my boyfriend's ex accused him of abuse; how to proceed?
September 30, 2013 9:04 AM   Subscribe

In a recent conversation with my boyfriend of four months, it came up that in the divorce papers his ex-wife had served him with, she had accused him of abuse. [Specifically spitting, pushing, and kicking, as well as emotional abuse.] He denies all of it, and says that instead SHE abused HIM, both physically attacking him and subjecting him to emotional abuse. I knew that their relationship had been acrimonious--but this seems like something else entirely.

I can't reconcile the image that I have of him as this tender, sweet, extremely affectionate, loving, gentle guy with the abusive jerk that he supposedly is. I have been frantically googling "signs of emotionally abusive men" and I don't see him reflected there, anywhere. He is the least controlling and least mean person I know, and I've never seen him try to belittle, isolate, degrade, etc. Even when we talked about the issue, which has been causing considerable strife between us for the past few weeks, he has never been mean...we have both just been crying a lot.

Yet, I feel uncomfortable calling his ex a liar. Especially since they have small children together and I don't understand why she would frivolously claim something that wasn't true - after all, if she wanted a divorce she didn't have to claim abuse - and it especially seems strange given that they have small children together and they will have to deal with each other for the next 15 years.

I also keep reading about how "mutual" abuse is a myth and how abusive men tend to claim victimhood rather than admitting to abuse. And I don't understand and I feel like I am in over my head and I am driving myself crazy with this.

I just don't want to condone abusive behaviour. But I also don't want to throw away a really nice blossoming relationship because I jumped to conclusions and blamed the victim and accused him of provoking his own abuse.

So: what do I do? How can I put my mind at ease that he 100% did not abuse his ex?
Any help, advice, insight would be appreciated.

I'm mid-20s/f and he's in his mid-30s, if it matters.

throwaway email: likeanoldsoulrecord@gmail.com

thank you.
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (34 answers total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
Yet, I feel uncomfortable calling his ex a liar. Especially since they have small children together and I don't understand why she would frivolously claim something that wasn't true - after all, if she wanted a divorce she didn't have to claim abuse - and it especially seems strange given that they have small children together and they will have to deal with each other for the next 15 years.

People do all sorts of weird and stupid things under stress. Some people either get bad legal advice or ignore good legal advice and put all sorts of made up things in their complaints or defenses. Is that necessarily the case here? No, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.

I also keep reading about how "mutual" abuse is a myth and how abusive men tend to claim victimhood rather than admitting to abuse.

Again, even if this is true, it is a mistake to infer from the general to the specific here.

So, what can you do? Pay attention. The evidence you've gathered so far suggests that the abuse claims are unsupported.

I know of people who have had their exes pulled over while driving and arrested by giving the cops an entirely fake story and planting some corroborating evidence. It took months and significant legal fees to clear the air and punish the scheming and deceitful party. Don't commit the juror's error here - the fact that an accusation is aired does not inherently give it credibility.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 9:15 AM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


Divorce makes people crazy. People lie or exaggerate as leverage in the divorce settlement, or as self-justification for needing a divorce in the first place, or to get better alimony or child support, or just to lash out because they are angry. They also, of course, may say things that are true, for the same reasons.

There are no 100% guarantees. But you'll be a lot better off taking your cues from the behavior of the man you're with, not from what the ex claimed during an acrimonious divorce.
posted by ook at 9:15 AM on September 30, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yet, I feel uncomfortable calling his ex a liar.

You don't have to do this. Even if you think she's lying, what does that matter to you? You're not required to say to her every time you're in the same room, "You're lying about the abuse."

Especially since they have small children together and I don't understand why she would frivolously claim something that wasn't true - after all, if she wanted a divorce she didn't have to claim abuse - and it especially seems strange given that they have small children together and they will have to deal with each other for the next 15 years.

Children don't generally make divorce easier. She might want more custody than he's ready to give her, or more support; or she might just be convinced that she needs some reason that the marriage failed. No one wants to admit that sometimes, marriages just don't work out -- there has to be a reason. Someone has to win the relationship once it's over.

I also keep reading about how "mutual" abuse is a myth and how abusive men tend to claim victimhood rather than admitting to abuse.

It's not a myth; it just doesn't happen as much as people claim it does. And regardless, he's not claiming mutual abuse, he's claiming that she abused him. Men can be the victims of domestic abuse.

I just don't want to condone abusive behaviour.

Even if he did everything his ex is accusing him of, your pursuing a relationship with this man is not condoning it. If you're only going to go out with people who have never done anything wrong, you're going to spend a lot of time alone.

How can I put my mind at ease that he 100% did not abuse his ex?

You can't. Nor can you put your mind at east that he 100% did not embezzle from his employer or that he's not cheating on you or any of a hundred other things. What you can do is accept that he isn't abusive to you, and you can allow Future You to re-evaluate that every now and then so you don't wake up one day and realize that he really is that bad and has been so all along.
posted by Etrigan at 9:16 AM on September 30, 2013 [8 favorites]


How can I put my mind at ease that he 100% did not abuse his ex?

You can't. Sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling (which seems to be in his favour) and just consider this as a data point. If you have an issue with him later, you don't have to take it as an isolated incident if you have this data point. But you cannot (and need to drop the idea) EVER be 100% sure there was no abuse.

I don't understand why she would frivolously claim something that wasn't true

If this wasn't such a serious subject, I'd laugh at this. Ex girlfriends (and ex-husbands) can be vicious, lying, utterly hurtful people that will say ANYTHING to hurt the person they are leaving or trying to leave. This is a fact of life. Some people regret saying these things later, but some don't and will maintain the falsehood till the end of time. That's just what happens in life. People can react badly to emotional things and you not being able to understand it by breaking it down logically is completely missing the point.

she had accused him of abuse. [Specifically spitting, pushing, and kicking, as well as emotional abuse.] He denies all of it, and says that instead SHE abused HIM

That right there is every but of the justification she may have needed to make up stuff about him (if she did).

abusive men tend to claim victimhood rather than admitting to abuse

Yet you can't imagine it also happens in reverse?

So, every fact or piece of information you have given here suggests that either possibility (She abused him or he abused her) are as likely as each other. You only have your experience (limited though it is) of your boyfriend to make a judgment and it suggests that his perspective has merit. Great. I suggest you give him the benefit of the doubt for as long as he shows no signs at all of demonstrating that kind of personality. However, you'd also be justified in dropping him like a hot rock the FIRST time he showed any abusive behaviour.

You're not condoning abuse by seeing this guy. But you're forewarned. It's easy to forgive isolated incidents, but you have the advantage of prior claims that you can use to judge an incident on its merits perhaps better than most.
posted by Brockles at 9:18 AM on September 30, 2013 [3 favorites]


Divorce can bring out the worst in people and just because someone has young children it doesn't make them morally superior. It is possible that under the extreme stress of the divorce he might have yelled at her and even called her names, and equally possible the reverse happened. it is also possible that she DID abuse him in some way. Some studies show that woman on man domestic abuse (emotional and physical) is about as common as the man on woman type commonly portrayed and thought of as typical.

Claims of abuse are VERY common in custody fights as well and not always based on any sort of reality or based on some fight that comes out during the divorce proceedings (and a mutually escalating altercation during divorce is not abuse, it may be wrong but it isn't any kind of evidence of a pattern of behavior or typical for an individual).

Abusive people are abusive and it always comes out and usually sooner rather than later. How does he behave under stress? Is he quick to blame others or circumstances for stuff he has control over? Your description of him doesn't paint him as an abusive or controlling person. Lots of people get married too young and treat it as box to cross off instead of a mutually supportive relationship. Don't take claims from exe's you don't know too seriously without corroborating evidence. So just keep your eyes open and see how the relationship unfolds (just like you should with all other relationships in your life).

But a warning-treating everything he does as some kind of 'are you an abuser' test is going to poison the relationship. Chances are you have some bad choices and behavior in your past relationship and you wouldn't want that to color how your boyfriend treats you. And maybe the exe's sole motivation in this is to poison all future relationships this guy has (people can be really, really shitty about these things).
posted by bartonlong at 9:23 AM on September 30, 2013 [5 favorites]


It looks like he's openly and honestly spoken with you about this, hasn't exhibited any signs of being abusive, and your gut feeling on him is positive.

Trust your opinion of him until he gives you clear reason not to, and promise yourself that if he does start showing signs of being abusive, you'll split there and then. You don't have to be wary or on your guard or suspicious of him. Just pay attention as you would in any new relationship.
posted by griphus at 9:24 AM on September 30, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yet, I feel uncomfortable calling his ex a liar. Especially since they have small children together and I don't understand why she would frivolously claim something that wasn't true

My ex did this. I lost girlfriends, like you, for the same reasons you are having doubts.

Based on what you're written, I don't think he's abusive. Even if he was, that he is not now and in the future is the important thing. And if that changes in the future, that is resolvable problem, too.

The thing you really need to think on is whether you are prepared to go through what his ex seems intent on putting him through for the next 15-20 years.

Because mine put me through hell. Calls to CPS, accusations of abuse and molestation, neverending legal fees, depositions, motions, and hearings, etc. etc. etc. 20 years of bitter acrimony and bullshit.

And among the things it cost me was relationships with women like you who either had doubts or didn't want to deal with the heartache that only a psycho ex can bring.

So... yeah, it happens.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:25 AM on September 30, 2013 [13 favorites]


How can I put my mind at ease that he 100% did not abuse his ex?

If you don't believe him but you still want to date him, then give it time. Four months is the very beginning of a relationship. Even in the very best of circumstances, there is a lot to learn about a person and it simply takes time. There are all kinds of red flags to look for in a person might become abusive. My ex, however, who was physically abusive towards me didn't give me any indication for a good year that he was abusive. One thing to keep in mind for your own protection is that physical abuse normally escalates from controlling behavior to verbal abuse, etc. You just have to listen to your instincts. If you are having a hard time trusting or believing your boyfriend that isn't any kind of failure on your part. No one here can give you an answer other than you need to decide if figuring this out is really worth it to you, and if that answer is 'yes', then to be careful.
posted by marimeko at 9:27 AM on September 30, 2013 [7 favorites]


How can I put my mind at ease that he 100% did not abuse his ex?

Insofar as you were never there, you can't know 100%. You have to rely on testimony of those who were there -- testimony which, as you know, is coming from two sources which each has an agenda. You can't know. You might find it worth asking yourself what standard of proof would put your mind at ease, and whether you can find evidence supporting that standard.

Also, it's worth having a look at the power and control wheel. There's a lot of stuff on there. It casts a wide net. There are a ton of otherwise decent people who have, at some point in their past, done some of those behaviors. I say this not to excuse those behaviors, not at all, but to acknowledge that people aren't perfect.

In an acrimonious relationship or in other times of great stress, normal people do things that they would not otherwise do, sometimes horrible, unacceptable things. It's possible that either of these people has done some things that you would rightly call abusive. But the same thing is true of literally everybody else.

I say all of this because I think you would do well to focus on the behavior, which is something you can observe, and not on classifying the person, which is necessarily a move with some amount of abstraction and inference in it. It seems a bit like you are trying to determine whether your boyfriend Is An Abuser, and while past behavior can be an indication of future behavior, if the person that you observe gives you no reason to worry, then I think that the abstract "Is He An Abuser" question should be less relevant to your relationship than the "how does he treat me and his kids and other people around him" question.

Having said that, if you do see some of the behaviors on the wheel, you should consider the relationship very carefully.
posted by gauche at 9:28 AM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


You weren't there (and I bet you wouldn't have liked to be there), so it is no good idea to have thoughts about how he might be a liar, in relationship to his past.

Look at it this way: what if his ex is projecting? What tools would someone who is not abusive have, to set things right? Anything else than denial? You simply can't know which version is closer to the truth. What you do have is your own experience of him, and that seems to be positive. That is good.

I agree with others that you could (as everyone should, actually) watch your own relationship with this man, but not by pondering snippets from scripts that belong to his past. Create your own script. Also, try to help him through what obviously is a shitty episode, but without engaging in that past yourself.
posted by Namlit at 9:42 AM on September 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


What does your boyfriend say about the specifics of the allegations, ie does he admit to yelling or spitting or anything that his ex gave as examples of abuse? Or does he say it's all an outright lie?

It's odd to me that, when confronted with accusations of abusing his ex, he would turn it around so completely as to say she was abusing him. Saying they fought dirty or that she's lying about specific behavior of his is very different from saying it's not only all lies but that she's abusive. I'm not saying she definitely *wasn't* abusive, I just find it suspicious that his response to an accusation is to accuse his accuser of the same behavior.

If he has a tendency to blame shift, that might be a red flag in its own right, and it would make me consider whether the accusations might at least have a grain of truth (such as, he might fight dirty or refuse responsibility for solving problems in the relationship, not necessarily that he's abusive). Does he accept responsibility or blame for other things in his life? For example, does he blame others for issues with his kids, or his job, or his relationships with family members or other major circumstances of his life?

This might sound too suspicious and harsh, but if you have even a shadow of a doubt that you can't trust this man not to spit, yell and otherwise be mean/frightening like that to you, then I think you should trust your gut and break up. You like this guy and believe in him, or else you wouldn't be dating -- yet you still worry about trusting him not to hurt you? I think that wariness is something to take seriously, because it's shining through a cloud of bias *for* him.
posted by rue72 at 9:57 AM on September 30, 2013 [12 favorites]


What came of the accusations? Was there a restraining order? Does he have a police record? Does she? Who has custody of the children? Do the visitation handoffs happen under supervision?

Accusations are just that. And although the legal outcomes won't give you 100% assurance either, learning what the court did with those allegations can be another data point for you.
posted by headnsouth at 9:59 AM on September 30, 2013 [5 favorites]


my boyfriend of four months ... in the divorce papers his ex-wife had served him with ... we talked about the issue, which has been causing considerable strife between us for the past few weeks

A few weeks of intensive conversation in a four month relationship is certainly a red flag for me, it sounds like about a quarter of your relationship has become a threesome with his prior relationship an unwelcome addition. This may not be his "fault" though, if you are significantly younger and have less long-term relationship experience. But something about this is not sitting right in your gut and it would do you well to heed what your body is telling you.

Is he actually divorced? If so, the accusations of abuse should have been dealt with at some point in the divorce proceedings (if, in the ex-wife's eyes he is abusive - does he still have access to the children; same for her, if he believes she is abusive, is he protecting the children from her?). If he is not divorced she is not his ex, she is his wife and it is unlikely he is in an healthy place to have a non-rebound relationship until he has closure from the relationship he has with his wife and they have have transitioned into exes/co-parents.
posted by saucysault at 10:00 AM on September 30, 2013 [3 favorites]


Is the divorce decree finalized, or is the case still in progress? It's hard to tell from the question.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:06 AM on September 30, 2013


I have no clue if your guy is abusive, but it took a year plus before my emotionally abusive ex husband began to look like someone other than the sweet, generous guy I fell in love with. Just a data point that it might take more time before abusive behavior shows up.
posted by murrey at 10:27 AM on September 30, 2013 [13 favorites]


How can I put my mind at ease that he 100% did not abuse his ex?


You can't but now it's on your radar. Keep your eyes open. Don't move quickly with this guy. Don't comingle finances, or move in together. Just keep dating.

Four months is too early to know too much of what a person is really like. This is the point in your relationship where you're taking stock of the person and seeing if you two are compatible for the long haul.

Because he's been married and has children, it would be foolish to jump right in anyway. When dating folks with kids, there's so much more nuance in the relationship and questions you need to get straight within yourself.

Don't blow this off, you're right to be concerned. Don't blow it out of proportion.

Keep your head and use good common sense.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:38 AM on September 30, 2013 [4 favorites]


I would not believe a darn thing in a divorce filing. That is not to say it is not true, but a divorce filing is a terrible source for facts. I think you should get to know this man and form your own opinion.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:51 AM on September 30, 2013


There isn't really a win possible out of his accusation; if he was not abusive and she was, that still leaves him as a person with poor relationship skills and poor parenting skills, as I take it it's her filing for divorce and not him and he would have been content to keep his children with an abuser?

It sounds like more drama than anybody needs. The story does not ring true to me (very biased here, having first-hand experience with "abusive men tend to claim victimhood rather than admitting to abuse") and I am having a hard time figuring out what the point of trying to portray his ex negatively to you was if not part of a claim-victimhood-to-deny-abuse thing. Many have focused on the ex's statements, but I find his response more troubling. Ask yourself how such a super-duper wonderful guy ended up in a position where he was repeatedly attacked -- surely such a gentle dude would have had the skills to exit stage left at the very start of it? I am not trying to shame victims, just point out that maybe he's not all that.

It just seems weird that he chose to share his story of being abused with you not as an intimate disclosure, so to speak, but in response to an accusation. Which is in my experience characteristic for abusers -- they only start bleating about their fantasies of victimhood when they feel threatened by the possibility of the truth coming out.
posted by kmennie at 11:20 AM on September 30, 2013 [11 favorites]


Four months is not that long, and abusive men can put up a good face for longer than that. You should proceed with caution as Ruthless Bunny says.

On the other hand, if your boyfriend is indeed innocent, you may ruin a good relationship by insisting on proof that he can't provide (and nobody could provide). Don't forget that either.

Eventually you have to make up your mind for yourself. You can wait and watch, or you can break up.

> Even when we talked about the issue, which has been causing considerable strife between us for the past few weeks

The past few weeks?

I understand your concern, and it is not wrong of you to be concerned, but it sounds like you're making Boyfriend pretty miserable. I do not think there is any way he can 100% disprove these accusations.

Quit dragging it out. If you cannot get to a point of reasonable trust of your boyfriend's story, you need to break up now, for both your sakes. If he is innocent, what you are doing is very cruel, and a breakup would be kinder if you can't get past these accusations.
posted by mattu at 11:40 AM on September 30, 2013


I also don't want to throw away a really nice blossoming relationship

The other way to look at this is: you may not want to stay in even a nice, blossoming relationship if it ultimately won't meet your long-term goals. The dynamic between your boyfriend and his kids' mother sounds potentially very problematic for you.

Specifically, if you are hoping to stay with this guy for the long haul, and are hoping to build a family together -- whether that means having kids of your own, or having his kids be a part of your shared life with him -- you should take heed of what Pogo_Fuzzybutt wrote:

Because mine put me through hell. Calls to CPS, accusations of abuse and molestation, neverending legal fees, depositions, motions, and hearings, etc. etc. etc. 20 years of bitter acrimony and bullshit.

Are you prepared for that scenario?

I understand that it may seem horribly unfair to your boyfriend to view him through such a dark lens, especially if he did none of the things his ex accused him of; but it would be terribly unfair to you to enter into a wicked game that is stacked against you.

Also: if the divorce is not finalized, or he is very newly divorced, I would also add another layer of caution. You are just seeing the tip of the iceberg at four months in, and if there is already this level of high drama (both of you crying!), you may want to consider opting out.
posted by nacho fries at 12:05 PM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


Okay, let's assume that boyfriend is completely in the right here and ex is making up vicious lies to somehow affect the divorce ruling. Let's even go with the assumption that he is telling the truth and she did abuse him. With that in mind, you both are still going to need a good bit of time and understanding to be able to relate to each other in a healthy way. He may have a serious of responses to stressful situations that he developed while living with an abuser, and those responses most likely are not helpful while in a healthy relationship. You both need to investigate therapy as an option to find ways to respond that are helpful and don't feed into that cycle of continuous escalation.

I've dated more than one person who had adopted very unhealthy methods of dealing with conflict because they were with someone emotionally or physically abusive. When those coping mechanisms are removed from the abusive environment they do sometimes look a whole lot like abuse. You both need to be aware of what's going on behind these behaviors, he needs to know they're there so he can find new ways of coping and you need to know they're there so it doesn't surprise you and freak you out.
posted by teleri025 at 12:11 PM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


The beauty of accusations like these is that they can't ever be 100% disproved. Unless they had video cameras on them the whole time they were interacting, there's no proof that it didn't happen. One person accuses the other of abuse, the other person can't prove it didn't happen. He can accuse his Ex, and his Ex can accuse him. You'll never get the proof you want. Indeed, any of your prospective partners could have abused their Exes, and you'd never know. Levelling an accusation at someone doesn't make them guilty. Them having done something wrong makes them guilty, but in this instance, you don't have much proof. They might BOTH be lying. Or they might BOTH be telling the truth. He might be putting everything back onto her because he actually IS an abuser, or she might be lying about him as a way to cover up her own behaviour. Abusive people will look for any way to attack their victim, including making themselves out to be the victim. He's not more likely to be the abuser because he gave you his side of the story.

Abusive relationships are very difficult to get out of, regardless of gender. Much more so if there are children involved - most people will not simply walk away from someone who will likely harm their children.

Can you get access to the court records? There might be some evidence in them that proves who, if anyone, abused whom. Presumably this would all have come out during the court case, and there would be some kind of evidence to back things up.

Trust but verify. Can you get hold of the Ex to get her side of the story?
posted by Solomon at 12:27 PM on September 30, 2013


I know this much: No small number of women who come across as at least a little vulnerable and lacking confidence have asked questions at least somewhat like this --"he seems SO NICE!!!" -- in the course of dating appreciably older men.

Hard to see alternatives to taking things as they come, fleeing at the speed of light if he takes one little step down the dark road.
posted by ambient2 at 12:40 PM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


Do not, for the love of God, contact his ex. Use your own senses here.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 1:04 PM on September 30, 2013 [4 favorites]


The problem is that the same person can portray both roles of tender, sweet, extremely affectionate, loving, gentle guy and abusive jerk. There's no way to tell an abuser just by looking at them. One might imagine that the ex married a tender, sweet, affectionate, loving, gentle guy... who later turned out to be an abusive jerk.

You're in a really rough spot because the objective reality is unknown to you. He might totally be not abusive and the ex might just be saying these things because divorce. At least, when I was in my early 20s dating a man in his mid 30s, divorced with partial custody, I, too, found it hard to reconcile the fact that she divorced him but he claimed she was the abusive, violent one.

And he remained sweet, affectionate, loving, and gentle, right up to the day he yelled at me, spitting and seething with anger, when we were in a car driving down the interstate leaving me no escape. Then he was sweet and gentle again... right up to the day, too, when he hit me.

I believe I did the right thing: not being able to know what actually happened between him and his ex, I listened to what he said and put a yellow flag on the situation. Then, when he started doing these abusive things and blaming me for his actions, I decided that was all the evidence I needed to dump his ass.

If this relationship seems really promising, then by all means, give it a go. But just keep a close eye. I hope that your boyfriend is a better man than my ex.
posted by nicodine at 1:19 PM on September 30, 2013 [9 favorites]


If you want to accelerate getting to know this guy, go away with him for a few days. (Have an escape plan at the ready, and have friend you check in with at appointed times).

Nothing stresses a relationship like a road trip or a mini-break. The veneer comes off and shit gets real.

Is he the kind of guy who freaks out if you miss the turn off? Does he hold you responsible if the hotel isn't up to snuff? Does he take it personally if the Two Michelain star restaurant he insisted on making reservations for turns out to be a dud?

A truly good guy lets stuff roll off his back. "Can we drive through McDonalds," becomes a touchstone of your relationship, rather than an accusation of his inability to pick restaurants.

Husbunny and I got together right before 9/11, and airfares got super cheap and it seems that every weekend we were traveling somewhere. Disney World, Cooperstown, back and forth between NYC and MIA. I didn't matter. He left his tickets at home, no problem, I brazened through the US Airways ticket agent, and got us on the flight. The Super 8 in Oneida, NY, eh, but the Roy Clark show at the casino was awesome!

We learned a lot about how we deal with stress, personal space, alone time and what to watch on TV before going to sleep in those days.

Either this guy is awesome and fun and a person you can trip through the world having adventures with. Or he's a tightly wound jerk who's been holding it all in.

Travel reveals all.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:42 PM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


there is no way to know for sure what happened so you do have to trust your gut, pay attention to red flags and use common sense here. the allegations of abuse seem quite specific. do people usually specify abuse in that much detail on divorce papers? i'm asking because i have no idea. when i think of physical abuse i wouldn't automatically think of things like spitting so i'm guessing there may be some truth to the allegations but as to who was the abuser i have no idea. as rue72 mentioned i'd pay attention to his completely turning the allegations around onto her. has he admitted his part in their fights and overall in the divorce? or is he just claiming to be the victim in every way? does he have a habit of not taking responsibility for his actions and rather blaming others? did he claim abuse on his divorce papers? if not, why not? i realize not all men would want to admit to being abused. why would he be letting his kids be raised by a physically abusive woman? as others here have said either way he has not had a healthy marriage at all so that is a big red flag for you. how does he talk about women he's had bad experiences with in the past like difficult bosses or coworkers? does he belittle them and show contempt?

honestly, unless you think this guy is "the one" for you you may want to be safe rather than sorry and just end it. think long and hard if this guy is worth the risk of being in an abusive relationship yourself as i'm guessing emotional/physical abuse probably can happen so gradually that you're in it before you even realize it.
posted by wildflower at 1:51 PM on September 30, 2013 [2 favorites]


A sweet guy can be an abusive jerk and monster and nightmare. Unfortunately, you'll just have to wait and see, but i would not dismiss anything his wife said as the bitter ravings of a scorned woman. That's stupid and misogynistic. This woman is not hounding you or her ex, and he probably was abusive to her if she's willing to state it on the record. I'd believe her, and just be careful.

Some people can turn very quickly from lovely people into ogres. You just have to keep your eyes open.
posted by discopolo at 2:19 PM on September 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


This is tough, whether or not the allegations are true.

I would pay very close attention to any red flags of an abusive relationship, including the aforementioned power control wheel.

FWIW, it's not at all unheard of for both partners to be committing acts of abuse. (Even when that is the case, women are on average significantly more threatened and less safe than men, although of course there's a different between the average and individual situations.)
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:35 PM on September 30, 2013 [1 favorite]


Court files are full of insanity, especially where there are young children. People can be so desperate to keep their kids from a partner that they will put down what they think is necessary. People who have never gone through a high conflict family file will believe that no person would put certain things on the record -- but they do all the time. They get advice and realize that the ends, to them, justify the means, or they begin to ruminate on certain facts to the exclusion of their role in the situation

(E.g. person x calling person y a "****" did happen but was preceded by person y literally screaming for thirty minutes about an unwashed dish pan -- person y will only report the name they were called).

Some people find lawyers who push certain positions and advocate in an overly aggressive way. It's also extremely common for both people to accuse each other of abusive behavior of some kind during court proceedings where there is a child custody issue.

The only thing you can really do is to take a step back and put on your most objective thinking-hat and to ask him the hard questions: did you do this specific thing, did you do that specific thing. Often in a heap of allegations, there is a nugget of truth. You know the relationship was acrimonious and now you probably need to have him lay out the details. You may hear something that you have trouble with. For example, even if I knew that my partner had kicked a smaller female person who had been attacking him, as egalitarian as I am it would be hard to accept, and even harder to accept if it was the mother of his children.
posted by skermunkil at 2:54 PM on September 30, 2013 [3 favorites]


My ex was a sweet, wonderful guy. Lovely to me. Generous, kind. Three years after we'd been together, he started to show slightly controlling behaviour. Then the temperature turned up, ever so slightly, as time went by. By the time he was into full scale violent, psychological, emotional and other abuse, I couldn't even make sense of what was happening. I was too scared to make reports to police, because I could not even make sense of things - my mind would push away the abuse and all I could remember was the sweet, wonderful guy. And I had so much at stake as a stay at home mom. Call the police on my husband? My kids' dad? I didn't know what to do and it wasn't like he was punching me, right? I didn't have any proof, right? And there was so much psychological abuse, so much gaslighting, so much "you misinterpreted it", "you twisted it", "that never happened" that I couldn't tell which way was up. And if I called police, they could go ahead and press charges and ruin his career, wrecking his security clearance and his ability to travel for work, which would end any chance of child support or spousal support - we needed his income so that I could pay for therapy, help for the kids, housing, etc.. So I didn't go to police. I went through therapy, social services, friends, the education system, my lawyer, etc. I had already left by the time I called police and reported stuff. Middle class and upper middle class women frequently do NOT call police. The financial, social, career and political resources of their partners can make it risky to go through public services or the police. So they pursue help privately. And their abusive partners are often very high functioning abusers, who have enough education/experience to say the right things to police, courts, social workers, etc.

That's not to say your boyfriend was part of any of the above. But you might keep it in mind, even if it helps a friend of yours.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 4:48 PM on September 30, 2013 [5 favorites]


How does he deal with anger and frustration? If he gets really upset at the bank, or with other drivers, etc., start paying closer attention.

Talk to him about how he and his ex- handled conflict, and how the 2 of you handle conflict.

Ask him if she ever got a restraining order. This is not a dealbreaker, as some courts grant them fairly easily, and some spouses use them as a weapon, but it's useful info.
posted by Mom at 11:48 AM on October 1, 2013


You can't protect yourself by determining from this one data point whether he is dangerous, because only time will tell if he's a nice guy or putting on a nice guy act.

The only thing you have control over is your own actions, so you can protect yourself by keeping your eyes open, and promising yourself that if you see any signs of controlling or abuser behavior, you will head for the hills.
posted by ravioli at 5:46 PM on October 1, 2013


My skin crawled reading this. Other than a few details (only one small kid involved, new relationship is a few years old, not a few months), it sounds like you are dating my good friend's ex-husband. I'm trying to imagine how his new girlfriend would know that the handsome, charming, seemingly-disarmingly-honest man in front of her is actually a narcissistic, controlling, abusive person in some situations.

I really have no idea how you would verify. My friend's ex is admired in the community, and if I didn't know the dark underside of his personality via my friend, I would recommend him as a boyfriend/husband. He sure seems like a catch, superficially!

Then, I think of the men I KNOW to be good. Men like my husband, like other friends' husbands. NONE of them have exes who have accused them of anything like this. Even if this alleged abuse is not true, your boyfriend was involved with a relationship that went to a dark, dark place. I advise you to get out now. You haven't invested a ton of time here. You will find someone else--someone with a cleaner slate to work with.

Good luck.
posted by tk at 12:40 PM on October 5, 2013


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