Am I really gonna dump someone over a dog?
November 28, 2013 9:52 PM Subscribe
New SO's dog is sort of a nightmare. Can this get better or is it time to jump ship?
I've been seeing someone for a few months whose company I thoroughly enjoy. As I'm at the point where I'd like to start thinking about long-term plans, both "settling down" and otherwise, I've been evaluating the relationship from an enjoyment perspective as well as a longevity perspective.
The enjoyment part is great - SO and I are very physically and intellectually compatible, and we're slowly growing comfortable getting to know each other on a deeper level. I REALLY wish I'd met SO before s/he acquired the dog, because I think this would have had the makings of a great relationship.
However -- in looking to the future of this relationship, I'm having difficulty picturing a shared future, primarily because of SO's dog. The dog (let's name the dog "Dog"), which SO adopted a year ago, is a 2 year old medium-sized mix, which, from guessing at its breed makeup, is both highly energetic and highly intelligent. Dog was a stray and appears never to have had any formal training. Dog is housebroken, but that's generally the extent of Dog's niceties. Dog will jump all over anyone who gets nearby, climb all over you and lick your face when you're sitting on the couch, pull all over the place when he's out for a walk, beg incessantly for food and attention, mouth/nip at you when you're petting him, and lunge at you and snap when you play tug-of-war with him. Dog has energy levels that WILL NOT SUBSIDE with exercise (think 2 walks and 45 minutes to an hour of play a day).
I like dogs and I've always considered getting one of my own (I've never owned one previously), but given my schedule and goals at present, I've been realistic about my inability to care for a dog and train it in the way I think is necessary. So in addition with my irritation with the dog's behavior, this is reflecting negatively to me on SO's judgment in getting a dog s/he wasn't willing or doesn't care to train properly. Add to this the fact that SO anthropomorphizes the dog's behaviors ("he means well" or "I want him to be able to make his own decisions") and I'm despairing of any potential change in the behavior.
So -- given that it's early in this relationship, do I cut bait and find someone else whose lifestyle choices are more compatible with mine? Do I have a conversation with SO about this? If so, HOW? Telling someone their dog is ill-behaved and it's making you want to break up with them seems like the ultimate communication minefield. Is it even worth it?
Throwaway at Rnubs@beddly.com if anyone needs further details.
I've been seeing someone for a few months whose company I thoroughly enjoy. As I'm at the point where I'd like to start thinking about long-term plans, both "settling down" and otherwise, I've been evaluating the relationship from an enjoyment perspective as well as a longevity perspective.
The enjoyment part is great - SO and I are very physically and intellectually compatible, and we're slowly growing comfortable getting to know each other on a deeper level. I REALLY wish I'd met SO before s/he acquired the dog, because I think this would have had the makings of a great relationship.
However -- in looking to the future of this relationship, I'm having difficulty picturing a shared future, primarily because of SO's dog. The dog (let's name the dog "Dog"), which SO adopted a year ago, is a 2 year old medium-sized mix, which, from guessing at its breed makeup, is both highly energetic and highly intelligent. Dog was a stray and appears never to have had any formal training. Dog is housebroken, but that's generally the extent of Dog's niceties. Dog will jump all over anyone who gets nearby, climb all over you and lick your face when you're sitting on the couch, pull all over the place when he's out for a walk, beg incessantly for food and attention, mouth/nip at you when you're petting him, and lunge at you and snap when you play tug-of-war with him. Dog has energy levels that WILL NOT SUBSIDE with exercise (think 2 walks and 45 minutes to an hour of play a day).
I like dogs and I've always considered getting one of my own (I've never owned one previously), but given my schedule and goals at present, I've been realistic about my inability to care for a dog and train it in the way I think is necessary. So in addition with my irritation with the dog's behavior, this is reflecting negatively to me on SO's judgment in getting a dog s/he wasn't willing or doesn't care to train properly. Add to this the fact that SO anthropomorphizes the dog's behaviors ("he means well" or "I want him to be able to make his own decisions") and I'm despairing of any potential change in the behavior.
So -- given that it's early in this relationship, do I cut bait and find someone else whose lifestyle choices are more compatible with mine? Do I have a conversation with SO about this? If so, HOW? Telling someone their dog is ill-behaved and it's making you want to break up with them seems like the ultimate communication minefield. Is it even worth it?
Throwaway at Rnubs@beddly.com if anyone needs further details.
Dogs look to their humans as the head of the pack. Your SO maybe does not understand this, or does not care. The dog is not being annoying on purpose, but your SO is doing the dog no favors by allowing it to play aggressively. Caring for a dog means in part giving it the training and control that will keep it from biting someone.
But to answer your question: you really do get to break up with anyone for any reason. And if you find it difficult to broach the subject of how they're raising their dog, how will you talk about finances, kids, and other really huge, difficult subjects?
posted by rtha at 10:09 PM on November 28, 2013 [12 favorites]
But to answer your question: you really do get to break up with anyone for any reason. And if you find it difficult to broach the subject of how they're raising their dog, how will you talk about finances, kids, and other really huge, difficult subjects?
posted by rtha at 10:09 PM on November 28, 2013 [12 favorites]
this is reflecting negatively to me on SO's judgement in getting a dog s/he wasn't willing or doesn't care to train properly. Add to this the fact that SO anthropomorphizing the dog's behaviours ("he means well" or "I want him to be able to make his own decisions")...
One thing that I would do is to separate the issue of the dog from the issue of not liking him/her behaviour and responses towards the dog. If the problem is just the dog, then you should absolutely talk to him/her about getting some training or rehousing it. However, if the problem is really that the dog has coincidentally caused a few seriously incompatible personality traits to be revealed, then yes, I would break up.
In other words, is the issue the dog, or that you're losing respect for her and her judgement?
posted by Shouraku at 10:22 PM on November 28, 2013 [6 favorites]
One thing that I would do is to separate the issue of the dog from the issue of not liking him/her behaviour and responses towards the dog. If the problem is just the dog, then you should absolutely talk to him/her about getting some training or rehousing it. However, if the problem is really that the dog has coincidentally caused a few seriously incompatible personality traits to be revealed, then yes, I would break up.
In other words, is the issue the dog, or that you're losing respect for her and her judgement?
posted by Shouraku at 10:22 PM on November 28, 2013 [6 favorites]
If you really like her, you could always help her train the dog rather than make it a wedge between the two of you.
I have a dog who sounds a lot like your girlfriend's dog. He's actually much better trained than that (and there are some things you described that are pretty serious red flags IMO, more on which later), but he's, you know, a big, smart, energetic, sometimes willful, not always perfectly behaved dog.
Like your girlfriend's situation, a lot of it is my fault. I work long hours and have had a lot of crazy life stuff going on, and I just don't have the time to bring my dog from "usually OK" to "best in show". Because I don't have the time to devote to him that I'd like, I tend to indulge him more than I strictly ought to.
You know what I would really love, if I had a new person in my life who liked me a lot, and wanted to like the dog, but recognized that the dog needed more than it was getting?
I would love it if that person would HELP me be a better dog owner, rather than realizing I'm not perfect and turning tail out of the relationship.
Now maybe you tried doing this, and she rebelled at your training pointers, or you guys drastically don't agree about the general approach to training a dog or what is appropriate dog behavior.
Here are some things I think you could casually do or say, if you haven't tried this sort of thing yet:
- "Want to go for coffee and take Dog to the dog park?"
- Buy the dog an EZ Walk Harness. My dog is a classic leash puller from way back, but the EZ Walk solved all our problems. If she's tried an EZ Walk, a Gentle Leader might be a good idea as well.
- Suggest taking the dog anytime you're going on a dog appropriate outing. (My dog gets a ton of his exercise and stimulation via outings, and I'm always on the lookout for new stuff he can tag along for.)
- Model consistency in front of her. The easy way to nip certain behavior things in the bud is to ALWAYS do things a certain way. Every time the dog jumps on you, Turn away and fold your hands across your chest. Ignore attention-seeking behavior.
- If jumping on you while you're sitting on the couch is a problem, can the dog be in another room? Or can you guys create some kind of routine that breaks the rhythm? I find that my dog gets into patterns of behavior, and if I can just change one aspect of the setting, it breaks the habit. My first question is whether your girlfriend encourages "kisses", and whether the dog thinks it's doing something to impress you.
- Has she done an obedience class with him at all? I bring this up because a lot of the behaviors you mention, like mouthing, nipping, and face licking, are very puppy-ish behaviors. I'm wondering if a class wouldn't provide good tricks to stop those behaviors, or at least put her in touch with a trainer who might be able to work with her one on one about that stuff. Maybe you could suggest doing the obedience class together, as a fun weekend project type thing?
posted by Sara C. at 10:27 PM on November 28, 2013 [29 favorites]
I have a dog who sounds a lot like your girlfriend's dog. He's actually much better trained than that (and there are some things you described that are pretty serious red flags IMO, more on which later), but he's, you know, a big, smart, energetic, sometimes willful, not always perfectly behaved dog.
Like your girlfriend's situation, a lot of it is my fault. I work long hours and have had a lot of crazy life stuff going on, and I just don't have the time to bring my dog from "usually OK" to "best in show". Because I don't have the time to devote to him that I'd like, I tend to indulge him more than I strictly ought to.
You know what I would really love, if I had a new person in my life who liked me a lot, and wanted to like the dog, but recognized that the dog needed more than it was getting?
I would love it if that person would HELP me be a better dog owner, rather than realizing I'm not perfect and turning tail out of the relationship.
Now maybe you tried doing this, and she rebelled at your training pointers, or you guys drastically don't agree about the general approach to training a dog or what is appropriate dog behavior.
Here are some things I think you could casually do or say, if you haven't tried this sort of thing yet:
- "Want to go for coffee and take Dog to the dog park?"
- Buy the dog an EZ Walk Harness. My dog is a classic leash puller from way back, but the EZ Walk solved all our problems. If she's tried an EZ Walk, a Gentle Leader might be a good idea as well.
- Suggest taking the dog anytime you're going on a dog appropriate outing. (My dog gets a ton of his exercise and stimulation via outings, and I'm always on the lookout for new stuff he can tag along for.)
- Model consistency in front of her. The easy way to nip certain behavior things in the bud is to ALWAYS do things a certain way. Every time the dog jumps on you, Turn away and fold your hands across your chest. Ignore attention-seeking behavior.
- If jumping on you while you're sitting on the couch is a problem, can the dog be in another room? Or can you guys create some kind of routine that breaks the rhythm? I find that my dog gets into patterns of behavior, and if I can just change one aspect of the setting, it breaks the habit. My first question is whether your girlfriend encourages "kisses", and whether the dog thinks it's doing something to impress you.
- Has she done an obedience class with him at all? I bring this up because a lot of the behaviors you mention, like mouthing, nipping, and face licking, are very puppy-ish behaviors. I'm wondering if a class wouldn't provide good tricks to stop those behaviors, or at least put her in touch with a trainer who might be able to work with her one on one about that stuff. Maybe you could suggest doing the obedience class together, as a fun weekend project type thing?
posted by Sara C. at 10:27 PM on November 28, 2013 [29 favorites]
The majority of a dog's behavior issues are actually issues with the owner. I say this as the owner of two dogs, one of whom has some lingering behavior issues that I should work on and be more consistent with. I also say this as someone who puts my dogs in their kennels when we are eating, or when I can tell they are annoying my guests.
posted by radioamy at 10:43 PM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by radioamy at 10:43 PM on November 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
What is considered acceptable behavior for a dog can vary widely from owner to owner, and per person in respect to various types/sizes of dogs. Some of the things you mention would fall into this range, and before moving forward with the relationship, you'd need to have a discussion about expectations.
It could be that your SO would react in agreement and be positive about making some changes. At the other extreme, they may feel your expectations are out of line, especially if you've never had a pet before. Of course, there's an entire spectrum in-between.
Your personal situation could be any of the above.
As for your "thinking about getting a dog yourself someday":
To me, your preferences suggest that you'd be best off with an easily trainable, low-energy dog, preferably trained by someone else... or, on second thought, maybe you should just get a cat.
posted by stormyteal at 10:54 PM on November 28, 2013 [8 favorites]
It could be that your SO would react in agreement and be positive about making some changes. At the other extreme, they may feel your expectations are out of line, especially if you've never had a pet before. Of course, there's an entire spectrum in-between.
Your personal situation could be any of the above.
As for your "thinking about getting a dog yourself someday":
To me, your preferences suggest that you'd be best off with an easily trainable, low-energy dog, preferably trained by someone else... or, on second thought, maybe you should just get a cat.
posted by stormyteal at 10:54 PM on November 28, 2013 [8 favorites]
is the SO open to taking obedience classes? you could do it as partners and it would be a help.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:04 PM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:04 PM on November 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Direct is a good way to go here.
I'm not comfortable taking your dog out in public. Nipping, begging and jumping on people are inappropriate behaviors. Do you want to take him to training together?
If she won't take him to a trainer, then you've got the answer your need.
posted by 26.2 at 11:17 PM on November 28, 2013 [10 favorites]
I'm not comfortable taking your dog out in public. Nipping, begging and jumping on people are inappropriate behaviors. Do you want to take him to training together?
If she won't take him to a trainer, then you've got the answer your need.
posted by 26.2 at 11:17 PM on November 28, 2013 [10 favorites]
Uhhhhhhhhh...look. Part of me thinks you must not actually like this person all that much, or you wouldn't really be considering breaking up with them so quickly, and over something so small. Which, if that's the case, more power to you; break up with them for whatever reason you want. But if this actually is someone you would otherwise see a future with, this strikes me as some princess-and-the-pea level nonsense.
You haven't mentioned a single way you've tried to resolve this problem yet; no obedience classes, no hiring of a dog walker (just so you know, 2 walks and 45 minutes of play isn't that much, if the dog's cooped up all day), no heart-to-heart talks, Just, my SO has this single flaw, should I go? And again, the answer is always, sure, go if you want. But to be honest, on the scale of flaws a possible partner could have, this seems insanely low down on the list - it's so potentially fixable, with some communication and some compromise, that I think you should at least try. If nothing else, it will be good practice, because as relationship issues go, this is not a minefield. It is communication 101.
In fact, once you're ready to walk away, no conversations are minefields - the exploding mine would be the breakup, and since you're already at that point, what do you have to lose? So maybe you should think about a few kind, honest openers, "I think we need o do something about the dog because he's really clearly unhappy, and it's making me unhappy too," and go from there.
Unless you're really just looking for an excuse to leave. In that case, go.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 11:17 PM on November 28, 2013 [47 favorites]
You haven't mentioned a single way you've tried to resolve this problem yet; no obedience classes, no hiring of a dog walker (just so you know, 2 walks and 45 minutes of play isn't that much, if the dog's cooped up all day), no heart-to-heart talks, Just, my SO has this single flaw, should I go? And again, the answer is always, sure, go if you want. But to be honest, on the scale of flaws a possible partner could have, this seems insanely low down on the list - it's so potentially fixable, with some communication and some compromise, that I think you should at least try. If nothing else, it will be good practice, because as relationship issues go, this is not a minefield. It is communication 101.
In fact, once you're ready to walk away, no conversations are minefields - the exploding mine would be the breakup, and since you're already at that point, what do you have to lose? So maybe you should think about a few kind, honest openers, "I think we need o do something about the dog because he's really clearly unhappy, and it's making me unhappy too," and go from there.
Unless you're really just looking for an excuse to leave. In that case, go.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 11:17 PM on November 28, 2013 [47 favorites]
This type of concern/incompatibility is exactly what "settling down" conversations are for.
Also, maybe not relevant but -- I have no idea how long your SO has had a dog, or if your SO is okay with the dog's behavior. It's okay if you aren't, but consider both that there's nothing abnormal about the dog or your SO's reaction to it's behavior AND that you haven't actually asked your SO to work on changing the dog's behaviors. To my mind, it seems really unfair to dump someone over something you haven't addressed.
At the same time, I think you should not take it uber personal if your boyfriend dumps you over this if you bring it up. Different strokes, different folks.
posted by sm1tten at 11:33 PM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
Also, maybe not relevant but -- I have no idea how long your SO has had a dog, or if your SO is okay with the dog's behavior. It's okay if you aren't, but consider both that there's nothing abnormal about the dog or your SO's reaction to it's behavior AND that you haven't actually asked your SO to work on changing the dog's behaviors. To my mind, it seems really unfair to dump someone over something you haven't addressed.
At the same time, I think you should not take it uber personal if your boyfriend dumps you over this if you bring it up. Different strokes, different folks.
posted by sm1tten at 11:33 PM on November 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
If it's you or Dog, tell SO that. Don't be ambiguous. Tell the truth. "Listen. Dog is the most annoying dog on the planet. It's me or Dog."
And if SO decides to keep Dog and dump you, well, that's that. Find someone who doesn't live with an insanely annoying animal.
posted by pracowity at 2:14 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
And if SO decides to keep Dog and dump you, well, that's that. Find someone who doesn't live with an insanely annoying animal.
posted by pracowity at 2:14 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Can you suggest dog-free zones (maybe the dog gets hall and kennel only)? I'd have thought some compromise short of breaking up ought to be negotiable.
posted by Segundus at 3:39 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by Segundus at 3:39 AM on November 29, 2013
First of all, don't blame the dog; blame the boyfriend for being a crappy dog owner.
Second of all, if you're willing to bail over this, then being up front about things is pretty low risk for you. "Look, I love being with you and I love Dog, but hanging out with the two of you while Dog is so poorly trained is unpleasant. There's a dog training class starting in January and I was going to sign us all up as part of your Christmas present. What do you think?"
posted by DarlingBri at 3:49 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Second of all, if you're willing to bail over this, then being up front about things is pretty low risk for you. "Look, I love being with you and I love Dog, but hanging out with the two of you while Dog is so poorly trained is unpleasant. There's a dog training class starting in January and I was going to sign us all up as part of your Christmas present. What do you think?"
posted by DarlingBri at 3:49 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
ok guys, OP here. I see a lot of responses essentially telling me I should be taking on half the training responsibility here, which seems unreasonable to me. if my schedule permitted for taking a dog to obedience classes, taking the dog for walks, etc, I'd have my own dog. but I don't, so I've been cognizant enough not to get one. meanwhile, my SO isn't working full-time at the moment and presumably has time to address these issues, but hasn't. also, the primary reason I haven't encouraged dog-accompanied outings is that then SO has to spend 95% of the time making sure the dog isn't charging all over the place jumping on or otherwise bothering people, and it's a complete waste of a date. (is this unreasonable, btw? as a non-pet-owner, I'm not sure if when you take a well-behaved dog on an outing, it's still going to require the primary focus of the outing to be on the dog, because as a very people-centric person I'd find it hard to get down with that.)
obviously not blaming the dog - the dog doesn't know what it's doing wrong. I'm irritated with SO for choosing an animal that's a poor fit for a small city apartment and not addressing its inappropriate behaviors. (also, the small apartment means there's no other room for the dog to be when I'm in SO's apartment, or space for a crate.)
that said - if you guys have suggestions on how to have an effective conversation about this, as opposed to my holding SO's hand into responsibly handling SO's own pet, that would be super helpful. and yes, I'll definitely briefly take it personally if SO turns out to be someone who puts pets on a pedestal and gets in my face about this, but eh, in that case, good riddance.
posted by chausette marionette at 4:01 AM on November 29, 2013 [14 favorites]
obviously not blaming the dog - the dog doesn't know what it's doing wrong. I'm irritated with SO for choosing an animal that's a poor fit for a small city apartment and not addressing its inappropriate behaviors. (also, the small apartment means there's no other room for the dog to be when I'm in SO's apartment, or space for a crate.)
that said - if you guys have suggestions on how to have an effective conversation about this, as opposed to my holding SO's hand into responsibly handling SO's own pet, that would be super helpful. and yes, I'll definitely briefly take it personally if SO turns out to be someone who puts pets on a pedestal and gets in my face about this, but eh, in that case, good riddance.
posted by chausette marionette at 4:01 AM on November 29, 2013 [14 favorites]
"Hey, I really like you and could see this going somewhere meaningful. But I've had something on my mind. The way Dog jumps and nips makes me want to avoid Dog. But I don't want to avoid you, because you're awesome! Do you have any plans to encourage Dog to be as awesome as you are? I'm thinking an obedience class might be a good start."
You will quickly see if your SO has any intention of becoming a responsible pet owner.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:15 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
You will quickly see if your SO has any intention of becoming a responsible pet owner.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 4:15 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
I would just break up - you've only been going out a few months and your follow up is full of "these are all of the ways in which this person does things I don't like." This is actually not really about the dog; it's more that they're using their time (and life) in a way that doesn't work for you.
posted by heyjude at 4:42 AM on November 29, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by heyjude at 4:42 AM on November 29, 2013 [14 favorites]
Dumb question : is dog neutered? My dog was just like this until we got him neutered and he calmed down.
Important question: is bf open and perceptive to this and willing to work with you to change his dogs behavior? If not then HE needs to go.
If that's not the case, then it sounds like your boyfriend needs to do a better job of getting dog the exercise he needs. My dog is CRAZY if I don't take him out for a solid hour in the morning and at night. I actually taught him to run with me so that is helpful to us both. What I found helps too is a dog walking service, not because it's an extra hour or two of roughhousing while I'm at work, but it also teaches him to compose himself around other dogs and people. Finally: the EZ walk harness is the best thing ever. It prevents them from pulling by placing negative pressure under the chin if they pull (they are humane, come in all sizes and helped my dog learn to even go off leash).
Do you bring dog with you places? I know it sounds like a nightmare right now, but you should consider it. If dog gets used to all sorts of situations and people, it all becomes old hat for him. Same goes for you, if he is used to you then he should calm down.
If none of that is an option, I would have a discussion with bf, he needs to take a harder disciplinary approach with dog, and age doesn't matter. Dogs are NOT like people and do not treat their relationships like a democracy. I'm not condoning that you get all Caesar Milan because I do not like that man, but establishing rules with dog are needed. And bf needs to be a responsible pet owner. It sounds like its only a matter of time until something happens to another person and it may not be you. :(
posted by floweredfish at 4:53 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Important question: is bf open and perceptive to this and willing to work with you to change his dogs behavior? If not then HE needs to go.
If that's not the case, then it sounds like your boyfriend needs to do a better job of getting dog the exercise he needs. My dog is CRAZY if I don't take him out for a solid hour in the morning and at night. I actually taught him to run with me so that is helpful to us both. What I found helps too is a dog walking service, not because it's an extra hour or two of roughhousing while I'm at work, but it also teaches him to compose himself around other dogs and people. Finally: the EZ walk harness is the best thing ever. It prevents them from pulling by placing negative pressure under the chin if they pull (they are humane, come in all sizes and helped my dog learn to even go off leash).
Do you bring dog with you places? I know it sounds like a nightmare right now, but you should consider it. If dog gets used to all sorts of situations and people, it all becomes old hat for him. Same goes for you, if he is used to you then he should calm down.
If none of that is an option, I would have a discussion with bf, he needs to take a harder disciplinary approach with dog, and age doesn't matter. Dogs are NOT like people and do not treat their relationships like a democracy. I'm not condoning that you get all Caesar Milan because I do not like that man, but establishing rules with dog are needed. And bf needs to be a responsible pet owner. It sounds like its only a matter of time until something happens to another person and it may not be you. :(
posted by floweredfish at 4:53 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
is this unreasonable, btw? as a non-pet-owner, I'm not sure if when you take a well-behaved dog on an outing, it's still going to require the primary focus of the outing to be on the dog, because as a very people-centric person I'd find it hard to get down with that.
So, so not unreasonable. And no, a well-behaved dog does not require your full attention at all times.
I'm not sure why so many people are accusing you of not caring for your partner or of not understanding dogs--you have presented your case very clearly. Your partner's dog sounds like a PITA, which is 100% your partner's fault for being a bad pet owner.
I agree that "have you ever thought about obedience training?" might be a good conversation starter. Definitely let them know that this is something that concerns you. If they know that, and still haven't made any changes, then that is a red flag on its own.
posted by chaiminda at 4:59 AM on November 29, 2013 [10 favorites]
So, so not unreasonable. And no, a well-behaved dog does not require your full attention at all times.
I'm not sure why so many people are accusing you of not caring for your partner or of not understanding dogs--you have presented your case very clearly. Your partner's dog sounds like a PITA, which is 100% your partner's fault for being a bad pet owner.
I agree that "have you ever thought about obedience training?" might be a good conversation starter. Definitely let them know that this is something that concerns you. If they know that, and still haven't made any changes, then that is a red flag on its own.
posted by chaiminda at 4:59 AM on November 29, 2013 [10 favorites]
suggestions on how to have an effective conversation about this
You, to SO, preferably shortly after Dog has misbehaved: "Hey SO, I really like spending time with you and see us settling down in the future. But I find it hard to handle Dog's behaviors sometimes. Would you be willing to look into obedience lessons? I'd love to be able to take Dog to the dog park, or around town with you, and not be worried about what he'll do. What do you think?" Then, listen carefully and see if he's open to your suggestions. If not, you know what you need to do.
That said, I would seriously consider ending the relationship now, but not (just) because of the dog. You are totally right about SO making a good number of mistakes with Dog. Dog certainly needs to have some of its behaviors modified. But your SO is also a human, and as such prone to making mistakes sometimes, and you seem remarkably unwilling to cut him/her any slack. (And I think giving the benefit of the doubt to our loved ones is a useful relationship tactic.)
For example, you mention that SO's Dog was adopted a year ago, is a 2 year old medium-sized mix, which, from guessing at its breed makeup, is both highly energetic and highly intelligent. Dog was a stray and appears never to have had any formal training, and go on to say I'm irritated with SO for choosing an animal that's a poor fit for a small city apartment. But, you don't seem willing to consider that SO may not have deliberately chosen such a difficult, high-energy dog...when you adopt a shelter mix, it can be hard to know exactly what you're going to get in terms of personality. Why so much blaming going on, instead of constructive criticism and helpful suggestions? What have you waited so long to address this with SO?
Also, if you want to settle down with SO, why so resistant to tackling challenges like this together? Sometimes being together long-term means (perhaps unfairly) helping SO with his/her issues. That is part of being in a grown-up relationship.
I absolutely think you're right to want more training for Dog, but unless you can present your arguments to your SO politely and kindly, and without attitude, I would not expect your conversation with SO to go well. SO will respond defensively and take your criticisms as judgments on his/her person, not his/her actions. Good luck.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 5:14 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
You, to SO, preferably shortly after Dog has misbehaved: "Hey SO, I really like spending time with you and see us settling down in the future. But I find it hard to handle Dog's behaviors sometimes. Would you be willing to look into obedience lessons? I'd love to be able to take Dog to the dog park, or around town with you, and not be worried about what he'll do. What do you think?" Then, listen carefully and see if he's open to your suggestions. If not, you know what you need to do.
That said, I would seriously consider ending the relationship now, but not (just) because of the dog. You are totally right about SO making a good number of mistakes with Dog. Dog certainly needs to have some of its behaviors modified. But your SO is also a human, and as such prone to making mistakes sometimes, and you seem remarkably unwilling to cut him/her any slack. (And I think giving the benefit of the doubt to our loved ones is a useful relationship tactic.)
For example, you mention that SO's Dog was adopted a year ago, is a 2 year old medium-sized mix, which, from guessing at its breed makeup, is both highly energetic and highly intelligent. Dog was a stray and appears never to have had any formal training, and go on to say I'm irritated with SO for choosing an animal that's a poor fit for a small city apartment. But, you don't seem willing to consider that SO may not have deliberately chosen such a difficult, high-energy dog...when you adopt a shelter mix, it can be hard to know exactly what you're going to get in terms of personality. Why so much blaming going on, instead of constructive criticism and helpful suggestions? What have you waited so long to address this with SO?
Also, if you want to settle down with SO, why so resistant to tackling challenges like this together? Sometimes being together long-term means (perhaps unfairly) helping SO with his/her issues. That is part of being in a grown-up relationship.
I absolutely think you're right to want more training for Dog, but unless you can present your arguments to your SO politely and kindly, and without attitude, I would not expect your conversation with SO to go well. SO will respond defensively and take your criticisms as judgments on his/her person, not his/her actions. Good luck.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 5:14 AM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Hey guys, sorry but a couple of comments deleted; this needs to be more about answering the OP's question than relating stories about bad dog behavior you've experienced. If you want to make it more clear how/if it directly relates to the main question here, go ahead and be specific about that. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:35 AM on November 29, 2013
posted by taz (staff) at 5:35 AM on November 29, 2013
Telling someone their dog is ill-behaved and it's making you want to break up with them seems like the ultimate communication minefield. Is it even worth it?
First of all, what you're describing here isn't really bad dog behavior, but that's besides the point. Yes, it is worth it to have conversations about things if you are looking to stay with someone permanently.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:11 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
First of all, what you're describing here isn't really bad dog behavior, but that's besides the point. Yes, it is worth it to have conversations about things if you are looking to stay with someone permanently.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:11 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
if you guys have suggestions on how to have an effective conversation about this, as opposed to my holding SO's hand into responsibly handling SO's own pet, that would be super helpful.
I had a SO who treated his dog like this too. He had been on his own & was pretty lonely, worked at home, etc. so all of the annoying lack-of-training behaviors were things that fed his need for connection.
The conversation(s) you have to have here are boundaries conversations. Making it about your time/body/energy is valid and doesn't get into the "you're a bad dog owner" quicksand.
From the beginning I made it about me: I don't want a dog in my face so I told the dog "no" consistently, every time she licked my face. I told him to keep her out of my face too, so she was allowed to lick his face but not mine. I don't want a dog in the bedroom if I'm with a partner and so I said "yeah I'll stay over but only if dog stays downstairs." So he kept the dog downstairs when I was there & she slept in his bed when I wasn't. He dressed in shorts & jeans all the time but I dressed for an office, so dog learned fast not to jump on me. After a few years SO & dog moved in w/me, and she learned not to bark at passersby and visitors when I was home because I stopped her every time. She still barked at him when he came home though, every time.
I felt sorry for the dog because she was clearly so smart & confused by the mixed messages she was getting. He never changed though. The dog itself didn't contribute to our breakup but his inability to take charge, refusal to deal with challenging situations, etc. became evident in more important ways, and that was why it ended. YMMV.
posted by headnsouth at 6:36 AM on November 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
I had a SO who treated his dog like this too. He had been on his own & was pretty lonely, worked at home, etc. so all of the annoying lack-of-training behaviors were things that fed his need for connection.
The conversation(s) you have to have here are boundaries conversations. Making it about your time/body/energy is valid and doesn't get into the "you're a bad dog owner" quicksand.
From the beginning I made it about me: I don't want a dog in my face so I told the dog "no" consistently, every time she licked my face. I told him to keep her out of my face too, so she was allowed to lick his face but not mine. I don't want a dog in the bedroom if I'm with a partner and so I said "yeah I'll stay over but only if dog stays downstairs." So he kept the dog downstairs when I was there & she slept in his bed when I wasn't. He dressed in shorts & jeans all the time but I dressed for an office, so dog learned fast not to jump on me. After a few years SO & dog moved in w/me, and she learned not to bark at passersby and visitors when I was home because I stopped her every time. She still barked at him when he came home though, every time.
I felt sorry for the dog because she was clearly so smart & confused by the mixed messages she was getting. He never changed though. The dog itself didn't contribute to our breakup but his inability to take charge, refusal to deal with challenging situations, etc. became evident in more important ways, and that was why it ended. YMMV.
posted by headnsouth at 6:36 AM on November 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
2 walks and 45 minutes of play a day doesn't seem like enough for the kind of dog you describe. that's pretty equitable to what my high energy cat gets a day (which is to say, less than a high energy dog needs).
on the relationship front, this dog will likely be alive for 10ish more years. any long term plans with your partner will include the dog for a significant time and at least some of the responsibility of the dog will fall to you. if that sounds untenable, you should break up.
posted by nadawi at 6:41 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
on the relationship front, this dog will likely be alive for 10ish more years. any long term plans with your partner will include the dog for a significant time and at least some of the responsibility of the dog will fall to you. if that sounds untenable, you should break up.
posted by nadawi at 6:41 AM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm sort of in your SO's place. I adopted a dog about a year ago, and while he's housebroken and cuddly, he's sort of an asshole. He jumps on visitors (when he's done barking), but worst of all he's really territorial when I have, er, gentleman callers. Leg humping, whining, barking, crying, barfing; he basically gets hysterical if I make out with someone.
I've had several romantic interests tell me how I should train my dog, what I should do with my dog, or how to handle it. I'm not with these guys anymore. Why? Because they mansplained. (And one even generously gave me a demonstration on how to choke(!!) my dog to assert dominance, and I got bit pulling his hands off.) Me, I know I've got a dog with issues. I train him the best way I know (by reading all the books suggested on the green, actually). If a guy I'd been seeing for a few months said, "It's me or the dog," well . . . . me and the dog wouldn't miss him a bit.
Now, we differ in that my dog is old. This dog is only 2 so there's a long road ahead. I think the only way to deal with this is head on:
"I really like spending time with you. I'm starting to see that this could go somewhere because we have such a great time and we fit together really well."
At this point, you should gauge the situation to see if they're in agreement with you. If not, well then, you don't really need to worry about their dog for much longer. But if they're nodding and smiling and saying, "Me too!", then:
"The thing is, I don't like being around Dog because he's just not trained. I don't like it when he jumps on me and licks my face. Walks aren't enjoyable because he pulls so hard. Would you consider training classes?"
It's up to you how much emphasis you'll put on this person's answer and what that will mean for your next decision about this relationship.
Now, all that aside: Make sure your plans realistically include this person's reluctance to take control and passivity (if s/he wants to let a dog make its own decisions, just wait until there are little kids running amok making their own decisions).
posted by mibo at 6:58 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
I've had several romantic interests tell me how I should train my dog, what I should do with my dog, or how to handle it. I'm not with these guys anymore. Why? Because they mansplained. (And one even generously gave me a demonstration on how to choke(!!) my dog to assert dominance, and I got bit pulling his hands off.) Me, I know I've got a dog with issues. I train him the best way I know (by reading all the books suggested on the green, actually). If a guy I'd been seeing for a few months said, "It's me or the dog," well . . . . me and the dog wouldn't miss him a bit.
Now, we differ in that my dog is old. This dog is only 2 so there's a long road ahead. I think the only way to deal with this is head on:
"I really like spending time with you. I'm starting to see that this could go somewhere because we have such a great time and we fit together really well."
At this point, you should gauge the situation to see if they're in agreement with you. If not, well then, you don't really need to worry about their dog for much longer. But if they're nodding and smiling and saying, "Me too!", then:
"The thing is, I don't like being around Dog because he's just not trained. I don't like it when he jumps on me and licks my face. Walks aren't enjoyable because he pulls so hard. Would you consider training classes?"
It's up to you how much emphasis you'll put on this person's answer and what that will mean for your next decision about this relationship.
Now, all that aside: Make sure your plans realistically include this person's reluctance to take control and passivity (if s/he wants to let a dog make its own decisions, just wait until there are little kids running amok making their own decisions).
posted by mibo at 6:58 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
Your SO sounds like a nice person, but immature. Understanding how to take on responsibilities is a life lesson your SO will have to figure out for themself. Advice and explanations may not work.
posted by ovvl at 7:24 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ovvl at 7:24 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you can tell an awful lot about someone by how they raise their pets -- their willingness to do difficult work vs. only doing the fun bits, their willingness to take responsibility for their choices vs. blaming the dog, their willingness to rationalize away the things they're not really willing to do.
If you want to try to save the relationship, you can certainly raise the issue of whether the dog is being properly trained/cared for. Maybe your SO sees some of the same problems you do, but doesn't know how to deal with it or feels overwhelmed at trying. Maybe they genuinely believe that this sort of thing is what dogs should do. Maybe they're just too lazy or apathetic to bother training the animal. Why they're not doing better with the dog is as important as the dog's problems.
If you already know the reasons and you think they're bullshit, that probably tells you what you need to know about the relationship, too.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:24 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
If you want to try to save the relationship, you can certainly raise the issue of whether the dog is being properly trained/cared for. Maybe your SO sees some of the same problems you do, but doesn't know how to deal with it or feels overwhelmed at trying. Maybe they genuinely believe that this sort of thing is what dogs should do. Maybe they're just too lazy or apathetic to bother training the animal. Why they're not doing better with the dog is as important as the dog's problems.
If you already know the reasons and you think they're bullshit, that probably tells you what you need to know about the relationship, too.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:24 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
as opposed to my holding SO's hand into responsibly handling SO's own pet
Just break up if this is putting you out. Really.
posted by trunk muffins at 8:31 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
Just break up if this is putting you out. Really.
posted by trunk muffins at 8:31 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
> SO anthropomorphizes the dog's behaviors
This is a human problem, not a dog problem. Get him a copy of something by Cesar Milan and let him know it's a dealbreaker. If he doesn't do it, you'll have your answer.
posted by ravioli at 9:03 AM on November 29, 2013
This is a human problem, not a dog problem. Get him a copy of something by Cesar Milan and let him know it's a dealbreaker. If he doesn't do it, you'll have your answer.
posted by ravioli at 9:03 AM on November 29, 2013
In my experience, significant incompatibility about pet philosophy which also really bothers one party is a warning of other significant personality conflicts.
If I have a real peoblem wirh how someone treats their pet, I often find myself having problems with them sooner or later. You might want to exit this relationship.
posted by windykites at 9:20 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
If I have a real peoblem wirh how someone treats their pet, I often find myself having problems with them sooner or later. You might want to exit this relationship.
posted by windykites at 9:20 AM on November 29, 2013 [7 favorites]
Ok- my answer was deleted. I'm going to try again!
"do I cut bait and find someone else whose lifestyle choices are more compatible with mine? Do I have a conversation with SO about this? If so, HOW?"
This is more than a lifestyle choice- its about boundaries... and if you and your boyfriend plan on having children, then you should find out how different you are in this respect... because if you both share different views on what it means to be responsible for a being, and what kind of values and boundaries you believe the being you are responsible for should have- then this could be a huge problem down the road.
There are people who think its fine for dogs and kids to just be themselves and run around and enjoy this wonderful world, and there are people who prefer these little entities to be a little more controlled. One reason for that is safety. A bundle of uncontrolled energy can cause a lot of damage to themselves and others.
I would frame this to your SO as a safety issue: a small sweet dog, if untrained about jumping up, could easily gash an elderly person's delicate skin and cause a wound... so its not all about the dog.
And picture if it were your kid with SO and the child was running around and grabbing things and climbing up pillars in the doctor's office- if your first instinct would be to say STOP, and that isn't the case for SO- then I would say goodbye to this headache.
posted by misspony at 9:34 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
"do I cut bait and find someone else whose lifestyle choices are more compatible with mine? Do I have a conversation with SO about this? If so, HOW?"
This is more than a lifestyle choice- its about boundaries... and if you and your boyfriend plan on having children, then you should find out how different you are in this respect... because if you both share different views on what it means to be responsible for a being, and what kind of values and boundaries you believe the being you are responsible for should have- then this could be a huge problem down the road.
There are people who think its fine for dogs and kids to just be themselves and run around and enjoy this wonderful world, and there are people who prefer these little entities to be a little more controlled. One reason for that is safety. A bundle of uncontrolled energy can cause a lot of damage to themselves and others.
I would frame this to your SO as a safety issue: a small sweet dog, if untrained about jumping up, could easily gash an elderly person's delicate skin and cause a wound... so its not all about the dog.
And picture if it were your kid with SO and the child was running around and grabbing things and climbing up pillars in the doctor's office- if your first instinct would be to say STOP, and that isn't the case for SO- then I would say goodbye to this headache.
posted by misspony at 9:34 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Dogs that nip and lunge will eventually bite another dog, person, or child. It's instinctual, and it is the best reason to get the dog proper training.
Being together with someone long term requires an ability to discuss Difficult Things.
The problem is that your SO is already ignorant enough (or embarrassed?) such that they make excuses for Dog's bad behavior.
You'll have to decide if being blunt or gentle is the way to bring this up, but some version of, "Dog needs training because right now he can't easily navigate people, places, and other dogs. I know you love Dog and want what's best for him. Can we enroll in a class?"
You're correct that this is a red flag on the part of your SO. I hope they get proactive and stop ignoring the issue!
All dogs require training, and it's not an embarrassment or source of shame. It's possible your SO has some weird ideas about what training means, it would be nice if you were prepared to gently talk them through this.
I think if your SO gets proactive it is a good sign. If your SO "shoots the messenger" so to speak, then it's OK if you break up.
posted by jbenben at 9:46 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Being together with someone long term requires an ability to discuss Difficult Things.
The problem is that your SO is already ignorant enough (or embarrassed?) such that they make excuses for Dog's bad behavior.
You'll have to decide if being blunt or gentle is the way to bring this up, but some version of, "Dog needs training because right now he can't easily navigate people, places, and other dogs. I know you love Dog and want what's best for him. Can we enroll in a class?"
You're correct that this is a red flag on the part of your SO. I hope they get proactive and stop ignoring the issue!
All dogs require training, and it's not an embarrassment or source of shame. It's possible your SO has some weird ideas about what training means, it would be nice if you were prepared to gently talk them through this.
I think if your SO gets proactive it is a good sign. If your SO "shoots the messenger" so to speak, then it's OK if you break up.
posted by jbenben at 9:46 AM on November 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
Before my fiancee and I were together, he had a long-term relationship with someone. Years into the relationship, when it became clear to her that he really meant it when he said he did not want to have any children with her (and I know this is not your case but bear with me), she adopted a very intelligent and high-energy dog.
She and that dog were veryvery close, and the Dog's behavior is much as you describe in your situation. The one difference from your story is that the Dog LOVED his GF and followed her around, slept with her, and would only respond to her. The Dog did not care for my fiancee.
So my fiancee spoke with his GF; I love you but I'm not comfortable at home any more. In short, he initiated many conversations all along the theme of this Dog needs some training. He offered to pay for the training; he offered to take the dog to training classes himself.
For whatever reason, his then-GF did not want this training to happen.
And so, the Dog never got trained.
And more so, they broke up. Of course, there were other reasons, but a big part of it was that he was living in a home where the Dog was allowed to misbehave and he ended up not feeling as though his feelings really didn't matter to the GF. And related to that, for him, was an overall sense that his GF had a childlike sense of the world; that she wasn't really interested in taking ownership and responsibility for her choices (because being a good dog owner does require some work) and that she would get exceptionally pissed off if others didn't accept her lackadaisical relationship with the world. Most importantly, for him, was the recognition that his GF had no interest in doing that occasional maintenance that ALL relationships require.
So what I would do is talk to this woman and explain that you enjoy her, and that you do not enjoy the behavior of this untrained dog. Ask if she would be willing to work with you and make this dog a happy, well-trained dog.
If she's willing to listen to you and understand your very reasonable concerns, then you've found someone who's willing to put in the work that all relationships need to function well.
If her response is for you to take her and the dog as they are or take a hike, then you have another answer.
posted by kinetic at 9:55 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
She and that dog were veryvery close, and the Dog's behavior is much as you describe in your situation. The one difference from your story is that the Dog LOVED his GF and followed her around, slept with her, and would only respond to her. The Dog did not care for my fiancee.
So my fiancee spoke with his GF; I love you but I'm not comfortable at home any more. In short, he initiated many conversations all along the theme of this Dog needs some training. He offered to pay for the training; he offered to take the dog to training classes himself.
For whatever reason, his then-GF did not want this training to happen.
And so, the Dog never got trained.
And more so, they broke up. Of course, there were other reasons, but a big part of it was that he was living in a home where the Dog was allowed to misbehave and he ended up not feeling as though his feelings really didn't matter to the GF. And related to that, for him, was an overall sense that his GF had a childlike sense of the world; that she wasn't really interested in taking ownership and responsibility for her choices (because being a good dog owner does require some work) and that she would get exceptionally pissed off if others didn't accept her lackadaisical relationship with the world. Most importantly, for him, was the recognition that his GF had no interest in doing that occasional maintenance that ALL relationships require.
So what I would do is talk to this woman and explain that you enjoy her, and that you do not enjoy the behavior of this untrained dog. Ask if she would be willing to work with you and make this dog a happy, well-trained dog.
If she's willing to listen to you and understand your very reasonable concerns, then you've found someone who's willing to put in the work that all relationships need to function well.
If her response is for you to take her and the dog as they are or take a hike, then you have another answer.
posted by kinetic at 9:55 AM on November 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
I just asked my husband if he was dating someone else. You don't have a thing for middle-aged librarians, do you?
This is our dog, with the exception of the snapping. We have done a few sessions of dog training with her, the result being that she behaves around us, but when there are new people about, she goes into HOLY FUCK HI NEW PEOPLE mode, which involves barking, jumping, more barking, licking, and once she's calmed down, maybe sleeping with her head in your lap. We think she's a lab/Rhodesian mix, so she's very, very food motivated.
What I'm saying is some dogs are more intractable than others. We've found workarounds - the EZ Walk harness that Sara C mentioned is a lifesaver. The dog goes outside when new people come to the door. We do the arms crossed/turning away thing when she jumps. We take her to doggie day care a few days a week so she satisfies some of her socialization needs. But we have not trained many of the doggy traits out of her.
She does need training and stimulation though, and if your boyfriend is not willing to set aside time for these things, then he's not necessarily a bad person, just not a very good pet owner. People who adopt animals and then don't put in the effort to make sure those animals get what they need to co-exist with the rest of the world, are part of the reason we have so many euthanized dogs at animal shelters (restraining former shelter volunteer rant here). If you voice your concerns, and he is not willing to work to mitigate them, that may be a warning sign. I might suggest spending more time at your place than his, but it sounds like the dog needs as much human contact as you can give him.
But I also understand your frustration. I don't have people over as much because my dogs makes the first 30 minutes or so a social nightmare ("Luna, down! Sorry, so sorry. Down! No! She just wants to play, so won't actually hurt . . .Down! Outside, now! I'm so, so sorry."). This experience has been a humbling learning process about what we need to control, what we need to mitigate, and what we need to accept.
We aren't not bad people, and our dog is not a bad dog, but we had to devote a large part of our life to making sure we're happy and she's happy. You can help in this process, but she is not your dog, so you are under no obligation to do so. If your boyfriend is willing to work with you on dog training, that would be a good bonding experience for all three of you. If he isn't, especially if he knows how much this bothers you, I would be concered about his willingness to adapt to inconvenient lifestyle changes (of which there are many, many, many to come), and his empathy, because he is not recognizing the needs of both you and his dog.
posted by bibliowench at 10:07 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
This is our dog, with the exception of the snapping. We have done a few sessions of dog training with her, the result being that she behaves around us, but when there are new people about, she goes into HOLY FUCK HI NEW PEOPLE mode, which involves barking, jumping, more barking, licking, and once she's calmed down, maybe sleeping with her head in your lap. We think she's a lab/Rhodesian mix, so she's very, very food motivated.
What I'm saying is some dogs are more intractable than others. We've found workarounds - the EZ Walk harness that Sara C mentioned is a lifesaver. The dog goes outside when new people come to the door. We do the arms crossed/turning away thing when she jumps. We take her to doggie day care a few days a week so she satisfies some of her socialization needs. But we have not trained many of the doggy traits out of her.
She does need training and stimulation though, and if your boyfriend is not willing to set aside time for these things, then he's not necessarily a bad person, just not a very good pet owner. People who adopt animals and then don't put in the effort to make sure those animals get what they need to co-exist with the rest of the world, are part of the reason we have so many euthanized dogs at animal shelters (restraining former shelter volunteer rant here). If you voice your concerns, and he is not willing to work to mitigate them, that may be a warning sign. I might suggest spending more time at your place than his, but it sounds like the dog needs as much human contact as you can give him.
But I also understand your frustration. I don't have people over as much because my dogs makes the first 30 minutes or so a social nightmare ("Luna, down! Sorry, so sorry. Down! No! She just wants to play, so won't actually hurt . . .Down! Outside, now! I'm so, so sorry."). This experience has been a humbling learning process about what we need to control, what we need to mitigate, and what we need to accept.
We aren't not bad people, and our dog is not a bad dog, but we had to devote a large part of our life to making sure we're happy and she's happy. You can help in this process, but she is not your dog, so you are under no obligation to do so. If your boyfriend is willing to work with you on dog training, that would be a good bonding experience for all three of you. If he isn't, especially if he knows how much this bothers you, I would be concered about his willingness to adapt to inconvenient lifestyle changes (of which there are many, many, many to come), and his empathy, because he is not recognizing the needs of both you and his dog.
posted by bibliowench at 10:07 AM on November 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
if my schedule permitted for taking a dog to obedience classes, taking the dog for walks, etc, I'd have my own dog. but I don't, so I've been cognizant enough not to get one. meanwhile, my SO isn't working full-time at the moment and presumably has time to address these issues, but hasn't.
Just a random pull quote that exhibited what I'm about to discuss, but fairly blatantly. However, your initial post and this update both absolutely Radiate contempt.
Like, to the point that not only do I agree with the people above that this isn't about dog, but that I also think this relationship is utterly boned and you shouldn't keep dating someone whose personality you dislike this much.
Because yea, maybe there is something they're doing with that time that precludes them using that "free time" to deal with this. Or they're overwhelmed by it, or this just doesn't bother than that much. Even if they say it does, it doesn't bother them enoug to do anything about it.
I was with you when you initially approached this as "how do I get SO to train their dog?", but that was really just a loss leader. As soon as it crossed in to the judgement of and reflection of their character territory it really started to feel like this wasn't someone who you were really super into, even if you say you are.
If you were that into them, you would be defending them and giving plausible(sounding to you) excuses or reasons why this wasn't getting dealt with. Not dishing out contempt filled pithy remarks about their deeper character.
My vaguely snarky response is, at the end, do they know you think they're so immature and irresponsible and you're so much better than them?
Because yea, don't date someone you feel that way about. The world could use less relationships with that dynamic.
posted by emptythought at 11:07 AM on November 29, 2013 [16 favorites]
Just a random pull quote that exhibited what I'm about to discuss, but fairly blatantly. However, your initial post and this update both absolutely Radiate contempt.
Like, to the point that not only do I agree with the people above that this isn't about dog, but that I also think this relationship is utterly boned and you shouldn't keep dating someone whose personality you dislike this much.
Because yea, maybe there is something they're doing with that time that precludes them using that "free time" to deal with this. Or they're overwhelmed by it, or this just doesn't bother than that much. Even if they say it does, it doesn't bother them enoug to do anything about it.
I was with you when you initially approached this as "how do I get SO to train their dog?", but that was really just a loss leader. As soon as it crossed in to the judgement of and reflection of their character territory it really started to feel like this wasn't someone who you were really super into, even if you say you are.
If you were that into them, you would be defending them and giving plausible(sounding to you) excuses or reasons why this wasn't getting dealt with. Not dishing out contempt filled pithy remarks about their deeper character.
My vaguely snarky response is, at the end, do they know you think they're so immature and irresponsible and you're so much better than them?
Because yea, don't date someone you feel that way about. The world could use less relationships with that dynamic.
posted by emptythought at 11:07 AM on November 29, 2013 [16 favorites]
PS - do not play tug-of-war with this dog.
posted by crw at 11:54 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by crw at 11:54 AM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
do I cut bait and find someone else whose lifestyle choices are more compatible with mine?
I would. It's a quality of life issue for you. You're going to have to assume that neither dog-owner nor dog will be making any substantial changes on your behalf (maaaybe the owner will come around, but how long will that take to implement? A long time, and with no guarantee of success.). Because of our cultural norms about dogs being part of the family (see: your partner's assigning human motives and values to the dog), you might as well be criticizing your partner's child-rearing approach. Expect angst and push-back and denial.
That dog isn't going anywhere -- unless the dog's uncorrected behavior escalates to biting and leads to it being put down; not as far-fetched a scenario as it may seem, in my experience with naive dog-adopters who get in waaay over their heads, and then exercise the Nuclear Option out of it. You may need to prepare for that particular heart-break if you choose to stay in it with your partner. It sucks.
posted by nacho fries at 1:04 PM on November 29, 2013
I would. It's a quality of life issue for you. You're going to have to assume that neither dog-owner nor dog will be making any substantial changes on your behalf (maaaybe the owner will come around, but how long will that take to implement? A long time, and with no guarantee of success.). Because of our cultural norms about dogs being part of the family (see: your partner's assigning human motives and values to the dog), you might as well be criticizing your partner's child-rearing approach. Expect angst and push-back and denial.
That dog isn't going anywhere -- unless the dog's uncorrected behavior escalates to biting and leads to it being put down; not as far-fetched a scenario as it may seem, in my experience with naive dog-adopters who get in waaay over their heads, and then exercise the Nuclear Option out of it. You may need to prepare for that particular heart-break if you choose to stay in it with your partner. It sucks.
posted by nacho fries at 1:04 PM on November 29, 2013
There are "dog people" and people who are not. Dog people put up with a lot of insane behavior from their canine friend because they are linked to the other side of the dog's behavior - his devotion, his absolute adoration of his "master," his totally nonjudgmental, forgiving nature, his way of making the person feel needed and important, and, of course, his fun stuff - cuddling, romping, chasing balls or frisbees, schlurping, etc. The dog is always there, always the same, rarely has emotional issues if given enough love, accepts whoever the person accepts as their second "best friend," never judges or condemns or demands that the person change their ways.
Non-dog-people don't have that bond and don't understand it at all. They use words like "anthropomorphize," for instance.
Dog people should be with dog people and non-dog-people with others like them. The dog is always, always going to be between you.
This dog needs to have the snapping/nipping taken out of his behavior at once, just because it's going to hurt so, so bad when he goes too far one day and someone innocent gets hurt and the dog is impounded. There are all sorts of dog training videos, books, and local trainers who can accomplish this and your boyfriend should get that taken care of immediately. As for the jumping and so-excited-he-can't-stand-it behavior, the licking and the part that I think is the real problem here - that being that the dog is getting the attention instead of you - those things aren't going to change right away, not if he keeps the dog, anyway (and he will).
You're just a non-dog person at this point in your life and you need a non-dog boyfriend. It's okay and will work out just fine for both of you if you let the two of these characters go and find someone more compatible with yourself.
posted by aryma at 2:45 PM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
Non-dog-people don't have that bond and don't understand it at all. They use words like "anthropomorphize," for instance.
Dog people should be with dog people and non-dog-people with others like them. The dog is always, always going to be between you.
This dog needs to have the snapping/nipping taken out of his behavior at once, just because it's going to hurt so, so bad when he goes too far one day and someone innocent gets hurt and the dog is impounded. There are all sorts of dog training videos, books, and local trainers who can accomplish this and your boyfriend should get that taken care of immediately. As for the jumping and so-excited-he-can't-stand-it behavior, the licking and the part that I think is the real problem here - that being that the dog is getting the attention instead of you - those things aren't going to change right away, not if he keeps the dog, anyway (and he will).
You're just a non-dog person at this point in your life and you need a non-dog boyfriend. It's okay and will work out just fine for both of you if you let the two of these characters go and find someone more compatible with yourself.
posted by aryma at 2:45 PM on November 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
Look, the dog is out of control and you don't want to be around it. I'm totally on your side, who would want to be jumped on, nipped and in your face all the time? I love dogs but badly behaved ones drive me nuts. Having said that, it's clear your SO (who I will just call she to make life easier) isn't prepared to address it and why should she? That takes work and right now, there's no impetus to fix it as long as you keep putting up with it.
So what I would do is make it about your comfort level, not the dog. You don't like being nipped, jumped on, whatever. So the next time you're over at the SO's place and the dog is climbing all over you, just calmly get up and announce that it's time for you to go home. When your SO asks why, tell them you understand that the dog is just like that, but it's no fun for you so you're going to go. Don't be angry, just remove yourself from the situation. Do this every time the dog acts up. This now means it isn't a problem between you and the dog, making you an asshole, it's a problem for your SO if they want to spend any time with you. They will either address it or they won't.
When they ask you to come over, say "Oh, has dog calmed down? Great!" When they reply that they haven't, say that it probably isn't a good idea then and arrange something else. Put the onus on them to fix the situation if they want your company rather than you complaining or making it your problem. Your SO will soon realise that their antisocial dog is driving people away and they can either fix it or not. You are in effect, training them.
If you attack their lack of training of the dog or the dog itself, you just become the person coming between them. What you want to do is frame it in such a way that the dog's behaviour is getting in the way of your relationship progressing instead of you coming between the dog and the owner. You don't even have to have the discussion, just don't put up with the dog acting out and your SO will put two and two together when you start making yourself scarce. This way, you're not telling her what to do, you're just telling her what your boundaries are, it's up to them what they do with the information.
posted by Jubey at 3:11 PM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
So what I would do is make it about your comfort level, not the dog. You don't like being nipped, jumped on, whatever. So the next time you're over at the SO's place and the dog is climbing all over you, just calmly get up and announce that it's time for you to go home. When your SO asks why, tell them you understand that the dog is just like that, but it's no fun for you so you're going to go. Don't be angry, just remove yourself from the situation. Do this every time the dog acts up. This now means it isn't a problem between you and the dog, making you an asshole, it's a problem for your SO if they want to spend any time with you. They will either address it or they won't.
When they ask you to come over, say "Oh, has dog calmed down? Great!" When they reply that they haven't, say that it probably isn't a good idea then and arrange something else. Put the onus on them to fix the situation if they want your company rather than you complaining or making it your problem. Your SO will soon realise that their antisocial dog is driving people away and they can either fix it or not. You are in effect, training them.
If you attack their lack of training of the dog or the dog itself, you just become the person coming between them. What you want to do is frame it in such a way that the dog's behaviour is getting in the way of your relationship progressing instead of you coming between the dog and the owner. You don't even have to have the discussion, just don't put up with the dog acting out and your SO will put two and two together when you start making yourself scarce. This way, you're not telling her what to do, you're just telling her what your boundaries are, it's up to them what they do with the information.
posted by Jubey at 3:11 PM on November 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, after your update - this relationship isn't the one for you, and dog ownership probably isn't, either. Even in the best of circumstances, it's incredibly rare for them to be perfect little statues that require no attention.
Since the dog pre-dates your relationship, you'd be out of line expecting them to ditch the dog in favor of you. As in, they came with the dog, and now you want to change them?
That's not going to work, whether it's a dog you're trying to change or anything else. A good relationship means finding a person you're compatible with as they are, not who you want them to be.
And seriously. Save yourself the stress of a maybe-someday-dog, and consider a someday-cat. They're more in line with your expectations, and much more findable than a dog-that-acts-like-a-cat.
posted by stormyteal at 5:49 PM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Since the dog pre-dates your relationship, you'd be out of line expecting them to ditch the dog in favor of you. As in, they came with the dog, and now you want to change them?
That's not going to work, whether it's a dog you're trying to change or anything else. A good relationship means finding a person you're compatible with as they are, not who you want them to be.
And seriously. Save yourself the stress of a maybe-someday-dog, and consider a someday-cat. They're more in line with your expectations, and much more findable than a dog-that-acts-like-a-cat.
posted by stormyteal at 5:49 PM on November 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Of course it could get better. You haven't even discussed training, as far as I can tell. It's not clear to me that your expectations for dog behavior are ever going to be met, though, because I get the sense you don't like dogs to have all this energy that dogs have.
But here's the bigger issue: you don't want it to get better. If you did, you would be telling him he needs to work on his dog's behavior because it's a problem. Instead, you are imputing his dog's behavior to his character failings, and when that happens it's most likely because you don't like your boyfriend all that much.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:53 AM on November 30, 2013
But here's the bigger issue: you don't want it to get better. If you did, you would be telling him he needs to work on his dog's behavior because it's a problem. Instead, you are imputing his dog's behavior to his character failings, and when that happens it's most likely because you don't like your boyfriend all that much.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:53 AM on November 30, 2013
This dog's behaviour sounds just like my parents' old dog, a border collie.
My parents didn't train her aside from housebreaking and to accept being handled (tail, ears, feet, etc.). She didn't start to mellow out until she was around 6 years old, though she had her bad behaviours until the end (sneakily forcing her way into your lap and then trying to french kiss you was her signature move, I learned to put her in a headlock pretty quick). The funny part was that on the few times I took her out for walks she actually learned pretty fast that I wanted her to walk a certain way. If we tried training her to do something she would pick it up fast. Very smart dog. But of course my parents didn't care to stick with any of it.
We just got a mini schnauzer puppy about 2 months ago. She's a nice dog, and people compliment us on how well behaved she is already. But aside from a few specific things like "sit" and going happily into her kennel and stuff, we haven't been focusing on training per se, not just yet. I think it's mostly a product of having picked a calmer puppy, and our general everyday demeanours with her. We watched the Dog Whisperer and it's helped us understand that the dog thinks someone should be in charge. We're the leaders in this house, so we have to act like it.
I would suggest checking out some episodes of the Dog Whisperer with your SO. Perhaps s/he will be more receptive of advice coming from a reputable source, and open the door to productive conversation. It's not as daunting as "go spend all this effort and money on training classes! it's the only way", just an attitude adjustment for the most part. *yes I know some people disagree with some of Caesar's methods but the general idea is still a good start.
But honestly the dog's going to remain high energy for quite a while, and some of those behaviours aren't going to change. If you're needing a 180 degree change in this dog, you're not going to get it. Evaluate your own expectations.
posted by lizbunny at 7:09 AM on November 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
My parents didn't train her aside from housebreaking and to accept being handled (tail, ears, feet, etc.). She didn't start to mellow out until she was around 6 years old, though she had her bad behaviours until the end (sneakily forcing her way into your lap and then trying to french kiss you was her signature move, I learned to put her in a headlock pretty quick). The funny part was that on the few times I took her out for walks she actually learned pretty fast that I wanted her to walk a certain way. If we tried training her to do something she would pick it up fast. Very smart dog. But of course my parents didn't care to stick with any of it.
We just got a mini schnauzer puppy about 2 months ago. She's a nice dog, and people compliment us on how well behaved she is already. But aside from a few specific things like "sit" and going happily into her kennel and stuff, we haven't been focusing on training per se, not just yet. I think it's mostly a product of having picked a calmer puppy, and our general everyday demeanours with her. We watched the Dog Whisperer and it's helped us understand that the dog thinks someone should be in charge. We're the leaders in this house, so we have to act like it.
I would suggest checking out some episodes of the Dog Whisperer with your SO. Perhaps s/he will be more receptive of advice coming from a reputable source, and open the door to productive conversation. It's not as daunting as "go spend all this effort and money on training classes! it's the only way", just an attitude adjustment for the most part. *yes I know some people disagree with some of Caesar's methods but the general idea is still a good start.
But honestly the dog's going to remain high energy for quite a while, and some of those behaviours aren't going to change. If you're needing a 180 degree change in this dog, you're not going to get it. Evaluate your own expectations.
posted by lizbunny at 7:09 AM on November 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
Having just adopted a rescue dog two weeks ago, I completely understand how a dog's behavioral issues can get between two people. The past two weeks have definitely been stressful at times for me and my husband -- and we went into this 100% together.
If you actually want this relationship to work, the first order of business is talking to your SO about your problems with the dog if you haven't already. You need to identify the exact behaviors that bother you, and work with your SO to make a list of the biggest behavioral dealbreakers. If it were me, the lunging/snapping would be the first order of business. If your SO ignores your request and does nothing at all towards changing the dog's behavior, that speaks volumes about their respect for you and/or their ability to take responsibility.
Keep in mind that an adult dog doesn't unlearn months or years of behavior overnight. The key is patience. And although we'd all like the perfect dog, some behaviors are nearly impossible to change -- you can't make a high energy dog turn into a couch potato, for example. Rather, a dog like that you have to tire out mentally and physically every day. Sounds daunting, but it's actually pretty fun, especially if it's something you and your SO can do together. You could take him to obedience classes, buy him some challenging toys (Nina Ottossen puzzles are great for smart dogs!), or go for a run together. You could also try clicker training -- we've had so much fun teaching our dog practical cues (sit, down, stay) and silly tricks (roll over, dance on two feet, etc.). The clicker sessions grow the bond between owner and dog and also prime the dog to look to his owner for instruction. And my dog is always ready for a nap after 15 minutes of focused concentration and treats!
If your SO knows what situations trigger the undesirable behavior, he may also be able to address some behaviors just through management. If he lunges/snaps while playing tug of war with a toy, don't play tug of war. (Maybe one day you can reintroduce tug of war after the dog has mastered leave it/drop it). If he jumps on guests, teach him to go to a crate when you are expecting visitors, then give him a treat in his crate and release him when he's calmed down.
As for the leash, carry treats and reward generously when the dog watches you and walks with a loose leash; when he pulls, stop dead in your tracks and wait until he returns to you (make sure you exercise him first and don't try this with a long leash). This will be extremely tedious at first, but he'll get the hang of it eventually. "Come" and "watch me" are also handy cues that your SO help with leash walking. In the meantime, your SO could try walking him with a gentle leader -- the leash hooks in front allowing the walker to gently correct the dog when he pulls away.
Finally, I know Cesar Milan has been mentioned a few times in this thread. The Dog Whisperer is regarded among the vast majority of vets, behaviorialists and trainers as BS -- I'd recommend anything by Patricia McConnell, Pat Miller, Ian Dunbar, or Karen Pryor instead.
If this all sounds like way too much effort for you and more importantly for your SO, then maybe you should cut out now. There's nothing bad about not wanting to deal with a challenging dog, especially a dog that isn't yours. But please tell him that the dog's behavior drove you away. Some people are in denial about their dog's behavior, and a wake up call couldn't hurt.
posted by snarfles at 4:39 PM on November 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you actually want this relationship to work, the first order of business is talking to your SO about your problems with the dog if you haven't already. You need to identify the exact behaviors that bother you, and work with your SO to make a list of the biggest behavioral dealbreakers. If it were me, the lunging/snapping would be the first order of business. If your SO ignores your request and does nothing at all towards changing the dog's behavior, that speaks volumes about their respect for you and/or their ability to take responsibility.
Keep in mind that an adult dog doesn't unlearn months or years of behavior overnight. The key is patience. And although we'd all like the perfect dog, some behaviors are nearly impossible to change -- you can't make a high energy dog turn into a couch potato, for example. Rather, a dog like that you have to tire out mentally and physically every day. Sounds daunting, but it's actually pretty fun, especially if it's something you and your SO can do together. You could take him to obedience classes, buy him some challenging toys (Nina Ottossen puzzles are great for smart dogs!), or go for a run together. You could also try clicker training -- we've had so much fun teaching our dog practical cues (sit, down, stay) and silly tricks (roll over, dance on two feet, etc.). The clicker sessions grow the bond between owner and dog and also prime the dog to look to his owner for instruction. And my dog is always ready for a nap after 15 minutes of focused concentration and treats!
If your SO knows what situations trigger the undesirable behavior, he may also be able to address some behaviors just through management. If he lunges/snaps while playing tug of war with a toy, don't play tug of war. (Maybe one day you can reintroduce tug of war after the dog has mastered leave it/drop it). If he jumps on guests, teach him to go to a crate when you are expecting visitors, then give him a treat in his crate and release him when he's calmed down.
As for the leash, carry treats and reward generously when the dog watches you and walks with a loose leash; when he pulls, stop dead in your tracks and wait until he returns to you (make sure you exercise him first and don't try this with a long leash). This will be extremely tedious at first, but he'll get the hang of it eventually. "Come" and "watch me" are also handy cues that your SO help with leash walking. In the meantime, your SO could try walking him with a gentle leader -- the leash hooks in front allowing the walker to gently correct the dog when he pulls away.
Finally, I know Cesar Milan has been mentioned a few times in this thread. The Dog Whisperer is regarded among the vast majority of vets, behaviorialists and trainers as BS -- I'd recommend anything by Patricia McConnell, Pat Miller, Ian Dunbar, or Karen Pryor instead.
If this all sounds like way too much effort for you and more importantly for your SO, then maybe you should cut out now. There's nothing bad about not wanting to deal with a challenging dog, especially a dog that isn't yours. But please tell him that the dog's behavior drove you away. Some people are in denial about their dog's behavior, and a wake up call couldn't hurt.
posted by snarfles at 4:39 PM on November 30, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you haven't brought this up, I don't think that S.O. having this dog who behaves this way is really a "lifestyle choice" that is wholly incompatible with yours. For some people having an untrained dog is sort of the default that they fall into rather than a conscious choice that they have firm feelings about.
You don't need to say "train your dog or I'll break up with you." Just let them know how very much the behavior bothers you and ask if they can do something about it. If they shoot the suggestions down after you've expressed how important it is to you, then it might make sense to part ways.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:40 PM on November 30, 2013
You don't need to say "train your dog or I'll break up with you." Just let them know how very much the behavior bothers you and ask if they can do something about it. If they shoot the suggestions down after you've expressed how important it is to you, then it might make sense to part ways.
posted by needs more cowbell at 9:40 PM on November 30, 2013
I don't know if you want to have kids one day, but if you do, if any of your irritation seems out of proportion, then maybe it's because it's coming from a place of 'This person would be a bad parent', and that's what's making you feel like you may as well cut and run.
Although, being an irresponsible pet owner is enough of a reason too.
Sometimes it's just little signs of particular types of irresponsibility that tip you off into 'I don't trust this person enough to have a future with them'. If that's it for you, that's it for you.
I essentially broke up with a boyfriend after going through customs with him one time. I had friends and family asking why I did it, because wasn't he smart and basically nice, etc etc. Which I mostly played off with 'not compatible' etc. Except for those I did explain the at least 3 different ways he had been an idiot on this ONE occasion, going through customs, and then they all kind of understood that actually, I couldn't trust him to not be an idiot like that in future.
With the pet, it's both a current-term, SO has the time to fix the problem, and isn't. Is actively pretending there isn't a problem. And failed to anticipate this would be a problem.
Which are all big warning signs for their ability to problem-solve, basically.
posted by Elysum at 8:44 PM on December 7, 2013
Although, being an irresponsible pet owner is enough of a reason too.
Sometimes it's just little signs of particular types of irresponsibility that tip you off into 'I don't trust this person enough to have a future with them'. If that's it for you, that's it for you.
I essentially broke up with a boyfriend after going through customs with him one time. I had friends and family asking why I did it, because wasn't he smart and basically nice, etc etc. Which I mostly played off with 'not compatible' etc. Except for those I did explain the at least 3 different ways he had been an idiot on this ONE occasion, going through customs, and then they all kind of understood that actually, I couldn't trust him to not be an idiot like that in future.
With the pet, it's both a current-term, SO has the time to fix the problem, and isn't. Is actively pretending there isn't a problem. And failed to anticipate this would be a problem.
Which are all big warning signs for their ability to problem-solve, basically.
posted by Elysum at 8:44 PM on December 7, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:05 PM on November 28, 2013 [11 favorites]