Help with Hydronic Heating
November 14, 2013 11:55 AM Subscribe
Our new-to-us-but-very-old home needs a new boiler (and water heater). What are our best options?
The missus and I are the proud owners of an old house (1909) in SE Portland. It has a steam radiators that were converted to use hot water. The natural-gas-fired boiler is about 26 years old. It's having trouble firing up in the morning. The pilot assembly needs repair, but they don't make those parts anymore. The technician said he could order a retrofitting kit, but he didn't recommend putting much money into such an old unit. It's currently working, but it's literally held together with electrical tape, so he recommended getting bids to replace it "ASAP". (He pronounced it like that, a-sap.) Suddenly, things get expensive.
(Oh, and our water heater is well past its expected lifetime, so replacing that is on the horizon, too.)
From reading online and in books about such things, I see the following options:
Should I just bite the bullet and go with Option No. 1? What brands should I be looking at?
Any recommendations for good Portland-based contractors who might want to work with me on the less-traditional options?
The missus and I are the proud owners of an old house (1909) in SE Portland. It has a steam radiators that were converted to use hot water. The natural-gas-fired boiler is about 26 years old. It's having trouble firing up in the morning. The pilot assembly needs repair, but they don't make those parts anymore. The technician said he could order a retrofitting kit, but he didn't recommend putting much money into such an old unit. It's currently working, but it's literally held together with electrical tape, so he recommended getting bids to replace it "ASAP". (He pronounced it like that, a-sap.) Suddenly, things get expensive.
(Oh, and our water heater is well past its expected lifetime, so replacing that is on the horizon, too.)
From reading online and in books about such things, I see the following options:
- Call around and find a contractor to install a new high-efficiency boiler and an indirect water heater. (This is the default option, but it also sounds like the most expensive.)
- Buy the stuff myself, separately, and find a contractor who will install it. (This will potentially save me a ton of money up front, but it also introduces the chance for me to buy the wrong thing or hire the wrong person to install it.)
- Wild-card option: Replace the boiler with a water heater, since the radiators don't use steam anymore anyway. (Cost and energy savings abound, but this seems to be a relatively new and controversial procedure. I don't know if it's the right option for our house, or, more importantly, how to find a contractor willing to do such a thing.)
Should I just bite the bullet and go with Option No. 1? What brands should I be looking at?
Any recommendations for good Portland-based contractors who might want to work with me on the less-traditional options?
For how many BTUs per hour was the old natural gas boiler rated?
What water temperature did it achieve when it was operating?
You'll have to match both of these things with your new boiler if you don't want to change the rest of the system. Temperature and pumping rate are interrelated, and if you're not ready to grapple with it, you have to stay within the bounds set by your previous system.
Likewise, if you are willing to stay in those bounds, a do-it-yourself approach might make sense, if you are handy enough and willing to take utter responsibility for the outcome. I would say that if you're not willing to install the heater yourself, you shouldn't select and buy it yourself.
As to replacing your heater boiler with a water heater, I assume that you mean that you want to merge your domestic hot water system and your heating loop? If this is what you mean, I think it is a bad idea. Mineral deposits in a high efficiency heater like the one I point to below murder their efficiency, and they work best in a closed-loop system, and you'd have to flush the current system really well just to get the crud out of it.
I've got one of these polaris heaters running a radiant heat system, 100K BTU/hour, very reliable for nearly a decade now.
posted by the Real Dan at 12:16 PM on November 14, 2013
What water temperature did it achieve when it was operating?
You'll have to match both of these things with your new boiler if you don't want to change the rest of the system. Temperature and pumping rate are interrelated, and if you're not ready to grapple with it, you have to stay within the bounds set by your previous system.
Likewise, if you are willing to stay in those bounds, a do-it-yourself approach might make sense, if you are handy enough and willing to take utter responsibility for the outcome. I would say that if you're not willing to install the heater yourself, you shouldn't select and buy it yourself.
As to replacing your heater boiler with a water heater, I assume that you mean that you want to merge your domestic hot water system and your heating loop? If this is what you mean, I think it is a bad idea. Mineral deposits in a high efficiency heater like the one I point to below murder their efficiency, and they work best in a closed-loop system, and you'd have to flush the current system really well just to get the crud out of it.
I've got one of these polaris heaters running a radiant heat system, 100K BTU/hour, very reliable for nearly a decade now.
posted by the Real Dan at 12:16 PM on November 14, 2013
Usually what they do when replacing a boiler with a heater is to have two loops: one for domestic water and another for heating; the heat is transferred from one loop to the other with a heat exchanger.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 12:34 PM on November 14, 2013
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 12:34 PM on November 14, 2013
In addition to looking at local and federal rebates/tax credits, I would also see if there are discounted whole-house energy audits available. Some audits may include sizing information - often old systems are oversized - but will definitely include other weatherizing information that may allow you to reduce the size you need. If you are lucky they may also include their own rebates if you complete the recommended work.
I would not try to buy the equipment yourself. Contractors get significant discounts off list prices and you will not be able to come close to matching their prices. You don't have to leave selection entirely up to your contractor, but you won't gain anything but work by buying it yourself.
I've talked to a mechanical engineer I work with about the water-heater-as-boiler option and he did think it made sense for a small enough system. We were discussing a friend's 700sf house, but you have warmer winters than we do.
posted by sepviva at 4:25 PM on November 14, 2013
I would not try to buy the equipment yourself. Contractors get significant discounts off list prices and you will not be able to come close to matching their prices. You don't have to leave selection entirely up to your contractor, but you won't gain anything but work by buying it yourself.
I've talked to a mechanical engineer I work with about the water-heater-as-boiler option and he did think it made sense for a small enough system. We were discussing a friend's 700sf house, but you have warmer winters than we do.
posted by sepviva at 4:25 PM on November 14, 2013
Best answer: I would not try to buy the equipment yourself. Contractors get significant discounts off list prices and you will not be able to come close to matching their prices.
Basically just came to say this. You won't even be able to buy the stuff at their markup.
I briefly worked for a heating and cooling company, and you'd be shocked at the discounts you get when you buy 10 boilers instead of just one. It's sometimes as much as a 40% discount.
Just remember to get as efficient as a system as possible. You're locking yourself into a setup for a good 10-15 years. It's worth it to do an energy audit, reinsulate and get a smaller, more efficient system.
Get several quotes, from several outfits. Also note that doing unlicensed gas work on your own house has the possibility of voiding your homeowners insurance, and you need a license to perform jobs of that ilk in Oregon. Not a good DIY project.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:43 PM on November 14, 2013
Basically just came to say this. You won't even be able to buy the stuff at their markup.
I briefly worked for a heating and cooling company, and you'd be shocked at the discounts you get when you buy 10 boilers instead of just one. It's sometimes as much as a 40% discount.
Just remember to get as efficient as a system as possible. You're locking yourself into a setup for a good 10-15 years. It's worth it to do an energy audit, reinsulate and get a smaller, more efficient system.
Get several quotes, from several outfits. Also note that doing unlicensed gas work on your own house has the possibility of voiding your homeowners insurance, and you need a license to perform jobs of that ilk in Oregon. Not a good DIY project.
posted by furnace.heart at 6:43 PM on November 14, 2013
I thought I was going to need a new furnace because Company 1 said the necessary repair would be costly, parts likely to break, boiler old and inefficient, etc. I got quotes from several companies. Company 3 has a reputation for being pricy, but the guy suggested repairing the boiler, yeah, the bolts can break, but mine looked to be in okay shape, no guarantees, but the boiler was in pretty good shape. Got the repair done for @ 500, and the furnace is working just fine 2 years later. So, get several quotes. It takes time, but it's really worthwhile. You may very well need a new furnace, but prices vary.
Efficiency and quality in your furnace are worth paying for. I had the energy audit, also worthwhile.
posted by theora55 at 7:31 PM on November 14, 2013
Efficiency and quality in your furnace are worth paying for. I had the energy audit, also worthwhile.
posted by theora55 at 7:31 PM on November 14, 2013
Response by poster: Consensus seems to be for an energy audit + new boiler purchased and installed by a licensed contractor. We'll start moving that direction.
For the record, I was never planning to actually install anything myself, just purchase it on my own and hire someone legit (licensed/bonded/etc.) to install it. (FurnaceCompare.com says you can save a lot of money that way, but it sounds like there are a lot of potential pitfalls, assuming you can find someone to do the work for you.)
Thanks everyone!
posted by sportbucket at 1:43 PM on November 15, 2013
For the record, I was never planning to actually install anything myself, just purchase it on my own and hire someone legit (licensed/bonded/etc.) to install it. (FurnaceCompare.com says you can save a lot of money that way, but it sounds like there are a lot of potential pitfalls, assuming you can find someone to do the work for you.)
Thanks everyone!
posted by sportbucket at 1:43 PM on November 15, 2013
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For Example, here is a site that tells you about rebates available in Portland, OR.
Your gas company NW Natural, has a list of preferred contractors. Probably not the cheapest dudes in town, but approved by your utility. (they will pull the correct permits and will be up-to-the-minute on all the applicable rebates, etc.)
Here's a page where they talk about kicking in over $1,000, so check that out.
I totally recommend going this route. You'll get master plumber level work, appropriate permits and a crap-ton of rebates. They'll also be able to discuss all of your options.
Good luck!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:04 PM on November 14, 2013