Would 100% of women accept a ball-gown as a gift?
October 5, 2005 4:31 PM Subscribe
Help settle a debate between me (male) and a friend (female) about whether it is a good idea to buy your girlfriend a ball-gown.
The question is inspired by a situation my friend (a 3rd party) finds herself in. Her boyfriend has been invited to a ball at an expensive hotel in London. He has invited her to join him, but with a mere two days' notice. This gives her precious little time to find a ball-gown.
Our mutual friend jokingly suggested that a great gift would be for the boyfriend to arrange for a personal shopper to be rushed to the girlfriend's house, with a stack of ball-gowns in tow. I then said that there may be some women who would find that objectionable, and would refuse the "gift". (The actual conversation was far more heated than this :-)
Anyway, I was greeted by derision from my two female chums, and debate ensued. I summarise the heart of their proposal here:
100% of women would accept the gift.
I reject this. In a city of 3 million women (and a ball-attending hemisphere of god knows how many) I am convinced that at least 1 would not be interested in the gift of a ball-gown or personal shopper-assisted spree. Am I completely mad, or only partially? Is there no female who'd say, "I don't really want a ball-gown, thank you"... who'd prefer to stay at home with the cat/computer/vibrator... who'd say "Don't buy me things, I cast off material possessions"....? And does such a person answer Ask.MeFi questions??
Astute persons may spot that at its heart, this debate is about caring for your partner, and male understanding of What a Woman Wants. We had that discussion separately, but The Ball-Gown Situation remains unresolved.
It seems to me almost like bribery. "Here, have some shiny things to cover up this awkward situation". Alternative solutions to the problem that avoid the bribery route could be for him to phone all her friends and arrange to borrow a gown; for him to hire one; etc. Anything like that. But apparently no, 100% of women would accept the personal-shopper ball-gown extravaganza.
I truly don't understand.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts, and I look forward to my edification.
The question is inspired by a situation my friend (a 3rd party) finds herself in. Her boyfriend has been invited to a ball at an expensive hotel in London. He has invited her to join him, but with a mere two days' notice. This gives her precious little time to find a ball-gown.
Our mutual friend jokingly suggested that a great gift would be for the boyfriend to arrange for a personal shopper to be rushed to the girlfriend's house, with a stack of ball-gowns in tow. I then said that there may be some women who would find that objectionable, and would refuse the "gift". (The actual conversation was far more heated than this :-)
Anyway, I was greeted by derision from my two female chums, and debate ensued. I summarise the heart of their proposal here:
100% of women would accept the gift.
I reject this. In a city of 3 million women (and a ball-attending hemisphere of god knows how many) I am convinced that at least 1 would not be interested in the gift of a ball-gown or personal shopper-assisted spree. Am I completely mad, or only partially? Is there no female who'd say, "I don't really want a ball-gown, thank you"... who'd prefer to stay at home with the cat/computer/vibrator... who'd say "Don't buy me things, I cast off material possessions"....? And does such a person answer Ask.MeFi questions??
Astute persons may spot that at its heart, this debate is about caring for your partner, and male understanding of What a Woman Wants. We had that discussion separately, but The Ball-Gown Situation remains unresolved.
It seems to me almost like bribery. "Here, have some shiny things to cover up this awkward situation". Alternative solutions to the problem that avoid the bribery route could be for him to phone all her friends and arrange to borrow a gown; for him to hire one; etc. Anything like that. But apparently no, 100% of women would accept the personal-shopper ball-gown extravaganza.
I truly don't understand.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts, and I look forward to my edification.
It depends on whether or not she wants to attend this soiree, the circumstances of the asking, their relative financial situations. Not wanting to attend is not the same thing as not being comfortable with an expensive gift.
posted by desuetude at 4:40 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by desuetude at 4:40 PM on October 5, 2005
The problem of "male understanding of What a Woman Wants" is greatly reduced if the man in question simply asks the woman in question what she wants, and if the woman simply answers honestly.
But as for 100% of women accepting the gift, your friend is clearly confused. Remind her of all the hardcore hippies on communes. They probably do not want ball gowns. And what about nudists?
(I probably wouldn't accept it either. I am neither a hardcore hippie nor a nudist.)
posted by librarina at 4:46 PM on October 5, 2005
But as for 100% of women accepting the gift, your friend is clearly confused. Remind her of all the hardcore hippies on communes. They probably do not want ball gowns. And what about nudists?
(I probably wouldn't accept it either. I am neither a hardcore hippie nor a nudist.)
posted by librarina at 4:46 PM on October 5, 2005
I am female, and I would not accept the gift of a ballgown. Depending on how well I knew the giver, I might even break up with him as a result. Expensive gifts are creepy in a payment-for-services way.
posted by cali at 4:47 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by cali at 4:47 PM on October 5, 2005
I hate the idea of personal shoppers. If I was her I'd much rather use the two days to go shopping myself (if I wanted to go), and he can buy me chocolate instead.
posted by Lotto at 4:48 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by Lotto at 4:48 PM on October 5, 2005
In that situation, I would accept the personal-shopped gown. And be flattered to be asked, and pleased by the fact that my date had put some thought into the situation. I don't see it as bribery, I see it as an acknowledgement of the awkwardness of the situation, and an attempt to alleviate at least some of it. (I'd probably pay for the gown, but since my date put me in the situation of needing to find a gown on two days notice, s/he can pay for the shopper. But that's me, and I'm weird.)
I will add the caveat that I don't (in general) have the kinds of friends who would be invited to a black-tie event. (I have, however, been to a couple of full-dress-uniform military balls, although not at two days notice.)
posted by jlkr at 4:52 PM on October 5, 2005
I will add the caveat that I don't (in general) have the kinds of friends who would be invited to a black-tie event. (I have, however, been to a couple of full-dress-uniform military balls, although not at two days notice.)
posted by jlkr at 4:52 PM on October 5, 2005
I'm female, and I've got to say--it would be a very creepy gift.
I think the most appropriate gesture would be for him to ask some female co-workers or friends for suggestions about where she might find a dress quickly. He probably should even leave the question of borrowing/hiring one up to her--some women would not be comfortable with that either.
posted by divka at 4:58 PM on October 5, 2005
I think the most appropriate gesture would be for him to ask some female co-workers or friends for suggestions about where she might find a dress quickly. He probably should even leave the question of borrowing/hiring one up to her--some women would not be comfortable with that either.
posted by divka at 4:58 PM on October 5, 2005
I'm with jlkr. It is an awkward situation, and I, as a non-hippie woman, would feel fortunate that my date recognized the difficulties in being asked to such an affair with two-days notice, and would love that he made such an effort to alleviate those difficulties. As for paying for the dress - I guess it would depend on the things others mentioned - the nature/length/depth of our relationship, finances, etc. But, my mom always said "don't look a gift horse in the mouth." If my date is willing to buy me a dress I'll probably never wear again, why not?
posted by clh at 4:59 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by clh at 4:59 PM on October 5, 2005
My dearest female friend would also have a problem with this, in the abovementioned "payment-for-services" sorta way. She & I have had extensive discussions on this sort of thing, and I must confess that although I don't fully understand she's quite vehement about it.
posted by aramaic at 5:00 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by aramaic at 5:00 PM on October 5, 2005
Erm. I think my girlfriend would use such a "gift" as grounds for a breakup.
posted by danb at 5:03 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by danb at 5:03 PM on October 5, 2005
I'm the kind of woman who shaves her legs once a year, shuns make-up and other prettifying on a regular basis, but I'm with jlkr- in that situation, with those parameters, I would accept the gown. Basically, it's not a gown for me, it's a gown for him.
posted by headspace at 5:04 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by headspace at 5:04 PM on October 5, 2005
i'm confused -- did the guy have more than two days notice about the ball? If he didn't, why is there any awkwardness that's involved? I mean, it's like, "hey, I just got invited to this penguin party -- you wanna go? Hey, i'll even buy you a dress if that'll make it easier for you."
I mean, if the guy's been invited for like, 2 months and is just now springing it, I can see the "awkwardness" of the situation, but otherwise, if it were me, I really wouldn't feel required to do anything -- hey, I bet there's an open bar at this fancy-schmancy event, so I'm doing YOU a favor, and hell, not only that but I'm gonna buy you a fucking dress! I mean, hey -- that's class!
Given, i realize it takes longer to find a gown then it does to rent a tux, but i don't see how he's created that problem.
of course, post-incident*, there is little chance of me getting invited to rich people's parties.
* a truly marvelous incident that the margins of this book are too small to contain.
posted by fishfucker at 5:06 PM on October 5, 2005
I mean, if the guy's been invited for like, 2 months and is just now springing it, I can see the "awkwardness" of the situation, but otherwise, if it were me, I really wouldn't feel required to do anything -- hey, I bet there's an open bar at this fancy-schmancy event, so I'm doing YOU a favor, and hell, not only that but I'm gonna buy you a fucking dress! I mean, hey -- that's class!
Given, i realize it takes longer to find a gown then it does to rent a tux, but i don't see how he's created that problem.
of course, post-incident*, there is little chance of me getting invited to rich people's parties.
* a truly marvelous incident that the margins of this book are too small to contain.
posted by fishfucker at 5:06 PM on October 5, 2005
My wife's first reaction (she'd read up to the emoticon) "What? He's crazy." (referring to the poster's assertion)
My wife's second reaction (after reading the rest) "I'd take it. In fact, after getting such short notice he'd better by me a dress."
posted by oddman at 5:08 PM on October 5, 2005
My wife's second reaction (after reading the rest) "I'd take it. In fact, after getting such short notice he'd better by me a dress."
posted by oddman at 5:08 PM on October 5, 2005
This is a really silly question. Of course your friends are wrong. Some women would probably love it. We've already from others that they'd hate it. For me, it would depend on the event, the guy, and a whole lot of context.
Maybe you're subtly asking us for advice on your friend's behalf about how to find a suitable ball gown in London on short notice?
posted by tangerine at 5:11 PM on October 5, 2005
Maybe you're subtly asking us for advice on your friend's behalf about how to find a suitable ball gown in London on short notice?
posted by tangerine at 5:11 PM on October 5, 2005
I'm reading this debate with some amusement. This is a question that will be answered differently, depending on a person's background and the way they were raised.
Our kind writer is in England, and most of us answering are in North America - is that not correct? My suspicions are that responses will vary across the pond.
So here's an answer from the beautiful West Coast of Canada (via Montreal, where i was raised in a mostly Latin environment)
2 days' notice? And he's my boyfriend and not the creep in Accounting who can't get a date?
I would take the dress. I've been to enough black ties to know that (1) they are sophisticated and expensive; (2) if I accept this invitation I will still need to spend some money on hair, makeup and other incidentals; and (3) he's stuck, I'm helping him out, he's my boyfriend, and the dress is a kind gift for a last-minute invite.
Plus, I would go out with him again some later evening with same dress, different crowd.
Me being me, I'd chose something sophisticated yet practical, so I could wear this beautiful dress for a few years of black-ties. Not some froufrou number to be discarded the next week ;)
Oh, this thread offers potential for hot debate.
posted by seawallrunner at 5:13 PM on October 5, 2005
Our kind writer is in England, and most of us answering are in North America - is that not correct? My suspicions are that responses will vary across the pond.
So here's an answer from the beautiful West Coast of Canada (via Montreal, where i was raised in a mostly Latin environment)
2 days' notice? And he's my boyfriend and not the creep in Accounting who can't get a date?
I would take the dress. I've been to enough black ties to know that (1) they are sophisticated and expensive; (2) if I accept this invitation I will still need to spend some money on hair, makeup and other incidentals; and (3) he's stuck, I'm helping him out, he's my boyfriend, and the dress is a kind gift for a last-minute invite.
Plus, I would go out with him again some later evening with same dress, different crowd.
Me being me, I'd chose something sophisticated yet practical, so I could wear this beautiful dress for a few years of black-ties. Not some froufrou number to be discarded the next week ;)
Oh, this thread offers potential for hot debate.
posted by seawallrunner at 5:13 PM on October 5, 2005
I agree with headspace. It's really for him more than for me. To add to that: this may be the sense of creepyness some women get, in the sense that you're being asked to accompany someone as arm-dressing, and they want you to dress up according to their style (as if you couldn't rise to the occasion without their help, their oh-so-manly help). If you loook at it that way.
Depending on the person, I'd take the gown, but this comes from the standpoint of being an equal. If I had any indication that this was an arm-dressing thing and not an "in consideration of the awkwardness" gift, I might reconsider my decision to go.
posted by lorrer at 5:15 PM on October 5, 2005
Depending on the person, I'd take the gown, but this comes from the standpoint of being an equal. If I had any indication that this was an arm-dressing thing and not an "in consideration of the awkwardness" gift, I might reconsider my decision to go.
posted by lorrer at 5:15 PM on October 5, 2005
>did the guy have more than two days notice about the ball?
the VP of the company who was originally the recipient of the 2-months-ago invitation may have been called out of country. The boyfriend is the lucky recipient. This happened a lot in a company that I used to work with.
posted by seawallrunner at 5:16 PM on October 5, 2005
the VP of the company who was originally the recipient of the 2-months-ago invitation may have been called out of country. The boyfriend is the lucky recipient. This happened a lot in a company that I used to work with.
posted by seawallrunner at 5:16 PM on October 5, 2005
I would love it. LOVE IT. Just make sure you know her size and measurements! Good luck!
This doesn't creep me out. In fact, you get the Fark hero tag for this. Surprise black tie. In LONDON. She shows up and you've found her a beautiful dress. So what if this is playing to my 6 year old Disney Cinderella liking self? Do it! You are manfriend of the year!
posted by pieoverdone at 5:24 PM on October 5, 2005
This doesn't creep me out. In fact, you get the Fark hero tag for this. Surprise black tie. In LONDON. She shows up and you've found her a beautiful dress. So what if this is playing to my 6 year old Disney Cinderella liking self? Do it! You are manfriend of the year!
posted by pieoverdone at 5:24 PM on October 5, 2005
I think ball gowns rule.
posted by thirteenkiller at 5:40 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by thirteenkiller at 5:40 PM on October 5, 2005
I think the women are assuming the following scenario:
Boy gets last minute invite to ball. Boy invites girl. Girl is flattered and excited to go but worried about proper attire. Boy provides a way for her to obtain the proper attire, thus enabling her to attend. Since the gown is a pre-requisite for attending, her gown is as important to her ability to attend as the invitation.
Any woman in that scenario would likely be grateful for the help since the alternative is to squeeze in finding appropriate attire in 2 days in between the other activities in her life. Highly stressful.
From another point of view, if she is grudgingly accepting the invite then the shopper could be seen as coercion, the offer of payment for the dresses can be seen as an attempt at bribery or worse, etc.
Whether or not the boyfriend should pay for the gift is a matter between them and its appropriateness is extraneous to the argument that your friends are making. The boyfriend is providing a service to help his girl out of a jam. The thinking is that (assuming that she wanted to go in the first place) she would be mad not to accept the offer of help and resolve the details of payment later. Since they are already dating, the assumption is that it is not attempt to buy her services for the evening or to point out her own shortcomings any more than driving her to the event is a sign that she can't drive herself.
posted by hindmost at 5:43 PM on October 5, 2005
Boy gets last minute invite to ball. Boy invites girl. Girl is flattered and excited to go but worried about proper attire. Boy provides a way for her to obtain the proper attire, thus enabling her to attend. Since the gown is a pre-requisite for attending, her gown is as important to her ability to attend as the invitation.
Any woman in that scenario would likely be grateful for the help since the alternative is to squeeze in finding appropriate attire in 2 days in between the other activities in her life. Highly stressful.
From another point of view, if she is grudgingly accepting the invite then the shopper could be seen as coercion, the offer of payment for the dresses can be seen as an attempt at bribery or worse, etc.
Whether or not the boyfriend should pay for the gift is a matter between them and its appropriateness is extraneous to the argument that your friends are making. The boyfriend is providing a service to help his girl out of a jam. The thinking is that (assuming that she wanted to go in the first place) she would be mad not to accept the offer of help and resolve the details of payment later. Since they are already dating, the assumption is that it is not attempt to buy her services for the evening or to point out her own shortcomings any more than driving her to the event is a sign that she can't drive herself.
posted by hindmost at 5:43 PM on October 5, 2005
It seems to me almost like bribery. "Here, have some shiny things to cover up this awkward situation"
Well, that never happens.
posted by dhartung at 5:53 PM on October 5, 2005
Well, that never happens.
posted by dhartung at 5:53 PM on October 5, 2005
I would find it very dubious that 100% of women $ANYTHING
posted by pompomtom at 6:05 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by pompomtom at 6:05 PM on October 5, 2005
Creepy if it's not someone I've been dating a long time. Nice if it's my boyfriend and he didn't have any advance notice of the affair, although I'd probably still be annoyed at having to dress up in general.
posted by footnote at 6:16 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by footnote at 6:16 PM on October 5, 2005
I am female, and would not accept a gift of a ball-gown. But I also wouldn't go to any event requiring one. But I also don't have the kind of boyfriend who gets invited to black-tie events.
This is pretty much me too. IF we were in some alternate universe where I was a ball-attending gal, I'd much prefer the scenario your friend outlines [someone comes and gets my lumpy ass into a fancy dress and I go all Pretty Woman on their asses] than having to dress myself for such an event.
posted by jessamyn at 6:32 PM on October 5, 2005
This is pretty much me too. IF we were in some alternate universe where I was a ball-attending gal, I'd much prefer the scenario your friend outlines [someone comes and gets my lumpy ass into a fancy dress and I go all Pretty Woman on their asses] than having to dress myself for such an event.
posted by jessamyn at 6:32 PM on October 5, 2005
I'm with hindmost. It all depends on the parties involved, the nature of their relationship, and how the offer is communicated. It could be a generous and gracious gesture to acknowledge the short notice and compensate for the last-minute running around. Or, it could be icky in a payment-for-services kind of way. It all depends on the people. And certainly, I'd be dubious of anyone who said that 100% of women would say the same thing on *any* given issue.
posted by ambrosia at 6:35 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by ambrosia at 6:35 PM on October 5, 2005
Do you honestly imagine there is any question that 100% of women would answer the same way? And even if you mean 'would the vast majority accept?' you have to keep in mind the reasons why they might accept, which would likely include 'Because it's easy' and 'Because it would make my boyfriend happy' for at least some statistically significant portion of those women.
The question here, though, has nothing to do with 100% of women. It has only to do with 1 woman. "Do you feel you have enough time to get ready for this? I can arrange to have a personal shopper come by and help you prepare?" would be a perfectly valid question. It would take some of the 'romance' out of it for women who would love the fairy tale you describe, but it would take a lot of the sting out of it for women who would hate the fairy tale that you describe.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:05 PM on October 5, 2005
The question here, though, has nothing to do with 100% of women. It has only to do with 1 woman. "Do you feel you have enough time to get ready for this? I can arrange to have a personal shopper come by and help you prepare?" would be a perfectly valid question. It would take some of the 'romance' out of it for women who would love the fairy tale you describe, but it would take a lot of the sting out of it for women who would hate the fairy tale that you describe.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:05 PM on October 5, 2005
Man, that would be so awesome. I would love for my boyfriend to have a ball to take me to period. And getting a free ball gown out of the deal? Sweet!
posted by ch1x0r at 7:51 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by ch1x0r at 7:51 PM on October 5, 2005
Obviously not 100% of women would accept, but I would. If I liked the guy and figured that I would have fun at the ball, then, why not? It seems thoughtful, as in the guy realizes that it's a bit presumptious to expect the girl to drop everything and buy an expensive dress that she'll probably never wear again, so he thought of a way to make it less inconvenient for her.
posted by emd3737 at 7:58 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by emd3737 at 7:58 PM on October 5, 2005
i'm sorta with jacquilynne ... but from a different angle.
It doesn't matter if you're right or not, see the girls are saying any girl (meaning them) would like to be pampered. You're saying, no, not every girl (meaning them) likes to be pampered. Ergo you are derided for your complete lack of empathy and failure to understand that they would enjoy being pampered with a dress and an invitation to a ball.
My advice, if you don't like the girls approach, don't argue, just say something like "you know, balls are nice and all, but I think the perfect date is a casual picnic in the park" or something. In other words, your discussion is kind of equivalent to trying to find the correct answer to "Do I look fat in this?". The game has no winning moves, and its best to just change to an entirely different game.
posted by forforf at 8:05 PM on October 5, 2005
It doesn't matter if you're right or not, see the girls are saying any girl (meaning them) would like to be pampered. You're saying, no, not every girl (meaning them) likes to be pampered. Ergo you are derided for your complete lack of empathy and failure to understand that they would enjoy being pampered with a dress and an invitation to a ball.
My advice, if you don't like the girls approach, don't argue, just say something like "you know, balls are nice and all, but I think the perfect date is a casual picnic in the park" or something. In other words, your discussion is kind of equivalent to trying to find the correct answer to "Do I look fat in this?". The game has no winning moves, and its best to just change to an entirely different game.
posted by forforf at 8:05 PM on October 5, 2005
I'd go for it. It's not every day you get to have the adventure of going to a last-minute ball dressed to the nines in a fancy gown.
posted by limeonaire at 8:27 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by limeonaire at 8:27 PM on October 5, 2005
Hey hippies this is a black tie in the middle of London. Money is not an issue. If the idea of sending a personal shopper to give the girl a $4,000+ gown enters his mind he's not caring about how to pay for it. I'm dumbing this down a bit, as I'm sure this isn't chump change but as a guy I would say with all honesty any obligation ends at just showing up and accompanying.
I think this illustrates the continued American gap between upper and middle classes. Yeah it's really different up there despite what everyone wants to think.
posted by geoff. at 8:41 PM on October 5, 2005
I think this illustrates the continued American gap between upper and middle classes. Yeah it's really different up there despite what everyone wants to think.
posted by geoff. at 8:41 PM on October 5, 2005
Expensive gifts are creepy in a payment-for-services way.
You have absolutely no idea how much guys hate when girls have this attitude. It's not only demeaning to yourself, but even moreso to the guy.
posted by I Love Tacos at 8:44 PM on October 5, 2005
You have absolutely no idea how much guys hate when girls have this attitude. It's not only demeaning to yourself, but even moreso to the guy.
posted by I Love Tacos at 8:44 PM on October 5, 2005
I'd do it, but that probably has to do with the nature of my relationship with my boyfriend (I wouldn't feel like he was just dressing me up to show me off - I'd feel like he was giving me an opportunity to go with him to this cool thing and helping me out with the dress, since it's at the last minute).
Also, if the problem is with him paying for the dress... well, I figure anyone who's getting invited to a ball has more money than I do. I can't afford to throw all that money around on ball gowns, but if he is willing to, then great! Maybe we can consider it my Christmas present too, if I'm feeling guilty about the cost.
(This part's harder to imagine, because my grad-student boyfriend isn't likely to be buying me ball gowns any time soon.)
posted by srah at 8:45 PM on October 5, 2005
Also, if the problem is with him paying for the dress... well, I figure anyone who's getting invited to a ball has more money than I do. I can't afford to throw all that money around on ball gowns, but if he is willing to, then great! Maybe we can consider it my Christmas present too, if I'm feeling guilty about the cost.
(This part's harder to imagine, because my grad-student boyfriend isn't likely to be buying me ball gowns any time soon.)
posted by srah at 8:45 PM on October 5, 2005
Does Moss Bros.--or any similar place in London-- rent female formalwear? I think there are places in the states that do this.
posted by brujita at 9:11 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by brujita at 9:11 PM on October 5, 2005
I think a girl might raise an objection to the whole 'arm dressing' thing. A woman would rise to the occasion, and display a maximum of that lovely, sadly scarce, quality called 'grace'.
However, I also think, unless the girlfriend in question is of some perfect off-the-rack size (if there is such a thing in context of such gowns), the personal shopper had better be a seamstress. I've seen the women folk in my family go to great lengths to prepare for such occasions, and the fitting of a gown tends to require a lot of effort.
posted by Goofyy at 9:28 PM on October 5, 2005
However, I also think, unless the girlfriend in question is of some perfect off-the-rack size (if there is such a thing in context of such gowns), the personal shopper had better be a seamstress. I've seen the women folk in my family go to great lengths to prepare for such occasions, and the fitting of a gown tends to require a lot of effort.
posted by Goofyy at 9:28 PM on October 5, 2005
I think my wife would be mystified and put off by having a ball gown purchased for her by any means.
Expensive gifts are creepy in a payment-for-services way.
You have absolutely no idea how much guys hate when girls have this attitude. It's not only demeaning to yourself, but even moreso to the guy.
Keep them generalizations to yourself, "guy." I have actually no idea what you are objecting to, but, yes, expensive gifts are creepy because they come with a feeling of "aaannd this is how much I love you," along with a feeling of "showed you." Ugh.
posted by argybarg at 9:44 PM on October 5, 2005
Expensive gifts are creepy in a payment-for-services way.
You have absolutely no idea how much guys hate when girls have this attitude. It's not only demeaning to yourself, but even moreso to the guy.
Keep them generalizations to yourself, "guy." I have actually no idea what you are objecting to, but, yes, expensive gifts are creepy because they come with a feeling of "aaannd this is how much I love you," along with a feeling of "showed you." Ugh.
posted by argybarg at 9:44 PM on October 5, 2005
This reminds me of when Charles proposed to Di, and instead of her having to go to a jewelry store to look at possible rings, the royal jeweler (Garrard?) sent someone with a tray of rings to the palace so Di could look at them privately. (As we all know, she chose the biggest one, that huge honking sapphire.) But I thought aw, what a cool thing to do, what a different life these princesses lead.
posted by GaelFC at 11:11 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by GaelFC at 11:11 PM on October 5, 2005
Acceptable gifts to women include flowers, candy, and books. Clothing may be given only to sisters, mistresses, and wives.
But I'm very old school.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:53 AM on October 6, 2005
But I'm very old school.
posted by IndigoJones at 4:53 AM on October 6, 2005
Response by poster: Excellent! This is getting just about as heated as the debate she and I went through ;-)
To clarify a few things:
The Ball-Gown Situation does not involve me. I am not taking my girlfriend to a ball, nor buying her a gown.
We assume the woman would enjoy going to a ball, under normal circumstances.
Yes, really, she said 100% of all women (given the above assumption, I suppose). The subtext I was getting here, was "I'm a woman, and I'm giving you this advice, therefore it can't be wrong". That's why we pinned it down to 100%, absolutely 100%. I'm being "generous" by allowing the assumption that we can discount people who would refuse to attend a ball at all.
The boyfriend's culpability here isn't the issue, as far as I can see. If it is, then we'd have to measure it somehow, and find an appropriate gift as recompense. What about 2 gowns? Matching accessories? Surely that way leads to bribery, and blackmail? It seems to me that she's in a fix, and he wants to get her out of it. If he put her in it then he should work hard to fix it for her - but shouldn't he do that anyway, regardless of how they got there? His (possible) culpability is a separate issue: he shouldn't act like such a dick.
Please remember - I'm asking this hypothetically! I'm not a tight-wad, I don't treat women as arm-candy, and I'm often thoughtful and considerate (working towards "always" on that one). So:
tangerine - silly yes, but I'm not asking for advice.
pioverdone - thanks, but I can't accept the award ;-)
Other words:
hindmost - exactly. The monetary value isn't the issue. This caused much debate. I found the cost of the "solution" obscene and not at all to my taste. Perhaps I could afford it, but I'd chose not to. No, this is about caring, looking after your partner. I don't want to lead the debate in any direction, but surely, surely some women would say "That's daft, I'll just borrow my sister's dress"? And surely a man could offer a solution which demonstrates just as much affection and thought, without the outrageous price-tag?
indigo jones - lol :-D
Thanks for everyone's responses. I'm not trying to set any cats among the pigeons, just curious :-)
posted by ajp at 6:02 AM on October 6, 2005 [1 favorite]
To clarify a few things:
The Ball-Gown Situation does not involve me. I am not taking my girlfriend to a ball, nor buying her a gown.
We assume the woman would enjoy going to a ball, under normal circumstances.
Yes, really, she said 100% of all women (given the above assumption, I suppose). The subtext I was getting here, was "I'm a woman, and I'm giving you this advice, therefore it can't be wrong". That's why we pinned it down to 100%, absolutely 100%. I'm being "generous" by allowing the assumption that we can discount people who would refuse to attend a ball at all.
The boyfriend's culpability here isn't the issue, as far as I can see. If it is, then we'd have to measure it somehow, and find an appropriate gift as recompense. What about 2 gowns? Matching accessories? Surely that way leads to bribery, and blackmail? It seems to me that she's in a fix, and he wants to get her out of it. If he put her in it then he should work hard to fix it for her - but shouldn't he do that anyway, regardless of how they got there? His (possible) culpability is a separate issue: he shouldn't act like such a dick.
Please remember - I'm asking this hypothetically! I'm not a tight-wad, I don't treat women as arm-candy, and I'm often thoughtful and considerate (working towards "always" on that one). So:
tangerine - silly yes, but I'm not asking for advice.
pioverdone - thanks, but I can't accept the award ;-)
Other words:
hindmost - exactly. The monetary value isn't the issue. This caused much debate. I found the cost of the "solution" obscene and not at all to my taste. Perhaps I could afford it, but I'd chose not to. No, this is about caring, looking after your partner. I don't want to lead the debate in any direction, but surely, surely some women would say "That's daft, I'll just borrow my sister's dress"? And surely a man could offer a solution which demonstrates just as much affection and thought, without the outrageous price-tag?
indigo jones - lol :-D
Thanks for everyone's responses. I'm not trying to set any cats among the pigeons, just curious :-)
posted by ajp at 6:02 AM on October 6, 2005 [1 favorite]
Expensive gifts are creepy in a payment-for-services way.
Except the service is going to the ball, I think, not "services" in the way this generally implies.
I don't know. For me personally, it would be odd. But then, people tend to date people at the same socioeconomic level, so if it's plausible to send it, I suspect it would be accepted.
posted by dagnyscott at 6:43 AM on October 6, 2005
Except the service is going to the ball, I think, not "services" in the way this generally implies.
I don't know. For me personally, it would be odd. But then, people tend to date people at the same socioeconomic level, so if it's plausible to send it, I suspect it would be accepted.
posted by dagnyscott at 6:43 AM on October 6, 2005
It should be obvious that there is nothing, gift or gesture or other, which would appeal to all members of either sex. Congratulations. You win be default because their case was stated too broadly. But even conceding you the argument on those grounds, I do not understand your objection to your friend's suggestion. Do you find it offensive that the idea was suggested at all? Surely the boyfriend, who has the option of either accepting the advice or not, will be better able to judge its appropriateness than you. I don't see how your feeling that it would be creepy is relevant to his situation in any way. While you phrased your argument in terms of "is it ever wrong?" you seem to be suggesting that it is never right. Examples: "It seems to me like bribery" and "I found the cost of the "solution" obscene." In this implied argument you are clearly incorrect.
As an aside, I hope I am never unlucky enough to be in a relationship with someone who would think so little of me that they would feel bribed if I bought them a gift.
posted by Nothing at 7:14 AM on October 6, 2005
As an aside, I hope I am never unlucky enough to be in a relationship with someone who would think so little of me that they would feel bribed if I bought them a gift.
posted by Nothing at 7:14 AM on October 6, 2005
Assuming this guy was my boyfriend/SO, and assuming that he was given very little notice, and assuming that he could pay for it, I would certainly accept the gift of a ball-gown or personal shopper. Alternatively, I would just take the AmEx to the store myself, but whatever. If it's so important that he goes, and he obviously wants to take me, then there is no reason I shouldn't accept the gift.
The only way it would be creepy is if it was not my long-term boyfriend, honestly. There are some people in one's life that need to be above suspicion, right? Besides the fact, if the dress is "Payment for services" we have bigger problems than a last-minute fancy-schmancy party.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:42 AM on October 6, 2005
The only way it would be creepy is if it was not my long-term boyfriend, honestly. There are some people in one's life that need to be above suspicion, right? Besides the fact, if the dress is "Payment for services" we have bigger problems than a last-minute fancy-schmancy party.
posted by Medieval Maven at 7:42 AM on October 6, 2005
You win by default because their case was stated too broadly.
Yeah, as stated this is ridiculous: you trap your opponent into making a ridiculous claim ("That's right, absolutely all women!") and then smugly point out that women X, Y, and Z say they wouldn't feel that way (which you knew would be the result of posting this at MeFi). Ignoring that aspect of the question and focusing on the only interesting part (to what extent might women who can actually imagine themselves in the situation, which excludes the hippie contingent, feel pleased/insulted?) I am getting the impression that you are wrong in your unstated but obvious contention that any sensible woman would agree with you. I find seawallrunner's response particularly convincing. But, of course, if you want to play the 100% game (yeah, yeah, I know, she agreed to those rules, she practically insisted on them), you win. Congratulations!
posted by languagehat at 7:47 AM on October 6, 2005
Yeah, as stated this is ridiculous: you trap your opponent into making a ridiculous claim ("That's right, absolutely all women!") and then smugly point out that women X, Y, and Z say they wouldn't feel that way (which you knew would be the result of posting this at MeFi). Ignoring that aspect of the question and focusing on the only interesting part (to what extent might women who can actually imagine themselves in the situation, which excludes the hippie contingent, feel pleased/insulted?) I am getting the impression that you are wrong in your unstated but obvious contention that any sensible woman would agree with you. I find seawallrunner's response particularly convincing. But, of course, if you want to play the 100% game (yeah, yeah, I know, she agreed to those rules, she practically insisted on them), you win. Congratulations!
posted by languagehat at 7:47 AM on October 6, 2005
Response by poster: In response to Nothing:
Although it's not strictly relevant, I was surprised/offended that my suggestion of the solution possibly not being the most appropriate in all situations was dismissed out of hand.
I'm not suggesting it's never right, just asking if it's always the best thing to do.
I may struggle to justify it, but I can't be "incorrect" in finding something obscene :-)
My feelings of creepiness on this situation are as valid as anyone else's, since we could all find ourselves in similar reparatory circumstances.
As librarina said, I feel that the best thing to do would be to ask. My friend's assertion suggests that this is pointless, since 100% of women in this situation would appreciate the gift. Simply asking was my suggestion too, which is why I'm here, checking my sanity :-)
Gifts are often appropriate. In this situation, is it in fact a gift?
posted by ajp at 7:52 AM on October 6, 2005
Although it's not strictly relevant, I was surprised/offended that my suggestion of the solution possibly not being the most appropriate in all situations was dismissed out of hand.
I'm not suggesting it's never right, just asking if it's always the best thing to do.
I may struggle to justify it, but I can't be "incorrect" in finding something obscene :-)
My feelings of creepiness on this situation are as valid as anyone else's, since we could all find ourselves in similar reparatory circumstances.
As librarina said, I feel that the best thing to do would be to ask. My friend's assertion suggests that this is pointless, since 100% of women in this situation would appreciate the gift. Simply asking was my suggestion too, which is why I'm here, checking my sanity :-)
Gifts are often appropriate. In this situation, is it in fact a gift?
posted by ajp at 7:52 AM on October 6, 2005
Response by poster: LanguageHat: Well, I didn't do any trapping. It's just curiosity! I'm wondering about the appropriateness of making assumptions about this sort of behaviour. And I'm not suggesting that only sensible people would agree with me. Plenty of sensible people are doing otherwise.
In the face of overwhelming opinion I just decided to ask elsewhere. Sure I knew, or suspected, what the answer would be. But it's interesting to see what is surfacing here, and that's the real meat of it.
Revulsion at my debating tactics aside, focus on the "interesting" part and let me know what you think, without assuming unstated contentions.
posted by ajp at 8:01 AM on October 6, 2005
In the face of overwhelming opinion I just decided to ask elsewhere. Sure I knew, or suspected, what the answer would be. But it's interesting to see what is surfacing here, and that's the real meat of it.
Revulsion at my debating tactics aside, focus on the "interesting" part and let me know what you think, without assuming unstated contentions.
posted by ajp at 8:01 AM on October 6, 2005
I think he's demonstrating excellent manners. I mean, if they were heading off to a barn-raising on short notice, and she was excited about attending but didn't own a hammer or have time to purchase one, he might find a way to help her. If he's able to foot the bill easily for the ball gown--really a necessary tool for their undertaking--it's polite and proper of him to offer.
posted by hamster at 8:04 AM on October 6, 2005
posted by hamster at 8:04 AM on October 6, 2005
That is understandable. Dismissing your suggestion to ask out of hand was rude, and, as we have already covered, obviously incorrect as it was based on the idea that all women are the same. Nothing is ever "always the best thing to do." You are, in fact the winner of this argument. There is no other way to interpret it. No rational person would disagree.
I did not mean that you were incorrect in your feeling that it was obscene. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was saying that there seemed to be an implied argument, and that this implied argument was incorrect. I quoted your comment about it being obscene to support my contention that there was an implied argument. (If you find something obscene, and feel it is like bribery, is does not seem to be a stretch to assume that you are claiming the practice is wrong.) But you have clarified that you did not intend to argue this, and were only stating your individual opinion, so the point is moot.
Unless presented with evidence to the contrary, I would say that yes, it is a gift.
posted by Nothing at 8:35 AM on October 6, 2005
I did not mean that you were incorrect in your feeling that it was obscene. I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was saying that there seemed to be an implied argument, and that this implied argument was incorrect. I quoted your comment about it being obscene to support my contention that there was an implied argument. (If you find something obscene, and feel it is like bribery, is does not seem to be a stretch to assume that you are claiming the practice is wrong.) But you have clarified that you did not intend to argue this, and were only stating your individual opinion, so the point is moot.
Unless presented with evidence to the contrary, I would say that yes, it is a gift.
posted by Nothing at 8:35 AM on October 6, 2005
...stating your individual opinion that it was obscene and like bribery in some cases...
posted by Nothing at 8:38 AM on October 6, 2005
posted by Nothing at 8:38 AM on October 6, 2005
As librarina said, I feel that the best thing to do would be to ask. My friend's assertion suggests that this is pointless, since 100% of women in this situation would appreciate the gift
wait wait wait -- is the situation that instead of being "hey, wanna go to this ball", he'd just send 'round the personal shopper, who would inform the lady in question that she would be attending a ball in two days time and she was required to pick out a dress, with absolutely no communication beforehand about the event by the boyfriend?
Because that's a totally different question, where the boyfriend is assuming that the girlfriend will attend the event with him no matter what. I can imagine a great deal of women being "WTF?" and also many being pleasantly surprised.
posted by fishfucker at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2005
wait wait wait -- is the situation that instead of being "hey, wanna go to this ball", he'd just send 'round the personal shopper, who would inform the lady in question that she would be attending a ball in two days time and she was required to pick out a dress, with absolutely no communication beforehand about the event by the boyfriend?
Because that's a totally different question, where the boyfriend is assuming that the girlfriend will attend the event with him no matter what. I can imagine a great deal of women being "WTF?" and also many being pleasantly surprised.
posted by fishfucker at 1:32 PM on October 6, 2005
Keep them generalizations to yourself, "guy." I have actually no idea what you are objecting to, but, yes, expensive gifts are creepy because they come with a feeling of "aaannd this is how much I love you," along with a feeling of "showed you." Ugh.
The obvious implication of "payment for services" is that the man thinks of his significant other as a prostitute. I find that idea extremely objectionable.
Believe it or not, a lot of men just want to go out and have a memorable experience with a person they care about. After all, who wants to go out alone, and eat at The French Laundry or The Fat Duck?
It's my sincere belief that the people you're talking about would be creepy whether or not they'd just purchased an expensive gift. Without one, they'd just be doing something differently creepy.
posted by I Love Tacos at 4:30 PM on October 7, 2005
The obvious implication of "payment for services" is that the man thinks of his significant other as a prostitute. I find that idea extremely objectionable.
Believe it or not, a lot of men just want to go out and have a memorable experience with a person they care about. After all, who wants to go out alone, and eat at The French Laundry or The Fat Duck?
It's my sincere belief that the people you're talking about would be creepy whether or not they'd just purchased an expensive gift. Without one, they'd just be doing something differently creepy.
posted by I Love Tacos at 4:30 PM on October 7, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
I am female, and would not accept a gift of a ball-gown. But I also wouldn't go to any event requiring one. But I also don't have the kind of boyfriend who gets invited to black-tie events.
posted by ITheCosmos at 4:34 PM on October 5, 2005