. If friends want to socialize, they can make plans or call ahead of time. People dropping by our house without advance warning would be very strange.

To answer your question, I would just enforce the rule of no drop-ins at any time. Before or after 5 PM. Weekend or weekday. No drop-ins ever. If someone wants to socialize, they can contact by phone and then make plans.
posted by 99percentfake at 7:08 PM on March 24 [4 favorites]


Face it, if you answer the door, even if you think you're going to say nothing but, "Come back later." they WILL keep talking and delaying you.--Not to mention the issue of interrupting your train of thought.

Put a sign up: NO visitors. ( adding after five pm is optional, but I wouldn't bother.

Then don't answer the door. Period. If they give you crap about it, don't bother to apologize, tell them you are on deadline and can't have everybody and his dog bothering you while you're working, and you're absolutely sure they understand. End discussion.
posted by BlueHorse at 8:36 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


Yes, I agree with the "you're being too nice" advice. You're being too nice. These people are pushing your boundaries and you're being kind about it. I understand why - being kind is nice - but it's not working.

I'm not saying be unkind, but phrase your message more negatively. "We love visitors" says to people "Hey, come bug me, I love when people visit." I'd say something like this instead: "We don't like being disturbed during working hours. It's challenging to work from home because the temptation to relax is higher - my sweatpants are only a few feet away from me all day, and so is my pet and my couch and my ice cream! When people come by, even just for a few minutes, it is disruptive. Thanks for understanding. Let's be sure to have dinner this Thursday at 7."

Responding with negative words about your feelings about being interrupted, being kind but firm, and making other plans should be helpful. I also find that when I say "Thanks for understanding" it helps set the stage a bit for understanding, or at least acceptance.

Sometimes setting boundaries is really, really difficult. Especially with people that you love and care for and do not want to hurt. Setting a boundary is only something we do when people overstep, right? And no one wants to be overstepping, really, not on people we love, and breaking that news to people - "hey, you're overstepping" - yeah, that sucks. A lot of boundary pushers don't even know they're doing it because boundaries are incredibly difficult to negotiate and can often be unspoken, and that makes breaking the news all the harder. But it's a necessary part of life. I'd be direct, honest, caring, but firm when you break the news. And congrats on your soon-to-be uninterrupted work life.
posted by sockermom at 10:38 PM on March 24 [1 favorite]


ps - the ideas for the signs are very cute, and I think you could probably put up a friendly reminder "no pop ins please" type of sign, but I would go the direct route first. Signs, notes, text messages - these things can very easily read as passive-aggressive even when they're intended to be a sweet and lighthearted way to deliver a message, so I would steer clear from swinging out of the gate with a sign on the door.

I might put one up after talking to the offenders, if that's feasible - it's not clear how many people are stopping by in your question (in my view, one is more than enough!) I think that a brief conversation with all or most of the people who do this before putting up a sign would probably be a good idea. The sign, if you find a cute one that you like, could help to remind people who may be used to popping in a lot, if that's something you're dealing with.

Also, in my experience, telling people "I only have x amount of time to chat" never works unless x = 0. People will always overstay their welcome (or, at least, it happens enough that you always have to expect it).
posted by sockermom at 10:46 PM on March 24


Seconding the sentiment of "who does this?!" Oh, but I have family with boundary issues as well, so I suppose I can imagine it. Seconding sheer blinds on your window to obscure you a bit from prying eyes.

My suggestion is that you don't answer the door at all, since from your description, they refuse to be politely turned away.

Instead, give them a way to leave a note at your door. Basically, calling cards without a butler to receive them, taking a formality cue from the past. And then, importantly, at 5:00 pm each day, contact each person right away to acknowledge their note. At that point, you can answer their question, invite them over, make arrangements, whatever. They'll squawk bloody murder at first but ideally will be won over (i.e. trained) if you keep up your end of the bargain and give them their attention on schedule.

Possible physical setup off the top of my head:
- Dedicated, labeled, weather-resistant letterbox at your front door containing a stash of folded notecards and a pen or two. (Obviously, make sure it is clearly different from your actual postal mailbox.)
- Sign with instructions to visitors to leave a message and that you will not be able to answer the door between [hours]. Go for a tone that is a bit fussy but with a glint of humor to make it a little less coldly bureaucratic.
- Delivery through mail slot in your front door. The advantage of a mail slot is assurance for them that you've received their note without them needing to alert you, but if you don't have a mail slot and can't install one, I guess messages could be also left in the letterbox. Either way, include that in the instructions and remind them to leave preferred contact info.
posted by desuetude at 11:00 PM on March 24


Don't answer the door, sign in the window. Don't feel guilty about ignoring people who disturb you when you're working. They know you're in, so what? They also know you work from home. You are not the rude ones in this situation.
posted by missmagenta at 2:51 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]


I would begin the process by answering the door, but leaving no room whatsoever for conversation. "Hey! Sorry, we're working. Come by after 5, okay?" Then smile politely and close the door. Don't let them ask you any questions. Don't let them keep talking as if you didn't just tell them you can't talk (I've had people do this to me) or anything along the lines of "Real quick!" Don't give them any response other than, "We can't talk right now" and door closing. Not even an answer to "Do you want me to pick you up something from the store?" or "Will you be at the party this weekend?" Nothing.

If that same person comes by again on a different day, you can escalate to, "Seriously, we can't have visitors during the work day." Followed by a less smiley door close.

Third time, don't come to the door. If they knock on your window, point to your computer, shake your head, and go back to work.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:40 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]


The concept of working from home is tough to understand when you don't work from home. My neighbor, religious missionaries, friends, etc simply do not understand that home ≠ free time. People who would never walk into your office to bug you think it's cool to show up at your house for coffee. They aren't intentionally being rude they just assume that home = available.

I go with, "I wish I had time to chat, but I'm working." Wave and close door. They'll say they just need a sec. Too bad. Close door and say call me this evening. It's like training an animal. You must NEVER reward the behavior you are trying to correct. Even if you could take a break, you go close the door. No negotiation.

Practice the behavior. Say the sentence and close the door. Knowing exactly how you'll respond will ratchet down the stress.
posted by 26.2 at 11:40 AM on March 25


BlueHorse mentioned it in passing but "deadline" is very powerful word. Even folks who don't understand the concept of working from home get the idea when keep throwing around the word "deadline". Good adjectives are crushing, totally mental, frightening along with modifiers such as wickedly, horribly.
posted by bonobothegreat at 12:21 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]


« Older Ever since we had our new air ...   |  How do I get my friends to be ... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments