Middle School Woes
September 22, 2013 3:05 PM Subscribe
Help me understand my daughter's middle school transition. Please.
My 11 yo daughter just moved from her K-5 school to the district middle school (6-8). It's four weeks into class, and she is still having a difficult transition.
She describes being very upset and anxious nearly every day. So far she reports crying or 'feeling like crying' four out of five days. One day, she even excused herself to the restroom to puke, she was so upset. She also describes that her circle of friends has changed and some are either isolating her or outright being mean (not bullying, just mean). She also says, "It's just too big and crowded - I'll never get used to it."
What I've done so far:
- Met with counselor and got her a student assistantship in the counseling office for one period.
- She can take a five minute break there between the first/second break.
- Much emotional support, mostly a mantra like: You are normal, you're not the only one having a hard time, and everything will work out in the end.
- Taught a rudimentary breath awareness practice.
- Encouraged her to join track after school, which she did, and she likes.
Bonus Crap:
Her mother lives in a nearby city and has parental rights, too. We share custody at Me:Her::60:40.
Since the first week, the mom has been advocating changing schools as a solution. She sees the size and atmosphere of the school as the issue.
Alternatively, I see the school itself being a negligible factor, and the adolescent/transition/social anxiety as the challenge to overcome. My POV is that this would probably occur no matter the school.
So...the Mom independently started showing my kid other schools in the other city, and telling her she can pick a school she likes.
I feel like this is undermining any approach to the real issue.
Am I wrong? Should I entertain changing schools - in my town or mom's? Should I double down and insist we make this one work (which will probably end up in another courtroom)?
I'm trying to get this squared away quickly - because now the kid not only has the school stress, but the parents-are-saying-two-different-things confusion.
Any insight is welcome.
My 11 yo daughter just moved from her K-5 school to the district middle school (6-8). It's four weeks into class, and she is still having a difficult transition.
She describes being very upset and anxious nearly every day. So far she reports crying or 'feeling like crying' four out of five days. One day, she even excused herself to the restroom to puke, she was so upset. She also describes that her circle of friends has changed and some are either isolating her or outright being mean (not bullying, just mean). She also says, "It's just too big and crowded - I'll never get used to it."
What I've done so far:
- Met with counselor and got her a student assistantship in the counseling office for one period.
- She can take a five minute break there between the first/second break.
- Much emotional support, mostly a mantra like: You are normal, you're not the only one having a hard time, and everything will work out in the end.
- Taught a rudimentary breath awareness practice.
- Encouraged her to join track after school, which she did, and she likes.
Bonus Crap:
Her mother lives in a nearby city and has parental rights, too. We share custody at Me:Her::60:40.
Since the first week, the mom has been advocating changing schools as a solution. She sees the size and atmosphere of the school as the issue.
Alternatively, I see the school itself being a negligible factor, and the adolescent/transition/social anxiety as the challenge to overcome. My POV is that this would probably occur no matter the school.
So...the Mom independently started showing my kid other schools in the other city, and telling her she can pick a school she likes.
I feel like this is undermining any approach to the real issue.
Am I wrong? Should I entertain changing schools - in my town or mom's? Should I double down and insist we make this one work (which will probably end up in another courtroom)?
I'm trying to get this squared away quickly - because now the kid not only has the school stress, but the parents-are-saying-two-different-things confusion.
Any insight is welcome.
I would tell your daughter to stick it out for one year. (I would tell mom the same thing.) The school year has already started, she does have some friends at this school, etc. If she changed schools then she would be The New Kid, everything else would be different as well, and there is no guarantee anything would be better.
If after this year things are still tough, it's perfectly fine to think through your options. But I agree with you.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:12 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
If after this year things are still tough, it's perfectly fine to think through your options. But I agree with you.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:12 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
You are probably wrong. Sorry.
Middle school girls--and it's possible your wife remembers this in a way that you don't--can be really, really vicious and terrible. The line between "mean" and "bullying" is really thin, and your daughter is experiencing acute anxiety to the point of making herself ill. Regardless of what you choose to do in regard to schools, I'd recommend that you get your daughter into CBT to deal with that anxiety (and not just school counseling) so that she can develop better coping mechanisms for her troubles. However, a smaller school with a more friendly atmosphere might alleviate all of this quite a bit.
I see the school itself being a negligible factor, and the adolescent/transition/social anxiety as the challenge to overcome
Your daughter is eleven. Middle school girls can be horrific bitches. Seriously, show her that you support her by advocating for her and supporting her ability to seek out an environment where she's happy. If she were an adult in an abusive workplace, she could just change jobs. Because she's a kid, she can't do anything about this--and kids who are ostracized are at a higher risk of self-harming behavior. And in a way, it makes sense. Their lives are out of their control, but their bodies aren't.
Let her switch schools, if that's what she wants. Seriously.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:21 PM on September 22, 2013 [40 favorites]
Middle school girls--and it's possible your wife remembers this in a way that you don't--can be really, really vicious and terrible. The line between "mean" and "bullying" is really thin, and your daughter is experiencing acute anxiety to the point of making herself ill. Regardless of what you choose to do in regard to schools, I'd recommend that you get your daughter into CBT to deal with that anxiety (and not just school counseling) so that she can develop better coping mechanisms for her troubles. However, a smaller school with a more friendly atmosphere might alleviate all of this quite a bit.
I see the school itself being a negligible factor, and the adolescent/transition/social anxiety as the challenge to overcome
Your daughter is eleven. Middle school girls can be horrific bitches. Seriously, show her that you support her by advocating for her and supporting her ability to seek out an environment where she's happy. If she were an adult in an abusive workplace, she could just change jobs. Because she's a kid, she can't do anything about this--and kids who are ostracized are at a higher risk of self-harming behavior. And in a way, it makes sense. Their lives are out of their control, but their bodies aren't.
Let her switch schools, if that's what she wants. Seriously.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:21 PM on September 22, 2013 [40 favorites]
She sees the size and atmosphere of the school as the issue.
Is it?
I remember making this transition, myself, from a very small elementary school into a large, institutional, and for a variety of reasons unfriendly/unsympathetic combined middle/high school.
Pretty much my entire school year was lost to the transition, which included the general transitional issues you've described, huge shifts in my social world, and a not-insignificant amount of bullying (including teachers condoning and even participating in the bullying). Additionally, the school as a whole just wasn't a good fit for me in ways are a little too complicated to go into here.
I would have been in heaven if my parents had realized that there are other schools, and that maybe they'd made the wrong choice for me, rather than just throwing me to the wolves. As an adult, I don't exactly resent my parents not recognizing how miserable I was and allowing me to change schools, but their lack of action on my behalf isn't the shining moment of their parenting careers, either.
I guess the main question I would ask is, are there reasons that this school might not be a good fit, beyond your daughter's general level of distress?
Does what's going on right now match up with how she usually reacts to change, or is this unusual coming from her? How was she dealing with general pre-adolescent changes before the beginning of the school year?
Does she have specific complaints about some aspect of the school, or are there ways that, coming from an adult's perspective, you can see that the school is failing her?
If there was an admissions process leading up to her attending, how much was she involved? What was her mom's opinion of the school at that point? How did she come to be in this particular school, and if there was any choice involved, how were those choices made?
posted by Sara C. at 3:22 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
Is it?
I remember making this transition, myself, from a very small elementary school into a large, institutional, and for a variety of reasons unfriendly/unsympathetic combined middle/high school.
Pretty much my entire school year was lost to the transition, which included the general transitional issues you've described, huge shifts in my social world, and a not-insignificant amount of bullying (including teachers condoning and even participating in the bullying). Additionally, the school as a whole just wasn't a good fit for me in ways are a little too complicated to go into here.
I would have been in heaven if my parents had realized that there are other schools, and that maybe they'd made the wrong choice for me, rather than just throwing me to the wolves. As an adult, I don't exactly resent my parents not recognizing how miserable I was and allowing me to change schools, but their lack of action on my behalf isn't the shining moment of their parenting careers, either.
I guess the main question I would ask is, are there reasons that this school might not be a good fit, beyond your daughter's general level of distress?
Does what's going on right now match up with how she usually reacts to change, or is this unusual coming from her? How was she dealing with general pre-adolescent changes before the beginning of the school year?
Does she have specific complaints about some aspect of the school, or are there ways that, coming from an adult's perspective, you can see that the school is failing her?
If there was an admissions process leading up to her attending, how much was she involved? What was her mom's opinion of the school at that point? How did she come to be in this particular school, and if there was any choice involved, how were those choices made?
posted by Sara C. at 3:22 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
This sounds like my entire 7th grade year. Part of it was hormonal, but part of it was that the school WAS too big and unfriendly. Over the summer, my parents had a conference with the principal, and I was moved to classes with friends in 8th grade. I had a wonderful year, and matured enough to be able to apply to a charter high school where I knew no one. (And loved that, too.)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:22 PM on September 22, 2013
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:22 PM on September 22, 2013
My POV is that this would probably occur no matter the school.
As a former girl who had a really shit time in middle school, I'd have been so grateful if my parents had shown any interest in resolving my problems other than shrugging and making me feel ashamed.
The risk, of course, as you note, is that maybe it would still suck someplace else.
I think the best thing to do is lay all your cards on the table and have a real talk with her about it, the short and long term pros and cons of each possible solution.
The other piece of advice I can offer is to let home be a reprieve. My home life sucked, so when I came home, it was just as awful as school but in a different way, but the upshot was that I couldn't talk to anyone or be myself anywhere on earth. So I disappeared into my head and wound up with a masters in Creative Writing. Don't let this happen to your child. ;)
You sound like a really nice dad.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:23 PM on September 22, 2013 [15 favorites]
As a former girl who had a really shit time in middle school, I'd have been so grateful if my parents had shown any interest in resolving my problems other than shrugging and making me feel ashamed.
The risk, of course, as you note, is that maybe it would still suck someplace else.
I think the best thing to do is lay all your cards on the table and have a real talk with her about it, the short and long term pros and cons of each possible solution.
The other piece of advice I can offer is to let home be a reprieve. My home life sucked, so when I came home, it was just as awful as school but in a different way, but the upshot was that I couldn't talk to anyone or be myself anywhere on earth. So I disappeared into my head and wound up with a masters in Creative Writing. Don't let this happen to your child. ;)
You sound like a really nice dad.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:23 PM on September 22, 2013 [15 favorites]
Unfortunately there are mean girls at EVERY school. It's a vicious two or three years. As a former bullied child at that age, I understand that switching schools is not always a panacea. And smaller schools afford you no way of getting away from a tormentor.
Why not have you, your ex, and the school counselor or principal sit down together and talk this out so as to get on the same page?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:24 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Why not have you, your ex, and the school counselor or principal sit down together and talk this out so as to get on the same page?
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:24 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I worked in the school system (many, many schools sized from several thousand students to mere hundreds) for 15 years, plus have had ten years of my kids in a great school and I agree with the mum that the problem my be the school itself. Personally, if given a choice, I wouldn't have my kids in a school of more than a few hundred students, especially during "middle school" years when the kids really need an authourity figure to keep on eye on the meanness/subtle bullying.
posted by saucysault at 3:25 PM on September 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by saucysault at 3:25 PM on September 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
Does your daughter want to change schools? You don't want her to, and her mother does, but what does she want?
posted by jeather at 3:26 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by jeather at 3:26 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
If there is another school that your daughter likes better and feels emotionally safer attending, and if she can attend that school without totally ruining her life or yours in some unchangeable way, you should let her change schools. There is no reason she should "stick it out" as some sort of moral character exercise. That's absurd, and it's cruel. Let her change schools if you can make it work.
If you end up with the same issues at a second school, then yes, it seems as though it's about teaching your daughter coping skills. But you've said absolutely nothing here to support the idea that it isn't the size and atmosphere of the school. And even if it's not something intrinsic to the school, perhaps just having the choice and picking the school herself would make your daughter feel better. I know it did for me when I went through almost this exact same thing when I was just a couple years older than your daughter is now. And I think I might very well not be alive today if my parents had made me stay at my old school (which was, objectively, a very good school with no significant objectionable qualities other than the fact that it was just a terrible fit for me personally as a child).
Listen to your daughter, and believe her. Don't think necessarily that you know what's going on in her life just because you are older than she is, especially since you have never been an 11-year-old girl. And no, it's not true that every school is equally bad for a girl her age; it's just simply not true, I promise. There very well may be a school that would make your daughter's life immeasurably better, allowing her to actually learn both academically and socially.
Also, I will say this: if there is even any small part of you that is resisting this change because your daughter might pick a new school that is closer to her mother's home, and that you will therefore see her less often, you need to back off of that right away. You absolutely cannot add to your child's burden by putting your own desire to keep the current custody arrangement over what would otherwise be best for her. By all means, let her explore other schools in your town too. But if she picks a school closer to mom, for whatever reason, you must be 100% certain that your position in this has nothing to do with wanting to keep her closer to you.
posted by decathecting at 3:27 PM on September 22, 2013 [12 favorites]
If you end up with the same issues at a second school, then yes, it seems as though it's about teaching your daughter coping skills. But you've said absolutely nothing here to support the idea that it isn't the size and atmosphere of the school. And even if it's not something intrinsic to the school, perhaps just having the choice and picking the school herself would make your daughter feel better. I know it did for me when I went through almost this exact same thing when I was just a couple years older than your daughter is now. And I think I might very well not be alive today if my parents had made me stay at my old school (which was, objectively, a very good school with no significant objectionable qualities other than the fact that it was just a terrible fit for me personally as a child).
Listen to your daughter, and believe her. Don't think necessarily that you know what's going on in her life just because you are older than she is, especially since you have never been an 11-year-old girl. And no, it's not true that every school is equally bad for a girl her age; it's just simply not true, I promise. There very well may be a school that would make your daughter's life immeasurably better, allowing her to actually learn both academically and socially.
Also, I will say this: if there is even any small part of you that is resisting this change because your daughter might pick a new school that is closer to her mother's home, and that you will therefore see her less often, you need to back off of that right away. You absolutely cannot add to your child's burden by putting your own desire to keep the current custody arrangement over what would otherwise be best for her. By all means, let her explore other schools in your town too. But if she picks a school closer to mom, for whatever reason, you must be 100% certain that your position in this has nothing to do with wanting to keep her closer to you.
posted by decathecting at 3:27 PM on September 22, 2013 [12 favorites]
Seconding jeather! Eleven is old enough to have an opinion. And a big say in the decision...though not the final say. If there exist other options, then explore them.
"Tough it out" is nice if there's no school choice or some other very, very compelling reason.
posted by skbw at 3:28 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
"Tough it out" is nice if there's no school choice or some other very, very compelling reason.
posted by skbw at 3:28 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
My life would have been totally different if my dad would have listened to my mom and agreed to take me out of my middle school. I didn't ask for it but she knew. I'm not saying this is a solution in your case, but looking back, not spending three solid years there would have drastically improved my life.
posted by milarepa at 3:29 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by milarepa at 3:29 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately there are mean girls at EVERY school.
That's true but there are very different levels of supervision and amounts of unsupervised time. And small schools can have poor supervision - I'm not saying they can't. But I don't think it's true that you get X percentage of wolves at every school and there aren't varying levels of safeguards to protect kids. Some get it better than others, and some just have physical infrastructure that makes unsupervised time more scarce.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:29 PM on September 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
That's true but there are very different levels of supervision and amounts of unsupervised time. And small schools can have poor supervision - I'm not saying they can't. But I don't think it's true that you get X percentage of wolves at every school and there aren't varying levels of safeguards to protect kids. Some get it better than others, and some just have physical infrastructure that makes unsupervised time more scarce.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:29 PM on September 22, 2013 [5 favorites]
Anecdata: I hated middle school, was teased, no friends, whole nine...but I never, but never, had to go throw up in the middle of the day. That should be a sign that this is way beyond normal angst.
posted by skbw at 3:30 PM on September 22, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by skbw at 3:30 PM on September 22, 2013 [10 favorites]
Unless you can identify something wrong with the school besides the fact that there are people there who are mean to her, switching schools is not a solution. Middle school aged children are little monsters. They're practicing fairly complex social interaction and this is the time when they experiment with being mean to each other. Sucks but there you have it. You might by luck of the draw switch your daughter into a school where she'll have fewer people being mean to her, but it could just as easily be worse or more likely just the same.
I'm really surprised by a lot of the responses that have been given already. I absolutely hated middle school -- I was bullied and lost the few friends I had from elementary school, and I was overwhelmed by the crowds and the size of the school much like your daughter is. But as an adult I know now that my social experience was not even remotely unique. The best thing you can do is continue to advocate for your daughter, support her, and comfort her. If a different school might have a better sports or arts program where she could thrive, for example, that might be worth switching for. But I'm not convinced that different is going to equal better if the issue is merely social.
posted by telegraph at 3:30 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm really surprised by a lot of the responses that have been given already. I absolutely hated middle school -- I was bullied and lost the few friends I had from elementary school, and I was overwhelmed by the crowds and the size of the school much like your daughter is. But as an adult I know now that my social experience was not even remotely unique. The best thing you can do is continue to advocate for your daughter, support her, and comfort her. If a different school might have a better sports or arts program where she could thrive, for example, that might be worth switching for. But I'm not convinced that different is going to equal better if the issue is merely social.
posted by telegraph at 3:30 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh, and BTW, when you say, "not bullying, just mean," it sounds as though you're minimizing the emotional trauma that "just mean" can inflict on a sensitive kid. Having a formerly close friend refuse to be your friend anymore, especially if you have reason to believe that she's telling your secrets to other people, or talking about you behind your back, or just laughing at you when you're not around, can be just as emotionally scarring as whatever you're thinking counts as "bullying." Whatever choice you make about school, make sure your daughter never again hears you say anything that even slightly implies that what she's going through isn't serious and important and worthy of real consideration.
I realize that I'm being hard on you. The reason I'm being hard on you is that the way you've described your daughter's situation sounds a lot like the situation I was in when I was her age. I almost committed suicide. I don't want that for your daughter, and I'm certain that you don't either. Please don't let her be miserable for any reason if there is anything you can do to prevent or stop it.
posted by decathecting at 3:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
I realize that I'm being hard on you. The reason I'm being hard on you is that the way you've described your daughter's situation sounds a lot like the situation I was in when I was her age. I almost committed suicide. I don't want that for your daughter, and I'm certain that you don't either. Please don't let her be miserable for any reason if there is anything you can do to prevent or stop it.
posted by decathecting at 3:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Does your daughter want to change schools? You don't want her to, and her mother does, but what does she want?
This is the school my daughter begged to attend. It has the International Baccalaureate program (only one in the district) which she is accepted in.
There is no reason she should "stick it out" as some sort of moral character exercise. That's absurd, and it's cruel.
Agree completely. This is not my intent. My intent is to help her grow and overcome this challenge. I'm not throwing her in the deep and and saying 'Swim!' by any means.
The reason I'm being hard on you is that the way you've described your daughter's situation sounds a lot like the situation I was in when I was her age.
No offense taken...it just doesn't *seem* like that's it to me. I'll try it on, but I don't initially think that's the core of it. Thanks for your candor.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:37 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is the school my daughter begged to attend. It has the International Baccalaureate program (only one in the district) which she is accepted in.
There is no reason she should "stick it out" as some sort of moral character exercise. That's absurd, and it's cruel.
Agree completely. This is not my intent. My intent is to help her grow and overcome this challenge. I'm not throwing her in the deep and and saying 'Swim!' by any means.
The reason I'm being hard on you is that the way you've described your daughter's situation sounds a lot like the situation I was in when I was her age.
No offense taken...it just doesn't *seem* like that's it to me. I'll try it on, but I don't initially think that's the core of it. Thanks for your candor.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:37 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
taking out any custody bullshit and that going to a smaller school might mean living with mom, you HAVE to explore this. going from an elementary school where there are maybe 300-500 kids to a middle school where there are 1000-3000 is CRAZY. i don't know the numbers in your situation, but if your kid is sensitive or agoraphobic or just doesn't like loud noises and chaos a big school with a big population IS the problem. sure, she'll have to deal with some bullshit at a new school too, but if it's the RIGHT school, that will make all the difference. leaving class to barf because you're so stressed out is not normal tween girl behavior.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 3:41 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by misanthropicsarah at 3:41 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
But I'm not convinced that different is going to equal better if the issue is merely social.
There really isn't any "merely" social for middle school girls; their social lives are their lives. One of the benefits of being a kid today is that parents are often far more clued in to mental health matters and the severity of bullying. And again, because I think it's important, the anxiety your daughter is experiencing is really very severe; add me to the list of kids who frequently had panic attacks at this age, but never made herself puke. That anxiety in-and-of-itself is bad for her emotional and physical well-being and needs to be addressed professionally regardless of the school she attends.
Frankly, if I were in your position, and your daughter switched schools and continued to experience bullying? I would probably find a way to home school her, rather than look at it as a failure on her part of developing appropriate coping mechanisms. Eleven year old girls have so much on their plates hormonally, academically, emotionally even without dealing with "typical" mean girls, and they really, really need adults who are willing to put make their emotional well-being a priority.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:42 PM on September 22, 2013 [9 favorites]
There really isn't any "merely" social for middle school girls; their social lives are their lives. One of the benefits of being a kid today is that parents are often far more clued in to mental health matters and the severity of bullying. And again, because I think it's important, the anxiety your daughter is experiencing is really very severe; add me to the list of kids who frequently had panic attacks at this age, but never made herself puke. That anxiety in-and-of-itself is bad for her emotional and physical well-being and needs to be addressed professionally regardless of the school she attends.
Frankly, if I were in your position, and your daughter switched schools and continued to experience bullying? I would probably find a way to home school her, rather than look at it as a failure on her part of developing appropriate coping mechanisms. Eleven year old girls have so much on their plates hormonally, academically, emotionally even without dealing with "typical" mean girls, and they really, really need adults who are willing to put make their emotional well-being a priority.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:42 PM on September 22, 2013 [9 favorites]
She probably thinks this is her own fault, that she is somehow incapable of functioning like a normal middle-schooler. Keep reminding her that this situation is not her fault. Take the onus off her to fix it. My parents just wanted desperately for me to attend school happily every day, but I took their insistence that I go as confirmation that I was the problem.
Exclusion might not seem like bullying to you (or her), but there's falling out with a friend and then there is entering a room to the hum of sniggers and whispers every day. When you lose your friends then the classroom becomes Room 101.
Move schools if that's an option and she wants to. Make sure she is active in selecting the new school. When I was younger I moved classes, not schools, but even that small change literally changed my life overnight. It was wonderful turning up to class knowing that there were 5 or 6 girls who would be happy to have me sit next to them.
Also, enrol her in as many after-school, gentle, enjoyable activities as you can. Give her as many opportunities as possible to experience true friendship and all its medicinal powers.
posted by dumdidumdum at 3:42 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Exclusion might not seem like bullying to you (or her), but there's falling out with a friend and then there is entering a room to the hum of sniggers and whispers every day. When you lose your friends then the classroom becomes Room 101.
Move schools if that's an option and she wants to. Make sure she is active in selecting the new school. When I was younger I moved classes, not schools, but even that small change literally changed my life overnight. It was wonderful turning up to class knowing that there were 5 or 6 girls who would be happy to have me sit next to them.
Also, enrol her in as many after-school, gentle, enjoyable activities as you can. Give her as many opportunities as possible to experience true friendship and all its medicinal powers.
posted by dumdidumdum at 3:42 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I was 11 when I first wanted to die. I have dealt with episodes of depression and suicidal ideation for the rest of my life, and that was the age it began. I didn't have the language to say these things at the time; I didn't know it was a thing that people could even think, let alone verbalize it even to my parents who I knew had my back - I just cried and hurt myself in a myriad of ways and was a horrible person to everyone around me. I'm not saying that your daughter has the same problems I have, and I'm not saying that kids *not* dealing with these demons should just shrug and deal with it because everybody is mean at that age.
Instead I'm suggesting that you do whatever you can to arm your daughter with the ability to verbalize her problems, to explain them to you and other people. It will give her power. She's old enough to have an opinion; she's old enough to be respected. But maybe she doesn't have the experience and words to explain herself to the people who control her life. Hook her up with people (and books, too) who can help her explain and explore her own mind, and encourage her to speak to both you and her mother about this.
posted by Mizu at 3:44 PM on September 22, 2013 [11 favorites]
Instead I'm suggesting that you do whatever you can to arm your daughter with the ability to verbalize her problems, to explain them to you and other people. It will give her power. She's old enough to have an opinion; she's old enough to be respected. But maybe she doesn't have the experience and words to explain herself to the people who control her life. Hook her up with people (and books, too) who can help her explain and explore her own mind, and encourage her to speak to both you and her mother about this.
posted by Mizu at 3:44 PM on September 22, 2013 [11 favorites]
I'm surprised that no one else has zeroed in on this:
She also describes that her circle of friends has changed and some are either isolating her or outright being mean (not bullying, just mean).
That, to me, would be a firm mark under the "switch" heading. This isn't just about random acts of meanness that can be attributed to adolescence, the new environment, etc. and "middle school girls" in general. There are specific individuals - former friends! - who are making this experience harder for her than it needs to be. Of course, you (and she) run the risk of this being true at a new school, but girls who have a shared past with her and are deciding to be catty, sniping, or exclusive now have fuel for their cruelty that others don't.
My mother allowed me to switch schools (from a smaller, parochial school where the girl-on-girl cruelty had become especially pronounced to the local public school) when I started the sixth grade. It was, truly, life-altering. If you can facilitate this, and she wants to try it, please do so.
posted by Austenite at 3:45 PM on September 22, 2013 [9 favorites]
She also describes that her circle of friends has changed and some are either isolating her or outright being mean (not bullying, just mean).
That, to me, would be a firm mark under the "switch" heading. This isn't just about random acts of meanness that can be attributed to adolescence, the new environment, etc. and "middle school girls" in general. There are specific individuals - former friends! - who are making this experience harder for her than it needs to be. Of course, you (and she) run the risk of this being true at a new school, but girls who have a shared past with her and are deciding to be catty, sniping, or exclusive now have fuel for their cruelty that others don't.
My mother allowed me to switch schools (from a smaller, parochial school where the girl-on-girl cruelty had become especially pronounced to the local public school) when I started the sixth grade. It was, truly, life-altering. If you can facilitate this, and she wants to try it, please do so.
posted by Austenite at 3:45 PM on September 22, 2013 [9 favorites]
I get the sense that she wants to switch schools and am answering based on that assumption.
1. Worst case scenario if she switches: she's still unhappy.
Upside: she has evidence that the issue was not the school, and can work more seriously on whatever the issue actually is. She also learns, earlier than most, that leaving doesn't always solve a problem. And most importantly, she has proof that her parents are listening to her, and that what she says matters.
1. Worst case scenario if she stays: she's still unhappy.
Upside: I guess she finds out you can live through anything? Seems like the sheer experience of being alive teaches that lesson often enough that you don't need to help with it, though.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 3:50 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
1. Worst case scenario if she switches: she's still unhappy.
Upside: she has evidence that the issue was not the school, and can work more seriously on whatever the issue actually is. She also learns, earlier than most, that leaving doesn't always solve a problem. And most importantly, she has proof that her parents are listening to her, and that what she says matters.
1. Worst case scenario if she stays: she's still unhappy.
Upside: I guess she finds out you can live through anything? Seems like the sheer experience of being alive teaches that lesson often enough that you don't need to help with it, though.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 3:50 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
This is the school my daughter begged to attend. It has the International Baccalaureate program (only one in the district) which she is accepted in.
That's not the question. The question isn't, "what did she want, abstractly, last year when she was deciding what school she might hypothetically want?" The question is, "now that she's in this school and unhappy, does she want to switch?"
My intent is to help her grow and overcome this challenge. I'm not throwing her in the deep and and saying 'Swim!' by any means.
Sometimes, growing and overcoming challenges means recognizing that you're in a situation you hate, and taking concrete steps to change it. And yes, if you're forcing her to go every day to a place where she's miserable and sending her the message that throwing up mid-day is part of the "challenge," you're throwing her in the deep end, no matter how much you talk with her about coping strategies.
Look, if she wants to stay in her current school, then I think you're doing many of the right things: getting adult assistance, affirming her feelings, and trying to give her advice about how to make the experience better. But if she doesn't want to stay, and you're making her because you think it will help her "grow," then I think you're doing her a disservice.
posted by decathecting at 3:50 PM on September 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
That's not the question. The question isn't, "what did she want, abstractly, last year when she was deciding what school she might hypothetically want?" The question is, "now that she's in this school and unhappy, does she want to switch?"
My intent is to help her grow and overcome this challenge. I'm not throwing her in the deep and and saying 'Swim!' by any means.
Sometimes, growing and overcoming challenges means recognizing that you're in a situation you hate, and taking concrete steps to change it. And yes, if you're forcing her to go every day to a place where she's miserable and sending her the message that throwing up mid-day is part of the "challenge," you're throwing her in the deep end, no matter how much you talk with her about coping strategies.
Look, if she wants to stay in her current school, then I think you're doing many of the right things: getting adult assistance, affirming her feelings, and trying to give her advice about how to make the experience better. But if she doesn't want to stay, and you're making her because you think it will help her "grow," then I think you're doing her a disservice.
posted by decathecting at 3:50 PM on September 22, 2013 [8 favorites]
Oh, and one last thing. The messages you're giving her, about this being normal and something everything goes through, are minimizing and could potentially be damaging. She's old enough to be able to see that this is very likely not true; at eleven, I could see and tell that my old friends were doing fine socializing with one another, and I wasn't. They were being mean to me, and if an adult told me this was normal and that everyone had it hard, I would have internalized this message as being indicative of something being wrong with me. Because, after all, no one else I knew was being teased like this. No one else was so hurt and overwhelmed and anxious as I was.
Instead of minimizing her experiences as "normal" and something "everyone experiences" (because, though common, they are not in any way normal or universal, and she's smart enough to know this), try validating her feelings. "That sounds really hard. I would have been really hurt by that. That's not a very nice thing of her to say to you." Having an adult just recognize that I was really, legitimately hurting at that stage would have meant the world to me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:53 PM on September 22, 2013 [27 favorites]
Instead of minimizing her experiences as "normal" and something "everyone experiences" (because, though common, they are not in any way normal or universal, and she's smart enough to know this), try validating her feelings. "That sounds really hard. I would have been really hurt by that. That's not a very nice thing of her to say to you." Having an adult just recognize that I was really, legitimately hurting at that stage would have meant the world to me.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:53 PM on September 22, 2013 [27 favorites]
"Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls," by Rachel Simmons, may help you understand and think through some of what your daughter is experiencing. Tough stuff.
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:01 PM on September 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 4:01 PM on September 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
This is the school my daughter begged to attend. It has the International Baccalaureate program (only one in the district) which she is accepted in.
Okay. Your daughter wanted to go here last year. But does she want to stay at this school now? Which school she wanted -- or you wanted, or her mother wanted -- last year is irrelevant. People make mistakes, and "stick it out" is not always the right solution. (Nor is it always the wrong one.)
I also chose a school I wanted to go to which had more stringent acceptance standards and partway through it -- around January or February -- it got horrible and though I made it through, it was not good for me either then or in the longer term.
You seem really invested in having your daughter stay at this school, and it's not clear to me why you want her to stay there specifically, and why her wishes aren't even mentioned in your quite long post or your update.
posted by jeather at 4:10 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Okay. Your daughter wanted to go here last year. But does she want to stay at this school now? Which school she wanted -- or you wanted, or her mother wanted -- last year is irrelevant. People make mistakes, and "stick it out" is not always the right solution. (Nor is it always the wrong one.)
I also chose a school I wanted to go to which had more stringent acceptance standards and partway through it -- around January or February -- it got horrible and though I made it through, it was not good for me either then or in the longer term.
You seem really invested in having your daughter stay at this school, and it's not clear to me why you want her to stay there specifically, and why her wishes aren't even mentioned in your quite long post or your update.
posted by jeather at 4:10 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I used to hide in the bathroom during any free unsupervised time in middle school because it was peaceful and no one would be cruel to me. I can still remember the shape of the window. But I never threw up out of terror because of it.
Something is going on that is out of the ordinary with your daughter - this is not normal. Your wife is right to be thinking about possibly moving her.
Before moving her, though, I'd get her some help in working on behavioral things she may be able to do to blend in. It is not her fault they're hounding her, but someone to help her with behavior might avoid it happening again. Please, if you take that route, do not phrase it as someone to help her behave normally, because that will reinforce that this is her fault. It's not her fault.
posted by winna at 4:12 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Something is going on that is out of the ordinary with your daughter - this is not normal. Your wife is right to be thinking about possibly moving her.
Before moving her, though, I'd get her some help in working on behavioral things she may be able to do to blend in. It is not her fault they're hounding her, but someone to help her with behavior might avoid it happening again. Please, if you take that route, do not phrase it as someone to help her behave normally, because that will reinforce that this is her fault. It's not her fault.
posted by winna at 4:12 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
In 7th grade I was thrust into a similar situation, and I don't want to get into my whole personal history on the internet, and I'm sure I had unusually bad luck, but some very, very bad things ended up happening to me, things that changed the entire course of my life. It's not to be taken lightly. There wasn't anyone I could tell about what was happening. At least your daughter has told you. Listen to her.
posted by HotToddy at 4:14 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by HotToddy at 4:14 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
Should I double down and insist we make this one work (which will probably end up in another courtroom)?
Incidentally, this is a really good time for you and her mom to have her back, as a team, to make her feel like no matter what happens, you both love her. You can't really be her team the way you need to be if you feel sort of scornful about each other's opinions.
Can you seek third party support of any kind to help the three of you come up with a game plan? Like that as of October 4, you three will arrive at a solution you think is best and you all agree that you're going to be on team Whatever She Decides? I think it would really help and it would really help to point out that it sounds like everyone really wants the best thing for your daughter. You both seem like really caring parents and you don't want to get that obfuscated by how this particular decision pans out. Her takeaway should be 'Mom and Dad have my back. They're committed, as a unit, to Team Me.'
Seriously, it would have changed my life to walk around with that kind of knowledge.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:19 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
Incidentally, this is a really good time for you and her mom to have her back, as a team, to make her feel like no matter what happens, you both love her. You can't really be her team the way you need to be if you feel sort of scornful about each other's opinions.
Can you seek third party support of any kind to help the three of you come up with a game plan? Like that as of October 4, you three will arrive at a solution you think is best and you all agree that you're going to be on team Whatever She Decides? I think it would really help and it would really help to point out that it sounds like everyone really wants the best thing for your daughter. You both seem like really caring parents and you don't want to get that obfuscated by how this particular decision pans out. Her takeaway should be 'Mom and Dad have my back. They're committed, as a unit, to Team Me.'
Seriously, it would have changed my life to walk around with that kind of knowledge.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:19 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
One other thought I am having-could the school in a sense be the scapegoat in this situation? How is her life in other ways? How long have you been divorced, and do you and her mother get along most of the time?
I get that the throwing up from stress is a Thing-but maybe it's easier for her to say school is stressful than it is to say that her life is stressful.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:19 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I get that the throwing up from stress is a Thing-but maybe it's easier for her to say school is stressful than it is to say that her life is stressful.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 4:19 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't know what to tell you to do as far as the specific change schools yes or no issue. But I think one of the most helpful things you can do is talk to your daughter about what's going on, and acknowledge that kids are shitty and it's not her fault.
My mom and grandma were both of the "kill them with kindness!" school of thought, and insisted that if I was sweet and friendly to the other kids that were being so awful to me that they would be my friends. That attitude made it feel like it was MY fault other kids weren't nice to me.
My dad, on the other hand, genius that he is, told me that the other kids were mean because they were horrible little shitheads, and that I shouldn't give even a second thought to the inane drivel that came pouring out of their mouths. He also never failed to tell me how proud he was of me for being a leader and for refusing to stoop to their level just so they'd like me.
Guess which attitude got me through.
posted by phunniemee at 4:27 PM on September 22, 2013 [17 favorites]
My mom and grandma were both of the "kill them with kindness!" school of thought, and insisted that if I was sweet and friendly to the other kids that were being so awful to me that they would be my friends. That attitude made it feel like it was MY fault other kids weren't nice to me.
My dad, on the other hand, genius that he is, told me that the other kids were mean because they were horrible little shitheads, and that I shouldn't give even a second thought to the inane drivel that came pouring out of their mouths. He also never failed to tell me how proud he was of me for being a leader and for refusing to stoop to their level just so they'd like me.
Guess which attitude got me through.
posted by phunniemee at 4:27 PM on September 22, 2013 [17 favorites]
Are you and your ex cordial enough that the two of you could discuss it together without it turning into an argument or another courtroom? There's something to be said for both of your approaches, and I'm sure neither one of you wants your daughter to suffer. Maybe if it doesn't get better she could transfer over the holidays?
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Did you daughter attend the same school all the way from kindergarten through 5th grade? If yes, then that's probably part of the problem: if she never changed schools before and was never 'the new kid'. But either way, one school all through K-5 or not, the other part is that as a 5th grader, she was one of the 'big kids'; now, she's suddenly one of the 'little kids' at the bottom of the social heap.
Does the school her mother is suggesting have a much smaller student body? That alone would probably be helpful, and let her feel less lost in the crowd.
posted by easily confused at 4:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Does the school her mother is suggesting have a much smaller student body? That alone would probably be helpful, and let her feel less lost in the crowd.
posted by easily confused at 4:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
not bullying, just mean
I'm breaking that out because I want to say that "just mean" is often bullying. Kids won't call it bullying, because they feel like there's a social judgment made, they're found lacking, therefore, there's something wrong with them.
It's pernicious, and it digs into the brain and over a long period of time, it becomes part of their identity. They think if they can just fix what's wrong with them, it will get better. It doesn't usually get better.
posted by headspace at 4:37 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm breaking that out because I want to say that "just mean" is often bullying. Kids won't call it bullying, because they feel like there's a social judgment made, they're found lacking, therefore, there's something wrong with them.
It's pernicious, and it digs into the brain and over a long period of time, it becomes part of their identity. They think if they can just fix what's wrong with them, it will get better. It doesn't usually get better.
posted by headspace at 4:37 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
My husband and I have talked a lot about our experiences in school, and from our very small data set, "bullying" and "mean" can be really hard to distinguish between. People often imagine bullying as the big kid, usually a boy, who takes your lunch money, slams you into a locker, or gives you a swirly in the toilet. Girls are, in my experience, less likely to be physical, but use their words to razor-sharp effect, and while perhaps one single incident might be described as "mean," if it happens repeatedly, that's bullying.
posted by ambrosia at 4:46 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by ambrosia at 4:46 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
I don't have a lot to contribute here because I did not attend middle school (home schooled), and my daughter is luckily far from middle school age.
However, I've noticed numerous people saying that despite having stress, they never threw up from stress. I definitely did that during my middle school years. And it was not some sort of signifier that my stress was worse than other kids' stress. I was throwing up about the same stuff that other kids wouldn't have blinked an eye about - for example, every time we went on vacation, I would throw up while we were on vacation because I couldn't handle the change in my daily routine.
So, just saying, throwing up about stress is just a way that some people express being overwhelmed, and I truly believe it doesn't say anything about how bad the stress is. I still don't really understand why I got so stressed out about little things at that age (I didn't act stressed or anxious for the most part, aside from the throwing up), but I think it mostly had to do with having very poor communication skills about my feelings. Didn't change until I got to college.
I also think that the majority of people DO experience bullying during middle school and do have a hard time there. I experienced bullying and I didn't even go to middle school. And almost every time I bring up the fact that I homeschooled through middle school, the person I'm talking to assures me how lucky I am because middle school is a miserable social experience. I do still agree with PhoB that empathizing is likely to be a better approach than telling your daughter how normal having a hard time in middle school is. Just because something is experienced by many/most people doesn't mean it isn't wrong, bad, and hard.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 4:48 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
However, I've noticed numerous people saying that despite having stress, they never threw up from stress. I definitely did that during my middle school years. And it was not some sort of signifier that my stress was worse than other kids' stress. I was throwing up about the same stuff that other kids wouldn't have blinked an eye about - for example, every time we went on vacation, I would throw up while we were on vacation because I couldn't handle the change in my daily routine.
So, just saying, throwing up about stress is just a way that some people express being overwhelmed, and I truly believe it doesn't say anything about how bad the stress is. I still don't really understand why I got so stressed out about little things at that age (I didn't act stressed or anxious for the most part, aside from the throwing up), but I think it mostly had to do with having very poor communication skills about my feelings. Didn't change until I got to college.
I also think that the majority of people DO experience bullying during middle school and do have a hard time there. I experienced bullying and I didn't even go to middle school. And almost every time I bring up the fact that I homeschooled through middle school, the person I'm talking to assures me how lucky I am because middle school is a miserable social experience. I do still agree with PhoB that empathizing is likely to be a better approach than telling your daughter how normal having a hard time in middle school is. Just because something is experienced by many/most people doesn't mean it isn't wrong, bad, and hard.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 4:48 PM on September 22, 2013 [4 favorites]
I also want to add that even if you tell an 11 year old that everyone else is having a hard time too, they are concrete thinkers and have not fully developed a sense of abstract concepts.
So unless they actually see all the "popular kids" getting bullied, or going home and crying alone in their bedrooms, or looking sad and struggling through their day, it isn't going to compute to them if mom or dad is telling them "oh yeah, those other kids may look like they're doing just fine, but in reality, their friends are being mean to them sometimes too, and they go home and want to cry because going to a new school is hard too." They'll think you're just telling them something to make them feel better.
This is why "I know you are having a hard time, it sounds really frustrating, and I'm sorry" is a better approach.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 4:57 PM on September 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
So unless they actually see all the "popular kids" getting bullied, or going home and crying alone in their bedrooms, or looking sad and struggling through their day, it isn't going to compute to them if mom or dad is telling them "oh yeah, those other kids may look like they're doing just fine, but in reality, their friends are being mean to them sometimes too, and they go home and want to cry because going to a new school is hard too." They'll think you're just telling them something to make them feel better.
This is why "I know you are having a hard time, it sounds really frustrating, and I'm sorry" is a better approach.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 4:57 PM on September 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
Changing schools won't stop the bullying/ mean girl crap in this age of social media.
Does the counselor have her back? Can she go see him/her at any time during the school day?
Is she on good terms with the other kids in track?
posted by brujita at 5:18 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Does the counselor have her back? Can she go see him/her at any time during the school day?
Is she on good terms with the other kids in track?
posted by brujita at 5:18 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
She's 11 and you're saying this problem has gone on consistently for a month. That's a long time when you're 11. If it doesn't improve in 6 weeks would you change schools? 8 weeks? A semester? Do you have a timeline of when you'd make a change?
I'll be honest. I wasn't bullied or a bully, but I was once an 11 year old girl What's happening to your daughter sounds like bullying.
Even if you're correct that it's not bullying, how much is she learning in a school where she's miserable? It doesn't matter if its a great charter school if she's not learning.
posted by 26.2 at 5:19 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'll be honest. I wasn't bullied or a bully, but I was once an 11 year old girl What's happening to your daughter sounds like bullying.
Even if you're correct that it's not bullying, how much is she learning in a school where she's miserable? It doesn't matter if its a great charter school if she's not learning.
posted by 26.2 at 5:19 PM on September 22, 2013 [2 favorites]
Do you know whether your state has laws about bullying/harassment/intimidation?
Have you asked your school about district policy on these things and what it does to enforce that policy? I think you make sure whatever school your daughter winds up at, whether she stays at her current one or winds up moving, has a policy they are committed to enforcing.
I teach in NJ, and our state has tough anti-bullying laws requiring me to report suspected harassment/intimidation/bullying within 24 hours, even if I witness it outside a school context. I would definitely report it if a student described a pattern of social exclusion being orchestrated by a former group of friends. Don't make the call on your own that behavior is "just being mean" and not bullying. Please talk to someone at the school if you haven't already.
posted by alphanerd at 5:29 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Have you asked your school about district policy on these things and what it does to enforce that policy? I think you make sure whatever school your daughter winds up at, whether she stays at her current one or winds up moving, has a policy they are committed to enforcing.
I teach in NJ, and our state has tough anti-bullying laws requiring me to report suspected harassment/intimidation/bullying within 24 hours, even if I witness it outside a school context. I would definitely report it if a student described a pattern of social exclusion being orchestrated by a former group of friends. Don't make the call on your own that behavior is "just being mean" and not bullying. Please talk to someone at the school if you haven't already.
posted by alphanerd at 5:29 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
Be glad that your daughter is actually telling you about the bullying, and it is bullying. I was bullied for most of middle school and never told my parents because I didn't think there was anything they would be able to do about it. I didn't really have the option of changing schools but I did have supportive friends and good teachers. If she is being bullied by her "friends" and the are other schools she could go to, I would seriously consider that.
Middle school was the worst two years of my life and I know it was a bad time for many young people but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make it better when we can.
posted by amapolaroja at 5:30 PM on September 22, 2013
Middle school was the worst two years of my life and I know it was a bad time for many young people but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make it better when we can.
posted by amapolaroja at 5:30 PM on September 22, 2013
I'm an Australian highschool teacher, my desk is in the Year 7 office (year 7 is our first year out of elementary school) and I deal with a bunch of middle school transition issues.
A few things I've noticed in your question and your follow up:
IB program: is there now extra (real or imagined) academic pressure on your daughter? This could be really anxiety producing, especially if her friendship support group is not there. We find that some of our bright kids in the competitive entry accelerated program struggle with the pressure, even though they are able to achieve at that level. IB is demanding, but when you are 11 you don't need to be stressing about your end of high-school results just yet! I've found in my brief experience with IB is that there is a bit of aloofness- a bit of "yep, we're smart" that your daughter might be struggling with.
Split custody: 60:40- how does this work out in practice? Is your daughter spending weekends with her mum and the weekdays with you? Or is she going to stay with mum during the school week? Some split family kids deal really well with this, but others struggle, especially if this is new. I'm assuming that in middle school you have different teachers for different subjects, go to different classrooms, have a locker, etc. It can be stressful keeping track of where all your stuff is and what you need when. I have had many kids say "I couldn't do my homework because I was at Dad's" or "no, I forgot that at mum's house" - being transient is not good for school work (it's really bad for our troubled kids who effectively couch surf between relatives.)
Bullying: it's really hard, as a staff member, to deal with this issue. I'm not saying we should give up, but it frustrates me that this catty behaviour is so secret and hidden (punch ups in the yard are so much easier to deal with!) Keep telling her that she needs to tell the teacher if something is wrong. The teachers can't do stuff about problems if they don't know about them.
The age: Hormones. Not only is your daughter changing school types, she's changing bodies. So is everyone else, and this is crazy. There's not much you can do about this one, and hormones aren't an excuse for poor behaviour, but man, it does have an effect.
This crap that is happening to her and a difficult situation is probably affecting her ability to learn and to feel good about her learning. This just adds to the stress of IB.
I'm sensing a bit of the "go to the IB school, get into a good college, get a good job, be happy" pressure, especially if this is the only IB school in the area. The fact is, you don't need that to be happy.
A happy child will engage with their learning and do well- it's the old "relax and it will work better than if you tense up" theory.
So: changing schools. It could work, it might not. If you do change, make sure you let the administration know why you are leaving. It might help change the culture at the school for the next kid. What about exploring the idea of changing classes, away from those 'friends' as a first step, if she wants to stay with the IB program.
posted by titanium_geek at 5:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
A few things I've noticed in your question and your follow up:
IB program: is there now extra (real or imagined) academic pressure on your daughter? This could be really anxiety producing, especially if her friendship support group is not there. We find that some of our bright kids in the competitive entry accelerated program struggle with the pressure, even though they are able to achieve at that level. IB is demanding, but when you are 11 you don't need to be stressing about your end of high-school results just yet! I've found in my brief experience with IB is that there is a bit of aloofness- a bit of "yep, we're smart" that your daughter might be struggling with.
Split custody: 60:40- how does this work out in practice? Is your daughter spending weekends with her mum and the weekdays with you? Or is she going to stay with mum during the school week? Some split family kids deal really well with this, but others struggle, especially if this is new. I'm assuming that in middle school you have different teachers for different subjects, go to different classrooms, have a locker, etc. It can be stressful keeping track of where all your stuff is and what you need when. I have had many kids say "I couldn't do my homework because I was at Dad's" or "no, I forgot that at mum's house" - being transient is not good for school work (it's really bad for our troubled kids who effectively couch surf between relatives.)
Bullying: it's really hard, as a staff member, to deal with this issue. I'm not saying we should give up, but it frustrates me that this catty behaviour is so secret and hidden (punch ups in the yard are so much easier to deal with!) Keep telling her that she needs to tell the teacher if something is wrong. The teachers can't do stuff about problems if they don't know about them.
The age: Hormones. Not only is your daughter changing school types, she's changing bodies. So is everyone else, and this is crazy. There's not much you can do about this one, and hormones aren't an excuse for poor behaviour, but man, it does have an effect.
This crap that is happening to her and a difficult situation is probably affecting her ability to learn and to feel good about her learning. This just adds to the stress of IB.
I'm sensing a bit of the "go to the IB school, get into a good college, get a good job, be happy" pressure, especially if this is the only IB school in the area. The fact is, you don't need that to be happy.
A happy child will engage with their learning and do well- it's the old "relax and it will work better than if you tense up" theory.
So: changing schools. It could work, it might not. If you do change, make sure you let the administration know why you are leaving. It might help change the culture at the school for the next kid. What about exploring the idea of changing classes, away from those 'friends' as a first step, if she wants to stay with the IB program.
posted by titanium_geek at 5:31 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
Former middle school teacher and one thing I'll add is that if she switches schools, she will be the new girl during a period where most kids were new to each other and have begun forming social cliques (assuming the new school is a blending of multiple elementary schools or a brand new school where few kids already have friends). If that's the situation, because I've seen it over and over again, she will probably have a very hard time making new friends since all the kids are already getting to know each other and forming friendships and she will be largely invisible. Or that's been my experience.
posted by kinetic at 5:38 PM on September 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by kinetic at 5:38 PM on September 22, 2013 [6 favorites]
I'd like to echo what others are saying that it really sounds like your daughter is being bullied. What specifically makes you say it's just meanness and not bullying?
posted by medusa at 5:39 PM on September 22, 2013
posted by medusa at 5:39 PM on September 22, 2013
I've found in my brief experience with IB is that there is a bit of aloofness- a bit of "yep, we're smart" that your daughter might be struggling with.
If this is the first time IB (or gifted) kids have been split off, what happened to her (former?) friends? Gifted programs are what got me through school, but it made all of us a target. (There was also some epic drama among the girls in the gifted program in the seventh grade. I have no idea what happened, but they split into two camps and hated each other for a while.)
posted by hoyland at 5:44 PM on September 22, 2013
If this is the first time IB (or gifted) kids have been split off, what happened to her (former?) friends? Gifted programs are what got me through school, but it made all of us a target. (There was also some epic drama among the girls in the gifted program in the seventh grade. I have no idea what happened, but they split into two camps and hated each other for a while.)
posted by hoyland at 5:44 PM on September 22, 2013
I went from a small, supportive elementary school (approx. 400 students) to a large, much more chaotic middle school (approx. 1500 students). I was a good student who continued to care about my grades and to keep up in class, so in that sense the transition went smoothly. However, I wasn't emotionally or socially mature enough to navigate such a complex environment well (and a large middle school is a *very* complex environment, even by adult standards, and especially compared to an elementary school). I tried my best, but the truth was that, at ten or eleven, I wasn't there developmentally. Even things like changing classes all day, with the constantly changing social dynamics and the need to constantly re-define yourself that went along with that, was really beyond me at that point. What happened was that I developed a lot of shortcuts and coping strategies that were ultimately counterproductive, but that have dogged me anyway, and I was miserable the entire time that I tried to play catch-up, which has dogged me as well.
This could be a very good school that has institutional requirements that your daughter is just not developmentally ready to meet, in which case I think changing schools could make a world of difference. If she hasn't matured to that level, then she just hasn't yet, and asking her to ramp up the maturity to keep pace would be like demanding she get to a certain bra size by next month.
Personally, I would be open to looking at schools, and seeing if any seem like a better fit than this one is. The sunk cost of spending her first month or so in the "wrong" school isn't really that large if changing schools would make her middle school experience as a whole better. It sounds like the social issues are just part of it -- she's so overwhelmed she's closeting herself in the bathroom to throw up. To me, that seems like the environment as a whole isn't suited to her (right now, in this grade), and if nothing else, taking those institutional burdens off might make the social process easier emotionally. Even if she has to go to a large, chaotic high school and that transition is also difficult in time, she'll be a lot more ready to meet it at the maturity level of a fourteen-year-old than she is now at eleven.
posted by rue72 at 5:46 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
This could be a very good school that has institutional requirements that your daughter is just not developmentally ready to meet, in which case I think changing schools could make a world of difference. If she hasn't matured to that level, then she just hasn't yet, and asking her to ramp up the maturity to keep pace would be like demanding she get to a certain bra size by next month.
Personally, I would be open to looking at schools, and seeing if any seem like a better fit than this one is. The sunk cost of spending her first month or so in the "wrong" school isn't really that large if changing schools would make her middle school experience as a whole better. It sounds like the social issues are just part of it -- she's so overwhelmed she's closeting herself in the bathroom to throw up. To me, that seems like the environment as a whole isn't suited to her (right now, in this grade), and if nothing else, taking those institutional burdens off might make the social process easier emotionally. Even if she has to go to a large, chaotic high school and that transition is also difficult in time, she'll be a lot more ready to meet it at the maturity level of a fourteen-year-old than she is now at eleven.
posted by rue72 at 5:46 PM on September 22, 2013 [3 favorites]
One of the things I like best about being an adult is that when your circumstances are making you miserable -- e.g. you have a shitty job, your relationship sucks, you hate the town you live in -- you have the power to leave and find a better one. Middle schoolers don't have that option. I tolerated stuff in middle school that would make me immediately resign if they'd happened at any of my jobs. And not only do middle schoolers not have the power to change their circumstances, they're years away from developing the insight, perspective, or coping mechanisms to really handle what they're going through. They need whatever help they can get.
I wanted to switch schools so, so badly as a middle schooler. I would have been over the moon if my parents had given me the option to switch schools. In all honesty, it probably would not have solved all my problems; I was one of those awkward weird kids who would have had trouble fitting in anywhere. But it probably would have helped: it would have given me a clean slate, and maybe my social status would have been promoted to "invisible" instead of "untouchable."
I think it's okay to let switching be an option for your daughter. Don't frame this as running away from her problems; frame it as taking her concerns and well-being seriously. Temper her expectations a little by letting her know that a new school may not solve everything, but it can help, and you and her mother can help her work on the things it doesn't solve. And let her have an active role in the decision: ask her to brainstorm things she'd like in her ideal school, for example.
Be careful in your phrasing when you try to reassure her; don't tell her that this is something "everyone goes through." I think it is okay to say that a lot of people have a tough time in middle school and it's not their fault and it gets better, but you aren't ever going to convince her that Hailey Popularski is having just as miserable a time as she is, because it's patently untrue by any measure that she can observe.
It's good that she likes track, but I'd also advise finding a non-school-affiliated extracurricular activity that she likes. Something where she can meet kids from different schools and see that there's life outside her school's universe. It can be a really good way to meet friends who aren't part of the specific social hierarchy at her school.
One last thing: when I was a moody, bullied middle schooler, I felt closer to my mom than my dad, though of course I loved them both very much. I'm sure that didn't make my dad feel too good. But there were a lot of things I felt more comfortable talking to my mom about. If your daughter starts going to your mom when she has problems and leaves you out of the loop, don't try to force it or compete for her attention. Just offer support in the ways that you can, and pay attention to what seems to help her.
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:51 PM on September 22, 2013 [11 favorites]
I wanted to switch schools so, so badly as a middle schooler. I would have been over the moon if my parents had given me the option to switch schools. In all honesty, it probably would not have solved all my problems; I was one of those awkward weird kids who would have had trouble fitting in anywhere. But it probably would have helped: it would have given me a clean slate, and maybe my social status would have been promoted to "invisible" instead of "untouchable."
I think it's okay to let switching be an option for your daughter. Don't frame this as running away from her problems; frame it as taking her concerns and well-being seriously. Temper her expectations a little by letting her know that a new school may not solve everything, but it can help, and you and her mother can help her work on the things it doesn't solve. And let her have an active role in the decision: ask her to brainstorm things she'd like in her ideal school, for example.
Be careful in your phrasing when you try to reassure her; don't tell her that this is something "everyone goes through." I think it is okay to say that a lot of people have a tough time in middle school and it's not their fault and it gets better, but you aren't ever going to convince her that Hailey Popularski is having just as miserable a time as she is, because it's patently untrue by any measure that she can observe.
It's good that she likes track, but I'd also advise finding a non-school-affiliated extracurricular activity that she likes. Something where she can meet kids from different schools and see that there's life outside her school's universe. It can be a really good way to meet friends who aren't part of the specific social hierarchy at her school.
One last thing: when I was a moody, bullied middle schooler, I felt closer to my mom than my dad, though of course I loved them both very much. I'm sure that didn't make my dad feel too good. But there were a lot of things I felt more comfortable talking to my mom about. If your daughter starts going to your mom when she has problems and leaves you out of the loop, don't try to force it or compete for her attention. Just offer support in the ways that you can, and pay attention to what seems to help her.
posted by Metroid Baby at 5:51 PM on September 22, 2013 [11 favorites]
I think your instincts are on track and you sound like a good, caring dad - she's lucky to have you in her life. I agree that your daughter should definitely have a say in whether or not she wants to change schools.
I also think that waiting things out is not such a bad idea. There are some middle school bullying situations where one child or a group of children are hell-bent on making another person's life miserable and that situation can really only be resolved by changing schools, but it sounds like it's not yet clear that that's what's going on here. Middle school is also just a time of social upheaval, where most kids feel lonely or picked on at some point. It's awful but you're right that it is normal and common (although I agree with other posters that this isn't a particularly helpful or supportive thing to be saying to your daughter.)
Having been a miserable middle school girl, I think the best course of action is to keep doing what you're doing. Let her know that changing schools is an option, let her know you've available to listen, but unless there's real evidence of bullying, not just meanness, I think waiting until the semester is over to make a decision about changing schools would be just fine and I agree with your cautiousness about making a big change so early in the year. A semester time frame gives her more of a chance to adjust and make the situation work for her, but if it never works it's still not a huge amount of time that is likely to ruin her entire middle school experience.
posted by horizons at 6:04 PM on September 22, 2013
I also think that waiting things out is not such a bad idea. There are some middle school bullying situations where one child or a group of children are hell-bent on making another person's life miserable and that situation can really only be resolved by changing schools, but it sounds like it's not yet clear that that's what's going on here. Middle school is also just a time of social upheaval, where most kids feel lonely or picked on at some point. It's awful but you're right that it is normal and common (although I agree with other posters that this isn't a particularly helpful or supportive thing to be saying to your daughter.)
Having been a miserable middle school girl, I think the best course of action is to keep doing what you're doing. Let her know that changing schools is an option, let her know you've available to listen, but unless there's real evidence of bullying, not just meanness, I think waiting until the semester is over to make a decision about changing schools would be just fine and I agree with your cautiousness about making a big change so early in the year. A semester time frame gives her more of a chance to adjust and make the situation work for her, but if it never works it's still not a huge amount of time that is likely to ruin her entire middle school experience.
posted by horizons at 6:04 PM on September 22, 2013
Mod note: helpful constructive answers, folks
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:24 PM on September 22, 2013
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:24 PM on September 22, 2013
Throwing up out of anxiety, crying or wanting to nearly every day for a month is well out of transition and into developing anxiety and depression.
Just mean and not bullying is, to be blunt, bullshit. Meanness to the point of exclusion, throwing up and crying is bullying.
On top of this social nonsense, your daughter is having to hit the ground running academically. This is brutal on the top of the hormonal thing. Your mantras address NONE of that and instead present a very lovely adult view of life. The Imposter Syndrome isn't the problem for your daughter, it's the fact that she is being excluded by people who used to be her friends, in a new and challenging environment emotionally and academically, and now her parents are arguing about what to do.
I mean, I'm 32 and doing my PhD but my performance slipped and my anxiety went into overdrive because I had a few months of social isolation (that wasn't even due to people being mean!) - expecting MORE of an eleven year old out of a desire to give her 'skills' and 'resilience' isn't helping her.
I'd be looking at different schools myself, and having a deep dive into her social media presence. I'd be working on finding out the exact social issues and never ever minimising them as 'just mean' when they're causing such damage. I'd be discussing the goal of IB as well, and how important it is. The desire to 'get through in spite' and 'tough it out' are a sunk cost fallacy, particularly given how long it has already gone on. How can the poor girl study effectively in that amount of tumoil? With that amount of stress?
posted by geek anachronism at 7:34 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
Just mean and not bullying is, to be blunt, bullshit. Meanness to the point of exclusion, throwing up and crying is bullying.
On top of this social nonsense, your daughter is having to hit the ground running academically. This is brutal on the top of the hormonal thing. Your mantras address NONE of that and instead present a very lovely adult view of life. The Imposter Syndrome isn't the problem for your daughter, it's the fact that she is being excluded by people who used to be her friends, in a new and challenging environment emotionally and academically, and now her parents are arguing about what to do.
I mean, I'm 32 and doing my PhD but my performance slipped and my anxiety went into overdrive because I had a few months of social isolation (that wasn't even due to people being mean!) - expecting MORE of an eleven year old out of a desire to give her 'skills' and 'resilience' isn't helping her.
I'd be looking at different schools myself, and having a deep dive into her social media presence. I'd be working on finding out the exact social issues and never ever minimising them as 'just mean' when they're causing such damage. I'd be discussing the goal of IB as well, and how important it is. The desire to 'get through in spite' and 'tough it out' are a sunk cost fallacy, particularly given how long it has already gone on. How can the poor girl study effectively in that amount of tumoil? With that amount of stress?
posted by geek anachronism at 7:34 PM on September 22, 2013 [7 favorites]
I attended four different after-school programs in elementary school. The first two were decent enough places, had some assholes but were generally pretty nice places to spend my time. I occasionally hated them, but mostly I didn't have any complaints. I had to leave both of those because of switching schools, not by choice.
The third one, I was locking myself in the bathroom and sobbing on a near-daily basis to escape from the complete chaos and relentless bullying, which the adults in charge would do absolutely nothing about. At this point I was about a year and a half younger than your daughter.
My parents pulled me out about two or three months into this, and put me in another- more expensive, less convenient, but better managed- program. At the very least they saved me years upon years of therapy by doing this. It's possible they saved my life- I was not doing well by the end of my experience there. This all happened about 15 years ago and typing it out now, I am still so full of gratitude for the fact that they believed me and went out of their way to help me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:24 PM on September 22, 2013
The third one, I was locking myself in the bathroom and sobbing on a near-daily basis to escape from the complete chaos and relentless bullying, which the adults in charge would do absolutely nothing about. At this point I was about a year and a half younger than your daughter.
My parents pulled me out about two or three months into this, and put me in another- more expensive, less convenient, but better managed- program. At the very least they saved me years upon years of therapy by doing this. It's possible they saved my life- I was not doing well by the end of my experience there. This all happened about 15 years ago and typing it out now, I am still so full of gratitude for the fact that they believed me and went out of their way to help me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:24 PM on September 22, 2013
Decathecting puts it beautifully (sorry I don't know how to link to an answer, it's a few down from your update). I think that seriously investigating other schools and seeing if you can find one that might be a better fit is the best option. I also had a brutal transition from elementary to middle school - going from a small hippie private school to a large public middle school - and I am eternally grateful that my parents listened to me when I told them I wasn't going back after Christmas vacation, that I hated it and it was making me miserable.
I spent the rest of the year at a school near where my dad lived - it wasn't great, but it was smaller and therefore easier to handle, and even though I didn't like it I was just grateful not to be at the other school. I switched schools again the year after, to a private school back near my mom. If you can make the change earlier in the year, and straight to a school that she might thrive at, that would be the best. I only wish I had realized sooner that I didn't have to stay in that horrible place. It was only being out of it for vacation and making myself ill thinking of going back that made me take my stand. I thought I would die if I had to go back, but I fully expected to be forced to do so. I hadn't thought to ask to leave sooner, because I didn't realize it was possible. Our options are so limited at that age, allowing her to choose to leave would be a tremendous gift.
Your daughter sounds like she is in a desperate situation and I strongly urge you to consider this an emergency and to take emergency measures. Her current environment sounds very toxic, and a change of schools, though it may not fix everything - life is very hard at that age - I think is absolutely worth trying if she can find one she thinks she could be more comfortable at.
posted by sumiami at 8:42 PM on September 22, 2013
I spent the rest of the year at a school near where my dad lived - it wasn't great, but it was smaller and therefore easier to handle, and even though I didn't like it I was just grateful not to be at the other school. I switched schools again the year after, to a private school back near my mom. If you can make the change earlier in the year, and straight to a school that she might thrive at, that would be the best. I only wish I had realized sooner that I didn't have to stay in that horrible place. It was only being out of it for vacation and making myself ill thinking of going back that made me take my stand. I thought I would die if I had to go back, but I fully expected to be forced to do so. I hadn't thought to ask to leave sooner, because I didn't realize it was possible. Our options are so limited at that age, allowing her to choose to leave would be a tremendous gift.
Your daughter sounds like she is in a desperate situation and I strongly urge you to consider this an emergency and to take emergency measures. Her current environment sounds very toxic, and a change of schools, though it may not fix everything - life is very hard at that age - I think is absolutely worth trying if she can find one she thinks she could be more comfortable at.
posted by sumiami at 8:42 PM on September 22, 2013
I don't think it matters much if your daughter is being bullied, or if the kids are just being mean to her, or exactly where the line is between the two. Whether its bullying or just people being mean, your daughter is experiencing some pretty severe, life-ruining anxiety.
This school might be great for her academically, but how much is she really going to be able to learn if she's crippled with anxiety?
Another thing I think you and her mom might want to consider is therapy. In my opinion, what sticks out the most is that whatever is going on with her right now, she's unable to handle those feelings. Middle school girls are vicious little beasts--I know, I was one, and more often I was the victim of them--but when you're that age every emotion you have is constantly turned to 11 and it can be quite overwhelming.
Exclusion is absolutely cruel, by the way. My best friend from kindergarten through sixth grade decided when I was in 7th grade that I just didn't exist anymore. She never did anything to me that could be easily identified as bullying. But you know what, for me, that hurt much worse than the "regular" bullying and name-calling shit I put up with in middle school.
posted by inertia at 8:47 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
This school might be great for her academically, but how much is she really going to be able to learn if she's crippled with anxiety?
Another thing I think you and her mom might want to consider is therapy. In my opinion, what sticks out the most is that whatever is going on with her right now, she's unable to handle those feelings. Middle school girls are vicious little beasts--I know, I was one, and more often I was the victim of them--but when you're that age every emotion you have is constantly turned to 11 and it can be quite overwhelming.
Exclusion is absolutely cruel, by the way. My best friend from kindergarten through sixth grade decided when I was in 7th grade that I just didn't exist anymore. She never did anything to me that could be easily identified as bullying. But you know what, for me, that hurt much worse than the "regular" bullying and name-calling shit I put up with in middle school.
posted by inertia at 8:47 PM on September 22, 2013 [1 favorite]
At the risk of maybe derailing, I think it's useful to be careful when defining what bullying is. As mentioned above, people's informal use of the word bullying is often gendered in a way that minimizes bullying by girls as "just" meanness. I find it incredibly surprising that anyone could argue that social exclusion is not bullying. Perhaps it will help frame what is happening to your daughter to read what stopbullying.gov has to say about what bullying is:
There are three types of bullying:
Verbal bullying is saying or writing mean things. Verbal bullying includes:
Teasing
Name-calling
Inappropriate sexual comments
Taunting
Threatening to cause harm
Social bullying, sometimes referred to as relational bullying, involves hurting someone’s reputation or relationships. Social bullying includes:
Leaving someone out on purpose
Telling other children not to be friends with someone
Spreading rumors about someone
Embarrassing someone in public
Physical bullying involves hurting a person’s body or possessions. Physical bullying includes:
Hitting/kicking/pinching
Spitting
Tripping/pushing
Taking or breaking someone’s things
Making mean or rude hand gestures
If things on this list are happening to your daughter, please realize that it is bullying when you think about how to respond.
posted by medusa at 9:02 PM on September 22, 2013
There are three types of bullying:
Verbal bullying is saying or writing mean things. Verbal bullying includes:
Teasing
Name-calling
Inappropriate sexual comments
Taunting
Threatening to cause harm
Social bullying, sometimes referred to as relational bullying, involves hurting someone’s reputation or relationships. Social bullying includes:
Leaving someone out on purpose
Telling other children not to be friends with someone
Spreading rumors about someone
Embarrassing someone in public
Physical bullying involves hurting a person’s body or possessions. Physical bullying includes:
Hitting/kicking/pinching
Spitting
Tripping/pushing
Taking or breaking someone’s things
Making mean or rude hand gestures
If things on this list are happening to your daughter, please realize that it is bullying when you think about how to respond.
posted by medusa at 9:02 PM on September 22, 2013
When I read your question, I thought of an article I once read about the life of the football player Kenjon Barner having been changed profoundly for the better by his father's decision to take him out of a large inner city school and send him to a small Christian school where everyone was, if I may paraphrase his words, sincerely nice and caring.
Although his circumstances were totally different from your daughter's, I think the main point still applies, which is that changing to a more appropriate school can make a huge difference in the life of a child.
I think it's safe to assume that not all small schools would be better than her current school but some certainly would be better, even much better, because their smaller size makes then inherently more manageable.
I think by far your best choice is to look into changing schools. There is no reason your daughter should have to put up with the horrible stuff that goes on in warehouse schools. Those schools can be very damaging to a child.
posted by Dansaman at 9:23 PM on September 22, 2013
Although his circumstances were totally different from your daughter's, I think the main point still applies, which is that changing to a more appropriate school can make a huge difference in the life of a child.
I think it's safe to assume that not all small schools would be better than her current school but some certainly would be better, even much better, because their smaller size makes then inherently more manageable.
I think by far your best choice is to look into changing schools. There is no reason your daughter should have to put up with the horrible stuff that goes on in warehouse schools. Those schools can be very damaging to a child.
posted by Dansaman at 9:23 PM on September 22, 2013
Middle school was the worst years of my life. I went from a larger public elementary school to a tiny Catholic school, even though I was an atheist and all my friends went to the local public middle school. I wasn't even bullied, everyone was in fact very nice, but for a number of reasons, I wanted to kill myself every day. Obviously I had unrelated depression, but changing schools would have made a huge difference. It was totally wrong for me there, but my parents never even acknowledged their mistake, or my misery.
Maybe your daughter doesn't really want to change, or is ambivalent, but give her a choice in the matter. Bullying is "being mean," and having people that were your friends suddenly turn on you is extremely painful - imagine if it happened to you now as an adult: it would still hurt, but you are emotionally and mentally equipped to deal with it. An 11 year old is not, and doesn't have the experience to put things into perspective.
Your daughter clearly has severe anxiety, outside the realms of normal middle school awfulness. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get her therapy. Just acknowledgement that there is an issue, and support, can make such a huge difference. I suffered for years, because even though something was clearly wrong, my parents chose to turn a blind eye, which just made me question myself more. For me a simple pill makes all the difference, but even just talking to someone will help. Anxiety can be excruciating, and social anxiety can be even worse. Please get your daughter help, and consider changing schools if she thinks it will help.
posted by catatethebird at 12:19 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe your daughter doesn't really want to change, or is ambivalent, but give her a choice in the matter. Bullying is "being mean," and having people that were your friends suddenly turn on you is extremely painful - imagine if it happened to you now as an adult: it would still hurt, but you are emotionally and mentally equipped to deal with it. An 11 year old is not, and doesn't have the experience to put things into perspective.
Your daughter clearly has severe anxiety, outside the realms of normal middle school awfulness. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get her therapy. Just acknowledgement that there is an issue, and support, can make such a huge difference. I suffered for years, because even though something was clearly wrong, my parents chose to turn a blind eye, which just made me question myself more. For me a simple pill makes all the difference, but even just talking to someone will help. Anxiety can be excruciating, and social anxiety can be even worse. Please get your daughter help, and consider changing schools if she thinks it will help.
posted by catatethebird at 12:19 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Have a long conversation with your daughter about the pros and cons of staying. Ask her if she wants to change school - and then let her.
Don't let this issue get tangled up in your custody issues with the mom. It'll make it so much harder for all of you but especially for your daughter, if telling you what she needs means she has to take sides.
I get that it's unfair, the mom overriding your decision like that. But life after divorce is unfair. And her mom may be desperate because she understands how much your daughter is suffering. She feels just as strongly as you about doing the right thing for your daughter and will fight for it.
Lastly, offer your daughter therapy. I wish someone had thought of that for me because school made me unhappy in a way I couldn't sort out alone.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:56 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
Don't let this issue get tangled up in your custody issues with the mom. It'll make it so much harder for all of you but especially for your daughter, if telling you what she needs means she has to take sides.
I get that it's unfair, the mom overriding your decision like that. But life after divorce is unfair. And her mom may be desperate because she understands how much your daughter is suffering. She feels just as strongly as you about doing the right thing for your daughter and will fight for it.
Lastly, offer your daughter therapy. I wish someone had thought of that for me because school made me unhappy in a way I couldn't sort out alone.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:56 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
The more I think about it, I think there are several issues here that you need to deal with:
* first, cut it out with mom says one thing and dad says another. That's an awful thing to do to the kid. So talk to your ex immediately and discuss how you're going to proceed. I suggest you bite the bullet here and say you're onboard with switching.
* Second, while I'd probably move her, I wouldn't take her on tours of every possible school. That's a lot of pressure. Her mom and you should start looking at smaller schools with different atmospheres. Also, if she's really stressing about school while you're searching, pull her out right now and begin home schooling. Just get her out of there. It's only 6th grade and you're looking at a few months at most. Better for her to feel safe and supported than stressed as you put pieces into place. But I'd ask her first if she'd prefer to stay put or just leave. Let her decide that.
* Your daughter should be greatly applauded for telling you all of this. Thank her and encourage her to talk to you. It's incredibly difficult to tell your parents (esp. at that age) that your heart is hurting because school sucks. Do your best to reassure her that you will always be there for her and to help her with hard times.
posted by kinetic at 3:20 AM on September 23, 2013
* first, cut it out with mom says one thing and dad says another. That's an awful thing to do to the kid. So talk to your ex immediately and discuss how you're going to proceed. I suggest you bite the bullet here and say you're onboard with switching.
* Second, while I'd probably move her, I wouldn't take her on tours of every possible school. That's a lot of pressure. Her mom and you should start looking at smaller schools with different atmospheres. Also, if she's really stressing about school while you're searching, pull her out right now and begin home schooling. Just get her out of there. It's only 6th grade and you're looking at a few months at most. Better for her to feel safe and supported than stressed as you put pieces into place. But I'd ask her first if she'd prefer to stay put or just leave. Let her decide that.
* Your daughter should be greatly applauded for telling you all of this. Thank her and encourage her to talk to you. It's incredibly difficult to tell your parents (esp. at that age) that your heart is hurting because school sucks. Do your best to reassure her that you will always be there for her and to help her with hard times.
posted by kinetic at 3:20 AM on September 23, 2013
Response by poster: lots of thoughtful responses here, thank you.
- I did explore the bullying vs mean issue last night and there is one specific class she would like to switch out of. I am dealing with that this morning. We'll be talking more about this, she and I.
- I can't in good conscience put all the responsibility for switching on an 11yo i.e. let her decide. I've too often seen where kids given that much agency at his age really take it hard if it doesn't work out.
- 'Normal'. No it's not normal to puke from stress at school. Yes, it is within the bell curve of an 11yo to have *some* significantly stressful situation in her life. It is not her fault and I know it.
Your daughter clearly has severe anxiety, outside the realms of normal middle school awfulness. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get her therapy.
This is in process. Already had one meeting with her counselor (whom we know from the divorce era). This is another reason I think changing schools would be just another stressor that would not really resolve anything.
Any further thoughts are welcome, I am so grateful for all the ideas.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:58 AM on September 23, 2013
- I did explore the bullying vs mean issue last night and there is one specific class she would like to switch out of. I am dealing with that this morning. We'll be talking more about this, she and I.
- I can't in good conscience put all the responsibility for switching on an 11yo i.e. let her decide. I've too often seen where kids given that much agency at his age really take it hard if it doesn't work out.
- 'Normal'. No it's not normal to puke from stress at school. Yes, it is within the bell curve of an 11yo to have *some* significantly stressful situation in her life. It is not her fault and I know it.
Your daughter clearly has severe anxiety, outside the realms of normal middle school awfulness. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get her therapy.
This is in process. Already had one meeting with her counselor (whom we know from the divorce era). This is another reason I think changing schools would be just another stressor that would not really resolve anything.
Any further thoughts are welcome, I am so grateful for all the ideas.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:58 AM on September 23, 2013
Already had one meeting with her counselor (whom we know from the divorce era). This is another reason I think changing schools would be just another stressor that would not really resolve anything.
As someone with anxiety, whose anxiety started around this age, I'd highly recommend looking for a counselor who specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectic behavior therapy. Kids with anxiety often lack healthy coping mechanisms to deal with stress, and these types of therapies give them just that, whereas talk therapy can sometimes (in my experience) make things worse--especially if the kid is in a doom cycle. The therapy is something she needs to be doing regardless of what happens with school, and they should not be seen as mutually exclusive.
- I can't in good conscience put all the responsibility for switching on an 11yo i.e. let her decide. I've too often seen where kids given that much agency at his age really take it hard if it doesn't work out.
You're not letting her decide alone; you're there to support her decisions whether they turn out well or poorly, just like you're doing now with the IB school, which is clearly not working out for her. This is a time to demonstrate that you've got her back--you, and her mother, both.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:26 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
As someone with anxiety, whose anxiety started around this age, I'd highly recommend looking for a counselor who specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectic behavior therapy. Kids with anxiety often lack healthy coping mechanisms to deal with stress, and these types of therapies give them just that, whereas talk therapy can sometimes (in my experience) make things worse--especially if the kid is in a doom cycle. The therapy is something she needs to be doing regardless of what happens with school, and they should not be seen as mutually exclusive.
- I can't in good conscience put all the responsibility for switching on an 11yo i.e. let her decide. I've too often seen where kids given that much agency at his age really take it hard if it doesn't work out.
You're not letting her decide alone; you're there to support her decisions whether they turn out well or poorly, just like you're doing now with the IB school, which is clearly not working out for her. This is a time to demonstrate that you've got her back--you, and her mother, both.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 6:26 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
- Much emotional support, mostly a mantra like: You are normal, you're not the only one having a hard time, and everything will work out in the end.
When I was that age, that mantra would have translated to "Everyone else is coping just fine and you're being pathetic to be stressed over nothing. Stop whining because no-one wants to hear it." Being told those kinds of things made the anxiety and isolation worse.
Also, it's good that you know that it's not her fault. Make sure that she knows that you know it. Tell her so - repeatedly, every time the subject comes up.
posted by talitha_kumi at 7:00 AM on September 23, 2013
When I was that age, that mantra would have translated to "Everyone else is coping just fine and you're being pathetic to be stressed over nothing. Stop whining because no-one wants to hear it." Being told those kinds of things made the anxiety and isolation worse.
Also, it's good that you know that it's not her fault. Make sure that she knows that you know it. Tell her so - repeatedly, every time the subject comes up.
posted by talitha_kumi at 7:00 AM on September 23, 2013
How long ago did she join track? You said she liked it, but I don't know how long she's been there. Afterschool clubs and sports are a great way to meet new kids and get new friends which will help her to get away from the mean girls. However, given the stress she's been under with her past friends it may take awhile to form these new friendships. It sounds like you have several plans that you are work on with her that are helping. I think you may need to give them more of a chance to work and revisit switching later if you don't see any improvement/she's still really unhappy. Changing schools mid year is definitely going to be weird and put her on the radar of bullying the new kid concept, but may be worth it later, but I can't see it being the way I'd go right now, especially since the track team has a great potential to solve a lot of the problems you mentioned.
posted by katers890 at 7:07 AM on September 23, 2013
posted by katers890 at 7:07 AM on September 23, 2013
The public school model is a pretty horrible way to get an education.
So she thought she wanted to go to this school, a lot of that decsion may have been made because this was the school her 'friends' wanted to go to. Now that they're being mean to her, she doesn't like it.
There's no harm in looking at other schools. Get on board, don't just dig your heels in because you think her mom is undermining you. It's not about you.
A smaller school may be a better solution than the school she's in now. A school with a different focus, or a parochial school.
Different kids respond in different ways.
The good news is that with all the hormones and the bullshit that happens at that age, the actual academics are beside the point. Middle School really is about the social development and shifting from being a kid to being a young adult (in the broadest sense of course.)
I'm sure you think that she can stick it out in the school she's in, but you know what, in the grand scheme of things this is NOT the hill you want to die on here. If switching to a new school offers the hope of an easier transition and less stress, that's valuable at this age.
At least relent and look at different places with Mom and your daughter. Be open to the fact that a different enviornment might do your daughter a world of good.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:10 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
So she thought she wanted to go to this school, a lot of that decsion may have been made because this was the school her 'friends' wanted to go to. Now that they're being mean to her, she doesn't like it.
There's no harm in looking at other schools. Get on board, don't just dig your heels in because you think her mom is undermining you. It's not about you.
A smaller school may be a better solution than the school she's in now. A school with a different focus, or a parochial school.
Different kids respond in different ways.
The good news is that with all the hormones and the bullshit that happens at that age, the actual academics are beside the point. Middle School really is about the social development and shifting from being a kid to being a young adult (in the broadest sense of course.)
I'm sure you think that she can stick it out in the school she's in, but you know what, in the grand scheme of things this is NOT the hill you want to die on here. If switching to a new school offers the hope of an easier transition and less stress, that's valuable at this age.
At least relent and look at different places with Mom and your daughter. Be open to the fact that a different enviornment might do your daughter a world of good.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:10 AM on September 23, 2013 [1 favorite]
I appreciate that you are really trying hard to help your daughter and find the best resolution for this situation. It sounds like you have gone back to her and had another talk with her about the specific problems she is having. You are really trying to understand, and I think that's great.
While you are trying to figure things out, please consider that you might not really understand middle school girl behavior, and that your daughter might not yet have the right tools to explain it to you. Have you at least considered this? That you are not a girl and you don't necessarily understand the demoralizing effect that the continually mean and "you are not one of us" remarks and behavior that middle school girls can engage in can have on her psyche?
I was confused by your description of the situation -- that her circle of friends had changed and some were isolating her or being outright mean. It sounds to me like her circle of friends hasn't so much changed as it has disappeared.
I say this as a girl who was different and picked on and isolated in various ways throughout middle school and just sucked it up and wound up being very creative and getting into an ivy league school and thriving as an adult. And I know some of the hardship I went through made me stronger. But I was at a very small school. It is not clear to me from your responses that even now you're not minimizing what she is going through or that you are really clearly getting it, or even really getting that you might not really be getting it. Please do consider that even now you may not have the full picture, or even really be equipped to understand the whole picture.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:21 AM on September 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
While you are trying to figure things out, please consider that you might not really understand middle school girl behavior, and that your daughter might not yet have the right tools to explain it to you. Have you at least considered this? That you are not a girl and you don't necessarily understand the demoralizing effect that the continually mean and "you are not one of us" remarks and behavior that middle school girls can engage in can have on her psyche?
I was confused by your description of the situation -- that her circle of friends had changed and some were isolating her or being outright mean. It sounds to me like her circle of friends hasn't so much changed as it has disappeared.
I say this as a girl who was different and picked on and isolated in various ways throughout middle school and just sucked it up and wound up being very creative and getting into an ivy league school and thriving as an adult. And I know some of the hardship I went through made me stronger. But I was at a very small school. It is not clear to me from your responses that even now you're not minimizing what she is going through or that you are really clearly getting it, or even really getting that you might not really be getting it. Please do consider that even now you may not have the full picture, or even really be equipped to understand the whole picture.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:21 AM on September 23, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: First thing I want to say is I am so glad that you and her Mom are boy taking this seriously. You sound like good, caring parents who have vastly different parenting styles (I imagine you know about all that, though, right? hence the divorce).
Also, I take it as a given that you and her Mom know your daughter better than any of us. You are going to see some answers here that bother you because they are so far off the mark for your specific situation. So take the advice here with a grain of salt, and don't let yourself start feeling defensive. There may be good advice wrapped up in some of those misperceptions, even so. If not, just ignore and move on.
I say that because I can tell Mom's take is making you feel defensive. Maybe your different parenting styles were a source of friction in the marriage, too. If you want an objective perspective, what you see as undermining you is, in my opinion, her Mom reacting protectively to her daughter being so desperately unhappy. Mom feels helpless, and this is her way of responding. Now, you may have said to Mom, we're not changing schools, and she may even have agreed. So now you feel like she went behind your back after you were both being rational and logical about this. It could be that calculated, sure. or it could be that she was sincere but broke down after a month of worrying about your daughter, and now she is reacting to the anxiety and unhappiness, and just wants to do anything to change that. It does not HAVE to be a calculated move on her part. It could just be your ex responding emotionally to an emotional situation.
You are reacting to what you see as the source of the problems: the size of the school, the class period where she is experiencing the isolation or meanness, your daughter's coping skills. You are trying to come at this logically, and I get that.
Can I just suggest to you that both approaches are valid? Both of you want to help and are trying the best ways you know how to do that. If you could find a middle ground, it would be so much more effective and positive for your daughter!
Middle school is...not always a logical place. Your daughter is dealing with conflicting teacher agendas, conflicting loyalties among her friends, a hugely unwelcoming and unfamiliar landscape and her own insecurities. There is only so much logic can do. The school system is a law into itself, and each school has its own, often dysfunctional, hierarchy for dealing with the day-to-day crap. Some of that you are just not going to be able to change, no matter how badly it needs changing, and when that happens, switching schools is actually a logical response.
I would suggest, based on what has worked for me in the past, that you meet with the teachers, your daughter and her Mom at the same time, and use your different perspectives to your combined advantage. Each of you may well be seeing something the other is missing.
If it becomes clear that you need to change schools, accept that graciously, for your daughter's sake, while also pointing out to Mom that the transition is going to be emotionally tough for daughter, too, so she needs to be prepared for that.
Also, Mom needs to realize that the choice of new school should be more logical than just any school your daughter wants, so that you don't run into the same issues again. Sounds like you want a smaller school--but not so small that your daughter will feel excluded because the other kids have all known each other since forever--which also offers the kind of academic challenge your daughter needs. You want a school which is as proactive as possible about bullying, and the different forms it takes, and has a process to help students recognize and cope with bullying.
And you and Mom need to be aware of, and have rules for, your daughter's social media access outside of the classroom in case the meanness extends outside of the classroom.
posted by misha at 9:06 AM on September 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
Also, I take it as a given that you and her Mom know your daughter better than any of us. You are going to see some answers here that bother you because they are so far off the mark for your specific situation. So take the advice here with a grain of salt, and don't let yourself start feeling defensive. There may be good advice wrapped up in some of those misperceptions, even so. If not, just ignore and move on.
I say that because I can tell Mom's take is making you feel defensive. Maybe your different parenting styles were a source of friction in the marriage, too. If you want an objective perspective, what you see as undermining you is, in my opinion, her Mom reacting protectively to her daughter being so desperately unhappy. Mom feels helpless, and this is her way of responding. Now, you may have said to Mom, we're not changing schools, and she may even have agreed. So now you feel like she went behind your back after you were both being rational and logical about this. It could be that calculated, sure. or it could be that she was sincere but broke down after a month of worrying about your daughter, and now she is reacting to the anxiety and unhappiness, and just wants to do anything to change that. It does not HAVE to be a calculated move on her part. It could just be your ex responding emotionally to an emotional situation.
You are reacting to what you see as the source of the problems: the size of the school, the class period where she is experiencing the isolation or meanness, your daughter's coping skills. You are trying to come at this logically, and I get that.
Can I just suggest to you that both approaches are valid? Both of you want to help and are trying the best ways you know how to do that. If you could find a middle ground, it would be so much more effective and positive for your daughter!
Middle school is...not always a logical place. Your daughter is dealing with conflicting teacher agendas, conflicting loyalties among her friends, a hugely unwelcoming and unfamiliar landscape and her own insecurities. There is only so much logic can do. The school system is a law into itself, and each school has its own, often dysfunctional, hierarchy for dealing with the day-to-day crap. Some of that you are just not going to be able to change, no matter how badly it needs changing, and when that happens, switching schools is actually a logical response.
I would suggest, based on what has worked for me in the past, that you meet with the teachers, your daughter and her Mom at the same time, and use your different perspectives to your combined advantage. Each of you may well be seeing something the other is missing.
If it becomes clear that you need to change schools, accept that graciously, for your daughter's sake, while also pointing out to Mom that the transition is going to be emotionally tough for daughter, too, so she needs to be prepared for that.
Also, Mom needs to realize that the choice of new school should be more logical than just any school your daughter wants, so that you don't run into the same issues again. Sounds like you want a smaller school--but not so small that your daughter will feel excluded because the other kids have all known each other since forever--which also offers the kind of academic challenge your daughter needs. You want a school which is as proactive as possible about bullying, and the different forms it takes, and has a process to help students recognize and cope with bullying.
And you and Mom need to be aware of, and have rules for, your daughter's social media access outside of the classroom in case the meanness extends outside of the classroom.
posted by misha at 9:06 AM on September 23, 2013 [2 favorites]
there is one specific class she would like to switch out of
OK, so it's Monday, and it's got to be at least 10 AM where you live, assuming you're in the US. Have you called the school to look into this yet? Is there another section she can be moved to? If it's an elective, can she be put in something else? If it's mandatory, can she move up or down* a level?
These are the kinds of little things that I wish my parents had done to stick up for me when I was your daughter's age and in her exact situation. Not that I wish they'd called to complain about every little thing I didn't like, but I had one class I absolutely hated. I happened to be in there with a bunch of the kids who were bullying me, and the teacher and I really didn't gel, and my work was suffering for it, and it was a class where the deck was academically stacked against me already but which I had to take for Reasons. The whole thing was like a microcosm of everything that made junior high awful.
I even used to tell my parents how much it stressed me out, and their solution was to get me a tutor which was scheduled at the same time as the one activity that actually brought me a degree of sanity. Which of course made everything worse, because my failure in this class -- which was tied in with my social failure -- resulted in the one thing I really liked getting taken away.
*Also, seriously do not be afraid to have her take not the most advanced level of every course the school offers. Seriously, she is not going to grow up to be a bum if she takes regular kid science rather than IB for a year, in sixth grade.
posted by Sara C. at 10:35 AM on September 23, 2013
OK, so it's Monday, and it's got to be at least 10 AM where you live, assuming you're in the US. Have you called the school to look into this yet? Is there another section she can be moved to? If it's an elective, can she be put in something else? If it's mandatory, can she move up or down* a level?
These are the kinds of little things that I wish my parents had done to stick up for me when I was your daughter's age and in her exact situation. Not that I wish they'd called to complain about every little thing I didn't like, but I had one class I absolutely hated. I happened to be in there with a bunch of the kids who were bullying me, and the teacher and I really didn't gel, and my work was suffering for it, and it was a class where the deck was academically stacked against me already but which I had to take for Reasons. The whole thing was like a microcosm of everything that made junior high awful.
I even used to tell my parents how much it stressed me out, and their solution was to get me a tutor which was scheduled at the same time as the one activity that actually brought me a degree of sanity. Which of course made everything worse, because my failure in this class -- which was tied in with my social failure -- resulted in the one thing I really liked getting taken away.
*Also, seriously do not be afraid to have her take not the most advanced level of every course the school offers. Seriously, she is not going to grow up to be a bum if she takes regular kid science rather than IB for a year, in sixth grade.
posted by Sara C. at 10:35 AM on September 23, 2013
Here is one way you might not be understanding the full scale of the problem.
In my experience, when girls go from being friends to not being friends or make a conscious decision not to be friends with someone new, it can sometimes (but certainly not always) involve a great deal of schadenfreude. Sometimes it's not enough for girls to just break off from their former friends or reject girls as potential friends -- but rather, having made that decision, they'd like to see that person fail in general. Like an actor who rejects a part in a film -- it almost reflects badly then on their judgment if that film goes on to succeed. So girls can (not always, but some can some of the time) very subtly undermine someone who is on the outs and very effectively make sure that they can't get in, and can keep other girls and boys in line too so they feel like they can't stick their own necks out without risking getting cut off themselves. It doesn't take much -- a little comment here and there, and the hierarchy is enforced basically through fear and stasis. It's hard to explain, but as a girl once you are "out" it can be very hard to make friends because other kids are afraid of being subtly targeted themselves. It is much different from the physical aggression and eg lunch stealing bullying that boys are traditionally represented as experiencing, I think, though I expect this same type of isolation is inflicted sometimes on boys too.
If this is happening to your daughter, she probably isn't even seeing all the subtle ways it is being enforced, just feeling the chilly, lonely effects. Similarly, teachers may have a sixth sense that something is going on, but a great deal of it happens under their radar in ways they probably can't really control. If you ask your daughter or her teachers to put into words what your daughter is feeling, what problems she is having, it may be very difficult for them to do so because it's possible they don't even comprehend the full scope of the problem, which is going to make fixing it really effing difficult. Just please be careful that if you have meetings with teachers and your daughter and the problem can't be articulated in a way that seems terribly serious to you, you still trust your daughter that something very bad and damaging is going on and keep working to find a real solution that makes life better for her. Good luck!
posted by onlyconnect at 11:47 AM on September 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
In my experience, when girls go from being friends to not being friends or make a conscious decision not to be friends with someone new, it can sometimes (but certainly not always) involve a great deal of schadenfreude. Sometimes it's not enough for girls to just break off from their former friends or reject girls as potential friends -- but rather, having made that decision, they'd like to see that person fail in general. Like an actor who rejects a part in a film -- it almost reflects badly then on their judgment if that film goes on to succeed. So girls can (not always, but some can some of the time) very subtly undermine someone who is on the outs and very effectively make sure that they can't get in, and can keep other girls and boys in line too so they feel like they can't stick their own necks out without risking getting cut off themselves. It doesn't take much -- a little comment here and there, and the hierarchy is enforced basically through fear and stasis. It's hard to explain, but as a girl once you are "out" it can be very hard to make friends because other kids are afraid of being subtly targeted themselves. It is much different from the physical aggression and eg lunch stealing bullying that boys are traditionally represented as experiencing, I think, though I expect this same type of isolation is inflicted sometimes on boys too.
If this is happening to your daughter, she probably isn't even seeing all the subtle ways it is being enforced, just feeling the chilly, lonely effects. Similarly, teachers may have a sixth sense that something is going on, but a great deal of it happens under their radar in ways they probably can't really control. If you ask your daughter or her teachers to put into words what your daughter is feeling, what problems she is having, it may be very difficult for them to do so because it's possible they don't even comprehend the full scope of the problem, which is going to make fixing it really effing difficult. Just please be careful that if you have meetings with teachers and your daughter and the problem can't be articulated in a way that seems terribly serious to you, you still trust your daughter that something very bad and damaging is going on and keep working to find a real solution that makes life better for her. Good luck!
posted by onlyconnect at 11:47 AM on September 23, 2013 [3 favorites]
I agree with the majority, and I would say get her out of there as fast as possible. The faster you get her out of there, the less likely she is to sink into "victim" mentality and carry it with her to the next school.
Middle school kids are evil little shits, and the stuff they do to each other at that age can scar you for the rest of your life.
posted by MexicanYenta at 12:50 PM on September 23, 2013
Middle school kids are evil little shits, and the stuff they do to each other at that age can scar you for the rest of your life.
posted by MexicanYenta at 12:50 PM on September 23, 2013
I was asked if I wanted to change schools when I was being severely bullied, and didn't, because I thought "this would probably occur no matter the school", ie it was me, I shouldn't 'run away', etc etc, blah blah, you can't run away from your problems, etc.
But my problems were actually other people, and changing schools absolutely would have helped.
So yes, I definitely agree with you that decisions like this shouldn't be left to 11 year olds for those reasons, but that if it was me, I'd be changing her school. Bullying is a social dynamic, and often very specific to the people involved. Change the people, no more bullying.
If she asks to change, it also says, that as parents, you have her back.
posted by Elysum at 3:01 PM on September 23, 2013
But my problems were actually other people, and changing schools absolutely would have helped.
So yes, I definitely agree with you that decisions like this shouldn't be left to 11 year olds for those reasons, but that if it was me, I'd be changing her school. Bullying is a social dynamic, and often very specific to the people involved. Change the people, no more bullying.
If she asks to change, it also says, that as parents, you have her back.
posted by Elysum at 3:01 PM on September 23, 2013
Response by poster: • She's trying out a different 2nd period today.
• I'm working on getting a mediator.
• After further conversation and observation, I think she's experiencing anxiety that probably requires clinical help.
• While I am really looking for signs of bullying, I do not currently believe that's the source.
• Probably a roundatable with the parents/teachers/counselors should happen before we try a move, I think.
special thx to misha for reminding me to look past prejudices for valuable information.
Thanks All.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:05 PM on September 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
• I'm working on getting a mediator.
• After further conversation and observation, I think she's experiencing anxiety that probably requires clinical help.
• While I am really looking for signs of bullying, I do not currently believe that's the source.
• Probably a roundatable with the parents/teachers/counselors should happen before we try a move, I think.
special thx to misha for reminding me to look past prejudices for valuable information.
Thanks All.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:05 PM on September 25, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Update:
Changed to a smaller school, everything seems to have improved. I'm a little worried that the lesson for her will be 'run away from your problems.' I'll be paying close attention to that. Otherwise, a sufficient outcome. Thanks everyone - j
posted by j_curiouser at 10:44 PM on October 12, 2013 [9 favorites]
Changed to a smaller school, everything seems to have improved. I'm a little worried that the lesson for her will be 'run away from your problems.' I'll be paying close attention to that. Otherwise, a sufficient outcome. Thanks everyone - j
posted by j_curiouser at 10:44 PM on October 12, 2013 [9 favorites]
Sometimes "running away from your problems" is exactly the right solution.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:53 AM on October 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:53 AM on October 13, 2013 [10 favorites]
« Older Worst kinds of people at Halloween attractions? | What's the name of this particular type of cotton... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by j_curiouser at 3:08 PM on September 22, 2013