are cyclists a menace to society?
October 11, 2005 11:24 PM Subscribe
Are commuter cyclists really the regular victims of extreme road rage, inspired merely by their presence? Why?
In this thread, several people claim to have been the innocent victims of car driver rage simply for the fact that they have the gall to ride a bicycle on public roads. Is this a common experience, in US or other cities? What could possibly be motivating these people (the aggro drivers)? I'm a daily commuter and I've come across inconsiderate or just plain bad drivers many a time, but not openly, pointlessless hostile ones. Occasionally, someone will beep me for absolutely no reason, and I wave and smile. But why would someone try to threaten a person just for riding a bike? I'm genuinely curious, this isn't a secret cyclists are betta! thread, pop psychologists and amateur anthropologists please go right ahead (just don't mention virility.
In this thread, several people claim to have been the innocent victims of car driver rage simply for the fact that they have the gall to ride a bicycle on public roads. Is this a common experience, in US or other cities? What could possibly be motivating these people (the aggro drivers)? I'm a daily commuter and I've come across inconsiderate or just plain bad drivers many a time, but not openly, pointlessless hostile ones. Occasionally, someone will beep me for absolutely no reason, and I wave and smile. But why would someone try to threaten a person just for riding a bike? I'm genuinely curious, this isn't a secret cyclists are betta! thread, pop psychologists and amateur anthropologists please go right ahead (just don't mention virility.
in jersey city nj, more than once on near-empty roads have I seen people change over 2 or 3 lanes merely to try to force me off the road (onto the sidewalk "where I belong"?)
in hoboken nj on one-way one-lane residential streets, people behind me would get utterly pissed off because I insisted on riding in the middle of the lane (streets are fairly narrow, often double parking gah, no way am I going to get doored thankyouverymuch; speed limit is 25mph, I am more than capable of sustaining 25+ mph) -- if it was some slow driver in a car in front of them they might tailgate a little. but put a bike there instead, and it's all horn and not-quite-running-you-over.
I think the rage comes down to ignorance and not wanting to share what's "theirs".
however, in boston and manhattan I have not had anywhere nead as bad experiences, in fact people were fairly decent.
posted by dorian at 11:38 PM on October 11, 2005
in hoboken nj on one-way one-lane residential streets, people behind me would get utterly pissed off because I insisted on riding in the middle of the lane (streets are fairly narrow, often double parking gah, no way am I going to get doored thankyouverymuch; speed limit is 25mph, I am more than capable of sustaining 25+ mph) -- if it was some slow driver in a car in front of them they might tailgate a little. but put a bike there instead, and it's all horn and not-quite-running-you-over.
I think the rage comes down to ignorance and not wanting to share what's "theirs".
however, in boston and manhattan I have not had anywhere nead as bad experiences, in fact people were fairly decent.
posted by dorian at 11:38 PM on October 11, 2005
I've never been in a serious road rage incident (honked at numerous times, one guy pulled over when I flipped him off after he nearly hit me when he passed, we had a semi-heated discussion, but left both a bit wiser).
In my experience, the rage some motorists feel towards cyclists is a result of most Americans thinking of bicycles as toys. As such, they don't belong on the street. Many people seem to actually think it is illegal to ride on the street. I've had more than one person tell me they hate cyclists who don't ride on the sidewalk. They were surprised to learn that in the urban center of many cities, that is actually the crime.
[Aside: One coworker of mine saw me getting off my bike outside work one day. He later told me, quite gleefully, that he went out of his way to try and hit cyclists with his mirror when he passed one on the road. Fucking prick. He seemed to like me, and it did not occur to him that there might be a problem telling his friend that he would try to injure him if they happened across each other on the way home.]
But that gets at most of what it is. People are tense in their cars already, generally. Add to that the fact that many folks believe a cyclists is committing a grave offense by riding a bike on the city street, and there are bound to be enough folks incensed by it to do something stupid.
Folks also generally feel an elevated level of anger when they see a bike break the rules (particlualry if it's getting the bike adead). Thus there can be a feeling of outrage that the bike is there at all, coupled with a feeling of jealousy that cyclists can get away with flaunting traffic laws.
And then add to that the fact that there are genuine asshole cyclists out there that go out of their way to piss auto drivers off, and anyone that is feeling ill disposed towards bikes already is going to remember an encounter with such a person above all else.
It all ads up to make a certain segment of the population ready to enforce what they see as vigilante justice, in the form of intimidation and road rage and the like.
posted by teece at 11:55 PM on October 11, 2005
In my experience, the rage some motorists feel towards cyclists is a result of most Americans thinking of bicycles as toys. As such, they don't belong on the street. Many people seem to actually think it is illegal to ride on the street. I've had more than one person tell me they hate cyclists who don't ride on the sidewalk. They were surprised to learn that in the urban center of many cities, that is actually the crime.
[Aside: One coworker of mine saw me getting off my bike outside work one day. He later told me, quite gleefully, that he went out of his way to try and hit cyclists with his mirror when he passed one on the road. Fucking prick. He seemed to like me, and it did not occur to him that there might be a problem telling his friend that he would try to injure him if they happened across each other on the way home.]
But that gets at most of what it is. People are tense in their cars already, generally. Add to that the fact that many folks believe a cyclists is committing a grave offense by riding a bike on the city street, and there are bound to be enough folks incensed by it to do something stupid.
Folks also generally feel an elevated level of anger when they see a bike break the rules (particlualry if it's getting the bike adead). Thus there can be a feeling of outrage that the bike is there at all, coupled with a feeling of jealousy that cyclists can get away with flaunting traffic laws.
And then add to that the fact that there are genuine asshole cyclists out there that go out of their way to piss auto drivers off, and anyone that is feeling ill disposed towards bikes already is going to remember an encounter with such a person above all else.
It all ads up to make a certain segment of the population ready to enforce what they see as vigilante justice, in the form of intimidation and road rage and the like.
posted by teece at 11:55 PM on October 11, 2005
using enough of the lane to make it dangerous to pass themtravel safely
posted by dorian at 12:07 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by dorian at 12:07 AM on October 12, 2005
on preview: no-one said cyclists are better. what has been said is that many drivers are ignorant that they are compelled to share the road with cyclists, and are ignorant that for cyclists to be safe may cause inconvenience to drivers. which leads to the rage (of which, when I was 5-10 years younger than now, I was totally capable)
//
also, I think there's an ever-encroaching sense of self-entitlement (mostly in areas where the police, for whatever reason, refuse to enforce basic traffic safetly laws) -- in the two above-mentioned cities in jersey, drivers don't even consider stopping at the actual stop-line but cruise partway out into intersections before stopping, regardless of pedestrians (and often oncoming traffic). similarly vs. yielding to pedestrians while turning. and it only gets worse every year because the cops don't bother to enforce any of that. hell, in hoboken, the police will not tow cars parked in the ~1-car-length non-parking areas right at an intersection (where largish suvs like to park, blocking the view of both drivers and pedestrians. often blocking the handicapped sidewalk ramps as well) unless you call and make their asses do their job. which I don't get, 'cos it (a) increases safety, which is why we have these laws in the first place and (2) is quite a lot of revenue for the city until ppl start actually obeying the laws.
whereas in nyc the police will smack you the fsck down for pulling that crap. and people behave accordingly, i.e. it's a hell of a lot safer.
posted by dorian at 12:23 AM on October 12, 2005
//
also, I think there's an ever-encroaching sense of self-entitlement (mostly in areas where the police, for whatever reason, refuse to enforce basic traffic safetly laws) -- in the two above-mentioned cities in jersey, drivers don't even consider stopping at the actual stop-line but cruise partway out into intersections before stopping, regardless of pedestrians (and often oncoming traffic). similarly vs. yielding to pedestrians while turning. and it only gets worse every year because the cops don't bother to enforce any of that. hell, in hoboken, the police will not tow cars parked in the ~1-car-length non-parking areas right at an intersection (where largish suvs like to park, blocking the view of both drivers and pedestrians. often blocking the handicapped sidewalk ramps as well) unless you call and make their asses do their job. which I don't get, 'cos it (a) increases safety, which is why we have these laws in the first place and (2) is quite a lot of revenue for the city until ppl start actually obeying the laws.
whereas in nyc the police will smack you the fsck down for pulling that crap. and people behave accordingly, i.e. it's a hell of a lot safer.
posted by dorian at 12:23 AM on October 12, 2005
I have never been the victim of driver rage in Auckland, New Zealand, but I have had several near misses that one could swear were deliberate. Always it's turned out to be that some motorists simply do not perceive bicycles. They don't expect them to be there and they are not alert for anything smaller than another car.
If I respond angrily, which it's hard not to do when some clueless wanker nearly wipes me out, then they in turn might respond in an enraged manner. But that's not road rage to start with; that's just how it turns out after I've expressed my feelings towards them.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:11 AM on October 12, 2005
If I respond angrily, which it's hard not to do when some clueless wanker nearly wipes me out, then they in turn might respond in an enraged manner. But that's not road rage to start with; that's just how it turns out after I've expressed my feelings towards them.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:11 AM on October 12, 2005
I've never been the victim of extreme road rage, but I did sense an increased level of resentment from drivers right after gas prices around here hit the $3 mark a couple months ago. I more than a few green-eyed looks while stopped at lights.
I have nothing to really substantiate this other than my own observations, but I think that I may actually have it easier as a female cyclist commuter. Now, I personally don't mind at all seeing some guy's cute spandex-clad rear, but there's plenty of people here in America's heartland that don't feel the same way. I know my SO has dealt with a lot more road harassment than I ever have.
posted by dicaxpuella at 1:47 AM on October 12, 2005
I have nothing to really substantiate this other than my own observations, but I think that I may actually have it easier as a female cyclist commuter. Now, I personally don't mind at all seeing some guy's cute spandex-clad rear, but there's plenty of people here in America's heartland that don't feel the same way. I know my SO has dealt with a lot more road harassment than I ever have.
posted by dicaxpuella at 1:47 AM on October 12, 2005
In Oxford (UK) the problem exists but isn't too bad - perhaps in this country cyclists are more commonly encountered, are expected and treated well. However, it is exacerbated by a sizeable proportion of the many cyclists here being absolute idiots on the road, jumping red lights, using no lights when it's dark and generally bimbling along oblivious to the traffic around them.
posted by edd at 2:19 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by edd at 2:19 AM on October 12, 2005
I wonder if some of it stems from drivers sometimes being pedestrians? When I'm on foot I despise cyclists who shoot over pedestrian crossings when the lights are red; use the pavements (and often blow a whistle when right behind you to get you to "move over"); go the wrong way up one way streets, then blow aforementioned whistle when you step out to cross without having looked the wrong way (yeah, yeah - Viz. I know...); etc. In short, cyclists treat pedestrians like they feel car drivers treat them and while I try not to carry my pedestrian (pun intended) resentments through to when I'm behind the wheel of a car, the self-same "cycle nazis" (at least in London, where I used to drive daily) can do similar things to you when you're driving. At that point you've moved from being the weaker party to the stronger party and sometimes it's hard to keep your temper...
posted by benzo8 at 3:04 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by benzo8 at 3:04 AM on October 12, 2005
In all my years of biking in a major metropolitan city in the midwest, I have never been threatened. I get the impression that is an east coast phenemenon? It would make sense as most drivers in that area are too high strung as it is. I typically stay as far to the right as possible even within a foot of parked cars. Of course I am not stupid, a quick glance will tell me if there is a driver behind the wheel waiting to open their door. If there as a question about what is ahead then I am much more cautious and become ready to brake. I don't get hung up about bitching out someone opening a car door. The responsibility for avoiding that is as much the cyclist's responsibility as the car driver's. Many of the people who bitch the loudest about car doors think they are Jesus on a bike and can do no wrong.
Being on a bike means being constantly aware of every hazard in front, the sides and behind you. If you can't see the little clues like that then maybe you shouldn't be driving on the road? I always obey red lights and stop signs and know where all hazards are at all times. Because of this attitude I have only had one accident where there was a fine layer of sand on the curve of a bike path. I never had one traffic accident although there were many, many potential accidents.
Nowadays there are so many special lanes and pathways for bikes that there seems to be less need to challenge cars for the need to be on the road at all. The saying, "Share the road with bikes" goes both ways. You must always share the road with cars and never act like it is your sole right to be there. It never makes sense to me to risk your life over right or wrong.
posted by JJ86 at 3:10 AM on October 12, 2005
Being on a bike means being constantly aware of every hazard in front, the sides and behind you. If you can't see the little clues like that then maybe you shouldn't be driving on the road? I always obey red lights and stop signs and know where all hazards are at all times. Because of this attitude I have only had one accident where there was a fine layer of sand on the curve of a bike path. I never had one traffic accident although there were many, many potential accidents.
Nowadays there are so many special lanes and pathways for bikes that there seems to be less need to challenge cars for the need to be on the road at all. The saying, "Share the road with bikes" goes both ways. You must always share the road with cars and never act like it is your sole right to be there. It never makes sense to me to risk your life over right or wrong.
posted by JJ86 at 3:10 AM on October 12, 2005
Back when I lived in Chicago years ago I commuted on bike every day to work. I never had anyone try to hit me, but I did have at least one person scream at me for no good reason. This was in the city. The one time I decided to ride my bike out to the near suburbs to visit a friend the situation was quite a bit different. I just followed one of the main roads out of the city until I hit strip mall land. There I noticed that people, more than angry, were jeering. As if they thought that I was too poor to own a car or something (and therefore, in their world view, worthy of scorn). I had several carloads of obnoxious suburban kids insult me in a "ha ha look at the poor bike rider" kind of way. It was weird. Then again, in a world few people walk and fewer use their bikes to get around, I guess they just thought I was a freak.
posted by sic at 3:10 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by sic at 3:10 AM on October 12, 2005
there are a couple of reasons for this: (I hate byciclists in the road, but have never endangered any. that's... insane.)
1. Regardless of the law, it seems to most drivers (because they're not byciclists) that a bike SHOULD be perfectly capable of driving on the sidwalk. It seems silly to most drivers that a bike should share the road with faster cars rather than pedestrians share he sidewalk with faster bikes. I've had the logic explained to me, but on the road I don't care. which brings me to my other point:
2. Driving is stress. It's not stressFUL, it's just stress. You are trapped in several tons of death machine that's supposed t get you to work faster, except EVERYTHING YOU ENCOUNTER ALONG THE WAY seems engineered to prevent you from doing just that. Asshole drivers, trucks, buses, traffic lights, speed bumps, cops, construction, bridges, tunnels, engine failure pedestrians bicyclists... it all has a reason and is justifiable if not downright necessary, but it all makes the entire concept of commuting seem assinine and backward. Add to that the stress of being late for work, etc... Then you're behind some guy in spandex with a water bottle going 15 miles an hour for 15 miles?!
none of this excuses it, but it's why.
posted by shmegegge at 3:11 AM on October 12, 2005
1. Regardless of the law, it seems to most drivers (because they're not byciclists) that a bike SHOULD be perfectly capable of driving on the sidwalk. It seems silly to most drivers that a bike should share the road with faster cars rather than pedestrians share he sidewalk with faster bikes. I've had the logic explained to me, but on the road I don't care. which brings me to my other point:
2. Driving is stress. It's not stressFUL, it's just stress. You are trapped in several tons of death machine that's supposed t get you to work faster, except EVERYTHING YOU ENCOUNTER ALONG THE WAY seems engineered to prevent you from doing just that. Asshole drivers, trucks, buses, traffic lights, speed bumps, cops, construction, bridges, tunnels, engine failure pedestrians bicyclists... it all has a reason and is justifiable if not downright necessary, but it all makes the entire concept of commuting seem assinine and backward. Add to that the stress of being late for work, etc... Then you're behind some guy in spandex with a water bottle going 15 miles an hour for 15 miles?!
none of this excuses it, but it's why.
posted by shmegegge at 3:11 AM on October 12, 2005
In Oxford (UK) the problem exists but isn't too bad - perhaps in this country cyclists are more commonly encountered, are expected and treated well. However, it is exacerbated by a sizeable proportion of the many cyclists here being absolute idiots on the road, jumping red lights, using no lights when it's dark and generally bimbling along oblivious to the traffic around them
I'm a cyclist, a pedestrian and a non-driver and I spent a couple of days in Oxford recently. Two near hits in two days by bikes, one on the pavement, one cutting across traffic against a red light to cycle the wrong way up a street with no regard for the people crossing legally in that road. If I hadn't been aware enough he would have gone straight into me, lucky considering he was coming from a direction nothing should have been coming from. Cyclists like that are in need of an accident.
posted by biffa at 3:25 AM on October 12, 2005
I'm a cyclist, a pedestrian and a non-driver and I spent a couple of days in Oxford recently. Two near hits in two days by bikes, one on the pavement, one cutting across traffic against a red light to cycle the wrong way up a street with no regard for the people crossing legally in that road. If I hadn't been aware enough he would have gone straight into me, lucky considering he was coming from a direction nothing should have been coming from. Cyclists like that are in need of an accident.
posted by biffa at 3:25 AM on October 12, 2005
Then again, in a world few people walk and fewer use their bikes to get around, I guess they just thought I was a freak.
posted by sic at 3:10 AM PST on October 12 [!]
Maybe there's a classist aspect to this. In the US, if you're not in a car but you're on the road, you really are a freak — maybe even considered trash — and deserve to be treated by asshole drivers accordingly (in their warped minds).
posted by Rothko at 3:44 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by sic at 3:10 AM PST on October 12 [!]
Maybe there's a classist aspect to this. In the US, if you're not in a car but you're on the road, you really are a freak — maybe even considered trash — and deserve to be treated by asshole drivers accordingly (in their warped minds).
posted by Rothko at 3:44 AM on October 12, 2005
Oxford is very much an exception (well, Cambridge is similar) in that there are vast numbers of cyclists, and cars are very restricted in the city centre. Lots of these cyclists are clueless and/or behave badly, but they are unlikely to encounter road rage just because the car traffic is pretty encumbered anyway.
posted by altolinguistic at 3:46 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by altolinguistic at 3:46 AM on October 12, 2005
benzo8 brings up a good point.
In New York at least, bikers are at least as aggressive and nasty to pedestrians as drivers are to bikers.
I've had two incidents where bikers have cursed at me and threatened physical violence because I (once nicely, once not so nicely) pointed out that they zoomed past a red light and almost hit me, my dog, or someone else. I live in Washington Heights near the GWB and on week-ends crossing the street is like trying to score a touchdown on a football field.
So it is tempting not to get back at them when behind the wheel.
posted by xetere at 3:48 AM on October 12, 2005
In New York at least, bikers are at least as aggressive and nasty to pedestrians as drivers are to bikers.
I've had two incidents where bikers have cursed at me and threatened physical violence because I (once nicely, once not so nicely) pointed out that they zoomed past a red light and almost hit me, my dog, or someone else. I live in Washington Heights near the GWB and on week-ends crossing the street is like trying to score a touchdown on a football field.
So it is tempting not to get back at them when behind the wheel.
posted by xetere at 3:48 AM on October 12, 2005
I see the driving/stress equation a little differently. I think for most people, the default state is that driving is a mindless activity, and anything causing it to be a mindful one leads to resentment.
posted by kimota at 3:58 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by kimota at 3:58 AM on October 12, 2005
Disclaimer: I don't bike much, but I have avid cyclists in my family (one of whom was almost run off the road in the manner you describe). I've never tried to kill a cyclist with my car, and I could never see myself getting that angry at anyone else. I understand that cyclists have a right to the road, and I'm happy to give them their space even if I'm temporarily slowed down.
That said, to echo what was said above, it does really annoy me to see bikers who don't follow the rules of the road, especially stopping at stop signs and red lights. As a pedestrian, I see bikers weave on and off the sidewalk, or even use the sidewalk instead of a designated, curbed-off bike lane. So, while I don't think any of those infractions are worth death or bodily injury, I confess that I do get mad when I'm driving or walking and I see bikers do those things.
In my area there's a lot of tension between people who bike long-distances in the country for fun and people who live in the country towns. There are several big bike races in my rolling, scenic area, and every weekend thousands of bikers head out for rides on their own. Rural residents don't like the congestion and claim that bikers do plenty of inconsiderate things (litter, race spectators spray-paint messages on the roads, etc). When Ironman came through last year they had to give a $5,000 deposit to one town for cleanup or they weren't going to be allowed through for the bike race.
Just some more information for you to consider--I know all bikers don't do those things--just a handful of bikers and their fans. And probably a large part of the equation is ignorant motorists or people with rage issues.
posted by handful of rain at 4:47 AM on October 12, 2005
That said, to echo what was said above, it does really annoy me to see bikers who don't follow the rules of the road, especially stopping at stop signs and red lights. As a pedestrian, I see bikers weave on and off the sidewalk, or even use the sidewalk instead of a designated, curbed-off bike lane. So, while I don't think any of those infractions are worth death or bodily injury, I confess that I do get mad when I'm driving or walking and I see bikers do those things.
In my area there's a lot of tension between people who bike long-distances in the country for fun and people who live in the country towns. There are several big bike races in my rolling, scenic area, and every weekend thousands of bikers head out for rides on their own. Rural residents don't like the congestion and claim that bikers do plenty of inconsiderate things (litter, race spectators spray-paint messages on the roads, etc). When Ironman came through last year they had to give a $5,000 deposit to one town for cleanup or they weren't going to be allowed through for the bike race.
Just some more information for you to consider--I know all bikers don't do those things--just a handful of bikers and their fans. And probably a large part of the equation is ignorant motorists or people with rage issues.
posted by handful of rain at 4:47 AM on October 12, 2005
And then add to that the fact that there are genuine asshole cyclists out there that go out of their way to piss auto drivers off, and anyone that is feeling ill disposed towards bikes already is going to remember an encounter with such a person above all else.
I'll vouch for this, though many cyclists find this too uncomfortable a truth. I was a recreational-only biker for many years. Then last summer I trained for a triathlon, and spent a lot more time on my bike as a result. I joined a local cycling group that did long rides weekly. I was absolutely shocked at their aggressive behavior with drivers. Many of the routes were on windy roads with narrow shoulders and speed limits of 25. Lots of local drivers were used to speeding on these roads, and would often cruise by at 35 or so. That's bad. However, the reaction from the cyclists was utterly childish. Grown men, fifty-something professionals, yelling 'motherfucking cocksucker!'. Yelling, 'Get your fat ass out of your SUV." Chasing one vehicle right into a driveway to yell at its driver.
I think these guys are using their cycling rights as an excuse to be a bit aggro and take out their aggression on some stranger. A good friend, who's a transportation cyclist, points out that these are probably the very same people who drive like assholes. At least, it's the very same attitude: misplaced rage.
I don't suggest it's all cyclists, all the time. It's definitely not. And much driver behavior is bad and unwarranted, too. But what I saw in the cycling group was not righteous rage and concern for safety, it was agression looking for bait, pure and simple.
Maybe there's a classist aspect to this. In the US, if you're not in a car but you're on the road, you really are a freak — maybe even considered trash — and deserve to be treated by asshole drivers accordingly (in their warped minds).
If there is a classist aspect, it would have to work the other way. In my city and others I know well, the majority of cyclists on the road are well-heeled middle-to-upper class folks, young and middle-aged professionals. The quality and expense of their gear attests to that.
posted by Miko at 6:27 AM on October 12, 2005
I'll vouch for this, though many cyclists find this too uncomfortable a truth. I was a recreational-only biker for many years. Then last summer I trained for a triathlon, and spent a lot more time on my bike as a result. I joined a local cycling group that did long rides weekly. I was absolutely shocked at their aggressive behavior with drivers. Many of the routes were on windy roads with narrow shoulders and speed limits of 25. Lots of local drivers were used to speeding on these roads, and would often cruise by at 35 or so. That's bad. However, the reaction from the cyclists was utterly childish. Grown men, fifty-something professionals, yelling 'motherfucking cocksucker!'. Yelling, 'Get your fat ass out of your SUV." Chasing one vehicle right into a driveway to yell at its driver.
I think these guys are using their cycling rights as an excuse to be a bit aggro and take out their aggression on some stranger. A good friend, who's a transportation cyclist, points out that these are probably the very same people who drive like assholes. At least, it's the very same attitude: misplaced rage.
I don't suggest it's all cyclists, all the time. It's definitely not. And much driver behavior is bad and unwarranted, too. But what I saw in the cycling group was not righteous rage and concern for safety, it was agression looking for bait, pure and simple.
Maybe there's a classist aspect to this. In the US, if you're not in a car but you're on the road, you really are a freak — maybe even considered trash — and deserve to be treated by asshole drivers accordingly (in their warped minds).
If there is a classist aspect, it would have to work the other way. In my city and others I know well, the majority of cyclists on the road are well-heeled middle-to-upper class folks, young and middle-aged professionals. The quality and expense of their gear attests to that.
posted by Miko at 6:27 AM on October 12, 2005
I had one guy, a few years ago, give me the finger...then go up two lights and get out of his car swinging (no traffic, so I swerved around him), then head up two *more* lights and pop me a couple times. Sonofabitch only got supended sentence on the assault charge.
posted by notsnot at 6:39 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by notsnot at 6:39 AM on October 12, 2005
Well actually, in most suburban envrionments, especially as you get into the deep suburbs (at least in the Chicagoland area) not only are there no transport cyclists, there aren't even sidewalks. If you are not using a car to travel through these areas, you know, walking along the sides of large six-lane avenues that connect large strip malls, I think most people assume you are a service industry worker (busboy, waiter, etc.), probably a minority, obviously poor and quite possibly worthy of scorn or at least indifference. There are no cyclists on those streets. Suburban cyclists only take forest bike paths as a leisure activity, they don't use the bike to get around. Seeing a cyclist use the bike in a utilitarian way would be pretty freaky for the deep suburban denizen, I think that many may see it as a sign of desperation.
posted by sic at 6:39 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by sic at 6:39 AM on October 12, 2005
Perhaps this is more a matter of perception than anything else?
As a bicyclist, you are (usually) more situationally aware than as a driver. There are a number of reasons for this, but the two big ones are: 1. You're the one actually providing the forward momentum, not dead dinosaurs; 2. An accident will be a lot more painful.
Given this, I would suggest that bicyclists mistake active driver aggression with passive driver complacency/idiocy--plus a smidgeon of "all these crazy motherfuckers are out to get me" paranoia.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:15 AM on October 12, 2005
As a bicyclist, you are (usually) more situationally aware than as a driver. There are a number of reasons for this, but the two big ones are: 1. You're the one actually providing the forward momentum, not dead dinosaurs; 2. An accident will be a lot more painful.
Given this, I would suggest that bicyclists mistake active driver aggression with passive driver complacency/idiocy--plus a smidgeon of "all these crazy motherfuckers are out to get me" paranoia.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:15 AM on October 12, 2005
I would take the lack of suburban cyclists differently. It means that most cyclists end up being urban, and are biking in areas that are also unfriendly to cars. Not surprising they have a bad experience. There's a reason people don't like to drive in Boston.
Essentially it's a biased sample.
posted by smackfu at 7:15 AM on October 12, 2005
Essentially it's a biased sample.
posted by smackfu at 7:15 AM on October 12, 2005
If there is a classist aspect, it would have to work the other way. In my city and others I know well, the majority of cyclists on the road are well-heeled middle-to-upper class folks, young and middle-aged professionals. The quality and expense of their gear attests to that.
posted by Miko at 6:27 AM PST on October 12 [!]
In the area of Philadelphia I live and bike in, it is most certainly the other way around. Most cyclists are hippies or couriers, not people known for their extravagant wealth. I would not put myself in any well-heeled or middle to upper class, either.
Where I live, cycling really comes down to surviving naturally aggressive-to-psychotic drivers. We're not allowed on the sidewalks, and the cars won't let us use the roads, either. It's not a great situation to be put in.
posted by Rothko at 7:16 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by Miko at 6:27 AM PST on October 12 [!]
In the area of Philadelphia I live and bike in, it is most certainly the other way around. Most cyclists are hippies or couriers, not people known for their extravagant wealth. I would not put myself in any well-heeled or middle to upper class, either.
Where I live, cycling really comes down to surviving naturally aggressive-to-psychotic drivers. We're not allowed on the sidewalks, and the cars won't let us use the roads, either. It's not a great situation to be put in.
posted by Rothko at 7:16 AM on October 12, 2005
There are bad cyclists, just as there are bad drivers. "Same road, same rules, same rights".
In 4 years of cycle commuting in London, UK, I've experienced 2 incidents of driver rage. Both of them were simply because I was riding a bike. This is a lot fewer than some people. I put it down to riding defensively, and not doing stupid things like jumping red lights.
The first was when the underground rail network was shut down due to a strike, so EVERYONE was on the streets. It was busy as hell, there wasn't even room to overtake stationary traffic. So I was stuck between 2 cars. As the traffic approached a T junction, which joined us from the left (and we use the left side of the road, remember ;-) the guy in the merging traffic decided that his car should be where my bike was. He simply drove into me, at about 1 mph. As he approached, I stared at him in disbelief. He kept inching forward. As his bumper pressed against my leg, I had to get off my bike, pick it up, lift it over his car, and onto the pavement, then walk off. He had a blank look on his face, regardless of how much I shouted at him. People like that are simply dicks. Fortunately they are few and far between.
The second was last week. I turned onto a short one-way street, which had a car parked half-way up it. As I approached the car, another car joined the street behind me. He was travelling fast, and caught up with me as I was overtaking the parked car. Rather than wait for me to pass the car, he squeezed through with me, then pulled in front of me and forced me to stop. He leaned out of his window and told me that I'd pulled out in front of him. We spent a couple of minutes in frank and fruity name-calling exchange, then he sped off. As I pointed out to him, if I'd been in a car, he'd have slowed to follow behind me. That I was on a bike meant to him that I was an obstacle to his righteous speedy progression.
There have been one or two more incidents, but those have involved pedestrians who step into the road without looking. I've also seen cyclists who treat all other forms of transport with disdain, and apparently think they're immortal.
The roads were designed for wheeled vehicles. Cars, trucks, buses, taxis, cyclists... all have a right to be there and should treat each other with equal respect. No one form of transport is better than the other; none is immune from being comandeered by an idiot.
posted by ajp at 7:47 AM on October 12, 2005
In 4 years of cycle commuting in London, UK, I've experienced 2 incidents of driver rage. Both of them were simply because I was riding a bike. This is a lot fewer than some people. I put it down to riding defensively, and not doing stupid things like jumping red lights.
The first was when the underground rail network was shut down due to a strike, so EVERYONE was on the streets. It was busy as hell, there wasn't even room to overtake stationary traffic. So I was stuck between 2 cars. As the traffic approached a T junction, which joined us from the left (and we use the left side of the road, remember ;-) the guy in the merging traffic decided that his car should be where my bike was. He simply drove into me, at about 1 mph. As he approached, I stared at him in disbelief. He kept inching forward. As his bumper pressed against my leg, I had to get off my bike, pick it up, lift it over his car, and onto the pavement, then walk off. He had a blank look on his face, regardless of how much I shouted at him. People like that are simply dicks. Fortunately they are few and far between.
The second was last week. I turned onto a short one-way street, which had a car parked half-way up it. As I approached the car, another car joined the street behind me. He was travelling fast, and caught up with me as I was overtaking the parked car. Rather than wait for me to pass the car, he squeezed through with me, then pulled in front of me and forced me to stop. He leaned out of his window and told me that I'd pulled out in front of him. We spent a couple of minutes in frank and fruity name-calling exchange, then he sped off. As I pointed out to him, if I'd been in a car, he'd have slowed to follow behind me. That I was on a bike meant to him that I was an obstacle to his righteous speedy progression.
There have been one or two more incidents, but those have involved pedestrians who step into the road without looking. I've also seen cyclists who treat all other forms of transport with disdain, and apparently think they're immortal.
The roads were designed for wheeled vehicles. Cars, trucks, buses, taxis, cyclists... all have a right to be there and should treat each other with equal respect. No one form of transport is better than the other; none is immune from being comandeered by an idiot.
posted by ajp at 7:47 AM on October 12, 2005
I've commuted by bicycle daily for 4 years without incident.
Last week a guy didn't see me at an intersection and just about hit me. He rolled down his window and apologized profusely, saying "thank god you have good brakes!"
I commute almost exclusively on major bicycle thorofares in the san francisco bay area, though, so my experience may not be typical.
posted by u2604ab at 8:15 AM on October 12, 2005
Last week a guy didn't see me at an intersection and just about hit me. He rolled down his window and apologized profusely, saying "thank god you have good brakes!"
I commute almost exclusively on major bicycle thorofares in the san francisco bay area, though, so my experience may not be typical.
posted by u2604ab at 8:15 AM on October 12, 2005
My guess:
1. Bicyclers are slow
2. Bicyclers are perceived as health-conscious or sporty Lance Armstrong wannabes and therefore pretentious and smug.
3. On the road, drivers only see cars. Hard to get angry at cars. With bikers, drivers see an individual human they can actually loath.
4. Most people don't drive for fun, therefore any activity they see as frivolous (biking) enflames their envy.
posted by letterneversent at 8:27 AM on October 12, 2005
1. Bicyclers are slow
2. Bicyclers are perceived as health-conscious or sporty Lance Armstrong wannabes and therefore pretentious and smug.
3. On the road, drivers only see cars. Hard to get angry at cars. With bikers, drivers see an individual human they can actually loath.
4. Most people don't drive for fun, therefore any activity they see as frivolous (biking) enflames their envy.
posted by letterneversent at 8:27 AM on October 12, 2005
A couple times while riding along quiet, lonely farm roads I've had guys in old 70's pickups try and run me off the road for shits and giggles.
I've also had a coworker that used to go absolutely insane when he'd see spandex-covered road cyclists go by. Like he'd just completely lose it and start screaming at them to get off the road and how dumb they looked, etc. I asked him why they stressed him out so much and he couldn't explain it. The moment he saw a road cyclist, he would go from completely calm to completely nuts.
So the takeaway for me is that there are a few bad apples that for some reason really hate cyclists being on the road.
posted by mathowie at 8:41 AM on October 12, 2005
I've also had a coworker that used to go absolutely insane when he'd see spandex-covered road cyclists go by. Like he'd just completely lose it and start screaming at them to get off the road and how dumb they looked, etc. I asked him why they stressed him out so much and he couldn't explain it. The moment he saw a road cyclist, he would go from completely calm to completely nuts.
So the takeaway for me is that there are a few bad apples that for some reason really hate cyclists being on the road.
posted by mathowie at 8:41 AM on October 12, 2005
I biked for a while in Boston and while nobody ever purposely tried to kill me I did have a few people yell at me to get out of the road or honk at me just for being there. A few weeks ago on Cape Cod I had my three year old on his bike seat and somebody made some really aggressive moves to get around us. It was actually safer for me to get further into the lane so that there was no possible way for him to pass me. I'm sure this annoyed him, but it was the right thing for me to do, especially since it was only a hundred feet until I'd be out of his way.
As for the road rage, I think people in cars are like people using the Internet. Even though you might be a perfectly nice, friendly, law abiding person, you have a sort of shield from the rest of humanity that makes you forget that you're dealing with real humans and turns you into a total asshole. People are so used to their cars that they often forget they're driving a big huge weapon. The guy who tries to run you off the road probably isn't the murdering type normally, it seems more like a game to him. "haha I'm going to teach this hippie a lesson!" That doesn't excuse what he's doing, of course. Murder is murder, even if the police might call it an accident.
Add to this the attitude a lot of people have that bikers are treehugging hippie scum who want nothing more but to tie up traffic, and bikers are in a bad situation.
posted by bondcliff at 8:47 AM on October 12, 2005
As for the road rage, I think people in cars are like people using the Internet. Even though you might be a perfectly nice, friendly, law abiding person, you have a sort of shield from the rest of humanity that makes you forget that you're dealing with real humans and turns you into a total asshole. People are so used to their cars that they often forget they're driving a big huge weapon. The guy who tries to run you off the road probably isn't the murdering type normally, it seems more like a game to him. "haha I'm going to teach this hippie a lesson!" That doesn't excuse what he's doing, of course. Murder is murder, even if the police might call it an accident.
Add to this the attitude a lot of people have that bikers are treehugging hippie scum who want nothing more but to tie up traffic, and bikers are in a bad situation.
posted by bondcliff at 8:47 AM on October 12, 2005
the rage some motorists feel towards cyclists is a result of most Americans thinking of bicycles as toys
John Forrester calls this the 'toy bike syndrome.' Bikes are toys or are for kids, and therefore don't belong on the road. I've been the victim of harassment (thrown pennies, soda cups, etc). I have not been seriously threatened by a motorist, either on a commute or recreational ride. Some people have shitty lives, shitty jobs, shitty spouses, shitty children, and maybe taking it out on a very vulnerable and defenseless cyclist makes them fell better.
posted by fixedgear at 8:48 AM on October 12, 2005
John Forrester calls this the 'toy bike syndrome.' Bikes are toys or are for kids, and therefore don't belong on the road. I've been the victim of harassment (thrown pennies, soda cups, etc). I have not been seriously threatened by a motorist, either on a commute or recreational ride. Some people have shitty lives, shitty jobs, shitty spouses, shitty children, and maybe taking it out on a very vulnerable and defenseless cyclist makes them fell better.
posted by fixedgear at 8:48 AM on October 12, 2005
I'm both a commuting and recreational cyclist, living in Austin TX. On the occasions when I've actually been hit by a car, it was always due to genuine driver cluelessness. And my scariest near-misses have also been the result of "selective blindness" on the part of the motorist (ie, I'm right in front of them and they don't see me). That said, I've had more instances than I can count of drivers making a special effort to intimidate me--changing lanes to brush past me, throw trash at me, and of course yell at me.
My impression is that there are very few motorists pathological enough to intentionally hit you, but there are plenty who are enraged enough to threaten you. And it's conceivable that someone in the latter group will in fact hit you: I was once picking up my car from getting some repairs, and was on crutches from being hit by a truck. Talking to the mechanic, I explained what had happened, and he said (without a trace of self consciousness) that sometimes when he driving and sees a "biker" on the road, he's got a mind to "brush them off the road." Astounded, I told him "don't do that unless you're prepared to kill him."
I do not notice a big difference in hostility between motorists in town and in the countryside.
posted by adamrice at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2005
My impression is that there are very few motorists pathological enough to intentionally hit you, but there are plenty who are enraged enough to threaten you. And it's conceivable that someone in the latter group will in fact hit you: I was once picking up my car from getting some repairs, and was on crutches from being hit by a truck. Talking to the mechanic, I explained what had happened, and he said (without a trace of self consciousness) that sometimes when he driving and sees a "biker" on the road, he's got a mind to "brush them off the road." Astounded, I told him "don't do that unless you're prepared to kill him."
I do not notice a big difference in hostility between motorists in town and in the countryside.
posted by adamrice at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2005
I have on a few occasions been swerved into slowly by drivers who want to hit me with their mirrors as I wait at a traffic light.
I know it's deliberate because they're looking at me with that goofy, half-hate-filled, half-who-me? look while they drive up to the light.
Not to excuse them in the slightest, but it's really quite possible they don't see you and connect your existence with their driving algorithm. They're looking for the important things, namely cars, and all other objects are being screened out as input to driving decisions. (In a perfect world, such people wouldn't be allowed to drive, but we live here.)
I am neither a driver (never had a license) nor a bicyclist, but as a pedestrian I've been nearly driven over, very slowly, in broad daylight, by a savage who ignored any object that wasn't a car. I've also been yelled at for pressing the button to obtain a walk signal. Some of these issues are not directly about bicycles.
posted by Aknaton at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2005
I know it's deliberate because they're looking at me with that goofy, half-hate-filled, half-who-me? look while they drive up to the light.
Not to excuse them in the slightest, but it's really quite possible they don't see you and connect your existence with their driving algorithm. They're looking for the important things, namely cars, and all other objects are being screened out as input to driving decisions. (In a perfect world, such people wouldn't be allowed to drive, but we live here.)
I am neither a driver (never had a license) nor a bicyclist, but as a pedestrian I've been nearly driven over, very slowly, in broad daylight, by a savage who ignored any object that wasn't a car. I've also been yelled at for pressing the button to obtain a walk signal. Some of these issues are not directly about bicycles.
posted by Aknaton at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2005
My guess is that people have a bad tendency to overgeneralize with cyclists because there are so few of them in relation to the number of cars on the road. Add that to the fact that many people don't notice them [even in places where they really should, like stop lights or what have you] and you wind up in a situation where the only time they DO notice is when a cyclist does something lousy.
Many car drivers are sort of unfamiliar with cycling culture generally and as a result when cyclists do things like blow through stop lights, they'll think "Hey if I tried that, I'd get a ticket!" and there is a feeling that cyclists are lawless. Many car drivers seem to feel that cyclists who flout traffic rules never get caught or get in trouble for breaking the rules of the road and there sometimes seems to be this vigilante justice thing going on. In combination with the fact that a lot of drivers don't know what the rules of the road are for cyclists and you get a bad combination of
1. incorrect assumptions "hey that guy isn't supposed to be doing that"
2. feeling there is no justice "hey who is going to stop that guy from going through that light"
3. bizarre attitude of retribution "I'll have to take matters into my own hands!"
4. overgeneralizing from one bad cyclists to the all cyclists are bad attitude
Most people have both "this car tried to kill/hurt me when I was on my bike" stories as well as "this cyclists did something crazy and dangerous on the road when I was in my car" stories, though since I don't know too many of the "I really tried to nail this cyclist, just for being in the road" dudes, I can't go much further than that except to say that I do know some people like mathowie describes who just go bizarre-aggro when they see spandexed up cyclists and I've always been baffled by it.
posted by jessamyn at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2005
Many car drivers are sort of unfamiliar with cycling culture generally and as a result when cyclists do things like blow through stop lights, they'll think "Hey if I tried that, I'd get a ticket!" and there is a feeling that cyclists are lawless. Many car drivers seem to feel that cyclists who flout traffic rules never get caught or get in trouble for breaking the rules of the road and there sometimes seems to be this vigilante justice thing going on. In combination with the fact that a lot of drivers don't know what the rules of the road are for cyclists and you get a bad combination of
1. incorrect assumptions "hey that guy isn't supposed to be doing that"
2. feeling there is no justice "hey who is going to stop that guy from going through that light"
3. bizarre attitude of retribution "I'll have to take matters into my own hands!"
4. overgeneralizing from one bad cyclists to the all cyclists are bad attitude
Most people have both "this car tried to kill/hurt me when I was on my bike" stories as well as "this cyclists did something crazy and dangerous on the road when I was in my car" stories, though since I don't know too many of the "I really tried to nail this cyclist, just for being in the road" dudes, I can't go much further than that except to say that I do know some people like mathowie describes who just go bizarre-aggro when they see spandexed up cyclists and I've always been baffled by it.
posted by jessamyn at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2005
Several have raised a point that is probably overlooked: spandex and bike helmets. These things are not "normal" clothing, and it marks a cyclist as in a different group. People are naturally able to dehumanize those who are out of group.
The thing that macho guys I know complain the loudest about when it comes to cyclists is not their behavior, but rather their attire (I'm looking at you, Dad).
posted by teece at 8:53 AM on October 12, 2005
The thing that macho guys I know complain the loudest about when it comes to cyclists is not their behavior, but rather their attire (I'm looking at you, Dad).
posted by teece at 8:53 AM on October 12, 2005
However, it is exacerbated by a sizeable proportion of the many cyclists here being absolute idiots on the road, jumping red lights, using no lights when it's dark and generally bimbling along oblivious to the traffic around them.
Precisely. And not signalling. And riding down one-way streets the wrong way. And thinking they have the right to ride on the sidewalk. But especially, oh-so-especially, the jumping of red lights and just assuming any oncoming drivers will slow down for them.
All of this is almost standard behaviour for New York cyclists and even as a pedestrian it makes me damned furious at them. They bleat about drivers thinking the road belongs to them but so many cyclists act as though both the road and the sidewalk belong to them yet the rules of the road and sidewalk belong only to drivers.
I've actually had to painstakingly explain to cyclists why jumping a red light is NOT OKAY, even if they can see that nothing is coming. That's how up their own trim arses a lot of them are and that's why they get raged at.
posted by Decani at 9:14 AM on October 12, 2005
Precisely. And not signalling. And riding down one-way streets the wrong way. And thinking they have the right to ride on the sidewalk. But especially, oh-so-especially, the jumping of red lights and just assuming any oncoming drivers will slow down for them.
All of this is almost standard behaviour for New York cyclists and even as a pedestrian it makes me damned furious at them. They bleat about drivers thinking the road belongs to them but so many cyclists act as though both the road and the sidewalk belong to them yet the rules of the road and sidewalk belong only to drivers.
I've actually had to painstakingly explain to cyclists why jumping a red light is NOT OKAY, even if they can see that nothing is coming. That's how up their own trim arses a lot of them are and that's why they get raged at.
posted by Decani at 9:14 AM on October 12, 2005
Oh yeah... cue outraged "I'm a New York cyclist and I don't do those things therefore your point sucks" posts. Whatever. Until cyclists get this point and start acting like full road users - with all the responsibilities that entails - the road rage will continue.
posted by Decani at 9:16 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by Decani at 9:16 AM on October 12, 2005
I have been the victim of a hit and run on a bike, when I used to commute to work in Minneapolis. I was regularly yelled at, sideswiped and otherwise abused by drivers. One favored tactic of jerk-drivers was to cruise up right behind and to the side of me as I drove on the far right of the lane, trapping me between the car and the parked cars on the right. They would get within a foot or so, and honk their horn. I became more aggressive in response to these incidents. Toward the end, I would retaliate against people who tried to hit me with their passenger-side mirrors by spitting into their open windows, hopefully into their face, or else by throwing gravel. Yes, that was over the line, and no they never caught me, though some tried.
The hit-and-run accident, my third (!) in three years, destroyed my bike. I concluded that I should not be biking in Minneapolis. Though the final incident was fully the car's fault, I had proven to myself that at that time, in that city, I should not commute via bike. I just didn't like how aggressive I felt I had to be to survive on the road. Several years later in Portland, I am strongly considering biking again. I think I can remain calmer and more wary this time. I won't load up with self-defense-gravel anyway.
posted by Invoke at 9:16 AM on October 12, 2005
The hit-and-run accident, my third (!) in three years, destroyed my bike. I concluded that I should not be biking in Minneapolis. Though the final incident was fully the car's fault, I had proven to myself that at that time, in that city, I should not commute via bike. I just didn't like how aggressive I felt I had to be to survive on the road. Several years later in Portland, I am strongly considering biking again. I think I can remain calmer and more wary this time. I won't load up with self-defense-gravel anyway.
posted by Invoke at 9:16 AM on October 12, 2005
Been biking to work for years, have never had a bad encounter. Near accidents, yes, but it's just important to be aware when on a bike. Haven't yet been the victim of anything malicious--though, come to think of it, I have seen another biker yelled at by a guy in a car (I was on my front porch).
posted by dead_ at 9:25 AM on October 12, 2005
posted by dead_ at 9:25 AM on October 12, 2005
Just to add a little western US perspective here - about 15 years ago I was cycling on what was then a country road near Boulder, Co (east of there, actually). The guys I was riding with had gotten a bit ahead of me, I heard vehicle coming up and could hear whistling, yelling and general yee-haw-ness so I peeked over my shoulder and saw a pickup with a couple of 20-somethings coming up behind me. As they got closer the noise got louder (slapping the side of the truck, etc), so I found a spot on a curve where I could get off into the gravel safely (this was on a road bike with skinny tire). As it turned out, I did this just in time because they speeded up and would have taken me out if I hadn't been well off the road at that point. They braked hard (to keep from going off the road ahead of me), skidded their tires, and sped off, yelling as they went. I was shaken (and shaking), but fine. My friends heard the noise and very quickly came back, relieved to see that I was okay.
This was the worst, and may have been because I was not only a lycra-clad cyclist, but a woman and (apparently) alone.
During my commutes in the Denver area, I seldom saw truly aggro driving, but did get the occasional swearing at - apparently just for being a cyclist. I just smile and wave, while saying "fuck you" under my breath - I call the wave my "five finger flip-off," and find that it relieves my aggressiveness as well.
posted by dbmcd at 9:50 AM on October 12, 2005
This was the worst, and may have been because I was not only a lycra-clad cyclist, but a woman and (apparently) alone.
During my commutes in the Denver area, I seldom saw truly aggro driving, but did get the occasional swearing at - apparently just for being a cyclist. I just smile and wave, while saying "fuck you" under my breath - I call the wave my "five finger flip-off," and find that it relieves my aggressiveness as well.
posted by dbmcd at 9:50 AM on October 12, 2005
Until cyclists get this point and start acting like full road users - with all the responsibilities that entails
I don't get this. Why, exactly, are we supposed to treat bikes as though they were cars, and to think about the activity of bike riding as though it were equivalent to car driving? People who are really into bikes seem to take this for granted, but it makes no sense to me. Even a Yugo's mass is two orders of magnitude greater than my bike, and its engine's power output is two orders of magnitude greater than my legs. What is it about a bike that is supposed to divide it from a scooter, a skateboard, a pair of roller skates, or any other human-powered mode of transportation?
posted by Mars Saxman at 9:55 AM on October 12, 2005
I don't get this. Why, exactly, are we supposed to treat bikes as though they were cars, and to think about the activity of bike riding as though it were equivalent to car driving? People who are really into bikes seem to take this for granted, but it makes no sense to me. Even a Yugo's mass is two orders of magnitude greater than my bike, and its engine's power output is two orders of magnitude greater than my legs. What is it about a bike that is supposed to divide it from a scooter, a skateboard, a pair of roller skates, or any other human-powered mode of transportation?
posted by Mars Saxman at 9:55 AM on October 12, 2005
In Boston the only time I have a problem is late at night. Half-drunk drivers often will pull up next to me while I'm waiting at a red light (because I wait at red lights!) and, upon discovering that I'm a girl, either: yell at me to get off the road, or attempt to hit on me.
I don't like to break traffic laws, but it does amuse me to simply ride through the empty red light in response, leaving them stuck impotently at the intersection.
posted by nev at 9:56 AM on October 12, 2005
I don't like to break traffic laws, but it does amuse me to simply ride through the empty red light in response, leaving them stuck impotently at the intersection.
posted by nev at 9:56 AM on October 12, 2005
What is it about a bike that is supposed to divide it from a scooter, a skateboard, a pair of roller skates, or any other human-powered mode of transportation?
Because the law says it's a legal vehicle. Don't like it? Change the laws.
posted by nev at 9:56 AM on October 12, 2005
Because the law says it's a legal vehicle. Don't like it? Change the laws.
posted by nev at 9:56 AM on October 12, 2005
many folks believe a cyclists is committing a grave offense by riding a bike on the city street
I don't doubt that there are a lot of people who believe that, but where on earth do they get such an idea?
I have also had pedestrian experiences like the ones Aknaton describes, but in at least one case, the jerk definitely saw me. He was looking right at me and mouthing off while he slowly drove his enormovan into me as I crossed the street. I could not hear him in his cage, but he heard me when I followed him into the store he drove to and told him what I thought of him. Oddly, he had nothing to say then. Just to make him perfect, he'd parked in a handicap zone without a permit.
I have also had drivers try and get me while on a motorcycle, without any provocation.
Sometimes it's blindness, but sometimes they really are assholes.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2005
I don't doubt that there are a lot of people who believe that, but where on earth do they get such an idea?
I have also had pedestrian experiences like the ones Aknaton describes, but in at least one case, the jerk definitely saw me. He was looking right at me and mouthing off while he slowly drove his enormovan into me as I crossed the street. I could not hear him in his cage, but he heard me when I followed him into the store he drove to and told him what I thought of him. Oddly, he had nothing to say then. Just to make him perfect, he'd parked in a handicap zone without a permit.
I have also had drivers try and get me while on a motorcycle, without any provocation.
Sometimes it's blindness, but sometimes they really are assholes.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:57 AM on October 12, 2005
I got hit by a car once.
I was on a sidewalk that runs parallel to a large road near a high way. The sidewalk is actually an official bike path, so that was fine. I was riding down a long, gentile grade and had the wind to my back, so I was going really fast, maybe 20 mph. I came up to the intersection and had a green light, so I didn't break or anything and then
boom this guy just pulls right into me, he was trying to do a right turn on red and didn't see me because I was on the 'sidewalk'.
He wasn't trying to hit me, in fact he wrote me a check for $200 on the spot (and it ultimately cost me $50 to fix my bike, although my knee ached for months after that)
So that's my story. I also have a friend who had a similar incident as a child, but believe it or not the driver didn't get in trouble because he had been riding on the sidewalk!
posted by delmoi at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2005
I was on a sidewalk that runs parallel to a large road near a high way. The sidewalk is actually an official bike path, so that was fine. I was riding down a long, gentile grade and had the wind to my back, so I was going really fast, maybe 20 mph. I came up to the intersection and had a green light, so I didn't break or anything and then
boom this guy just pulls right into me, he was trying to do a right turn on red and didn't see me because I was on the 'sidewalk'.
He wasn't trying to hit me, in fact he wrote me a check for $200 on the spot (and it ultimately cost me $50 to fix my bike, although my knee ached for months after that)
So that's my story. I also have a friend who had a similar incident as a child, but believe it or not the driver didn't get in trouble because he had been riding on the sidewalk!
posted by delmoi at 10:10 AM on October 12, 2005
People who ride bikes around here (rural IL) have either lost their licenses due to too many DUIs, are children, or are Amish.
I've occasionally seen families out riding together in the evenings, or the wheelchair bike riders training on country roads--now that is scary to come up on out of nowhere when I'm driving. The wheelchair riders are hard to see. You really have to be careful when driving in rural areas.
posted by cass at 10:19 AM on October 12, 2005
I've occasionally seen families out riding together in the evenings, or the wheelchair bike riders training on country roads--now that is scary to come up on out of nowhere when I'm driving. The wheelchair riders are hard to see. You really have to be careful when driving in rural areas.
posted by cass at 10:19 AM on October 12, 2005
I live in Boston and, as a hard-core bike commuter for a number of years, I can tell you that there are some very angry people out there.
I can't say I've ever had someone deliberately try to kill me, which I think has to do with the fact that even the most simian individuals understand the consequences of vehicular homicide.
However, I've had people swerve at me, stop short deliberately in front of me, try to force me off the road, lay on their horn, tailgate me, try to clothesline me with their arm, attempt to door me, and throw stuff at me.
Riding defensively at all times, and being very visible, are the best remedies for angry driver behavior.
posted by killdevil at 10:27 AM on October 12, 2005
I can't say I've ever had someone deliberately try to kill me, which I think has to do with the fact that even the most simian individuals understand the consequences of vehicular homicide.
However, I've had people swerve at me, stop short deliberately in front of me, try to force me off the road, lay on their horn, tailgate me, try to clothesline me with their arm, attempt to door me, and throw stuff at me.
Riding defensively at all times, and being very visible, are the best remedies for angry driver behavior.
posted by killdevil at 10:27 AM on October 12, 2005
I live in Portland, Or, which is very bike-friendly. I commute to downtown everyday and have only occasionally had problems. When I do have a problem it's usually just 'driver-error.' People have always been polite, as long as I'm polite. Portland may be an exception - we have lots of established bike lanes and a local culture that respects healthy exercise and responsible uses of resources.
The only time I get nervous is if I end up in the suburbs. I don't know why, but suburban drivers either actively dislike cyclists, or are unsure of how to drive around us. I chalk it up to inexperience.
posted by elwoodwiles at 10:30 AM on October 12, 2005
The only time I get nervous is if I end up in the suburbs. I don't know why, but suburban drivers either actively dislike cyclists, or are unsure of how to drive around us. I chalk it up to inexperience.
posted by elwoodwiles at 10:30 AM on October 12, 2005
Decani: And thinking they have the right to ride on the sidewalk. But especially, oh-so-especially, the jumping of red lights and just assuming any oncoming drivers will slow down for them.
All of this is almost standard behaviour for New York cyclists and even as a pedestrian it makes me damned furious at them.
You do know pedestrians do the same thing in New York, don't you? The only time I ever came close to hitting pedestrians when I bike commuted was when they were crossing against the light and figured that since I wasn't going to kill them, they didn't have to move.
Anyway, to answer the original question, most of the driver rage I observed in Brooklyn was due to me being slow and taking up the "whole road," either to avoid being doored or because there was parking on both sides *and* a double-parked car, leaving room only for me. So that plays into the "you're slower and in my way" business. The only time I almost was hit was when a driver turned right across me--I think she didn't see me, but it was scary.
posted by dame at 10:48 AM on October 12, 2005
All of this is almost standard behaviour for New York cyclists and even as a pedestrian it makes me damned furious at them.
You do know pedestrians do the same thing in New York, don't you? The only time I ever came close to hitting pedestrians when I bike commuted was when they were crossing against the light and figured that since I wasn't going to kill them, they didn't have to move.
Anyway, to answer the original question, most of the driver rage I observed in Brooklyn was due to me being slow and taking up the "whole road," either to avoid being doored or because there was parking on both sides *and* a double-parked car, leaving room only for me. So that plays into the "you're slower and in my way" business. The only time I almost was hit was when a driver turned right across me--I think she didn't see me, but it was scary.
posted by dame at 10:48 AM on October 12, 2005
When I commuted by bike from Cambridge into Boston I don't recall a problem with acts of rage from automobile dirvers. As a pedestrian completing the end of a subway trip, I have. Go figure.
As a recreational rider on the roads of western Maryland, I have experienced inexplicable acts of rage where there was more road than imaginable to share. (Hit with sticks, deliberate close shaves, verbal assaults galore.)
As a scooter rider, I have been taunted more than once.
As a driver of another vehicle, I have experienced agressive driving by others.
The bottom line is that on a bicycle, the acts are much more threatening as 200 lbs. versus 3500 lbs. is not a fair fight. The acts of rage are more memorable and obvious on a bike. Who knows what passions we're missing when traveling in a closed vehicle of the same size that the person behind/adjacent finds annoying.
posted by Dick Paris at 10:54 AM on October 12, 2005
As a recreational rider on the roads of western Maryland, I have experienced inexplicable acts of rage where there was more road than imaginable to share. (Hit with sticks, deliberate close shaves, verbal assaults galore.)
As a scooter rider, I have been taunted more than once.
As a driver of another vehicle, I have experienced agressive driving by others.
The bottom line is that on a bicycle, the acts are much more threatening as 200 lbs. versus 3500 lbs. is not a fair fight. The acts of rage are more memorable and obvious on a bike. Who knows what passions we're missing when traveling in a closed vehicle of the same size that the person behind/adjacent finds annoying.
posted by Dick Paris at 10:54 AM on October 12, 2005
I've heard of people putting NRA stickers on their bike helmets and stuff like that to ward off road-ragers.
One way to stave off road-ragy drivers, I would imagine is to get a concealed-carry license for a gun, and get a very visible shoulder holster for it for when you're on your bike. Seeing a gun will make people more aggressive, but they are unlikely to do anything to get themselves shot, I would imagine.
If were forced to bicyle in a place where this type of thing were common, I would consider it..
posted by delmoi at 10:59 AM on October 12, 2005
One way to stave off road-ragy drivers, I would imagine is to get a concealed-carry license for a gun, and get a very visible shoulder holster for it for when you're on your bike. Seeing a gun will make people more aggressive, but they are unlikely to do anything to get themselves shot, I would imagine.
If were forced to bicyle in a place where this type of thing were common, I would consider it..
posted by delmoi at 10:59 AM on October 12, 2005
This is my first year of bicycle commuting and I must say, I've had quite the opposite experience. My daily route takes me 6 or so miles on 35-45 mph, two lane roads in a suburban area, before I hit a park (where cyclists are expected). The main roads in my area don't have bike lanes per se, but they do have wide berms, which keeps me out of the way of traffic for the majority of my ride.
Drivers have been more than considerate with me. In the early morning I will get a friendly flash of the brights to let me know they are coming up behind (at least I'm assuming it's friendly). When I need to enter the interscetion (e.g. to make a left hand turn), I signal and traffic slows down to let me in.
On occasion, in the dark morning, cars coast through stop signs, causing potential close calls as I ride past them, but even with all the blinkers in the world, I'm probably still hard to see in the morning time. Otherwise, I've only had two memorable incidents of annoyed drivers, and both were younger, high school students. I did not feel threatend on either occasion.
I practice vehicular riding, signal my intent, and obey the laws of the road, but admittedly I have made stupid moves, just as I have in an automobile. I usually realize as I'm doing them that my movements/decisions can be very confusing for someone in a car. I try to learn from these experiences and correct myself immediately.
posted by bwilms at 11:01 AM on October 12, 2005
Drivers have been more than considerate with me. In the early morning I will get a friendly flash of the brights to let me know they are coming up behind (at least I'm assuming it's friendly). When I need to enter the interscetion (e.g. to make a left hand turn), I signal and traffic slows down to let me in.
On occasion, in the dark morning, cars coast through stop signs, causing potential close calls as I ride past them, but even with all the blinkers in the world, I'm probably still hard to see in the morning time. Otherwise, I've only had two memorable incidents of annoyed drivers, and both were younger, high school students. I did not feel threatend on either occasion.
I practice vehicular riding, signal my intent, and obey the laws of the road, but admittedly I have made stupid moves, just as I have in an automobile. I usually realize as I'm doing them that my movements/decisions can be very confusing for someone in a car. I try to learn from these experiences and correct myself immediately.
posted by bwilms at 11:01 AM on October 12, 2005
Those quasi-legal electric moped/scooter things are all the rage in my town these days.
In the past two days I have twice witnessed asswipes riding them on the sidewalk. WTF Jack? I'm about to get frigging sidewalk rage, I am.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:27 AM on October 12, 2005
In the past two days I have twice witnessed asswipes riding them on the sidewalk. WTF Jack? I'm about to get frigging sidewalk rage, I am.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:27 AM on October 12, 2005
Long time cyclist here. I ride in suburban Long Island, NY. And I have been yelled at, beeped at, "swerved into", and had things thrown at me. Not all the time, but there's usually something, say, every 2 or 3 rides. I've also been hit three times (only dislodged once), but one of them was my fault (I've since learned to ride "vehicularly").
Some thoughts... I think most drivers are not aware of the laws - that is, that bicycles are vehicles and should act and be treated as such. Unfortunately, many cyclists do not follow these rules (stopping at lights/signs, signaling, riding on the right side, etc.). So the driver road rage is compounded - their own ignorance + poor cyclist behavior.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 11:46 AM on October 12, 2005
Some thoughts... I think most drivers are not aware of the laws - that is, that bicycles are vehicles and should act and be treated as such. Unfortunately, many cyclists do not follow these rules (stopping at lights/signs, signaling, riding on the right side, etc.). So the driver road rage is compounded - their own ignorance + poor cyclist behavior.
posted by ObscureReferenceMan at 11:46 AM on October 12, 2005
Several have raised a point that is probably overlooked: spandex and bike helmets. These things are not "normal" clothing, and it marks a cyclist as in a different group. People are naturally able to dehumanize those who are out of group.
This is a great point, and Grant Peterson of Rivendell Bicyles wrote an article (first link) where he mentions this point exactly. If you look like an alien in spandex, bug-eye glasses and helmet, folks may want to marganilize you.
When I commute I look like a regular dork going to work, with the exception of my helmet (plain jane white) and reflective leg band to keep chain grease from getting on my Dockers. Maybe it is easier for folks to relate to someone who looks almost like them, except without the Ford Expedition?
What is it about a bike that is supposed to divide it from a scooter, a skateboard, a pair of roller skates, or any other human-powered mode of transportation?
Someone already said it, but bikes are vehicles in my state and are afforded the same road access as cars with a few exceptions. Also, I don't know too many scooter pushers (I assume you mean the non-motorized kind), skateboarders or bladders who can comfortably maintain 20 mph in traffic for long distances, as a cyclist can. The sight of a slow moving farm tractor, Amish buggy or front end loader doesn't send motorists into a rage, why should a bike?
posted by fixedgear at 12:48 PM on October 12, 2005
This is a great point, and Grant Peterson of Rivendell Bicyles wrote an article (first link) where he mentions this point exactly. If you look like an alien in spandex, bug-eye glasses and helmet, folks may want to marganilize you.
When I commute I look like a regular dork going to work, with the exception of my helmet (plain jane white) and reflective leg band to keep chain grease from getting on my Dockers. Maybe it is easier for folks to relate to someone who looks almost like them, except without the Ford Expedition?
What is it about a bike that is supposed to divide it from a scooter, a skateboard, a pair of roller skates, or any other human-powered mode of transportation?
Someone already said it, but bikes are vehicles in my state and are afforded the same road access as cars with a few exceptions. Also, I don't know too many scooter pushers (I assume you mean the non-motorized kind), skateboarders or bladders who can comfortably maintain 20 mph in traffic for long distances, as a cyclist can. The sight of a slow moving farm tractor, Amish buggy or front end loader doesn't send motorists into a rage, why should a bike?
posted by fixedgear at 12:48 PM on October 12, 2005
In regard to the comments on urban cyclists' treatment of pedestrians and their seeming inability to obey stop lights and traffic laws: I think it may be due, at least partially, to the fact that many of them are riding fixed gear bikes (which are illegal) and cannot stop because they have no breaks.
posted by benightedly_heedful at 1:47 PM on October 12, 2005
posted by benightedly_heedful at 1:47 PM on October 12, 2005
What could possibly be motivating these people (the aggro drivers)?
The incredible and absolute lack of respect that 99% of bicycle riders have for the law?
I regularly see riders (regularly as in daily) drive through RED LIGHTS (!! SERIOUSLY -- I'VE NEARLY HIT 2 ALREADY !! They seem to think at a T intersection if they can "squeeze in" traffic turning left won't smush them. I beg to differ, and carry a squeege and blood remover to prove it.) Furthermore they violate the following rules (which, I admit, some drivers also violate, however, they're hated as well, and they aren't 99%). For those that don't know they're violations of the law, I'll link the appropriate HTA sections:
- Don't pull over to let faster traffic through or ride in the passing lane when not intending to turn at the next intersection (except when you can pedal at the speed of traffic -- most people can't get up to 50 km/h and maintain it)
- Don't signal (hands or lights)
- Don't yield to buses
- Cling to vehicles
- Ride alongside running cars in the gutter (for a right turn, etc, to get ahead) [Pretty obvious this one is illegal, but I can't find the section]
- Run lights and stop signs and yield signs (ESPECIALLY stop signs. They're there for us *all*, not just people with motors. Even the "best" bicyclists I've seen run stop signs. I've never once seen a bicyclist stop. Ever. Period. Not even in other countries. Not even at intersections with traffic ready to hit the rider. It's really sad.)
- Don't have appropriate lighting on their bikes or reflectors
- Don't use appropriate turn lanes (ie: Turn left from the right turn lane)
- Ride the wrong way
- No horn
- Ride on the sidewalks (I believe this isn't in the HTA, but I assure you, it is illegal where I live. Ask a cop.)
- Ride without helmets (when under 18) (Again, probably a separate law -- it *was* illegal to ride without a helmet period on a bicycle, now anyone over 18 may wear it optionally)
- Ride into the curb without stopping (causing drivers to be confused -- do you want us to pass you? do you not?) [probably not specifically illegal, but incredibly dangerous]
- Ride with overloaded bicycles
- Bicyclists suck so awesomely here that there's a special section of the law just for them, to remind them they need to pull over and let others pass.
- Bicyclists need to STOP when being overtaken.
I almost crapped my pants the one time this year I saw a cyclist signal. It was like that man was Jesus himself. If he wasn't peddaling so fast I wanted to give him a cookie for being a good citizen. Hell, make that a new bike. I'd only have to give out one a decade so I can afford it.
OF COURSE, none of this is a reason to harm others, ever, but it stands to reason that the less reasonable among us drivers might not be able to contain their rage. I know one day I'm probably going to have to use that squeege, and I feel bad for that fact, but I follow the rules of the road, and while I often squeal my breaks to avoid the fools, *I* wouldn't put my life into my own hands like that. Heh.
(I should tape the idiotic stunts these bicyclists do, since I always have a dozen bicyclists tell me they NEVER see any of these things happen. One day...)
posted by shepd at 1:50 PM on October 12, 2005
The incredible and absolute lack of respect that 99% of bicycle riders have for the law?
I regularly see riders (regularly as in daily) drive through RED LIGHTS (!! SERIOUSLY -- I'VE NEARLY HIT 2 ALREADY !! They seem to think at a T intersection if they can "squeeze in" traffic turning left won't smush them. I beg to differ, and carry a squeege and blood remover to prove it.) Furthermore they violate the following rules (which, I admit, some drivers also violate, however, they're hated as well, and they aren't 99%). For those that don't know they're violations of the law, I'll link the appropriate HTA sections:
- Don't pull over to let faster traffic through or ride in the passing lane when not intending to turn at the next intersection (except when you can pedal at the speed of traffic -- most people can't get up to 50 km/h and maintain it)
- Don't signal (hands or lights)
- Don't yield to buses
- Cling to vehicles
- Ride alongside running cars in the gutter (for a right turn, etc, to get ahead) [Pretty obvious this one is illegal, but I can't find the section]
- Run lights and stop signs and yield signs (ESPECIALLY stop signs. They're there for us *all*, not just people with motors. Even the "best" bicyclists I've seen run stop signs. I've never once seen a bicyclist stop. Ever. Period. Not even in other countries. Not even at intersections with traffic ready to hit the rider. It's really sad.)
- Don't have appropriate lighting on their bikes or reflectors
- Don't use appropriate turn lanes (ie: Turn left from the right turn lane)
- Ride the wrong way
- No horn
- Ride on the sidewalks (I believe this isn't in the HTA, but I assure you, it is illegal where I live. Ask a cop.)
- Ride without helmets (when under 18) (Again, probably a separate law -- it *was* illegal to ride without a helmet period on a bicycle, now anyone over 18 may wear it optionally)
- Ride into the curb without stopping (causing drivers to be confused -- do you want us to pass you? do you not?) [probably not specifically illegal, but incredibly dangerous]
- Ride with overloaded bicycles
- Bicyclists suck so awesomely here that there's a special section of the law just for them, to remind them they need to pull over and let others pass.
- Bicyclists need to STOP when being overtaken.
I almost crapped my pants the one time this year I saw a cyclist signal. It was like that man was Jesus himself. If he wasn't peddaling so fast I wanted to give him a cookie for being a good citizen. Hell, make that a new bike. I'd only have to give out one a decade so I can afford it.
OF COURSE, none of this is a reason to harm others, ever, but it stands to reason that the less reasonable among us drivers might not be able to contain their rage. I know one day I'm probably going to have to use that squeege, and I feel bad for that fact, but I follow the rules of the road, and while I often squeal my breaks to avoid the fools, *I* wouldn't put my life into my own hands like that. Heh.
(I should tape the idiotic stunts these bicyclists do, since I always have a dozen bicyclists tell me they NEVER see any of these things happen. One day...)
posted by shepd at 1:50 PM on October 12, 2005
99% of bicycle riders
It's a small minority in my area, but I hear the same complaint. My observation is that the culprits are couriers or serious athletes who are riding fixed gear bikes, or wearing cleats, or whatever, and cannot bring themselves to come to a halt. I am a cyclist, and they piss me off too.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:26 PM on October 12, 2005
It's a small minority in my area, but I hear the same complaint. My observation is that the culprits are couriers or serious athletes who are riding fixed gear bikes, or wearing cleats, or whatever, and cannot bring themselves to come to a halt. I am a cyclist, and they piss me off too.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:26 PM on October 12, 2005
I ride fixed gear almost exclusively, and I have no problem stopping, signaling, or regulating my speed. I must be a one-percenter! Fixed gear bikes illegal? C'mon....
The law says a bicycle shall be equipped with a brake (note the spelling) that is capable of skidding the wheel on dry pavement. I use a front brake and I'm not really interested in locking up my front brake to the point where the tire skids (it might make steering a little tricky) but my bike stops just fine. A reasonably skilled rider on a brake-less fixed gear bike can lock the rear wheel up with his/her legs, causing the rear wheel to skid. Viola, in compliance with the law.
Doesn't this cut both ways? Every motorist can tell of hundreds, nay, thousands of cyclist infractions that they witness every single day. No cyclist that I know says 'all drivers fail to signal, all drivers pass too closely, etc.' although clearly some drivers do.
posted by fixedgear at 3:09 PM on October 12, 2005
The law says a bicycle shall be equipped with a brake (note the spelling) that is capable of skidding the wheel on dry pavement. I use a front brake and I'm not really interested in locking up my front brake to the point where the tire skids (it might make steering a little tricky) but my bike stops just fine. A reasonably skilled rider on a brake-less fixed gear bike can lock the rear wheel up with his/her legs, causing the rear wheel to skid. Viola, in compliance with the law.
Doesn't this cut both ways? Every motorist can tell of hundreds, nay, thousands of cyclist infractions that they witness every single day. No cyclist that I know says 'all drivers fail to signal, all drivers pass too closely, etc.' although clearly some drivers do.
posted by fixedgear at 3:09 PM on October 12, 2005
fixie -- I think i_am_joe's_spleen means that in the sense of "too cool to come to a halt" rather than "incapable of coming to a halt". or so I guess.
//
shepd has it exactly right. the couriers are, for the most part, imbeciles in this respect. the food delivery guys are living on some other planet where cars, pedestrians and intersections don't even exist. most of the rest of the cyclists seem to take these as good examples.
what always makes me laugh / pisses me off, is that the worst offenders seem to make up a majority of the TA members.
posted by dorian at 4:40 PM on October 12, 2005
//
shepd has it exactly right. the couriers are, for the most part, imbeciles in this respect. the food delivery guys are living on some other planet where cars, pedestrians and intersections don't even exist. most of the rest of the cyclists seem to take these as good examples.
what always makes me laugh / pisses me off, is that the worst offenders seem to make up a majority of the TA members.
posted by dorian at 4:40 PM on October 12, 2005
The incredible and absolute lack of respect that 99% of bicycle riders have for the law?
It varies by location, and I don't live where you do, but I think this is pure hyperbole.
I also see these stunts, but the brush ain't that broad.
posted by -harlequin- at 7:53 PM on November 7, 2005
Bicyclists need to STOP when being overtaken.
No they don't.
posted by raysmj at 9:24 PM on January 10, 2006
No they don't.
posted by raysmj at 9:24 PM on January 10, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
I know it's deliberate because they're looking at me with that goofy, half-hate-filled, half-who-me? look while they drive up to the light.
The kicker is that when I get hit, they look surprised, as if it was my fault they hit me with their side mirror.
After the second time, I now fall into the side of their car and hope to leave a scratch or two before I pedal off. Call it
kcarma.posted by Rothko at 11:33 PM on October 11, 2005