What is the name for this music scale?
December 10, 2013 3:19 PM Subscribe
Trying to find if this minor scale has an actual name to it: the intervals are 1, 2, b3, #4, 5, 6, 7. In the key of C, the pitches would be C D Eb F# G A B C. I've been doing some research and the closest results I can find are either melodic minor (C D Eb F G A B) without the augmented 4th or the Hungarian minor/gypsy scale (C D Eb F# G bA B) which has a lowered sixth compared to my example. Is there a succinct scale name or mode that applies to my example, or can it only be described in terms relative to another scale?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Thanks for your help in advance.
Response by poster: That looks like it! Thanks
posted by andruwjones26 at 3:57 PM on December 10, 2013
posted by andruwjones26 at 3:57 PM on December 10, 2013
It's discussed in a forum here. But this commenter has a good point that "diminished" seems inappropriate:
posted by John Cohen at 3:58 PM on December 10, 2013
Revenant 03-18-2008, 12:12 AMHowever, I haven't found anyone else online calling this the "Lydian minor" scale.
Oops! "Diminished" is a term used about fifths exclusively. Your scale has a perfect fifth, but also a tritone from the tonic to the #4. That is, essentially a diminished fifth, but here it works like a fourth because its the fourth that is augmented and not the fifth that is diminished.
If you look at the lydian scale: 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7
You see that the only difference is that your scale has a minor third.
You have discovered the lydian minor scale, which really isnt a new scale at all but commonly used in jazz. You can call it melodic minor with a sharp fourth.
I'd use it over tonic minor-major7 chords for improvisation. Should give you an exotic sound.
posted by John Cohen at 3:58 PM on December 10, 2013
In fact, there is technically such a thing as a "diminished third," but it's enharmonic with a major second. Your scale doesn't have a "diminished" anything. It has a minor third, and a sharp fourth.
posted by John Cohen at 4:01 PM on December 10, 2013
posted by John Cohen at 4:01 PM on December 10, 2013
I always use the names for modes that I think will be the fastest for someone to understand.
I've heard this called Lydian Minor or Lydian b3. Gets the point across perfectly.
It's the fourth mode of the Harmonic Major scale.
Harmonic Major is pretty uncommon.
There are only two ways to create a 7 note scale using half steps, whole steps and an augmented second, and not get a chromatic run. This is one, the other is the much better known harmonic minor.
I like sticking strictly to harmonic major and lydian minor for a progression with a lot of I-iv. Pretty. Very unjazzy. Very late romantic/modern/radioheady, I think.
Focussing a melody on that augmented second really highlights it's unfamiliar, alien nature.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 4:11 PM on December 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
I've heard this called Lydian Minor or Lydian b3. Gets the point across perfectly.
It's the fourth mode of the Harmonic Major scale.
Harmonic Major is pretty uncommon.
There are only two ways to create a 7 note scale using half steps, whole steps and an augmented second, and not get a chromatic run. This is one, the other is the much better known harmonic minor.
I like sticking strictly to harmonic major and lydian minor for a progression with a lot of I-iv. Pretty. Very unjazzy. Very late romantic/modern/radioheady, I think.
Focussing a melody on that augmented second really highlights it's unfamiliar, alien nature.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 4:11 PM on December 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
This entire set of modes is underused and underrated. And the fact that it isn't over-the top weird or abrasive makes it even cooler. Or rather, it isn't over the top weird if you avoid playing all the seventh chords. It yields some triads that are familiar in non-diatonic progressions, and puts them in a context where you can stay diatonic to harmonic major while playing over them. Fun fun fun.
I'd kind of forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 4:22 PM on December 10, 2013
I'd kind of forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 4:22 PM on December 10, 2013
Also It's discussed in a forum here. But this commenter has a good point that "diminished" seems inappropriate:
Diminished is totally inappropriate. There are also a bunch of people making mistakes on that forum. Beware.
Also, why do people use exotic names for modes rather than descriptive ones? Calling it romanian this or hungarian that or using raga names? Silly. Out of context unless you're playing music associated with a particular culture.
No mode that one can construct using 12 equal tempered tones is inherently "from" a certain culture. The only way it's "from" somewhere is if you were influenced by another culture's music and force-fit it's scales (which in all likelihood aren't actually equal tempered) into our tuning system.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 5:08 PM on December 10, 2013
Diminished is totally inappropriate. There are also a bunch of people making mistakes on that forum. Beware.
Also, why do people use exotic names for modes rather than descriptive ones? Calling it romanian this or hungarian that or using raga names? Silly. Out of context unless you're playing music associated with a particular culture.
No mode that one can construct using 12 equal tempered tones is inherently "from" a certain culture. The only way it's "from" somewhere is if you were influenced by another culture's music and force-fit it's scales (which in all likelihood aren't actually equal tempered) into our tuning system.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 5:08 PM on December 10, 2013
Diminished is totally inappropriate. There are also a bunch of people making mistakes on that forum. Beware.
Yes, as I said, only one commenter pointed out the problem with calling it "diminished," and that person also made a mistake by saying that "diminished" can only apply to fifths. But I do think that person's suggestion to call it the "Lydian minor scale" is a reasonable one. Perhaps "Lydian harmonic minor scale" would be a more precise term (to be clear about the fact that the 6th and 7th are major).
posted by John Cohen at 5:34 PM on December 10, 2013
Yes, as I said, only one commenter pointed out the problem with calling it "diminished," and that person also made a mistake by saying that "diminished" can only apply to fifths. But I do think that person's suggestion to call it the "Lydian minor scale" is a reasonable one. Perhaps "Lydian harmonic minor scale" would be a more precise term (to be clear about the fact that the 6th and 7th are major).
posted by John Cohen at 5:34 PM on December 10, 2013
There's also a guy on the forum who thinks it's Dorian #5. But that has a flat 7 and is a mode of harmonic minor.
Lydian minor ought to be enough.
A lydian scale with a flat 7, 6 and 3 is totally unrecognizable as lydian. I can't see anybody misunderstanding it as that. (what the heck is that, anyway, one of the "hungarian"s?)
Here's harmonic major and it's modes. Note the very usable I, iii, III, iv and V triads.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 6:00 PM on December 10, 2013
Lydian minor ought to be enough.
A lydian scale with a flat 7, 6 and 3 is totally unrecognizable as lydian. I can't see anybody misunderstanding it as that. (what the heck is that, anyway, one of the "hungarian"s?)
Here's harmonic major and it's modes. Note the very usable I, iii, III, iv and V triads.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 6:00 PM on December 10, 2013
Or, if we are thinking of Lydian Minor, the consonant triads are i, II, V, vii and VII.
You can scan through any mode and seek out triads to base a composition on, or to use for a basis for superimposing the mode over conventional harmony. Or, if you're feeling adventurous, seek out harmony based on seconds/sevenths or fourths/fifths.
Personally, I think when a musician has worked their way through understanding the major scale and it's modes, they should move on to melodic minor (the only other way to arrange 7 half and whole steps without a chromatic run) and also harmonic minor and harmonic major. The three underused modes of the conventional pentatonic scale are also worth exploring.
Once you get into modes with chromatic runs in them, the tertian harmony you can derive becomes something of a clusterfuck. Those, the symmetrical scales, and the bebop 8-note scales are much more useful for deriving melody than harmony.
That said, the harmonic minor, harmonic major and melodic minor modes are all full of really fluid ways to transition between commonly used chords progressions that aren't diatonic to the major scale and it's modes. A lot of melodic usefulness there.
Unsolicited music lesson over. Have fun.
I've been doing this stuff intuitively having forgotten the theory for many years. Forgive the rambling. I really appreciate being reminded of all this stuff.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 6:15 PM on December 10, 2013
You can scan through any mode and seek out triads to base a composition on, or to use for a basis for superimposing the mode over conventional harmony. Or, if you're feeling adventurous, seek out harmony based on seconds/sevenths or fourths/fifths.
Personally, I think when a musician has worked their way through understanding the major scale and it's modes, they should move on to melodic minor (the only other way to arrange 7 half and whole steps without a chromatic run) and also harmonic minor and harmonic major. The three underused modes of the conventional pentatonic scale are also worth exploring.
Once you get into modes with chromatic runs in them, the tertian harmony you can derive becomes something of a clusterfuck. Those, the symmetrical scales, and the bebop 8-note scales are much more useful for deriving melody than harmony.
That said, the harmonic minor, harmonic major and melodic minor modes are all full of really fluid ways to transition between commonly used chords progressions that aren't diatonic to the major scale and it's modes. A lot of melodic usefulness there.
Unsolicited music lesson over. Have fun.
I've been doing this stuff intuitively having forgotten the theory for many years. Forgive the rambling. I really appreciate being reminded of all this stuff.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 6:15 PM on December 10, 2013
Ok one more thing.
This is really useful, one directory up from the last thing I linked. Knock yourself out.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 6:20 PM on December 10, 2013
This is really useful, one directory up from the last thing I linked. Knock yourself out.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 6:20 PM on December 10, 2013
My granddaughter, who's working on her Masters in Music, says it's G harmonic major.
I know nothing.
posted by aryma at 9:53 PM on December 10, 2013
I know nothing.
posted by aryma at 9:53 PM on December 10, 2013
Your granddaughter is right.
If you improvise in the lydian minor scale and stay entirely within it, you have to take great care to emphasize root motion and melodic motion resolving to the root and 5th of the mode, or you will find your western musical instincts pulling you to want to resolve any melodies or chord motion back to the relative harmonic major.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 11:02 PM on December 10, 2013
If you improvise in the lydian minor scale and stay entirely within it, you have to take great care to emphasize root motion and melodic motion resolving to the root and 5th of the mode, or you will find your western musical instincts pulling you to want to resolve any melodies or chord motion back to the relative harmonic major.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 11:02 PM on December 10, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by doctord at 3:51 PM on December 10, 2013