Can I date my friend's unrequited love?

October 10, 2005 5:50 AM

Love-triangle Filter. I am close friends with a guy called Phil. He is in unrequitedly in love with Jennifer. At a party on Friday, Jennifer and I talked for ages and she asked me for my number, which I gave her. I have talked to Phil and he has said he doesn't mind Jennifer and I being friends, "but will never speak to me again if anything happens between [us]." Jennifer and I are going for a drink on Friday. Is Phil being unreasonable, or should I not let anything happen between Jennifer and I?

A bit of history. Phil and Jennifer had a week-long fling about a year ago, which she then broke off. They have been friends since. Early this year, Jennifer and I met for the first time and ended up kissing. Phil saw and was totally incensed and didn't speak to me for a few weeks.

Phil has fairly low self-esteem, and I know that if anything happens between Jennifer and I, it will hurt him, regardless of my moral position.

posted by pollystark to human relations (97 comments total)

If you know it will hurt him, you have your answer. You have to choose between your feelings for Jennifer and your friendship with Phil. You can't have both. Whether or not he is being unreasonable is irrelevant.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:57 AM on October 10, 2005

Even if Phil is being unreasonable, you have to answer for yourself if it's worth losing his friendship over. If it is, then you have to consider that 'honor' tag you used (and what it means to you), and whether you owe anything to Phil and his low self-esteem (he's not going to kill himself or anything, is he?). It might or might not help to ask yourself what Phil would most likely do if the situation were reversed.
posted by kimota at 6:02 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil is being unreasonable, but Phil also has dibs. Primitive, yes, but he called her first, so you're honorbound to leave her alone. Unless you look at Jennifer and see the woman you want to have grandchildren with, pass. Is a friendship really worth a fling?
posted by headspace at 6:03 AM on October 10, 2005

You and Jennifer have a right to privacy. Is Phil the doorman at the only club in town? If Phil is uncomfortable with your pursuit of happiness, do him the courtesy of not rubbing it in his face. If he asks say "I don't think its fair for you to ask me that."
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:10 AM on October 10, 2005

Im just worried about Jennifer, if Phil is acting this childish, what will happen if they get back together?
posted by wheelieman at 6:11 AM on October 10, 2005

According to pollystark's website, pollystark is a "queer, intersex, genderfuck girl" (I don't mean to be insensitive by using the incorrect term or falsely representing you, and I hope you won't think I'm prying, I was just looking because the name "polly" made me feel I was missing something in the question).

If Jennifer no longer swings in Phil's direction, then this becomes a different question with (possibly) a different answer.

I'd hate to think that "dibs" really apply in relationships when it comes to unrequited crushes. If you think you could have something serious with this woman, don't toss it away for the sake of a friend with a crush. I'd try and sit down with him and talk it out.
posted by bcwinters at 6:12 AM on October 10, 2005

Clarifications:
* Phil is not suicidal.
* Phil is very dependent upon me for our friendship, but the reverse is not true. I would be sad to lose his friendship, but not distraught. More problematic is that we have a lot of mutual friends and so a falling out would be mutually difficult. So, the issue is about not being a bitch (honour), about not hurting him, and about not making things difficult for us both socially, rather than the loss of a friendship.#
* I don't know Jennifer that well, so I've no idea whether it'll be nothing at all, a little fling, a relationship, or a till-death-do-us part. However, the only way to determine that is well past the point of no return.
posted by pollystark at 6:13 AM on October 10, 2005

I'd not be a bitch about it--it's clear Phil cares about her, even if it's not reciprocal. There are more enough other people in the world to get involved with who aren't the object of a friend's affection. Is it because of Phil's attraction to her that you're interested? Or is she really that hot/fabulous/etc?
posted by amberglow at 6:18 AM on October 10, 2005

Dibs? What the fuck? If Jennifer's interested in you, and you're interested in Jennifer, go for it. Tell Phil not to be a goddamned baby just because he had a week long fling with her a year ago. You might lose Phil's friendship, but don't let him emotionally blackmail you. And tell him to man up if he can't deal. Damn.
posted by klangklangston at 6:28 AM on October 10, 2005

Clarifications 2: the wonders of Jennifer
* Basically, we share a lot of interests and it feels like one of those 'recognition' moments where you're both like 'why in the world haven't we seen more of each other?' And yes she is very hot. There are other fish in the sea, of course, but Jennifer is a great girl.
* Sexuality. She is on the straight side of bisexual. As I understand it, she's recently started exploring her desire for women.
posted by pollystark at 6:31 AM on October 10, 2005

Dibs my ass, she's an adult human, not the front passenger seat. Phil needs to grow the fuck up.
posted by Scoo at 6:43 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil is never going to be with Jennifer again, no matter what you do, and his failure to realize that is his problem and not yours. That said, if you go out with Jennifer it is the end of your friendship with Phil, forever. If that is cool with you, give him a phone call and tell him that you are going for it and hope he understands.
posted by LarryC at 6:44 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil is being unreasonable, and the idea that someone can have 'dibs' on another human being is not only primitive, it's frankly disgusting. I advise you to treat that suggestion with the contempt it deserves. If Jennifer is not interested in Phil he needs to be a man and accept it. He has no sort of claim on her whatsoever. If you and Jennifer are attracted to each other you have every right to act on it. Yes, that means you may lose Phil's friendship but if he's being such an ass about this it probably won't seem like such a great loss when the dust has settled.

People are not property. People are independent beings with minds, rights and choices of their own. Unrequited love hurts, but that's life and Phil needs to grow up and deal.
posted by Decani at 6:47 AM on October 10, 2005

You can't have Phil's friendship and Jennifer's body at the same time. Phil is being unreasonable, but friends sometimes are unreasonable. Is Jennifer worth losing Phil over?
posted by cardboard at 6:48 AM on October 10, 2005

She is on the straight side of bisexual. As I understand it, she's recently started exploring her desire for women.

So basically there's zero chance you and Jennifer are going to wind up together. You're talking about ruining your friendship with Phil not for a lifelong commitment (which would be a no-brainer), not even for a few years of being a happy twosome (which would probably still be worth it), but for a few nights (maybe) of experimental sex. I'm thinking you don't value your friendship with Phil that highly.
posted by languagehat at 6:51 AM on October 10, 2005

Oh, and to all the "dibs" people: this isn't about evaluating the reasonableness of Phil's attitude (how many of us are reasonable when it comes to love?), it's about how pollystark should deal with the situation as it is.
posted by languagehat at 6:52 AM on October 10, 2005

Sure Phil is being somewhat unreasonable. By that I mean if something starts with you and Jennifer and Phil flips out, your friend will likely understand your position, unless they're all like Phil in which case, they won't.

Whether or not they think it's a cool thing to do depends a lot on the culture of your friends and whether or not you're expected to toss over friends in favor of partner-type relationships, real or imagined. Many of the people I went to high school and college with would do this. As people get older, they do it less and less.

It seems to me that if you want to have options with Jennifer but still want to do the right thing with Phil, you talk to him about this ahead of time, let him know you're going for drinks with her, say you'd like to keep his friendship and tell him you'll either keep him posted [if he wants that] or not [if he wants that]. It might cause some agonizing "I bet they're kissing RIGHT NOW" feelings but he'll probably feel less deceived in the long run, which can add insult to injury if you and Jennifer decide you really have something going.

It's hard for guys to hear that a gal they're head over heels for just doesn't love them back, but it sounds like that's what Phil needs to hear. If things progress and Jennifer and you become an item, that may be something she needs to make sure she gets across to him in no uncertain terms. Breaking a fling off doesn't send quite the same message as some variant of "I do not love you back" which, ultimately, seems to be what Phil's biggest problem with the whole scene is.
posted by jessamyn at 6:52 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil is being unreasonable but that doesn't provide justification. Make your decision aware that you will probably lose a friend (for a while at least). You will hurt him, he will probably hate you and you will have done nothing at all for his insecurities other than make them worse.

If you are happy with the consequences that you know you will cause then go ahead. It's your life after all.
posted by twistedonion at 6:52 AM on October 10, 2005

Dibs? What the fuck?

Seconded.
posted by odinsdream at 6:57 AM on October 10, 2005

Dibs? What the fuck?

Thirded.

This isn't four days after their fling; he's had a whole year, and you have no obligation to be constrained by his lost cause.

From what you've described, I don't see why anyone wouldn't understand your going ahead with things... except Phil, and I think, as cunninglinguist said, it does come down to a sheerly practical matter of whether you value Phil's friendship more than Jennifer's potential. It's unfortunate that he put you in this situation.
posted by musicinmybrain at 7:19 AM on October 10, 2005

You're talking about ruining your friendship with Phil [...] for a few nights (maybe) of experimental sex. I'm thinking you don't value your friendship with Phil that highly.

Seconded.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:24 AM on October 10, 2005

walk away dude, from it all.
too much baggage
posted by phredhead at 7:32 AM on October 10, 2005

What makes you think that Jennifer wants to have a relationship with you? You say she's hot, but that doesn't mean she wants anything beyond an "exploratory" quickie. Then she'll dump you and Phil will hate you.
posted by Carol Anne at 7:32 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil is being unreasonable, but Phil also has dibs. Primitive, yes, but he called her first, so you're honorbound to leave her alone.

Radio, we've got a whiskey tango foxtrot...

I knew a girl once who started a job at a movie theater. As soon as she got there one of the guys called "dibs" on her and told everybody else to leave her alone. When she found out she fucked his roommate. The point is that calling "dibs" on girls doesn't work.

Whether you and Jennifer have a fling, or actually get involved, is completely independent of Phil's feelings. Phil has no reason to get upset about a woman being with another guy a year after the fact, even if that guy is a friend of his. The bottom line is that Phil has some serious emotional growing-up to do, and this is probably going to be a good first step.
posted by baphomet at 7:39 AM on October 10, 2005

Amongst friends who care about each other, dibs doesn't have an experitation date.
posted by oddman at 7:40 AM on October 10, 2005

it will get messy and all 3 will lose, you will feel bad. don't. (i learned the hard way.)
posted by libertaduno at 7:42 AM on October 10, 2005

Clarification 3: potential.
* Jennifer and I really don't know each other very well. She may or may not a) want to be my friend b) want to sleep with me c) want to experiment with me d) be attracted to me and want to see what develops e) want to have a relationship with me. My guess is that it's either (a) or (d). The latter opinion is pretty much identical to mine feelings. I don't honestly know which of (a) or (d) she is feeling, but she did ask me for my phone number pretty much out of the blue, after saying she had just broken up with her boyfriend and wanted to explore her sexuality.
* Phil and I. We've been friends for about a year and a half. We spend a lot of time together, but it is not a particularly healthy friendship. We have a laugh and we're kind of good as 'default hang-out buddies', but I basically spend most of my time trying to cheer him up and boost his confidence. We've just started a band together.
posted by pollystark at 7:44 AM on October 10, 2005

Clarification 4: I'm a girl :D
posted by pollystark at 7:46 AM on October 10, 2005

Have a few dates with Jennifer and see if it actually goes anywhere. I see no need to tell Phil about it unless it starts getting serious.
posted by gfrobe at 7:54 AM on October 10, 2005

Oh great, you can ruin the band, too!

I knew a girl once who started a job at a movie theater. As soon as she got there one of the guys called "dibs" on her and told everybody else to leave her alone.

That's not an equivalent situation. What was meant by the casual use of 'dibs' earlier was that Phil & Jennifer had some sort of past together and had been somewhat intimate. So it may be quite natural that Phil feels awkward. Good friends tend not to mess with each others' exes unless no one feels weird about it. That's where the honor comes in.

Oh, and to all the "dibs" people: this isn't about evaluating the reasonableness of Phil's attitude (how many of us are reasonable when it comes to love?),

Languagehat is talking a lot of sense. 'The heart has its reasons that reason knows not of.'

I went through an analogous situation, and my friendship with the friend who took my seconds was utterly destroyed. No great loss, in retrospect, but I still can't believe someone who called herself 'friend' felt it was fine to weigh my feelings with so little regard. No, my feelings weren't reasonable, but the truth is feelings about relationships do not fall into the 'reason' department. My feelings were those of someone who was still in the midst of dealing with issues brought around by the breakup of the relationship. It's impossible to grow emotionally any faster than nature allows - maybe Phil will outgrow the torch-carrying and give you his blessing for this later on. If you aren't inclined to honor that, if you put your curiousity before your friend's comfort, your friendship with Phil is built of pretty thin stuff. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to stop seeing them both.
posted by Miko at 7:58 AM on October 10, 2005

it will get messy and all 3 will lose, you will feel bad. don't. (i learned the hard way.)

Seconded. I've been in a very similar love triangle before and ended up loosing both of those people in the end. Along the same lines, in reference to StickyCarpet's suggestion of "privacy," or trying to date her or whatever without Phil's knowledge, there's a 99.8% he will find out. It might not be right away. Hell, it might not be while you two date if it happens. But it will happen eventually and then all hell will break loose and it sucks.
Also, talk to Jennifer about the situation if anything does start between you two. If it sounds like she doesn't give two shits about your and Phil's friendship, you have your answer right there. It doesn't mean stop dating or whatnot if she cares, but if she doesn't, chances are she won't care too much about your feelings, either.
posted by jmd82 at 8:00 AM on October 10, 2005

You just started a band together with Phil? This just gets messier. Do you care about the band? If you do, drop Jennifer. If you don't care about the band being fucked up, then go fo it - Phil's a baby.
posted by tristeza at 8:01 AM on October 10, 2005

Every so often, these questions reveal the character of their authors. The fact that you're even asking this question, the fact that you'd comment about his "low self-esteem"...you're a kid. You don't yet understand relationships, and you clearly don't value friendship. You're not contemplating your decision; you've made it. You want support. Thus the answer is clear: Go ahead. Make your mistakes. They're part of growing up -- and hopefully, you'll learn from them, and eventually realize this decision had nothing to do with Phil or Jennifer.
posted by cribcage at 8:05 AM on October 10, 2005 [1 favorite]

Bingo.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 8:10 AM on October 10, 2005

You can't call "dibs" on something that you've already had a chance at. I can understand (but not condone) Phil taking his attitude if he had this major crush on her and he had never done anything about it. But he had his chance, and it didn't work out. At this point, staking claim to Jennifer is really just sour grapes on his part.

Your relationship with Phil doesn't sound that great, even apart from the fact that he tries to lay guilt trips on you about possible relationships with a week-long ex. Ask yourself this: Is there any friend who, if he asked you not to get involved with an ex, you would respond with "Okay, I will not get involved with her"? If you'd consider doing this to any of your friends, then all the details about how you and Phil get along with each other are moot.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:15 AM on October 10, 2005

I think friendship is worth more than intimacy, unless you're really doing it because you think things would work out in the long term. Doesn't matter how hot they are. But not everyone feels this way. You don't seem to.

On preview: ditto, Cribcage.
posted by Happydaz at 8:16 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil needs to grow up.
posted by bshort at 8:16 AM on October 10, 2005

I basically spend most of my time trying to cheer him up and boost his confidence. We've just started a band together.

So this is less of a love triangle, more of a concept album, right? :)

In seriousness, Phil is being unreasonable, but you're being unfeeling. It doesn't matter how unfair his request that you leave Jennifer alone is, he clearly feels strongly enough to say so, and you're going to hurt him badly if you ignore him.

But you're also not going to do him any good if you just let it all slide and accept his pathetic unrequited puppydog bullshit, because he seriously needs to get over that. I've been there myself (for much longer than a year) and it's a glum, useless place. Like Wales.

So sit him down, and let him know that you're not going to get involved with Jennifer, and that your friendship with her will absolutely never go any further than that. Then tell him that he's being stupid and selfish, and that if he ever again tries to dictate your lovelife on the basis of his own melancholic fantasy world, he is OUT OF THE BAND.

That way, you're not satisfied, he's not satisfied, and Jennifer sure as hell isn't satisfied - and yet somehow, you're all still better off than you would be otherwise. Woo yay.

Then write a song about it.
posted by flashboy at 8:20 AM on October 10, 2005

cribcage, most sensible advice yet.
posted by twistedonion at 8:26 AM on October 10, 2005

It sounds like you've already made up your mind.
posted by dial-tone at 8:26 AM on October 10, 2005

Cribcage has it. Completely.
posted by Miko at 8:26 AM on October 10, 2005

Something else to consider is women play men like this all the time. Be careful you are not being made a fool.

That said, it really depends if Phil is a big dumbass or if he's pretty cool and you like him. In other words, if Phil is a big fattie hanger on, and he's being unreasonable in slobbering after the girl, fuck him.

However, if he's just like you, a decent guy, then either 1. you can never talk to Phil again, and he will speak badly about you for the rest of his days or 2. realize there are a lot of girls, and Phil is probably more important.

May default answer would be that your guy friends are more valuable, and women come and go.

Good luck.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 8:26 AM on October 10, 2005

Clarification 5:

Cribcage: you're so right. I do know that I'm emotionally childish. And I had the precise thoughts that you voiced as I was posting the question. Except for one thing. I posted this question for two reasons. 1. to get a range of opinions but 2. because I wanted to be talked out of going for it. If this was my best friend, it'd be no choice at all - I wouldn't go for it. I love him as much as I love my own family. But Phil and I - whilst we are close - have a fairly uneven friendship. So, I am more worried about hurting him as an unconfident person with low self-esteem than I am about smashing our friendship.

And Cribcage, you're also right that in terms of my own morality/honour, this isn't about Phil and Jennifer. It's about the fact that I place romantic relationships above all else.
posted by pollystark at 8:30 AM on October 10, 2005

Clarification 4: I'm a girl :D
posted by pollystark at 7:46 AM PST on October 10 [!]

Allow me to change my answer. Fuck Phil, he's a moron. Call Jennifer asap.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 8:32 AM on October 10, 2005

If this was my best friend, it'd be no choice at all - I wouldn't go for it.

Then your problem is your insincere approach to, and codependence in, this friendship, not anything to do with Jennifer. If you're so worried about his emotional health, then a friend would do something to help him get a grip (encourage therapy, broaden his social circle, get out of his way so he can feel more successful, have sincere interactions), not make his problems worse by introducing a betrayal of trust into what he thinks is a close friendship.

Want to be talked out of it? Don't do it. All settled now?
posted by Miko at 8:38 AM on October 10, 2005 [1 favorite]

i'm not sure i'd get serious about jennifer if i were you ... she's got to know about phil's feelings ... and yet she give you her number and drops a hint about experimenting with sex ... and of course, phil seems to be somewhat aware of the situation

i could be wrong ... perhaps she's just not noticing how others might react to all this ... but what if she knows what she's doing? ... if you see any sign she's flaunting this so phil can react, you'd better stay away

it sounds to me that she could be manipulating both of you
posted by pyramid termite at 8:39 AM on October 10, 2005

Oh, and to all the "dibs" people: this isn't about evaluating the reasonableness of Phil's attitude

Oh? I guess I must be misunderstanding this bit of pollystark's question, then.

Is Phil being unreasonable...?

Just because love lends itself to unreasonable behavior doesn't mean it should be excused. I repeat: you do NOT have "dibs" on another person. Especially when that person has let it be known they do not want you. If the person you like says no, that is it. They've said no. If you refuse to take that message like an adult, you're entering stalker territory and you need to get a grip. Jennifer has said she does not want anything more than friendship with Phil. When someone we fancy tells us that it hurts, but if that is the way they feel we have no right whatsoever to act as if they didn't say it and to disrespect their refusal of our interest. To imagine that your own feelings for someone else trump their lack of feelings for you is not merely unreasonable, it's bordering on the cracked.
posted by Decani at 8:42 AM on October 10, 2005

The fact that you are a girl changes things a little bit, IMO. Do you think it's possible Phil might have feelings for you that you just don't know about? I wonder.

That said, he is being a baby. If it's not you it will be someone else.

Another option would be to talk to this Jennifer girl about the situation. My feeling is that she would be incensed and being treated like a piece of property which might be dibbed upon. How would you feel if you were in love with someone and they couldn't be with you because they were friends with someone who was in love with you, or something?

Of course, really in all of these questions there is no clear logical answer, usually people only want to be convinced of a particular thing.

2. because I wanted to be talked out of going for it. If this was my best friend, it'd be no choice at all - I wouldn't go for it. I love him as much as I love my own family. But Phil and I - whilst we are close - have a fairly uneven friendship. So, I am more worried about hurting him as an unconfident person with low self-esteem than I am about smashing our friendship.

Well, you're not going to get that from me. I would definitely go for it if I was in your position. Phil will get over it eventually, do whatever you want to with the girl.

But, you don't need to tell him every detail. I don't know if you feel comfortable keeping things from him, but you don't need to lie about anything, just downplay it, don't talk about it, etc. Tell him that he needs to stop thinking about her and worrying about her, and use that as an excuse not to talk about anything unless things get serious between the two of you.
posted by delmoi at 8:46 AM on October 10, 2005

It's not about dibs - whoever introduced that word has confused this conversation irretrievably -- , it's about respecting the feelings of your friends, however much you may disagree with them.

It's true that no one can control what other people do, and we're all free to do as we please. But those of us who choose to cultivate meaningful friendships just do not indulge in this type of behavior, despite how we might want to.

I'm sure what we're seeing is a profoundly different moral code conflicting with this idea -- a code that is based around 'me first, you later if I feel like it.' I don't choose to live that way, since I've seen all the needless and stupid damage it causes. If you're able not to care about that, it's possible to go ahead and do what you want.

Also, spend a few minutes picturing yourself in a similar situation. Sometimes this helps clarify thinking. Are you willing to accept being in the 'losing' role with other friends in the future? Especially since you put 'romantic love' above all else -- if you were head over heels in romantic unrequited love, would you be able to let a close friend hook up with your object of obsession without saying anything?
posted by Miko at 8:58 AM on October 10, 2005

You know exactly what you want, you know that you think Phil's being unreasonable, and you know that if you go for Jennifer, you'll be the asshole in the situation. But she's hot and funny and you like her, so here you are, asking for validation in your intent to hurt your friend.

You already know what to do. AskMe can't make you want to do it.
posted by heatherann at 9:00 AM on October 10, 2005

It's about the fact that I place romantic relationships above all else.

Forgive me - I could be wrong here - but I have to say I wasn't immediately overwhelmed by the heady air of shimmering romance in your description of you and Jennifer's relationship. Friendship + Fucking != Romantic Relationship.

I'd worry that you're letting the fact that it's all got a bit melodramatic lead you into thinking that you're part of a grander and more meaningful scenario here than you actually are. You are young people doing as young people do. That is to say, you are fragile poetic souls helplessly trapped inside giant buckets of hormones, blindly stumbling around and bumping into each others genitals. You want somebody to talk you out of it? Fine. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Seriously, you'll hurt Phil, you'll not get that much out of it yourself, and you'll have made it that little bit easier for yourself to commit far worse betrayals in the future. A little mutual self-denial on all your parts might be a good experience.




Or, you know, the three of you could have a massive, absurdly drunken threesome. That would probably be a good experience also.
posted by flashboy at 9:03 AM on October 10, 2005 [1 favorite]

I think Phil doesn't have the right to blackmail you emotionally like that. Sure, it hurts like hell when you like/love someone and that's not returned, but Phil has a choice: he can accept the reality and move on to the next girl, or he can pine away and threaten any friend who takes a liking to her. He's chosen the latter, and it's a decision bright green with jealousy, the worst emotion ever.

Look at it this way: fast-forward a couple of months and you and Jennifer really, really dig each other and want to take it to the next level. Isn't it hurtful for you and Jennifer to be restrained by someone who is peripheral in terms of your relationship? What if you demurred, and Jennifer asked you point blank why not...what would you say? "Gee, well see Phil doesn't want us to date..." Meanwhile Phil might very well have gotten over his pining by that time.

Phil should grow up a bit (shouldn't we all...). Frankly, he doesn't sound like much of a friend if he wants to actively stop two people (potentially) falling in love.
posted by zardoz at 9:06 AM on October 10, 2005

t's not about dibs - whoever introduced that word has confused this conversation irretrievably

I completely agree. So many people seem to be responding to that comment as much to the question itself. "Dibs" really has nothing to do with it.

Sure, it hurts like hell when you like/love someone and that's not returned, but Phil has a choice: he can accept the reality and move on to the next girl, or he can pine away and threaten any friend who takes a liking to her. He's chosen the latter

He threatened her? I agree that Phil has made an unfortunate decision in his continued pining for Jennifer, but a good friend getting involved with her just seems like too much. If you really think it's worth it then go for it, but my advice would be to look elsewhere.
posted by Stauf at 9:12 AM on October 10, 2005

Jesus, people, simmer down. Phil has a history with her, and this history is obviously still a real and active present in his current life. If Polly moves in on Jennifer, from Phil's perspective, Polly is moving in on someone with whom he has a current and active relationship with (even though that relationship is one sided.) Phil has taken the step of informing Polly that the feelings he had from the previous fling are still current and active and to him, completely supercede any relationship he has with Polly under certain conditions...

In other- short- words, he called fucking dibs and polly has to decide what to do about that. My advice was to skip the relationship with Jennifer unless it has the potential to be a lifelong one, which y'all also managed to skip while falling all over yourselves to be the most shocked about me using an object word to refer to a guy who treats the disinterested girl and polly as objects.
posted by headspace at 9:16 AM on October 10, 2005

The threesome's a great idea. It solves all your problems. You get to have some fun with a girl you fancy. Phil gets another shot at greatness. Jen gets to explore her sexuality. If Phil has latent feelings for you, that's sussed out, too. And if you're feeling any latent hostility at Phil, you can introduce him to S&M.

Seriously though, cribcage said it best.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:22 AM on October 10, 2005

He threatened her?

Well, yeah. Threatened to not be a friend anymore to Polly.

I agree that Phil has made an unfortunate decision in his continued pining for Jennifer, but a good friend getting involved with her just seems like too much. If you really think it's worth it then go for it, but my advice would be to look elsewhere.

But that's the whole point: why should Polly have to look elsewhere because of Phil's problem? He's making it other people's problem, and that's wrong. I guess it'd be wrong for Polly to say "well, to hell with Phil, I'm dating Jennifer", but sometimes--oftentimes--love just happens.
posted by zardoz at 9:25 AM on October 10, 2005

People in love and soldiers in wartime are not bound by the rules of fair play.

Why are there so many comments. Fuck Phil he had his chance, she doesn't want him (fling + just friends for a year = nothing will happen). It's not like he's all prepping to go on a date with her and you purposely sabatoge it or talk bad about him on the date. She's perfectly able to make her own choices. Go out with her and if Phil is too fragile that's his problem, not yours.
posted by geoff. at 9:38 AM on October 10, 2005

Well, yeah. Threatened to not be a friend anymore to Polly.

Where? It's pretty disingenuous to say he "threatened" anyone, when he'd merely be reacting (unreasonably or not) to a friend moving in on this particular person that he's really into.

why should Polly have to look elsewhere because of Phil's problem?

Well, that's my point. Don't friends often share problems? That's part of what friendship is isn't it? I didn't say she has to look elsewhere, just that it might be the best thing to do in this situation. I mean if Polly doesn't consider it really a friendship and she thinks it's worth it, as I said, she should go for it; she doesn't have to do anything. But, again, if Phil really is a friend I think that complicates things (plus the whole band thing... yikes).
posted by Stauf at 9:48 AM on October 10, 2005

Jessamyn has it right. You can almost certainly defuse a lot of this by talking ahead of time with Phil about what you're feeling. Do it at a coffeeshop or something to help avoid a screaming match, and be sure to tell him you're concerned about him as you also tell him you're feeling he's being unfair/jealous/whatever.

So basically there's zero chance you and Jennifer are going to wind up together.

Good lord. Quite an assumption there, languagehat.
posted by mediareport at 9:53 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil is not being unreasonable. But it sucks to be him. If you like Jen and hit it off with her, go for it.

Just be conscious of the fact that the odds of you being murdered by a close friend will increase ten-thousandfold.

I am a Phil. It hurts when the Jennifer in my life dates someone else. It would hurt worse if she dated someone I know. And I've dated other women since her, too. And I live in a completely different city. Doesn't matter -- some women are off limits to my friends.

So, the idea that "it's Phil's problem, not yours" is not exactly true.
posted by solid-one-love at 9:58 AM on October 10, 2005

It's not about dibs - whoever introduced that word has confused this conversation irretrievably -- , it's about respecting the feelings of your friends, however much you may disagree with them.

But Phil isn't respecting her feelings when he plays the "if I can't have her, no one can" card. For a friendship to work, these things have to go both ways.

I'm sure what we're seeing is a profoundly different moral code conflicting with this idea -- a code that is based around 'me first, you later if I feel like it.'

Or conversely, a moral code based around giving people what they're reasonably entitled to, which doesn't entail hurting one's own life for no good benefit to anyone. (Mind you, if pollystark could somehow deliver Jennifer to Phil by passing up on the chance herself - that might be a reasonable test of a good friendship. But that's not the case.)

... if you were head over heels in romantic unrequited love, would you be able to let a close friend hook up with your object of obsession without saying anything?

I don't know about pollystark, but I've been in that situation more than once and never felt I was entitled to complain or demand that the friend pass on the girl. I wished them both the best and went on with my life.
posted by tdismukes at 9:58 AM on October 10, 2005

After having read a bunch of responses, and taking into account the fact that I spent so, SO much of my teens and 20s being a Phil, I've gotta say go for it. Phil does need to grow up; more importantly, he's gotta get over Jennifer, grieve for his 'loss,' and move on to a real person, and not some dream or memory. At some point he'll regret the time he's wasted on her and how he's acting right now. Maybe you can help him with finding someone else once the fallout settles down; being there for him once he gets his act together will show you to be a true friend. (That's assuming he backs off from his emotional blackmail fairly quickly; I'm not sure if he's mature enough to or not--if not, then you really haven't lost much.) I also think you've already done the honorable thing by letting him know what your intentions are. (It would've been far crappier for him to find out the hard way that you and Jennifer were dating behind his back.)
posted by kimota at 10:01 AM on October 10, 2005

I'm sure what we're seeing is a profoundly different moral code conflicting with this idea -- a code that is based around 'me first, you later if I feel like it.'

If this is the brush that you want to paint the situation with, then Phil is just as guilty of this behavior as polly. "I like Jennifer, and if you like her too, well too bad, you aren't allowed to within the construct of our friendship. My feelings are important, and yours are not."
posted by 23skidoo at 10:12 AM on October 10, 2005

I'd go for Jennifer. I'm sure you are well aware, but also be prepared, very prepared, for the very likely scenario of experimentation and subsequent big dramatic confusion and "issues." Jennifer sees you a safe way to be curious. Part of that is that she won't perish if she feels too weird and wants to write you off afterwards. (This is why we don't explore our curiosities with our best friends.)
posted by desuetude at 10:41 AM on October 10, 2005

I've always found it to be a good policy not to date anyone who has ever dated one of my friends. There are plenty of women in the world you could be happy with-- why go with one that is going to cause pain for your friend? It's not that hard to meet someone else...

So the only real question here is how do you feel about Phil? Is he really your friend?
posted by InfidelZombie at 10:45 AM on October 10, 2005

Even if Jennifer left town today and you never laid a hand on her, I think you're better off without a friend like Phil.
posted by wryly at 10:49 AM on October 10, 2005

If a friend of mine goes out with someone and has feelings for them, that someone is forever off limits.

Not just because of respect and honor. But because it's more trouble than it's worth. Find someone you can enjoy being with, without drama and complications.

All that said, you sound young and ready to make mistakes, so what cribcage said.
posted by fleacircus at 10:51 AM on October 10, 2005

Be careful about straight girls who want to "experiment" with you. I'm not getting all Dan Savage anti-bisexual here, because I am bisexual, but damn, she's obviously not the ideal girlfriend here, and she may very well just be playing you.
posted by matildaben at 11:00 AM on October 10, 2005

Lot's of good advice in this thread already. I will only add that I was in a very similar situation about 10 years ago. I chose to ask the girl out and she is now my wife. Every situation has different outcomes but I think you'll know what the right decision is for your circumstance.
posted by quadog at 11:06 AM on October 10, 2005

After rereading some of the comments I'll add that there is lots of bad advice here as well. This whole concept of "having dibs" on a girl a full year after a one week fling is degrading on multiple levels. For all of those empathizing with Phil's "plight" I suggest you reject the selfish trappings of infatuation and understand that a woman has a right to make decisions independent of your desires. We're trying to evolve here people.
posted by quadog at 11:16 AM on October 10, 2005

Phil does need to grow up

I think we all agree on this. Unfortunately, it's a moot point. A red herring. Completely irrelevant.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:58 AM on October 10, 2005

Decani's right on. Ignore folks like solid-one-love; they're mental. This isn't saying that you shouldn't be compassionate, or that if it were a good friend that you shouldn't occasionally honor their bullshit at least temporarily, but damn. No decent friend asks you to refrain from dating a girl a YEAR after they've failed a FLING.
And a decent friend especially wouldn't begrudge a little experimental bisexual how-ya-do.
With all this melodrama, he needs to do what the protagonists do in romantic novels: swallow his feelings and let the man of better station (in this case a woman of currently trendy sexuality) take the girl, knowing that he she can better provide for Jessica's needs. He can then heroically and poetically suffer the pain of unrequited love and perhaps overdose on laudanum.
And advice for you (not Phil)? Tell Phil he had a goddamned year and that you'll still be friends with him after the girl realizes she's not gay anymore.
posted by klangklangston at 12:06 PM on October 10, 2005

For a friendship to work, these things have to go both ways.

You missed something important. I'm suggesting that it doesn't have to go both ways. I'm suggesting that the operative idea is that you put your friend's interests before your own, especially in matters of the heart. It's an idea called sacrifice. Hopelessly old-fashioned, I know.

We're trying to evolve here people.

Yes, this is what most amuses me about attempts to modernize or rationalize matters of the heart. No one's ever really succeeded at imposing a system on infatuation or love. Read some Shakespeare; see if you discover a lot of evolution in relationships during the last 400 years.

Anyway -- the kind of karma you build up from doing this stuff is not karma that I want. Many of you live differently. Live and let live. She asked, I'm offering a point of view.
posted by Miko at 12:07 PM on October 10, 2005

I'm suggesting that it doesn't have to go both ways. I'm suggesting that the operative idea is that you put your friend's interests before your own, especially in matters of the heart. It's an idea called sacrifice. Hopelessly old-fashioned, I know.

Why can't Phil be the one to put his friend's interests before his own?
posted by 23skidoo at 12:28 PM on October 10, 2005

Well, if Phil asked the question I'm sure that's what he would hear. It would be great if he was more mature than he is.

If someone is really your friend, you take them as they are. So if Polly wants Phil to remain her friend she needs to respect his feelings. If she doesn't care about him she should do what she wants and let the chips fall where they may...
posted by InfidelZombie at 12:48 PM on October 10, 2005

An askme with a twist! I just grasped that you're female, Polly but FWIW my perspective on the situation still stands.
posted by quadog at 12:48 PM on October 10, 2005

Ha, quadog I felt the same way. And I totally agree with the camp that says that the relationship most likely won't last as straight people and gay people by definition are not compatible in the long-term. Still Phil's a weeny.
posted by geoff. at 12:58 PM on October 10, 2005

never screw over a friend for a girl. there always looks like a good reason but there isnt.
posted by BigBrownBear at 1:05 PM on October 10, 2005

Sounds like you are being used at Phil’s expense.
Because Jennifer may be playing you both against each other over her affection - you don’t see the signs? All this drama and she made sure she could contact you by asking you for your number. Only way you and Phil will have some happiness here is to ditch the dragon. Never let a woman separate a friendship.

You could test her since she invited you for a drink...forget to bring your wallet. If she likes you, nothing will stop her from being around you.

I say all the above because the drama is for "drinks" and I’m guessing alcohol was involved in every situation you mentioned here…

Why can’t all three of you discuss this? - Being the main issue here as you are all friends.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:22 PM on October 10, 2005

How do you know that Phil doesn't have romantic feelings for you?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:13 PM on October 10, 2005

i think thomcat's right--she knows Phil likes her, and she's hot for you now? Avoid Jennifer and move on.
posted by amberglow at 3:21 PM on October 10, 2005

Dude, if a dufus is hot for you, that's no reason not to date the dufus's hot friend. What kinda math are you doing?
posted by klangklangston at 4:21 PM on October 10, 2005

You don't want to hurt Phil, but you string him along as a pseudo-friend because it's easier to do so than to stop talking with him. You want to go after Jennifer, whether it's romantic or just lust talking.

Simple fact is, no matter what you do, you and Phil are gonna have some problems. You could support his childish lack of confidence and stay away from Jennifer, possibly leaving latent hostility at Phil. Real nice friendship to preserve there.

You could go after Jennifer, and watch Phil blow up at you.

Or, you could sit Phil down and tell him why it's silly to get upset at you dating a girl he went after a year ago. It could blow up in your face, sure. If it does, was there really all that much worth holding onto in the first place?

You're bound to have more headaches than the mess is worth either way, but you have little to gain or even hold onto in any situation. Ask Phil why it bothers him so much that you and Jennifer are interested in each other. If he can't get over a fling a year ago, he's hopeless. Let him stew it over, it's a friendship that does you no good.

Talk to him, and let him know that you mean him no harm, but he's got no right to complain. He's probably just heartbroken and worried about losing your friendship too. It's an awkward situation for him, but he needs to deal with it one way or the other.
posted by Saydur at 4:47 PM on October 10, 2005

I've genuinely horrified at how many of you are advocating that Polly go out and actively hurt someone she calls, however condescending she is about it, a friend.


Cribcage nailed it.

On the other hand, I'm thinking Phil might be better off if this ends in a big falling out.
posted by CunningLinguist at 5:03 PM on October 10, 2005

Let me be the 500th person to say cribcage nailed it.

Good lord. Quite an assumption there, languagehat.

I've known a lot of flighty young people, I've known a lot of gay people and heard what they have to say about straight "experimenters" (see matildaben's comment above), I've been young and flighty myself, and yeah, I think my assumption is pretty secure. Wanna put money on it? Fifty bucks says Polly and Jennifer aren't together in ten years.
posted by languagehat at 5:42 PM on October 10, 2005

Oh, and let me also say that this is a great thread. Eat your heart out, Dear Abby!
posted by languagehat at 5:43 PM on October 10, 2005

Phil is your friend? Then, why isn't he happy for you?

DTMFA!
posted by Wet Spot at 5:46 PM on October 10, 2005

Have Phil read this thread.
posted by cortex at 6:07 PM on October 10, 2005

And then rob him of 5 bucks, there ya go!! We got a new subject boys!!
posted by wheelieman at 6:36 PM on October 10, 2005

uh member not subject,,,, i think
posted by wheelieman at 6:36 PM on October 10, 2005

Fifty bucks says Polly and Jennifer aren't together in ten years.

Sorry, I don't bet on human flesh. :)

But it was still a surprising assumption coming from you - an assumption that wasn't presented as one. I'm aware of the dangers of straight experimenters, believe me, but was taken aback by your apparent ability to sense from miles away the difference between 1) a real spark that could possibly develop into a solid relationship that would be a "no-brainer" when compared to Phil's needs and 2) an utterly unserious fling that has "basically...zero chance" of lasting for whatever length of time you think would balance out Polly's commitment to Phil as a friend.

Whew. That was quite a superpower you claimed there.

Anyway, at least we're no longer at "zero chance." It's a bit of a side issue, languagehat, so I'll drop it. But you might want to take the certainty down a notch when answering sex and relationship questions.
posted by mediareport at 6:46 PM on October 10, 2005

I didn't read languagehat's comment as either surprising or absolutist. I read it as conversational.

You see two people in what is, by anecdotal evidence, a very unstable situation. Your buddy says, hey, you think they'll establish a stable long-term relationship?

(a) "Well, it has all the earmarks of a primarily sexual situation of the sort that seems to rarely to last very long, but I feel compelled to state that while I doubt that they'll establish a stable long-term relationship, I recognize that such is, in fact, a possibility."

(b) "Zero chance. Fifty bucks says it doesn't last."

One is a more reasonable and effectively-hedged statement. One is a lot more conversational. Both say pretty much the same thing to me.
posted by cortex at 7:38 PM on October 10, 2005

Good lord, this thread is worthy of Data Lounge (but without the cat claws).
posted by Ber at 8:27 PM on October 10, 2005

Summary and plan:

Thanks everyone SO SO SO much for all your advice. I've read and re-read it multiple times and taken it on board. What seems to be clear is that there is a massive range of opinion on this, from some who think I shouldn't even consider Jennifer to some who think "yeah Phil's being rubbish but you've got to respect his feelings" to "fuck it, go full steam ahead".

Also, more generally, it's quite clear that I need to take a damn good look at my friendship with Phil, and also at my own moral code.

What am I gonna do?
1) Talk to Phil is a general way about our friendship
2) Go for the drink with Jennifer and make sure nothing happens
3) In the long run, probably err on the side of caution and not do anything with Jennifer
4) Decide whether I can be friends with her and still make sure nothing happens between us. If I can't, I'll stop seeing her.
5) Have a proper, solid, damn good think about how I feel about friendship honour and moral codes...

Thanks so much again.

Polly xxx
posted by pollystark at 2:32 AM on October 11, 2005

Wow polly. I take back my earlier harsh opinion of you.

I found as I got older that having a sense of honor - especially when dealing with friends and other people who care about you - becomes surprisingly important. If you are at all decent, it's the times you've screwed people over that end up haunting you, even more than the romantic possibilities that got away.
I don't believe in karma, but I try to live as if I did.
posted by CunningLinguist at 4:55 AM on October 11, 2005

Polly, you're OK in my book.

And mediareport, cortex has it exactly right. I wasn't offering a serious statistical claim, just saying "You know damn well this isn't going to be a long-term relationship, so let's be realistic."

I do have superpowers, but I'd never talk about them here.

Oops.
posted by languagehat at 11:27 AM on October 11, 2005

I do have superpowers, but I'd never talk about them here.

Well apparently they extend to making me rethink my deep-rooted dislike of Dylan, so I'd call them superpowers indeed. :)

I can't add much beyond what's already been said here (other than to say how much I wish there'd been an AskMe when I was 21), except that I wouldn't place a great deal of expectation on the possibility of a relationship with a woman who has just left her boyfriend and is hinting at wanting to use the first handy person-- you-- to explore her same-sex desires.

Also that the Phils of this world indeed have to learn to live with their disappointments, but their suffering is still real.
posted by jokeefe at 3:34 PM on October 11, 2005