Comments on: it's commentary! it's a film! it's a meta-film!

Question: it's commentary! it's a film! it's a meta-film!

Tuwa — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:31:21 -0800

I'm looking for films about whatever they're about that are also about their own making. Fiction is preferred over documentary--this approach in documentary tends to strike me as more often lazy than profound--but skillful documentaries are welcome too. [examples inside, including spoilers]

On watching Man with a Movie Camera again recently, I've become fascinated with films that tell two stories, one of them at least in part about the film's making--it seems an easy way to work in commentary about the power of film and to comment about story-telling itself. Examples include Persona, which reminds you constantly that it's a film, and The Player and Adaptation, which both use the "meta" aspect as a wicked subplot/twist revealed near the end.

In my opinion Ross McElwee can sometimes pull it off in his documentaries (I think he does in Six O'Clock News and Time Indefinite, but for some reason it rankles me in Sherman's March). I like what Varda does with it in her Gleaners films (including others' criticisms of her own choices as a film maker).

Examples where I think it doesn't add much to the story include Beyond the Mat and I Remember Me; for the most part, I think documentary filmmakers seem to fall back on this "making-of" plot once their main plot lags, so it strikes me as a kludge more than a brilliant hack. (Though Blair Witch got a clever gimmick out of it.)

What other examples can you think of? Spoilers are fine; I'm more interested in seeing what the filmmakers do with the "meta" aspect.

By: phearlez

phearlez — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:35:42 -0800

I don't have any concrete examples for you, but the issue of documentaries and documentariand that do or do not insert themselves into the product have been the subject of discussion on the last few Cinecast podcasts including a few names which I am simply not recalling. You might want to listen to the last 3-4 shows and check out their message boards.

By: Brian James

Brian James — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:36:52 -0800

Adaptation is an obvious, modern example.

By: web-goddess

web-goddess — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:37:31 -0800

Living in Oblivion is one of my favorites and the first one that sprang to mind. The "meta" aspect isn't, like, a surprise or anything though; the movie is all about the problems making an independent film. It's hilarious though.

By: basicchannel

basicchannel — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:38:17 -0800

Incident At Loch Ness.

By: MsMolly

MsMolly — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:39:04 -0800

Millenium Actress is a neat anime example. The description from the IMDB:

"A movie studio is being torn down. TV interviewer Genya Tachibana has tracked down its most famous star, Chiyoko Fujiwara, who has been a recluse since she left acting some 30 years ago. Tachibana delivers a key to her, and it causes her to reflect on her career; as she's telling the story, Tachibana and his long-suffering cameraman are drawn in. The key was given to her as a teenager by a painter and revolutionary that she helped to escape the police. She becomes an actress because it will make it possible to track him down, and she spends the next several decades acting out that search in various genres and eras."

There are some really cool scenes where the director and cameraman to whom she is narrating the story appear as if they were part of it. Sorry, this isn't a great description, but I think it fits what's you're looking for.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:39:18 -0800

Fellini's Roma. It's been too long since I've seen it, so I don't have anything profound to say about it, but it mixes fiction and "making of" reasonably interestingly, though there's not much of a traditional plot.

There is, however, an ecclesiastic fashion show on roller skates, so I'm convinced that it covers all the bases.

By: Mr T

Mr T — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:41:18 -0800

Lost in La Mancha is pretty interesting. It is a documentary about a film never finished. A very weird film.

By: Khalad

Khalad — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:41:19 -0800

Not exactly what you're looking for, but Day for Night is a film by François Truffaut about the making of a fictional movie Je vous presente Pamela. The actor playing the director of this fictional movie? François Truffaut. You could easily see how Day for Night could be about its own making.

By: johngoren

johngoren — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:44:05 -0800

Get Shorty!

By: fionab

fionab — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:44:27 -0800

Not a film, but: read Jill Godmilow's "Kill the Documentary as We Know It" for what she calls the "self-reflexive second track" and her reasons why this is necessary for both fiction and non-fiction films.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:45:19 -0800

This is going to sound weird, but there's also In the Jaws of Life, which I may not have actually seen. We read the novella for a Lit & Film course, then watched *some* movie that was related to it, but I'm not sure if it was *this* film.

In any event, the novella is a wonderful example of the literary equivalent of what you're talking about, and it looks like the film is arranged around the same "meta" idea.

And is in Serbo-Croatian, which might be a plus. Sigh. I've hit my quota for pretentious film recommendations for the day...

By: knave

knave — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:46:55 -0800

The Muppet Movie

By: skylar

skylar — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:47:11 -0800

Strange example, perhaps, but The Muppet Movie is a film about the making of a film. Throughout the plot there are self-referential moments such as when Kermit and Fozzie stop to consult the screenplay when they arrive at Dr Teeth and the Electric Mayhem's church.

20 Dates is a truly abominable 'comedy' film which puports to be about the making of a movie concerning itself with a man who wants to go on 20 dates. Much of the business is set around the film producer, investment and so on. But it is no more a genuine documentary than it is genuinely funny.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:48:18 -0800

Oh, no, wait, one more for the post-modernists: Derrida, which is a documentary. The filmmakers do things like showing him and his wife watching video that they've shot (and which the audience has already seen) to get his reaction to the film within the context of the film. There's also a great moment where they're filming him walking across a busy street, and the cameraperson trips, and Derrida reaches out toward the camera to steady him or her -- it's a jarring "Oh, I'm watching someone being *filmed*" moment for the viewer.

By: jessenoonan

jessenoonan — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:48:19 -0800

One of my favorite movies, Targets. Boris Karloff plays an aging horror actor, Peter Bogdanovich is the young director trying to coax him into making one more movie, as a young man goes on an initially-unrelated Charles-Whitman-esque killing spree.

By: SAC

SAC — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:53:47 -0800

Does Badasssss count?
It's not a documentary, but the movie follows Melvin Van Peebles's making of Sweet Sweetback's Badassss Song.

By: spinifex23

spinifex23 — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:54:01 -0800

Speaking Parts, by Atom Egoyan.

About a struggling actor/hotel custodian/male prostitute being cast in his first speaking role in a movie. Creepiness ensues. It's one of my favourite films.

By: SAC

SAC — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:55:13 -0800

There's always the home video scene in Spaceballs.

By: starman

starman — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:57:04 -0800

Ahhh... maybe Soderbergh's "Full Frontal"?

By: Hildago

Hildago — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:57:15 -0800

Man Bites Dog. French film released by Criterion with this title. The conceit is that a documentary film crew is following this serial killer around, making a film about him, and they get progressively less detached and more involved with their subject. I think it's just the sort of movie you're asking for.

By: jessenoonan

jessenoonan — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:58:29 -0800

What I shohuld have said a minute ago:

Actually, the most "meta" thing about Targets is that it incorporates footage of Karloff (and Jack Nicholson) in The Terror. In the film, this is the film that Bogdanovich's and Karloff's characters have just finished. In real life, producer Roger Corman's stipulated that Corman use stock footage from The Terror in this film.

In real real life, I am too tired to make sense in describing it.

By: goodnewsfortheinsane

goodnewsfortheinsane — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:06:34 -0800

Lost in La Mancha seconded, as well as Adaptation, even if that is a (fiction) feature film in the end.

Which leaves me with only "Crazy Like They Are" to suggest; I saw it at IDFA last year, and can honestly report that it is one of the worst films I have ever, ever seen. And I say this not only as a documentary enthusiast, but also as someone who's not easily disappointed. In fact, I would never recommend this film to anyone for any other set of reasons than the exact one detailed in your question.

Which makes it all the more interesting as a research object, I guess. Check it out, if you can find it.

By: dobbs

dobbs — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:11:28 -0800

David Holzman's Diary is a masterpiece. Track it down.

Lars von Trier's Epidemic.

Sullivan's Travels very loosely fits your parameters as does Michael Haneke's Funny Games.

All that Jazz doesn't fit your criteria but I'd watch it anyway as it's very interesting. At one point it features Roy Scheider playing Bob Fosse (known as Joe Gideon in the film) editing a film in which Cliff Gorman is playing Dustin Hoffman (known as Davis Newman in the film) who's playing Lenny Bruce.

... And God Spoke

producer Roger Corman's stipulated that Corman use stock footage from The Terror in this film.

This is not the reason the footage is in the film. The reason the footage is in the film (and Karloff is in Targets) is because Corman had Karloff under contract for X days but had finished the film early. Since he had paid Karloff anyway, he told Bogdonavich that he had to use him in Targets.

By: dobbs

dobbs — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:12:44 -0800

Oops. My formatting makes things unclear. ... And God Spoke is a film that fits your criteria. The following quote/paragraph is unrelated.

By: Gortuk

Gortuk — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:13:46 -0800

Lars Von Trier's "The Five Obstructions" is a documentary about a filmmaker (Jørgen Leth) remaking a short film 5 times in 5 very different ways. A great look at two very creative filmmakers...

By: dobbs

dobbs — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:13:50 -0800

Oh, and Tuwa, Time Indefinite is terrific. One of my favorite films ever.

By: hilker

hilker — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:13:53 -0800

American Splendor?

By: essexjan

essexjan — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:15:29 -0800

In "The French Lieutenant's Woman" a film is being made of a story, set in 19th century England, about Charles, a biologist who's engaged to be married, but who falls in love with outcast Sarah, whose melancholy makes her leave him after a short, but passionate affair.

Anna and Mike, who play the characters of Sarah and Charles, go, during the shooting of the film, through a relationship that runs parallel to that of their characters.

By: Sonny Jim

Sonny Jim — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:15:36 -0800

8 1/2, obviously. Hal Hartley's Flirt. Less obviously, Drop Dead Gorgeous (which kind of parodies the whole self-aware meta-documentary genre).

By: MsMolly

MsMolly — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:16:35 -0800

Shadow of the Vampire

By: shepd

shepd — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:17:28 -0800

Delirious, perhaps?

By: 4easypayments

4easypayments — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:23:01 -0800

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:33:32 -0800

A Moment of Innocence. Spectacular film. I'm surprised it isn't better-known.

It's about the director making a film about an event in his youth: he stabbed a police officer in the unrest leading up to the Iranian revolution. He finds the police officer, befriends him, and the two cast the film together. There's an incredible moment when it switches seamlessly, almost dreamlike, from a making-of documentary to the movie itself: the actors simply, suddenly, go into character. So effortless and elegant. As the movie proceeds, the filmakers (the director and the cop) cannot make it conform to the reality they remember: the youthful optimism of the actors overcomes them. The ending is brilliant; the film concludes with an enormously powerful freeze-frame. You should see it.

By: neilkod

neilkod — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:36:37 -0800

How about The Life Aquatic and Blazing Saddles?

By: Robot Johnny

Robot Johnny — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:38:18 -0800

Michael Winterbottom's latest film Tristram Shandy: A Cock and Bull Story is exactly this. I caught it at this year's Toronto International Film Festival, and it might be my favourite of the 20 or so films I saw. It's also hilarious.

The film is about the making of the film, but it is also the film itself. Imagine watching a period drama in which the main character occasionally speaks to the camera or the audience becomes privy to the casting process... it's all quite meta, post-modern, and bizarre. I loved it.

By: Tuwa

Tuwa — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:43:01 -0800

mr_roboto, you've just reminded me of a film I saw some time ago that very effortlessly switches from being a fiction film to being a film about its own frustrated making, when the young star actress orders the bus driver to stop and then gets off and goes home. Also an Iranian film. Can't for the life of me remember the title of it. Very clever work, though.

By: springload

springload — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:50:59 -0800

This is spinal tap
The Office (TV)
Reality bites
Epidemic

The last one (by von Trier) is a good example of what you're looking for. The script for a film is lost on a floppy, and the writers try to convey the spirit of the film to the financers through emotional acting. In the meantime, the film without a script (about an epidemy) is enacted around them. The limit between the film to be produced and the plot about the scriptwriters gets unclear.

On preview: As Dobbs already said.

By: marxchivist

marxchivist — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:52:08 -0800

How about Peter Watkins' Punishment Park? It's been years since I've seen it, but it is a fake documentary, and they acknowledge the "real" events are being filmed. At one point the film crew gets taken hostage. I hate to sound like an English major, but Watkins' films can be enjoyed on many levels.

I just saw this film will be coming out on DVD in the US and UK in November.

By: kableh

kableh — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:53:04 -0800

American Movie is ostensibly a documentary, and quite funny.

By: cloeburner

cloeburner — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:53:10 -0800

Two films featuring Maggie Cheung:

Center Stage, which is about a Chinese actress from the 1930's, cuts from the (very good) story of the actress' life to interviews with Cheung and other members of the cast about making the film.

Irma Vep, which is a fictional film about making a film starring Cheung. It also features Jean-Pierre Léaud of Truffaut fame as the director of the film-within-the-film. It's pretty awesome.

By: Mr T

Mr T — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:11:23 -0800

I can't personally recomend it but another movie about making a movie is The Stunt Man. It's got a bit of a cult following. I thought it was corny. Probably just a reflection of my thoughts regarding that era (it came out in 1980).

By: trip and a half

trip and a half — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:43:41 -0800

The Icicle Theif ("Ladri di saponette")

By: macadamiaranch

macadamiaranch — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:00:59 -0800

Blair Witch Project.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:30:31 -0800

American Splendor?

Yeah, that's what I was going to suggest.

By: jeremias

jeremias — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:43:31 -0800

I will second dobbs recommendation of David Holzman's Diary (1968).

Rent this film.

By: xueexueg

xueexueg — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:24:16 -0800

Blue Vinyl is a documentary with a skillful execution of this, IMO. Judith Helfand is trying to convince her parents not to replace the wood siding on their house with vinyl; the film is about the process she goes through, soliciting experts, industry people, etc. She stays on topic; I consider the meta-stuff skillful because it says a lot about family relationships, the difficulty of convincing the "average person" of any environmental argument, and the way industry spin people can completely stonewall you no matter how much you prepare for your interview with them.

By: mwhybark

mwhybark — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:54:21 -0800

Buster Keaton's The Cameraman, intended at least in part as a kind of "answer film" to Man with a Movie Camera.

By: zanni

zanni — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:55:18 -0800

The Wizard of Speed and Time is an obscure, somewhat cheesy but wonderful example. Very meta. An independent animator wants to turn his award-winning short into a feature. Everyone tells him it can't be done. He ends up making a fictionalized narrative about making the feature, including an obligatory Chase Scene, Bedroom Scene, etc. Even the Evil Producer who screws him out of his end (in real life) is a character in the film.

Also, second Man Bites Dog and Adaptation. I loved The Stunt Man, but I don't think it qualifies (it's a moving about making a movie, the itself).

By: kyleg

kyleg — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:05:08 -0800

Mel Brooks's Silent Movie is a comedy about director Mel Funn (Brooks, of course) trying to make a silent film in contemporary (1976) Hollywood. And it's silent. Unfortunately not on DVD, but worth watching.

By: devilsbrigade

devilsbrigade — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:19:51 -0800

Bob Roberts, kind of. Its semi about the filming of a fictional documentary.

By: growabrain

growabrain — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:24:22 -0800

More about metafilms

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:40:27 -0800

Orson Welles' F for Fake. Recently released on a Criterion DVD and perhaps my favorite of all his movies. Sort of a documentary, sort of not.

By: RoseovSharon

RoseovSharon — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:43:59 -0800

How about Series 7? It's a pretend reality tv show with not many rules that goes all out of control. It's very funny and very violent.

I would also like to second the nominations for:
Incident at Loch Ness (excellent, especially if you already like Werner Herzog)
and
Man Bites Dog (also great!)

By: Wolof

Wolof — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:49:22 -0800

Fellini's Eight and a Half really does own this subgenre. I believe the Iranian film referenced upthread is Kiarostami's The Taste of Cherry.

By: Wolof

Wolof — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:45:36 -0800

(Oops, it isn't, but the Kiarostami will fit the criteria nicely.)

By: Tuwa

Tuwa — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:53:21 -0800

Taste of Cherry fits; you're right. It's another that I'd seen and forgotten about in writing the question (along with Stunt Man and American Splendor).

... After quite a bit of looking I found the film I was thinking of: The Mirror, by Jafar Panahi.

Such a lot of films here--it's wonderful but also makes me wonder if someone hasn't written a thesis about meta-film (and how I'd go about finding it if so).

By: Wolof

Wolof — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:45:34 -0800

"Showing the apparatus" («montrer l'appareil») was regarded as pretty much the fine flower of materialism in the sixties, so I'd be astonished if a thesis on metafilm didn't exist. Sorry I can't point you at anything specific.

Godard and Gorin's Dziga Vertov films would also (unsurprisingly) fit the bill.

By: Wolof

Wolof — Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:17:41 -0800

Er, for "appareil" read "dispositif". Thick as pigshit today.

By: Tuwa

Tuwa — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:14:31 -0800

Thanks to everyone who made suggestions, and to Wolof for the new search term, and to growabrain for the link (it looks like an interesting program there, and I could have remembered The Mirror much sooner if I'd gone to the page straight off--they talk about it a bit).

By: mzurer

mzurer — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:04:10 -0800

"The True Meaning of Pictures" fits the bill exactly. Really fascinating. Available on NetFlix.

By: Four Flavors

Four Flavors — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:43:43 -0800

There's Fubar, which is a mocumentry where the 'documentor' becomes more and more important as the film goes on.

By: soiled cowboy

soiled cowboy — Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:25:48 -0800

Released on DVD until next month, Paradise Lost is the devastating HBO documentary about the West Memphis Three.

It includes an almost surreal meta-moment in which the documentarians are sucked into the very criminal trial which they are filming when a possible murder suspect presents a knife as a gift to the filmmakers. The filmmakers notice the presence of blood on the weapon, and, knowing that the murder weapon is missing, hand it over to the police. So while making a film about a murder trial, the filmmakers themselves end up testifying in the very trial they are filming.