Should we stop being annoying neighbors?
October 3, 2013 6:35 PM Subscribe
Is hanging laundry in the front yard inconsiderate? How about children playing in the front yard? How about kids leaving their toys in the front yard?
We moved to a new house last year in a neighborhood where we new several of the neighbors before we moved in and were absolutely thrilled to have found it. It has an acre of land, the last house on the block on this side at least. And everything was great for most of the first years... or so we thought. When we put up a clothesline in the front yard, a neighbor two doors down asked us to take it down. Well, we didn't. I brought them a bottle of wine and said that with a baby running around, this was really the best place for it for our family at this time. And they took this well.
Our neighbor across the street said that she had thought that this was a very strange request from those neighbors and that it had made her feel weird about the whole neighborhood.
And now we get to the part that I am most confused about. The neighbor across the street had been very friendly, to the point of taking my kids with her to walk her dog on a regular basis. We looked after her cats when she went away and we asked her to take care of our cat when we went away. When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY. And she had a point. She thought that we didn't have a litter box - which we did in the garage accessible via cat door and the cat did use it. It wasn't until two months later that she said she was very disturbed by it and has a job where she has to report this kind of thing and that we put her in a really awkward position. She treats her pets like family. She had been cold to us for the past couple of month but it wasn't terribly noticeable, we are all pretty busy. Bu I thanked her for telling me and went on my way.
My wife sent her a note explaining that we a busy and children take priority and such. I didn't read the note. And today we got a letter that both criticized us for not teaching our children to put their toys away (yeah, it's true. not a big priority.) but saying that it is wonderful that they are not inside watching TV. "But can't you use your back and side yards/" she feels like she is under obligation to be an audience and that she doesn't want to "run the gauntlet through all of us" every time she comes and goes. "I can't get into or out of my house with out their attention." "I've noticed that some parents assume everyone is as enchanted with their children as they are - and put them in the middle of every occasion so that they can be maximally admired." She wants us to move the play equipment to the back and side yards. She suggests that we put up a fence.
I presume that if two people are complaining about the same aspect of my life, I probably have something to do with it. But, I live in a detached house a good fifty yards away from this lady. True, we can see her car in her driveway and she does have to drive past our house to get in and out and my six year olds and one year old do look at every car that comes our way. We do have monkey bars and a swing set in the front yard under the big shade tree. Yep, kids are riding bikes and tricycles all day long. We have a picnic table under the shade tree too and eat lunch out there most days and dinners some nights too. We like to watch the sunset.
So it is just awkward as hell. I don't know what to tell my kids. "Don't go over to the neighbors house anymore?" - which they haven't in months - kids are sensitive. They didn't feel welcome. Don't look at her car? Don't wave? That's ridiculous. One year old's are just learning how to wave. It is exciting for them.
So how should I respond? Should I respond? Where is the boundary? Should I be concerned that she is going to report me to someone? Who? Your thoughts and ideas are appreciated, O wise metafilterites.
We moved to a new house last year in a neighborhood where we new several of the neighbors before we moved in and were absolutely thrilled to have found it. It has an acre of land, the last house on the block on this side at least. And everything was great for most of the first years... or so we thought. When we put up a clothesline in the front yard, a neighbor two doors down asked us to take it down. Well, we didn't. I brought them a bottle of wine and said that with a baby running around, this was really the best place for it for our family at this time. And they took this well.
Our neighbor across the street said that she had thought that this was a very strange request from those neighbors and that it had made her feel weird about the whole neighborhood.
And now we get to the part that I am most confused about. The neighbor across the street had been very friendly, to the point of taking my kids with her to walk her dog on a regular basis. We looked after her cats when she went away and we asked her to take care of our cat when we went away. When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY. And she had a point. She thought that we didn't have a litter box - which we did in the garage accessible via cat door and the cat did use it. It wasn't until two months later that she said she was very disturbed by it and has a job where she has to report this kind of thing and that we put her in a really awkward position. She treats her pets like family. She had been cold to us for the past couple of month but it wasn't terribly noticeable, we are all pretty busy. Bu I thanked her for telling me and went on my way.
My wife sent her a note explaining that we a busy and children take priority and such. I didn't read the note. And today we got a letter that both criticized us for not teaching our children to put their toys away (yeah, it's true. not a big priority.) but saying that it is wonderful that they are not inside watching TV. "But can't you use your back and side yards/" she feels like she is under obligation to be an audience and that she doesn't want to "run the gauntlet through all of us" every time she comes and goes. "I can't get into or out of my house with out their attention." "I've noticed that some parents assume everyone is as enchanted with their children as they are - and put them in the middle of every occasion so that they can be maximally admired." She wants us to move the play equipment to the back and side yards. She suggests that we put up a fence.
I presume that if two people are complaining about the same aspect of my life, I probably have something to do with it. But, I live in a detached house a good fifty yards away from this lady. True, we can see her car in her driveway and she does have to drive past our house to get in and out and my six year olds and one year old do look at every car that comes our way. We do have monkey bars and a swing set in the front yard under the big shade tree. Yep, kids are riding bikes and tricycles all day long. We have a picnic table under the shade tree too and eat lunch out there most days and dinners some nights too. We like to watch the sunset.
So it is just awkward as hell. I don't know what to tell my kids. "Don't go over to the neighbors house anymore?" - which they haven't in months - kids are sensitive. They didn't feel welcome. Don't look at her car? Don't wave? That's ridiculous. One year old's are just learning how to wave. It is exciting for them.
So how should I respond? Should I respond? Where is the boundary? Should I be concerned that she is going to report me to someone? Who? Your thoughts and ideas are appreciated, O wise metafilterites.
I don't know what to tell my kids. "Don't go over to the neighbors house anymore?" - which they haven't in months - kids are sensitive.
It is appropriate for a neighbor to not want your kids on their property. This is part of respecting private property, and it's a good chance to teach your kids that. They are not necessarily welcome in any neighborhood, and that's a life lesson.
She wants us to move the play equipment to the back and side yards. She suggests that we put up a fence.
That said, as part of your property rights, you have every right to ignore her on these requests.
Should I respond?
Nope, it won't make anything better.
posted by saeculorum at 6:44 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
It is appropriate for a neighbor to not want your kids on their property. This is part of respecting private property, and it's a good chance to teach your kids that. They are not necessarily welcome in any neighborhood, and that's a life lesson.
She wants us to move the play equipment to the back and side yards. She suggests that we put up a fence.
That said, as part of your property rights, you have every right to ignore her on these requests.
Should I respond?
Nope, it won't make anything better.
posted by saeculorum at 6:44 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Don't catsit her cats any more. Don't ask her to catsit again. Don't escalate the note-writing madness. Don't move the clothesline or the swingset.
In short - don't anything else different (unless, of course, your kids are running through her front door and trampling her petunias, which is sounds like they are not).
Act friendly when you see her, but if she comes over to chat, don't mention the note. Keep her (and Mrs. Grumpypants down the street) on your holiday card list, if they were already there. And move on with your life, it sounds like you have plenty to keep you busy.
posted by arnicae at 6:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
In short - don't anything else different (unless, of course, your kids are running through her front door and trampling her petunias, which is sounds like they are not).
Act friendly when you see her, but if she comes over to chat, don't mention the note. Keep her (and Mrs. Grumpypants down the street) on your holiday card list, if they were already there. And move on with your life, it sounds like you have plenty to keep you busy.
posted by arnicae at 6:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
Is hanging laundry in the front yard inconsiderate? How about children playing in the front yard? How about kids leaving their toys in the front yard?
01 it really depends on the layout and the neighborhood but unless there is legit nowhere else to put it, I might find this a little tacky
02 perfectly reasonable
03 perfectly reasonable
The playing and the toys are really bullshit complaints from what sounds like a perfectly ghastly busybody or two. Unless the toys are obstructing the sidewalk or somehow blocking access to a fire hydrant or a street sign, and as long as the kids and toys are only on your own property and no one else's, then I can't see how it is anyone's business but your own.
It wasn't until two months later that she said she was very disturbed by it and has a job where she has to report this kind of thing and that we put her in a really awkward position.
What? To whom is she reporting? Unless it is to an HOA (in which case none of your examples are examples of acceptable behavior, sorry), she needs to mind her own fucking business.
posted by elizardbits at 6:46 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
01 it really depends on the layout and the neighborhood but unless there is legit nowhere else to put it, I might find this a little tacky
02 perfectly reasonable
03 perfectly reasonable
The playing and the toys are really bullshit complaints from what sounds like a perfectly ghastly busybody or two. Unless the toys are obstructing the sidewalk or somehow blocking access to a fire hydrant or a street sign, and as long as the kids and toys are only on your own property and no one else's, then I can't see how it is anyone's business but your own.
It wasn't until two months later that she said she was very disturbed by it and has a job where she has to report this kind of thing and that we put her in a really awkward position.
What? To whom is she reporting? Unless it is to an HOA (in which case none of your examples are examples of acceptable behavior, sorry), she needs to mind her own fucking business.
posted by elizardbits at 6:46 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Kids playing in the front yard? Great, no problem.
Kids toys and such strewn across the front lawn? A little odd, understandable once in a while, but it's an especially teachable moment for kids to put their toys away when they are done. You don't have to keep them out of sight, just orderly up by the house.
Laundry line in the front yard? Never seen it before, pretty odd. It's like a weird metaphor for airing your dirty laundry. I wouldn't do it, and I understand why your neighbor thinks it's weird.
posted by sanka at 6:47 PM on October 3, 2013 [25 favorites]
Kids toys and such strewn across the front lawn? A little odd, understandable once in a while, but it's an especially teachable moment for kids to put their toys away when they are done. You don't have to keep them out of sight, just orderly up by the house.
Laundry line in the front yard? Never seen it before, pretty odd. It's like a weird metaphor for airing your dirty laundry. I wouldn't do it, and I understand why your neighbor thinks it's weird.
posted by sanka at 6:47 PM on October 3, 2013 [25 favorites]
Look, you have a right to use your property how you want, but hanging laundry in your front yard can be somewhat unsightly, and I can appreciate that your neighbours might be dismayed by that - it's not, in my view, unreasonable to want your neighbourhood to be attractive and presentable.
For neighbourhoodly harmony, it might be better if your clothesline was out back.
When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY.
Well then fuck her. It's none of her business how messy your house is.
And today we got a letter that both criticized us for not teaching our children to put their toys away (yeah, it's true. not a big priority.) but saying that it is wonderful that they are not inside watching TV. "But can't you use your back and side yards/" she feels like she is under obligation to be an audience and that she doesn't want to "run the gauntlet through all of us" every time she comes and goes. "I can't get into or out of my house with out their attention."
This is a problem that exists in her head. If she doesn't want to talk to you and your family, well, nobody is holding a knife to her throat. Feel free to ignore this.
She wants us to move the play equipment to the back and side yards. She suggests that we put up a fence.
If wishes were horses...etc. Not really your problem. Your kids have every right to play in your front yard, but see point 1 re unsightliness.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:48 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
For neighbourhoodly harmony, it might be better if your clothesline was out back.
When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY.
Well then fuck her. It's none of her business how messy your house is.
And today we got a letter that both criticized us for not teaching our children to put their toys away (yeah, it's true. not a big priority.) but saying that it is wonderful that they are not inside watching TV. "But can't you use your back and side yards/" she feels like she is under obligation to be an audience and that she doesn't want to "run the gauntlet through all of us" every time she comes and goes. "I can't get into or out of my house with out their attention."
This is a problem that exists in her head. If she doesn't want to talk to you and your family, well, nobody is holding a knife to her throat. Feel free to ignore this.
She wants us to move the play equipment to the back and side yards. She suggests that we put up a fence.
If wishes were horses...etc. Not really your problem. Your kids have every right to play in your front yard, but see point 1 re unsightliness.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:48 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
tbh if I were you I would put up a fence just to keep this lady the hell away from my house and my family.
posted by elizardbits at 6:50 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 6:50 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Laundry - feh, it's not so pretty to look at, but not terrible.
Children playing & associated toys - I wish desperately that I lived in a neighborhood with front yards so that we would have that, both for my child and for the others. Children, in my neighborhood, are somewhat invisible, relegated to backyards and indoors. And because we have no sidewalks and are on a narrow, windy street, there's no place to ride a bike, rollerskate, etc. It's awful.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Also, just in case you want one, here's a strategy for easy toy-roundups: Get a big bin, basket, sack, whatever, for every room of the house and/or front & back yards. When playtime is over, yes, have the kids toss everything in the bin. Doesn't have to be neat, doesn't have to be organized. Don't need to make sure the balls are only with other balls and the frisbee is in its own spot, etc. Just a way of gathering it all and putting it "away." This is the strategy that helped me turn my house from "OMG it's overrun with toys!" into "What a pleasant place to live" without any significant amount of work.
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:57 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Children playing & associated toys - I wish desperately that I lived in a neighborhood with front yards so that we would have that, both for my child and for the others. Children, in my neighborhood, are somewhat invisible, relegated to backyards and indoors. And because we have no sidewalks and are on a narrow, windy street, there's no place to ride a bike, rollerskate, etc. It's awful.
Keep doing what you're doing.
Also, just in case you want one, here's a strategy for easy toy-roundups: Get a big bin, basket, sack, whatever, for every room of the house and/or front & back yards. When playtime is over, yes, have the kids toss everything in the bin. Doesn't have to be neat, doesn't have to be organized. Don't need to make sure the balls are only with other balls and the frisbee is in its own spot, etc. Just a way of gathering it all and putting it "away." This is the strategy that helped me turn my house from "OMG it's overrun with toys!" into "What a pleasant place to live" without any significant amount of work.
posted by BlahLaLa at 6:57 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
I've heard stories before about people freaking out over clotheslines. I think it's a surviving class signifier - that's what poor people in tenements do.
posted by thelonius at 6:59 PM on October 3, 2013 [38 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 6:59 PM on October 3, 2013 [38 favorites]
Hanging laundry in the front yard . . . ehhhhh, even though it's not something that I would ever do myself, I can't honestly say that I would care enough to complain if a neighbor did it.
These comments, however:
"run the gauntlet through all of us" every time she comes and goes. "I can't get into or out of my house with out their attention." "I've noticed that some parents assume everyone is as enchanted with their children as they are - and put them in the middle of every occasion so that they can be maximally admired."
are just plain freaky. She's nuts. Don't mind her. Don't exchange snippy notes anymore. Keep things on a superficial Hey-how-ya-doin-nice-weather-we're-having-oh-gosh-look-at-the-time-gotta-go level.
posted by jason's_planet at 7:00 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
These comments, however:
"run the gauntlet through all of us" every time she comes and goes. "I can't get into or out of my house with out their attention." "I've noticed that some parents assume everyone is as enchanted with their children as they are - and put them in the middle of every occasion so that they can be maximally admired."
are just plain freaky. She's nuts. Don't mind her. Don't exchange snippy notes anymore. Keep things on a superficial Hey-how-ya-doin-nice-weather-we're-having-oh-gosh-look-at-the-time-gotta-go level.
posted by jason's_planet at 7:00 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
In the US, a clothesline in the front yard is unusual. Many Home Owner's Associations just plain ban clotheslines. People like it when everybody behaves similarly. That said, I use the railing of my front deck to dry clothes, and haven't heard a peep, but my neighborhood is pretty mellow.
The other neighbor - what? You have healthy pets with appropriate litter box access. Your children are properly fed, clothed and supervised, right? When I did social work, I learned what will and won't get attention from Child Protective Services. Hitting, screaming, not feeding or caring for kids gets attention. So don't worry about anybody making any calls. You have kids, and some toys on the lawn are inevitable. If it's really a lot of stuff, I'd teach the kids to put it away. Having your kids outdoors playing whenever the heck you want? Absolutely.
There's being right, and being a friend. So consider finding a less obtrusive spot for the clothesline. Try to keep the lawn mowed, the trash corralled, the lawn cleaned up once a week, etc. Maybe the kids can make Halloween decorations for the cranky neighbor. Trick or Treating is a good way to visit neighbors and be friendly. Thanksgiving is a good time to make some extra pies to share, Christmas cookies, etc. Some people get stuck in being judgmental, and that sucks, but if you can be friendly and break the ice that has formed, it will be a little more fun to live there.
posted by theora55 at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
The other neighbor - what? You have healthy pets with appropriate litter box access. Your children are properly fed, clothed and supervised, right? When I did social work, I learned what will and won't get attention from Child Protective Services. Hitting, screaming, not feeding or caring for kids gets attention. So don't worry about anybody making any calls. You have kids, and some toys on the lawn are inevitable. If it's really a lot of stuff, I'd teach the kids to put it away. Having your kids outdoors playing whenever the heck you want? Absolutely.
There's being right, and being a friend. So consider finding a less obtrusive spot for the clothesline. Try to keep the lawn mowed, the trash corralled, the lawn cleaned up once a week, etc. Maybe the kids can make Halloween decorations for the cranky neighbor. Trick or Treating is a good way to visit neighbors and be friendly. Thanksgiving is a good time to make some extra pies to share, Christmas cookies, etc. Some people get stuck in being judgmental, and that sucks, but if you can be friendly and break the ice that has formed, it will be a little more fun to live there.
posted by theora55 at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Laundry in the front yard is sort of weird, unless you actually don't have a backyard. I don't want to see your underwear all over the place. Like, I would never bring it up, but I would notice and judge you in my head.
Kids playing in the front yard, toys in the front yard, etc. is totally normal and it is weird and inappropriate for her to complain to you about it. You have an ACRE of land?? This can't possibly be so close to her as to actually cause a problem. My front yard is like, twenty feet across, max, and our neighbors play in their front yard and leave stuff out and honestly who could possibly care. If she feels like she's "running the gauntlet" because your kids wave at her, that is HER problem, not yours. (Also, those notes sound rude as hell, and should be ignored.)
And who on earth would she report you to?? If it's an HOA thing then you shouldn't have moved to that neighborhood - otherwise it's nonsense. Messiness is not criminal. I doubt it's a mandated reporter thing, since it sounds like she thinks you're decent parents (and also "messiness" short of hoarding does not really scream "child abuse"). Sounds like a pack of lies. Ignore this lady.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Kids playing in the front yard, toys in the front yard, etc. is totally normal and it is weird and inappropriate for her to complain to you about it. You have an ACRE of land?? This can't possibly be so close to her as to actually cause a problem. My front yard is like, twenty feet across, max, and our neighbors play in their front yard and leave stuff out and honestly who could possibly care. If she feels like she's "running the gauntlet" because your kids wave at her, that is HER problem, not yours. (Also, those notes sound rude as hell, and should be ignored.)
And who on earth would she report you to?? If it's an HOA thing then you shouldn't have moved to that neighborhood - otherwise it's nonsense. Messiness is not criminal. I doubt it's a mandated reporter thing, since it sounds like she thinks you're decent parents (and also "messiness" short of hoarding does not really scream "child abuse"). Sounds like a pack of lies. Ignore this lady.
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Let me ask a clarifying question. Is it correct that the neighbor who was INSIDE your house said it was so dirty she needed to report it? That makes me think that she thought your home posed a health risk to the neighborhood or to your children. Thatz not okay.
Regarding the outside, your neighbors might be better off in a community with an HOA. That said, two of your neighbors have told your house is a problem. Neighborhood hatred is no fun for anyone. No one wants to be the house that everyone considers a ramshackle eyesore. I'm sure it's not fun to be the children of that home either.
posted by 26.2 at 7:02 PM on October 3, 2013 [17 favorites]
Regarding the outside, your neighbors might be better off in a community with an HOA. That said, two of your neighbors have told your house is a problem. Neighborhood hatred is no fun for anyone. No one wants to be the house that everyone considers a ramshackle eyesore. I'm sure it's not fun to be the children of that home either.
posted by 26.2 at 7:02 PM on October 3, 2013 [17 favorites]
Do you do anything to mitigate your kids' impact on the block? I live on a block with front yards and kids, and some houses don't have kids, and I bother my own to not go shrieking and screaming about -- 'not everybody in town is playing, they don't all want to hear it' -- and I don't get why you wouldn't at least make some attempts in the bring-your-toys-in racket; it's not always going to work but it will save some bikes from rusting and generally make life more pleasant for everybody, including the kids whose toys are going to get damaged from being left in a soggy yard.
posted by kmennie at 7:11 PM on October 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by kmennie at 7:11 PM on October 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
I have a strange lay out where I have roads on three sides of my property. So, while my clothes line is across the driveway it is technically my garden. It is the only place the dogs can't get in to tear it down. The last place I lived the neighbor used the front yard - and left her clothes up for days. That was unsightly, especially when they came out in under ware to get their clothes for the day.
Everyone tolerates a different level of slobbyness. Don't have her watch your cats. Hire a teen whose room is most likely worse than your house would ever be. Do inform the teen of where the litter box is.
Tell the kids to pick up some so stuff doesn't get stolen. Yes, not likely, but it is good habit. Don't worry too much if this doesn't, always happen. Just make some effort. It will also keep her from tripping if she comes over in the dark.
Tell your kids that when people get home from work they are tired and want some time alone. It is neighborly to smile and wave, but don't go over unless invited. This is mainly her thing, and she needs to get over it. Just like I had to get over people waving and saying hi when I went out to run when I just wanted to concentrate on running - not being social.
No more notes. Talk face to face, and give her some cookies when the holidays come around.
posted by 101cats at 7:14 PM on October 3, 2013
Everyone tolerates a different level of slobbyness. Don't have her watch your cats. Hire a teen whose room is most likely worse than your house would ever be. Do inform the teen of where the litter box is.
Tell the kids to pick up some so stuff doesn't get stolen. Yes, not likely, but it is good habit. Don't worry too much if this doesn't, always happen. Just make some effort. It will also keep her from tripping if she comes over in the dark.
Tell your kids that when people get home from work they are tired and want some time alone. It is neighborly to smile and wave, but don't go over unless invited. This is mainly her thing, and she needs to get over it. Just like I had to get over people waving and saying hi when I went out to run when I just wanted to concentrate on running - not being social.
No more notes. Talk face to face, and give her some cookies when the holidays come around.
posted by 101cats at 7:14 PM on October 3, 2013
I may be a prude, but I don't think the front yard is the place for any of these activities. Can you do them there? That depends on your zoning/HOA. Should you do them there? No way.
The front yard is public domain. The back (and to a lesser degree the side) yard is where you hang out, enjoy your patch of earth, etc. My area is dominated by POA's/HOA's (for better or worse), and due to my line of work, I end up reading a lot of restrictive covenants/zoning codes. I don't think it's a coincidence that where play structures or clothes lines are allowed at all, they're relegated to the back. (I live at the beach, and here, we can't even hang towels over railings overnight, so YMMV.)
Plant some trees in the back, make it habitable, move the lawn furniture back there. Or ignore this completely per the other replies. ;)
posted by Kronur at 7:15 PM on October 3, 2013 [21 favorites]
The front yard is public domain. The back (and to a lesser degree the side) yard is where you hang out, enjoy your patch of earth, etc. My area is dominated by POA's/HOA's (for better or worse), and due to my line of work, I end up reading a lot of restrictive covenants/zoning codes. I don't think it's a coincidence that where play structures or clothes lines are allowed at all, they're relegated to the back. (I live at the beach, and here, we can't even hang towels over railings overnight, so YMMV.)
Plant some trees in the back, make it habitable, move the lawn furniture back there. Or ignore this completely per the other replies. ;)
posted by Kronur at 7:15 PM on October 3, 2013 [21 favorites]
If you were my neighbour and you were hanging your laundry out in the front yard, the front rather than rear yard was the kids' primary play area, and eating your meals in the front yard too I'd have a problem with that. It's not a problem I could do anything about, but I would be deeply unhappy about it.
Your family has a lot; that lot has both public facing space and private family space. The front yard is not private family space. And there is an extent to which you cavorting in the front yard as if it is private family space is imposing upon your neighbours.
When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY. And she had a point... My wife sent her a note explaining that we a busy and children take priority and such.
The children being in an environment that is both clean and safe is a basic need. If your neighbour is a mandatory reporter and felt that your family home created a neglectful environment for your kids, you have a problem and the problem isn't the neighbour: it's you.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:16 PM on October 3, 2013 [82 favorites]
Your family has a lot; that lot has both public facing space and private family space. The front yard is not private family space. And there is an extent to which you cavorting in the front yard as if it is private family space is imposing upon your neighbours.
When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY. And she had a point... My wife sent her a note explaining that we a busy and children take priority and such.
The children being in an environment that is both clean and safe is a basic need. If your neighbour is a mandatory reporter and felt that your family home created a neglectful environment for your kids, you have a problem and the problem isn't the neighbour: it's you.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:16 PM on October 3, 2013 [82 favorites]
We have free range children in our neighborhood and for the most part I'm pretty pleased about it. But some days I just want to sit on my back porch and chill. Not have a conversation about ninjas or the sky or angry birds.
I dig my neighbor's kids and they are sweet, but they have no concept of privacy or space. We've has many a conversation about why we don't go into garages without supervision. Thing is, I do sometimes feel like my neighbor's enjoyment of their yard is infringing on my enjoyment of mine.
Not saying this is the case with your neighbor but offering the view from the other porch.
posted by teleri025 at 7:25 PM on October 3, 2013 [14 favorites]
I dig my neighbor's kids and they are sweet, but they have no concept of privacy or space. We've has many a conversation about why we don't go into garages without supervision. Thing is, I do sometimes feel like my neighbor's enjoyment of their yard is infringing on my enjoyment of mine.
Not saying this is the case with your neighbor but offering the view from the other porch.
posted by teleri025 at 7:25 PM on October 3, 2013 [14 favorites]
The children being in an environment that is both clean and safe is a basic need.
This is true for certain values of clean. The neighbor's complaints were that the toys weren't put away and that the litter box was in the garage (where the cat used it). Those are not types of messiness that infringe on the well being of children. If the house had piles of garbage, or rotting food, or poop on the floor, or a rodent/insect infestation - yeah, of course, those are things that would concern a reasonable person. But unless my reading is way off, that's not what is happening here. Lots of people are messy and leave clutter lying around. That's not abuse, and it's weird for the neighbor to comment on it, let alone threaten to report it.
(note to OP: if your house is full of garbage and has infestations then ignore all of this and hire a housecleaner/therapist, stat)
(Also, I wonder if the "hang out in your backyard only" thing is a suburban cultural thing? People here seem to do 90% of their hanging out in front yards/front porches - I think it would be seen as unneighborly if you didn't. So OP take that into consideration as well.)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:26 PM on October 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
This is true for certain values of clean. The neighbor's complaints were that the toys weren't put away and that the litter box was in the garage (where the cat used it). Those are not types of messiness that infringe on the well being of children. If the house had piles of garbage, or rotting food, or poop on the floor, or a rodent/insect infestation - yeah, of course, those are things that would concern a reasonable person. But unless my reading is way off, that's not what is happening here. Lots of people are messy and leave clutter lying around. That's not abuse, and it's weird for the neighbor to comment on it, let alone threaten to report it.
(note to OP: if your house is full of garbage and has infestations then ignore all of this and hire a housecleaner/therapist, stat)
(Also, I wonder if the "hang out in your backyard only" thing is a suburban cultural thing? People here seem to do 90% of their hanging out in front yards/front porches - I think it would be seen as unneighborly if you didn't. So OP take that into consideration as well.)
posted by goodbyewaffles at 7:26 PM on October 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
Best answer: We have a lot a third the size of yours and also hang out laundry (diapers mostly) and spend a minimum of 2-3hrs/day playing in the yard with TinyJungle (14 month old) so we're in a similar place. That being said, I do hang my laundry in the back yard even though the front would be easier because I know my neighbors don't want to see a bunch of diapers and clothes hanging outside. It sucks to haul them back and forth sometimes but in the interest of neighborhood harmony it's a sacrifice I think is acceptable, ymmv. As for toys, we have a water table that lives outside and outside toys get chucked into a bin on the porch when we're done. This started after the lawn mower vs jump rope incident of 2013 and is working out pretty well. If we had a swing set I wouldn't have any qualms about putting it in the front yard.
As for the waving etc., she is weird, let the kids wave and if she doesn't wave back use it as a teaching moment that not everyone waves but that's no reason to be rude to them later.
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
As for the waving etc., she is weird, let the kids wave and if she doesn't wave back use it as a teaching moment that not everyone waves but that's no reason to be rude to them later.
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
I would also consider putting up a fence, just to make your life easier.
That being said...and I say this as a woman who can be quite messy -- if I had neighbors move in and they put up a laundry line in the front yard, I would be really REALLY surprised. This might be regional, but that reads pretty tacky to me and I suspect she's concerned that the appearance of your house is bringing down her property values. (Let me just note that I actually LOVE clotheslines, but having your laundry flapping in the front yard seems weird to me.) I'd appease her by moving the clothesline -- I mean, y'all have an acre. Why is everything in the front? Is the house super-far back from the road?
As far as the kids go, of course they SHOULD be playing in the yard, but I wonder if some of her reaction stems from what the yard looks like, given her note. Are the toys EVERYWHERE? Is the laundry everywhere? Is the swing-set crappy looking? Basically, is the whole front yard kind of an eyesore? Because it's technically your right to have an eyesore yard if you want it, and she sounds like a PAIN, but I can see why she might not relish living eyesore-adjacent. And since TWO neighbors have said something, maybe cast a careful eye over the front yard and see if you can move some of that stuff into the back section of the acre to keep the peace, or at least to pick it up a bit before everyone goes home for the night.
Regarding "reporting" you, I assume she meant to CPS? You guys sound like involved and loving parents so I wouldn't worry too much about that, but that's how I read it. If the house is messy enough to make her worry about reporting you...that yard might just be an eyesore, my friend. I think cleaning it up would probably go a long way toward mitigating this issue as a whole, though. And don't let her inside again!!
posted by Countess Sandwich at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2013 [8 favorites]
That being said...and I say this as a woman who can be quite messy -- if I had neighbors move in and they put up a laundry line in the front yard, I would be really REALLY surprised. This might be regional, but that reads pretty tacky to me and I suspect she's concerned that the appearance of your house is bringing down her property values. (Let me just note that I actually LOVE clotheslines, but having your laundry flapping in the front yard seems weird to me.) I'd appease her by moving the clothesline -- I mean, y'all have an acre. Why is everything in the front? Is the house super-far back from the road?
As far as the kids go, of course they SHOULD be playing in the yard, but I wonder if some of her reaction stems from what the yard looks like, given her note. Are the toys EVERYWHERE? Is the laundry everywhere? Is the swing-set crappy looking? Basically, is the whole front yard kind of an eyesore? Because it's technically your right to have an eyesore yard if you want it, and she sounds like a PAIN, but I can see why she might not relish living eyesore-adjacent. And since TWO neighbors have said something, maybe cast a careful eye over the front yard and see if you can move some of that stuff into the back section of the acre to keep the peace, or at least to pick it up a bit before everyone goes home for the night.
Regarding "reporting" you, I assume she meant to CPS? You guys sound like involved and loving parents so I wouldn't worry too much about that, but that's how I read it. If the house is messy enough to make her worry about reporting you...that yard might just be an eyesore, my friend. I think cleaning it up would probably go a long way toward mitigating this issue as a whole, though. And don't let her inside again!!
posted by Countess Sandwich at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2013 [8 favorites]
The VERY MESSY note makes me think the neighbor has a job that entails being a mandatory reporter of such things and the house may be a little more out of order than OP thinks.
posted by sanka at 7:30 PM on October 3, 2013 [34 favorites]
posted by sanka at 7:30 PM on October 3, 2013 [34 favorites]
I'm not attached to convention (and like it when people, for example, get rid of their front lawns to plant a vegetable garden), but I agree that laundry-- and probably toys--make sense to keep in the backyard. Putting up a tall fence or hedge seems like a good way to keep using the space without bothering the neighbors...
posted by three_red_balloons at 7:33 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by three_red_balloons at 7:33 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
has a job where she has to report this kind of thing
I suspect she is a mandatory reporter for children being mistreated.
She may be distancing herself from you to avoid conflicts between how she personally feels about you and your kids and how they are cared for, and the specific state guidelines for what needs to be reported. Maybe she is seeing something in your front yard that she feels the law would require her to report, and would be at risk of loosing a job or licence if it came out that she knew or should have known about it with all your front yard activities in plain view -- but feels on a personal level that you don't deserve to be reported. She's asking you not to force her to report you, and of course she certainly can't mention any specifics in writing -- it's likely that something not in the note is the real issue. You won't get it out of her by bringing it up, because if you were investigated it might come out that she had said something about this to you, and that would endanger her job, and she is well aware of that. Don't force her hand by continuing to have your private family life in full view in the front yard.
If you are asking someone to take care of your cat, you should let them know where the litter box is. Of course if you have the litter box in an unusual spot, and they look around and don't see it, they would think you have no litter box and the animal may be pooping behind furniture or something. Animal waste in a house with children is often considered neglectful.
50 yards isn't all that far in more rural areas. Usually I only see larger play equipment and clotheslines in front yards in neighborhoods that don't have back yards large enough for such things. Kids can be loud, and many people in more rural areas like things to be quiet.
It is a kindness to your neighbors to keep the side of your house facing them reasonably neat looking. Some municipalities actually have rarely enforced zoning laws covering some of these things, and if one's neighbors want to be particularly obnoxious about such things they can submit a complaint which may lead to a letter from one's local government threatening dire consequences. It's often best in the long run to avoid riling one's neighbors, as they are less inclined to be generous in granting you slack on this sort of thing in the future.
posted by yohko at 7:34 PM on October 3, 2013 [20 favorites]
I suspect she is a mandatory reporter for children being mistreated.
She may be distancing herself from you to avoid conflicts between how she personally feels about you and your kids and how they are cared for, and the specific state guidelines for what needs to be reported. Maybe she is seeing something in your front yard that she feels the law would require her to report, and would be at risk of loosing a job or licence if it came out that she knew or should have known about it with all your front yard activities in plain view -- but feels on a personal level that you don't deserve to be reported. She's asking you not to force her to report you, and of course she certainly can't mention any specifics in writing -- it's likely that something not in the note is the real issue. You won't get it out of her by bringing it up, because if you were investigated it might come out that she had said something about this to you, and that would endanger her job, and she is well aware of that. Don't force her hand by continuing to have your private family life in full view in the front yard.
If you are asking someone to take care of your cat, you should let them know where the litter box is. Of course if you have the litter box in an unusual spot, and they look around and don't see it, they would think you have no litter box and the animal may be pooping behind furniture or something. Animal waste in a house with children is often considered neglectful.
50 yards isn't all that far in more rural areas. Usually I only see larger play equipment and clotheslines in front yards in neighborhoods that don't have back yards large enough for such things. Kids can be loud, and many people in more rural areas like things to be quiet.
It is a kindness to your neighbors to keep the side of your house facing them reasonably neat looking. Some municipalities actually have rarely enforced zoning laws covering some of these things, and if one's neighbors want to be particularly obnoxious about such things they can submit a complaint which may lead to a letter from one's local government threatening dire consequences. It's often best in the long run to avoid riling one's neighbors, as they are less inclined to be generous in granting you slack on this sort of thing in the future.
posted by yohko at 7:34 PM on October 3, 2013 [20 favorites]
Best answer: This across-the-street neighbor used to invite your kids along on walks. Now, apparently, she feels they want to much of her attention. It's really too bad that she thinks she didn't cause this issue and doesn't know how to turn it around! Tell your kids that Ms. So-and-So is nice and she loves it if they wave to her. But mostly she likes to be alone with her dogs. So they should wave and say hi, and then just keep on having fun on their own. You can tell the woman that she should feel free to politely tell your kids, "Bye and have a nice day."
The lady is really happier keeping her own company, but she goes too far outside of that and ends up inside your house and judging everything she sees. This isn't your fault. Be really kind when you talk to her, because she clearly doesn't know how to protect herself from her own anxiety and distaste for other people's way of doing things. This business about parents thinking their kids are such a pleasure for the neighbors -- that's just a distraction from the real problem, which is that she doesn't know a tactful way to say how she feels.
It's rare to find a neighbor who doesn't object to toys in the front yard. Also, if your kids play in front, the neighbors can't help but witness them being noisy and worse... that's just how kids are when they play. I'm suggesting that you seriously think about whether the back yard could turn into a preferred play area. People like their privacy, and they can usually tolerate the foibles of only their own kids. I know you shouldn't have to worry about every little quibble, but let your kids be themselves in a place where it's okay to do that.
I agree with comments saying that you should apologize, thank the silly neighbor for telling you how she feels, and then have much less interaction with her. If you say the right phrases, she might stop feeling trapped by her own weakness when it comes to asserting herself.
posted by wryly at 7:35 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
The lady is really happier keeping her own company, but she goes too far outside of that and ends up inside your house and judging everything she sees. This isn't your fault. Be really kind when you talk to her, because she clearly doesn't know how to protect herself from her own anxiety and distaste for other people's way of doing things. This business about parents thinking their kids are such a pleasure for the neighbors -- that's just a distraction from the real problem, which is that she doesn't know a tactful way to say how she feels.
It's rare to find a neighbor who doesn't object to toys in the front yard. Also, if your kids play in front, the neighbors can't help but witness them being noisy and worse... that's just how kids are when they play. I'm suggesting that you seriously think about whether the back yard could turn into a preferred play area. People like their privacy, and they can usually tolerate the foibles of only their own kids. I know you shouldn't have to worry about every little quibble, but let your kids be themselves in a place where it's okay to do that.
I agree with comments saying that you should apologize, thank the silly neighbor for telling you how she feels, and then have much less interaction with her. If you say the right phrases, she might stop feeling trapped by her own weakness when it comes to asserting herself.
posted by wryly at 7:35 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Is hanging laundry in the front yard inconsiderate?
To me, it depends on the laundry. Like, I would personally not want my guests to see your underwear, and would find it kinda squicky if it was cloth diapers. When I have had roommates, we did not use shared spaces to hang dry clothes, either.
How about children playing in the front yard?
I actively dislike children playing in front yards, because typically their parents think that if they keep an ear out they're effectively monitoring their child, and they're not. Also, the last home I lived in where a family always had their kids outside, my office was in the front of the house and their kids' annoying, shrill, and squeaky voices were a constant. The kids also would use the property line as a boundary for tag and also you could hear their stupid kid voices all the way into my living room when they got going. And they were ALWAYS curious about what I was going, where, and with who. It was incredibly draining, and since I was doing shiftwork at the time, it really messed up my sleep schedule. I'm saying this as someone who actually really LOVES kids and generally buys into the "it takes a village" philosophy. I just don't dig having kids in front yards, yelling yelling yelling, and having a five year old feel entitled to ask me where I'm going.
How about kids leaving their toys in the front yard?
I think that's pretty groudy.
When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY. And she had a point. She thought that we didn't have a litter box - which we did in the garage accessible via cat door and the cat did use it.
So... does that mean the litter box wasn't changed for a few days and your house smelled like cat pee, on top of the messiness you're acknowledging as a thing? Yeah, that is an awkward position to be in as a court mandated reporter.
I don't know what to tell my kids. "Don't go over to the neighbors house anymore?" - which they haven't in months - kids are sensitive. They didn't feel welcome.
Good, sounds like they weren't.
Don't look at her car? Don't wave? That's ridiculous. One year old's are just learning how to wave. It is exciting for them.
What a great opportunity to teach your kids that you don't say hi to strangers, and that not everyone cares about what's exciting to them.
posted by spunweb at 7:40 PM on October 3, 2013 [23 favorites]
To me, it depends on the laundry. Like, I would personally not want my guests to see your underwear, and would find it kinda squicky if it was cloth diapers. When I have had roommates, we did not use shared spaces to hang dry clothes, either.
How about children playing in the front yard?
I actively dislike children playing in front yards, because typically their parents think that if they keep an ear out they're effectively monitoring their child, and they're not. Also, the last home I lived in where a family always had their kids outside, my office was in the front of the house and their kids' annoying, shrill, and squeaky voices were a constant. The kids also would use the property line as a boundary for tag and also you could hear their stupid kid voices all the way into my living room when they got going. And they were ALWAYS curious about what I was going, where, and with who. It was incredibly draining, and since I was doing shiftwork at the time, it really messed up my sleep schedule. I'm saying this as someone who actually really LOVES kids and generally buys into the "it takes a village" philosophy. I just don't dig having kids in front yards, yelling yelling yelling, and having a five year old feel entitled to ask me where I'm going.
How about kids leaving their toys in the front yard?
I think that's pretty groudy.
When we came back there was a note to the effect that our house was VERY MESSY. And she had a point. She thought that we didn't have a litter box - which we did in the garage accessible via cat door and the cat did use it.
So... does that mean the litter box wasn't changed for a few days and your house smelled like cat pee, on top of the messiness you're acknowledging as a thing? Yeah, that is an awkward position to be in as a court mandated reporter.
I don't know what to tell my kids. "Don't go over to the neighbors house anymore?" - which they haven't in months - kids are sensitive. They didn't feel welcome.
Good, sounds like they weren't.
Don't look at her car? Don't wave? That's ridiculous. One year old's are just learning how to wave. It is exciting for them.
What a great opportunity to teach your kids that you don't say hi to strangers, and that not everyone cares about what's exciting to them.
posted by spunweb at 7:40 PM on October 3, 2013 [23 favorites]
I just cannot think of any reason a 1-acre property has nowhere else for laundry line but the front yard. I am a big fan of laundry lines, I set up wooden racks in the backyard myself. Unless you're Amish, I don't want to see your laundry (Amish lines of laundry are awesome). (If you are Amish, I'm going to report you for internetting.)
It's possible just moving the laundry line to a private spot will make everyone love you and you can keep on with the rest. Casually mention that you were about to adopt a great dog, but it was very barky, and you didn't think it would fit in with the neighborhood.
I firmly believe kids should play and have fun, even loud fun. I sure wish it wasn't always loud fun, so if they are always loud I hope you can work on that somehow. You will be showing more respect to the neighborhood if you can corral the toys at the end of the day, even if they're not brought inside. It's your job as parents to teach them to pick things up, start with the most public spaces and work your way inside.
What's wrong with your back yard that NOTHING you do is happening there?
I think it's better for YOU to teach them boundaries with the neighbors, rather than the neighbors having to--if they are running over to people's houses. You said they're not doing this with grumpy neighbor at all. But maybe that's why they were ending up on walks with her, but she finally said something. Teach them how to stop by and have a short talk and then move on. It's awkward to be the neighbor and not want to be rude to kids--I always think that at some point they may be delinquent teens, better not burn bridges.
I am someone with a messy house. I would not have a neighbor come over to watch my cats without spending all night tidying up, because there are favors, and then there are FAVORS. The fact that she was there to take care of your cat, and you didn't even tell her where the catbox was, is really strange to me.
posted by Anwan at 7:41 PM on October 3, 2013 [13 favorites]
It's possible just moving the laundry line to a private spot will make everyone love you and you can keep on with the rest. Casually mention that you were about to adopt a great dog, but it was very barky, and you didn't think it would fit in with the neighborhood.
I firmly believe kids should play and have fun, even loud fun. I sure wish it wasn't always loud fun, so if they are always loud I hope you can work on that somehow. You will be showing more respect to the neighborhood if you can corral the toys at the end of the day, even if they're not brought inside. It's your job as parents to teach them to pick things up, start with the most public spaces and work your way inside.
What's wrong with your back yard that NOTHING you do is happening there?
I think it's better for YOU to teach them boundaries with the neighbors, rather than the neighbors having to--if they are running over to people's houses. You said they're not doing this with grumpy neighbor at all. But maybe that's why they were ending up on walks with her, but she finally said something. Teach them how to stop by and have a short talk and then move on. It's awkward to be the neighbor and not want to be rude to kids--I always think that at some point they may be delinquent teens, better not burn bridges.
I am someone with a messy house. I would not have a neighbor come over to watch my cats without spending all night tidying up, because there are favors, and then there are FAVORS. The fact that she was there to take care of your cat, and you didn't even tell her where the catbox was, is really strange to me.
posted by Anwan at 7:41 PM on October 3, 2013 [13 favorites]
Is hanging laundry in the front yard inconsiderate? Yes. How about children playing in the front yard? Yes, if they only play in the front yard. How about kids leaving their toys in the front yard? Yes.
Seriously, who puts a clothesline in their front yard? No one wants to look at your underwear swaying in the breeze, put that shit in the back. Buy big buckets and drill holes into so that rain doesn't collect in them and have your children put their toys in them in the front yard only if you do not have a back yard. If you have a back yard, toys go in the back. Don't leave crap strewn in your front yard, that's not cool to do to your neighbors.
posted by crankylex at 7:42 PM on October 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
Seriously, who puts a clothesline in their front yard? No one wants to look at your underwear swaying in the breeze, put that shit in the back. Buy big buckets and drill holes into so that rain doesn't collect in them and have your children put their toys in them in the front yard only if you do not have a back yard. If you have a back yard, toys go in the back. Don't leave crap strewn in your front yard, that's not cool to do to your neighbors.
posted by crankylex at 7:42 PM on October 3, 2013 [12 favorites]
Also, seriously, it's your job as a parent to make sure your kids pick up, so if the messiness in the front is from eating lunch and dinner outside, and you live in a rural area where there are raccoons, that is majorly uncool.
posted by spunweb at 7:44 PM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by spunweb at 7:44 PM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
Also:
Should we stop being annoying neighbors?
You know the answer to this question is generally yes.
posted by spunweb at 7:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [14 favorites]
Should we stop being annoying neighbors?
You know the answer to this question is generally yes.
posted by spunweb at 7:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [14 favorites]
If you haven't moved, it sounds as if the backyard is not the ideal play area. Let the brood play out front and eat under the shade tree. If it were me, I would move the clothes line, but it is not me.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:51 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:51 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are you not from around here? Sounds like you're unfamiliar with some rules of neighbourliness that are completely ingrained in middle-class American culture. The front yard is for show, for curb appeal, it's essentially public, the back yard is private, for family use. You keep the front yard neat, the grass cut. You do as the others do.
posted by Dragonness at 7:59 PM on October 3, 2013 [20 favorites]
posted by Dragonness at 7:59 PM on October 3, 2013 [20 favorites]
The children being in an environment that is both clean and safe is a basic need. If your neighbour is a mandatory reporter and felt that your family home created a neglectful environment for your kids, you have a problem and the problem isn't the neighbour: it's you.
I'd respond to this a bit by saying that clean and unmessy are not the same thing (so you'd have to determine which is going on), and also that mandatory reporters don't always get it right. Not every mandatory reporter is a trained social worker. The problem still could be your neighbor, although based on what you describe, all the front-yard activity would likely be a bit annoying to me, too.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:01 PM on October 3, 2013
I'd respond to this a bit by saying that clean and unmessy are not the same thing (so you'd have to determine which is going on), and also that mandatory reporters don't always get it right. Not every mandatory reporter is a trained social worker. The problem still could be your neighbor, although based on what you describe, all the front-yard activity would likely be a bit annoying to me, too.
posted by SpacemanStix at 8:01 PM on October 3, 2013
It seems that you have your front yard and back yards reversed in terms of purpose and use. You amazingly have a clothesline, swing set, monkey bars, and a picnic table in the front yard while as far I can tell, the back yard remains pristine. Why? Is the back yard an old bombing range that mind still have live ordnance lurking just under the lawn?
As the parent of two, I don't know why an infant requires a clothesline in the front yard rather than the back.
While your land is your private property, it is not yours to do with as you please in every respect. There is such a thing as an eyesore. That is one reason why even if you have no HOA, the local authorities will require that you keep your yards maintained to a minimum extent. I am not sure what your local ordinances are, but it is possible you may be in violation of them. You will know for sure if someone ever drops by to deliver a citation. What you describe in your question is making me have some serious concerns about how you choose to live. I don't think the neighbor was remarking about her reporting duties frivolously.
posted by Tanizaki at 8:07 PM on October 3, 2013 [25 favorites]
As the parent of two, I don't know why an infant requires a clothesline in the front yard rather than the back.
While your land is your private property, it is not yours to do with as you please in every respect. There is such a thing as an eyesore. That is one reason why even if you have no HOA, the local authorities will require that you keep your yards maintained to a minimum extent. I am not sure what your local ordinances are, but it is possible you may be in violation of them. You will know for sure if someone ever drops by to deliver a citation. What you describe in your question is making me have some serious concerns about how you choose to live. I don't think the neighbor was remarking about her reporting duties frivolously.
posted by Tanizaki at 8:07 PM on October 3, 2013 [25 favorites]
Obviously I can't see your house or your neighborhood, so YMMV.
But, in every neighborhood I've ever lived in in the U.S. where both front yards and back yards were available, things such as clotheslines, picnic tables, play structures like swingsets, and toys left outdoors like bicycles, are all considered backyard items rather than front yard items. Kids may play in the front yard, but they either take their stuff indoors or out back when they're done with it. (The exception might be a basketball hoop or hockey net that has to stay on a paved driveway,but not everybody has those.) I've never lived near a family who does so much in the front, and I suspect many of your neighbors haven't , either.
So, unless there's some HOA or zoning regulation you don't know about, you're probably within your legal rights to carry on as you are, if that's all you care about. But in the eyes of your neighbors, who for generations have lived under the basic premise that these are fundamentally backyard activities and it's the front yard's job to look pretty and inviting, your front yard may look like a bit of an eyesore. Like I said, I don't know because I can't see it.
So, personally,if it was me, I'd probably look into moving some stuff out back in the interest of neighborly harmony. Sure, maybe it feels like "giving in," but it's great having friendly neighbors and awful having unfriendly ones, and the stuff works just as well in the backyard where most people use it. I'd probably start with the clothesline.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:18 PM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
But, in every neighborhood I've ever lived in in the U.S. where both front yards and back yards were available, things such as clotheslines, picnic tables, play structures like swingsets, and toys left outdoors like bicycles, are all considered backyard items rather than front yard items. Kids may play in the front yard, but they either take their stuff indoors or out back when they're done with it. (The exception might be a basketball hoop or hockey net that has to stay on a paved driveway,but not everybody has those.) I've never lived near a family who does so much in the front, and I suspect many of your neighbors haven't , either.
So, unless there's some HOA or zoning regulation you don't know about, you're probably within your legal rights to carry on as you are, if that's all you care about. But in the eyes of your neighbors, who for generations have lived under the basic premise that these are fundamentally backyard activities and it's the front yard's job to look pretty and inviting, your front yard may look like a bit of an eyesore. Like I said, I don't know because I can't see it.
So, personally,if it was me, I'd probably look into moving some stuff out back in the interest of neighborly harmony. Sure, maybe it feels like "giving in," but it's great having friendly neighbors and awful having unfriendly ones, and the stuff works just as well in the backyard where most people use it. I'd probably start with the clothesline.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:18 PM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
The front yard is the well-groomed side you present to the public and the back yard is a little more laid-back. The importance of a nice yard varies from neighborhood to neighborhood: if you live in an upscale area where the houses are showy and people regularly hire professional landscapers, a sloppy yard is a serious faux pas; if you live in a neighborhood where the houses are set far back from the street and obscured by trees, you have more leeway.
Clotheslines, swing sets, and picnic tables all generally go in the back yard. It's fine for kids to play in the front yard and leave an outdoor toy or two hanging around; toys should generally be either indoor-only or outdoor-only (unless they're super easy to clean or the kids are super careful), and leaving indoor things like stuffed animals outside is unhygienic. Playground equipment is a different story: it's large and difficult or impossible to relocate. And anything that large will be the first thing people notice, and it's really hard to landscape around a swing set. Plus, this stuff does rust and break down, and your neighbors may be envisioning a point fifteen years from now when your swing set is no longer functional, but sits there decaying.
If I were your neighbor, I'd think all this a little tacky, but I'd let it slide. I don't think it's particularly great that we're obligated to keep our yards pretty for the neighbors, but that's life in the suburbs.
I don't think there's enough information here for us to evaluate the cleanliness of your home. I will say, however, that early childhood is a great time to teach your kids not just to pick up after themselves, but to appreciate tidiness. If you don't teach it now, it'll be harder to teach later.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:27 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Clotheslines, swing sets, and picnic tables all generally go in the back yard. It's fine for kids to play in the front yard and leave an outdoor toy or two hanging around; toys should generally be either indoor-only or outdoor-only (unless they're super easy to clean or the kids are super careful), and leaving indoor things like stuffed animals outside is unhygienic. Playground equipment is a different story: it's large and difficult or impossible to relocate. And anything that large will be the first thing people notice, and it's really hard to landscape around a swing set. Plus, this stuff does rust and break down, and your neighbors may be envisioning a point fifteen years from now when your swing set is no longer functional, but sits there decaying.
If I were your neighbor, I'd think all this a little tacky, but I'd let it slide. I don't think it's particularly great that we're obligated to keep our yards pretty for the neighbors, but that's life in the suburbs.
I don't think there's enough information here for us to evaluate the cleanliness of your home. I will say, however, that early childhood is a great time to teach your kids not just to pick up after themselves, but to appreciate tidiness. If you don't teach it now, it'll be harder to teach later.
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:27 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
The only time I've seen laundry out front was for: a) yard sales, b) places where there was no back yard. If either a or b hold here, go for it. Otherwise get a privacy fence or move that stuff. Your neighbors don't want to see your tightly whities, and you have an acre – an acre! – of land to find some reasonable place for your clothesline.
posted by zippy at 8:30 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by zippy at 8:30 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
At Johnny Gunn's prompt, I looked at the question about the shared driveway. Are these the people who think you stiffed them on the paving or shoveling? If it is, that would be bad because you've allowed bad neighbor relations fester. If it's not, then that's bad too since you aren't able to get along with a lot of neighbors.
Either all of your neighbors are jerks (and I'm so sorry because that sucks) or your behavior is consistently out of line with their norms.
posted by 26.2 at 8:36 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Either all of your neighbors are jerks (and I'm so sorry because that sucks) or your behavior is consistently out of line with their norms.
posted by 26.2 at 8:36 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
How about children playing in the front yard?
This can really depend on the setup of the street and the driveways, and on how well the children have been taught.
I live in town and don't drive anymore, but when I lived on country roads and village streets, I can't count the number of heart attacks I thought I was going to have every time I backed out of the driveway, heard a child scream at the top of his lungs, and was sure I had hit one of the neighbor kids who were running around playing.
Turns out they were usually simply testing the sound of their own voices at waking-the-dead levels around operating motor vehicles just for shits and giggles. And, they darted into the driveways and roads so often while they were playing out front and at such speeds that no brakes known to Man could possibly have stopped in time every time - it was just a matter of waiting out the averages before someone got hurt.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:38 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
This can really depend on the setup of the street and the driveways, and on how well the children have been taught.
I live in town and don't drive anymore, but when I lived on country roads and village streets, I can't count the number of heart attacks I thought I was going to have every time I backed out of the driveway, heard a child scream at the top of his lungs, and was sure I had hit one of the neighbor kids who were running around playing.
Turns out they were usually simply testing the sound of their own voices at waking-the-dead levels around operating motor vehicles just for shits and giggles. And, they darted into the driveways and roads so often while they were playing out front and at such speeds that no brakes known to Man could possibly have stopped in time every time - it was just a matter of waiting out the averages before someone got hurt.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:38 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
@26.2 It can be both, and I think it is.
posted by sanka at 8:38 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by sanka at 8:38 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is a simple matter of social norms. All this crap goes in the back. I don't even understand why you'd want to have it out front when you have so much land.
Also, you're not doing your kids any favors by not teaching them to pick up after themselves.
posted by HotToddy at 8:42 PM on October 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
Also, you're not doing your kids any favors by not teaching them to pick up after themselves.
posted by HotToddy at 8:42 PM on October 3, 2013 [9 favorites]
If your neighbor that's a court-mandated reporter thinks your house is seriously unclean enough she doesn't want to be around it, you may want to clean things up. I'm just remembering a thread on another forum where a guy was complaining CPS took his kids away and "So I have kids and I don't have time to clean" and everyone rallied around him right up until he posted pictures of the filth-filled hovel he lived in.
I mean, there's "I have kids" messy and there's "this is unsafe and I am legally obligated to report it" messy, you may want to get a non-biased set of eyes on it.
Assuming you don't live in a hovel, it sounds to me like you're not used to how things work in the suburbs. What you're doing would be fine and dandy out in a more rural area but in the suburbs, people care about/are obsessed with their front yards and, sad to say, you're That Neighbor with a bunch of crap in your yard and potentially bringing down property values because many suburban people WANT to live in a place with nice, neat houses without a bunch of crap in the front yard not comfy houses with stuff all willy nilly and a bunch of kids running around.
So you may be technically correct and within your rights to keep doing what you're doing (however, you may want to check local laws because many places do have a "don't have a bunch of crap in your yard" policy), however, you're going to keep getting static if you do.
If the clothesline/picnic table/etc., is that important to you, you may want to consider a more rural area where that would be tolerated/ignored.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
I mean, there's "I have kids" messy and there's "this is unsafe and I am legally obligated to report it" messy, you may want to get a non-biased set of eyes on it.
Assuming you don't live in a hovel, it sounds to me like you're not used to how things work in the suburbs. What you're doing would be fine and dandy out in a more rural area but in the suburbs, people care about/are obsessed with their front yards and, sad to say, you're That Neighbor with a bunch of crap in your yard and potentially bringing down property values because many suburban people WANT to live in a place with nice, neat houses without a bunch of crap in the front yard not comfy houses with stuff all willy nilly and a bunch of kids running around.
So you may be technically correct and within your rights to keep doing what you're doing (however, you may want to check local laws because many places do have a "don't have a bunch of crap in your yard" policy), however, you're going to keep getting static if you do.
If the clothesline/picnic table/etc., is that important to you, you may want to consider a more rural area where that would be tolerated/ignored.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 8:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It really is almost impossible to overstate how much suburban people care about lawns, yes.
posted by thelonius at 9:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [15 favorites]
I also believe that clotheslines and swingsets should go in the backyard. Kids playing out front is usually ok, but leaving toys scattered everywhere is not.
I'd also wonder if the kids and/or their toys were ending up in the street. Driving through a group of unsupervised, unpredictable little kids can be slightly terrifying.
posted by jaguar at 9:14 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'd also wonder if the kids and/or their toys were ending up in the street. Driving through a group of unsupervised, unpredictable little kids can be slightly terrifying.
posted by jaguar at 9:14 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think you're totally entitled to use your front yard a bit and that we'd have better communities if people did that. But it's basically shared space. It's like coming to hang out in your living room instead of your bedroom, if you have roommates--you're totally entitled to live in the living room, but if you leave a mess there, you've made a mess for everybody. Worse, in the yard, they literally cannot go pick it up. Don't mess things up for everybody. But I don't see a reasonable amount of laundry or kids playing or just hanging out as a mess, so long as those things get completely put away when they're done.
Being the person in the neighborhood whose kids leave their toys all over the front lawn is basically like being the person in the apartment who leaves their dirty laundry strewn all over the bathroom. The toys should get picked up. The clothes line should get taken down between uses. These things are just basic picking up after yourself. If you do that much, people will be much more tolerant of your obvious presence in their lives the rest of the time.
This one neighbor? Maybe not. Maybe she's just got a thing about that. But if she's saying it, there's probably far more people who're thinking it. People on the whole are more tolerant when you give them fewer things to tolerate.
posted by Sequence at 9:16 PM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
Being the person in the neighborhood whose kids leave their toys all over the front lawn is basically like being the person in the apartment who leaves their dirty laundry strewn all over the bathroom. The toys should get picked up. The clothes line should get taken down between uses. These things are just basic picking up after yourself. If you do that much, people will be much more tolerant of your obvious presence in their lives the rest of the time.
This one neighbor? Maybe not. Maybe she's just got a thing about that. But if she's saying it, there's probably far more people who're thinking it. People on the whole are more tolerant when you give them fewer things to tolerate.
posted by Sequence at 9:16 PM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
Best answer: On preview, exactly! The front yard comes close to being public space, while the back yard is private. Yes, it's your land, but it's also everyone else's view. Making a mess of public space is poor form. Constantly occupying public space is like being that guy who is always in the dorm's common room. (What's wrong with his own room?) It is not illegal, but it can get annoying.
posted by salvia at 9:19 PM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by salvia at 9:19 PM on October 3, 2013 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Wow. You don't get to demand to not see your neighbors, and that includes children. The idea that children seeing her is "running a gauntlet," and that their very presence is a demand for attention that she then feels obliged to give, points to some kind of weird ideas about what her responsibilities to other people's children are. If instead of children, the person waving at her was a retiree sitting on his porch, would she send a note saying "Please stop spending so much time in your front yard, it makes me uncomfortable that you notice and acknowledge me"? No, because that's rude. Just don't wave back.
About everything else -- this is all really, really context-dependent, and you should probably try to stay within the general usage norms of the area if you want to have a good relationship with the neighbors, regardless of objective rightness or wrongness. In the suburban neighborhood where I grew up, for instance, it was totally normal for people to eat dinner on their porches, but putting up a clothesline in the front yard would have been considered weird, probably partly because front yards were small and a clothesline would have been really prominent. Is your front yard small enough that anybody who passes by immediately gets a visual flood of clothesline/play equipment/toys, or is it a big semi-rural lot that everything kind of disappears into? What do your other neighbors think? Do any of them do anything like this?
posted by ostro at 9:21 PM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
About everything else -- this is all really, really context-dependent, and you should probably try to stay within the general usage norms of the area if you want to have a good relationship with the neighbors, regardless of objective rightness or wrongness. In the suburban neighborhood where I grew up, for instance, it was totally normal for people to eat dinner on their porches, but putting up a clothesline in the front yard would have been considered weird, probably partly because front yards were small and a clothesline would have been really prominent. Is your front yard small enough that anybody who passes by immediately gets a visual flood of clothesline/play equipment/toys, or is it a big semi-rural lot that everything kind of disappears into? What do your other neighbors think? Do any of them do anything like this?
posted by ostro at 9:21 PM on October 3, 2013 [6 favorites]
It's awesome that your kids can play on your front lawn, but speaking from experience, here is the reason people dry laundry in the backyard: I promise you one day you're going to come home and find that someone has stolen your clothes off the line, and it won't have been one of your obnoxious meddling neighbors.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:23 PM on October 3, 2013
posted by moonlight on vermont at 9:23 PM on October 3, 2013
You may have every right to dry your laundry, etc in the front yard. However, if the social and neighborhood norms are otherwise, it would be very considerate to consider putting the line in the backyard instead. Good relations with neighbors can be priceless and worth a little compromise.
Kids are kids and should be free to play and explore in their neighborhoods (while being considerate of others's property, of course). But dirty laundry does not need to be literally hung out for all to see.
I have lived with neighbors who have enjoyed enforcing their "rights" that conflict with the culture of the neighborhood. It is unpleasant for everyone, including them. Please consider making adjustments that will not impact your own quality of life, but can also improve things regarding the appearance and livability of your neighborhood - the neighborhood that you share with everyone else.
posted by ainsley at 9:53 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Kids are kids and should be free to play and explore in their neighborhoods (while being considerate of others's property, of course). But dirty laundry does not need to be literally hung out for all to see.
I have lived with neighbors who have enjoyed enforcing their "rights" that conflict with the culture of the neighborhood. It is unpleasant for everyone, including them. Please consider making adjustments that will not impact your own quality of life, but can also improve things regarding the appearance and livability of your neighborhood - the neighborhood that you share with everyone else.
posted by ainsley at 9:53 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
I live in a very groomed suburban (technically, small-city) neighborhood. I know my next-door neighbor would give me the fisheye if I left my grass uncut too long. I wouldn't dream of putting a clothesline out front. But our catty-corner neighbors have a tire swing in the tree in their front yard, and their kids, and all the neighborhood kids, swing in it all the time, and it would be sad if somehow she felt that swing had to be in the back, because then my kids couldn't swing on it.
Your neighborhood isn't my neighborhood, but I think people are in general more into seeing kids on swings than they are other people's underwear.
posted by escabeche at 10:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your neighborhood isn't my neighborhood, but I think people are in general more into seeing kids on swings than they are other people's underwear.
posted by escabeche at 10:01 PM on October 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Geez, reading these uptight comments makes me glad I live in a middle/lower-middle class neighborhood in the PNW. We have several vegetable patches in our front yard and spend a lot of time out there with our kid mainly because it's the sunny side of the house (and we only see sun for 2-3 months of the year). Toys are frequently left strewn about. The neighbors across the street recently had a large inflatable kiddie pool and screaming, cannon-balling child in their front yard--also due mainly to searching out that sunny spot. Another neighbor has a clothesline in his front yard and will take advantage of any sunny day (all year long, even if the temp is only in the 40s) to dry his clothes, including underpants. If anything, we admire him. There are several houses clustered in our neighborhood that are painted completely black and have skulls mounted over their doorways and animal bone wind chimes hanging from their eaves. We love those crazy demon houses. I realize I sound holier than thou, but I guess I'm really just trying to illustrate the importance of "context" as others have pointed out. I can get away with all of the stuff you mention in my neighborhood and much more for a number of reasons (demographics mainly), but you may not be able to...I'm sorry so many people need to live in a suburban hell where front yards are considered public spaces that need to be kept "tidy." I grew up in a place like that, and if I were to move just a few miles away from my current address, I'd find myself in the same situation.
posted by bennett being thrown at 10:02 PM on October 3, 2013 [38 favorites]
posted by bennett being thrown at 10:02 PM on October 3, 2013 [38 favorites]
I grew up in the country, in an area with more sheep than people, and the local custom was universally "clotheslines in the backyard" there. It's hardly a "suburban hell" thing in my experience.
That said, if you were my neighbor and your clothesline bugged me, I'd put up a fence or a hedge or something, because that would be my problem to address.
I do wonder what's going on in your backyard, though. If you're just letting it go to wilderness, people might have reasonable concerns about it becoming a habitat for skunks or something, but then again the reasonable thing to do would be to talk directly and specifically to you about it.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:25 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
That said, if you were my neighbor and your clothesline bugged me, I'd put up a fence or a hedge or something, because that would be my problem to address.
I do wonder what's going on in your backyard, though. If you're just letting it go to wilderness, people might have reasonable concerns about it becoming a habitat for skunks or something, but then again the reasonable thing to do would be to talk directly and specifically to you about it.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:25 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Based on your previous questions, it seems like possibly you are in a very different economic situation from your neighbors--you mentioned one in particular being exceedingly wealthy. Whereas--and no offense meant!--children's toys and clotheslines do read somewhat working-class. This, combined with your neighbor's comments about the inside of your house...something is pinging my "class conflict" or "old money/new money" sense.
Are you on the East Coast? Are you from there? Have you always basically lived in a place like this, or are you a newbie?
Reasonable people differ on whether or not these sorts of thing actually qualify as Wrong To Do. I fall on the side of "not," having been raised in a front yard culture. (No clotheslines, it was a little urban for that, but kids? in backyards? What're you gonna do in a backyard? You can't play roller-badminton in a backyard. Sheesh.) But they seem to qualify as Not The Done Thing in your neighborhood. The considerate thing would be to modulate your behavior/decor in the direction of (not to the letter of) the prevailing norms.
Your neighbor's ill-mannered tirade about "some people's children" and "maximally admired" and so forth...does not bear mentioning. It is unspeakably rude. Miss Manners would advise you not to respond in kind, but to give this person a wide berth.
posted by like_a_friend at 10:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
Are you on the East Coast? Are you from there? Have you always basically lived in a place like this, or are you a newbie?
Reasonable people differ on whether or not these sorts of thing actually qualify as Wrong To Do. I fall on the side of "not," having been raised in a front yard culture. (No clotheslines, it was a little urban for that, but kids? in backyards? What're you gonna do in a backyard? You can't play roller-badminton in a backyard. Sheesh.) But they seem to qualify as Not The Done Thing in your neighborhood. The considerate thing would be to modulate your behavior/decor in the direction of (not to the letter of) the prevailing norms.
Your neighbor's ill-mannered tirade about "some people's children" and "maximally admired" and so forth...does not bear mentioning. It is unspeakably rude. Miss Manners would advise you not to respond in kind, but to give this person a wide berth.
posted by like_a_friend at 10:45 PM on October 3, 2013 [5 favorites]
I think it's important to contextualise this is only two neighbours. And the first one sounds reasonably cool. The second one sounds a bit crazy to me - or even a lot crazy. But who knows? I can't see your house, your kids, your yard from here. Personally I'd chalk her up to crazy and be polite but whatevers to her going forward. Also, communicating by notes to neighbours is a cowardly, dick move in my book if you see them all the time.
I'm pretty much of the opinion that as long as you're front yard isn't full of rotting car bodies, you can do whatever you like in it. But then, different neighbourhoods have different norms. If I were you, I would consider putting up a fence to shut this neighbour up, but depending on your frontage it could get expensive.
It's really up to you how comfortable you feel alienating your neighbour/s. Also, if there a neighbour you're friendly with that you trust? Ask em what they think, gently. If they say you're out of line, then you're out of line - and going against the neighbourhood can be very unpleasant. If they say it seems fine to them I wouldn't sweat it.
posted by smoke at 10:46 PM on October 3, 2013
I'm pretty much of the opinion that as long as you're front yard isn't full of rotting car bodies, you can do whatever you like in it. But then, different neighbourhoods have different norms. If I were you, I would consider putting up a fence to shut this neighbour up, but depending on your frontage it could get expensive.
It's really up to you how comfortable you feel alienating your neighbour/s. Also, if there a neighbour you're friendly with that you trust? Ask em what they think, gently. If they say you're out of line, then you're out of line - and going against the neighbourhood can be very unpleasant. If they say it seems fine to them I wouldn't sweat it.
posted by smoke at 10:46 PM on October 3, 2013
I would be very annoyed about a neighbor putting their laundry lines in the front yard. I never would say anything about it, but it would irk me. This isn't because I think front yards should be pristine showcases, but instead because laundry just isn't something one should invite one's neighbors to see. I don't want to feel like I'm involved in someone else's laundry process every time I drive by their house. So, I would advise you to move your laundry lines to your backyard, unless that's just completely impossible for some reason you didn't explain. I don't see what harm it does to you, it seems like simple manners to me, and you know already at least one neighbor is a little unhappy about it.
Beyond that, however, it seems like Neighbor B has done you a favor. She has made it very clear that she's a little weird and nosy and isn't someone you want in your life. It would be a good idea to structure your and your children's outside space/time to have as little contact with her as possible. The point isn't to cave into her demands or anything. Instead, the point is just to do what you have to do to keep your path as far away from hers as possible. Live your life so you don't have to worry about her involving herself in it.
posted by meese at 11:03 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Beyond that, however, it seems like Neighbor B has done you a favor. She has made it very clear that she's a little weird and nosy and isn't someone you want in your life. It would be a good idea to structure your and your children's outside space/time to have as little contact with her as possible. The point isn't to cave into her demands or anything. Instead, the point is just to do what you have to do to keep your path as far away from hers as possible. Live your life so you don't have to worry about her involving herself in it.
posted by meese at 11:03 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh the clothesline issue. Some people have all kinds of (mostly class related) hangups about clotheslines. For me, for my own comfort I'd have my clothesline in the back yard, but if a neighbor had it in the front I'd just shrug and mind my own business.
As for the kid/toys thing, that's just nuts. It's your property, and I find it kind of weird that someone thinks that children should be relegated to the back yard, like they are unsightly nuisances. Maybe provide a bin for the kiddies to put toys in, but other than that, if someone doesn't like your children looking or waving at them, that is solely their problem.
posted by katyggls at 11:05 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
As for the kid/toys thing, that's just nuts. It's your property, and I find it kind of weird that someone thinks that children should be relegated to the back yard, like they are unsightly nuisances. Maybe provide a bin for the kiddies to put toys in, but other than that, if someone doesn't like your children looking or waving at them, that is solely their problem.
posted by katyggls at 11:05 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I live in a middle-class moderately dense (6 lots to the acre) suburb in the PNW. Everybody's children play in all the kid front yards (that is to say, all the houses with children) all the time. Some families put the toys away every day, some don't; our next door neighbors frequently have all kinds of balls and frisbees and stuff out in their yard for people to play with all the time. The idea that nobody should play in the front yard is stultifying to me; one of the best things is when kids can just "go play." The front yard is where you interface with the community; how can you do that if you're never there?
Move your clothesline to the back, tell your kids not to bother the across the street neighbor, mmmmaaaayybe get a friend in to tell you honestly if your house is too messy to cope with, and apart from that roll your eyes and carry on with your life.
posted by KathrynT at 11:06 PM on October 3, 2013 [11 favorites]
Move your clothesline to the back, tell your kids not to bother the across the street neighbor, mmmmaaaayybe get a friend in to tell you honestly if your house is too messy to cope with, and apart from that roll your eyes and carry on with your life.
posted by KathrynT at 11:06 PM on October 3, 2013 [11 favorites]
Best answer: In my semi-suburban neighborhood it is not uncommon for a lot of the activities you mention to be in the front yard and no one thinks anything of it. Swing sets, picnic tables, slides, hammocks, and other kids play equipment are in full view.
However, with that said, if I were you I would move the clothesline to the back yard, and make an effort to corral the toys at the end of the day into a bin or basket. (I have vivid memories of my mother working with me at a very young age to play "cleanup train" to gather up all my stuff right before dinnertime.) You might indeed consider a fence, just to better delineate your yard as your own and your kids space.
In other words, I'm agreeing with KathrynT, on this: Move your clothesline to the back, tell your kids not to bother the across the street neighbor, mmmmaaaayybe get a friend in to tell you honestly if your house is too messy to cope with, and apart from that roll your eyes and carry on with your life.
posted by gudrun at 11:20 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
However, with that said, if I were you I would move the clothesline to the back yard, and make an effort to corral the toys at the end of the day into a bin or basket. (I have vivid memories of my mother working with me at a very young age to play "cleanup train" to gather up all my stuff right before dinnertime.) You might indeed consider a fence, just to better delineate your yard as your own and your kids space.
In other words, I'm agreeing with KathrynT, on this: Move your clothesline to the back, tell your kids not to bother the across the street neighbor, mmmmaaaayybe get a friend in to tell you honestly if your house is too messy to cope with, and apart from that roll your eyes and carry on with your life.
posted by gudrun at 11:20 PM on October 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Non Amerrican here and my brain boggles as to why anyone would care where your washing line was kept! My only problem would be if I left my washing out front it would get nicked. Enjoy your front garden, it sounds lovely!
posted by jujulalia at 11:32 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by jujulalia at 11:32 PM on October 3, 2013 [3 favorites]
Australian here: I've never seen anyone put up their clothesline in the front yard, and anywhere I've lived, the neighbours would Not Be Happy. It looks messy and it's TMI (I don't want to see your underwear). So yes, move the clothesline.
Kids playing out the front? Meh. Unless there are busted toys strewn everywhere 24/7 (see above: eyesore), neighbour is being unreasonable. Nothing wrong with kids enjoying their own front yard.
(On preview: assuming there's not a safety issue. I must have missed that in the OP. If there is, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.)
posted by Salamander at 11:58 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Kids playing out the front? Meh. Unless there are busted toys strewn everywhere 24/7 (see above: eyesore), neighbour is being unreasonable. Nothing wrong with kids enjoying their own front yard.
(On preview: assuming there's not a safety issue. I must have missed that in the OP. If there is, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.)
posted by Salamander at 11:58 PM on October 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Wait, is the issue that your kids are playing in the front yard, or is the issue that you've got a swing set, sandbox, jungle gym, or other play equipment installed in the front yard?
I would think it weird if I had a neighbor who, despite having plenty of space including a proper back yard, chose to install kids' play equipment and a clothesline in the front yard. I don't know that I'd complain about it, and of course in real life who the fuck even cares how you divvy up your own property, but yeah, it is definitely unusual. I mean, what are you using the backyard for? Your menagerie? A sex dungeon?
All the rest of it? Feh. Ignore the crazy.
(That said if you asked me to cat-sit while you were out of town and never told me where the litterbox was, I'd think it was weird and wonder where the hell the cat was going to the bathroom if there was no litterbox, and if there is a litterbox how is it getting cleaned if you neglected to tell me about it?)
posted by Sara C. at 12:06 AM on October 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
I would think it weird if I had a neighbor who, despite having plenty of space including a proper back yard, chose to install kids' play equipment and a clothesline in the front yard. I don't know that I'd complain about it, and of course in real life who the fuck even cares how you divvy up your own property, but yeah, it is definitely unusual. I mean, what are you using the backyard for? Your menagerie? A sex dungeon?
All the rest of it? Feh. Ignore the crazy.
(That said if you asked me to cat-sit while you were out of town and never told me where the litterbox was, I'd think it was weird and wonder where the hell the cat was going to the bathroom if there was no litterbox, and if there is a litterbox how is it getting cleaned if you neglected to tell me about it?)
posted by Sara C. at 12:06 AM on October 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
Personally I think it's insane that neighbours would object to clothes-drying or playing kids in your own front garden on an acre of land, but I am not in the US and clearly this is much more of A Thing in your community, so maybe humour them by at least moving the clothesline to the back and getting the kids to pick up their toys.
That said, I think you seriously need to consider the possibility that at its heart this isn't about clothes or toys at all. It sounds like your neighbour was fine until she was inside your house. This is something you need to dig a little deeper into, because when 'VERY MESSY' gets to mandatory reporting levels, that goes beyond toys left out and a litter box in the garage rather than the house. Either she's unreasonably fussy about normal levels of mess, or your house is in a much, much worse state than it may presently seem to you.
posted by Catseye at 12:23 AM on October 4, 2013 [12 favorites]
That said, I think you seriously need to consider the possibility that at its heart this isn't about clothes or toys at all. It sounds like your neighbour was fine until she was inside your house. This is something you need to dig a little deeper into, because when 'VERY MESSY' gets to mandatory reporting levels, that goes beyond toys left out and a litter box in the garage rather than the house. Either she's unreasonably fussy about normal levels of mess, or your house is in a much, much worse state than it may presently seem to you.
posted by Catseye at 12:23 AM on October 4, 2013 [12 favorites]
For everyone asking 'is this the same house as the last question?': no, because in this question the OP says "we moved to a new house last year", and the last question is from 2011.
posted by jacalata at 12:47 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by jacalata at 12:47 AM on October 4, 2013
Best answer: I'm firmly on the side of it's okay to live differently from the neighbors and aesthetic value does not take priority over use value. I'm also a bit of an ideologue on this because my urban planning seminar on land use literally just covered how restrictive covenants and HOA-type restrictions have been used for all sorts of grody, classist, racist exclusionary ends.
That said, getting along with neighbors seems like an important thing to you as well, so if there are some compromises or changes you can make to signal to those two neighbors that you want to fit in, that's also okay. My neighbors have four kids ranging in age from 1.5 to 7, and they leave balls, toy trucks, skateboards, from time to time on the shared walkway and sometimes on our side of the building. I think it's no big deal and I hear the parents tell the kids to clean up after themselves, but the kids don't always remember.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:00 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
That said, getting along with neighbors seems like an important thing to you as well, so if there are some compromises or changes you can make to signal to those two neighbors that you want to fit in, that's also okay. My neighbors have four kids ranging in age from 1.5 to 7, and they leave balls, toy trucks, skateboards, from time to time on the shared walkway and sometimes on our side of the building. I think it's no big deal and I hear the parents tell the kids to clean up after themselves, but the kids don't always remember.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:00 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Does your question give a 100% accurate assessment of the interior of your house--toys don't get picked up and it's hard to find the cat box? If so, the woman's reaction sounds straight up insane. Saying "I might need to report you to child services" to a parent is like...I don't know what. That's a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to say. Is she unwell? Because the only reason I can see someone rationally saying that is if they stumbled upon an interior that is far worse than what you're describing - that is, unsafe or unhealthy. Not messy, and not that the cat's bathroom isn't in the open.
So what the fuck is going on?
For what it's worth, I wouldn't complain to a person about laundry hanging in the front yard in a million years. I wouldn't even complain about it privately to Mr. Llama. But as I drove down my tree-lined street to my carefully landscaped yard, which I possess in this total fantasy even though in reality I live in the woods where I don't have to deal with this shit, I might say to myself 'Jeez, I wish they'd put their laundry in the back.'
So yeah, sometimes, it's nice to keep your house kind of tidy for the neighbors. It's an environment you all share together. My parents have this big plastic bin in the backyard for the grandkids' toys. It's waterproof and kind of looks like a bench, but it seems kind of a nice way to keep orange and yellow plastic toys from rolling all over your yard like a toy store exploded, if you're interested in a low impact way to keep it a little tidier.
If all is exactly as you described, then your neighbors are assholes, really, and possibly crazy, and you should do as mentioned above and be unfailingly polite and avoid them as much as possible.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:02 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
So what the fuck is going on?
For what it's worth, I wouldn't complain to a person about laundry hanging in the front yard in a million years. I wouldn't even complain about it privately to Mr. Llama. But as I drove down my tree-lined street to my carefully landscaped yard, which I possess in this total fantasy even though in reality I live in the woods where I don't have to deal with this shit, I might say to myself 'Jeez, I wish they'd put their laundry in the back.'
So yeah, sometimes, it's nice to keep your house kind of tidy for the neighbors. It's an environment you all share together. My parents have this big plastic bin in the backyard for the grandkids' toys. It's waterproof and kind of looks like a bench, but it seems kind of a nice way to keep orange and yellow plastic toys from rolling all over your yard like a toy store exploded, if you're interested in a low impact way to keep it a little tidier.
If all is exactly as you described, then your neighbors are assholes, really, and possibly crazy, and you should do as mentioned above and be unfailingly polite and avoid them as much as possible.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:02 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: First, just go talk to her and try to make peace. Stop with the notes already.
The fact that you're asking if you should stop being annoying neighbors indicates that on some level, you know that you're being annoying.
From your description, your front yard seems messy (a laundry line? yeah...considered low-rent in the suburbs), so clean it up and move your things to the back. Put up a fence. It's a nice, neighborly thing to do.
As far as the court-mandated nonsense and her note (see what happens when we don't talk to people? we write crazy notes instead) about being in a difficult position, it seems like she's overstating her case because she's pretty frustrated with you.
But speaking as a court-mandated reporter, the first thing you need to know is that in most states, anyone who has suspicions of child abuse can report but yeah, people like police, teachers, social workers, etc. are mandated to report because we can get into trouble if we don't report suspicions and then something bad happens to a kid. But anybody can file. Anyway, it appears that she's frustrated and she's overstating her case. If she felt your kids were in danger, she'd just report it. You haven't put her in a difficult position. She's just upset. Really upset. Like, you should put up a fence and keep away from her upset.
Let's say she does file. What happens is she makes a call to your local child services bureau and from her information the call would either be screened out or a caseworker would be assigned to investigate.
From your description (your kids aren't in imminent danger, they don't appear dirty or malnourished or abused), the call would be screened out and nothing would happen.
But I'd try to think about her perspective a bit. Is your yard unsightly? Is your home really dirty or messy? A little bit of cleaning may be in order.
And there's really nothing wrong with teaching your kids to put their crap away when they're done playing.
posted by kinetic at 3:32 AM on October 4, 2013
The fact that you're asking if you should stop being annoying neighbors indicates that on some level, you know that you're being annoying.
From your description, your front yard seems messy (a laundry line? yeah...considered low-rent in the suburbs), so clean it up and move your things to the back. Put up a fence. It's a nice, neighborly thing to do.
As far as the court-mandated nonsense and her note (see what happens when we don't talk to people? we write crazy notes instead) about being in a difficult position, it seems like she's overstating her case because she's pretty frustrated with you.
But speaking as a court-mandated reporter, the first thing you need to know is that in most states, anyone who has suspicions of child abuse can report but yeah, people like police, teachers, social workers, etc. are mandated to report because we can get into trouble if we don't report suspicions and then something bad happens to a kid. But anybody can file. Anyway, it appears that she's frustrated and she's overstating her case. If she felt your kids were in danger, she'd just report it. You haven't put her in a difficult position. She's just upset. Really upset. Like, you should put up a fence and keep away from her upset.
Let's say she does file. What happens is she makes a call to your local child services bureau and from her information the call would either be screened out or a caseworker would be assigned to investigate.
From your description (your kids aren't in imminent danger, they don't appear dirty or malnourished or abused), the call would be screened out and nothing would happen.
But I'd try to think about her perspective a bit. Is your yard unsightly? Is your home really dirty or messy? A little bit of cleaning may be in order.
And there's really nothing wrong with teaching your kids to put their crap away when they're done playing.
posted by kinetic at 3:32 AM on October 4, 2013
Could the kids be asking her questions that are intruding on her privacy somewhat? I mean, she could just be a crank, but I encounter kids on the regular in my neighborhood who are free-ranging, and they are awesome, but because I look weird (wheelchair) I sometimes get some questions that I can deal with but it's taken years of practice.
I developed an almost aversion to kids when I was bopping around Park Slope, because parents would actively encourage these questions and I was getting homicidal urges (towards the parents). I dunno, if the lady is getting the vibe that you are not showing your kids how to respect other folks, she maybe flipped out.
Or she is a total crank.
posted by angrycat at 3:56 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I developed an almost aversion to kids when I was bopping around Park Slope, because parents would actively encourage these questions and I was getting homicidal urges (towards the parents). I dunno, if the lady is getting the vibe that you are not showing your kids how to respect other folks, she maybe flipped out.
Or she is a total crank.
posted by angrycat at 3:56 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh, reading your other question, I see the class issues at play. Well, fuck them, but yeah, the kids might get some grief so maybe tell them 'When in Rome' and move shop to the back yard.
posted by angrycat at 4:00 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by angrycat at 4:00 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Her being annoyed is not automatically because you're doing something annoying. Remember that.
Sure, teach your kids to keep their distance, make sure they're staying on your property, and then? Ignore the rest. She may WANT you to treat your front yard like public space, but it's not. It's your property, and and if you're happy with your lifestyle and everyone in your family is safe and no laws are being broken, then just keep on and give her the distance she clearly wants.
posted by lemniskate at 4:13 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sure, teach your kids to keep their distance, make sure they're staying on your property, and then? Ignore the rest. She may WANT you to treat your front yard like public space, but it's not. It's your property, and and if you're happy with your lifestyle and everyone in your family is safe and no laws are being broken, then just keep on and give her the distance she clearly wants.
posted by lemniskate at 4:13 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Is hanging laundry in the front yard inconsiderate?
Yes. The only time it wouldn't be is if other people in the neighborhood also used their front yards in a similar manner.
How about children playing in the front yard?
Playing is fine. Engaging every passerby is not. It is hard to articulate, but there is a difference between using a shared area and monopolizing a shared area. As a neighbor, I should have no expectation to never see you or your children. But I should be able to have an expectation that they will leave me alone. The mere act of walking my dog or arriving home is not an invitation for the neighbors to come visit.
(And by shared area, I think most of us mean that figuratively, not literally. Your front yard is your own, but the "streetspace" that the front yards are a part of is shared/communal. Doubly so if there are back yards available for the same activities.)
How about kids leaving their toys in the front yard?
Yes, this is inconsiderate. It looks terrible. But regardless of what it looks like or what the neighbors think, this should be a priority for you. It is just going to get worse if you aren't teaching your kids to clean up after themselves.
posted by gjc at 4:25 AM on October 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
Yes. The only time it wouldn't be is if other people in the neighborhood also used their front yards in a similar manner.
How about children playing in the front yard?
Playing is fine. Engaging every passerby is not. It is hard to articulate, but there is a difference between using a shared area and monopolizing a shared area. As a neighbor, I should have no expectation to never see you or your children. But I should be able to have an expectation that they will leave me alone. The mere act of walking my dog or arriving home is not an invitation for the neighbors to come visit.
(And by shared area, I think most of us mean that figuratively, not literally. Your front yard is your own, but the "streetspace" that the front yards are a part of is shared/communal. Doubly so if there are back yards available for the same activities.)
How about kids leaving their toys in the front yard?
Yes, this is inconsiderate. It looks terrible. But regardless of what it looks like or what the neighbors think, this should be a priority for you. It is just going to get worse if you aren't teaching your kids to clean up after themselves.
posted by gjc at 4:25 AM on October 4, 2013 [8 favorites]
I don't think this is strictly a classist thing, because I grew up in a firmly working-class blue collar neighborhood and clotheslines, sandboxes, outdoor toys, picnic benches and the like were kept behind the houses.
posted by kimberussell at 4:55 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by kimberussell at 4:55 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm not too uptight about most things, but a former neighbor used to hang her clothes in a spot (directly and largely) visible from every window at the back of our place, plus our small terrace, so the view from the kitchen, and my office/bedroom, and when sitting out on our terrace (so all the places where I am about 90% of daylight hours) was mainly her laundry when she had it out... which, okay, that wouldn't bug me so much, but she would leave it out for days at a time, and then it would rain, which meant that it got wet all over again, so the same laundry would be out for a few more days -- and it often went through multiple iterations of that. So, yeah, that was a whole lot of "neighbor's laundry as the constant view," and bothered me quite a bit, since the reason we chose the place we live is because of the pleasant setting/view. And there were also three other spots where she could have easily hung her clothes to dry outside, so that was a thing that compounded my irritation.
So, you might try to picture what your neighbors are seeing when they look out their main windows. Is it an eyeful of hanging laundry and a lot of scattered toys, dishes and stuff left out on the table under the tree? And does it look this way most of the time? That would pain me as your neighbor if I had no choice but to see this every time I glanced out my window... and I'm no fussbudget neatnik, trust me.
I think you should be able to enjoy your own property in the way that suits you the most, and also be able to accommodate reasonable concerns about what the neighbors need to endure for you to be able to do this. So, if you could afford it, a fence or hedges around the front, and leave everything as is, or, if not, maybe move the clothes line to the back, and have the kids pick up their toys when they finish playing outside? Clear off your picnic table as you move back inside, if you are already aren't.
I'm inclined to think your neighbor might be overreacting or exaggerating based on the "gauntlet" thing, but that, too, may depend. My same laundry neighbor used to also get on my nerves because she always wanted to chat (well, not so much "chat," as relentlessly bend my ear; it wasn't really a mutual chat) for extended periods whenever we would cross paths at all (or even not; she also used to just come to my door to complain about her boyfriend, or complain about her friend, or complain about our landlady, etc.; it was weird). I can't really imagine feeling that way about kids, but there are scenarios where this could be the case, as angrycat describes. Kids waving and saying "hi"? Totally cute and wtf why is that a big deal? Kids asking for stuff (I don't know, to see/pet/play with the dog? or something?) or demanding a lot of attention every time you step out or come home could be a bother.
I have no problem seeing this from two points of view: you are mostly fine and a couple of small corrections in making the front yard just a little more tidy is all a reasonable person should expect... or, you have some habits and practices that are sort of invisible to you that are really impacting your neighbors' quality of life to at least some degree. We don't really have enough info to make an accurate assessment, but you may have a clearsighted, plainspoken friend who does, and if so, I'd ask them for their completely objective opinion.
posted by taz at 5:01 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
So, you might try to picture what your neighbors are seeing when they look out their main windows. Is it an eyeful of hanging laundry and a lot of scattered toys, dishes and stuff left out on the table under the tree? And does it look this way most of the time? That would pain me as your neighbor if I had no choice but to see this every time I glanced out my window... and I'm no fussbudget neatnik, trust me.
I think you should be able to enjoy your own property in the way that suits you the most, and also be able to accommodate reasonable concerns about what the neighbors need to endure for you to be able to do this. So, if you could afford it, a fence or hedges around the front, and leave everything as is, or, if not, maybe move the clothes line to the back, and have the kids pick up their toys when they finish playing outside? Clear off your picnic table as you move back inside, if you are already aren't.
I'm inclined to think your neighbor might be overreacting or exaggerating based on the "gauntlet" thing, but that, too, may depend. My same laundry neighbor used to also get on my nerves because she always wanted to chat (well, not so much "chat," as relentlessly bend my ear; it wasn't really a mutual chat) for extended periods whenever we would cross paths at all (or even not; she also used to just come to my door to complain about her boyfriend, or complain about her friend, or complain about our landlady, etc.; it was weird). I can't really imagine feeling that way about kids, but there are scenarios where this could be the case, as angrycat describes. Kids waving and saying "hi"? Totally cute and wtf why is that a big deal? Kids asking for stuff (I don't know, to see/pet/play with the dog? or something?) or demanding a lot of attention every time you step out or come home could be a bother.
I have no problem seeing this from two points of view: you are mostly fine and a couple of small corrections in making the front yard just a little more tidy is all a reasonable person should expect... or, you have some habits and practices that are sort of invisible to you that are really impacting your neighbors' quality of life to at least some degree. We don't really have enough info to make an accurate assessment, but you may have a clearsighted, plainspoken friend who does, and if so, I'd ask them for their completely objective opinion.
posted by taz at 5:01 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Gotta agree with the folks who think most of this belongs in the back yard, not the front: the picnic table, swingsets and slides, other large items like that. ESPECIALLY the clothesline belongs in the backyard; it's got nothing to do with rich or poor neighborhood, urban, suburban or rural: it's TMI (nobody wants to see your underwear!) and just plain tacky.
When it comes to the kids playing in the front yard: c'mon, pick up a bit, particularly if the yard looks like an explosion in a toy factory. And while playing in the front yard is okay, honestly, does everything stay completely within your yard, or does it tend to flow over the edges.... onto the sidewalk, into the neighbors' yards, out into the street.....
Are your kids playing in other people's yards *with* the kids who live in those houses, or are yours just treating the whole neighborhood as their free-range playground? Then teach your kids to respect other peoples' boundaries. Are your kids running around in the street itself? Then we're talking about a major safety issue, and you REALLY need to rein your kids in NOW, before something tragic happens.
Being a good neighbor goes both ways. Yes, you probably can legally have all that junk in your front yard; on the other hand, you choose to move into that neighborhood, so it behooves you to FIT in, too.
posted by easily confused at 5:03 AM on October 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
When it comes to the kids playing in the front yard: c'mon, pick up a bit, particularly if the yard looks like an explosion in a toy factory. And while playing in the front yard is okay, honestly, does everything stay completely within your yard, or does it tend to flow over the edges.... onto the sidewalk, into the neighbors' yards, out into the street.....
Are your kids playing in other people's yards *with* the kids who live in those houses, or are yours just treating the whole neighborhood as their free-range playground? Then teach your kids to respect other peoples' boundaries. Are your kids running around in the street itself? Then we're talking about a major safety issue, and you REALLY need to rein your kids in NOW, before something tragic happens.
Being a good neighbor goes both ways. Yes, you probably can legally have all that junk in your front yard; on the other hand, you choose to move into that neighborhood, so it behooves you to FIT in, too.
posted by easily confused at 5:03 AM on October 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
I can't help noticing that you marked the one "this is totally fine and people are uptight" as best, despite the majority of answers saying the opposite. It's not wrong - people can get too uptight about yards - but consider that the opinions among your neighbors may be divided at a similar ratio.
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:05 AM on October 4, 2013 [19 favorites]
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:05 AM on October 4, 2013 [19 favorites]
Best answer: I live in a small city that looks like suburbs. Based on how it is here, your yard and house has no fixed meaning but would be read differently in neighborhoods separated by only a quarter mile.
In some neighborhoods, laundry lines are hippie flags of honor. They signal eco-friendly habits and they go along with using the front yard in a quasi urban-stoop way, inviting street life. It goes with having chickens roaming all over everyone's yard from anyone's coop.
A quarter mile over, laundry lines would be read as a shocking transgression of tidy suburban norms, and would be read the older way, as a class marker. Can't you afford a dryer? and Are you airing your private business outside? both get conflated into "STOP!"
But I will say that from the hipster to the conservative, EVERYONE has kids playing in the front yards. Everyone. They are riding bikes, shooting hoops in driveways, doing whatever. Of course, in the tidier neighborhoods the toys are picked up at the end of the day. BUt no one says kids should be tucked away out of sight with their toys, so that is not about suburban norms, that is about something else in your relationship changing with how the neighbor sees you guys.
posted by third rail at 5:16 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
In some neighborhoods, laundry lines are hippie flags of honor. They signal eco-friendly habits and they go along with using the front yard in a quasi urban-stoop way, inviting street life. It goes with having chickens roaming all over everyone's yard from anyone's coop.
A quarter mile over, laundry lines would be read as a shocking transgression of tidy suburban norms, and would be read the older way, as a class marker. Can't you afford a dryer? and Are you airing your private business outside? both get conflated into "STOP!"
But I will say that from the hipster to the conservative, EVERYONE has kids playing in the front yards. Everyone. They are riding bikes, shooting hoops in driveways, doing whatever. Of course, in the tidier neighborhoods the toys are picked up at the end of the day. BUt no one says kids should be tucked away out of sight with their toys, so that is not about suburban norms, that is about something else in your relationship changing with how the neighbor sees you guys.
posted by third rail at 5:16 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sounds like you're unfamiliar with some rules of neighbourliness that are completely ingrained in middle-class American culture. The front yard is for show, for curb appeal, it's essentially public, the back yard is private, for family use.
Clotheslines definitely go in the back. But as for the rest of it, I wonder if it's a regional thing. Where I grew up (small-town New Hampshire) all the houses on our street had front porches. The grownups would sit on the front porches while the kids played in the front yard (or in the street - this was a small street with minimal traffic). The subdivision I'm in now (in South Florida), it's definitely laid out for the front yard to be just for show and human activity confined to the back.
posted by Daily Alice at 5:25 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Clotheslines definitely go in the back. But as for the rest of it, I wonder if it's a regional thing. Where I grew up (small-town New Hampshire) all the houses on our street had front porches. The grownups would sit on the front porches while the kids played in the front yard (or in the street - this was a small street with minimal traffic). The subdivision I'm in now (in South Florida), it's definitely laid out for the front yard to be just for show and human activity confined to the back.
posted by Daily Alice at 5:25 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
consider that the opinions among your neighbors may be divided at a similar ratio
Yeah. I live in Berkeley, where no one blinks an eye if you park a Burning Man sculpture in your yard or paint your house with clouds. Local parks are filled with community toys that are left strewn around. I like this about Berkeley. But I'm guessing you don't live in Berkeley or Portland or whatever, and like most other people here have said, the norm in most places in the U.S. is that laundry and toys laying around should go in the back. I think it's a little silly not to be able to use your yard, which is why I suggested a fence. I think it's worth considering your neighbors' (literal) view. Their expectations are likely more in line with local norms, not yours. Why not be willing to compromise a little for the sake of harmony?
posted by three_red_balloons at 5:28 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah. I live in Berkeley, where no one blinks an eye if you park a Burning Man sculpture in your yard or paint your house with clouds. Local parks are filled with community toys that are left strewn around. I like this about Berkeley. But I'm guessing you don't live in Berkeley or Portland or whatever, and like most other people here have said, the norm in most places in the U.S. is that laundry and toys laying around should go in the back. I think it's a little silly not to be able to use your yard, which is why I suggested a fence. I think it's worth considering your neighbors' (literal) view. Their expectations are likely more in line with local norms, not yours. Why not be willing to compromise a little for the sake of harmony?
posted by three_red_balloons at 5:28 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's a difference between kids playing in the front yard and kids expecting interaction from the entire neighborhood. No one feels like always being 'on' for interaction with children and respecting that is an important skill to teach them, along with picking up after themselves.
From the note's reference running a gauntlet every time your neighbor leaves their house I suspect your current setup is intrusive in some way you can't or don't want to acknowledge.
posted by winna at 5:32 AM on October 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
From the note's reference running a gauntlet every time your neighbor leaves their house I suspect your current setup is intrusive in some way you can't or don't want to acknowledge.
posted by winna at 5:32 AM on October 4, 2013 [10 favorites]
This whole thing is pretty weird to me. It's not even really about how you use the yard, but this note-passing back and forth between you and your neighbor debating the finer parts of child-raising and land use. And your minimizing what I think are pretty important issues like the cleanliness of your home/yard is interesting, as well.
That being said, I can relate to the "running the gauntlet" feeling. It's not that you're doing something wrong or annoying, it's just that you're there. All. The. Time. But I'd file that under "My Problem" frankly. Then again, I don't live in your neighborhood and have no idea if your situation is really problematic, but you have issues with your neighbors and that means that there is something to resolve there.
posted by sm1tten at 5:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
That being said, I can relate to the "running the gauntlet" feeling. It's not that you're doing something wrong or annoying, it's just that you're there. All. The. Time. But I'd file that under "My Problem" frankly. Then again, I don't live in your neighborhood and have no idea if your situation is really problematic, but you have issues with your neighbors and that means that there is something to resolve there.
posted by sm1tten at 5:39 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I live in a suburb of sorts in Canada. Take this as you will.
At our house we spend our time in the front yard. Our deck is at the front of the house, and that is where our 6 year old plays. This is totally okay in my books, and this is the norm for my area. HOWEVER, every night we make sure that all of his toys are picked up and not left tossed about all over the yard. That is (to us) a personal pride thing, as well as respect for our neighbours. There is an unwritten, undiscussed expectation that everyone in our neighbourhood keeps their property looking okay and we all keep the benefit of the neighbourhood in mind. People keep their lawn mowed, don't let their plants get insanely overgrown, kids are expected to respect others' properties and not be screaming and making a racket all the time, clotheslines are out back, neighbours are given a heads up before parties that could be loud/late, etc. We have some families that don't have kids, some that do. We have older retired couples and we have young families. Everyone is very friendly to one another, and we have a properly nice neighbourhood to live in because everyone respects and considers everyone else.
Now, probably for some neighbourhoods the way ours functions would be scandelous and slack. For others, it would seem really rigid and controlling. There are neighbourhoods in my city that no doubt fall on either side of that. The point isn't what is right or wrong. The point is to play the game with the rules that have already been in place for many years. The point is that part of living in a neighbourhood is that you have NEIGHBOURS. Yes, you can technically do whatever you want on your property - toys thrown about everywhere, kids running wild, laundry hung out front - but you are seriously just making life harder on yourself. You're creating ill will and resentment from everyone that lives around you. Maybe it isn't fair or right, but you have to learn to play the game. Look around you, see what others are doing. You know the rules, they are telling you clearly what the rules are, but you are refusing to play, so now people are upset with you. The fact that you are not only not playing the game, but are actively pushing against those rules is probably pretty insulting and upsetting to your neighbours. They aren't asking you to only serve your kids organic foods and to wash your laundry by hand. They are asking you to keep your front, publically facing lawn tidy and for you to hang up your laundry out back so that the neighbourhood can maintain the same tone it always had.
Honestly, you seem pretty hung up on what you should be able to do, and you aren't considering what small things you can do to make everyone (yourself included) happier. Tiny TINY effort on your side would solve all of this. Get your kids to pick up their toys from the front lawn before bed. That is, what, 3 minutes a day, if that? (Plus, it is a pretty basic skill and expectation your kids would benefit from learning now.) And you hang your clothes up in the back yard, which would probably take no additional time. Also, look a little closer at how your kids are around the neighbourhood. It sounds like maybe they are running rampant all over everyone's property (hence them feeling like they are running the gauntlet every time they come home). Make sure your kids are treating others properties with respect and allowing your neighbours the ability to have some privacy and personal space.
The problem is that you don't think you should have to, so you are refusing, but you are shooting yourself in the foot. You're fighting a losing battle here. You aren't going to convince your neighbours that all the social norms they have upheld for so long are wrong, nor are you going to win any friends by stubbornly refusing to follow any of those well established (and frankly very commonly held) expectations. I'm not trying to be unkind, but if you are this uncomfortable with what most people consider to be basic neighbourly respectful behaviour, and if you seriously refuse to follow what people in your area consider to be basic, reasonable, respectful rules, then I think you need to consider whether you shouldn't live in a more rural area with less of a neighbour presence, where the lots are bigger and the distance between neighbours is greater. It would allow you the ability to do whatever you wished without the same kind of neighbour resentment. Or maybe drive through neighbourhoods and look carefully at how the other houses in the neighbourhood look/behave, and find a neighbourhood that looks more like what you'd want.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:40 AM on October 4, 2013 [21 favorites]
At our house we spend our time in the front yard. Our deck is at the front of the house, and that is where our 6 year old plays. This is totally okay in my books, and this is the norm for my area. HOWEVER, every night we make sure that all of his toys are picked up and not left tossed about all over the yard. That is (to us) a personal pride thing, as well as respect for our neighbours. There is an unwritten, undiscussed expectation that everyone in our neighbourhood keeps their property looking okay and we all keep the benefit of the neighbourhood in mind. People keep their lawn mowed, don't let their plants get insanely overgrown, kids are expected to respect others' properties and not be screaming and making a racket all the time, clotheslines are out back, neighbours are given a heads up before parties that could be loud/late, etc. We have some families that don't have kids, some that do. We have older retired couples and we have young families. Everyone is very friendly to one another, and we have a properly nice neighbourhood to live in because everyone respects and considers everyone else.
Now, probably for some neighbourhoods the way ours functions would be scandelous and slack. For others, it would seem really rigid and controlling. There are neighbourhoods in my city that no doubt fall on either side of that. The point isn't what is right or wrong. The point is to play the game with the rules that have already been in place for many years. The point is that part of living in a neighbourhood is that you have NEIGHBOURS. Yes, you can technically do whatever you want on your property - toys thrown about everywhere, kids running wild, laundry hung out front - but you are seriously just making life harder on yourself. You're creating ill will and resentment from everyone that lives around you. Maybe it isn't fair or right, but you have to learn to play the game. Look around you, see what others are doing. You know the rules, they are telling you clearly what the rules are, but you are refusing to play, so now people are upset with you. The fact that you are not only not playing the game, but are actively pushing against those rules is probably pretty insulting and upsetting to your neighbours. They aren't asking you to only serve your kids organic foods and to wash your laundry by hand. They are asking you to keep your front, publically facing lawn tidy and for you to hang up your laundry out back so that the neighbourhood can maintain the same tone it always had.
Honestly, you seem pretty hung up on what you should be able to do, and you aren't considering what small things you can do to make everyone (yourself included) happier. Tiny TINY effort on your side would solve all of this. Get your kids to pick up their toys from the front lawn before bed. That is, what, 3 minutes a day, if that? (Plus, it is a pretty basic skill and expectation your kids would benefit from learning now.) And you hang your clothes up in the back yard, which would probably take no additional time. Also, look a little closer at how your kids are around the neighbourhood. It sounds like maybe they are running rampant all over everyone's property (hence them feeling like they are running the gauntlet every time they come home). Make sure your kids are treating others properties with respect and allowing your neighbours the ability to have some privacy and personal space.
The problem is that you don't think you should have to, so you are refusing, but you are shooting yourself in the foot. You're fighting a losing battle here. You aren't going to convince your neighbours that all the social norms they have upheld for so long are wrong, nor are you going to win any friends by stubbornly refusing to follow any of those well established (and frankly very commonly held) expectations. I'm not trying to be unkind, but if you are this uncomfortable with what most people consider to be basic neighbourly respectful behaviour, and if you seriously refuse to follow what people in your area consider to be basic, reasonable, respectful rules, then I think you need to consider whether you shouldn't live in a more rural area with less of a neighbour presence, where the lots are bigger and the distance between neighbours is greater. It would allow you the ability to do whatever you wished without the same kind of neighbour resentment. Or maybe drive through neighbourhoods and look carefully at how the other houses in the neighbourhood look/behave, and find a neighbourhood that looks more like what you'd want.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 5:40 AM on October 4, 2013 [21 favorites]
Maybe you should look at the lay-out of your house and garden, and see if you can organize it in a better way for your family. Or even get an architect to help you do that. Even though you say the disorder in your house and yard, and the laundry in the front yard are the result of priorities, maybe more organization would help you get more space and more quality of life.
This applies to daily routines as well. I remember well the stress and strain of having two small children, but teaching them to clear up the garden and living rooms every night before bed-times takes about a week, and is a life-time good, for you and for them.
Eating under the big tree, with the children playing alongside sounds great. It will be even better for you, and for the kids, if you make an effort to make your arrangement attractive to look at. It's about you, not the neighbor.
posted by mumimor at 6:05 AM on October 4, 2013
This applies to daily routines as well. I remember well the stress and strain of having two small children, but teaching them to clear up the garden and living rooms every night before bed-times takes about a week, and is a life-time good, for you and for them.
Eating under the big tree, with the children playing alongside sounds great. It will be even better for you, and for the kids, if you make an effort to make your arrangement attractive to look at. It's about you, not the neighbor.
posted by mumimor at 6:05 AM on October 4, 2013
In a previous question you said you lived in CT. Do you still live there? If so, here's my answer having grown up in CT suburbs and subsequently lived in CT cities and rural areas (near downtown, though, not on a farm or anything.)
Clotheslines, if allowed at all, should go in the back (or side, whichever is less visible) yard unless you don't have a back/side yard.
Having a picnic table and hanging out all the time eating meals in your front yard: weird and sort of provocative. This is what the back yard is for. If your backyard is entirely composed of gneiss formations or something, that's what the beach or park is for.
Kids playing on the front lawn: fine. Leaving a toy or two on the front lawn sometimes: fine. Leaving a whole bunch of stuff on the front lawn all the time: tacky; lowering property values. Kids playing on the front lawn and being very loud all the time and/or not knowing to leave the busy adults in peace: tacky; bad parenting. (I'm not personally saying you are these things, just that that's how it would appear.)
Not showing your cat sitter where your cat's litter box is: very strange. (This is not location-specific.)
It's impossible to tell from this information whether your neighbor is a whack-job or whether you have a cleanliness/hoarding problem that's far worse than you can see.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 6:13 AM on October 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
Clotheslines, if allowed at all, should go in the back (or side, whichever is less visible) yard unless you don't have a back/side yard.
Having a picnic table and hanging out all the time eating meals in your front yard: weird and sort of provocative. This is what the back yard is for. If your backyard is entirely composed of gneiss formations or something, that's what the beach or park is for.
Kids playing on the front lawn: fine. Leaving a toy or two on the front lawn sometimes: fine. Leaving a whole bunch of stuff on the front lawn all the time: tacky; lowering property values. Kids playing on the front lawn and being very loud all the time and/or not knowing to leave the busy adults in peace: tacky; bad parenting. (I'm not personally saying you are these things, just that that's how it would appear.)
Not showing your cat sitter where your cat's litter box is: very strange. (This is not location-specific.)
It's impossible to tell from this information whether your neighbor is a whack-job or whether you have a cleanliness/hoarding problem that's far worse than you can see.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 6:13 AM on October 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
Just another datapoint: I live in an upper-middle class, older (1920s) Atlanta in-town neighborhood. Our lots are roughly 1/4 - 1/3 acre.
In our neighborhood, kids play in their own front yards and in their neighbors front yards as well. There are frequently toys strewn about the neighborhood. Kids roam pretty freely from the elementary school to each others' houses to the neighborhood park, and we all like it that way.
It's the South, so hanging out on your front porch, waving at folks going by is a standard social activity. Folks young and old are friendly and smile and wave as they come and go, but it is also a very walkable area so lots of that smiling and waving is from people walking by.
Many folks have vegetable gardens in their front yards, and there are certainly sometimes picnic tables in the shade nearby. Even the folks with well-manicured front lawns tend to use their front lawns as family activity areas, especially on weekends.
There are not a lot of clotheslines in the neighborhood that I have seen--we rent and our lease explicitly says we can't hang stuff up outside. But again, Atlanta in the summer is very humid and we tend to have afternoon thunderstorms so clotheslines are not ideal anyway.
It sounds to me like you must live in a place with either a HOA or just some really heavy-duty classist social norms. I would not be happy living where you live, and I would not expect that you can change your neighbor's norms. But I'm definitely on your side in that I would much rather live like you than like your neighbors.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:34 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
In our neighborhood, kids play in their own front yards and in their neighbors front yards as well. There are frequently toys strewn about the neighborhood. Kids roam pretty freely from the elementary school to each others' houses to the neighborhood park, and we all like it that way.
It's the South, so hanging out on your front porch, waving at folks going by is a standard social activity. Folks young and old are friendly and smile and wave as they come and go, but it is also a very walkable area so lots of that smiling and waving is from people walking by.
Many folks have vegetable gardens in their front yards, and there are certainly sometimes picnic tables in the shade nearby. Even the folks with well-manicured front lawns tend to use their front lawns as family activity areas, especially on weekends.
There are not a lot of clotheslines in the neighborhood that I have seen--we rent and our lease explicitly says we can't hang stuff up outside. But again, Atlanta in the summer is very humid and we tend to have afternoon thunderstorms so clotheslines are not ideal anyway.
It sounds to me like you must live in a place with either a HOA or just some really heavy-duty classist social norms. I would not be happy living where you live, and I would not expect that you can change your neighbor's norms. But I'm definitely on your side in that I would much rather live like you than like your neighbors.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:34 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
I do zoning. Your neighbor may be uptight but I can tell you from experience you're on the losing end. I suspect from your past question that you haven't done anything in the backyard and that the front yard was probably put in by the builder of your home. That's why it's convenient for your laundry and kids. If you are in a newer subdivision there is an HOA. You would have gotten the rules at closing if not before. I can guarantee you that your clothesline at least is in violation. Further unless you are zoned as farming (depending on your town of course) you're probably in violation with the town as well. The kids things are different. Some towns allow play equipment in the front, some don't. I suggest that you get yourself to your local planner and find out what's allowed in your town. If you were cited at some point in the future I'm pretty sure you'd lose.
Neighborhoods IMO bring out the best and worst in people. Be a good neighbor and try to work with them. I can't tell you how depressing it is to be stuck in a neighborhood where you're at odds with your neighbors.
The mess thing and the note have already been addressed here.
posted by lasamana at 6:37 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Neighborhoods IMO bring out the best and worst in people. Be a good neighbor and try to work with them. I can't tell you how depressing it is to be stuck in a neighborhood where you're at odds with your neighbors.
The mess thing and the note have already been addressed here.
posted by lasamana at 6:37 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Every neighborhood has Those Neighbors, the ones that do things that are totally bizarre and annoy the rest of the neighborhood. A friend of mine has neighbors that dug up all the grass when they moved in a decade ago and have steadfastly refused to plant new grass and instead have a giant dirt patch in the front. The town keeps fining them but they don't appear to give a damn. You're obviously Those Neighbors in your neighborhood, and while you're probably not doing anything that's actually illegal, I would think you were really grossly inconsiderate if you were my neighbor.
posted by crankylex at 6:43 AM on October 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by crankylex at 6:43 AM on October 4, 2013 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: My house is not a health hazard. An unsuspecting person might impale themselves on a lego.
I did live outside of New England in the Pacific Northwest, and before that in a NJ suburb where there was much more front yard culture than there is here. I had attributed it to the backyards of most of these houses being larger than the front, the opposite of what we have. And I've never understood the prioritization of curb appeal over actually using your property. But I do think that this may be the local culture. We have friends in town who have a big inflatable pool in their front yard for much of the summer; I imagine that this would flip my neighbors out.
We have a next door neighbor who visits us often in the front yard and absolutely loves my baby. We would not get to interact with her if we didn't see her. So I'm conflicted about moving our picnic table.
We will move the clothesline. We will move the monkey bars and the swing set to the side yard. We will strive to put bikes away at the end of use. We shall plant shrubbery. We shall treat this as our problem and not the neighbors.
No more notes. Probably not much more than waving.
posted by mearls at 6:47 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
I did live outside of New England in the Pacific Northwest, and before that in a NJ suburb where there was much more front yard culture than there is here. I had attributed it to the backyards of most of these houses being larger than the front, the opposite of what we have. And I've never understood the prioritization of curb appeal over actually using your property. But I do think that this may be the local culture. We have friends in town who have a big inflatable pool in their front yard for much of the summer; I imagine that this would flip my neighbors out.
We have a next door neighbor who visits us often in the front yard and absolutely loves my baby. We would not get to interact with her if we didn't see her. So I'm conflicted about moving our picnic table.
We will move the clothesline. We will move the monkey bars and the swing set to the side yard. We will strive to put bikes away at the end of use. We shall plant shrubbery. We shall treat this as our problem and not the neighbors.
No more notes. Probably not much more than waving.
posted by mearls at 6:47 AM on October 4, 2013 [4 favorites]
Sorry rereading your question I see you are not in the same house as prior question which I'm wondering if you own or rent? If you rent I'd check your rental contract. If you own go to planners office.
posted by lasamana at 6:48 AM on October 4, 2013
posted by lasamana at 6:48 AM on October 4, 2013
It seems like a lot of her mess concerns might've come from the fact that she saw no evidence of a litterbox. Is it possible your house smells bad and you are so used to it that you can't tell? The smell of a house could really contribute to her having the sort of visceral reaction she apparently had.
posted by wondermouse at 7:26 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by wondermouse at 7:26 AM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe she's afraid she will hit your children accidentally when driving past your house.
posted by cass at 8:27 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by cass at 8:27 AM on October 4, 2013 [3 favorites]
I find most of these responses stunning. Like KathrynT, I live in a middle class PNW neighborhood. The lots are extremely variable - some have almost no backyards, some have 5 foot side yards, some houses are barely set back from the road. Some lots are flat, some sloped. You work with what you've got. People use their front yards. It's normal. Kids play, there are basketball hoops, toys, play equipment, etc.
You are allowed to enjoy your front yard. If you've got a beautiful shade tree, and it happens to be in the front, well of course that's where the picnic table will go. Your kids can play wherever on your property they want. It's yours to enjoy.
posted by peep at 9:20 AM on October 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
You are allowed to enjoy your front yard. If you've got a beautiful shade tree, and it happens to be in the front, well of course that's where the picnic table will go. Your kids can play wherever on your property they want. It's yours to enjoy.
posted by peep at 9:20 AM on October 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
Your followup is good: I think you're making a wise decision.
The other issue though is your kids' behaviour with the neighbours. It sounds like your note-writing neighbour is fed up with your kids, and you don't know what to do about that. I think it'd be a kindness to your kids to teach them to respect other people's privacy. Like, your neighbour is probably fine to wave and smile and chat briefly with your kids, but she probably doesn't want (and probably never wanted) to entertain children while walking her dog every night.
I was an annoying kid who free-ranged through the neighbourhood and enjoyed talking with adults. At some point I think a neighbour complained to my parents, because my brother and sister and I had started hanging around quite a bit in her backyard (because she had a tire swing and a nice dog, and sometimes gave us cookies). My parents sat us down and told us that neighbourhood adults were busy, and sometimes tired from work. That they didn't want to hurt our feelings by shooing us away, and so it was our job to give them space and not intrude. We worked out some rules together about how often we could go over and how long we could stay.
I remember being a little embarrassed at the time, but it was good for me. An annoying kid is cute and forgiveable, but an adult who doesn't respect people's boundaries is going to have all kinds of problems. Now is the time to teach your kids this stuff: they will thank you later.
posted by Susan PG at 9:29 AM on October 4, 2013 [13 favorites]
The other issue though is your kids' behaviour with the neighbours. It sounds like your note-writing neighbour is fed up with your kids, and you don't know what to do about that. I think it'd be a kindness to your kids to teach them to respect other people's privacy. Like, your neighbour is probably fine to wave and smile and chat briefly with your kids, but she probably doesn't want (and probably never wanted) to entertain children while walking her dog every night.
I was an annoying kid who free-ranged through the neighbourhood and enjoyed talking with adults. At some point I think a neighbour complained to my parents, because my brother and sister and I had started hanging around quite a bit in her backyard (because she had a tire swing and a nice dog, and sometimes gave us cookies). My parents sat us down and told us that neighbourhood adults were busy, and sometimes tired from work. That they didn't want to hurt our feelings by shooing us away, and so it was our job to give them space and not intrude. We worked out some rules together about how often we could go over and how long we could stay.
I remember being a little embarrassed at the time, but it was good for me. An annoying kid is cute and forgiveable, but an adult who doesn't respect people's boundaries is going to have all kinds of problems. Now is the time to teach your kids this stuff: they will thank you later.
posted by Susan PG at 9:29 AM on October 4, 2013 [13 favorites]
I'm wondering if the kids playing in the front yard complaint is related to the shared driveway. Is the complainer your shared-driveway neighbor? And is the issue that's not being property articulated that maybe they're afraid of running over kids while backing up? Or that your kids throng around them whenever they exit or enter the house?
Because kids playing in the front yard, that's normal. But the shared driveway may bring up issues that could be addressed by complaining about kids in the front yard, but are more complex than that.
posted by zippy at 10:07 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Because kids playing in the front yard, that's normal. But the shared driveway may bring up issues that could be addressed by complaining about kids in the front yard, but are more complex than that.
posted by zippy at 10:07 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't like having toys in the front yard, it really looks trashy and makes the neighborhood look trashy. I taught my kid from day one to clean up each evening, it's not that difficult.
posted by waving at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by waving at 10:38 AM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Susan PG's comment reminded me of a thing happening at my mom's house. There are neighbors with cute kids, around the age of your kids. They will go outside whenever my mom is in her yard. They peer over the fence and ask what she's doing. They've said the sort of innocent kid things which make it obvious that they've gone into her yard to play. They tell her to stop mowing the lawn so she can look at how high they can jump. Sometimes they'll just watch her, intently. She doesn't dislike the kids, and certainly hasn't said anything to the parents, but "running the gauntlet" is more-or-less how she's described it. They're just being kids, but they're *not her kids*. I'd maybe discourage some of the dog-walking trips, since the kids may just be inviting themselves along on days she needs some alone time.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:47 AM on October 4, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:47 AM on October 4, 2013 [15 favorites]
To me, toys perpetually left strewn around the front yard mean that the owners don't value them highly and that they are easily replaced with more disposable crap.
Also, I was raised lower middle class enough to have internalized that laundry in the front yard was an indication of apathy and/or desperation.
FWIW, if I were your neighbor, these would be the reflexive judgements I would be making about you.
posted by kneehigh at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, I was raised lower middle class enough to have internalized that laundry in the front yard was an indication of apathy and/or desperation.
FWIW, if I were your neighbor, these would be the reflexive judgements I would be making about you.
posted by kneehigh at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
That said, if you were my neighbor and your clothesline bugged me, I'd put up a fence or a hedge or something, because that would be my problem to address.
I wouldn't consider buying a house in a neighborhood where people were hanging laundry in their front yards, even if the house I was interested in had a fence so I wouldn't have to see the laundry line when on my property. A simple swing hung on a tree or a picnic table wouldn't bother me, but one of those brightly colored, mostly plastic playsets definitely would, as would toys or any other objects scattered about. Curb appeal is a real thing, and can dramatically lower property values.
Also, in my opinion cat litter should ideally be changed every day, or at least every 2-3 days. Otherwise your cat is basically spreading urine and feces wherever it goes. Gross.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 12:12 PM on October 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
I wouldn't consider buying a house in a neighborhood where people were hanging laundry in their front yards, even if the house I was interested in had a fence so I wouldn't have to see the laundry line when on my property. A simple swing hung on a tree or a picnic table wouldn't bother me, but one of those brightly colored, mostly plastic playsets definitely would, as would toys or any other objects scattered about. Curb appeal is a real thing, and can dramatically lower property values.
Also, in my opinion cat litter should ideally be changed every day, or at least every 2-3 days. Otherwise your cat is basically spreading urine and feces wherever it goes. Gross.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 12:12 PM on October 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
The only thing I would like to add is that your neighbor pretty clearly doesn't want anything to do with you. I wouldn't bother writing notes explaining the situation, they probably sound like excuses to her, or worse, proof that you'll never get it.
Personally, I like kids, and find it strange that I hardly see them play outside at all anymore. I don't understand when kids and kid noises became an eyesore.
She's overdoing it and letting off steam, but I think this ends your relationship with her beyond occasional chit-chat.
posted by xammerboy at 3:16 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Personally, I like kids, and find it strange that I hardly see them play outside at all anymore. I don't understand when kids and kid noises became an eyesore.
She's overdoing it and letting off steam, but I think this ends your relationship with her beyond occasional chit-chat.
posted by xammerboy at 3:16 PM on October 4, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wow. I would have no problem living next to you. People are so amazingly uptight. Drying laundry is clean! Kids have stuff. I think it's great that you actually use your front yard. So many people treat them like formal living rooms or dining rooms.
I detest HOAs. They seem so invasive. And the whole "lowering property values" thing is crap. Sure, perhaps if you have an ongoing tire fire or meat processing facility in your yard, but laundry and toys, give me a break!
I grew up in the burbs of CT and our house had a much bigger back yard, so we played there, but some people had stuff in their front yards. And it was fine. We all survived it, somehow.
It sounds like your neighbors are pretty annoying and you may be too nonconformist for your neighborhood, so the steps you're taking to moderate things sound reasonable.
Good luck!
posted by reddot at 2:57 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I detest HOAs. They seem so invasive. And the whole "lowering property values" thing is crap. Sure, perhaps if you have an ongoing tire fire or meat processing facility in your yard, but laundry and toys, give me a break!
I grew up in the burbs of CT and our house had a much bigger back yard, so we played there, but some people had stuff in their front yards. And it was fine. We all survived it, somehow.
It sounds like your neighbors are pretty annoying and you may be too nonconformist for your neighborhood, so the steps you're taking to moderate things sound reasonable.
Good luck!
posted by reddot at 2:57 PM on October 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
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This and your previous question about your problems with neighbors have a similar theme -- have you noticed?
posted by Houstonian at 6:44 PM on October 3, 2013 [37 favorites]