French Relative Prounouns
August 10, 2013 8:26 PM Subscribe
I have used every google resource available and I still cannot understand French relative pronouns.
I am grammar illiterate, and it's not a matter of effort either, I have struggled with learning English grammar my entire life. While I can guess at certain things such as the Subject and the D.O. of a sentence....when things get even slightly complex or tricky I just fall apart and admit that I've been making guesses...
I can still make instinctual guesses at qui/que at about an 80-90% rate, but when I'm tested on all of the relative pronouns, i.e. qui/que/ce qui/dont/ce dont/THEquels/où/etc and prepositions join the mix, I fall to about a 10% guess rate.
I have been trying for three weeks to learn the grammar behind it and learn these words and their proper usage, and I have expended every resource on Google one can find.
I come to you a defeated man. With all this work I have only a very loose understanding of when and how to use qui and que (to a lesser extent Où and the Quels), and an even looser idea of when to use each as it is intended.
Any help is greatly appreciated...
I am grammar illiterate, and it's not a matter of effort either, I have struggled with learning English grammar my entire life. While I can guess at certain things such as the Subject and the D.O. of a sentence....when things get even slightly complex or tricky I just fall apart and admit that I've been making guesses...
I can still make instinctual guesses at qui/que at about an 80-90% rate, but when I'm tested on all of the relative pronouns, i.e. qui/que/ce qui/dont/ce dont/THEquels/où/etc and prepositions join the mix, I fall to about a 10% guess rate.
I have been trying for three weeks to learn the grammar behind it and learn these words and their proper usage, and I have expended every resource on Google one can find.
I come to you a defeated man. With all this work I have only a very loose understanding of when and how to use qui and que (to a lesser extent Où and the Quels), and an even looser idea of when to use each as it is intended.
Any help is greatly appreciated...
Best answer: These can be quite tricky, but I disagree, on preview, that there is no logic or reason to them. You may end up having to brute-force it in the end, but compared to other aspects of learning French (aka, the spelling), relative pronouns actually follow a set of rules with very few exceptions.
If you're not sure about which pronoun to use, I find it is most helpful to "unpack" the sentence into two sentences. Hopefully this is clear, let me know if you have any questions!
I. qui vs que : generally, English "that"
1. Voici le livre [PRON] j'ai lu.
2. Voici le livre [PRON] décrit la géographie de Montréal.
3. Voici le livre [PRON] m'a donné mon prof.
In English, you would use "that", or maybe "which," for these. So you know it's a qui vs. que situation (with some exceptions, see below). But which one is it? The key is to "unpack" the sentence into two component sentences, and see what role the antecedent (aka, a fancy way of saying the word to which the relative pronoun is referring -- in this case, le livre) plays. Easier with examples:
1. Voici le livre. J'ai lu le livre. --> Voici le livre QUE j'ai lu.
Here, le livre is the OBJECT of the second clause. I am reading the book, the book is not reading me. When the antecedent is the direct object of the subordinate clause (err, sorry), as in this situation, use QUE.
2. Voici le livre. Le livre décrit la géographie de Montréal. --> Voici le livre QUI décrit la géographie de Montréal.
Here, le livre is the SUBJECT of the second clause. The book is describing the geography of Montreal, the geography of Montreal is not describing the book. In this case, the antecedent is the subject of the subordinate clause, so we use QUI.
In general, if the clause following the relative pronoun begins with a verb, I'd say 80-90% of the time you use QUI. If the clause following the relative pronoun begins with a noun/pronoun, 80-90% of the time it is QUE. However, see case 3 for an exception.
3. Voici le livre. Mon prof m'a donné le livre. --> Voici le livre QUE m'a donné mon prof.
If we used that rule of thumb above, you might guess that we should use QUI here. The second clause begins with a verb, so we think probably QUI. However, if we unpack the sentence, what role is the book playing?:
- Subject? "Here is the book. The book gave me my professor." Err, this doesn't seem to be the intended meaning of the sentence.
- Object? "Here is the book. My professor gave me the book." Bingo!
Therefore, we use QUE here. I'm pointing out this case because this is unnatural word order for English-speakers -- we would never say, "here is the book that gave me my professor." In my experience, it's a construction not infrequently used in French (and even more in Spanish), so it's worth noting.
II. dont and the lequel pronouns: generally English "that" when French has a construction that uses de, à, or some other preposition
4. Voici le livre [PRON] il a parlé.
5. Voici le livre [PRON] je m'intéresse.
6. Voici le prof [PRON] il a téléphoné
7. Voici le livre près [PRON] j'ai mis mon stylo.
Let's unpack these sentences.
4. Voici le livre. Il a parlé du livre. --> Voici le livre DONT il a parlé.
So, what role is le livre playing in the second clause? It's the object (he is talking about the book, the book is not talking about him.) So your first instinct might be aha! we need to use QUE. However, the key here is to look at the verb construction vs. in case 1:
In case 1: J'ai lu le livre. LIRE is the verb here, and there is not another preposition here. AKA, it's not j'ai lu du livre or j'ai lu au livre. Just a verb, and an object.
In case 4: the sentence is il a parlé DU livre. The verb construction here is PARLER DE. *Whenever you have a verb construction that is VERB + DE, you must use DONT as your relative pronoun.
These set of cases are what I was referring to when I said that "that" or "which" generally means QUI or QUE. In English, you'd say something colloquially like "Here's the book that I talked about," which in "formal" English would be "Here's the book about which I talked." But in French, only one construction (analogous to the "formal") is OK, because there is a DE in play here.
5. Voici le livre. Je m'intéresse au livre. --> Voici le livre AUQUEL je m'intéresse.
Similarly, here the verb construction is S'INTÉRESSER À. When you have a verb construction that is VERB + À, you must use a form of À + LEQUEL as your relative pronoun, depending on the gender and plurality of the noun:
Voici le livre AUQUEL je m'intéresse.
Voici la chaise À LAQUELLE je m'intéresse.
Voici les livres AUXQUELS je m'intéresse.
Voici les chaises AUXQUELLES je m'intéresse.
6. Voici le prof. J'ai téléphoné au prof. --> Voici le prof À QUI j'ai téléphoné.
So, you would think that this would be identical to case 5. The verb here is TÉLÉPHONER À, so it's a VERB + À construction, so aha! we think it must be Voici le prof auquel j'ai téléphoné.. However, because le prof refers to a person, not an inanimate object, we must use À QUI and not a form of À + LEQUEL. Remember: person vs inanimate object.
7. Voici le livre. J'ai mis mon stylo près du livre. --> Voici le livre près DUQUEL j'ai mis mon stylo.
This appears to be superficially similar to case 4. There is a DE floating around, so you might think that the sentence should be Voici le livre près dont j'ai mis mon stylo. However, let's look at it more closely:
case 4: it's a VERB + DE construction: PARLER DE
case 7: it's a PREPOSITION + DE construction: PRÈS DE
That's the difference. In a VERB + DE, we use DONT. In a PREPOSITION + DE, you use a form of DE + LEQUEL, which is what case 7 is.
So if we had a sentence, say J'ai trouvé la chaise à côté [PRON] je suis tombé, the correct answer would be J'ai trouvé la chaise à côté DE LAQUELLE je suis tombé.. The construction here is PREPOSITION + DE ("à côté + de") so you use a form of DE + LEQUEL.
III. ce qui, ce que, ce dont, quoi: "that which" and etc.
I freely admit that these can be very confusing. The key here is that you use CE QUI vs QUI, CE QUE vs QUE, and CE DONT vs DONT, when the antecedent is indefinite. Let's take a look:
8. Tu as [PRON] je veux.
9. Tu as le gateau [PRON] je veux.
Unpacking these two, we see that there is a clear difference.
8. Tu as [SOMETHING]. Je veux [SOMETHING]. --> Tu as CE QUE je veux.
9. Tu as le gateau. Je veux le gateau. --> Tu as le gateau QUE je veux.
You can see that in sentence 8, there's nothing specific that I am talking about. When I try to unpack the sentence, I am forced to insert a SOMETHING. Whereas in sentence 9, I'm talking about le gateau (and le gateau is the object, so we use QUE instead of QUI, and there's no DE or À in play, so no DONT or DUQUEL either).
In some ways, you can see that 8 and 9 are parallel. They are exactly the same, except that CE QUE is replaced by LE GATEAU QUE in sentence 9. As a rule of thumb, you should never have a noun + CE QUE (or CE QUI, or CE DONT), because CE is essentially taking the role of the noun. So:
Tu as mangé le sandwich ce que j'ai acheté. is wrong. If we unpack it:
Tu as mangé le sandwich. J'ai acheté le sandwich. We can see that the noun in common, the antecedent, is le sandwich. No need for a CE QUE, because the CE is referring to le sandwich.
On the other hand:
Tu as mangé ce que j'ai acheté. is broken down into:
Tu as mangé [SOMETHING]. J'ai acheté [SOMETHING]. --> Tu as mangé ce que j'ai acheté is now correct.
10. Tu as [PRON] est délicieux.
11. Tu as le gateau [PRON] est délicieux.
Unpacking:
10. Tu as oublié [SOMETHING]. [SOMETHING] est délicieux --> Tu as oublié CE QUI est délicieux.
11. Tu as oublié le gateau. Le gateau est délicieux. --> Tu as oublié le gateau QUI est délicieux.
In this case, the [SOMETHING] or le gateau is the subject of the second clause, so we use QUI. When there is a SOMETHING, aka it is indefinite, we use CE QUI. When there is a specific antecedent (le gateau) we just use QUI.
And finally (because I'm getting tired of typing now!):
12. Tu as oublié [PRON] j'ai parlé.
13. Tu as oublié le livre [PRON] j'ai parlé
14. Tu as oublié [PRON] j'ai pensé.
15. Tu as oublié le livre [PRON] j'ai pensé.
Unpacking:
12. Tu as oublié SOMETHING. J'ai parlé de SOMETHING. --> Tu as oublié CE DONT j'ai parlé.
SOMETHING is the object, and it's a VERB + DE construction. That tells you it's a DONT (see case 4 if you need a refresher!) but because it's indefinite, we use CE DONT.
13. Tu as oublié le livre. J'ai parlé du livre. --> Tu as oublié le livre DONT j'ai parlé.
Similar to case 4.
14. Tu as oublié SOMETHING. J'ai pensé à SOMETHING. --> Tu as oublié À QUOI j'ai pensé.
SOMETHING is the object, and it's a VERB + À construction. When we have an indefinite antecedent (a SOMETHING), and a VERB + ANY OTHER PREPOSITION EXCEPT DE, which is what we have here, we use QUOI.
15. Tu as oublié le livre. J'ai pensé au livre. --> Tu as oublié le livre AUQUEL j'ai pensé.
Similar to case 5.
posted by andrewesque at 9:42 PM on August 10, 2013 [66 favorites]
If you're not sure about which pronoun to use, I find it is most helpful to "unpack" the sentence into two sentences. Hopefully this is clear, let me know if you have any questions!
I. qui vs que : generally, English "that"
1. Voici le livre [PRON] j'ai lu.
2. Voici le livre [PRON] décrit la géographie de Montréal.
3. Voici le livre [PRON] m'a donné mon prof.
In English, you would use "that", or maybe "which," for these. So you know it's a qui vs. que situation (with some exceptions, see below). But which one is it? The key is to "unpack" the sentence into two component sentences, and see what role the antecedent (aka, a fancy way of saying the word to which the relative pronoun is referring -- in this case, le livre) plays. Easier with examples:
1. Voici le livre. J'ai lu le livre. --> Voici le livre QUE j'ai lu.
Here, le livre is the OBJECT of the second clause. I am reading the book, the book is not reading me. When the antecedent is the direct object of the subordinate clause (err, sorry), as in this situation, use QUE.
2. Voici le livre. Le livre décrit la géographie de Montréal. --> Voici le livre QUI décrit la géographie de Montréal.
Here, le livre is the SUBJECT of the second clause. The book is describing the geography of Montreal, the geography of Montreal is not describing the book. In this case, the antecedent is the subject of the subordinate clause, so we use QUI.
In general, if the clause following the relative pronoun begins with a verb, I'd say 80-90% of the time you use QUI. If the clause following the relative pronoun begins with a noun/pronoun, 80-90% of the time it is QUE. However, see case 3 for an exception.
3. Voici le livre. Mon prof m'a donné le livre. --> Voici le livre QUE m'a donné mon prof.
If we used that rule of thumb above, you might guess that we should use QUI here. The second clause begins with a verb, so we think probably QUI. However, if we unpack the sentence, what role is the book playing?:
- Subject? "Here is the book. The book gave me my professor." Err, this doesn't seem to be the intended meaning of the sentence.
- Object? "Here is the book. My professor gave me the book." Bingo!
Therefore, we use QUE here. I'm pointing out this case because this is unnatural word order for English-speakers -- we would never say, "here is the book that gave me my professor." In my experience, it's a construction not infrequently used in French (and even more in Spanish), so it's worth noting.
II. dont and the lequel pronouns: generally English "that" when French has a construction that uses de, à, or some other preposition
4. Voici le livre [PRON] il a parlé.
5. Voici le livre [PRON] je m'intéresse.
6. Voici le prof [PRON] il a téléphoné
7. Voici le livre près [PRON] j'ai mis mon stylo.
Let's unpack these sentences.
4. Voici le livre. Il a parlé du livre. --> Voici le livre DONT il a parlé.
So, what role is le livre playing in the second clause? It's the object (he is talking about the book, the book is not talking about him.) So your first instinct might be aha! we need to use QUE. However, the key here is to look at the verb construction vs. in case 1:
In case 1: J'ai lu le livre. LIRE is the verb here, and there is not another preposition here. AKA, it's not j'ai lu du livre or j'ai lu au livre. Just a verb, and an object.
In case 4: the sentence is il a parlé DU livre. The verb construction here is PARLER DE. *Whenever you have a verb construction that is VERB + DE, you must use DONT as your relative pronoun.
These set of cases are what I was referring to when I said that "that" or "which" generally means QUI or QUE. In English, you'd say something colloquially like "Here's the book that I talked about," which in "formal" English would be "Here's the book about which I talked." But in French, only one construction (analogous to the "formal") is OK, because there is a DE in play here.
5. Voici le livre. Je m'intéresse au livre. --> Voici le livre AUQUEL je m'intéresse.
Similarly, here the verb construction is S'INTÉRESSER À. When you have a verb construction that is VERB + À, you must use a form of À + LEQUEL as your relative pronoun, depending on the gender and plurality of the noun:
Voici le livre AUQUEL je m'intéresse.
Voici la chaise À LAQUELLE je m'intéresse.
Voici les livres AUXQUELS je m'intéresse.
Voici les chaises AUXQUELLES je m'intéresse.
6. Voici le prof. J'ai téléphoné au prof. --> Voici le prof À QUI j'ai téléphoné.
So, you would think that this would be identical to case 5. The verb here is TÉLÉPHONER À, so it's a VERB + À construction, so aha! we think it must be Voici le prof auquel j'ai téléphoné.. However, because le prof refers to a person, not an inanimate object, we must use À QUI and not a form of À + LEQUEL. Remember: person vs inanimate object.
7. Voici le livre. J'ai mis mon stylo près du livre. --> Voici le livre près DUQUEL j'ai mis mon stylo.
This appears to be superficially similar to case 4. There is a DE floating around, so you might think that the sentence should be Voici le livre près dont j'ai mis mon stylo. However, let's look at it more closely:
case 4: it's a VERB + DE construction: PARLER DE
case 7: it's a PREPOSITION + DE construction: PRÈS DE
That's the difference. In a VERB + DE, we use DONT. In a PREPOSITION + DE, you use a form of DE + LEQUEL, which is what case 7 is.
So if we had a sentence, say J'ai trouvé la chaise à côté [PRON] je suis tombé, the correct answer would be J'ai trouvé la chaise à côté DE LAQUELLE je suis tombé.. The construction here is PREPOSITION + DE ("à côté + de") so you use a form of DE + LEQUEL.
III. ce qui, ce que, ce dont, quoi: "that which" and etc.
I freely admit that these can be very confusing. The key here is that you use CE QUI vs QUI, CE QUE vs QUE, and CE DONT vs DONT, when the antecedent is indefinite. Let's take a look:
8. Tu as [PRON] je veux.
9. Tu as le gateau [PRON] je veux.
Unpacking these two, we see that there is a clear difference.
8. Tu as [SOMETHING]. Je veux [SOMETHING]. --> Tu as CE QUE je veux.
9. Tu as le gateau. Je veux le gateau. --> Tu as le gateau QUE je veux.
You can see that in sentence 8, there's nothing specific that I am talking about. When I try to unpack the sentence, I am forced to insert a SOMETHING. Whereas in sentence 9, I'm talking about le gateau (and le gateau is the object, so we use QUE instead of QUI, and there's no DE or À in play, so no DONT or DUQUEL either).
In some ways, you can see that 8 and 9 are parallel. They are exactly the same, except that CE QUE is replaced by LE GATEAU QUE in sentence 9. As a rule of thumb, you should never have a noun + CE QUE (or CE QUI, or CE DONT), because CE is essentially taking the role of the noun. So:
Tu as mangé le sandwich ce que j'ai acheté. is wrong. If we unpack it:
Tu as mangé le sandwich. J'ai acheté le sandwich. We can see that the noun in common, the antecedent, is le sandwich. No need for a CE QUE, because the CE is referring to le sandwich.
On the other hand:
Tu as mangé ce que j'ai acheté. is broken down into:
Tu as mangé [SOMETHING]. J'ai acheté [SOMETHING]. --> Tu as mangé ce que j'ai acheté is now correct.
10. Tu as [PRON] est délicieux.
11. Tu as le gateau [PRON] est délicieux.
Unpacking:
10. Tu as oublié [SOMETHING]. [SOMETHING] est délicieux --> Tu as oublié CE QUI est délicieux.
11. Tu as oublié le gateau. Le gateau est délicieux. --> Tu as oublié le gateau QUI est délicieux.
In this case, the [SOMETHING] or le gateau is the subject of the second clause, so we use QUI. When there is a SOMETHING, aka it is indefinite, we use CE QUI. When there is a specific antecedent (le gateau) we just use QUI.
And finally (because I'm getting tired of typing now!):
12. Tu as oublié [PRON] j'ai parlé.
13. Tu as oublié le livre [PRON] j'ai parlé
14. Tu as oublié [PRON] j'ai pensé.
15. Tu as oublié le livre [PRON] j'ai pensé.
Unpacking:
12. Tu as oublié SOMETHING. J'ai parlé de SOMETHING. --> Tu as oublié CE DONT j'ai parlé.
SOMETHING is the object, and it's a VERB + DE construction. That tells you it's a DONT (see case 4 if you need a refresher!) but because it's indefinite, we use CE DONT.
13. Tu as oublié le livre. J'ai parlé du livre. --> Tu as oublié le livre DONT j'ai parlé.
Similar to case 4.
14. Tu as oublié SOMETHING. J'ai pensé à SOMETHING. --> Tu as oublié À QUOI j'ai pensé.
SOMETHING is the object, and it's a VERB + À construction. When we have an indefinite antecedent (a SOMETHING), and a VERB + ANY OTHER PREPOSITION EXCEPT DE, which is what we have here, we use QUOI.
15. Tu as oublié le livre. J'ai pensé au livre. --> Tu as oublié le livre AUQUEL j'ai pensé.
Similar to case 5.
posted by andrewesque at 9:42 PM on August 10, 2013 [66 favorites]
I know that was a lot to process -- and I kind of pooped out towards the end, so sorry that the explanations got briefer and briefer -- but it may be helpful to also give some sample sentences that you are having trouble filling with relative pronouns, and I can help show you which paradigm they fall into.
posted by andrewesque at 9:44 PM on August 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by andrewesque at 9:44 PM on August 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
So, in summary. The "antecedent" is the noun that the two clauses have in common. Most commonly le livre in all my examples above. If the antecedent is playing the following role in the subordinate clause, use the following pronoun.
Example:
Voici l'ordinateur [PRON] j'ai acheté.
l'ordinateur is the antecedent, j'ai acheté is the subordinate clause, and in this case l'ordinateur is the object of that clause (I bought the computer, the computer didn't buy me) so we use QUE.
Definite antecedents
subject antecedent + any kind of verb --> QUI
verb + object antecedent --> QUE
verb + DE + object antecedent --> DONT
preposition + DE + object antecedent --> DUQUEL, DUQUELLE, DEXQUELS, DEXQUELLES
verb + À + object antecedent (person) --> À QUI
verb + À + object antecedent (inanimate) --> AUQUEL, À LAQUELLE, AUXQUELS, AUXQUELLES
Indefinite antecedents
subject indefinite antecedent + any kind of verb --> CE QUI
verb + object indefinite antecedent --> CE QUE
verb + DE + object indefinite antecedent --> CE DONT
verb + À + object indefinite antecedent --> À QUOI
posted by andrewesque at 10:10 PM on August 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
Example:
Voici l'ordinateur [PRON] j'ai acheté.
l'ordinateur is the antecedent, j'ai acheté is the subordinate clause, and in this case l'ordinateur is the object of that clause (I bought the computer, the computer didn't buy me) so we use QUE.
Definite antecedents
subject antecedent + any kind of verb --> QUI
verb + object antecedent --> QUE
verb + DE + object antecedent --> DONT
preposition + DE + object antecedent --> DUQUEL, DUQUELLE, DEXQUELS, DEXQUELLES
verb + À + object antecedent (person) --> À QUI
verb + À + object antecedent (inanimate) --> AUQUEL, À LAQUELLE, AUXQUELS, AUXQUELLES
Indefinite antecedents
subject indefinite antecedent + any kind of verb --> CE QUI
verb + object indefinite antecedent --> CE QUE
verb + DE + object indefinite antecedent --> CE DONT
verb + À + object indefinite antecedent --> À QUOI
posted by andrewesque at 10:10 PM on August 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
Any exemple of sentence where you wouldn't be sure which to use? I speak french (mothertongue) so I can help you!
posted by daile at 9:29 AM on August 11, 2013
posted by daile at 9:29 AM on August 11, 2013
Errors I caught from my summary above:
preposition + DE + object antecedent --> DUQUEL, DE LAQUELLE, DESQUELS, DESQUELLES
Whoops, the forms I had before (duquelle, dexquelles etc) don't actually exist.
posted by andrewesque at 9:59 AM on August 11, 2013
preposition + DE + object antecedent --> DUQUEL, DE LAQUELLE, DESQUELS, DESQUELLES
Whoops, the forms I had before (duquelle, dexquelles etc) don't actually exist.
posted by andrewesque at 9:59 AM on August 11, 2013
Here's a good summary of the rules (in French, PDF).
Note: GN = groupe nominal (déterminant + nom + complément du nom), GPrép = groupe prépositionnel (préposition + expansion). This stuff uses the new terminology, so complément direct = complément d'objet direct, complément indirect = complément d'objet indirect in more traditionnal terms.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 2:44 PM on August 11, 2013
Note: GN = groupe nominal (déterminant + nom + complément du nom), GPrép = groupe prépositionnel (préposition + expansion). This stuff uses the new terminology, so complément direct = complément d'objet direct, complément indirect = complément d'objet indirect in more traditionnal terms.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 2:44 PM on August 11, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
I also found with French that if you translate it directly, it's supposed to sound like someone from old-timey super-formal England, as if French and English were cousins at one point and then English went off in another direction. So like saying "what helps" they say "that which helps". I know when you're learning they say you're not supposed to try to understand things in terms of English like that, but it helped me wrap my head around it.
posted by bleep at 9:28 PM on August 10, 2013