Smoking Hipster Question

October 18, 2005 10:05 AM

So, kreteks/clove cigarettes: will they kill me?

So, I've plumbed the archives, and have mostly learned that only goths and hipsters smoke cloves. I've searched a bit of the internet, and found lots of scary CDC numbers--I am at a university, I don't have time to track down the references and see what the research and methodology were like, and none of the stats are really what I'm looking for. So, here's a bit more explanation.

I'm a non-smoker. I even have asthma to a limited degree. I'm not the biggest fan of inhaling, and cigarettes have always seemed pretty disgusting to me. Cloves, on the other hand, actually taste good. So now I'm curious: will smoking one of these or so a day really be that bad for me? Especially if I'm not inhaling much/at all?

I hear lots of stories about how much blood you'll cough up (and on and on); Wikipedia seems to think this is a reduction in gag reflex from the eugenol, and a case of one just noticing the blood more.

So what info/experiences do you have? Should I just try smoking a pipe?

posted by hototogisu to Health & Fitness (24 answers total)

Smoking is smoking. You have athsma! What are you thinking?

Cloves do taste good, but you can chew on one and get the same taste. They're harsh -- and when I smoked a few of them at the age of 20, I was already a pack-a-day tobacco smoker, and I found them painfully harsh. I've since quit. There's no kind of smoke that helps your lungs. It all carries tar and it all irritates.

Pipe smoking is not really a safer choice. Instead of damaging the lungs, you damage the throat, mouth, and nasal passages. Pipe smokers who get cancer tend to develop face/mouth cancerns rather than lung cancers.
posted by Miko at 10:08 AM on October 18, 2005

I don't know how directly harmful they are, but... cloves have got me back on the regular cigarettes more than once. You think, "well, one clove would be pretty good", but it reactivates the craving for tobacco again in your brain.

It's much easier to not inhale with a pipe or a cigar. But listen to Miko. Tobacco isn't really all THAT great.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:11 AM on October 18, 2005

Response by poster: Ah yes, smoking is bad, I didn't know that. I think many of us have seen numbers detailing how long it takes to regain lung capacity after all cessation of smoking--usually these seem to be referencing people who are smoking a pack or two a day. None of this is what I have any intention of doing (I've smoked quite a few now--no cravings in the least, and have never had any trouble with "addictive" substances in the past). So, more to the point again: is such a limited number really all that bad?
posted by hototogisu at 10:18 AM on October 18, 2005

Similar recent question.
posted by occhiblu at 10:22 AM on October 18, 2005

I hear lots of stories about how much blood you'll cough up
When I was younger they would say, "smoking 3 coves is equivalent to a pack..."

As a smoker they are harsher on your lungs.

I smoked a pack a day for a few weeks and compared to the two 1/2 cigarette packs a day... times it by 11/2 when comparing to a cig . As far as blood, seen them chained smoked with no blood being hacked. (For the record, I don't smoke that much, just the place I was @)

Most like the buzz...so smoke them once in awhile for the effect every time...I do.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:25 AM on October 18, 2005

Response by poster: Thanks occhiblu
posted by hototogisu at 10:26 AM on October 18, 2005

I may or may not be a good example of anything, since both my father and I seem to be unable to become addicted to alcohol or nicotine, even though we have both had extended periods of time where we (over)indulged in one or both, but, for what it's worth: I smoked cloves rather than cigarettes because when I drink, I smoke, and I really hate cigarettes. Personally, myself, I smoked cloves more slowly, and therefore smoked fewer of them when I did smoke. I kept them in a nice cigarette case which started many conversations in bars.

That said, one night I got insanely drunk and smoked every.single.one. in my case. I felt like I was going to die the next day and really haven't touched them, even casually, since, which was . . in 2002. So, I had a physical last year and my lung capacity is apparently more than just fine -- therefore, it seems that any damage done has certainly been undone by now, other than if I develop cancer, which I may or may not get from aspartame, air pollution, high heels, or anything else, anyway.
posted by Medieval Maven at 10:37 AM on October 18, 2005

One of the stories I've heard, though now I'm not sure of its veracity, is that the sugar crystalizes in your lungs and is more likely to make little lessions than regular cigarette smoke. If this isn't true, well, at least it's an apocryphal tale that discourages you from smoking cloves. I can say that the social cost (ie that every stranger around you will hate you with a near unbridled passion) should hopefully dissuade you from smoking cloves.
I guess at least they're not bidis.
posted by klangklangston at 10:38 AM on October 18, 2005

Response by poster: klangklangston: social cost? Now that I would like to hear more about. I tried them with friends at a packed bar, no one cared inside (not too many people, either), and everyone outside wanted one. Is this not usually the case?
posted by hototogisu at 10:44 AM on October 18, 2005

Response by poster: *not too many people smoking inside,

damn typing.
posted by hototogisu at 10:45 AM on October 18, 2005

I didn't find cloves gave me cravings for regular tobacco. I treated clove smoking sort of like cigar or pipe smoking. (They last longer than cigarettes and they're heavier, so having one was good to last me for a while, if I really left it go and didn't dip right back into the pack.) You don't really inhale much on either of those, but they can still give you mouth cancer; therefore, I would assume if cloves were equivalent, then yes, there is risk in smoking daily, even just one. Cloves are harsher than cigarettes, and it's not a great leap to equate smoking a couple cloves to smoking a cigar, or to smoking a pack of cigarettes.

I was about a half-pack a day smoker up until three years ago (granted, I smoked ultra-light menthols). I found if I smoked a pack of cloves too rapidly it would make my lungs hurt, and I'd develop a hacky sort of cough especially bad in the mornings. (I smoked Sampoerna Internationals; Djarum were way too heavy for me.) Too rapidly, let's say a pack lasting me two weeks or less, so that'd be a clove a day, plus everyone bums off you when you have cloves. They were easy to overdo; I felt fine after one, but having one every day quickly became a problem.

I do have a cigarette occasionally (say, once every two weeks or once a month on average; I have the good fortune not to be addicted to nicotine); I would feel like that was an acceptable level of risk for smoking cloves. But if one a day was too much for me as a smoker then I'd assume it'd be too much for a non-smoker. The daily use wouldn't give my lungs and mouth time to recover and I'd think that'd increase any risks (not a bit scientific, this; just gut reaction and past experience). If you have asthma, I'd think that'd be even worse, to expose yourself to it daily, rather than occasionally. Sort of like pollution - a vacation in a polluted city might not take much of a toll on your lungs, but living there every day would.
posted by Melinika at 10:50 AM on October 18, 2005

A limited number of cloves can be bad -- probably not significantly worse than the same number of cigarettes. Also probably not significantly better, unless you are really not inhaling, in which case they won't do too much damage. Things to keep in mind regarding cloves:

1. They do contain tobacco, and consequently nicotine, so they are addictive. It's very common to start smoking cloves and end up smoking "real" cigarettes.

2. The reason you don't feel the scratchiness in your throat that a normal cigarette causes and are less likely to cough, etc., when smoking a clove, is that cloves contain substances which act as a mild topical anaesthetic (you can notice that even around your lips the sensation is slightly dulled after smoking a few). It's not because the smoke is any less damaging that that in a cigarette.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 11:07 AM on October 18, 2005

What is "too much damage," anyway? Any smoking is harmful, we know this. As is inhaling exhaust fumes, as is standing over a barbecue. I guess the question is, are you willing to assume the risks of smoking the cloves?

lung capacity is apparently more than just fine -- therefore, it seems that any damage done has certainly been undone by now

Lung capacity is only one measure of lung health. Damage at the cellular level can take decades to show as cancer or emphysema, so you really can't tell if you've done damage based on how your lungs are performing today.
posted by Miko at 12:02 PM on October 18, 2005

Of course. But if you're going to be even a casual smoker, you're accepting that right off the bat. Besides, as I said, my lung capacity is fine, notwithstanding any cancer I may get later -- from aspartame, cheddar, air pollution, or pizza.
posted by Medieval Maven at 12:51 PM on October 18, 2005

Jesus, people. Of course smoking is bad for you, no one's questioning that. Hototogisu says he'll be indulging in moderation if at all, and the question at hand is if cloves are worse than regular cigarettes.
posted by squidlarkin at 1:40 PM on October 18, 2005

Actually, squidlarkin, the question is "will smoking one of these or so a day really be that bad for me? Especially if I'm not inhaling much/at all?"

Which is pretty much exactly the question that people have been answering.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 1:52 PM on October 18, 2005

Even if you're not inhaling, you can still get cancer. Perhaps not as dangerous as lung cancer, but it would still be not good to live out the last years of your life without a tongue, or with a reconstructed lip or a prosthetic jaw.
posted by Sara Anne at 2:00 PM on October 18, 2005

Response by poster: Thanks for the answers everyone, though the sanctimony is more than a little irritating.
posted by hototogisu at 3:15 PM on October 18, 2005

found lots of scary CDC numbers

the CDC is meant to scare you.
posted by brandz at 8:51 PM on October 18, 2005

the sanctimony is more than a little irritating.

Sorry. I smoked for too long, and found it to be too evil, to be neutral. And I began as casually and as recreationally as you. And I didn't have athsma. It's not so much sanctimony as it is hoping you will be smarter than me.
posted by Miko at 7:31 AM on October 19, 2005

Response by poster: I was mostly referring to some stuff that I hadn't noticed had been deleted--you're A-OK.
posted by hototogisu at 8:13 AM on October 19, 2005

"What is "too much damage," anyway? Any smoking is harmful, we know this. As is inhaling exhaust fumes, as is standing over a barbecue. I guess the question is, are you willing to assume the risks of smoking the cloves? "

Strictly speaking, not true. How about inhaling THC? The question was about degree of harm.
posted by Lockeownzj00 at 6:02 PM on October 19, 2005

I'm with klangklangston - those things smell way worse than cigarettes (an about a million time stronger), and every time I've been anywhere they were being smoked, the general consensus seemed to be "Who the f*ck is smoking a CLOVE?!?!"

I tried them a few times in high school, and they definitely feel worse than tobacco as well.
posted by sluggo at 8:29 PM on October 19, 2005

Smoking herbs...dam I tried that once and nearly gave up somking for life ;(
posted by rommer at 2:52 PM on June 17, 2006