Is it normal for your friends to make snide comments about your SO?
January 19, 2014 7:18 AM Subscribe
I've lost 2 different friends because I've asked them to stop making snide remarks about someone I was dating. It makes me wonder if this is normal in friendships and I should just suck it up?
Backstory: I have social anxiety, I didn't have many friends growing up and I'm not too familiar with social protocol.
My friends tend to make fun of people I'm dating and I don't like it. Expressing concerns is fine, and they do that too, but I also get comments like "Hey, how's Asshole?" or "Hey, how's douchebag?"
Late last year someone I'd known stopped talking to me completely because I said something about being worried my partner at the time was bored with me and he said, "Guess you go for immature jerks," which was just one of many comments he'd made about the person I was seeing at the time. To which I responded, "Um. Wow. Not cool." He blocked me on everything after that and I never heard of him again.
I generally won't even talk about SO's at all if it gets to that point, but they'll still bring them up using the phrases I've mentioned above. It's especially frustrating because I've kept my mouth shut and generally try to be respectful of whatever questionable people they tend to date (until they break up that is...)
Most recently, someone I was just starting to become friends with had an assessment of current SO and was talking about how he wasn't right for me and why. We talked about it for a little bit, then the next evening we were talking about when we free to hang out next and he said something like "I'd come over tonight but you're probably busy with the beta male lol," and I responded "Could you please stop talking about him like that? Thanks." He said, "My sincerest apologies" and that was the last I heard from him. That last comment was in addition to comments about how I should let him know when I was ready for a real man etc.
I told SO the abridged version of why new-friend was no longer speaking to me and he said I should have been more playful in my responses and less curt, and shouldn't have cut the conversation off like that. Is he right? Should I take things like this in more stride? I have been told I can be very blunt and maybe I came off harsher than I assumed in my responses. SO also mused about how my friends found it acceptable to hit on me right in front of him, but I don't think he connected it to how I felt - which is that my friends have a fundamental lack of respect for my relationships. But... I don't want new SO to think I take things too seriously when they shouldn't be, because I know that isn't me at all.
But given the difficulty I have making friends, if this is just OK and I should just suck it up, I can and will do so to preserve future friendships.
Backstory: I have social anxiety, I didn't have many friends growing up and I'm not too familiar with social protocol.
My friends tend to make fun of people I'm dating and I don't like it. Expressing concerns is fine, and they do that too, but I also get comments like "Hey, how's Asshole?" or "Hey, how's douchebag?"
Late last year someone I'd known stopped talking to me completely because I said something about being worried my partner at the time was bored with me and he said, "Guess you go for immature jerks," which was just one of many comments he'd made about the person I was seeing at the time. To which I responded, "Um. Wow. Not cool." He blocked me on everything after that and I never heard of him again.
I generally won't even talk about SO's at all if it gets to that point, but they'll still bring them up using the phrases I've mentioned above. It's especially frustrating because I've kept my mouth shut and generally try to be respectful of whatever questionable people they tend to date (until they break up that is...)
Most recently, someone I was just starting to become friends with had an assessment of current SO and was talking about how he wasn't right for me and why. We talked about it for a little bit, then the next evening we were talking about when we free to hang out next and he said something like "I'd come over tonight but you're probably busy with the beta male lol," and I responded "Could you please stop talking about him like that? Thanks." He said, "My sincerest apologies" and that was the last I heard from him. That last comment was in addition to comments about how I should let him know when I was ready for a real man etc.
I told SO the abridged version of why new-friend was no longer speaking to me and he said I should have been more playful in my responses and less curt, and shouldn't have cut the conversation off like that. Is he right? Should I take things like this in more stride? I have been told I can be very blunt and maybe I came off harsher than I assumed in my responses. SO also mused about how my friends found it acceptable to hit on me right in front of him, but I don't think he connected it to how I felt - which is that my friends have a fundamental lack of respect for my relationships. But... I don't want new SO to think I take things too seriously when they shouldn't be, because I know that isn't me at all.
But given the difficulty I have making friends, if this is just OK and I should just suck it up, I can and will do so to preserve future friendships.
Best answer: SO also mused about how my friends found it acceptable to hit on me right in front of him
Your SO has the right of it. Neither of these people sound like they were your friends. They do sound like they want to date you, though.
posted by killdevil at 7:24 AM on January 19, 2014 [60 favorites]
Your SO has the right of it. Neither of these people sound like they were your friends. They do sound like they want to date you, though.
posted by killdevil at 7:24 AM on January 19, 2014 [60 favorites]
Your friends aren't friends. They're guys who are pretending to be friends (barely) because they want to fuck you.
Their behavior is not okay.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:34 AM on January 19, 2014 [57 favorites]
Their behavior is not okay.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:34 AM on January 19, 2014 [57 favorites]
But given the difficulty I have making friends, if this is just OK and I should just suck it up, I can and will do so to preserve future friendships.
Absolutely do not settle for snarky sarcastic people because finding people is hard. As long as you're going through the effort of developing friendships, you might as well focus that effort on people who are kind and not judgmental. You deserve that.
For what it's worth, its possible that these non-friends did see something in your exes before you did and were just jerks about how they conveyed it to you. Don't settle for SOs just to have someone around either. In any kind of relationship, you deserve people who you feel good with.
posted by headnsouth at 7:35 AM on January 19, 2014 [4 favorites]
Absolutely do not settle for snarky sarcastic people because finding people is hard. As long as you're going through the effort of developing friendships, you might as well focus that effort on people who are kind and not judgmental. You deserve that.
For what it's worth, its possible that these non-friends did see something in your exes before you did and were just jerks about how they conveyed it to you. Don't settle for SOs just to have someone around either. In any kind of relationship, you deserve people who you feel good with.
posted by headnsouth at 7:35 AM on January 19, 2014 [4 favorites]
Some general thoughts:
Friends is a different category than people who want to date you. The latter are less likely to be objective about your current significant other.
Sometimes people date assholes but don't see the assholery through the limerence/lust. It may be that your friends are telling you that's what's happening.
If you're constantly musing about your boyfriend's boredom with you/analyzing his fit for you with friends/etc, you could be unnecessarily poisoning the well against him while presenting your relationship as appropriate conversational material.
posted by vegartanipla at 7:35 AM on January 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
Friends is a different category than people who want to date you. The latter are less likely to be objective about your current significant other.
Sometimes people date assholes but don't see the assholery through the limerence/lust. It may be that your friends are telling you that's what's happening.
If you're constantly musing about your boyfriend's boredom with you/analyzing his fit for you with friends/etc, you could be unnecessarily poisoning the well against him while presenting your relationship as appropriate conversational material.
posted by vegartanipla at 7:35 AM on January 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
That last comment was in addition to comments about how I should let him know when I was ready for a real man
SO also mused about how my friends found it acceptable to hit on me right in front of him
Those "friends" sound like Nice Guys(tm) that are hoping to date you but don't have the balls to come right out and ask; instead they passive-aggressively hint around. These are not real friends. If they friend-dumped you after you asked them to stop trash-talking your SO, they probably had an ulterior motive. Good riddance.
If you have had trouble making friends before, that might make you feel grateful when anyone wants to be your friend. Have you ignored subtle red flags from potential friends? The best thing to do if you want to make quality friends is to spread your friend-catching net wide enough that you don't feel you have to settle for crappy friends. Whether this means meet-ups, church, activity groups, or whatever is up to you; whatever you enjoy doing.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:36 AM on January 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
SO also mused about how my friends found it acceptable to hit on me right in front of him
Those "friends" sound like Nice Guys(tm) that are hoping to date you but don't have the balls to come right out and ask; instead they passive-aggressively hint around. These are not real friends. If they friend-dumped you after you asked them to stop trash-talking your SO, they probably had an ulterior motive. Good riddance.
If you have had trouble making friends before, that might make you feel grateful when anyone wants to be your friend. Have you ignored subtle red flags from potential friends? The best thing to do if you want to make quality friends is to spread your friend-catching net wide enough that you don't feel you have to settle for crappy friends. Whether this means meet-ups, church, activity groups, or whatever is up to you; whatever you enjoy doing.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:36 AM on January 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
No, real friends don't say snide comments about a significant other. Best case scenario is that they're trying to communicate that he's an asshole, or that they're working through jealousy -- but that means they're unable to communicate directly about their concern and instead have to resort to sarcasm and passive-aggression. So, not friends you'd really want to have.
If a friend you care about says something snide and you want to salvage things, try pulling them aside later and saying, "When you said "X", I felt confused and hurt. Is there something you're trying to tell me?" If they own up to having an ulterior motive, deal with it directly.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 7:36 AM on January 19, 2014
If a friend you care about says something snide and you want to salvage things, try pulling them aside later and saying, "When you said "X", I felt confused and hurt. Is there something you're trying to tell me?" If they own up to having an ulterior motive, deal with it directly.
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 7:36 AM on January 19, 2014
Best answer: friends who are men who insult the man you're dating are not being friends, they're angling for an in to date you. guys who use insults like "beta male" probably participate in pick up artist/seduction communities. these guys do not make good friends and can be dangerous to have a drink with or be alone with.
posted by nadawi at 7:38 AM on January 19, 2014 [54 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 7:38 AM on January 19, 2014 [54 favorites]
This: comments like "Hey, how's Asshole?" or "Hey, how's douchebag?"
and this: someone I was just starting to become friends with had an assessment of current SO and was talking about how he wasn't right for me and why.
are way outta line, IMO.
Your approach - generally try to be respectful of whatever questionable people they tend to date - is the way to go.
If your "friends" can't follow the Golden Rule, I don't know if you really want them as friends.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:38 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
and this: someone I was just starting to become friends with had an assessment of current SO and was talking about how he wasn't right for me and why.
are way outta line, IMO.
Your approach - generally try to be respectful of whatever questionable people they tend to date - is the way to go.
If your "friends" can't follow the Golden Rule, I don't know if you really want them as friends.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:38 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, the two possibilities here are that either those two friends were douchebags, or your SO is. It's not really going to be possible for us to judge which is the case here.
(Although... It's not entirely clear from your question, but are these friends criticizing the same SO? If so, simple numbers would seem to tilt it in favor of the SO being the problem. Worth thinking about, anyway.)
It does seem like you should maybe stop talking about your relationship problems with your friends (especially with people you're "just starting to become friends with"), as that does pretty much invite them to criticize said SO.
posted by ook at 7:39 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
(Although... It's not entirely clear from your question, but are these friends criticizing the same SO? If so, simple numbers would seem to tilt it in favor of the SO being the problem. Worth thinking about, anyway.)
It does seem like you should maybe stop talking about your relationship problems with your friends (especially with people you're "just starting to become friends with"), as that does pretty much invite them to criticize said SO.
posted by ook at 7:39 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: For whatever reason - wanting to date you, wanting to keep you on a string - these dudes were putting down your SO in the hopes [the foolish hopes!] that this would make them seem available/interesting/attentive. And because they are terrible people who don't actually want to be your [platonic] friend, once you shut that down they disappeared.
I was just thinking last night about the many terrible men friends I had in my twenties - just awful people - and wishing that I'd had the sense to have more women friends and find spaces where the gender balance and gender interactions were better. I really valued these awful, awful men who were all misogynist creepers (though generally very smart) and put up with way too much shit from them. For years! Frankly, these two guys vanishing into the night isn't a problem - it's a gift! You can replace them with other, better friends who, whatever their genders, don't have problems with women.
posted by Frowner at 7:39 AM on January 19, 2014 [39 favorites]
I was just thinking last night about the many terrible men friends I had in my twenties - just awful people - and wishing that I'd had the sense to have more women friends and find spaces where the gender balance and gender interactions were better. I really valued these awful, awful men who were all misogynist creepers (though generally very smart) and put up with way too much shit from them. For years! Frankly, these two guys vanishing into the night isn't a problem - it's a gift! You can replace them with other, better friends who, whatever their genders, don't have problems with women.
posted by Frowner at 7:39 AM on January 19, 2014 [39 favorites]
I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that your friends are the problem here. If more than one of them has made comments about not liking your SO then I think you should give some consideration to what they are saying. Maybe your friends just want to date you, that is one possibility. Or maybe the problem isn't that you make friends who are jerks but that you date people who are jerks.
Listen, I don't think anyone needs to hang around with people they don't like. I have had friends that have dated people I really did not care for. I would be gentle but honest (because that's what friends do) but then I would either do one of two things. If I valued our friendship enough I'd zip my lips and deal with it as best as I could. Or, if the friendship wasn't that important to me I would bail. Again, no one has to hang out with people they don't like and sometimes it's really tough seeing someone you care about in a relationship with someone you view as an "asshole" or a "douchebag."
posted by teamnap at 7:40 AM on January 19, 2014
Listen, I don't think anyone needs to hang around with people they don't like. I have had friends that have dated people I really did not care for. I would be gentle but honest (because that's what friends do) but then I would either do one of two things. If I valued our friendship enough I'd zip my lips and deal with it as best as I could. Or, if the friendship wasn't that important to me I would bail. Again, no one has to hang out with people they don't like and sometimes it's really tough seeing someone you care about in a relationship with someone you view as an "asshole" or a "douchebag."
posted by teamnap at 7:40 AM on January 19, 2014
the op is discussing different significant others..
...My friends tend to make fun of people I'm dating...
...my partner at the time...
...current SO...
posted by nadawi at 7:43 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
...My friends tend to make fun of people I'm dating...
...my partner at the time...
...current SO...
posted by nadawi at 7:43 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've heard you indicate 'he' indicated something about your boyfriend not being right. You've also indicated the terms asshole, douchebag, beta, real man are also in use by your friends. I can't comment on your boyfriend, but I can say you've shown you've got two friends who are rude, crude, interested in some social caste system. I use the term 'friend' very liberally here. These aren't your friends, and if they think they are - they do not have your best interest at heart. They have their own. Something about you being in a relationship with another guy is not in the best interest in your friend. Perhaps they are interested in you, perhaps they have legitimate concerns and an extremely poor sense of tact.
With that said, if these guys are saying your boyfriend is a douchebag and they have some level of reasoning which you haven't provided, it doesn't sound like that's a particularly healthy relationship to be in either. Look, what I'm saying is - these guys pretending to be your friends know douchbags and assholes very well, while I personally don't think I would strive to maintain those friendships, their potentially expert advice might make me also reevaluate my standards for those that I date - as well as my standards for those that I consider friends.
For the life of me I can't imagine someone referring to someone else as a beta, or implying themselves to be a real man without the image of somebody wearing an Ed Hardy T-shirt and a them also having a strong desire to be on a crappy reality television series. Are you all on a reality television show? Do you really want to be on one? Because there's enough drama and ego here to make one.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:48 AM on January 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
With that said, if these guys are saying your boyfriend is a douchebag and they have some level of reasoning which you haven't provided, it doesn't sound like that's a particularly healthy relationship to be in either. Look, what I'm saying is - these guys pretending to be your friends know douchbags and assholes very well, while I personally don't think I would strive to maintain those friendships, their potentially expert advice might make me also reevaluate my standards for those that I date - as well as my standards for those that I consider friends.
For the life of me I can't imagine someone referring to someone else as a beta, or implying themselves to be a real man without the image of somebody wearing an Ed Hardy T-shirt and a them also having a strong desire to be on a crappy reality television series. Are you all on a reality television show? Do you really want to be on one? Because there's enough drama and ego here to make one.
posted by Nanukthedog at 7:48 AM on January 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
Making a snide comment is one thing, dropping you as a friend is a completely diffrent one.
One of my friends was NOT a fan of an SO but when I asked the friend to cut it out the rude comments stopped and they eventually came around to liking the person I was dating. Because said friend knew it was petty to be such a jerk.
posted by missriss89 at 7:49 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
One of my friends was NOT a fan of an SO but when I asked the friend to cut it out the rude comments stopped and they eventually came around to liking the person I was dating. Because said friend knew it was petty to be such a jerk.
posted by missriss89 at 7:49 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Quick note: previous SO got the asshole comments and yeah he was one. Current SO is the one who gets the "beta male" comments; I don't consider him an ass but we haven't been dating long either.
posted by Autumn at 7:53 AM on January 19, 2014
posted by Autumn at 7:53 AM on January 19, 2014
Healthy and happy friendships don't ever involve sucking anything up. You should not tolerate this behavior from people who you call friends.
If a person doesn't respect your partner, then they don't respect you.
That said, I hear two things going on in your description of your friends.
One, I hear people giving you unsolicted and unwelcome advice and feeling quite at ease making comments that may be hurtful to you. Steer clear of people like that. It sounds like they're taking advantage of your social anxiety to feel superior and that is really shitty.
Second of all, it sounds like some of these same friends - the "new friend", for example - want to date you, and try to manipulate you into giving them a chance by putting down your SO. This is also shitty.
Stand up for what you think you deserve from friends and your partners. Make up your own mind about your actions and words. You know and understand yourself better than anyone else, and that makes you the Number 1 Advice and Approval Giver in your head.
P.S. I think your response to "new friend guy" was completely appropriate. He was being rude and selfish. It's a great thing that he stopped talking to you! He's doing you a huge favor! Really! You really don't need people like that in your life, so don't feel bad for a second more that he has exited!
posted by Locochona at 7:56 AM on January 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
If a person doesn't respect your partner, then they don't respect you.
That said, I hear two things going on in your description of your friends.
One, I hear people giving you unsolicted and unwelcome advice and feeling quite at ease making comments that may be hurtful to you. Steer clear of people like that. It sounds like they're taking advantage of your social anxiety to feel superior and that is really shitty.
Second of all, it sounds like some of these same friends - the "new friend", for example - want to date you, and try to manipulate you into giving them a chance by putting down your SO. This is also shitty.
Stand up for what you think you deserve from friends and your partners. Make up your own mind about your actions and words. You know and understand yourself better than anyone else, and that makes you the Number 1 Advice and Approval Giver in your head.
P.S. I think your response to "new friend guy" was completely appropriate. He was being rude and selfish. It's a great thing that he stopped talking to you! He's doing you a huge favor! Really! You really don't need people like that in your life, so don't feel bad for a second more that he has exited!
posted by Locochona at 7:56 AM on January 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
If a person doesn't respect your partner, then they don't respect you.
This is completely not true. You and your partners are not a package deal. I have plenty of friends with partners I think are anywhere from boring to abusive. I respect them just fine; their other halves, not so much.
It makes me wonder if this is normal in friendships and I should just suck it up?
No, it's not normal but on the other hand it isn't normal to date people who have such distinctive personality markers that others identify them as Asshole, Douchebag and Beta Male. By all means, consider the source(s) when these comments are made, particularly if they're made by people you suspect may want to date you, but also consider whether these comments are being made by people who have watched you make a series of transparently bad SO choices and are frustrated by this.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:04 AM on January 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
This is completely not true. You and your partners are not a package deal. I have plenty of friends with partners I think are anywhere from boring to abusive. I respect them just fine; their other halves, not so much.
It makes me wonder if this is normal in friendships and I should just suck it up?
No, it's not normal but on the other hand it isn't normal to date people who have such distinctive personality markers that others identify them as Asshole, Douchebag and Beta Male. By all means, consider the source(s) when these comments are made, particularly if they're made by people you suspect may want to date you, but also consider whether these comments are being made by people who have watched you make a series of transparently bad SO choices and are frustrated by this.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:04 AM on January 19, 2014 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Thanks for the follow up, that clears things up a bit.
It does seem like you should maybe stop talking about your relationship problems with your friends
So just to follow up on this, I looked at your question history a bit and your last few relationships questions you mention "talking it over with your guy friends", "complained about the ambiguity [with at-the-time SO] to two of my guy friends"... Same two friends? Or is this something you do a lot? Basically if you use people as sounding boards about something or someone, they're going to feel comfortable expressing their opinions about those things or people. It's totally fine to do that (with good friends, at least; less so at the getting-to-know-you stage) but know that you're inviting them to express their opinions by doing so.
I don't necessarily agree with all the people jumping to the conclusion that these friends are of course just bad-mouthing your SO in the hopes that you'll date them instead. I mean it's possible that that's the pattern, or it's possible that you're inviting the comments by having that type of conversation with your friends, or it's possible that you've just made a few bad relationship decisions in a row and your friends are trying to help (which at least for the first SO in question you seem to agree with now), or it's possible that it's a combination of any or all of the above.
posted by ook at 8:07 AM on January 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
It does seem like you should maybe stop talking about your relationship problems with your friends
So just to follow up on this, I looked at your question history a bit and your last few relationships questions you mention "talking it over with your guy friends", "complained about the ambiguity [with at-the-time SO] to two of my guy friends"... Same two friends? Or is this something you do a lot? Basically if you use people as sounding boards about something or someone, they're going to feel comfortable expressing their opinions about those things or people. It's totally fine to do that (with good friends, at least; less so at the getting-to-know-you stage) but know that you're inviting them to express their opinions by doing so.
I don't necessarily agree with all the people jumping to the conclusion that these friends are of course just bad-mouthing your SO in the hopes that you'll date them instead. I mean it's possible that that's the pattern, or it's possible that you're inviting the comments by having that type of conversation with your friends, or it's possible that you've just made a few bad relationship decisions in a row and your friends are trying to help (which at least for the first SO in question you seem to agree with now), or it's possible that it's a combination of any or all of the above.
posted by ook at 8:07 AM on January 19, 2014 [6 favorites]
Came to say what J Wilson said. These guys are not true friends, you're better off without them, and congrats on keeping good boundaries.
posted by windykites at 8:10 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by windykites at 8:10 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: By all means, consider the source(s) when these comments are made, particularly if they're made by people you suspect may want to date you, but also consider whether these comments are being made by people who have watched you make a series of transparently bad SO choices and are frustrated by this.
This was my takeaway also. There are a few things that I think you need to consider individually and then consider how they may affect each other.
1. It's not okay for people to be trashing your partners - it's fine to tell them to stop
2. People who want to date you might do that out of some competitive interest - it's probably wise to be more mindful of this, people who may be into you may make bad confidantes for this reason
3. People who care about you might do that because of bad choices you've made in the past and they are concerned or are trying some sort of tough love thing on you - it's okay to say "thanks but no thanks" to this sort of "well meaning" advice
4. If I am reading you correctly your friends were calling your (former) asshole boyfriend an asshole? It's still not great but it's different from just deciding out of the blue that someone you are deeply into has negative qualities that are not ones that you yourself see or care about
Without digging too deep, I remember past questions where you were, for a long time, in a deeply unhealthy (by your own admission) relationship. So there may be some levels to this that make this complicated. However to make it simple my feeling is: if people are giving you unwanted advice about your partners it is okay to tell them to not do that and if they continue doing that, they are not being friendly.
I've had friends in the past who have used me as a sounding board for their terrible relationships but when I'd say "Gee this guy you are dating sounds like an asshole" they'd turn around and act like I was somehow talking out of turn. I think I'd also be a little circumspect about telling your SO about every weird/nasty thing people say about him. It's usually not super helpful and just can prolong drama and enmesh more people in it.
In short: it's okay for you to say "I don't want to hear that" or "I don't want you to talk about my partner that way" and have that be a boundary that you set. I don't trash other people's SOs at all, though I would talk to them if I felt there was a particularly concerning incident ("Hey your guy just yelled at the mailman, is everything okay?") or if I felt they were in danger. Otherwise it's respectful of people to respect their choices. You don't have to love everyone's SO (and I am one of those "not every couple has to be a package deal" people) but people should respect other people's choices about their intimate partnerships.
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 AM on January 19, 2014 [10 favorites]
This was my takeaway also. There are a few things that I think you need to consider individually and then consider how they may affect each other.
1. It's not okay for people to be trashing your partners - it's fine to tell them to stop
2. People who want to date you might do that out of some competitive interest - it's probably wise to be more mindful of this, people who may be into you may make bad confidantes for this reason
3. People who care about you might do that because of bad choices you've made in the past and they are concerned or are trying some sort of tough love thing on you - it's okay to say "thanks but no thanks" to this sort of "well meaning" advice
4. If I am reading you correctly your friends were calling your (former) asshole boyfriend an asshole? It's still not great but it's different from just deciding out of the blue that someone you are deeply into has negative qualities that are not ones that you yourself see or care about
Without digging too deep, I remember past questions where you were, for a long time, in a deeply unhealthy (by your own admission) relationship. So there may be some levels to this that make this complicated. However to make it simple my feeling is: if people are giving you unwanted advice about your partners it is okay to tell them to not do that and if they continue doing that, they are not being friendly.
I've had friends in the past who have used me as a sounding board for their terrible relationships but when I'd say "Gee this guy you are dating sounds like an asshole" they'd turn around and act like I was somehow talking out of turn. I think I'd also be a little circumspect about telling your SO about every weird/nasty thing people say about him. It's usually not super helpful and just can prolong drama and enmesh more people in it.
In short: it's okay for you to say "I don't want to hear that" or "I don't want you to talk about my partner that way" and have that be a boundary that you set. I don't trash other people's SOs at all, though I would talk to them if I felt there was a particularly concerning incident ("Hey your guy just yelled at the mailman, is everything okay?") or if I felt they were in danger. Otherwise it's respectful of people to respect their choices. You don't have to love everyone's SO (and I am one of those "not every couple has to be a package deal" people) but people should respect other people's choices about their intimate partnerships.
posted by jessamyn at 8:31 AM on January 19, 2014 [10 favorites]
In the conrext of sharing stories about SO that follow the I did X. He did Y. We fought. Can you believe it ?! Some people may empathize by calling your SO names as a way to relate and validate feelings. However it generally should be in that context only and not be brought up again.
If something like that happens and it is brought up again a softer way to approach it is to say something like he made up and apologized. He hasn't been acting like that.
Of course if name calling continues bringing it up that you don't like it is appropriate. It sounds like these people didn't respect you.
Generally social protocol is for a friend to hold their tongue and/or be very tactful in their concerns until break-up if that happens.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:32 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
If something like that happens and it is brought up again a softer way to approach it is to say something like he made up and apologized. He hasn't been acting like that.
Of course if name calling continues bringing it up that you don't like it is appropriate. It sounds like these people didn't respect you.
Generally social protocol is for a friend to hold their tongue and/or be very tactful in their concerns until break-up if that happens.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:32 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
If a person doesn't respect your partner, then they don't respect you.
Seconding wholehearted disagreement with this blanket statement. Sometimes it is true; sometimes it is the opposite of true: I have a dear friend stuck in a miserable marriage that we're all trying very carefully to help her find the courage to find her way out of. If her friends didn't respect her, we wouldn't be so concerned about how he treats her and would just keep our mouths shut.
Maybe that is what is going on for you, here, Autumn, maybe it isn't; certainly your friends have not shown a great deal of tact in how they're expressing their opinions about your SO(s) -- but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their opinions about you (except possible about your taste in dating partners.)
posted by ook at 8:35 AM on January 19, 2014
Seconding wholehearted disagreement with this blanket statement. Sometimes it is true; sometimes it is the opposite of true: I have a dear friend stuck in a miserable marriage that we're all trying very carefully to help her find the courage to find her way out of. If her friends didn't respect her, we wouldn't be so concerned about how he treats her and would just keep our mouths shut.
Maybe that is what is going on for you, here, Autumn, maybe it isn't; certainly your friends have not shown a great deal of tact in how they're expressing their opinions about your SO(s) -- but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their opinions about you (except possible about your taste in dating partners.)
posted by ook at 8:35 AM on January 19, 2014
Response by poster: Final Update:
I think the solution here is to stop allowing my relationships to be a normal part of the conversation. Those who picked up on that were right; with every friend I mentioned above relationships are 99% of what we talk about. (I even have 2 friends where that's all they'll talk to me about because they don't like people knowing anything about themselves.)
By that I mean a mutual detail-sharing thing not a one-sided thing. I thought about it after reading some of the responses and the friends I *haven't* had this problem with are friends I just don't talk about my relationships with for whatever reason. The most I've heard from them after meeting him is, "He seems pretty chill."
Even with Almost New Friend, we'd never talked about relationships until he asked me why I was single. He'd met Current SO once before then but we weren't "official" then. When I told him we were together he says, "I'm surprised you're with that guy... but you don't want to open that can of worms," and I inquired further until he spilled what he was thinking. I probably did give the impression further commentary was OK by doing that.
All but 1 of the people that make snide remarks are also my exes, so I guess there could be something going on there but I never got the impression they wanted to re-date me.
I'll admit there are validity in the statements. Ex-SO was a stupid decision and maybe they were frustrated by that. Current-SO isn't really the "alpha male" type and the 2 people that expressed concerns pretty much said the same thing - they think I'm better suited for a more Type-A Go-getter. But I connect with him in ways that are different and (imo) deeper than that, so it doesn't bother me.
posted by Autumn at 8:54 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think the solution here is to stop allowing my relationships to be a normal part of the conversation. Those who picked up on that were right; with every friend I mentioned above relationships are 99% of what we talk about. (I even have 2 friends where that's all they'll talk to me about because they don't like people knowing anything about themselves.)
By that I mean a mutual detail-sharing thing not a one-sided thing. I thought about it after reading some of the responses and the friends I *haven't* had this problem with are friends I just don't talk about my relationships with for whatever reason. The most I've heard from them after meeting him is, "He seems pretty chill."
Even with Almost New Friend, we'd never talked about relationships until he asked me why I was single. He'd met Current SO once before then but we weren't "official" then. When I told him we were together he says, "I'm surprised you're with that guy... but you don't want to open that can of worms," and I inquired further until he spilled what he was thinking. I probably did give the impression further commentary was OK by doing that.
All but 1 of the people that make snide remarks are also my exes, so I guess there could be something going on there but I never got the impression they wanted to re-date me.
I'll admit there are validity in the statements. Ex-SO was a stupid decision and maybe they were frustrated by that. Current-SO isn't really the "alpha male" type and the 2 people that expressed concerns pretty much said the same thing - they think I'm better suited for a more Type-A Go-getter. But I connect with him in ways that are different and (imo) deeper than that, so it doesn't bother me.
posted by Autumn at 8:54 AM on January 19, 2014 [1 favorite]
All but 1 of the people that make snide remarks are also my exes, so I guess there could be something going on there but I never got the impression they wanted to re-date me.
That's pretty relevant information. In the future, I recommend that you don't talk to your exes about current SOs. It's too fraught with potential for digging up old relationship hurts/resentments/insecurities. No good can come of it.
posted by amro at 9:10 AM on January 19, 2014 [29 favorites]
That's pretty relevant information. In the future, I recommend that you don't talk to your exes about current SOs. It's too fraught with potential for digging up old relationship hurts/resentments/insecurities. No good can come of it.
posted by amro at 9:10 AM on January 19, 2014 [29 favorites]
All but 1 of the people that make snide remarks are also my exes
Huh. If you had included that bit of information in the original post you would have gotten very different responses.
Don't share details about your current relationships with your exes, at least until the ex relationship is so very far in the past that you are both absolutely certain there is no lingering feelings there, romantic or otherwise, on either side. Then maybe wait another year or two just to be safe.
At best, they're the people least qualified to give you objective advice. At worst, you're potentially toying with your exes' feelings by doing this, which even if completely unintentional on your part (as is clearly the case here) is still kind of not a nice thing to do at all.
I inquired further until he spilled what he was thinking. I probably did give the impression further commentary was OK by doing that.
In that you explicitly, directly asked for it, yes, you did give that impression.
posted by ook at 10:05 AM on January 19, 2014 [10 favorites]
Huh. If you had included that bit of information in the original post you would have gotten very different responses.
Don't share details about your current relationships with your exes, at least until the ex relationship is so very far in the past that you are both absolutely certain there is no lingering feelings there, romantic or otherwise, on either side. Then maybe wait another year or two just to be safe.
At best, they're the people least qualified to give you objective advice. At worst, you're potentially toying with your exes' feelings by doing this, which even if completely unintentional on your part (as is clearly the case here) is still kind of not a nice thing to do at all.
I inquired further until he spilled what he was thinking. I probably did give the impression further commentary was OK by doing that.
In that you explicitly, directly asked for it, yes, you did give that impression.
posted by ook at 10:05 AM on January 19, 2014 [10 favorites]
Hrm.
With the new knowledge that these friends are exes... I'd say that it's possible that you may have a habit of dating people who are a bit douchey. That whole "beta male" comment is just such the PUA dudebro kind of thing to say.
So maybe it's both. Maybe your male friends (exes) aren't great, and maybe you're current boyfriend isn't great either, if he fits the pattern.
But I don't know you, and maybe it's just a bit of a string of bad luck.
posted by gaspode at 10:53 AM on January 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
With the new knowledge that these friends are exes... I'd say that it's possible that you may have a habit of dating people who are a bit douchey. That whole "beta male" comment is just such the PUA dudebro kind of thing to say.
So maybe it's both. Maybe your male friends (exes) aren't great, and maybe you're current boyfriend isn't great either, if he fits the pattern.
But I don't know you, and maybe it's just a bit of a string of bad luck.
posted by gaspode at 10:53 AM on January 19, 2014 [7 favorites]
I think your friends are looking out for you. They wouldn't call him an asshole unless they thought he was treating you badly. You even admitted the one they called an asshole was, in fact, an asshole -- and yet you are bothered by their comments? Um, what? Are you even taking the time to consider that maybe your friends are right or have genuine concerns they'd like to express, instead of immediately getting defensive? Maybe next time you should say, "Hey, what do you mean by that? Why do you think that?" and really listen to what they are trying to tell you. If these friends are otherwise supportive and good friends, then I would think about what they are saying.
But all of that is assuming you have known these friends for a long time in real life. Honestly, these "friends" sound like online acquaintances to me. Do you even know these people in real life? If you are chatting with strange men on the internet, I would ask why you're surprised about any of what is happening.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:23 AM on January 19, 2014
But all of that is assuming you have known these friends for a long time in real life. Honestly, these "friends" sound like online acquaintances to me. Do you even know these people in real life? If you are chatting with strange men on the internet, I would ask why you're surprised about any of what is happening.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:23 AM on January 19, 2014
It's not okay, but this is something you can control. Stop inviting commentary on your romantic relationships from your friends/exes.
Note that I'm not saying that they are wrong, either. Yes, the audience is... shall we say, flawed? problematic? But truly consider whether you have a habit of dating men who fit a pattern and whether this guy fits in the pattern or not. It sounds to me like at least some of these conversations start with a relationship complaint. Is it valid?
posted by sm1tten at 11:29 AM on January 19, 2014
Note that I'm not saying that they are wrong, either. Yes, the audience is... shall we say, flawed? problematic? But truly consider whether you have a habit of dating men who fit a pattern and whether this guy fits in the pattern or not. It sounds to me like at least some of these conversations start with a relationship complaint. Is it valid?
posted by sm1tten at 11:29 AM on January 19, 2014
Late last year someone I'd known stopped talking to me completely because I said something about being worried my partner at the time was bored with me and he said, "Guess you go for immature jerks," which was just one of many comments he'd made about the person I was seeing at the time. To which I responded, "Um. Wow. Not cool." He blocked me on everything after that and I never heard of him again.
Was this one of your exes? If so, he's right, you go (or went, I hope) for immature jerks.
posted by Dolley at 12:43 PM on January 19, 2014
Was this one of your exes? If so, he's right, you go (or went, I hope) for immature jerks.
posted by Dolley at 12:43 PM on January 19, 2014
Even if your friends have reason to believe that your SO is not so great for you, calling him names and being condescending towards you (like the "date real men" comment" is not okay. And a real friend would not have stopped talking to you just because you told them that.
I think if you have to censor yourself in front of someone, they're not your friend. I talk about my boyfriend with my friends all the time, and they talk about their SOs. (Of course, no sharing of intimate details.) I have voiced concern over someone my friend dated before, and I have also once witnessed a friend chiding another friend for cheating, and we're all still friends.
I agree with others here that say these guys are not your friends, they're trying to get into your panties and are acting pretty obviously and rather rudely.
posted by LoonyLovegood at 1:11 PM on January 19, 2014
I think if you have to censor yourself in front of someone, they're not your friend. I talk about my boyfriend with my friends all the time, and they talk about their SOs. (Of course, no sharing of intimate details.) I have voiced concern over someone my friend dated before, and I have also once witnessed a friend chiding another friend for cheating, and we're all still friends.
I agree with others here that say these guys are not your friends, they're trying to get into your panties and are acting pretty obviously and rather rudely.
posted by LoonyLovegood at 1:11 PM on January 19, 2014
It's only "normal" in that it's typical behavior for men who aren't really your friends and just spending time with you in the hopes of eventually getting to fuck you.
You should end those friendships (or at least downgrade them to friendly acquaintances you only ever see at group outings) and instead invest your time in forming and nuturing friendships with people who don't want to fuck you.
Since it sounds like you have pretty poor judgment when it comes to figuring out that someone wants to fuck you, you should probably restrict your new friendships to gender and orientation combos that are inherently uninterested in fucking you (i.e., hetero women and gay men) for a few years until you have enough experience with friendships without an underlying sexual agenda to know what that looks and feels like. Then you can use that as a basis of comparison to see if hetero men are acting like true friends or are just trying to get into your pants.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:12 PM on January 19, 2014
You should end those friendships (or at least downgrade them to friendly acquaintances you only ever see at group outings) and instead invest your time in forming and nuturing friendships with people who don't want to fuck you.
Since it sounds like you have pretty poor judgment when it comes to figuring out that someone wants to fuck you, you should probably restrict your new friendships to gender and orientation combos that are inherently uninterested in fucking you (i.e., hetero women and gay men) for a few years until you have enough experience with friendships without an underlying sexual agenda to know what that looks and feels like. Then you can use that as a basis of comparison to see if hetero men are acting like true friends or are just trying to get into your pants.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:12 PM on January 19, 2014
All but 1 of the people that make snide remarks are also my exes, so I guess there could be something going on there but I never got the impression they wanted to re-date me.
I would say this is probably a big part of it. I would avoid discussing your relationships with your exes. Even though I have no interest in dating an ex, I really don't want to hear them complain about their current relationship.
It sounds like your two friends who made these snide comments aren't talking to you anymore, so it doesn't sound like they want to continue being your friend. And frankly, as you said, if 99% of what you talk to about with these friends is relationship talk, what is your friendship really based on?
posted by inertia at 3:19 PM on January 19, 2014
I would say this is probably a big part of it. I would avoid discussing your relationships with your exes. Even though I have no interest in dating an ex, I really don't want to hear them complain about their current relationship.
It sounds like your two friends who made these snide comments aren't talking to you anymore, so it doesn't sound like they want to continue being your friend. And frankly, as you said, if 99% of what you talk to about with these friends is relationship talk, what is your friendship really based on?
posted by inertia at 3:19 PM on January 19, 2014
Best answer: Notice how J. wilson told you bluntly and in no uncertain terms that these guys are not your friends?
J. wilson is demonstrating concern and showing how you express these concerns when you have someone' best interests at heart. He did not engage in any namecalling. He succinctly stated why he thinks these guys are not really your friends. Also, he did so in response to your asking for advice.
If I were so concerned for a friend's well-being that I needed to give them unsolicited advice, I would do it the way J. Wilson did it, not by calling your SO an "asshole" or a "beta male". [1] Nameçalling is extremely rude and it also isn't very informative.
Having said that, I recommend that you follow through on your decision to be very selective about who you discuss relationships with. These guys were either being way too familiar because of their history with you, or they were trying to get with you, or one or more of the above plus, being exes, they were frustrated about having this kind of relationship with you where they talk about your relationships but aren't ever going to be in one themselves.
I recommend two books "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behaviour" and "Verbal Abuse" by Patricia Evans. Keep reading them until you learn the scripts and the lessons sink in. This will clear up a lot of your confusion about the signs of respect and contempt.
[1] Except I've probably done this more than once on the green... So... I'd better correct this fault in myself.
posted by tel3path at 2:26 PM on January 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
J. wilson is demonstrating concern and showing how you express these concerns when you have someone' best interests at heart. He did not engage in any namecalling. He succinctly stated why he thinks these guys are not really your friends. Also, he did so in response to your asking for advice.
If I were so concerned for a friend's well-being that I needed to give them unsolicited advice, I would do it the way J. Wilson did it, not by calling your SO an "asshole" or a "beta male". [1] Nameçalling is extremely rude and it also isn't very informative.
Having said that, I recommend that you follow through on your decision to be very selective about who you discuss relationships with. These guys were either being way too familiar because of their history with you, or they were trying to get with you, or one or more of the above plus, being exes, they were frustrated about having this kind of relationship with you where they talk about your relationships but aren't ever going to be in one themselves.
I recommend two books "Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behaviour" and "Verbal Abuse" by Patricia Evans. Keep reading them until you learn the scripts and the lessons sink in. This will clear up a lot of your confusion about the signs of respect and contempt.
[1] Except I've probably done this more than once on the green... So... I'd better correct this fault in myself.
posted by tel3path at 2:26 PM on January 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
But given the difficulty I have making friends, if this is just OK and I should just suck it up, I can and will do so to preserve future friendships.
You are more likely to make new friends who don't act like this if you get rid of friends who are jerks.
Two reasons: New people meeting you might not want to hang out around jerks unless they are jerks as well, and people who aren't jerks are more likely to have nicer friends that you might end up meeting and making friends with yourself.
Getting friends gets easier over time, although everyone has their ups and downs in that department. It won't always be as difficult as it is now.
Being discerning about who you want to be around and share more of yourself with is a good skill to learn/improve.
posted by yohko at 8:52 PM on January 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
You are more likely to make new friends who don't act like this if you get rid of friends who are jerks.
Two reasons: New people meeting you might not want to hang out around jerks unless they are jerks as well, and people who aren't jerks are more likely to have nicer friends that you might end up meeting and making friends with yourself.
Getting friends gets easier over time, although everyone has their ups and downs in that department. It won't always be as difficult as it is now.
Being discerning about who you want to be around and share more of yourself with is a good skill to learn/improve.
posted by yohko at 8:52 PM on January 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'll just reinforce the ideas above that if you talk about your relationship with someone else, then please be sure you're giving a balanced view. I have a friend who only told me about the bad things in her relationship, and I got an incredibly skewed impression of the guy she was dating for a very long time. She's been with him for over a decade, and they eventually got married, and it's taken me a long time to correct my initial impressions of him.
posted by telophase at 3:01 PM on January 22, 2014
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posted by discopolo at 7:23 AM on January 19, 2014 [3 favorites]