How to respond to friendly/slightly diminishing comments from employees
February 3, 2014 3:58 PM   Subscribe

I'm petite, younger, female and upper management in a male-dominated physical line of work. Several of my colleagues and employees regularly make casual friendly but slightly condescending comments to me. I generally push back pretty firmly with employees and ignore it from colleagues, but I feel uncomfortable and am unsure if MeFi might offer some better tactics for responding.

Though I earned my position coming up the traditional way with physically-demanding jobs I'm still 10-30 years younger than the majority of those I supervise for a variety of reasons including my willingness to repeatedly relocate for promotions, several graduate degrees, etc. I always receive extremely positive ratings from supervisors and employees but also interact with a lot of men who enjoy reminding me that I'm younger than their kids (and in some cases, grandkids). I ignore the kid-related comments or just redirect to ask to see a picture of their family, or about what their kid is doing career-wise, etc.

But I don't know what to do with the friendly but subtly condescending remarks.

Examples:

I typically work some on weekends - almost all of leadership does this in order to stay on top of our workload. I texted one of my subordinates on Sunday (a day he is normally scheduled to work) for a status update on a project. He replied back "It is Sunday! Turn off your phone and relax!!"

I responded "The work doesn't stop - I usually put in a few hours on Sundays. Have a good weekend."

He responded "I like that you are as dedicated to the job as I am...but one thing I learned is you need time away to keep your sanity. Knock off for the day."

I responded "I'm glad you're getting that time away today. Have a good weekend!"

Another example:

I checked in with an employees about the status of a project I'd asked him to work on. I'd previously (weeks ago) reviewed a draft copy and provided edits and comments. He wrote back,

"We're nearly done with it. You did a fantastic job!!!"

I responded "Actually, I was meaning to tell you that you did a great job on the draft - I know this will be a successful project. Please cc me when you submit it this week."

Another one that I get on a regular basis - apropos of nothing, from both co-workers (same position) and employees that report to me in a paternal and slightly condescending tone, often accompanied by a pat or squeeze on my shoulder: "Anon, you're doing a great job."

I never know what to say to this other than "Thanks!" and quickly moving on to another topic.

Anyone have any suggestions on this? I would never feel comfortable instructing MY supervisor to "turn off your phone", etc. it just feels patronizing.

I should note - I never get these kinds of comments from my supervisors. They are happy with me and my competence, but never suggest I stop working on Sundays, etc.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (55 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite
 
You're the boss. You have the power to say what you feel if what you feel isn't exactly "Thanks!" or "I'm glad...etc.!"
posted by oceanjesse at 4:02 PM on February 3, 2014


First off, don't text people. Although it works great with younger people, it makes you correspondingly look young/inexperienced. Call people or email them. Business professionals don't text.

First example (working on Sunday): Better reply is, "Okay. Please tell me about the status of xxxx". Don't acknowledge his comment or justify your request. He may think you're overworking, but that's irrelevant to you. You're his superior, so you don't need to justify your work style. If this continues, tell him exactly what I just told you. (I find that a simple reply of "Okay" is great for shutting down irrelevant conversation)

Second example (draft copy status): I'm not sure what's wrong with that statement. He gave you status and complimented you. Take the compliment. You should have acknowledged the compliment while returning the compliment.

Third example: I think you're reading into the statement too much without other evidence. Although they may be acting paternalistically/condescendingly, they're giving you a compliment. Further, you are getting raises/promotions. Unless you have evidence they're holding back your career somehow, there's nothing you should be doing about this - if the worst you can complain about is that people compliment you "badly" at work, you have a great job.

I should note - I never get these kinds of comments from my supervisors. They are happy with me and my competence

This is what ultimately matters. You don't need to please people that you manage. You need to please those who manage you. Most of the time, those two are connected. However, so long as your management is happy with you, you should not be worrying too much about how people perceive your success.
posted by saeculorum at 4:11 PM on February 3, 2014 [19 favorites]


I would just ignore all of this.

There's nothing else you can really do. If you call them out or correct them, or go above their heads/to HR, you're going to be seen as uptight and impossible to work with. I mean, they're being friendly, and it's not like this is borderline harassment or anything.

Also, a lot of dudes are chronic mansplainers, no matter what, nothing you do will change that. And bringing it up will just drive a wedge. Since you can't really afford to burn this particular bridge, just, I don't know, realize that your employees are all mansplainers and move on, I guess.

I definitely agree with the tactic of pretending these things were not said and not responding to them, rather than accepting the complement or having a conversation about your weekend work habits.
posted by Sara C. at 4:20 PM on February 3, 2014 [10 favorites]


Oh wow, I so completely relate. Here's a hard lesson: Don't respond. Say your piece but never react with "I'm glad you are getting time away -- have a good weekend!"

If they question you or make comments, you have to do whatever version of steely stare you can muster and STAY SILENT. Let your employees text and email and sound off and respond and have the last word, you must acclimate yourself to not responding. You are management. Your mission is not known to them.

As for the pats on the shoulder, make a tight smile and step away. Keep doing a great job and work on not worrying about the reactions/responses. It's really hard, but you can do it. This is exactly what the issue is with women pushing up through the glass ceiling. You have to fake smile, not worry about making the men reporting to you comfortable, and continue to kick ass.

Big good luck.
posted by thinkpiece at 4:22 PM on February 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


I agree that texting is a weird way to check in with your subordinates. There's no paper trail; texts are incredibly easy to blow off. Check in via e-mail so you have proof of how they respond.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:31 PM on February 3, 2014 [8 favorites]


Hm, speaking as a woman in a reasonably male-dominated field, who is often younger than people I supervise (though probably not quite as much as you)..

I confess I read through this waiting to get to the really problematic comments, and at the end I was like, "that's it?" Perhaps I'm not getting something, but none of these seem really bad at all. Two of them are compliments, delivered over text, so there's no tone there that you failed to convey. You might be mis-inferring the patronising/condescending tone or context yourself. The other one I read as friendly socialising, totally in line with something I would say or would receive myself -- not intended as a patronising way at all, just as friendly chat.

Of course, I wasn't there so I really might be missing something -- but it's also possible that you're reading a tone into these that isn't there. Either way, there's not much to do other than take the high road and be the person you want to be regardless of this sort of comment. I doubt any of this is meant badly and it's so subtle that trying to "correct" it will probably just alienate people who it does seem are on your side, by making you look overly sensitive or picky.
posted by forza at 4:38 PM on February 3, 2014 [42 favorites]


I actually don't see how they are being condescending. Maybe in tone, but tone is pretty hard to gauge electronically. Maybe give them the benefit of the doubt? Maybe they really mean thanks and don't burn yourself out on work.
posted by Houstonian at 4:48 PM on February 3, 2014 [8 favorites]


It's condescending and they're not treating you like a superior. I agree with the stare/wtf-look.

And I'm a professional in my field and texting is fine in my world. If a subordinate blows off a text then it would be just like them blowing off something I said verbally and I would deal with it without needing any kind of proof of what I said.
posted by ftm at 4:53 PM on February 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


I wish I knew the answer to this. Sometimes juniors do feel protective of their bosses, and feel guilty that they're causing extra work. I've had juniors apologise to me about all kinds of totally reasonable things that were totally my job to do, because they just wanted to feel that they could manage on their own and not burden their boss. It's kind of adorable when they're really junior. I completely understand that in your case there's a special male-pride overlay of them "not bothering that young girl" but you will get a flavour of this from many subordinates, usually the most consciencious ones actually.

I tend to smile and say "well, that's what I'm here for!" or something else that is good-humoured but makes it clear that while I appreciate the sentiment my job is to supervise them/take things off their hands/call them for an update. It helps that I'm completely confident in my position - it sounds like you maybe aren't yet. This sort of thing probably won't feel as annoying when you've been in post for a while and feel more established.
posted by tinkletown at 5:06 PM on February 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


I get it. Your subordinates should totally not be "good job!"-ing you and of course they wouldn't do that if you were male and 20 years older. And it's not about texting or compliments. It quacks like sexism to me.

When I've been on the receiving end of similar, I've said 'thank you' but in the tone of voice that let them know it was not welcome or appropriate, then immediately moved on to business. Or in return to the email, I might have said something general like 'I'm sure it will be a success' (but without saying thank you, or returning a compliment). I think you handled the Sunday thing well.
posted by Dashy at 5:15 PM on February 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


I agree that all of the examples you give would be frustrating. It doesn't really take the edge off to know that they "mean well." Have you thought of reviewing video of women acting in a certain way and modeling yourself on them? Maybe this is a terrible example, but I was thinking of Anna Kendrick's character in Up In the Air. She plays a young, ambitious, hard-charging woman and her manner is somewhat humorless, icy and all-business. (In the film this makes her sort of a figure of fun, but that's neither here nor there.)

I agree with saeculorum's overall approach supplemented by this paragraph from thinkpiece's answer: "As for the pats on the shoulder, make a tight smile and step away. Keep doing a great job and work on not worrying about the reactions/responses. It's really hard, but you can do it. This is exactly what the issue is with women pushing up through the glass ceiling. You have to fake smile, not worry about making the men reporting to you comfortable, and continue to kick ass."
posted by jayder at 5:19 PM on February 3, 2014


Okay, I was waiting for the horrible comments as well.

This "I'm their superior, they shouldn't be complimenting me" is a thing for the dark ages (or a highly hierarchical old-school organisation). Things have changed. People should give compliments when they're deserved. People should be generally concerned about the welfare of the people they work with. None of this undermines you.
posted by heyjude at 5:21 PM on February 3, 2014 [18 favorites]


I agree with @heyjude here. I can see how you think it's slightly condescending but I would make the same comments to my manager. She's female and I am female as well.

These are unfortunately not the kind where you can call it out explicitly as sexist, but keep on simply responding in the same way you currently are.

I find a lot of interactions are two sided. Not "blaming" you here, but are there other things you are doing that invites such interaction? Texting is one. Talking about your boyfriend is another. Even how you dress.

Think carefully / observe how other people in your company are doing it. If you want to be more formal, sometimes you have to initiate it.
posted by pando11 at 5:33 PM on February 3, 2014


Just a thought, but maybe it actually seems like you come across as a bit harried, overworked and hard-going in pushing yourself and demanding a lot from yourself - even if none of that is true, it might come across that way - and people might naturally feel the need to tell you you're doing great, that you don't need to worry so much, and this is how they convey it. I don't know if that's appropriate for your particular dynamic, but it might come from a more-or-less innocent place. I know there are times when I don't think I'm projecting that I'm over-stressed and concentrating way too much on work, but other people can totally sense it.
posted by naju at 5:34 PM on February 3, 2014 [9 favorites]


I think it's obvious from the answers here there's a bit of a gap in the expectations people have as far as communications with a superior goes. I work in communications and everyone communicates via text. I have for sure told my (male, older) boss that he was working too much and/or that he was doing a great job on whatever he was doing a great job on.

I'll be honest, if I got a "the work doesn't stop" or "I know this will be a successful project. Please cc me when you submit it this week" message, I would feel like I was the one being condescended to. Especially after complimenting my boss on what a fantastic job they did.

There's clearly differing expectations between you and your reports as to what is and isn't acceptable to say, and as the boss you get to make the rules. I think you should try to keep in mind, however, that different people have different expectations, and they might be actually just complimenting you when they say "you did a fantastic job".
posted by Jairus at 5:39 PM on February 3, 2014 [17 favorites]


You haven't been asked to get the coffee, type up the agenda, take notes at the meeting or any of the other, serious nonsense I had to put up with in my career.

I honestly don't think anyone is trying to minimalize or marginalize you. The guy who told you not to work on Sunday was actually saying, "I don't want to work on Sunday!" Which is his right.

Your folks complimenting you isn't patronizing, it's NICE! They genuinely enjoy working with you and appreciate your contribution. Trust me, if they didn't appreciate you, they wouldn't say ANYTHING, or they'd be assholes.

The other thing is, even if it comes off condiscending, take it in earnest and keep on keeping on. In the grand scheme of things, if you think people are being petty with you, be magnanimous with them.

Hang in there!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:56 PM on February 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


If I'm reading this right, these men are much older than you, and you are their boss.

A "great job on this draft, boss!" from someone who was your age would definitely raise my hackles. But the age difference makes me think it's not so bad. These guys have been around for a long time. In some cases, they have probably made a conscious decision to stay where they are rather than trying to rise up to your level. So while they may be subordinate to you, they probably feel -- and are somewhat justified in feeling -- like they have some wisdom to impart to you, or can help you along. Bringing up their kids may be a way for them to relate to you, and for some people maybe even a way to show that they're feeling fatherly towards you. Now, you may prefer that they treat you exactly as they would any other colleague, but since you're consistently getting great reviews from your employees, it doesn't seem like a problem.

I think you're handling it the right way -- by being firm and continuing to be professional, so that it's clear that you're not accepting that "daughter" role, but you're also not playing the boss card and being ice-cold.
posted by chickenmagazine at 5:59 PM on February 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


I don't know where you are located but being irritatingly dopey-work-friendly is par for the course where I am currently working. It reads more like they are awkwardly sucking up to you rather than trying to diminish you. The first guy actually seems like he's hoping you agree with him to take it easy on Sundays. This "style" of interaction personally drives me nuts, but I'm not sure one can do much about it.
posted by BabeTheBlueOX at 6:00 PM on February 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


POV: 60-year-old man working under a 45-year old woman. We have a pretty strong mutual respect, which might not be the case for all. (And I've got a bit of mgmt experience).

1) "Good job, boss!"
I very rarely say anything like this. So an underlings thinks his boss is doing a good job ... so what? If he thought otherwise, would he say 'Poor job, boss!' As somebody said above, your mission is not known to them.
Still, now and again, after a mtg or conference call, I might shake my head in admiration and say 'Good.' If I mean it.

2) Work schedule.
"It is Sunday! Turn off your phone and relax!!" Are you kidding? I cannot imagine saying that to anybody at my company, whether above, below, or parallel to me in the hierarchy. Even less can I imagine continuing the conversation, as appears to have happened in your example. What possible place do I have in recommending what a coworker, not to mention my boss, needs to do in order to meet the demands of their job? That's not just condescending. It's silly and off the bus.
posted by LonnieK at 6:07 PM on February 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


I think the three comments the OP used as examples ARE inappropriate because they are implicitly placing the subordinate in a position of judgment over her. That's offensive. Depending on context, it could be a passive-aggressive way of knocking her down a peg or two when she tries to assert her authority. And that's inappropriate.

My mother, from her years in HR management, had the philosophy that "there is a way to address any behavior that is a problem." And these people's comments are a problem.

The challenge that I see is that so much of personal interaction is affected by a rather large background of cultural garbage such as the way paternalistic older men behave toward a young petite woman, versus how they treat a man who intimidates them. Would they be condescendingly telling their boss Steve Ballmer that he a great job on his markup of a document, when he asks about the status? Hell no. For that matter, do you think her male underlings engage in this sappy condescension to Hillary Clinton? Again, hell no.

This is really about respect, and I think their too-familiar glad handing and compliment-giving are a symptom of a sexism problem within the work culture. If you were to say the following, would your company support you? "Bob, my corrections on that document were things for you to fix, you are being inappropriate when you tell me I did a 'great job' on them; it's for me to tell you whether you did a good job or not." I think SOMETHING along those lines need to be said. The way I interpret the "you did a great job on those corrections" is an attempt to take power away from you; it's tantamount to "you're so cute when you're angry," or "you're cute when you're so serious about work."

Perhaps you can say "Bob, please don't compliment my corrections, I the manager, not you. I just need you to get it done and get it back to me."
posted by jayder at 6:08 PM on February 3, 2014 [15 favorites]


As the OP says, it's subtle, but this stuff is definitely not quite right. Each of these comments in isolation would be pretty much okay - it's the pattern that's the problem. And I don't think it's any kind of catastrophe or something that will spiral out of control or anything, but that doesn't make it totally okay.

"You're doing a fantastic job", taken literally is like he's evaluating your performance, which is the supervisor's job, not the subordinate's. And not literally, it's some general encouragement, which also, is something a supervisor will more often give to underlings than the other way around. It's certainly very different from "Your feedback on my draft was helpful"

I think in some cases you might be able to use this to remind people of your organizational position. To general "good job" type comments, you can say something like "Thanks, I've got a good team working for me".
posted by aubilenon at 6:10 PM on February 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


One more comment from me ... For some reason the "good job on the corrections" thing really rustles my jimmies.

It would be kind of like, if you manage a restaurant and you told someone under you, "the kitchen is a mess. I want you to stack the plates in four neat stacks like I've showed you before, straighten up the napkin bin, wipe off the salt and pepper shakers and then sweep under that table."

Then you ask later, "have you finished those things I asked you to do?"

"Oh I'll get to it before I leave. But you did a really good job telling me all those things to do."

WTF?

If you will not be supported by your company on reining in these sexist, condescending comments, I think the problem is as much with an out of control culture of good-ole-boyism as it is with any individual employee.
posted by jayder at 6:32 PM on February 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


I suspect the answers you get are going to vary wildly unless you come out and tell us what you do for a living.

Two questions: when you say these people are old enough to be your parents and grandparents, does that mean they've been doing their jobs longer than you've been alive? And, in your field, does that kind of experience mean these people are masters of their craft or does it mean these people got passed over decade after decade?

I can think of some "male-dominated, physical lines of work" that have a sort of dual track where you can either jump up into management or stay in a technical/field/line role, whatever the terminology is. Probably the most familiar example in popular culture is the newly commissioned second lieutenant who nominally outranks his sergeant. If that's your situation, I would imagine that a certain amount of managing up is expected and desirable.
posted by d. z. wang at 7:01 PM on February 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Frustrating. So to me, it sounds like you're letting these people reframe the interaction, and then you're following along. Take your first example - you opened the conversation with the status update as the topic, and right away your subordinate changed the subject to weekend relaxation. You let him control the conversation. That might have something to do with why he feels comfortable putting himself on equal footing or actually even above you, as evidenced by him praising you for being as dedicated as he is, though not quite yet having reached his level of wisdom. Did you ever get a status update about the project during that conversation?

Second example - it seems like your subordinate's praise put you a little on the back foot. Echoing that praise back at him, whether you had actually meant to mention it to him or not, could have come across as letting him set the terms of the conversation.

My advice is to think about what you expect to get out of an interaction before you open it, set clear expectations for your employee, and then keep redirecting the interaction back to that goal until you get there. Act as though their conversational detours are irrelevant to your aims, as in fact they are, and roll right on through. You'll get better with practice, but so will the people who work under you as they come to see you as actively controlling the employer-employee dynamic.
posted by pajamazon at 7:19 PM on February 3, 2014 [7 favorites]


OK. So the comments are a bit condescending, I can see your point. But so what? Are they otherwise acting in a way that indicates that they don't respect your opinion?

I would be cautious "correcting" this behavior just because it rankles you. First of all, the idea that a leader doesn't need to please her reports is so old school I don't even know what to say. Your success relies on the success of your reports, as I'm sure you are aware. So before you go crazy correcting this behavior, ask yourself if there is truly something to be gained by correcting it. Are they going to respect you more? Be happier at their job? Be more productive? Is the company going to produce better results? You may not think it's appropriate to tell a superior they did a good job, but I certainly do, and I love it when my reports compliment me on something I did. You're doing the right thing, saying thank you. Now, if you are uncomfortable being touched when they say it, I think it's appropriate to request that they not do that, but a report complimenting you on your work, just take it at face value: they like what you did and they're telling you so.

But, here is one piece of feedback that might help cut this off. Are you complimenting them proactively? If you believe that compliments should be directed top-down, but you don't deliver them liberally, why not? Next time, when you think a draft is good but just needs some corrections, say that when you deliver the corrections, not when you check in after they thanked you for the feedback. Then you are clearly showing: I am the boss, I evaluate your work and BTW I think this is good. Thank you for delivering such good work to me! When you make it clear over and over again that you are the one doing the evaluating (both privately and publicly, but keep the public stuff positive), I suspect those "good job" comments will start to be replaced with "Thank you for helping me", which is the more appropriate response when your boss helps you with something.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:30 PM on February 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


I agree that these remarks are mildly and subtly condescending. But, being over 50 myself, I can see things from the point of view of the guys making them. I tend to agree with chickenmagazine that if these guys are older than you are and have been at your workplace for longer they're probably justified in feeling they know some things you don't. You shouldn't assume you're smarter or more competent than they are just because you're the boss and you shouldn't expect them to treat you as if you were.

It doesn't sound like they're resisting being managed by you or lack respect for your managerial ability; they're just not acting as if they see themselves as inferior to you. The fact is, no matter how mature and boss-like you act, it's not realistic to think that guys 30 years older than you aren't going to see you as a younger, less experienced person, because that's exactly what you are. You need to respect their experience and skills as much as you expect them to respect you. Failing to do that in an attempt to make yourself more respected can make you look like an immature jerk. Responding as jayder suggests, for instance, would just make you seem like an insecure kid to me.
posted by Redstart at 7:33 PM on February 3, 2014 [10 favorites]


I agre with HeyJude. Are they doing their work? Do they do what you say? Do they treat you with disrespect? Are you constantly having to chase them up/ask for things/pursue followups?

"You did a great job," is not treating you with disrespect necessarily. It's simply a fact; they may be saying it from a place of awe; (soandso is so awesome and does good work) or they may be being condescending. It's hard to gauge on a text.

Where I work, we often compliment our managers. I'd totally say 'great job on x' to a superior (regardless of gender) because that's the kind of camaraderie our workplace affords. There are some people that treat me very much like a subordinate and let me know it-- but, I don't tend to like them, and I certainly don't do my best work in that circumstance. I personally think rigid hierarchy is kind of damaging, although the reverse is true too. It's a balance.

I agree with the people who said take it out of text; it's too informal. If you want to be treated more professionally, all you can do is act more professionally. Know when to be friendly and concede the small comments, and when to be all business.

Generally, to be all business, you just need to be more assertive. Don't apologize for giving people their job to do, don't say, 'sorry' or 'please' -- be friendly but unyielding. In the case of the Sunday text, I'd never say 'have a good weekend,' after he told me to go home. 'That's not possible. I need the update on the ____ case." If he insisted, I'd just repeat it.That's depending on whether it's fair or not to contact someone on their day off (were they sick? or did they usually work it but plan leave? Or did they just not show?) his reaction may have been annoyance based on that-- even if he was scheduled to work it, if he'd been approved for time off, it's a pain to be contacted on a day you have off.

And pick your battles. Ask yourself what exactly you want. Do you want them to do better work? Do you want them to respond to your commands more? Work harder when you tell them to do something? These are valid wants. "I'm the superior and they should respect me and yield to me and not put me on their level!!" imo, is not a valid want, regardless of gender. I think respect goes both ways.
posted by Dimes at 7:44 PM on February 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


I just want to say that if you are the type of boss that does not appreciate these comments you must let it be known somehow someway. Not playing devil's advocate, and this is perhaps because I am younger, these are all things I would say. I have told my boss "Good Job" on occasion and probably will in the future. I always double-think absolutely everything so I wouldn't fault you for thinking about each and every interaction but I think part of being a boss is realizing that not everyone is going to be happy a 100% of the time (including yourself), if the situation is working to your advantage ensure to get your message across as needed but do not be surprised if some people don't like it (people like me I would venture).....those people shouldn't be reporting to you anyway.
posted by The1andonly at 7:46 PM on February 3, 2014


There's a lot to chew on here. I hear jayder and Redstart, but overall jayder's take seems best. The analogy of the restaurant tasks is good -- who on earth would say such a thing, right? Well, why is an office different?
There may be many different views on business tactics, jobs, etc, but acting professionally is a minimum requirement for any organization I'd want to work for, and probably most other people. 'Good job, boss!' steps outside that.
posted by LonnieK at 7:49 PM on February 3, 2014


By the way, the 'the work doesn't stop!' seemed like a passive aggressive dig to me, slightly. It made it seem like you were saying; 'Neat. While you chose to be at home on a day you're supposed to work, I am here working because work doesn't go away, but have a good day off!' I can get why you were frustrated at his 'go home' comment, but, don't stoop to his level. Just respond professionally. That includes not making obvious that you frown upon the fact he wasn't at work a day he normally works.
posted by Dimes at 7:50 PM on February 3, 2014 [6 favorites]


I am a female in a male-dominated profession and I make those types of comments to my (female, junior-in-age) boss all the time. The working on Sunday thing is because I am sending a signal to the boss that I value my free time and she shouldn't expect _me_ to work on my days off (and if she does expect me to work her insane hours, it's her chance to tell me). The doing a good job thing is because she is doing a freaking good job and is excellent at what she does and (plus!) she caught all my stupid mistakes in that report she just edited. Apparently, I just need to be more direct in what I am trying to say.
posted by ch3ch2oh at 7:51 PM on February 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


Unless I'm misreading the OP, the employee in question was NOT being asked to work on a day off. It was a workday. I don't know how else to read the graf that starts "I typically work some on weekends ... "
And the employee was gloating about not working, and urging his/her boss to do the same.
Am I missing something? Like I said, I can't imagine doing that.
posted by LonnieK at 8:00 PM on February 3, 2014


From my perspective you need to unclench a little. None of this is disrespectful. Clumsy, maybe but not disrespectful. Save your ire for when it counts.

Oh, and in my job my boss texts me. And many of the realtors I deal with use text quite a bit. Much depends on the type of work, but these days, at least in my field, texting happens.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:01 PM on February 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


The "good job on the comments" part doesn't bother me a bit - in fact, it comes across to me as the equivalent of being "thank you for being so clear about what you liked/didn't like/needed changed/whatever - it made it easy for me to do what I need to do to get it complete."

The rest - well, I'd say it depends on the particular situation and dynamics, but I've certainly told a boss or three to get some rest / go home and take a nap / thank you for finally getting rid of that useless coworker / etc. That's par for the course when you're on a friendly, comfortable basis. Of course, it's always possible that one doesn't wish to buy into that dynamic - but it might not go over well, especially if that's typical for that employer.

In short, you might have a little bit of a point, but in large part, I think you're over-reacting. A bit too much expectation of problems, so that when they're not in existence to the extent anticipated, the chip [on your shoulder] is manufacturing them?
posted by stormyteal at 8:08 PM on February 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


You are not imagining this -- if you were a man, and older, you wouldn't be getting these comments. Whoever upthread said Steve Ballmer wouldn't get comments like these is exactly correct.

There's a ton of research that shows women in management positions are perceived very differently from men, even when we behave the same way. Women are perceived as less friendly, more "uptight," more demanding, less competent, angrier, more volatile, more emotional, and so on.

In my roughly 15 years as a boss, I've had many experiences similar to what you describe, particularly the one about working Sunday. Many, many older men have pushed back on me in similar situations -- saying things I found inappropriately fatherly/patronizing like "Young people don't have a sense of proportion: it's only later on that they learn the importance of balance” and "One thing you'll learn is that the work is always there. It doesn't make sense to get too worked up over it." No woman has ever said anything like that to me.

I have a very competent friend whose direct reports find her insufficiently warm. They complained to HR. Not that she was doing anything objectively wrong or inappropriate, just that they wanted her to be nicer. HR, astonishingly to me, advised her to bring in home-baked cookies to team meetings, to "soften" her image. I just can't imagine a male manager being advised to do that.

Anyway, I don't have any great advice for you. This will diminish a little over time as you get older, but it'll never completely go away. I'd suggest you make your peace with it. Just stay focused on being a good manager and getting what you need from your direct reports, and ignore this weird aspect of the job. It's noise in their heads: it's got nothing to do with you or your actions.
posted by Susan PG at 8:18 PM on February 3, 2014 [8 favorites]


At first I was like "Hm, the first one would definitely irk, and the second one [in context] is a bit odd? But compliments? Man I'd love some of those. Haven't I had similar conversations, both as a subordinate and with a subordinate?"

But really, there's something about this that also struck me as "not quite right," and I realized that my initial reaction of is really based on the fact that I have gotten much more blatantly sexist, ageist, or otherwise condescending remarks in the work place. The subtle stuff seems almost preferable to when you're trying to manage a meeting and someone asks if "the girl" can run copies or something.

My only suggestion is that you may need a new approach, regarding the first example. Less defensiveness, more authority.
posted by sm1tten at 8:19 PM on February 3, 2014


Leaving aside any question of which of the comments are condescending and which are not, because that's a big tangled ball of yarn, I agree with the others who have said that it would help to stop texting so much. To these guys it probably comes off as inherently non-professional. I don't mean unprofessional but non-professional as in they take it as a kind of friendly barely work related chat between people rather than a professional correspondence between colleagues or boss/subordinate.

So not doing so much texting in a professional context might well help. Texting just isn't done in a professional context for most people who aren't really young.
posted by Justinian at 8:29 PM on February 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm a bit put off by the way everyone is weighing in on whether or not the comments are offensive. That is not the question. She has said they are offensive, diminishing and condescending. The question is how she should respond.
posted by jayder at 8:33 PM on February 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


This is a followup from the anonymous OP:
OP here. Since it seems like a derail, only the first example was communicated via text. Second one was email, third ones are in person. My workplace uses IM and texting on a very regular basis.

In the first instance, my employee was scheduled to work and was being paid to work on the Sunday. I was texting him during his work day. Sunday is one of my regularly scheduled days off. Of the two of us, I was the only one communicating/working on my off time.

All of the examples included different people.

Though I am certainly far from the oldest in my workplace, I am generally considered one of the most experienced in my specialist field. It is not the military or any other similar "managing up" organization but it is a traditional, fairly hide-bound organization which is slow to adapt to change.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:36 PM on February 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


"Good job on the corrections" and "Thank you for the corrections" are not equivalent. One is appropriate to say to a supervisor, one is not.

"You did a fantastic job!!" is what I would say to someone I supervise after asking them to make edits, or even to a colleague whom I asked to make edits as a favor.

Unsolicited "You're doing a great jobs" and physical contact sounds like they think Anon is walking around insecure, aching for validation, unsure of herself and her capabilities. Especially from non-supervisors. I can't even imagine witnessing such a scenario. There are other ways to compliment the work of a supervisor, or even an equal colleague.

If it were me, I'd just spin it all back at them: reject and ignore anything that is trying to be an inappropriate comment about you and rephrase and reiterate what you're needing from them.

"Hey li'l darlin', you're doing a great job!"
"Aw thanks, so are you!" (in a voice like you'd use when your 6 year old brought home a finger painting)

"It is Sunday! Turn off your phone and relax!!"
"Oh my goodness, my mistake, I thought you were on call today. Please let me know the status of xyz when you're back at work."

"I like that you are as dedicated to the job as I am...but one thing I learned is you need time away to keep your sanity. Knock off for the day."
[If you're not responsible for his schedule] "Okay, well if you're knocking off today, please just let me know the status of xyz when you're back at work."
[If you are responsible for his schedule] "Yep, there's nothing wrong with taking a mental health day. Just let me know the status of xyz when you're back at work, and don't forget to get me a copy of your PTO request for today. Enjoy!"

"We're nearly done with it. You did a fantastic job!!!"
"Let me know if you need additional explanation about any of my corrections. Do you have an ETA?"

I also once read on AskMefi someone else's great advice about inappropriate touch from a male coworker; he'd grab her from behind to physically move her out of the way, either to pass by or to make room in a conversation circle. She screamed and then loudly said "Oh sorry, I just get very startled when people grab me from behind unexpectedly."
posted by thebazilist at 8:51 PM on February 3, 2014 [10 favorites]


I think this is what feminists are referring to when they talk about microaggressions and microinvalidations.

I'd suggest establishing yourself as more empowered outside of the interactions you described. One thing that comes to mind is this article about not saying please, thank you, or sorry in emails and how doing away with those words made an immediate difference for the author in terms of getting more respect.

As for complements along the lines of, "You did a great job on that," try, "I know," possibly with "and a lot of that is thanks to the great people I have working under me" or something along those lines. This takes the complementer out of a position of power to validate you, re-establishes your authority, makes you look like a good boss for acknowledging your team, and doesn't make a scene.
posted by alphanerd at 9:11 PM on February 3, 2014 [6 favorites]


When a supervisor checks in on an employee to ask for a status update on their work, and the employee's response is "good job on doing your part, boss!," that's pretty inappropriate. There are all kinds of circumstances in which it is appropriate to compliment or thank your boss for their effort, but not in lieu of taking responsibility for their own work, which is what this sounds like.

In your circumstance, you're getting this from older workers, but in a different field you'd likely be getting it from younger ones as well. Would it help you to keep your cool if you approach this as a more universal "supervisory skills/team leading" issue? (I'm not saying that there's not a sexism problem here or that you shouldn't be personally irked, but I think sometimes it's hard to react in the desired way in the moment with those issues at the forefront of your mind.)
posted by desuetude at 9:52 PM on February 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


I really love thebazilist's scripts for deftly asserting your position and power. Much, much better than the ham-handed stuff I suggested in my comments.
posted by jayder at 9:54 PM on February 3, 2014


Just a thought, but maybe it actually seems like you come across as a bit harried, overworked and hard-going in pushing yourself and demanding a lot from yourself - even if none of that is true, it might come across that way - and people might naturally feel the need to tell you you're doing great, that you don't need to worry so much, and this is how they convey it.
Seconding this.

I think they may be trying to be protective of you. If you are coming in every weekend--maybe getting just one complete day off per week--then you are literally over-worked. They may see you as struggling to keep up and trying to either give you encouragement, or let you know that the work culture there doesn't require people to work 6 days a week for a five-days-a-week job.

Are you salaried and therefore volunteering these Sunday hours?
posted by blueberry at 9:57 PM on February 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


If you don't like them touching you tell them point blank to stop.
posted by brujita at 10:20 PM on February 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


I think the best thing to do is to clarify your intention.

If is telling you to relax when he is supposed to be working, I would simply clarify that he was supposed to be on the job and that you expected xyz product by abc date. Don't address the relax comment, as it's none of his business what emotions you have. It's like obnoxious men telling you to smile because your appearance is more valuable to them than your right to express your emotions. Just ignore it.

For the "good job" comment...whatever. Ignore that too. Just say, "Thank you. But I think you missed the pdq on the foo again."

As for the touching, tell them that you don't like being touched in that way and to please stop it.
posted by 3491again at 10:32 PM on February 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


I should note - I never get these kinds of comments from my supervisors. They are happy with me and my competence, but never suggest I stop working on Sundays, etc.

Well of course not, you're working for them. But the people you manage are seeing your erosion of scheduled time off and, if they are like me, are worried that eventually you will use the example of your own inability to turn off to justify asking them to do something on their day off ("I never ask for something I wouldn't do myself!"). They're just a little more direct than me so they are telling you this instead of letting it build into a massive grudge that flares up every time I get an email from him on Sunday afternoon or midday on Thanksgiving, for Christs sake. If you must work on days off, try and do something that is invisible to your employees.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 1:15 AM on February 4, 2014 [6 favorites]


I am sort of your counterpoint: a very big man, in a traditionally female profession (with its own very dyed-in-the-wool traditions), with a lot of experience, a lot of success, and a great deal of supervisory authority at a young age.
I have had literally all of these same interactions, many times over, with my much-older female subordinates. Some were absolutely attempts to undermine, but not many. And those that were came from committed malcontents who were easily identified. The rest were mostly friendly interactions with people who liked me, felt supported by me, and felt like they had access to me. In my line of work, that's a feature, not a bug.
It sounds to me like you convey, without forcing it, enough authority in your field to not have to be a completely distant, frosty boss to keep your subordinates doing what they need to be doing. I doubt you'll gain much from laying down the law to perceived slights, but you may well have much to lose.
posted by willpie at 7:49 AM on February 4, 2014 [3 favorites]


Well here's my 2 cents for each of your examples:
1. Sunday phone guy - This is inappropriate. It sounds like he's fiddling and trying ot blow you off because he doesn't have an update on thing. You should address this as an issue with handling workloads appropriately and let this person know that they should be providing you with updates when asked, regardless of whether you are officially scheduled and working or not.

2. Draft Corrections guy - This seems pretty harmless to me. It comes off as a fumbled attempt to brown nose a little bit, like he was trying to say "thank you for the corrections / feedback" and it got misconstrued due to poor word choice.

3. Doing a Great Job people - need more info / case by case basis. Whats wrong with your peers telling you, of fewest years and tenure, that you're doing a good job? For subordinates saying the same thing, have some of them been working much longer than you and suffered through the reigns of sucky bosses (in which telling you you're doing a good job is a compliment to your leadership)? Or are they trying to make it like regardless of title, they are the real boss due to age and employment seniority. CAn't tell which form the info given, but it would do you some good to evaluate what angles these comments could be coming from, both good and bad.
posted by WeekendJen at 10:55 AM on February 4, 2014


I 1000% agree that they are being completely patronizing and inappropriate with you. And it seems like you are responding with people-pleasing behavior. You should not add cutesy 'Have a good weekend' stuff in my opinion. Everything you write shows they are belittling you, and asserting their power in relation to you... giving judgement about how you spend your time, judgement about how you are doing your job (and it has an air of 'mansplaining' about it--they are explaining your own experience and job performance and choices to you.) Of course you feel like this is inappropriate.

However, in my opinion the way to curb this is to not be afraid to stand your ground. You don't have to be 'nice' or use exclamation points, or friendly comments to smooth things over in the face of their belittling behavior. I agree with the icy stare, and letting their bullshit hang in the air embarrassingly (for them.) Because you are the boss. If you can't imagine them treating a man in your position in this same way, then something is not right.

I know diplomacy plays a role here, and there is inter-office politics to take into account when addressing this, but the heart of this issue does not doesn't seem very ambiguous to me at all. (And I am finding it very hard to imagine someone thinking 'that's all?' when reading about the interactions you described. But I am seeing a lot of 'take the compliment' stuff, and 'stop overreacting,' victim-blaming stuff, which I am frankly shocked by.)
posted by thegreatfleecircus at 12:15 PM on February 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


1) Something to never forget: The company and you (as a leader in same) are buying people's labor and not their soul. If you use that as a fulcrum from which you lever your workplace interactions, then a lot of the workplace drama/soap opera stuff doesn't flourish.

2) If some folks are clearly being condescending you have two broad options: If it seems harmless then you can ignore it; if it seems malicious, then you get into a private room with the offender and say: "Knock it off."

3) If this sort of attitude comes from a few individuals then the problem is with the individuals. If this sort of attitude comes from a wide range of folks then likely some combo of your corporate culture is part of the problem and/or you are part of the problem.

4) If you do not presently have a thick skin, get one.

5) Shit rolls downhill and those who live in the valley are acutely aware of this fact. The difference between a good boss and a great boss is that the great boss understands this and constructively protects and encourages those downhill while still accomplishing the tasks at hand at a high level. If this is so, then any compliments coming from "below" are probably genuine.
posted by CincyBlues at 12:39 PM on February 4, 2014


"It is Sunday! Turn off your phone and relax!!" is , IMHO, just code for "Hey, it Sunday and the boss isn't supposed to be around to hassle me on a Sunday."
So there's that.
posted by SLC Mom at 1:22 PM on February 4, 2014


I am a female in a male dominated field, in management. For much of my career, I have been the youngest or among the youngest in my position. I was the first woman promoted to a first level engineering management position in a 2000+ person site -- that was my first management job.

I agree with the posters that say these comments are condescending.

Although I do not like the title and I don't actually follow all of the advice, I think "Play Like a Man, Win Like a Woman" is worth reading, especially for someone in your situation.
posted by elmay at 2:24 PM on February 4, 2014


I'm surprised how many MeFites are failing to read the OP's posts.

"Whats wrong with your peers telling you, of fewest years and tenure ..."
The post was about subordinates, not peers. If you did read the post, then that word does not mean what you think it means.

"The guy who told you not to work on Sunday was actually saying, 'I don't want to work on Sunday!' Which is his right."
No. This was a scheduled workday. If he doesn't want to work the job's hours, he has rights: quit, organize a union, write an article for The Atlantic. But playing hooky and expecting immunity are not "rights."

One last note: I'm thankful my boss acts professionally. I do too. If either of us has a problem with the other's actions, we discuss it -- yes, it happens occasionally. But neither of us would promote, or tolerate, these kinds of things.
posted by LonnieK at 4:21 PM on February 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


However, in my opinion the way to curb this is to not be afraid to stand your ground.

Bad advice, sorry. OP, I'm telling you from personal experience and the experience of my female manager friends, if you do this you will be criticized as one or more of the following: defensive/insecure, inexperienced/incompetent/in-over-your-head, prim/uptight/rigid/humorless/a bitch, egotistical/power-mad/hierarchy-obsessive, etc. ... you get the picture. You're already seeing it right here in this thread :-/

Seriously, as much as possible let this wash over you. Maybe do a little sleek reframing as suggested upthread by alphanerd. But in general pick your battles. This one is just not that significant, and you're honestly not well-positioned to win it.
posted by Susan PG at 9:09 PM on February 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


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