What to do about suspicion for a cheating fiancé?
September 26, 2013 11:59 AM Subscribe
Engaged to be married quite soon. Lots of money already out of pocket, personally and across many other people. Recently confronted with evidence of what, at a minimum, seems to be an inappropriate emotional relationship between SO and another person.
There has also been a broader, relatively long term context of weirdness/secrecy about the SO's relationship to this person, with a suspicious trajectory where someone who was being talked about a lot is no longer being talked about at all, although clearly he is still communicating with this person regularly. Bottom line is that there is enough there that any reasonable person would be concerned (there was a pattern of long-term, mild concern that I more or less out out of my head, but a recent not fully condemning but obviously suspicious incident has put this all back into focus). I'm cosidering confrontation but don't have anything concrete, and am worried that it will just push whatever this is further underground. Stakes are high and the clock is ticking. What would you do?
There has also been a broader, relatively long term context of weirdness/secrecy about the SO's relationship to this person, with a suspicious trajectory where someone who was being talked about a lot is no longer being talked about at all, although clearly he is still communicating with this person regularly. Bottom line is that there is enough there that any reasonable person would be concerned (there was a pattern of long-term, mild concern that I more or less out out of my head, but a recent not fully condemning but obviously suspicious incident has put this all back into focus). I'm cosidering confrontation but don't have anything concrete, and am worried that it will just push whatever this is further underground. Stakes are high and the clock is ticking. What would you do?
Of course you need to talk to him about your concern. How can you marry someone to whom you are afraid to express yourself openly?
posted by Dansaman at 12:03 PM on September 26, 2013 [18 favorites]
posted by Dansaman at 12:03 PM on September 26, 2013 [18 favorites]
Lots of money already out of pocket, personally and across many other people.
No matter how much money is out of pocket, it's less than the cost of divorce. That goes for emotional investment/cost as well.
posted by headnsouth at 12:04 PM on September 26, 2013 [74 favorites]
No matter how much money is out of pocket, it's less than the cost of divorce. That goes for emotional investment/cost as well.
posted by headnsouth at 12:04 PM on September 26, 2013 [74 favorites]
There is nothing good that can come of NOT discussing this. Nothing. Oh, on the surface, it can seem good if you move ahead with the wedding. But despite what Hollywood (and much of the history of drama, for that matter) tells us, weddings aren't automatically happy endings to a story; they're actually beginnings, and those beginnings can be either happy or troubled.
You are expressing serious doubts/concerns/reservations about your fiance's relationship with someone else, which will have a significant impact on your marriage. Dealing with this -- no matter what the outcome might be, even if the outcome is to postpone or cancel the wedding -- is infinitely more important than any sunk costs you have in planning the wedding.
posted by scody at 12:06 PM on September 26, 2013 [21 favorites]
You are expressing serious doubts/concerns/reservations about your fiance's relationship with someone else, which will have a significant impact on your marriage. Dealing with this -- no matter what the outcome might be, even if the outcome is to postpone or cancel the wedding -- is infinitely more important than any sunk costs you have in planning the wedding.
posted by scody at 12:06 PM on September 26, 2013 [21 favorites]
If you can't talk to him now, before the wedding, what makes you think it will be easier once you're married? Don't use sunk costs as a way to avoid this. Like headnsouth says, it's not like divorce is going to be cheaper.
posted by rtha at 12:06 PM on September 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by rtha at 12:06 PM on September 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
There doesn't seem to be any option except having an open and honest conversation about it. Worst case, you have to call it off, and the money out of pocket is the cost of avoiding disaster. Best case, it's not what you think, and you get married with a renewed sense of trust.
posted by Theophylactic at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Theophylactic at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Ignoring the issue won't make it go away. A marriage that has the trust issues you describe would be in serious trouble, and at a minimum need serious work, and you aren't even married yet. I'd recommend discussing the matter with your SO as soon as possible.
posted by Gelatin at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2013
posted by Gelatin at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2013
If you're not ready to talk to him about this, you're not ready to be married to him. I'm sorry to put it so harshly, but it needs to be said. Talk to him about what's happened, and be prepared to end it if it needs to be ended. Keep it as rational as possible and tell him your fears. If he's going to be cagey about it, he's not ready to be married to you.
posted by skittlekicks at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2013 [48 favorites]
posted by skittlekicks at 12:07 PM on September 26, 2013 [48 favorites]
am worried that it will just push whatever this is further underground
Do not marry this person if this is what you have come to expect of him. Do not marry someone just to keep from losing some money or to avoid some social awkwardness. These are extremely stupid reasons to marry someone crappy.
Talk to him. Don't even ask for proof he's not doing it. Say "your relationship with X is worrisome enough to me that I'm considering cancelling the wedding," and see what he has to say.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [45 favorites]
Do not marry this person if this is what you have come to expect of him. Do not marry someone just to keep from losing some money or to avoid some social awkwardness. These are extremely stupid reasons to marry someone crappy.
Talk to him. Don't even ask for proof he's not doing it. Say "your relationship with X is worrisome enough to me that I'm considering cancelling the wedding," and see what he has to say.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [45 favorites]
Say "your relationship with X is worrisome enough to me that I'm considering cancelling the wedding," and see what he has to say.
This.
Why would you need anything concrete? What your gut tells you is enough. And what is he really going to say about this incident that is really going to allay your fears? How forthright he is when given this choice will tell you everything you need to know. Good luck.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:11 PM on September 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
This.
Why would you need anything concrete? What your gut tells you is enough. And what is he really going to say about this incident that is really going to allay your fears? How forthright he is when given this choice will tell you everything you need to know. Good luck.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:11 PM on September 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
I would leave the conversation more open, "Your relationship with X is worrisome". The thing is you have to allow your fiancé to talk and not fill any silences with the 101 thoughts and worries you have. Bring it up and then listen. But yeah, it's got to be done.
posted by readery at 12:13 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by readery at 12:13 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Absolutely talk to him about it. I'm of the opinion that healthy relationships are built upon the ability to have awkward uncomfortable scary conversations, and frankly this conversation is going to happen eventually. Do it NOW before you sink any more money in to a marriage that may not be such a good idea.
Personally, I would want to know. I wouldn't want to find out three years later that all my suspicions were right, and I also wouldn't want to spend the duration of my marriage always wondering and worrying over what actually happened between him and the other woman. Both options suck. Seriously. Go for door number three and have a very serious conversation about it.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 12:15 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Personally, I would want to know. I wouldn't want to find out three years later that all my suspicions were right, and I also wouldn't want to spend the duration of my marriage always wondering and worrying over what actually happened between him and the other woman. Both options suck. Seriously. Go for door number three and have a very serious conversation about it.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 12:15 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
The funny thing about guts is, they're usually pretty smart. Why do our brains often lag behind them? I don't even know. I'm sorry you're going through this. You don't need "concrete" evidence to justify confronting your fiance about this. Don't even worry about the money spent on the wedding- it's gone either way. Your family & friends would certainly understand if you had to cancel the wedding; it's not like anybody would say, ugh, why can't she just marry the guy anyway, I already booked a hotel and bought a new dress!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:18 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:18 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Many years ago, I did not follow my gut instinct. I was worried about people being out money for my wedding, and I followed through with it, even though I had reservations. I wish I had not worried about this, and had not gotten married to him, because I was right. Based on your question, I would talk to him, but understand that your gut is telling you this is not the person you should marry.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 12:19 PM on September 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by Nimmie Amee at 12:19 PM on September 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
worried that it will just push whatever this is further underground.
You can the weight on him: Ask him about to tell you about this person. Then ask him to explain why you should be satisfied with his answers. Ask him, if he were in your shoes, exactly why shouldn't he walk away?
Keep asking questions, and let the uncomfortable silences .... be. Whatever fills them will be extremely revealing.
posted by Dashy at 12:30 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
You can the weight on him: Ask him about to tell you about this person. Then ask him to explain why you should be satisfied with his answers. Ask him, if he were in your shoes, exactly why shouldn't he walk away?
Keep asking questions, and let the uncomfortable silences .... be. Whatever fills them will be extremely revealing.
posted by Dashy at 12:30 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Don't even consider the money spent on your wedding plans. If it turns out you need to call off the wedding, it won't be you the purse-holders are pissed at.
Do not marry this person if this is what you have come to expect of him.
I agree 100%. Which would you rather have to say? 1)"I was all set to marry this guy, and I called it off when I found out he wasn't faithful to me?" or 2)"I knew this guy wasn't faithful to me, but I married him anyhow."
posted by Rykey at 12:57 PM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
Do not marry this person if this is what you have come to expect of him.
I agree 100%. Which would you rather have to say? 1)"I was all set to marry this guy, and I called it off when I found out he wasn't faithful to me?" or 2)"I knew this guy wasn't faithful to me, but I married him anyhow."
posted by Rykey at 12:57 PM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
What would you do?
If I suspected my significant other were having an affair, I would ask them about it. I would gather all the information I could be certain about - all the concrete facts available - and keep them in my mind. I would sit down with them and tell them the following:
1. That (as said above) their relationship with this person is worrisome, and you're concerned about your significant other's level of contact with them.
And that's all. I would then ask for their feedback.
If your significant other tries to deflect ("How did you find this out? Were you spying on me?!"), calmly assert that you understand that they have a lot of questions and that you will be happy to address your own issues once the current conversation has been resolved to your satisfaction. Then press on.
Reveal only that you suspect something is up. Everything else should be phrased as a question. This is very important: Do not reveal how much you know, or how you came to know it. Play as close to the chest as possible. A person will have a much harder time lying to you if they don't know what the right answer is. If your fiance(e) says something to you which does not line up with what you know, point out that you know that what they're saying right now is not true, but do not indicate how you know that. Remove a person's rudder and sooner or later they will have no choice but to either tell you the truth or hang themselves with the rope you've given them.
If, at the end of this conversation, you are not completely satisfied that your fiance(e) is on the level with you, you should probably break things off while the risk is relatively low and you don't have to ask the state for permission to break up.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:59 PM on September 26, 2013 [171 favorites]
If I suspected my significant other were having an affair, I would ask them about it. I would gather all the information I could be certain about - all the concrete facts available - and keep them in my mind. I would sit down with them and tell them the following:
1. That (as said above) their relationship with this person is worrisome, and you're concerned about your significant other's level of contact with them.
And that's all. I would then ask for their feedback.
If your significant other tries to deflect ("How did you find this out? Were you spying on me?!"), calmly assert that you understand that they have a lot of questions and that you will be happy to address your own issues once the current conversation has been resolved to your satisfaction. Then press on.
Reveal only that you suspect something is up. Everything else should be phrased as a question. This is very important: Do not reveal how much you know, or how you came to know it. Play as close to the chest as possible. A person will have a much harder time lying to you if they don't know what the right answer is. If your fiance(e) says something to you which does not line up with what you know, point out that you know that what they're saying right now is not true, but do not indicate how you know that. Remove a person's rudder and sooner or later they will have no choice but to either tell you the truth or hang themselves with the rope you've given them.
If, at the end of this conversation, you are not completely satisfied that your fiance(e) is on the level with you, you should probably break things off while the risk is relatively low and you don't have to ask the state for permission to break up.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:59 PM on September 26, 2013 [171 favorites]
You have an obviously suspicious incident and evidence of what, at a minimum, seems to be an inappropriate emotional relationship between SO and another person.
Talk to your SO immediately and tell them that it's of critical importance that they tell you the full story of exactly what is going on. Then, listen. Don't volunteer info or what you have discovered. There's something there, see if SO will come clean or blow you off or gaslight you. His response will tell you what you need to know, although it sounds like your gut is already telling you that something is very wrong and that your SO is behaving in a way that doesn't properly respect you or your relationship.
It's so much easier to cancel a wedding than get a divorce.
posted by quince at 1:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Talk to your SO immediately and tell them that it's of critical importance that they tell you the full story of exactly what is going on. Then, listen. Don't volunteer info or what you have discovered. There's something there, see if SO will come clean or blow you off or gaslight you. His response will tell you what you need to know, although it sounds like your gut is already telling you that something is very wrong and that your SO is behaving in a way that doesn't properly respect you or your relationship.
It's so much easier to cancel a wedding than get a divorce.
posted by quince at 1:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'd plan to spend this Saturday afternoon sorting this out with my fiancé. This Saturday - not the next one or the one after that. Finish the work week. Eat a good breakfast Saturday morning. Saturday afternoon get the answers you need.
Speaking as someone who bailed on an engagement, let me tell you that people are very kind. And the people who aren't kind get over it eventually. There is nothing so horrible about breaking an engagement that you should consider marrying someone you don't trust. Right now you don't trust your fiancé.
posted by 26.2 at 1:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
Speaking as someone who bailed on an engagement, let me tell you that people are very kind. And the people who aren't kind get over it eventually. There is nothing so horrible about breaking an engagement that you should consider marrying someone you don't trust. Right now you don't trust your fiancé.
posted by 26.2 at 1:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
I was in a situation not completely dissimilar to yours a few years back and here's the bottom line for me. It doesn't matter whether or not he is lying to you, the fact is that you don't trust him.
That may be your problem (maybe you're overly suspicious). It may be his problem (he may be lying). But I am not prepared to marry someone I don't trust, are you?
posted by janey47 at 1:13 PM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
That may be your problem (maybe you're overly suspicious). It may be his problem (he may be lying). But I am not prepared to marry someone I don't trust, are you?
posted by janey47 at 1:13 PM on September 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
Any money spent so far is a sunk cost. An ill advised marriage will cost you much, much more on top.
posted by epo at 1:17 PM on September 26, 2013
posted by epo at 1:17 PM on September 26, 2013
The money is unimportant. What's important is that you can talk to your fiance openly and honestly.
Explain that you believe him to be in appropriately involved with this person. Ask him to help you understand. Then ask if he'd rather not get married. Tell him what you feel. If what you feel is that you are suspicious and can't trust him, then DON'T MARRY HIM!
But you knew that.
As for the awkward part of it, call in your best girlfriends and they'll help you with all the weirdness.
Honestly I'm sure your friends and family would prefer to see you bail on a wedding that's not 100% right, than to go through with it because they already bought a dress.
Seriously though. Don't marry this guy.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:28 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Explain that you believe him to be in appropriately involved with this person. Ask him to help you understand. Then ask if he'd rather not get married. Tell him what you feel. If what you feel is that you are suspicious and can't trust him, then DON'T MARRY HIM!
But you knew that.
As for the awkward part of it, call in your best girlfriends and they'll help you with all the weirdness.
Honestly I'm sure your friends and family would prefer to see you bail on a wedding that's not 100% right, than to go through with it because they already bought a dress.
Seriously though. Don't marry this guy.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:28 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Famous monster's response is probably one of the best I've ever seen on the green, so far as getting an answer out of someone. I think I might save it somewhere just in case I ever need it!
Sadly, I also have to agree with other posters in that it almost doesn't matter what he tells you, is there anything he could say that would make you absolutely, totally comfortable when you know what you know and you've seen what you've seen? You clearly don't trust him regardless and if it were me there would always be that nagging doubt.
Listen to whatever he says but be prepared to be calling off a wedding, you don't trust him. Your gut is rarely wrong.
posted by Jubey at 1:30 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sadly, I also have to agree with other posters in that it almost doesn't matter what he tells you, is there anything he could say that would make you absolutely, totally comfortable when you know what you know and you've seen what you've seen? You clearly don't trust him regardless and if it were me there would always be that nagging doubt.
Listen to whatever he says but be prepared to be calling off a wedding, you don't trust him. Your gut is rarely wrong.
posted by Jubey at 1:30 PM on September 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
Famous monster's response is probably one of the best I've ever seen on the green, so far as getting an answer out of someone. I think I might save it somewhere just in case I ever need it!
Completely agree. It was an amazing response.
posted by cnc at 2:44 PM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
Completely agree. It was an amazing response.
posted by cnc at 2:44 PM on September 26, 2013 [4 favorites]
I've just come back to add that there's something I remembered. I once knew a guy in a similar situation to you (no pending wedding though). He has suspicions his girlfriend had been cheating while he was off fighting a war. Similar to you, her demeanour had completely changed.
So he sat her down and asked if there was anything she needed to tell him. Then, he said nothing. He just looked at her. There was dead silence, and it stretched... And stretched... And stretched. For minutes. He later told me that psychologically, humans hate silence and we will eventually try to fill it. He just stared at her. Eventually she she couldn't handle the dead air and broke, and started crying, telling him that if I remember correctly, she slept with a mutual friend.
Anyway he ended it and blah blah blah. But just remember there is power in absolute silence when you're trying to get information out of someone, or get them to do something. I swear it works, I've since used it myself, and since knowing this tactic, I've been armed when someone has tried to use it on me.
posted by Jubey at 2:59 PM on September 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
So he sat her down and asked if there was anything she needed to tell him. Then, he said nothing. He just looked at her. There was dead silence, and it stretched... And stretched... And stretched. For minutes. He later told me that psychologically, humans hate silence and we will eventually try to fill it. He just stared at her. Eventually she she couldn't handle the dead air and broke, and started crying, telling him that if I remember correctly, she slept with a mutual friend.
Anyway he ended it and blah blah blah. But just remember there is power in absolute silence when you're trying to get information out of someone, or get them to do something. I swear it works, I've since used it myself, and since knowing this tactic, I've been armed when someone has tried to use it on me.
posted by Jubey at 2:59 PM on September 26, 2013 [7 favorites]
> Famous monster's response is probably one of the best I've ever seen on the green, so far as getting an answer out of someone. I think I might save it somewhere just in case I ever need it!
Yes, I basically did exactly that many years ago and got the answer I feared (even though the person tried like hell to wriggle out of it). It's hard to make yourself stick to the script, but it's worth it. If you want the truth, that is.
posted by languagehat at 3:15 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yes, I basically did exactly that many years ago and got the answer I feared (even though the person tried like hell to wriggle out of it). It's hard to make yourself stick to the script, but it's worth it. If you want the truth, that is.
posted by languagehat at 3:15 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Whatever you do --- whether you go ahead with the wedding or call it off --- that money is already gone. There is no getting it all back, so worrying about how much who spent is pointless; so, dismiss that from consideration entirely. Plus as someone said above, losing that money on a wedding that never happened is still cheaper than a divorce, and less stressful too.
The very first thing you have to do is talk to him: follow Famous Monster's script, they've got it nailed. You know about 'ask versus guess culture'? ASK, don't GUESS. And if you don't get full, complete and satisfactory answers, call a halt to the wedding: do not marry someone you don't trust.
posted by easily confused at 3:55 PM on September 26, 2013
The very first thing you have to do is talk to him: follow Famous Monster's script, they've got it nailed. You know about 'ask versus guess culture'? ASK, don't GUESS. And if you don't get full, complete and satisfactory answers, call a halt to the wedding: do not marry someone you don't trust.
posted by easily confused at 3:55 PM on September 26, 2013
there was a pattern of long-term, mild concern that I more or less out out of my head
This relationship has been making you feel crazy. Not good. It's even worse if your SO knows you have been feeling this way and is OK with it. By all means, get to the bottom of this before you even think about marrying this person.
posted by BibiRose at 4:34 PM on September 26, 2013
This relationship has been making you feel crazy. Not good. It's even worse if your SO knows you have been feeling this way and is OK with it. By all means, get to the bottom of this before you even think about marrying this person.
posted by BibiRose at 4:34 PM on September 26, 2013
You have to talk about it.
The absolute worst case scenario you can imagine if you do talk about it is preferable to the absolute best case scenario if you don't.
For example, and please excuse the horrible picture I'll paint...
Talking, worst case: your SO says I'm busted, I've been sleeping with this person for ages and we laugh about you behind your back.
Not talking, best case: you ignore it and try to move on but have to live with the nagging doubt and suspicion for years, and may never learn to talk about your marital issues with your spouse.
For me the worst case scenario is still better, since you can move on and rebuild over time. Nothing good can come of not talking about it, and hopefully my worst projection is nowhere near what the real result will actually be.
posted by man down under at 5:18 PM on September 26, 2013
The absolute worst case scenario you can imagine if you do talk about it is preferable to the absolute best case scenario if you don't.
For example, and please excuse the horrible picture I'll paint...
Talking, worst case: your SO says I'm busted, I've been sleeping with this person for ages and we laugh about you behind your back.
Not talking, best case: you ignore it and try to move on but have to live with the nagging doubt and suspicion for years, and may never learn to talk about your marital issues with your spouse.
For me the worst case scenario is still better, since you can move on and rebuild over time. Nothing good can come of not talking about it, and hopefully my worst projection is nowhere near what the real result will actually be.
posted by man down under at 5:18 PM on September 26, 2013
Postpone or cancel the wedding, flat out. I proceeded to marry someone whom I had something-like these types of doubts about and it all ended in tears and an unpleasant lawsuit for an annulment (which I lost; civil annulments aren't easy to get).
posted by Juffo-Wup at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Juffo-Wup at 6:08 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Oh, yeah, and the social awkwardness thing? It's gonna be WAY WORSE when you need to divorce him after N months than if you had called the whole thing off (or postponed it until a suitable time).
posted by Juffo-Wup at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Juffo-Wup at 6:12 PM on September 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Famous has great ideas.
Beyond that, if you feel the answers are satisfactory and you decide to press on with your wedding plans, you two need to figure out how to communicate.
How can you have a marriage if you can't talk to each other?
posted by BlueHorse at 9:10 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
Beyond that, if you feel the answers are satisfactory and you decide to press on with your wedding plans, you two need to figure out how to communicate.
How can you have a marriage if you can't talk to each other?
posted by BlueHorse at 9:10 PM on September 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's weird that your biggest concern here is the money outlaid and you're strategizing as if this was a high-stakes board game not your future life partner.
Cheating or not - why are you marrying this person?
posted by latkes at 9:21 AM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Cheating or not - why are you marrying this person?
posted by latkes at 9:21 AM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
The thing with problems like this.....they aren't like fine wine or good scotch. They don't get better with time.
You have to address this now with your fiancee.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:39 AM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
You have to address this now with your fiancee.
posted by PsuDab93 at 9:39 AM on September 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I would end it. I have a friend who was in the same boat as you. She suspected he was seeing someone while she was engaged and first married. Now two kids in to the marriage, she has confirmed that he 's been seeing several women while he's simultaneously dated her and married her. She's really in a bind now. Its turned her in to a suscpicious and miserable person and she's admitted she's been that way basically from the beginning of the marriage. I called of an engagement a few years ago. It turned out OK. And then I met the man I will marry just a few short weeks after I called it off. I wish you luck to talk it out with him and do what your gut tells you to do.
posted by dmbfan93 at 3:08 AM on September 28, 2013
posted by dmbfan93 at 3:08 AM on September 28, 2013
So any updates OP?
posted by WhatrightdoIhave2happiness at 6:12 AM on October 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by WhatrightdoIhave2happiness at 6:12 AM on October 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Specklet at 12:03 PM on September 26, 2013 [32 favorites]