Should I take lessons from a classical singer if I want to sing folk?
October 18, 2013 4:41 AM Subscribe
I'm a violinist who wants to learn to sing folk/rock/blues. The problem isn't the notes, but technique: my range is limited and I just don't sound that good. Can I/should I take lessons from a classically trained tenor even though I don't want to sing opera/bel canto?
Oh, dear no. Take vocal lessons from someone who teaches jazz or pop vocal. They can teach you everything you need to know about vocal technique, breathing, etc., but they will also be much more familiar with working in the idioms you want to sing.
Really, there's nothing more painful than someone infusing blues or rock with too much classical flavoring. Yes, you need to learn technique, but you also need to learn stylistic conventions, and you need to learn how to growl and scream in ways that you aren't likely to get right from a classical singing teacher. Really, the technique you'd going to learn from a classical vocalist will really not translate well. The differences between these worlds are not surface differences alone.
posted by Miko at 6:00 AM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Really, there's nothing more painful than someone infusing blues or rock with too much classical flavoring. Yes, you need to learn technique, but you also need to learn stylistic conventions, and you need to learn how to growl and scream in ways that you aren't likely to get right from a classical singing teacher. Really, the technique you'd going to learn from a classical vocalist will really not translate well. The differences between these worlds are not surface differences alone.
posted by Miko at 6:00 AM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
First off:
Being classically trained in anything is awesome. Where I went to school (high school) I had the option of having private trombone instruction from a classical brass instructor, a jazz instructor, and a trombonist. At various points I went with all three. My friend that was a vocalist had one option, a former classically trained Opera singer. So the first question is, do you have any other options? If you don't have other options - then yes! Opera singer it is!
Will you learn something, Yes! Will it improve your vocal control and phrasing? Yes! Will you have Jazz or Folk phrasing? Probably not initially, but you will gain the control necessary to learn that when you are exposed (note: this does imply that you will want to move on at some point).
As such, if you are getting your vocal chops in shape - this is a perfect opportunity to do so. If this is your only option - this is a perfect opportunity. If you do have more options - you may want to investigate them further. At a minimum this may be a great opportunity to get a basic vocal foundation, but once you've got your breathing and chops and range and tone squared away - you may want to extend the net further...
OR, consider this: Just because you sing opera, doesn't mean you don't know a thing or two about Jazz. I took jazz trombone instruction from a symphonic trumpet player for many many years. What he was able to teach me about hitting certain notes, my breathing and otherwise how to be a solid player - allowed me to be a top trombonist in a very very challenging field of players at my high school.
As you've stated, you want to work on range and tonal quality at this time. That is stuff that is directly transferable across musical styles. In the long run, this will not be your final instructor, but it is probably a good start.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:43 AM on October 18, 2013
Being classically trained in anything is awesome. Where I went to school (high school) I had the option of having private trombone instruction from a classical brass instructor, a jazz instructor, and a trombonist. At various points I went with all three. My friend that was a vocalist had one option, a former classically trained Opera singer. So the first question is, do you have any other options? If you don't have other options - then yes! Opera singer it is!
Will you learn something, Yes! Will it improve your vocal control and phrasing? Yes! Will you have Jazz or Folk phrasing? Probably not initially, but you will gain the control necessary to learn that when you are exposed (note: this does imply that you will want to move on at some point).
As such, if you are getting your vocal chops in shape - this is a perfect opportunity to do so. If this is your only option - this is a perfect opportunity. If you do have more options - you may want to investigate them further. At a minimum this may be a great opportunity to get a basic vocal foundation, but once you've got your breathing and chops and range and tone squared away - you may want to extend the net further...
OR, consider this: Just because you sing opera, doesn't mean you don't know a thing or two about Jazz. I took jazz trombone instruction from a symphonic trumpet player for many many years. What he was able to teach me about hitting certain notes, my breathing and otherwise how to be a solid player - allowed me to be a top trombonist in a very very challenging field of players at my high school.
As you've stated, you want to work on range and tonal quality at this time. That is stuff that is directly transferable across musical styles. In the long run, this will not be your final instructor, but it is probably a good start.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:43 AM on October 18, 2013
It depends on your instructor and whether or not they understand/appreciate the style you want to sing in. My voice instructor was classically trained, but is also a big fan of folk and rock. He helped me with my technical fundamentals, but didn't try to impose an operatic approach on me.
posted by tdismukes at 7:01 AM on October 18, 2013
posted by tdismukes at 7:01 AM on October 18, 2013
Yes, you should take lessons from the classically-trained singer. The fact of the matter is that the vast, vast, vast majority of pop or rock or jazz so-called "voice teachers" don't know jack shit about the physiology of the voice instrument or how it works, and don't have the slightest idea of a systematic approach for acquiring and building the tools of healthy and functional singing. I used to rent practice rooms in a space where a lot of these people taught voice lessons. The bullcrap I heard coming out of their mouths, and the terrible things they were encouraging their students to do boggled the mind. If you are lucky to get one of the very few who actually knows what he is doing, that's great. But I wouldn't count on it.
Meanwhile, even if the classically-trained singer doesn't really know how the voice instrument works, he comes from a centuries old tradition that has evolved around what works most efficiently and healthfully. All you have to do is let him know that you don't want to sound like a wannabe classical singer (if this becomes an issue, find a different classically-trained teacher). When you work on songs, make sure that you work on the kinds of songs you want to sing. The teacher will adapt. But especially considering that you sound like you need some foundational voice-building to grow your range, discover where your most functional range lies, solidify your tone and acquire the basic tools for controlling your voice, you should work with someone who has actually been through this process himself and knows what he's talking about. Later on, once you have some of the basic tools for singing, then it might be worthwhile working with someone who could teach you some specifically pop/rock/jazz skills, such as microphone technique.
posted by slkinsey at 7:27 AM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, even if the classically-trained singer doesn't really know how the voice instrument works, he comes from a centuries old tradition that has evolved around what works most efficiently and healthfully. All you have to do is let him know that you don't want to sound like a wannabe classical singer (if this becomes an issue, find a different classically-trained teacher). When you work on songs, make sure that you work on the kinds of songs you want to sing. The teacher will adapt. But especially considering that you sound like you need some foundational voice-building to grow your range, discover where your most functional range lies, solidify your tone and acquire the basic tools for controlling your voice, you should work with someone who has actually been through this process himself and knows what he's talking about. Later on, once you have some of the basic tools for singing, then it might be worthwhile working with someone who could teach you some specifically pop/rock/jazz skills, such as microphone technique.
posted by slkinsey at 7:27 AM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The techniques a classical singer brings to the table will be incredibly helpful in folk or jazz. Think about voice leading and the way a song is constructed, or how breath control in long lines could help you gain confidence with the rat-a-tat phrasing of scat or patter lines.
The biggest issues I've had with crossing over from classical to more popular singing involve improvisation and the confidence of making a song my own. A good teacher, regardless of style, will recognize the strong and weak points in your voice and help you ac-cen-tu-ate the positive.
A strong foundation in technique and musicality will never, never steer you in the wrong direction. Personally, I think this would be a good start for you as someone coming from a classical tradition; you share the same building blocks and will ease gradually into new ideas.
posted by Madamina at 7:46 AM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The biggest issues I've had with crossing over from classical to more popular singing involve improvisation and the confidence of making a song my own. A good teacher, regardless of style, will recognize the strong and weak points in your voice and help you ac-cen-tu-ate the positive.
A strong foundation in technique and musicality will never, never steer you in the wrong direction. Personally, I think this would be a good start for you as someone coming from a classical tradition; you share the same building blocks and will ease gradually into new ideas.
posted by Madamina at 7:46 AM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes.
Barbershop singer here, who spent four years in college singing in Latin, English, and plenty of other languages.
You'll want to tailor your lessons to fit your needs. Basically, making the *right* kind of breathing automatic, having enough breath to sing the want you want, and otherwise giving you a good foundation. Classical training isn't just for classical music.
posted by chrisinseoul at 8:45 AM on October 18, 2013
Barbershop singer here, who spent four years in college singing in Latin, English, and plenty of other languages.
You'll want to tailor your lessons to fit your needs. Basically, making the *right* kind of breathing automatic, having enough breath to sing the want you want, and otherwise giving you a good foundation. Classical training isn't just for classical music.
posted by chrisinseoul at 8:45 AM on October 18, 2013
To be completely clear, a good jazz/pop singer will teach all of the foundations mentioned here as well, and with quite similar exercises and techniques. But they will be able to do so without the stylistic prejudices of those whose training is classical. It is a fallacy that pop/jazz vocal coaches don't teach the physiology and fundamentals of singing. Just be sure you are finding one that does.
You can't learn folk banjo by studying classical banjo. And you can't learn folk/rock/jazz vocal by studying classical vocals. I'm sorry to all those who think it is successful; some people can make the transition and apply their fundamentals appropriately, but more can't. Look for a teacher who actually has experience at and success in the kinds of genres you want to sing in, whether their own or their students'. They may or may not have been classically trained themselves, but unless they or their students can sing the way you want to sing, they won't be a good coach.
posted by Miko at 12:04 PM on October 18, 2013
You can't learn folk banjo by studying classical banjo. And you can't learn folk/rock/jazz vocal by studying classical vocals. I'm sorry to all those who think it is successful; some people can make the transition and apply their fundamentals appropriately, but more can't. Look for a teacher who actually has experience at and success in the kinds of genres you want to sing in, whether their own or their students'. They may or may not have been classically trained themselves, but unless they or their students can sing the way you want to sing, they won't be a good coach.
posted by Miko at 12:04 PM on October 18, 2013
(I don't think there is even classical banjo, but you know what I'm saying).
posted by Miko at 12:17 PM on October 18, 2013
posted by Miko at 12:17 PM on October 18, 2013
Miko is right on here, I think. I strongly disagree with the idea that classical training is somehow unmarked, pure technique that is easily transferable. Or, to use another comparable example, broadway-style musical theater. The blues-y number in the musical theater production more often than not just feels stylistically off because the bends, blue notes and timbral distortion weren't a daily priority until learning that particular tune.
This is an extreme example, but it is interesting to look at how Melissa Cross works. She is one of the foremost metal and hardcore vocal coaches. She is classically trained, but was also a rock singer, and has changed her exercises significantly in order work with her students.
Oh, and my mom plays Bach two-part inventions on the banjo, along with her clawhammer tunes!
posted by umbú at 12:56 PM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is an extreme example, but it is interesting to look at how Melissa Cross works. She is one of the foremost metal and hardcore vocal coaches. She is classically trained, but was also a rock singer, and has changed her exercises significantly in order work with her students.
Oh, and my mom plays Bach two-part inventions on the banjo, along with her clawhammer tunes!
posted by umbú at 12:56 PM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Go with the classically trained voice teacher. As long as you take a careful and respectful approach to the style of folk music you want to eventually work with, classical voice will not hurt your "authenticity." But classical vocal training is very well informed with a long history, so you can expect results that you can apply later to folk styles. I rarely suggest classical training to folk instrumentalists, but the voice is different.
posted by zaelic at 2:01 AM on October 19, 2013
posted by zaelic at 2:01 AM on October 19, 2013
you can expect results that you can apply later to folk styles
No, you can't! You really can't. Folk styles are not just "styles," they are entire aesthetics systems of their own, not just some "easier" thing that you can just import classical vocal styling into. That idea is the kiss of death in trying to pass in folk and other vernacular genres (jazz, rock), and it's rooted in this concept that privileges the Western academic tradition over those more vernacular traditions, even though their aesthetics are every bit as rigorous, nuanced, and telling.
Sorry, folks. I have a lot of expertise in folk musical styles. We spend a lot of time untraining people for things that are deeply stylistically inappropriate to this genre, and are immediate signs of rookie/naif status in this realm. Almost invariably, that poor training comes from either classical or stage conventions.
One thing to be aware of is that there are many people who think they are successful in folk/pop/jazz styles after being trained in classical style. But they are not truly successful. It's something we weed out early and often in selecting performers for festivals or events, or determining who receives support and who doesn't. There is a lot of disciplinary bias in what you hear from people who've had classical vocal training; remember, that stuff is internal to their discipline, and not necessarily true outside of their discipline. As I said, good fundamentals are good fundamentals - but it's actually not all that easy to separate classical styling from fundamentals, so you're going to have to unlearn as much as you learn from a classical teacher. Unless your goal is to sound like Judy Collins, in which case, disregard everything I said.
Team Classical is right in that you need vocal fundamentals. Team Classical is wrong in that you can only learn those things from classical-only teachers without also inadvertently picking up prejudices and misplaced aesthetics that will not serve you well in vernacular musical forms with their ownn equally sophisticated but less academic aesthetics. Remember to have long serious discussions with potential teachers about their foundations - what they'll teach you about physiology, support, range, tone, etc. Don't study with a hack. But don't expect that a signboard hanging outside reading "classical" will be something that can train you to represent, with appropriate sensibilities, a centuries-old or well-established folk or vernacular tradition.
Slate: The Canard of Classical Training.
posted by Miko at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
No, you can't! You really can't. Folk styles are not just "styles," they are entire aesthetics systems of their own, not just some "easier" thing that you can just import classical vocal styling into. That idea is the kiss of death in trying to pass in folk and other vernacular genres (jazz, rock), and it's rooted in this concept that privileges the Western academic tradition over those more vernacular traditions, even though their aesthetics are every bit as rigorous, nuanced, and telling.
Sorry, folks. I have a lot of expertise in folk musical styles. We spend a lot of time untraining people for things that are deeply stylistically inappropriate to this genre, and are immediate signs of rookie/naif status in this realm. Almost invariably, that poor training comes from either classical or stage conventions.
One thing to be aware of is that there are many people who think they are successful in folk/pop/jazz styles after being trained in classical style. But they are not truly successful. It's something we weed out early and often in selecting performers for festivals or events, or determining who receives support and who doesn't. There is a lot of disciplinary bias in what you hear from people who've had classical vocal training; remember, that stuff is internal to their discipline, and not necessarily true outside of their discipline. As I said, good fundamentals are good fundamentals - but it's actually not all that easy to separate classical styling from fundamentals, so you're going to have to unlearn as much as you learn from a classical teacher. Unless your goal is to sound like Judy Collins, in which case, disregard everything I said.
Team Classical is right in that you need vocal fundamentals. Team Classical is wrong in that you can only learn those things from classical-only teachers without also inadvertently picking up prejudices and misplaced aesthetics that will not serve you well in vernacular musical forms with their ownn equally sophisticated but less academic aesthetics. Remember to have long serious discussions with potential teachers about their foundations - what they'll teach you about physiology, support, range, tone, etc. Don't study with a hack. But don't expect that a signboard hanging outside reading "classical" will be something that can train you to represent, with appropriate sensibilities, a centuries-old or well-established folk or vernacular tradition.
Slate: The Canard of Classical Training.
posted by Miko at 8:00 PM on October 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
« Older Help me pick an entree for a curry dinner | complications from being sedentary in brisk fall... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
Classical singer here. You're a beginning adult singer, so Mr. Tenor would teach you things like breathing, breath control, your relationship to your body, warming up and how to stretch/get the most out of your range. Those things are pretty universal.
Also, as a violinist (I'm a former cellist) you will have a HUGE advantage in the musicality you bring to the table. Your understanding of line and phrasing will serve you beautifully.
There's actually much more of a folk/classical crossover than you might think, although much of it gets obscured by style. Look at things like the Child Ballads, songs by people like John Jacob Niles or Ralph Vaughan Williams, all that. Composers like Bartok and Brahms were known for their folk music origins, even though they may all sound like lieder to someone who doesn't know the material that well.
Most teachers will allow you a free lesson to see if you're a good fit together. Ask him what kinds of pop music he likes, share some of your favorite songs, all that.
posted by Madamina at 5:14 AM on October 18, 2013 [1 favorite]