Child Choir or Children's Choir/ Adult Choir or Adult's Choir?
October 20, 2013 7:19 AM Subscribe
What is best accepted usage for the use of apostrophe in descriptive titles such as for choirs made up only of children or adults. What is better Child Choir or Children's Choir?
I have recently be tasked with editing a text that has undergone translation from another language. The text is full of the phrases Children's Choir and Children's Choirs and to my native English speaker ear I prefer Child Choir and Child Choirs. However googling I can see plenty of use of "children's choir". The text is sometimes talking about a particular choir for children and sometimes talking about choirs for children in general. I think I can accept "children's choir", but for some reason I balk at accepting "Adult's Choir", I imagine reading it out and I much prefer "Adult Choir". Please could somebody help me out of this confusion? The text is in British English but I would welcome input from any native English speaker that could make sense of why I am having difficulty. Thanks
I have recently be tasked with editing a text that has undergone translation from another language. The text is full of the phrases Children's Choir and Children's Choirs and to my native English speaker ear I prefer Child Choir and Child Choirs. However googling I can see plenty of use of "children's choir". The text is sometimes talking about a particular choir for children and sometimes talking about choirs for children in general. I think I can accept "children's choir", but for some reason I balk at accepting "Adult's Choir", I imagine reading it out and I much prefer "Adult Choir". Please could somebody help me out of this confusion? The text is in British English but I would welcome input from any native English speaker that could make sense of why I am having difficulty. Thanks
Is the phrase "Adult's Choir" used in the text, or are you just sort of extrapolating it? As a native English-speaking (American) choral singer, I would prefer "Children's Choir" over "Child Choir" fairly strongly but I would not say "Adult's Choir" OR "Adult Choir." I would say "Men's Choir" or "Women's Choir" where appropriate (but never "Woman Choir" or "Man Choir"). In general, if it's not specified or made clear from context, one assumes a choir is made up of a mixed group of adults.
"Adult Choir" sounds especially weird to me because of the adult movie/situations/beverages association.
posted by mskyle at 7:28 AM on October 20, 2013
"Adult Choir" sounds especially weird to me because of the adult movie/situations/beverages association.
posted by mskyle at 7:28 AM on October 20, 2013
Response by poster: The text is a text discussing composition for Children's Choir. An example phrase regarding Choir for Adults is
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult's choirs, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s choirs in the Nordic countries etc
posted by foleypt at 7:33 AM on October 20, 2013
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult's choirs, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s choirs in the Nordic countries etc
posted by foleypt at 7:33 AM on October 20, 2013
I don't think it's jarring enough to change, although if I were the translator I might have gone with "choirs of adults."
posted by mskyle at 7:37 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mskyle at 7:37 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Children's Choir and children's choirs are the standard, accepted terms on both sides of the Atlantic. Choirs for grown-ups are adult choirs rather than adult's choirs.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:37 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by DarlingBri at 7:37 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Yeah, I used to sing in things with the name 'xyz children's choir', and now I sing in things with the name 'xyz adult choir'. There's no logic to it, it's just standard usage.
posted by hydropsyche at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 7:46 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: DarlingBri how do you come by your knowledge of this? I agree with your judgement but I find it hard to justify.
My best attempt at the above example is
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult choir, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s choirs in the Nordic countries etc
where I also want to put choir in the singular for some reason. I am not a professional editor, just an ExPat native English speaker from a country where they never seemed to teach you any English grammar in school, trying to help out a friend.
posted by foleypt at 7:47 AM on October 20, 2013
My best attempt at the above example is
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult choir, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s choirs in the Nordic countries etc
where I also want to put choir in the singular for some reason. I am not a professional editor, just an ExPat native English speaker from a country where they never seemed to teach you any English grammar in school, trying to help out a friend.
posted by foleypt at 7:47 AM on October 20, 2013
To keep the flow similar to Adult Choir, try Youth Choir.
posted by Feisty at 7:56 AM on October 20, 2013
posted by Feisty at 7:56 AM on October 20, 2013
" Afterwards there appeared several children’s choirs in the Nordic countries etc ...where I also want to put choir in the singular for some reason. "
Where they're talking about multiple choirs it's obviously plural. Do you mean you're uncertain what the plural of "choir" is, i.e. whether the word "choir" can be either singular or plural depending on context? Like "deer," for example?
posted by jon1270 at 8:00 AM on October 20, 2013
Where they're talking about multiple choirs it's obviously plural. Do you mean you're uncertain what the plural of "choir" is, i.e. whether the word "choir" can be either singular or plural depending on context? Like "deer," for example?
posted by jon1270 at 8:00 AM on October 20, 2013
Response by poster: This is where I get to be taught how to write my native language by a bunch of strangers on the internet ;)
The bit I made in the singular is the first bit: adult choir rather than the original adult's choirs
I feel I should use the singular because I am talking about Scandinavian adult choir in general not about any particular choir or choirs
Also because my brain is probably doing a job on me because of choirs choir's etc.. a curse upon the apostrophe!
Thanks for the replies btw
posted by foleypt at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2013
The bit I made in the singular is the first bit: adult choir rather than the original adult's choirs
I feel I should use the singular because I am talking about Scandinavian adult choir in general not about any particular choir or choirs
Also because my brain is probably doing a job on me because of choirs choir's etc.. a curse upon the apostrophe!
Thanks for the replies btw
posted by foleypt at 8:10 AM on October 20, 2013
I'd stick with the plural for "choirs" because you're not talking about one choir, as borne out by the fact that you immediately go on to single one out as an example.
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult choirs, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s choirs in the Nordic countries etc
seems fine to me.
posted by flabdablet at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult choirs, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s choirs in the Nordic countries etc
seems fine to me.
posted by flabdablet at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: DarlingBri how do you come by your knowledge of this? I agree with your judgement but I find it hard to justify.
If you're a native English speaker, then trust your judgment — especially if it agrees with the judgment of other native speakers. There is no logic to this sort of thing.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 10:01 AM on October 20, 2013
If you're a native English speaker, then trust your judgment — especially if it agrees with the judgment of other native speakers. There is no logic to this sort of thing.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 10:01 AM on October 20, 2013
I feel I should use the singular because I am talking about Scandinavian adult choir in general not about any particular choir or choirs
No, it is adult choirs because you are not speaking of an individual, singular choir but rather of a plurality of choirs in Scandinavia. "Choir" is singular and refers to a specific, defined vocal ensemble. "Choirs" is the generic plural. See Wikipedia for example usage.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:44 PM on October 20, 2013
No, it is adult choirs because you are not speaking of an individual, singular choir but rather of a plurality of choirs in Scandinavia. "Choir" is singular and refers to a specific, defined vocal ensemble. "Choirs" is the generic plural. See Wikipedia for example usage.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:44 PM on October 20, 2013
PS: If you want a model for correct usage, replace the term choir with vocal ensemble.
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult's vocal ensembles, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s vocal ensembles in the Nordic countries etc... is wrong.
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult vocal ensembles, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s vocal ensembles in the Nordic countries etc... is correct.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:50 PM on October 20, 2013
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult's vocal ensembles, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s vocal ensembles in the Nordic countries etc... is wrong.
The Scandinavian choral tradition started with adult vocal ensembles, of which Blah Blah Blah stood out. Afterwards there appeared several children’s vocal ensembles in the Nordic countries etc... is correct.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:50 PM on October 20, 2013
The bit I made in the singular is the first bit: adult choir rather than the original adult's choirs
"Adult's" with an apostrophe before the s is just possessive, not plural.
posted by jon1270 at 4:03 PM on October 20, 2013
"Adult's" with an apostrophe before the s is just possessive, not plural.
posted by jon1270 at 4:03 PM on October 20, 2013
Response by poster: Despite my ability to confuse myself with an apostrophe I do know the basics ;)
what I made singular in that case was choir
posted by foleypt at 4:15 PM on October 20, 2013
what I made singular in that case was choir
posted by foleypt at 4:15 PM on October 20, 2013
Despite my ability to confuse myself with an apostrophe I do know the basics ;)
Well, "adult's choir" would never be used at any rate; the parallel to "children's choir" is "adults' choir." Although I agree with posters above that "adult choir" is preferable anyway. Cygnet is right that the reason they're not exactly parallel is that adult is an adjective already and children is not, so you end up with children being converted to a possessive, while that's not necessary for adult.
I hear what you're saying about wanting to use "choir" singular in your example, if you are using it to describe a style of music rather than groups of singers (like saying something began with violin rather than with violinists). You could probably go either way on that. If your "Blah Blah Blah" is a specific choir, then you should probably use the plural; if BBB refers to a sound or technique or movement, the singular might make more sense. (I.e. "among these choirs, BBB stood out" versus "within this tradition, BBB stood out.")
posted by torticat at 5:23 AM on October 21, 2013
Well, "adult's choir" would never be used at any rate; the parallel to "children's choir" is "adults' choir." Although I agree with posters above that "adult choir" is preferable anyway. Cygnet is right that the reason they're not exactly parallel is that adult is an adjective already and children is not, so you end up with children being converted to a possessive, while that's not necessary for adult.
I hear what you're saying about wanting to use "choir" singular in your example, if you are using it to describe a style of music rather than groups of singers (like saying something began with violin rather than with violinists). You could probably go either way on that. If your "Blah Blah Blah" is a specific choir, then you should probably use the plural; if BBB refers to a sound or technique or movement, the singular might make more sense. (I.e. "among these choirs, BBB stood out" versus "within this tradition, BBB stood out.")
posted by torticat at 5:23 AM on October 21, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think the issue here is that "adult" can be used as an adjective to describe things that are for adults. "Adult beverage", for example. You wouldn't say "adult's beverage" because it would be unnecessary, but you might say "children's beverage" because "children beverage" is nonsensical since "children" cannot be used as an adjective.
posted by Cygnet at 7:23 AM on October 20, 2013