Is this reasonable?

August 13, 2013 10:15 AM

I just found out that in addition to being required to work at my organization's fundraiser, employees also must pay the full ticket price to do so. In previous jobs, the situation has always been that you either work at the event and don't have to pay, or if you are not required to be there but think it's a cool event, you can pay to attend. I'm not happy about this arrangement, but maybe I'm off base. Is this a reasonable situation?
posted by anonymous to Work & Money (43 answers total)

No, it is not reasonable. You're either working or attending. You cannot do both.
posted by phunniemee at 10:18 AM on August 13, 2013 [10 favorites]

Pure, unadulterated madness. They're fleecing you.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 10:20 AM on August 13, 2013 [40 favorites]

I've always understood that this is illegal. Employees cannot be required to be there, to "volunteer" for an employer-sponsored event. If you must be there, you should have the option to flex your regular work hours an equivalent amount of time.

I can't speak to the ticket price but it seems to be adding insult to injury. Check employment law.
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 10:20 AM on August 13, 2013

100% agreed. The only exception is if they will reimburse you later. I've seen that for things where you're getting in at a discount or get tickets early to something to make sure you get them before it sells out.

If you're paying you shouldn't have to be there. If they're paying then you should 98% have to be there.Leaving open things like "My kid is sick. I'm not going, deal with it."
posted by theichibun at 10:20 AM on August 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

"I'm contributing my time and effort. Everyone else is contributing their money. If one of those things is worth less than the other, then tell me now and I'll plan accordingly to give you the best bang for the buck."
posted by Etrigan at 10:21 AM on August 13, 2013

"Reasonable"? It strikes me as probably not legal to require employees to contribute money to their employer's fundraiser. It's certainly not ethical.
posted by slkinsey at 10:22 AM on August 13, 2013 [5 favorites]

Yeah, if they are going to require you to work the event, you should be working the event -- i.e. not paying. Essentially, your office is requiring you to pay money to do your job. If it's an expensive fundraiser, I'd be pissed. It sounds like you've done this kind of work before and know what is normal. You may want to raise your concerns, see if other people are also outraged, and then go to your finance director or campaign manager about this. On the other hand, it might be best to let it go, but not if this is going to happen everytime you work a fundraiser.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:25 AM on August 13, 2013

Anonymously contact the organization that is the recipient of the fundraising. Explain that if you as an employee complain it could jeopardize your job, so could they bring this up to your employer. It's likely that they would not want to benefit from an illegal act.
posted by Sophont at 10:30 AM on August 13, 2013 [8 favorites]

HELL NO!

What on earth are they thinking?

Time to find a new job, pronto.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:31 AM on August 13, 2013 [7 favorites]

It doesn't really matter if the situation is reasonable (which it isn't), it matters what you are willing to do about it. If you aren't willing to sue your employer over this, it's likely your employers will just ignore you - I highly doubt they do not realize this is, at the least, unethical, and at worst, illegal. If you are willing to sue your employer, be prepared to be subtly forced out of the organization and never work in your field again (lawsuits don't look very good to potential employers).

The real solution here is to find a new job; your current employers have indicated they do not value your time.
posted by saeculorum at 10:32 AM on August 13, 2013 [3 favorites]

No, it's completely unreasonable. I have volunteered at events and paid for a ticket, but that's my choice and my decision to support those organizations.

That said, I have heard about similar situations and I agree that you need to consider what you want to have happen. If this has been an entrenched plan for years, your complaint may not be well-recieved.
posted by jetlagaddict at 10:37 AM on August 13, 2013

Back to say that you should consider the possibility that your employer doesn't know the law. Not unreasonable to think a small nonprofit just isnt aware. Maybe they just need to be shown the law. Find it, print it out and take it to your ED with a questioning smile. Start there.
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 10:38 AM on August 13, 2013 [4 favorites]

...or you can simply find a way to anonomously send them a link to this post. Or, perhaps better, print it out and place it in management boxes.
posted by AnOrigamiLife at 10:43 AM on August 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

This is horrendously unreasonable and I would never agree to this.

What I would do is calmly and in front of everyone ask about expensing the cost of tickets- as if it's a given and you are just confirming. If this is met with anything else then a nod, I would go with the ol' "Sorry, that won't be possible".
posted by sarahnicolesays at 10:47 AM on August 13, 2013

It's either an event, or it's work. Can't be both.
posted by scruss at 10:50 AM on August 13, 2013

Mod note: From the OP:

I neglected to mention this is a nonprofit organization, and it's small ( less than 20 people). My suspicions are that they don't realize it would not be legal, if indeed it is not. This is the first fundraiser we've had since I've worked there, and it's otherwise a fantastic job. We have never had to pay for other events that haven't been billed as "fundraisers," so this kind of threw me for a loop.

posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:55 AM on August 13, 2013

absolutely not reasonable.
posted by redwaterman at 10:55 AM on August 13, 2013

With this new information, I wouldn't be too mad at them. As long as they're willing to either pay for the tickets nor or reimburse.
posted by theichibun at 10:57 AM on August 13, 2013

It's nuts. You can quickly gauge whether you want to continue working there by telling them that you either want to pay and go as a guest or be paid and work at it.

If - if - you only part worked the event and got to enjoy some of it and if they discounted your ticket and if there was a reasonable expectation that their employees always wanted this arrangement it might make sense even if it were overly prescriptive.

But a full price ticket to work at something? Nope. It's basically making you, the employee part of the fundraising model (as opposed to the way scams normally work, to make the employee part of the profit model).

There is a golden rule about all job "scams" - you never, ever have to pay to get paid for a regular, salaried job. Your employers may or may not be doing this consciously given the information you've supplied - and I struggle to imagine the meeting in which someone thought it was a good idea to get employees to pay to work at an event - but it's still scam-like in what it requires of you.
posted by MuffinMan at 10:59 AM on August 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

The fact that it's a non-profit was mostly obvious (would a for-profit company have a fundraiser?), and the fact that it's small doesn't excuse anything. It's still your job. You get paid to work there, you don't pay to work there. If you want to donate back to your employer, fine, but you aren't *obligated* to donate to them via fundraiser tickets.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 11:00 AM on August 13, 2013 [8 favorites]

They may not be aware it's not legal, and then again they may not give a shit and consider their employees slave labor they are forced by law to "subsidize" on a regular basis. If you mention it, they may act all holier than thou about being a non-profit, as if they expect you to give up your time as well as your money. AKA being loyal to the cause.

I'd make like I was all gung-ho to attend and work without mentioning the pay, and then at the last minute get sick the day before feigning nausea and spending time in the bathroom. I figure they'd fire me if I didn't attend without some obvious excuse. But then I'm just cynical that way.
posted by BlueHorse at 11:01 AM on August 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

I've volunteered with non profits before where the perk of volunteering was a greatly decreased entrance fee to an event I could attend at least half of, but this is ridiculous.

I wouldn't do it, but I don't know your financial situation.
posted by haplesschild at 11:04 AM on August 13, 2013

This isn't in the least bit OK. As a musician and performer, I can be paid to perform, or I can volunteer my services for free to an organization that needs entertainment as part of a fundraiser or a special event; but if I volunteer, I should not have to pay at the door for the privilege of volunteering! That's insane.
posted by LN at 11:04 AM on August 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

I understand small non-profits are hard-up for cash, but making you pay to work is insane, unless you are paying for dinner or something as part of the ticket. In which case, I'd still think you'd be able to pay a discounted price because you're, you know, working the event for your job.
posted by AppleTurnover at 11:05 AM on August 13, 2013

No respectable organization would do this.

And very few reputable members of the community would care to be associated with a non-profit that would do this.

Find a way to let your board know what's going on and look for a new job, because they may not be able to pay you that much longer anyway.
posted by jamjam at 11:06 AM on August 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

It's not reasonable, but if it is established as the pre-existing standard practice, you might want to carefully weigh how firm a stance to take against it, as it will likely create a significant amount of workplace drama (maybe up to and including termination).
posted by Rock Steady at 11:17 AM on August 13, 2013

The ONLY situation where this might maybe be acceptable is if it's some kind of week long event where you're working 4 hours total, and the rest of the week you want to go to anyway. And it's a discounted event, or you get a special pass, or something.

Otherwise, no.
posted by Ashlyth at 11:23 AM on August 13, 2013 [4 favorites]

This is, at a minimum, unethical as all get out: they are requiring you to pay to work at this fundraiser?!? It sounds like they expect to have trouble legitimately selling all the tickets, and have come up with this possibly-illegal way of covering up how poorly-attended the event actually was.

One way to define if this kind of thing is a scam: when you pay for a ticket, is a seat reserved for you exactly the same as any other paying attendee, or are they basically going to sell that seat twice --- once to you, and again (since you'll be running around working the event) to someone else who will actually be using that seat?

I don't care how 'fantastic' this job is: find another job and get out now.
posted by easily confused at 11:23 AM on August 13, 2013 [5 favorites]

"I understand we're a small organization, and I love the work we do, so I want to make sure that we don't run afoul of any labor laws or anything that could damage our reputation or put us at risk. My understanding of employment law in [State] is that all activities done on behalf of the organization, including staffing an evening event, are considered work and must be paid at a person's normal wages."

Legally speaking, if you are hourly, they must pay you your normal hourly wage to work at this event. It would be kind of you to mention to them that you need to be approved for any overtime that the event might cause you to work, since they'll be on the hook for that, too. Hourly employees basically cannot volunteer to work for their employer for any amount of time, it's all work if they're working. (Salaried employees are a little different, they can be asked to work any hours whenever, it's just part of their job to work until the work is done.)

If you are willing to talk to your boss, frame this as a risk management issue, not a fairness issue.
posted by juniperesque at 11:26 AM on August 13, 2013 [3 favorites]

I am not sure about the US or elsewhere, but in Canada, the CRA guidelines defining a "charitable gift" are pretty clear: no one can be forced/required to make a gift. It HAS to be voluntary in order to be eligible for a tax receipt. If you are in Canada, and you get a receipt for any portion of your ticket price, than this scheme is illegal... besides douche-y.
posted by elkerette at 11:28 AM on August 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

This is totally unacceptable and seriously unfair to you (and the other employees). Have any of your co-workers brought up the insanity of this? I would definitely be looking for a new job simply because them even feeling this set up is acceptable is huge sign that they are thinking about their employee's wellbeing DEAD LAST.

Depending on what your boss is like, I would consider going to them expressing enthusiasm for the event, and how you're happy to donate your time, but you won't be able to also donate your money to the cause.

I'm also extremely curious over how much said event ticket is supposed to be costing you.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 11:32 AM on August 13, 2013

If you are a volunteer for this organization, and they need helpers to work at the event, and they are so hard up for cash that they require you to buy a ticket for the event as well, then this is just a poor organization with poor professional skills. Obviously, the smart thing to do is just buy a ticket to the event and not volunteer for it! But do what you like-- if it is important enough for you to help out, then do that.

If you are actually an employee of this organization and being required to buy a ticket as part of your job, this is unethical, possibly illegal, and DEFINITELY a red flag sign of a dysfunctional non profit that you want to leave ASAP. An organization that requires you to pay them for the privilege of working there is an organization that will screw you over in other ways sometime down the road.
posted by deanc at 11:35 AM on August 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

No, it is not reasonable at all. Years ago I was a volunteer docent at a non-profit architectural landmark that was planning a benefit fundraiser. The docents were all asked to come help out for the evening, basically just standing around to answer questions and keep guests from wandering off into restricted parts of the house. It sounded like a pleasant enough way to pass an evening, so I said "I can probably do it." The response was "Great! Tickets are $50, you can pay now or bring it with you that night," and that was the end of that for me. I didn't help out at the fundraiser, and I quit volunteering there altogether.

It's easier to walk away from a volunteer position than a paid one, but if an employer tried to pull that on me I would definiteley be looking for another job.

(On preview, everything that deanmc said.)
posted by usonian at 11:39 AM on August 13, 2013 [1 favorite]

Donating to a non-profit is a form of charity. Working for a non-profit is not. You are a professional, and you should expect to be treated like one, and you aren't being treated like one. Whether you want to continue working for an organization that doesn't treat its employees like professionals but treats them like people who should be honored to perform for them the charity of working there is a decision you need to think about.
posted by deanc at 11:40 AM on August 13, 2013

Fundraisers are often pretty expensive events for non-profits, and oftentimes the real fundraising is not from the dinner but from raffles or other fundraisers at the dinner. That said, this was a reason they couldn't give away tickets except to those who would donate freely, not a reason given for requiring employees to either buy a ticket or attend and work. Those I've known who have attended because of work were salaried, and thus not given overtime, but they did not have to pay for their ticket. Spouse's ticket? Yes. Theirs? No.

Just be aware that when you bring this up they may be dismayed because they can't "afford" your tickets. Even though, of course, it's a burden on you, too, and possibly illegal.
posted by ldthomps at 11:43 AM on August 13, 2013

: "I just found out that in addition to being required to work at my organization's fundraiser, employees also must pay the full ticket price to do so. In previous jobs, the situation has always been that you either work at the event and don't have to pay, or if you are not required to be there but think it's a cool event, you can pay to attend."

You are correct, this is the typical (and ethical) practice.

However, members of the Board of Directors would commonly be expected to attend the event to represent the leadership and make a charitable contribution.

Perhaps someone among the higher-ups is not recognizing the very legitimate difference between having paid employees "volunteer" to work the event and volunteer leadership both pay and "work" the event.
posted by desuetude at 11:53 AM on August 13, 2013 [2 favorites]

It is horribly, insanely unreasonable.

That said, I sincerely doubt there's anything you can do about it unless you're in a high management position.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:23 PM on August 13, 2013

I can't speak to the legality of this, but I can tell you that it's a rising trend in the nonprofit world.

Organizations have become so strapped for cash that they've started putting pressure on their employees to give. Many organizations also want to be able to tell outside donors that 100% of the staff and board contribute financially. Here's just one example of a major nonprofit consultancy encouraging NPOS to view employees as prospects.

I think these kinds of things are outrageous, especially considering that we nonprofit employees are almost always working for lower wages than we could be somewhere else. In my mind that's a donation of its own. I wouldn't buy a ticket to the event and I would tell them basically what Etrigan said: "I'll make a donation or work the event, but it won't be possible for me to do both. Please let me know what you prefer."
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 12:54 PM on August 13, 2013 [3 favorites]

I worked for a non-profit with twenty employees. We were paid for our time at the two fundraising events each year - both the one we worked the entire time and the one where part of the time we were working and part of the time we were sitting at the tables eating/drinking and listening to speeches. We did not purchase tickets to either event. Our space at the table for the second one was donated by donors each year. The event was in our honor.

I currently work for a non-profit with two employees and at our first fundraising gala, we worked the entire time. Due to a complicated relationship with the local government (we are nominally employees of theirs), we could not be paid for this time; we chose to volunteer because of this. This was not required but it was totally necessary. We were also only allowed to volunteer at the event because the work we did for the fundraiser differed from out union-described duties.

I would not have been able to afford the ticket price to any of these fundraisers. I would have found it unpardonable if I were asked to pay the ticket price to these fundraisers.

The first non-profit I mentioned, when I tried to volunteer my time after the position ended, refused to let me due to the labor laws mentioned above by kalessin.
posted by sciencegeek at 1:05 PM on August 13, 2013

This is unquestionably illegal, in the US.
posted by cairdeas at 1:15 PM on August 13, 2013

Dude, someone in the top management of your organisation has links to the recipients of the fundraising. Like, say, the brother of the director owns the charity?
posted by contentedweb at 4:10 PM on August 13, 2013

Don't let the fact that it's a small nonprofit get in the way of the fact that this is totally illegal and definitely unreasonable. Talk in private to whomever is asking you to do this and let them know it is not kosher. Your doing this now could save them from some serious audit issues in the future.
posted by Miko at 8:45 PM on August 13, 2013 [3 favorites]

I gave time-off in lieu for the overtime my staff put in working at evening/weekend fundraisers as well. It never even occurred to me to ask them to pay for tickets. Ditto for volunteers assisting, and we went out of our way to make sure they had time to actually eat. We have had donors sponsor the cost of the table that our volunteers took up, so we weren't out of the cost. I did give extras to tickets they bought for their friends and relatives, basically shifting them to better seats.

I would be upset if a staff member spoke to a fundraising partner if they hadn't tried to talk to me first - it would make me feel like I couldn't rely on their discretion about donors. But I would also respond well to this being presented as a risk issue and best practices of other non-profits, not as a staff complaint.

This is really crazy of them. They're already not paying for overtime or giving in lieu time off, to ask you to pay the full cost - they're shooting themselves in the foot for future staff and volunteers, not just you. If you like your boss, you're helping them avoid a short-term tiny funds increase that will cost them good people down the line.
posted by viggorlijah at 6:10 AM on August 14, 2013 [1 favorite]