How can I best learn from critiques of my short stories?
October 17, 2013 11:09 AM Subscribe
I've been having my short stories critiqued by various people (some from literary magazines) and I've gotten lots of different advice that is all over the place and at times contradictory. As someone who wants to improve my writing, I must admit I am kind of confused by the suggestions I've been getting.
What makes it a bit complicated is that these suggestions are often based on the person's taste and aesthetic sensibilities. That is they each have a vision of their own of what the story should be like, and this vision differs from person to person. That's why I am a bit puzzled. If I want to improve as a writer, whose advice should I choose to follow?
What makes it a bit complicated is that these suggestions are often based on the person's taste and aesthetic sensibilities. That is they each have a vision of their own of what the story should be like, and this vision differs from person to person. That's why I am a bit puzzled. If I want to improve as a writer, whose advice should I choose to follow?
I'm not a writer, but throughout the art school process I've sure gone through a lot of critiquing process, and you've sort of figured out the pinch of salt in critiques. they'll always be based on someone else's opinion.
here's what I think though, if you're a pretty good writer/artist/anything, then you'll have pretty good taste. you'll read/hear the critiques, and some of them you'll agree with, as long as you're not getting defensive and offended. and if you hear a critique and you think "yeah, that COULD use some work" then work on it.
also be aware of things that come up again and again. if you think your characters are great but you keep receiving crits that say otherwise, then eventually you need to look clearly at that too.
posted by euphoria066 at 11:29 AM on October 17, 2013
here's what I think though, if you're a pretty good writer/artist/anything, then you'll have pretty good taste. you'll read/hear the critiques, and some of them you'll agree with, as long as you're not getting defensive and offended. and if you hear a critique and you think "yeah, that COULD use some work" then work on it.
also be aware of things that come up again and again. if you think your characters are great but you keep receiving crits that say otherwise, then eventually you need to look clearly at that too.
posted by euphoria066 at 11:29 AM on October 17, 2013
If I want to improve as a writer, whose advice should I choose to follow?
Yours.
Ultimately, you know the story you want to tell. When someone gives you advice, they are indeed influenced by their own tastes - but some of their advice will indeed help you tell the story you want to tell, and some won't.
For instance - say you want to tell the story of a man who beats up his old bully at their high school reunion. Two people give you critique on it, and they both say that they didn't quite believe the ending. But one of them is saying "there are too many stories where people punch out their bullies and get revenge and it's more unique to have them reconcile" or whatever, while the other one is saying something like "I didn't quite believe he'd punch out the bully because I didn't get the sense that he was angry enough to do that."
Now, maybe it's true that having them reconcile would be "more original" or whatever. But that's not the story you want to tell, you want to tell the story where the guy does beat him up. However - the other guy saying "he didn't seem angry enough to want to beat him up," that is something you can work with.
Keep the story in mind that you want to tell, and listen for the people who are giving you advice that will help you tell that specific story better. You'll get people who give you advice that would result in changing your story altogether - them, you can just nod and smile. But the ones whose advice you realize would help you tell your story better, them, you can listen to.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:31 AM on October 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
Yours.
Ultimately, you know the story you want to tell. When someone gives you advice, they are indeed influenced by their own tastes - but some of their advice will indeed help you tell the story you want to tell, and some won't.
For instance - say you want to tell the story of a man who beats up his old bully at their high school reunion. Two people give you critique on it, and they both say that they didn't quite believe the ending. But one of them is saying "there are too many stories where people punch out their bullies and get revenge and it's more unique to have them reconcile" or whatever, while the other one is saying something like "I didn't quite believe he'd punch out the bully because I didn't get the sense that he was angry enough to do that."
Now, maybe it's true that having them reconcile would be "more original" or whatever. But that's not the story you want to tell, you want to tell the story where the guy does beat him up. However - the other guy saying "he didn't seem angry enough to want to beat him up," that is something you can work with.
Keep the story in mind that you want to tell, and listen for the people who are giving you advice that will help you tell that specific story better. You'll get people who give you advice that would result in changing your story altogether - them, you can just nod and smile. But the ones whose advice you realize would help you tell your story better, them, you can listen to.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:31 AM on October 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
Feel free to disregard any advice that you don't get from multiple people. There's some slogan I can never remember that goes something like, "If someone calls you a donkey, they might be a jackass. If ten people call you a donkey, get a saddle." I'm sure that's not it but you get the point.
Also, disregard any advice that seems mean-spirited or not in the spirit of genuinely helping you improve. "Brutal honesty" is bullshit. People who want to help will be honest but polite, because they want their advice to be heard more than they want the thrill of tearing someone down.
You have my permission to disregard anyone who breaks either of these rules, no matter how well-respected or skilled as a writer they may personally be. Some of my best critiques have come from people who were poor writers, or not writers at all. Writing and helping others write are very different skills.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:32 AM on October 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
Also, disregard any advice that seems mean-spirited or not in the spirit of genuinely helping you improve. "Brutal honesty" is bullshit. People who want to help will be honest but polite, because they want their advice to be heard more than they want the thrill of tearing someone down.
You have my permission to disregard anyone who breaks either of these rules, no matter how well-respected or skilled as a writer they may personally be. Some of my best critiques have come from people who were poor writers, or not writers at all. Writing and helping others write are very different skills.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:32 AM on October 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
Fictional writing is an art form. Like any art form, there really is no single correct way to do it, and going against the grain creatively and taking risks is all a part of the process of finding your own style.
If you are going to take critiques, do so from only those who's work you respect and admire. Take into consideration what they say, apply anything you find helpful, and discard the rest.
posted by tenaciousmoon at 11:32 AM on October 17, 2013
If you are going to take critiques, do so from only those who's work you respect and admire. Take into consideration what they say, apply anything you find helpful, and discard the rest.
posted by tenaciousmoon at 11:32 AM on October 17, 2013
Incidentally, I just wanted to let you know this is something every artist, regardless of level of success, struggles with throughout his or her career.
To be an artist means you need a strong, unwavering faith in your personal vision. But you also need to be open to input from outsiders who can see things you can't, because you're too close.
We've all seen successful, talented people who go down terrible paths artistically because they've become so big everyone is afraid to tell them "no." And on the flipside, we've all seen young artists who never get anywhere because they insist they're right and the rest of the world is wrong. It's incredibly difficult to balance the two sides.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:37 AM on October 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
To be an artist means you need a strong, unwavering faith in your personal vision. But you also need to be open to input from outsiders who can see things you can't, because you're too close.
We've all seen successful, talented people who go down terrible paths artistically because they've become so big everyone is afraid to tell them "no." And on the flipside, we've all seen young artists who never get anywhere because they insist they're right and the rest of the world is wrong. It's incredibly difficult to balance the two sides.
posted by drjimmy11 at 11:37 AM on October 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
If a criticism comes in and you immediately say "of course, why didn't I notice that," you should obviously heed it.
If a criticism comes in and you immediately say "did you even read the story?" you can probably disregard it.
If a criticism comes in and you immediately say "HOW DARE YOU!" you should sit on it for a few days, because it might be tripe or it might be the best advice you have ever gotten and you won't know until you have a calmer frame of mind.
When advice conflicts, you know you have identified different reader types. So, reread their critiques, and review everything you know about them, and figure out which of the two is your audience.
posted by 256 at 11:39 AM on October 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
If a criticism comes in and you immediately say "did you even read the story?" you can probably disregard it.
If a criticism comes in and you immediately say "HOW DARE YOU!" you should sit on it for a few days, because it might be tripe or it might be the best advice you have ever gotten and you won't know until you have a calmer frame of mind.
When advice conflicts, you know you have identified different reader types. So, reread their critiques, and review everything you know about them, and figure out which of the two is your audience.
posted by 256 at 11:39 AM on October 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
One way in which seemingly contradictory advice can be all more or less good advice is if they're giving examples of broader concepts, and different people are choosing different examples for similar concepts. person A says 'More of this, less of that' but person B says 'less of this, more of that'. Possibly you've got a middle-of-the-road thing that needs more of something, and it's really up to you to say more of what. In a cooking analogy, your salsa needs either more peppers OR more mango OR more cilantro, depending on which direction you want to take it, but everyone's agreed that it could make a bolder statement.
So look at your various pieces of advice, disregard most statements from people whose work you're not trying to emulate or whose tastes you're not trying to please. Then filter out the commonalities. Some will be obvious agreement. Others will be contradictory, but maybe they're lots of conflicting opinions that all suggest different ways to change one character, and they're all trying to tell you the character's being unbelievable or inconsistent.
Or maybe not. Who's to know? The most you can do is try to learn something from their advice, and maybe they're not as helpful as they thought.
posted by aimedwander at 11:45 AM on October 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
So look at your various pieces of advice, disregard most statements from people whose work you're not trying to emulate or whose tastes you're not trying to please. Then filter out the commonalities. Some will be obvious agreement. Others will be contradictory, but maybe they're lots of conflicting opinions that all suggest different ways to change one character, and they're all trying to tell you the character's being unbelievable or inconsistent.
Or maybe not. Who's to know? The most you can do is try to learn something from their advice, and maybe they're not as helpful as they thought.
posted by aimedwander at 11:45 AM on October 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
One thing you could try as an exercise is modifying a piece 100% toward one person's sensibilities, then 100% toward another, and sit down and think about how difficult the two approaches were for you, how rewarding you think they were in terms of improvements to the final product, and whether you think you'd ever like to try that style again, or in what contexts that technique might be helpful.
posted by aimedwander at 11:46 AM on October 17, 2013
posted by aimedwander at 11:46 AM on October 17, 2013
You know you have a good critique when you think "Yeah! That person knows what I'm trying to do, maybe even better than I know it myself!" -- and when you think "Augh, I'm going to have to rewrite this whole thing, I'm going to have to combine two characters together, I'm going to have to change it to first person, but I'm actually kind of excited about putting in the work to make it better!"
The critique that makes you think "Yeah, I guess I COULD do that, but I'm not sure if it's really the story I want to write, I'm not sure if I'm really on the same page as them with where the story is supposed to go".... disregard it unless someone's offering you money. And maybe even then.
If you don't have a clear enough vision to have a firm conviction, then you have to think through what it would mean do to it one way, and what it would mean to do it the other way, and sometimes if you think it through hard enough you come to a solution that's different but better than your critiques suggested. Or you think through it until you get to a point where you learn something about the story that you're trying to write, and you get a new perspective on it as you rewrite it.
But often it just comes down to a very small gut feeling about what goes "ping" and what goes "twang" when you try to harmonize it with the story you've written.
posted by Jeanne at 11:48 AM on October 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
The critique that makes you think "Yeah, I guess I COULD do that, but I'm not sure if it's really the story I want to write, I'm not sure if I'm really on the same page as them with where the story is supposed to go".... disregard it unless someone's offering you money. And maybe even then.
If you don't have a clear enough vision to have a firm conviction, then you have to think through what it would mean do to it one way, and what it would mean to do it the other way, and sometimes if you think it through hard enough you come to a solution that's different but better than your critiques suggested. Or you think through it until you get to a point where you learn something about the story that you're trying to write, and you get a new perspective on it as you rewrite it.
But often it just comes down to a very small gut feeling about what goes "ping" and what goes "twang" when you try to harmonize it with the story you've written.
posted by Jeanne at 11:48 AM on October 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Neil Gaiman: “Remember: when people tell you something doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.”
I think the problem with a lot of writing groups is that people read in a very unnatural way: when you pick up a book at the library, you don't think "What is the author trying to do here? How could it be better?" You either think, "Yes! I like this!" or you think some variation of "Eh, this isn't working for me; I'm skeptical/confused/bored." Getting a "critique" can put my back up in an unhelpful way because I'm like "Why do you think you know so much more about this than me; it is my precious baby and I spent months working on this section and you probably skimmed it in ten minutes; if you don't 'get' a section, maybe you should go back and read harder!"
But if I think about my critique partners as library patrons who are picking up the book in good faith, then their reactions, even if they're harsh, are motivating to me - if this section bores you, then it's my responsibility to fix it, because I'm in charge of creating a particular reading experience for you, and if that doesn't happen, I've failed, end of story. Of course, you can't please everyone all of the time, but you do - I think - want most people who pick up the book to want to keep reading, and to feel satisfied. I have ideal readers, but I don't have any potential readers whose responses are entirely irrelevant to me.
When I had a bunch of people read my novel manuscript, I invented a whole editing system that was meant to elicit their reactions, instead of their critiques. So a mark for "bored," a mark for "confused," a mark for "skeptical" a mark for "excited," etc. My theory was that people might not give good advice, but they are the absolute authorities on their own experiences of the text. Sometimes, especially when you're talking to people who've spent a lot of time in a workshop environment, you might have to read between the lines to discover the experience they're describing to you, but it's almost always present and useful in one way or another.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 12:01 PM on October 17, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think the problem with a lot of writing groups is that people read in a very unnatural way: when you pick up a book at the library, you don't think "What is the author trying to do here? How could it be better?" You either think, "Yes! I like this!" or you think some variation of "Eh, this isn't working for me; I'm skeptical/confused/bored." Getting a "critique" can put my back up in an unhelpful way because I'm like "Why do you think you know so much more about this than me; it is my precious baby and I spent months working on this section and you probably skimmed it in ten minutes; if you don't 'get' a section, maybe you should go back and read harder!"
But if I think about my critique partners as library patrons who are picking up the book in good faith, then their reactions, even if they're harsh, are motivating to me - if this section bores you, then it's my responsibility to fix it, because I'm in charge of creating a particular reading experience for you, and if that doesn't happen, I've failed, end of story. Of course, you can't please everyone all of the time, but you do - I think - want most people who pick up the book to want to keep reading, and to feel satisfied. I have ideal readers, but I don't have any potential readers whose responses are entirely irrelevant to me.
When I had a bunch of people read my novel manuscript, I invented a whole editing system that was meant to elicit their reactions, instead of their critiques. So a mark for "bored," a mark for "confused," a mark for "skeptical" a mark for "excited," etc. My theory was that people might not give good advice, but they are the absolute authorities on their own experiences of the text. Sometimes, especially when you're talking to people who've spent a lot of time in a workshop environment, you might have to read between the lines to discover the experience they're describing to you, but it's almost always present and useful in one way or another.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 12:01 PM on October 17, 2013 [8 favorites]
What makes it a bit complicated is that these suggestions are often based on the person's taste and aesthetic sensibilities.
That makes it much less complicated. Someone giving you advice based only on their aesthetic sensibilities is giving you advice which, if followed, will only help you write like they do.
Case in point: When friends want me to critique their stuff, I tell them up-front not to bother if it contains vampires. That has nothing to do with the quality of their writing. It's a blind spot of my own.
The suggestions you should be listening to are:
Suggestions which multiple people have in common. If more than one person tells you to cool it with the adjectives, you should listen to that.
Suggestions which have more to do with structure than style. "You should spend more time describing her shoes" is a stylistic suggestion. "You described how she puts her shoes on, but ten pages ago you cut off both her legs" is structural.
Especially, you should be listening to feedback which multiple people give you and which your brain is trying to discount. If more than one person says they don't find a particular character likable, but it's your favorite character and you can't imagine cutting it, that's a sign that you should cut it.
If you get any writing feedback from the kind of person who goes on about how their characters talk to them, or how they get into arguments with their characters, or how their characters surprise them or won't cooperate, you can safely disregard anything that person tells you, unless of course several other people have also told you the same thing.
One final thing to consider: Publications will mostly critique your writing in terms of its suitability for inclusion in that specific publication. This is something writers run into a lot: An editor rejecting a book is not doing so because the book is bad, necessarily (although it might be); they're doing it because their publication has specific guidelines, so most of their feedback will only help you get into their magazine. In a larger sense, it may or may not be helpful.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:40 PM on October 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
That makes it much less complicated. Someone giving you advice based only on their aesthetic sensibilities is giving you advice which, if followed, will only help you write like they do.
Case in point: When friends want me to critique their stuff, I tell them up-front not to bother if it contains vampires. That has nothing to do with the quality of their writing. It's a blind spot of my own.
The suggestions you should be listening to are:
Suggestions which multiple people have in common. If more than one person tells you to cool it with the adjectives, you should listen to that.
Suggestions which have more to do with structure than style. "You should spend more time describing her shoes" is a stylistic suggestion. "You described how she puts her shoes on, but ten pages ago you cut off both her legs" is structural.
Especially, you should be listening to feedback which multiple people give you and which your brain is trying to discount. If more than one person says they don't find a particular character likable, but it's your favorite character and you can't imagine cutting it, that's a sign that you should cut it.
If you get any writing feedback from the kind of person who goes on about how their characters talk to them, or how they get into arguments with their characters, or how their characters surprise them or won't cooperate, you can safely disregard anything that person tells you, unless of course several other people have also told you the same thing.
One final thing to consider: Publications will mostly critique your writing in terms of its suitability for inclusion in that specific publication. This is something writers run into a lot: An editor rejecting a book is not doing so because the book is bad, necessarily (although it might be); they're doing it because their publication has specific guidelines, so most of their feedback will only help you get into their magazine. In a larger sense, it may or may not be helpful.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:40 PM on October 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you have to do a bit of work here in interpreting the criticisms as a whole. You might be getting a range of advice as to how to fix it (not so helpful) but you are also getting a common thread- there is something that isn't working. See if there is a pattern in what they don't like and work out, for yourself, how to fix it. This is your problem to solve, not theirs, so seeing their advice/feedback as useless because it doesn't rewrite the piece for you is short sighted.
Yon can go the other route that other posters have said, quoting great writers who stood their ground. However, it is more likely that you actually just need to fix something. Statistically speaking. So work out what that is.
posted by jojobobo at 1:47 PM on October 17, 2013
Yon can go the other route that other posters have said, quoting great writers who stood their ground. However, it is more likely that you actually just need to fix something. Statistically speaking. So work out what that is.
posted by jojobobo at 1:47 PM on October 17, 2013
A suggestion of process:
-Write the story.
-Solicit a single critique from a good writer, from an enthusiastic reader of catholic tastes, or from a sworn enemy.
-Read the critique.
-Read the story.
-Consider the critique with unhurried calm.
-Lock the critique and your initial draft in a drawer.
-Do a bit of exercise or yard work.
-Make the best single cup of tea, coffee, or cocoa your powers allow.
-Sit down, sip from the cup, and write the story again.
Repeat. Sometimes you may omit a step or two, so long as it's not the drawer or the writing. You're done when you know you're done, or when you've run out of coffee.
posted by Iridic at 2:04 PM on October 17, 2013
-Write the story.
-Solicit a single critique from a good writer, from an enthusiastic reader of catholic tastes, or from a sworn enemy.
-Read the critique.
-Read the story.
-Consider the critique with unhurried calm.
-Lock the critique and your initial draft in a drawer.
-Do a bit of exercise or yard work.
-Make the best single cup of tea, coffee, or cocoa your powers allow.
-Sit down, sip from the cup, and write the story again.
Repeat. Sometimes you may omit a step or two, so long as it's not the drawer or the writing. You're done when you know you're done, or when you've run out of coffee.
posted by Iridic at 2:04 PM on October 17, 2013
If you get the same thing from several people pay attention
If it's something that rings true to you then take it on board
Though the only real critique is the person who says yeah or nay to publication
Other than that the best critique is the bottom draw... time (and experience) will let you see the faults
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:12 PM on October 17, 2013
If it's something that rings true to you then take it on board
Though the only real critique is the person who says yeah or nay to publication
Other than that the best critique is the bottom draw... time (and experience) will let you see the faults
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 2:12 PM on October 17, 2013
Excellent advice here.
I'd maybe just add there there are tiers of critique, and as you climb them the applicability of the critique to your own work can become more tenuous.
At the bottom tier are things like grammar, fluency, overuse of adverbs, telling rather than showing.
At the top tier are things like theme, nuance, character, flow.
The critiques that are at the low end should probably be taken much more unquestioningly than the ones at the top end. But regardless, assume that every critique is right unless you're sure it's wrong. Because the process of deciding that you're sure can be a very valuable one for your piece.
I write flash fiction in a fairly bare-knuckles thread on Somethingawful. In 18 months of writing and reading hundreds of critiques, the number of times I think someone else's crit has Gotten It Wrong is a bare handful.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:59 PM on October 17, 2013
I'd maybe just add there there are tiers of critique, and as you climb them the applicability of the critique to your own work can become more tenuous.
At the bottom tier are things like grammar, fluency, overuse of adverbs, telling rather than showing.
At the top tier are things like theme, nuance, character, flow.
The critiques that are at the low end should probably be taken much more unquestioningly than the ones at the top end. But regardless, assume that every critique is right unless you're sure it's wrong. Because the process of deciding that you're sure can be a very valuable one for your piece.
I write flash fiction in a fairly bare-knuckles thread on Somethingawful. In 18 months of writing and reading hundreds of critiques, the number of times I think someone else's crit has Gotten It Wrong is a bare handful.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:59 PM on October 17, 2013
I read a interview of some wonderful young National Book Award winning author, who said that they felt the process used in lots of MFA programs, which they called fiction writing by council, is pretty much a sham and that the opinion of the committee isn't destined to end in good writing. Which is why a lot of great young writers frequently come from elsewhere than MFA programs I think.
You could trust your gut and vision for your work and edit yourself. I think lots of great writers are auteurs in this sense and don't really give a rat's ass what the community thinks.
posted by mermily at 4:38 PM on October 17, 2013
You could trust your gut and vision for your work and edit yourself. I think lots of great writers are auteurs in this sense and don't really give a rat's ass what the community thinks.
posted by mermily at 4:38 PM on October 17, 2013
Response by poster: Just some more background information: One of the issues that comes up repeatedly in critiques is genre confusion. I think my writing is a hybrid form of poetry and prose and the suggestions I often get either envision me bringing it more in line with the conventions of storytelling or, in the totally opposite direction, moving away from narrative/story towards towards something that is clearly and unambiguously poetry. I think that's because the hybrid form is a bit unconventional and confusing to many although it is definitely not new and has already been used by many authors.
posted by gregb1007 at 7:22 PM on October 17, 2013
posted by gregb1007 at 7:22 PM on October 17, 2013
I think you have to gauge for yourself whether each of these people understand what you are trying to do. If they don't seem to, listen to what they have to say but don't give their comments much weight.
posted by baseballpajamas at 7:38 PM on October 17, 2013
posted by baseballpajamas at 7:38 PM on October 17, 2013
Gregb10007 - right, so, that's exactly my point. The responses you're quoting are not contradictory at all. It's just two separate ways of telling you the same thing: that the storytelling aspect (the narrative) isn't working for people. They have different ideas of what to do better (either pump up the plot or get rid of it altogether) but they're having exactly the same reaction to the text, which is that they're not carried along by the story.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 8:14 PM on October 17, 2013
posted by pretentious illiterate at 8:14 PM on October 17, 2013
Response by poster: pretentious illiterate, I think the one aspect common to all the critiques was the feeling that the narrative as a whole was choppy and that the separate parts of the story didn't cohere well. However, they would disagree at which points the narrative was weak. For example, if we take the same paragraph of the story, one person would say that it doesn't work for them, another person would really like it. I have already edited and will continue to further edit the story, but I am still not sure whose advice is the most worth taking.
posted by gregb1007 at 11:36 PM on October 17, 2013
posted by gregb1007 at 11:36 PM on October 17, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by baseballpajamas at 11:27 AM on October 17, 2013 [2 favorites]