Can you figure out why my car is slow to start in the mornings?
October 28, 2013 9:54 AM Subscribe
My car has been slow to start in the mornings for a year or two now. I've been ignoring it since mechanics couldn't seem to figure it out and it always eventually started. But this morning it was so slow to start that the battery died and I had to have it jump started, so I'm hoping someone here might be able to shed some light on it.
My car is a 1997 Chrysler Sebring JXi convertible. It has about 155K miles on it. Apologies in advance for my lack of vocabulary about cars.
Symptoms:
* It is slow to start in the mornings (or after a long period, say 12-16 hours). After it's been driven for a few minutes, if it is turned it off it starts back up no problem.
* Sometimes but not always (somewhere between 50 and 75% of the time), on the first attempt to start the car, a little cloud of white smoke or steam comes from under the hood. The smoke originates from the driver's side of the car, near the box where air filter sits (although I could not tell if the smoke was coming from underneath this box or from inside the box).
* This morning as I started it, it tried to turn over. After a few seconds, it had a little "kick" then back to the original noise. It did this a couple of time, with the kicks coming more and more rapidly, until the battery died and I had to have it jump started. Once the other battery was attached, the car started pretty much immediately, but it felt like it would have done so on its own had the battery had a little more charge to it.
* The difficulty of starting the car seems to be related to the weather. Higher humidity seems to make it more difficult, and cold weather seems to make it especially difficult to start. This morning was the first morning this year where my windows were covered in frost.
* There appears to be some kind of slow oil leak as well. About 2 months after the car is serviced with it's oil change, the dipstick will read just below the Low end, and my parking space has developed a black oily patch underneath my engine, towards the front passenger side. This may be totally unrelated.
The battery was replaced either 2 or 3 years ago (I don't have the receipt in front of me right now).
I have taken it to different mechanics on a couple of different occasions. However, because it works fine for several hours after it starts, they are having difficulty diagnosing it. One thought it might be the distributor; another thought it might be a valve in the fuel pump which would require replacing the whole pump. Both of these possible repairs are fairly expensive (>$400) so I don't want to just try it and find out that it didn't make a difference.
Any ideas what the problem might be?
My car is a 1997 Chrysler Sebring JXi convertible. It has about 155K miles on it. Apologies in advance for my lack of vocabulary about cars.
Symptoms:
* It is slow to start in the mornings (or after a long period, say 12-16 hours). After it's been driven for a few minutes, if it is turned it off it starts back up no problem.
* Sometimes but not always (somewhere between 50 and 75% of the time), on the first attempt to start the car, a little cloud of white smoke or steam comes from under the hood. The smoke originates from the driver's side of the car, near the box where air filter sits (although I could not tell if the smoke was coming from underneath this box or from inside the box).
* This morning as I started it, it tried to turn over. After a few seconds, it had a little "kick" then back to the original noise. It did this a couple of time, with the kicks coming more and more rapidly, until the battery died and I had to have it jump started. Once the other battery was attached, the car started pretty much immediately, but it felt like it would have done so on its own had the battery had a little more charge to it.
* The difficulty of starting the car seems to be related to the weather. Higher humidity seems to make it more difficult, and cold weather seems to make it especially difficult to start. This morning was the first morning this year where my windows were covered in frost.
* There appears to be some kind of slow oil leak as well. About 2 months after the car is serviced with it's oil change, the dipstick will read just below the Low end, and my parking space has developed a black oily patch underneath my engine, towards the front passenger side. This may be totally unrelated.
The battery was replaced either 2 or 3 years ago (I don't have the receipt in front of me right now).
I have taken it to different mechanics on a couple of different occasions. However, because it works fine for several hours after it starts, they are having difficulty diagnosing it. One thought it might be the distributor; another thought it might be a valve in the fuel pump which would require replacing the whole pump. Both of these possible repairs are fairly expensive (>$400) so I don't want to just try it and find out that it didn't make a difference.
Any ideas what the problem might be?
Best answer: This sounds a lot like an aging battery (or possibly a loose/corroded/frayed wire in the starter circuit?) to me. Have you ruled that out?
Can you try starting it with the hood open & a friend watching to see where the puff of smoke comes from?
posted by hattifattener at 10:12 AM on October 28, 2013
Can you try starting it with the hood open & a friend watching to see where the puff of smoke comes from?
posted by hattifattener at 10:12 AM on October 28, 2013
My guess would be an ignition fault of some variety -- maybe bad coils or plug wires, which is consistent with worsening in damp or humid weather. Try starting it (cold start, if possible) in damp weather, in a dark place with no lights on, with the hood up. Have a friend turn the key while you look around under the hood for sparks jumping between the engine block and either the plug wires or coils.
posted by jon1270 at 10:30 AM on October 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jon1270 at 10:30 AM on October 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Addendum: my uncle, a lifelong mechanic, once suggested misting the plug wires with water from a Windex-type bottle as a substitute for damp weather, to aid diagnosis in a similar case.
posted by jon1270 at 10:32 AM on October 28, 2013
posted by jon1270 at 10:32 AM on October 28, 2013
I killed the same battery to zero, 3 winters in a row, many a time each winter; the battery came back to life every time it got put on a charger. no problem starting in dry/summer, only in winter. this same battery is still good, even. and it turned out this was the issue:
obviously none of us are your mechanic, but I am also going to have to say, begin with:
- bad battery ground
and/or
- bad engine ground
both of which are nominally cheap (and easy, if vaguely tedious, fixes) - make sure the battery ground is clean and tight, and same for the engine ground strap (do cars even have those anymore?) - but first take them off (disconnecting positive too), sand or wirebrush the heck out of the connections and bolts (this is the tedious part), and put some decent grease all around when bolting them back on.
it would crank and some cylinders would fire but it would slow and slow and slow and finally stop cranking, until the next time. only took 3 years to figure out!
positive/starter connection is not a bad place to look either. and plug wires, coil/coils, as others have mentioned. but start with the ground!
posted by dorian at 10:52 AM on October 28, 2013
obviously none of us are your mechanic, but I am also going to have to say, begin with:
- bad battery ground
and/or
- bad engine ground
both of which are nominally cheap (and easy, if vaguely tedious, fixes) - make sure the battery ground is clean and tight, and same for the engine ground strap (do cars even have those anymore?) - but first take them off (disconnecting positive too), sand or wirebrush the heck out of the connections and bolts (this is the tedious part), and put some decent grease all around when bolting them back on.
it would crank and some cylinders would fire but it would slow and slow and slow and finally stop cranking, until the next time. only took 3 years to figure out!
positive/starter connection is not a bad place to look either. and plug wires, coil/coils, as others have mentioned. but start with the ground!
posted by dorian at 10:52 AM on October 28, 2013
It would help if you clarified this, because sometimes people mix up the terms, confusing the problem:
* This morning as I started it, it tried to turn over. After a few seconds, it had a little "kick" then back to the original noise.
"Turning over" means the engine is being slowly rotated by the electric starter motor, but not running under its own power. Turning over sounds like "RuvRuvRuv." What did you mean by "tried to turn over?" Was it going "RuvRuvRuv" but not "Vrooom!" or are you just hearing a click, or a staccato series of clicks, or silence? If you are hearing "RuvRuvRuv," it's not trying to turn over; it is turning over.
posted by jon1270 at 11:02 AM on October 28, 2013
* This morning as I started it, it tried to turn over. After a few seconds, it had a little "kick" then back to the original noise.
"Turning over" means the engine is being slowly rotated by the electric starter motor, but not running under its own power. Turning over sounds like "RuvRuvRuv." What did you mean by "tried to turn over?" Was it going "RuvRuvRuv" but not "Vrooom!" or are you just hearing a click, or a staccato series of clicks, or silence? If you are hearing "RuvRuvRuv," it's not trying to turn over; it is turning over.
posted by jon1270 at 11:02 AM on October 28, 2013
Replace the battery. If the problem returns after a few weeks, replace the alternator too.
posted by w0mbat at 11:17 AM on October 28, 2013
posted by w0mbat at 11:17 AM on October 28, 2013
Response by poster: jon1270: I was getting the RuvRuvRuv noise, it just wasn't actually starting the engine (no Vroom!). The noise got quieter and slower as the battery weakened and died. Intermittently it was kicking as if it was trying to start the engine but failing. Possibly as condensation was evaporating the connection was getting stronger, even as the battery was running out of power??
The advice to have the battery, starter, and alternator checked at Autozone is a good idea. I'll do that next.
If they all check out, I'll have to enlist a neighbor to start my car and see if I can see sparks, which ought to give me some idea of which wire might be screwed up.
My car is actually at a body shop today getting some work done but I'll definitely update you folks as I learn more after I get my car back.
posted by JDHarper at 11:28 AM on October 28, 2013
The advice to have the battery, starter, and alternator checked at Autozone is a good idea. I'll do that next.
If they all check out, I'll have to enlist a neighbor to start my car and see if I can see sparks, which ought to give me some idea of which wire might be screwed up.
My car is actually at a body shop today getting some work done but I'll definitely update you folks as I learn more after I get my car back.
posted by JDHarper at 11:28 AM on October 28, 2013
Id go straight to the ignition system (wires, coils, etc. ). Your engine turns over, at least for a while, and that's the biggest demand the battery ever sees. This is very unlikely to be a battery / charging system problem.
posted by jon1270 at 11:45 AM on October 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by jon1270 at 11:45 AM on October 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think jon1270 is on the right track. Replacing all the components in the ignition system is relatively inexpensive (distributor, rotor, spark plug wires, and spark plugs) (your car may have an electronic ignition module rather than a coil, and that will be the most expensive thing in the ignition circuit, the other items are pretty cheap). Your critical problem this morning was a weak battery which then died after excessive cranking. If your batt was 2 - 3 years old it may need to be replaced, especially if this excessive cranking issue is frequent. Autozone test is a great idea for that. But I don't think the batt/alternator is the SOURCE of the problem.
If the problem still occurs after sorting out the ignition circuit you may need to look into the fuel circuit. Your comment about smoke from the air intake after cranking makes me thing think about fuel but that may just be excessive fuel not being burnt from the cranking. In any event, don't let a mechanic tell you to investigate the fuel circuit until the ignition circuit is 100%. Ignition circuit first, fuel circuit second is the proper troubleshooting sequence.
posted by pandabearjohnson at 11:56 AM on October 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
If the problem still occurs after sorting out the ignition circuit you may need to look into the fuel circuit. Your comment about smoke from the air intake after cranking makes me thing think about fuel but that may just be excessive fuel not being burnt from the cranking. In any event, don't let a mechanic tell you to investigate the fuel circuit until the ignition circuit is 100%. Ignition circuit first, fuel circuit second is the proper troubleshooting sequence.
posted by pandabearjohnson at 11:56 AM on October 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have quite a bit of experience with hard-to-start Chrysler cars, and think they should have left the choke control on the dashboard. There was a time when I could sit in a a parking lot and identify the sounds of the unmistakable attempts to start Chrysler products around me. That era should be over now, so I suspect the problem is a weak battery, a worn out starter mechanism, or some equipment failure such as described above.
posted by Cranberry at 12:05 PM on October 28, 2013
posted by Cranberry at 12:05 PM on October 28, 2013
* Sometimes but not always (somewhere between 50 and 75% of the time), on the first attempt to start the car, a little cloud of white smoke or steam comes from under the hood. The smoke originates from the driver's side of the car, near the box where air filter sits (although I could not tell if the smoke was coming from underneath this box or from inside the box).
Smoke or steam coming out through the air filter when you try to start after sitting for a while suggests oil or coolant slowly leaking into one or more of the cylinders.
Your low oil problems point to oil (which would be good, since coolant might indicate a cracked block), and you could check for that by taking out the spark plugs and examining each one. The spark gap of a plug from a cylinder with a significant oil leak will be obviously fouled.
Oil typically gets into cylinders past worn rings, and needing a ring job at 155K wouldn't be all that surprising.
posted by jamjam at 12:22 PM on October 28, 2013
Smoke or steam coming out through the air filter when you try to start after sitting for a while suggests oil or coolant slowly leaking into one or more of the cylinders.
Your low oil problems point to oil (which would be good, since coolant might indicate a cracked block), and you could check for that by taking out the spark plugs and examining each one. The spark gap of a plug from a cylinder with a significant oil leak will be obviously fouled.
Oil typically gets into cylinders past worn rings, and needing a ring job at 155K wouldn't be all that surprising.
posted by jamjam at 12:22 PM on October 28, 2013
Remove the air filter and squirt two or three shots of WD40 down into the carburetor. Now try to crank the engine Be ready to give it some gas when it finally kicks in - it's cold and cranky. This was the morning ritual for my old Chrysler and me and I used it with my Ford also.
Of course, that was when they had carburetors ....
I'd still try it.
posted by aryma at 7:09 PM on October 28, 2013
Of course, that was when they had carburetors ....
I'd still try it.
posted by aryma at 7:09 PM on October 28, 2013
Response by poster: Follow-up: I finally got my car back from the body shop yesterday and took it down to Pep Boys, where they charged me $18 for their "free" battery check.
Regardless, they said I had a bad battery. I was able to take it to the mechanic who most recently changed my battery and get it replaced for free under warranty.
Pep Boys said starter and alternator were OK.
We'll see if that improves things or not; if not, I'll be taking a look at the wiring. Will have to find out if spark plugs/spark plug wire are difficult to replace myself...
posted by JDHarper at 1:40 PM on November 8, 2013
Regardless, they said I had a bad battery. I was able to take it to the mechanic who most recently changed my battery and get it replaced for free under warranty.
Pep Boys said starter and alternator were OK.
We'll see if that improves things or not; if not, I'll be taking a look at the wiring. Will have to find out if spark plugs/spark plug wire are difficult to replace myself...
posted by JDHarper at 1:40 PM on November 8, 2013
Response by poster: So far, replacing the battery has made a HUGE difference. It now starts every time I turn the key. It's still occasionally a bit slower to start (4 or 5 seconds) so a tune up would probably still be a good idea, but as long as it is actually starting every time I am happy.
posted by JDHarper at 6:35 AM on November 15, 2013
posted by JDHarper at 6:35 AM on November 15, 2013
Response by poster: Further followup: After coming back from out of town my car would not start at all. Would act like it was trying to start, similar to what it was doing before replacing the battery. But it wasn't a dying battery this time--hooking up my friend's car via jumper cables made no difference
I had parked it in my friend's driveway, and his neighbor is a mechanic. He looked at it: It had fuel, it had spark, but it just wouldn't make the leap from trying to start to actually running. Eventually we gave up and had AAA tow it to a garage recommended by this mechanic.
The garage mechanic was a bit confused too but the working theory is this: There was a temperature sensor in the computer that was reading -30 degrees. This was making the computer inject a lot more fuel into the engine to compensate for the cold. But because it wasn't that cold out, it was flooding the engine. After he fixed the sensor and cleared the flooded engine, the car has started correctly, and has in fact not been slow to start since.
He also recommended getting the car tuned up at some point, but because the geniuses at Chrysler put 3 of the spark plugs behind the fuel intake, a tuneup is a $600 job so I'll be holding off on that for a while.
posted by JDHarper at 10:26 AM on December 14, 2013
I had parked it in my friend's driveway, and his neighbor is a mechanic. He looked at it: It had fuel, it had spark, but it just wouldn't make the leap from trying to start to actually running. Eventually we gave up and had AAA tow it to a garage recommended by this mechanic.
The garage mechanic was a bit confused too but the working theory is this: There was a temperature sensor in the computer that was reading -30 degrees. This was making the computer inject a lot more fuel into the engine to compensate for the cold. But because it wasn't that cold out, it was flooding the engine. After he fixed the sensor and cleared the flooded engine, the car has started correctly, and has in fact not been slow to start since.
He also recommended getting the car tuned up at some point, but because the geniuses at Chrysler put 3 of the spark plugs behind the fuel intake, a tuneup is a $600 job so I'll be holding off on that for a while.
posted by JDHarper at 10:26 AM on December 14, 2013
Response by poster: Final followup: Car repeated the above stunt after Christmas; mechanic found another faulty sensor. Then a week ago it was raining. I started the car with some difficulty. Car seemed to be working OK until I pulled onto the interstate, whereupon it lost power and I had to coast to the side of the road. Mechanic tells me today that it's the distributor, a $400 part.
RIP 1997 Sebring.
posted by JDHarper at 4:17 PM on January 17, 2014
RIP 1997 Sebring.
posted by JDHarper at 4:17 PM on January 17, 2014
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