Is it really such a bad idea for me to date this guy?
August 7, 2013 1:34 AM Subscribe
I googled this guy and found some troublesome things. How troubled should I really be?
I've had a lot of trouble finding guys to date no matter what I do. After months of online dating, I started talking to a guy who seemed great. He seemed like an intelligent, normal guy. He has a good education and is succeeding in his career goals. I told him about some problems I was having and he was extremely compassionate and kind when we were talking about them.
Anyway after I googled him, I found out at his last job he was fired for harassing a woman. She said that he made threats to her and she was scared of him.
It was made public exactly what he said to her and she said to him. Here's what it was.
-He asked her out and she turned him down in an indirect way.
-He tried again and she turned him down in a more direct way.
-A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive.
-At that point she asked him not to contact her again.
Then he told his other co-workers that he was going to do something minor but spiteful to make her feel bad. He basically sent around a company joke email about how a woman meeting a similar description to this woman had died in a Darwinian way. This was taken to be the death threat that he got in big trouble for.
Reading the whole story like that I know I sound crazy to be considering dating him. But everything I have experienced of this guy so far is completely the opposite of how he sounds in this whole story. He seems so NORMAL. He seems relaxed, happy, and compassionate, not spiteful and mean. We have not met, just talked off and on for about a month
What do you think, Metafilter? Give it to me.
I've had a lot of trouble finding guys to date no matter what I do. After months of online dating, I started talking to a guy who seemed great. He seemed like an intelligent, normal guy. He has a good education and is succeeding in his career goals. I told him about some problems I was having and he was extremely compassionate and kind when we were talking about them.
Anyway after I googled him, I found out at his last job he was fired for harassing a woman. She said that he made threats to her and she was scared of him.
It was made public exactly what he said to her and she said to him. Here's what it was.
-He asked her out and she turned him down in an indirect way.
-He tried again and she turned him down in a more direct way.
-A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive.
-At that point she asked him not to contact her again.
Then he told his other co-workers that he was going to do something minor but spiteful to make her feel bad. He basically sent around a company joke email about how a woman meeting a similar description to this woman had died in a Darwinian way. This was taken to be the death threat that he got in big trouble for.
Reading the whole story like that I know I sound crazy to be considering dating him. But everything I have experienced of this guy so far is completely the opposite of how he sounds in this whole story. He seems so NORMAL. He seems relaxed, happy, and compassionate, not spiteful and mean. We have not met, just talked off and on for about a month
What do you think, Metafilter? Give it to me.
But everything I have experienced of this guy so far is completely the opposite of how he sounds in this whole story.
Well you haven't turned him down yet. What happens later when something doesn't go his way?
posted by ryanrs at 1:43 AM on August 7, 2013 [44 favorites]
Well you haven't turned him down yet. What happens later when something doesn't go his way?
posted by ryanrs at 1:43 AM on August 7, 2013 [44 favorites]
I'd stay far away from him. That email is not only jerkish to the woman, but also mindblowingly stupid. Really, that is the kind of paper trail you leave in a professional environment? Because someone turned you down?
To my mind, this shows not only that he does not really respect women, but also that he is dangerously volatile and likely to react in a completely unpredictable manner, even if that means being self-destructive.
I'd even hesitate to say: "bring it up, see what he has to say about it, maybe it was completely unlike him", because no, and because his action makes me fear about the kind of emails you're gonna get down the line from him if you piss him off.
posted by miorita at 1:44 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
To my mind, this shows not only that he does not really respect women, but also that he is dangerously volatile and likely to react in a completely unpredictable manner, even if that means being self-destructive.
I'd even hesitate to say: "bring it up, see what he has to say about it, maybe it was completely unlike him", because no, and because his action makes me fear about the kind of emails you're gonna get down the line from him if you piss him off.
posted by miorita at 1:44 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
He seems so NORMAL. He seems relaxed, happy, and compassionate, not spiteful and mean.
Nobody starts dating abusers or stalkers because they seem mean or unhinged or scary. They start dating them because they seem normal and nice. Luckily you have intelligence that should warn you to steer clear of this guy before you get anywhere near involved.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:44 AM on August 7, 2013 [78 favorites]
Nobody starts dating abusers or stalkers because they seem mean or unhinged or scary. They start dating them because they seem normal and nice. Luckily you have intelligence that should warn you to steer clear of this guy before you get anywhere near involved.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:44 AM on August 7, 2013 [78 favorites]
Then he told his other co-workers that he was going to do something minor but spiteful to make her feel bad. He basically sent around a company joke email about how a woman meeting a similar description to this woman had died in a Darwinian way. This was taken to be the death threat that he got in big trouble for.
i'm not even sure what "dying in a darwinian way" means exactly but anyone who does spiteful things to make someone feel bad is bad news. i'd stay away from this guy and figure you've dodged a bullet.
also, if you look at the progression of events that you listed he kept escalating his behavior. it's one thing to not be clear if someone is interested but he should have dropped it after she clearly turned him down. he didn't. he kept pushing and pushing until he got fired. that shows me this guy does not respect others' boundaries. that is a major red flag.
on preview i would not bring this up with him either. just stop communicating with him or tell him you've moved on.
posted by wildflower at 1:47 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
i'm not even sure what "dying in a darwinian way" means exactly but anyone who does spiteful things to make someone feel bad is bad news. i'd stay away from this guy and figure you've dodged a bullet.
also, if you look at the progression of events that you listed he kept escalating his behavior. it's one thing to not be clear if someone is interested but he should have dropped it after she clearly turned him down. he didn't. he kept pushing and pushing until he got fired. that shows me this guy does not respect others' boundaries. that is a major red flag.
on preview i would not bring this up with him either. just stop communicating with him or tell him you've moved on.
posted by wildflower at 1:47 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Is it definitely the same person? If it is, end all contact right now before he gets any more attached. Filter his emails to a folder where you can keep them but don't have to see them, record all voicemails, don't answer the phone if he calls, etc. He sounds like an absolute shitbag - even if he doesn't act this way with you, do you really want to date someone who acts this way with other people?
posted by Solomon at 1:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Solomon at 1:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive.
Doesn't this really sound like your typical entitled okcupid troll reply right here? like, who thinks those guys aren't, to use his own language, guys whose minds aren't fully developed?
Like, for instance from this essay i love from a guy who worked at okcupid:
Then he told his other co-workers that he was going to do something minor but spiteful to make her feel bad. He basically sent around a company joke email about how a woman meeting a similar description to this woman had died in a Darwinian way. This was taken to be the death threat that he got in big trouble for.
Now, it would be one thing if this guy just took one rejection badly and moved on. You could reasonably assume that he had taken more than just that rejection badly, but it would still be like... a 4/10 on the red flag scale. Worthy of a drop, but not like O MY GOD I NEED WITNESS PROTECTION THIS PERSON MIGHT MURDER ME.
But this weird bizarre seething bitter shit, and continuing to bring it in to work and involve his coworkers in it presumably trying to bring more people over to his side of generally making her miserable as punishment? That's like, some weird next level abuser behavior. Like the kind of stuff people(including one of my uncles, ugh) who end up doing much worse things to other people later did while they were ramping up from "Blends in with the crowd as a normal-ish person" to "Weird psycho stalker". That is honestly, pretty frightening to me behavior. Like not just offputting, but like... wtf. These are two separate actions. The minor but spiteful thing is petty and kind of scary, and the "look, someone who looks just like her died! fancy that!" thing is just generally disturbing.
I always have a hard time putting this stuff in to words because the actions of weird, scary, and possibly abusive people like this are always pretty insidious. But this story trips ALL KINDS of "fucking sketchy creeper, red alert, shields up" switches in my head.
My thoughts are entirely unified on you becoming that girl if things ever don't go his way. He might let the minor stuff slide for a little while, but it's like why even bet that this was a one time thing? that's dedicated pathological bitterness.
I bet if you brought this up to him now and went "Hey, so i think i'm not gonna show up at the next date. I found this, and it sketched me out. Not really looking to be involved with someone like that, best of luck" You'd get some REALLY seething reply probably getting close to the FUCK U above.
posted by emptythought at 1:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [25 favorites]
Doesn't this really sound like your typical entitled okcupid troll reply right here? like, who thinks those guys aren't, to use his own language, guys whose minds aren't fully developed?
Like, for instance from this essay i love from a guy who worked at okcupid:
The following is a common exchange on dating sites:You see what i'm getting at here? The fact that he really ever took rejection this way from someone would be a weird red flag to me if i was looking for anything more than some kind of NSA thing, and even then i feel weird about giving validation to, association myself with, or just generally interacting with people i know are that kind of asshole.
From: Some_dudexxx
Subject: Hi there
You seem really nice, and cute. I saw you liked Depeche Mode, I just saw them in concert. Interested in a drink?
From: CuteChick293781
Subject: Re: Hi there
Hey, thank you! I'm not really interested, but good luck! :)
From: Some_dudexxx
Subject: Re: Re: Hi there
well FUCK U U FUCKING STUC UP C**T I DONT THINK UR THAT HOT ANYWAY WHORE
Then he told his other co-workers that he was going to do something minor but spiteful to make her feel bad. He basically sent around a company joke email about how a woman meeting a similar description to this woman had died in a Darwinian way. This was taken to be the death threat that he got in big trouble for.
Now, it would be one thing if this guy just took one rejection badly and moved on. You could reasonably assume that he had taken more than just that rejection badly, but it would still be like... a 4/10 on the red flag scale. Worthy of a drop, but not like O MY GOD I NEED WITNESS PROTECTION THIS PERSON MIGHT MURDER ME.
But this weird bizarre seething bitter shit, and continuing to bring it in to work and involve his coworkers in it presumably trying to bring more people over to his side of generally making her miserable as punishment? That's like, some weird next level abuser behavior. Like the kind of stuff people(including one of my uncles, ugh) who end up doing much worse things to other people later did while they were ramping up from "Blends in with the crowd as a normal-ish person" to "Weird psycho stalker". That is honestly, pretty frightening to me behavior. Like not just offputting, but like... wtf. These are two separate actions. The minor but spiteful thing is petty and kind of scary, and the "look, someone who looks just like her died! fancy that!" thing is just generally disturbing.
I always have a hard time putting this stuff in to words because the actions of weird, scary, and possibly abusive people like this are always pretty insidious. But this story trips ALL KINDS of "fucking sketchy creeper, red alert, shields up" switches in my head.
My thoughts are entirely unified on you becoming that girl if things ever don't go his way. He might let the minor stuff slide for a little while, but it's like why even bet that this was a one time thing? that's dedicated pathological bitterness.
I bet if you brought this up to him now and went "Hey, so i think i'm not gonna show up at the next date. I found this, and it sketched me out. Not really looking to be involved with someone like that, best of luck" You'd get some REALLY seething reply probably getting close to the FUCK U above.
posted by emptythought at 1:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [25 favorites]
To add on to DarlingBri's comment--it's not often, in my experience, that interactions like these even make it into the public record. If you're seeing things online explicitly documenting his bad behavior, you can pretty much bet that it's an example of a larger pattern.
posted by stellaluna at 1:50 AM on August 7, 2013 [31 favorites]
posted by stellaluna at 1:50 AM on August 7, 2013 [31 favorites]
Most people you're getting to know don't wear their crazy face until it's too late. I mean, everyone is always on their best behavior at first -- especially when they want something.
Thing is, these are facts-- they're out there and they are documented. It's not hearsay. It's not 'she said' or the agenda of someone who wants to drag his name through the mud-- he did these things. He sent that email. He made that 'death' 'joke'. Ugh.
You're sure it's him? Not someone with the same name? If it's definitely him, I would not continue to date him. At all. I'd run far away.
You're right to have misgivings. I'm sure he was 'nice' and 'normal' to her too at first.
posted by Dimes at 1:52 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Thing is, these are facts-- they're out there and they are documented. It's not hearsay. It's not 'she said' or the agenda of someone who wants to drag his name through the mud-- he did these things. He sent that email. He made that 'death' 'joke'. Ugh.
You're sure it's him? Not someone with the same name? If it's definitely him, I would not continue to date him. At all. I'd run far away.
You're right to have misgivings. I'm sure he was 'nice' and 'normal' to her too at first.
posted by Dimes at 1:52 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
SURE he seems nice and normal --- as ryanrs says, you haven't turned him down yet, so YOU DON'T KNOW. All you've done so far is talk to him and ask for his advice: you've totally let him be the lead in this budding relationship, you haven't asserted yourself to tell him NO about something: and his reaction on being told that 'no' is the crux of the problem.... you do however have proof, in writing, of how he reacted when told 'no' by this former coworker.
The other thing to remember (besides his proven refusal to accept a firm 'no') is, people tend to react in patterns: it's a pretty fair guess that if he behaved like that once, he's done it multiple times --- it just hasn't ended up where you could google it. Maybe other women haven't wanted to "hurt his career" or something by pursuing it, but I really, REALLY doubt this was the only time he behaved like that.
posted by easily confused at 2:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
The other thing to remember (besides his proven refusal to accept a firm 'no') is, people tend to react in patterns: it's a pretty fair guess that if he behaved like that once, he's done it multiple times --- it just hasn't ended up where you could google it. Maybe other women haven't wanted to "hurt his career" or something by pursuing it, but I really, REALLY doubt this was the only time he behaved like that.
posted by easily confused at 2:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
1) Are you absolutely certain this is the same person? People can share the same name etc etc.
2) We have not met, just talked off and on for about a month - let's be real, here: you have had very limited and controlled interactions with this guy, and really don't know much about him, or who he is, or how he acts in real life. I am not saying that you cannot learn something from online or virtual interactions - heck, I met my partner of 8 years online - but they are absolutely not the same as real-life interaction.
So, if I was you, I would firstly go out of my way to verify that this is the same person, and then consider how to proceed from there. Personally, I probably wouldn't go there, but by the same token, I think we can all have a tendency to make judgements based on a single moment in a person's life. Those are all dick moves to be sure, but how long ago were they? Perhaps he has learnt something from them. People do learn things, and change.
If it is the same guy, and you decide to proceed, I would probably be a little more ginger sharing things like my address, workplace, etc than I otherwise would. You could always talk to him about it, too. His reaction will probably be defensive, but it may well give you insight into how he dealt with the event and what kind of a person he is today.
posted by smoke at 2:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
2) We have not met, just talked off and on for about a month - let's be real, here: you have had very limited and controlled interactions with this guy, and really don't know much about him, or who he is, or how he acts in real life. I am not saying that you cannot learn something from online or virtual interactions - heck, I met my partner of 8 years online - but they are absolutely not the same as real-life interaction.
So, if I was you, I would firstly go out of my way to verify that this is the same person, and then consider how to proceed from there. Personally, I probably wouldn't go there, but by the same token, I think we can all have a tendency to make judgements based on a single moment in a person's life. Those are all dick moves to be sure, but how long ago were they? Perhaps he has learnt something from them. People do learn things, and change.
If it is the same guy, and you decide to proceed, I would probably be a little more ginger sharing things like my address, workplace, etc than I otherwise would. You could always talk to him about it, too. His reaction will probably be defensive, but it may well give you insight into how he dealt with the event and what kind of a person he is today.
posted by smoke at 2:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: 1) Are you absolutely certain this is the same person? People can share the same name etc etc.
Yup, it is definitely him.
posted by anonymousme at 2:22 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yup, it is definitely him.
posted by anonymousme at 2:22 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not worth it. At best, he's immature and spiteful when things don't go his way. At worst...well, your imagination can do better than anything I could possibly say.
Creeps don't start off as creeps. They get their hooks in you and then they show you their true face once you're emotionally invested.
Don't date him.
posted by inturnaround at 2:27 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Creeps don't start off as creeps. They get their hooks in you and then they show you their true face once you're emotionally invested.
Don't date him.
posted by inturnaround at 2:27 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
...definitely him
Then run.
Look, we all act differently in different phases of our lives, and differently around different people, so yeah, he naturally approaches you in a different way than he approached this other person. Up to here that's neither good nor bad.
What really gets me in your story is the level of fuckwit-revengefulness that seems to have guided that guy's actions.
As long as it's all peachy and mid-summery, it's cool to be around a lot of people. Have another look in November, that is, the metaphorical November of a potential relationship turned sour
posted by Namlit at 2:28 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
Then run.
Look, we all act differently in different phases of our lives, and differently around different people, so yeah, he naturally approaches you in a different way than he approached this other person. Up to here that's neither good nor bad.
What really gets me in your story is the level of fuckwit-revengefulness that seems to have guided that guy's actions.
As long as it's all peachy and mid-summery, it's cool to be around a lot of people. Have another look in November, that is, the metaphorical November of a potential relationship turned sour
posted by Namlit at 2:28 AM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
You don't really know this guy. Apparently 'normal' can easily mask their creepy side in the short term and at distance.
Finding out something as concrete as this is little different from getting the information from a trusted source like a friend.
You are clear that the harasser and your guy are one and the same. There are plenty more people out there who do not react in such an extreme way to rejection.
He has not had a single, perhaps ambiguous, discretion in the heat of the moment but a pattern of deliberate harassing behaviour stretching over months.
I suppose leopards can change their spots, but more often people who behave the way you describe this guy make an art form of lying and being extremely attentive and engaging before they show their true colours. No wife beater ever got the girl dependent on him by punching her in the face on the first date.
Everything you have described suggests that you run a strong risk of inviting unnecessary drama into your life. Which I suspect you already know. If you're looking for anecdata suggesting the contrary it tends to be thin on the ground for a reason.
In short: DTMFA.
posted by MuffinMan at 2:56 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Finding out something as concrete as this is little different from getting the information from a trusted source like a friend.
You are clear that the harasser and your guy are one and the same. There are plenty more people out there who do not react in such an extreme way to rejection.
He has not had a single, perhaps ambiguous, discretion in the heat of the moment but a pattern of deliberate harassing behaviour stretching over months.
I suppose leopards can change their spots, but more often people who behave the way you describe this guy make an art form of lying and being extremely attentive and engaging before they show their true colours. No wife beater ever got the girl dependent on him by punching her in the face on the first date.
Everything you have described suggests that you run a strong risk of inviting unnecessary drama into your life. Which I suspect you already know. If you're looking for anecdata suggesting the contrary it tends to be thin on the ground for a reason.
In short: DTMFA.
posted by MuffinMan at 2:56 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
"I've had a lot of trouble finding guys to date no matter what I do."
What would you have done if you had a slightly easier time finding seemingly compatible guys? Would you even have posted this askme? Or would you have dismissed him out of hand because of his past behaviour?
posted by moody cow at 3:10 AM on August 7, 2013 [11 favorites]
What would you have done if you had a slightly easier time finding seemingly compatible guys? Would you even have posted this askme? Or would you have dismissed him out of hand because of his past behaviour?
posted by moody cow at 3:10 AM on August 7, 2013 [11 favorites]
First, I'm not sure why you're running a background check for someone you're dating. Second, the fact that googling someone's name reveals allegations about past bad behavior (why does this kind of thing even show up on the Internet?) does not necessary mean that the guy really did behave badly. Thus it may be rash to break up just because of the weak evidence you have. Why not ask him? Maybe there's an explanation.
posted by faustdick at 3:25 AM on August 7, 2013
posted by faustdick at 3:25 AM on August 7, 2013
His behavior is not how mature, emotionally intelligent adults act. [I assume] You want to date a mature, emotionally intelligent adult, so don't date him.
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:31 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by needs more cowbell at 3:31 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
I agree with the above comments that it's better to be safe than sorry, especially about someone you don't know very well at all. Please, whatever you do, make sure that you are safe, and listen to your instincts.
Having said that, as someone who was subjected to a smear campaign, not at work but at a community space where I volunteered (I am a woman and allegations against me did not involve sexual harassment or stalking), I would try to be cautiously open minded about whether he could possibly have been targeted unfairly.
He does say that she had been rude to him in public for months and he was entitled to an explanation why. That could be true. It's possible that she overreacted to his interest in her, and that she acted like a complete jerk, including humiliating him in public. Perhaps being subjected to her rudeness for months got to him. It doesn't really excuse the strangeness of his reaction, if that was the case, but it could be that he felt unfairly treated.
And since I don't know what "died in a Darwinian way" means, it could be that the company fired him simply to cover their asses, and that what he said was not actually a threat. And shame on them for putting this information on the internet when he was not allowed to defend himself or have access to some kind of due process, which might have exonerated him.
Still, he does give me the creeps, and I would be very wary.
posted by Vispa Teresa at 3:54 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Having said that, as someone who was subjected to a smear campaign, not at work but at a community space where I volunteered (I am a woman and allegations against me did not involve sexual harassment or stalking), I would try to be cautiously open minded about whether he could possibly have been targeted unfairly.
He does say that she had been rude to him in public for months and he was entitled to an explanation why. That could be true. It's possible that she overreacted to his interest in her, and that she acted like a complete jerk, including humiliating him in public. Perhaps being subjected to her rudeness for months got to him. It doesn't really excuse the strangeness of his reaction, if that was the case, but it could be that he felt unfairly treated.
And since I don't know what "died in a Darwinian way" means, it could be that the company fired him simply to cover their asses, and that what he said was not actually a threat. And shame on them for putting this information on the internet when he was not allowed to defend himself or have access to some kind of due process, which might have exonerated him.
Still, he does give me the creeps, and I would be very wary.
posted by Vispa Teresa at 3:54 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
You haven't met in person? This is your window of opportunity. Disappear. Don't respond to future messages, regardless of the medium or content. Filter and save them in case you need to show them to the authorities down the line, heaven forbid.
You know the fable of the frog and the scorpion? You just found out that this guy has a stinger and a known record of hurting frogs.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:56 AM on August 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
You know the fable of the frog and the scorpion? You just found out that this guy has a stinger and a known record of hurting frogs.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:56 AM on August 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
Don't make the decision based on the fact that you have been having trouble meeting guys to date no matter what you have done. Make your decision based on the facts and your gut in this specific case.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:00 AM on August 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
posted by JohnnyGunn at 4:00 AM on August 7, 2013 [19 favorites]
That kind of behaviour usually isn't just about being turned down for a date. It's about being told 'no' by a woman whose time and attention he believes himself entitled to. If you start up a relationship with him, then you'll avoid the rejection scenario - but you'll still have to say 'no' to him about something, somewhere down the line. How's he going to handle that?
posted by Catseye at 4:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
posted by Catseye at 4:02 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
I think "died in a Darwinian way" refers to the Darwin Awards - they posthumously mock people who die in particularly stupid ways, like from daring each other to lick power lines or something.
OP. I think you have no obligation to be fair to the guy or "give him a chance". Being safe from harassment is more important than being open minded. You also have no obligation to explain to the guy that or why you are vanishing, particularly since he takes rejection badly.
posted by Omnomnom at 4:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
OP. I think you have no obligation to be fair to the guy or "give him a chance". Being safe from harassment is more important than being open minded. You also have no obligation to explain to the guy that or why you are vanishing, particularly since he takes rejection badly.
posted by Omnomnom at 4:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
First, I'm not sure why you're running a background check for someone you're dating.
As a woman who has done online dating, I know exactly why you're running a background check for someone you're considering dating. (Read the question, people - she hasn't even met him yet).
I also know why you're still considering it. But I don't think you should. I know it's tough out there, but you don't need this.
posted by Salamander at 4:35 AM on August 7, 2013 [32 favorites]
As a woman who has done online dating, I know exactly why you're running a background check for someone you're considering dating. (Read the question, people - she hasn't even met him yet).
I also know why you're still considering it. But I don't think you should. I know it's tough out there, but you don't need this.
posted by Salamander at 4:35 AM on August 7, 2013 [32 favorites]
A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive.
-At that point she asked him not to contact her again.
What if you were the woman in question? Do you think she's so different from you?
I'm sure we'd all like to be more direct in lots of situations but that's just the way it's done most of the time. We use a light touch with others because it's the compassionate and decent thing to do. I mean, think about it. Let's say you interviewed somebody for a job with your company and they were an ok person but a bad fit for the company. Would you abruptly stand at the end of the interview, point at the door and say loudly, "Please leave now. We don't want you to work here. You don't have enough experience and we tend to hire associates who are ten years younger than you because our corporate image skews younger and edgier."? No. No, you wouldn't.
In my experience, people who don't pick up on and respect indirect cues in dating situations have either self-esteem or entitlement issues, or both. Further, and more to the point, anyone who behaves in a bullying or vicious way when they don't get what they want is a looooooong way away from being ready for serious intimacy. Intimacy requires understanding, maturity and the ego strength to be vulnerable and risk getting hurt. It requires being able to gracefully accept not getting what we want sometimes. Someone who calls a woman old, stupid (her "mind is not fully developed" - wtf?), and ugly ("unattractive") isn't strong enough for what real relationships require of us. By way of example, I encourage you to imagine someone you KNOW loves you and cares about your well-being calling you a stupid, old, ugly [insert epithet], and really sit with how completely bizarre and impossible that seems. And, if that doesn't seem totally impossible, then you have a larger, worse problem than some immature, angry little dude who calls people names when his ego takes a blow.
Lastly, you say he was really compassionate when you shared some of your problems with him. I want to gently suggest that it's not in your best interest to share certain of your problems with people you're just getting to know. This really isn't how successful dating works. Sharing "problems", I think, is sometimes about engaging the other person in a tacit pact to not hurt you in the same way you've already been hurt. But it's a poor substitute for the kind of trust that is earned slowly and honestly over time because it sets up a power imbalance from the get-go. Food for thought.
In short, don't pursue this. This guy is all kinds of not ready to properly care for your heart.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 4:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [43 favorites]
-At that point she asked him not to contact her again.
What if you were the woman in question? Do you think she's so different from you?
I'm sure we'd all like to be more direct in lots of situations but that's just the way it's done most of the time. We use a light touch with others because it's the compassionate and decent thing to do. I mean, think about it. Let's say you interviewed somebody for a job with your company and they were an ok person but a bad fit for the company. Would you abruptly stand at the end of the interview, point at the door and say loudly, "Please leave now. We don't want you to work here. You don't have enough experience and we tend to hire associates who are ten years younger than you because our corporate image skews younger and edgier."? No. No, you wouldn't.
In my experience, people who don't pick up on and respect indirect cues in dating situations have either self-esteem or entitlement issues, or both. Further, and more to the point, anyone who behaves in a bullying or vicious way when they don't get what they want is a looooooong way away from being ready for serious intimacy. Intimacy requires understanding, maturity and the ego strength to be vulnerable and risk getting hurt. It requires being able to gracefully accept not getting what we want sometimes. Someone who calls a woman old, stupid (her "mind is not fully developed" - wtf?), and ugly ("unattractive") isn't strong enough for what real relationships require of us. By way of example, I encourage you to imagine someone you KNOW loves you and cares about your well-being calling you a stupid, old, ugly [insert epithet], and really sit with how completely bizarre and impossible that seems. And, if that doesn't seem totally impossible, then you have a larger, worse problem than some immature, angry little dude who calls people names when his ego takes a blow.
Lastly, you say he was really compassionate when you shared some of your problems with him. I want to gently suggest that it's not in your best interest to share certain of your problems with people you're just getting to know. This really isn't how successful dating works. Sharing "problems", I think, is sometimes about engaging the other person in a tacit pact to not hurt you in the same way you've already been hurt. But it's a poor substitute for the kind of trust that is earned slowly and honestly over time because it sets up a power imbalance from the get-go. Food for thought.
In short, don't pursue this. This guy is all kinds of not ready to properly care for your heart.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 4:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [43 favorites]
Run very quickly away. Reacting badly in the heat of the moment is bad enough. Taking premeditated action is much much worse.
posted by Solomon at 4:41 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Solomon at 4:41 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Another reason not to date him is that he is obviously inept at online reputation management.
posted by Sophont at 4:52 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Sophont at 4:52 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Don't make the decision based on the fact that you have been having trouble meeting guys to date no matter what you have done. Make your decision based on the facts and your gut in this specific case.
Exactly this. To add a little bit--it is much, much, much better to be alone than to be with an asshole. This guy has a documented history of trying to humiliate a woman who didn't do something he wanted her to do. Do you want to invest time and potentially your heart into a relationship with someone like that?
posted by Kimberly at 5:09 AM on August 7, 2013 [9 favorites]
Exactly this. To add a little bit--it is much, much, much better to be alone than to be with an asshole. This guy has a documented history of trying to humiliate a woman who didn't do something he wanted her to do. Do you want to invest time and potentially your heart into a relationship with someone like that?
posted by Kimberly at 5:09 AM on August 7, 2013 [9 favorites]
As others have said, creeps don't act like creeps at the onset of a relationship, just the same way abusers don't act abusive right from the beginning. If they did they no one would ever be crazy enough to date them. Assholes can be well educated and have good careers. Assholes can fake compassion if they think it will help them get what they want. I think you have more than enough to work from to know that this guy is NOT someone you want to date. Nothing in your question leads me to think he is worth giving a shot. I mean, jesus, you aren't even dating and he is already throwing off major alarm bells! The fact that you're even asking says a whole lot. I think you already know this guy is bad news and that you should run, but the fact that you've had trouble finding partners in the past is making you wonder if maybe he is the best you can do.
Trust me when I say he is NOT the best you can do. You can do a whole hell of a lot better.
I know first hand how frustrating it is to keep finding the wrong one over and over when all you want is the right one. I also know of the temptations of settling for someone you know isn't good enough because part of you thinks "well, it would be better than being single". It isn't. A crap relationship with a guy like this would NOT be better than being single. And then, when you finally realize it yourself and want to end it, it sounds like he is going to be an enormous asshole about it. Please please please hold yourself to a higher standard.
As a metaphor: Just because you haven't eaten at a restaurant for a while doesn't mean a plate of rancid hamburger and expired milk from a convenience store will suffice. You won't enjoy it, it will be incredibly unhealthy for you. You aren't starving. You aren't harming yourself by not eating at restaurants right now. Wait for the five star restaurant you know you deserve.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 6:03 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Trust me when I say he is NOT the best you can do. You can do a whole hell of a lot better.
I know first hand how frustrating it is to keep finding the wrong one over and over when all you want is the right one. I also know of the temptations of settling for someone you know isn't good enough because part of you thinks "well, it would be better than being single". It isn't. A crap relationship with a guy like this would NOT be better than being single. And then, when you finally realize it yourself and want to end it, it sounds like he is going to be an enormous asshole about it. Please please please hold yourself to a higher standard.
As a metaphor: Just because you haven't eaten at a restaurant for a while doesn't mean a plate of rancid hamburger and expired milk from a convenience store will suffice. You won't enjoy it, it will be incredibly unhealthy for you. You aren't starving. You aren't harming yourself by not eating at restaurants right now. Wait for the five star restaurant you know you deserve.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 6:03 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
nth-ing the advice to run, do not walk, away from this dude. The no-contact, filter-email-to-folder advice is sound.
I also want to echo that you can do better. Time you spend on this person is time you aren't spending looking for someone who could be much better fro you.
posted by Gelatin at 6:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
I also want to echo that you can do better. Time you spend on this person is time you aren't spending looking for someone who could be much better fro you.
posted by Gelatin at 6:05 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
He's charming you by his seeming normality....don't fall for it. Make him (virtually) disappear.
You're lucky to have uncovered such black-and-white evidence against this creep.
posted by BostonTerrier at 6:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
You're lucky to have uncovered such black-and-white evidence against this creep.
posted by BostonTerrier at 6:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
All the info about the editor from Tor who harassed women for years at cons only came out on the Internet, too, but so what? It happened. And in this case, the OP isn't even actually dating this guy yet, and has nothing to lose by continuing to not date him.
OP, run/fall off the planet. Nthing the advice that you not let your desire to be in a relationship lead you into the place of any relationship being better than none.
posted by rtha at 6:29 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
OP, run/fall off the planet. Nthing the advice that you not let your desire to be in a relationship lead you into the place of any relationship being better than none.
posted by rtha at 6:29 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
If his last job was 10 years ago I'd consider whether he'd grown since then, but I'm assuming this was pretty recent? That's bad news. I don't even need to get to the jokey death threats and firing; this part is pretty creepy:
"A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive."
Guys whose reaction to rejection is to demand explanations (they assume their default state is to be accepted, and rejection requires justification) are not usually great partners; it's really solipsistic and selfish, in that he seems to view others as adjuncts to himself and his own behavior as above reproach. Luckily, he feeds her what her appropriate explanation would be: She's immature and her mind isn't fully developed, which is obviously the only reason she wouldn't understand how awesome he is. Again, he can't see any RATIONAL reason she wouldn't want to be with him, which justifies him pushing her boundaries and refusing to take her irrational "no"s for an answer. When others' opinions or behavior don't comport with his view of himself, he simply refuses to acknowledge those opinions and pushes at them until that person gives in, insisting on the inferiority of those opinions and therefore their lack of validity.
The petty "you're old and ugly" bit is just bitter icing on the cake.
It will probably all go fine until he tells you he's really into antiquing and you say Scandianvian Modern is more your style and that other people's old furniture gives you the heebie jeebies, at which point he will not just have a debate with you about the merits of old vs. new furniture, but will launch into an all-out war to get you to see his clearly correct opinion and give up your taste as incorrect. If you attempt to demure and say it's a matter of taste, he'll roll right over that and continue his campaign to convert you to the correct view.
Which is to say, he'll seem perfectly charming until you disagree with him about something he views as self-defining (himself and his desirability, some hobby he holds particularly close), at which point you'll discover he views other humans entirely as supporting characters in the movie of his life, and gets actively angry when they go off script.
He reminds me of this guy.
I'm dying to know how all his firing stuff ended up on the internet (and obviously to read it for myself, this guy sounds like a real peach).
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:29 AM on August 7, 2013 [15 favorites]
"A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive."
Guys whose reaction to rejection is to demand explanations (they assume their default state is to be accepted, and rejection requires justification) are not usually great partners; it's really solipsistic and selfish, in that he seems to view others as adjuncts to himself and his own behavior as above reproach. Luckily, he feeds her what her appropriate explanation would be: She's immature and her mind isn't fully developed, which is obviously the only reason she wouldn't understand how awesome he is. Again, he can't see any RATIONAL reason she wouldn't want to be with him, which justifies him pushing her boundaries and refusing to take her irrational "no"s for an answer. When others' opinions or behavior don't comport with his view of himself, he simply refuses to acknowledge those opinions and pushes at them until that person gives in, insisting on the inferiority of those opinions and therefore their lack of validity.
The petty "you're old and ugly" bit is just bitter icing on the cake.
It will probably all go fine until he tells you he's really into antiquing and you say Scandianvian Modern is more your style and that other people's old furniture gives you the heebie jeebies, at which point he will not just have a debate with you about the merits of old vs. new furniture, but will launch into an all-out war to get you to see his clearly correct opinion and give up your taste as incorrect. If you attempt to demure and say it's a matter of taste, he'll roll right over that and continue his campaign to convert you to the correct view.
Which is to say, he'll seem perfectly charming until you disagree with him about something he views as self-defining (himself and his desirability, some hobby he holds particularly close), at which point you'll discover he views other humans entirely as supporting characters in the movie of his life, and gets actively angry when they go off script.
He reminds me of this guy.
I'm dying to know how all his firing stuff ended up on the internet (and obviously to read it for myself, this guy sounds like a real peach).
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:29 AM on August 7, 2013 [15 favorites]
I can see that you want to be fair to someone who hasn't been anything but nice to you. And of course, you found a promising lead e-dating, which is tough to do. And there's his side of this story, too, right?
You googled him both to find out more about him, and to run something of a background check. And it turned up something troubling.
It may not be fair or nice, but you would do yourself well to trust that his past workplace did whatever due process they had to find out the truth of the situation, and that the story as reported is on the whole true.
It may not be. He may be the perfectly nice guy that he looks to be to you. But -- it may be hard to be this abrupt, you're going to have to err on the side of caution here, and your own physical and emotional well being. You got the big red flag before anything even happened to you, so discontinue contact, and keep looking.
Sorry.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:34 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
You googled him both to find out more about him, and to run something of a background check. And it turned up something troubling.
It may not be fair or nice, but you would do yourself well to trust that his past workplace did whatever due process they had to find out the truth of the situation, and that the story as reported is on the whole true.
It may not be. He may be the perfectly nice guy that he looks to be to you. But -- it may be hard to be this abrupt, you're going to have to err on the side of caution here, and your own physical and emotional well being. You got the big red flag before anything even happened to you, so discontinue contact, and keep looking.
Sorry.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:34 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Lastly, you say he was really compassionate when you shared some of your problems with him. I want to gently suggest that it's not in your best interest to share certain of your problems with people you're just getting to know. This really isn't how successful dating works. Sharing "problems", I think, is sometimes about engaging the other person in a tacit pact to not hurt you in the same way you've already been hurt. But it's a poor substitute for the kind of trust that is earned slowly and honestly over time because it sets up a power imbalance from the get-go. Food for thought.
I think this deserves repeating. Talking about problems with someone new can rapidly foster a sense of intimacy: you're sharing strongly felt personal matters and getting support. It also gives the person providing support a low-risk opportunity to show that they're kind and willing to listen. But this instant intimacy can make things harder in the long run: you get used to interacting with them in crisis mode, or you start leaning too much on them for emotional support, or you feel uncomfortable leaving because you've already shared so much with them, or you don't know where to turn when they're the ones giving you problems.
It's not a red flag or a death knell for a new friendship or relationship, and most of the time the worst that happens is things fizzle and it's a little more painful and confusing than a slower-progressing relationship, because you'd felt a stronger and quicker connection. But when it happens in a situation that does throw up red flags, it can often lead people to willfully disregard them, which never ends well.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [13 favorites]
I think this deserves repeating. Talking about problems with someone new can rapidly foster a sense of intimacy: you're sharing strongly felt personal matters and getting support. It also gives the person providing support a low-risk opportunity to show that they're kind and willing to listen. But this instant intimacy can make things harder in the long run: you get used to interacting with them in crisis mode, or you start leaning too much on them for emotional support, or you feel uncomfortable leaving because you've already shared so much with them, or you don't know where to turn when they're the ones giving you problems.
It's not a red flag or a death knell for a new friendship or relationship, and most of the time the worst that happens is things fizzle and it's a little more painful and confusing than a slower-progressing relationship, because you'd felt a stronger and quicker connection. But when it happens in a situation that does throw up red flags, it can often lead people to willfully disregard them, which never ends well.
posted by Metroid Baby at 6:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [13 favorites]
Mod note: Ask Metafilter is not for discussion. If there's a directly pertinent point of confusion you'd like the OP to clarify in order to provide a better answer, feel free to point it out; please do not ask questions for the sake of criticism or to invite debate.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:43 AM on August 7, 2013
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:43 AM on August 7, 2013
These two things are at the crux of the issue:
-A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive.
Then he told his other co-workers that he was going to do something minor but spiteful to make her feel bad.
Sending insults in response to rejection in the moment is immature and stupid, but, at least based on what I've seen in online dating, common enough to be pretty close to normal on the spectrum of reactions. Normal-bad, rather than normal-good, but not unusual.
But neither of these is that. In one case, he waited *months* after she turned him down to insult and harass her, and in the other case, he deliberately planned to publicly humiliate her.
Unless you enjoy being personally insulted and publicly humiliated, this is not the guy for you, because those appear to be his reactions to any kind of rejection, and even if your relationship is perfect and lovey-dovey, at some point, you're going to fight. And then you're going to have to find out how a guy who reacts this poorly to some woman he only has a crush on at work reacts when the person hurting his feelings is someone he feels close to and proprietary about. And I'm guessing that's not going to be pretty.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
-A few months later he sent her an email saying she had been rude to him in public for months and saying he was entitled to an explanation why. In this email he insulted her by saying in so many words that she was immature and her mind wasn't fully developed, and that she looked old and unattractive.
Then he told his other co-workers that he was going to do something minor but spiteful to make her feel bad.
Sending insults in response to rejection in the moment is immature and stupid, but, at least based on what I've seen in online dating, common enough to be pretty close to normal on the spectrum of reactions. Normal-bad, rather than normal-good, but not unusual.
But neither of these is that. In one case, he waited *months* after she turned him down to insult and harass her, and in the other case, he deliberately planned to publicly humiliate her.
Unless you enjoy being personally insulted and publicly humiliated, this is not the guy for you, because those appear to be his reactions to any kind of rejection, and even if your relationship is perfect and lovey-dovey, at some point, you're going to fight. And then you're going to have to find out how a guy who reacts this poorly to some woman he only has a crush on at work reacts when the person hurting his feelings is someone he feels close to and proprietary about. And I'm guessing that's not going to be pretty.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think that there are plenty of guys out there, and settling for someone who does this kind of thing is unnessessary.
I too had a hard time meeting great guys. But, I developed other interests, hung out with my friends and had a great life on my own. When I met Husbunny, it was magical. We've been together for over a decade and I'm glad I waited and I'm glad I didn't pine away when I was single.
It sucks sometimes when you feel like the last single person in your group. But I promise, if you are picky, you'll end up with the best person in the world for you.
"You get what you settle for."
If you're still considering dating this yutz, send him an email that says, "I found some disturbing stuff about you on the interwebs. It's making me have second thoughts about dating you."
A normal guy will email back something like this: "What I did was horrible. I learned a lot from that experience and I totally understand why you'd be concerned."
An entitled douchebag will email something back less evolved.
So, do the experiment. This guy doesn't have your address does he?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
I too had a hard time meeting great guys. But, I developed other interests, hung out with my friends and had a great life on my own. When I met Husbunny, it was magical. We've been together for over a decade and I'm glad I waited and I'm glad I didn't pine away when I was single.
It sucks sometimes when you feel like the last single person in your group. But I promise, if you are picky, you'll end up with the best person in the world for you.
"You get what you settle for."
If you're still considering dating this yutz, send him an email that says, "I found some disturbing stuff about you on the interwebs. It's making me have second thoughts about dating you."
A normal guy will email back something like this: "What I did was horrible. I learned a lot from that experience and I totally understand why you'd be concerned."
An entitled douchebag will email something back less evolved.
So, do the experiment. This guy doesn't have your address does he?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:06 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
What is the source of the information you have on him? It an authoritative source like case law or court documents? Is it someone's personal blog? If it authoritative sources then I would immediately drop him, if it is a more questionable source I would have a conversation with him first to rule out a smear campaign before making a decision (if it is a smear campaign I would want pretty definitive proof that it IS a smear campaign though).
posted by saucysault at 7:08 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by saucysault at 7:08 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree with the bulk of the answers here, but can imagine that if I were in your shoes, I might still feel like I ought to give this guy a chance, or that I wasn't being "fair" to him for judging him based on what was on the internet, so let me add this: by cutting ties with him you aren't denying him access to income, healthcare, affordable housing, the right to pursue happiness, or anything of the sort. You're simply denying him access to you - and access to your you should ALWAYS be on your own terms, with your own best interests coming first.
If you did decide to go further and possibly date him, would you even be able to feel comfortable? Knowing what you know, I'd imagine it would be hard not to read everything he does through the lens of "is that a red flag? Is this where reaches his tipping point? Was that thing he just said a hint at something darker that's about to come out?" So "fair" or not, I believe any relationship that might happen at this point would be happening under far less than ideal circumstances, with a lack of trust right out of the gate. Even talking to him first about this is probably not going to be that helpful - is he really going to own up if he did it, and would you ever be able to trust him even if he says he's innocent?
So in addition to all the very good reasons mentioned above, I'd consider how comfortable you could possibly be with him at this point. There are better matches out there for you.
posted by DingoMutt at 7:12 AM on August 7, 2013 [11 favorites]
If you did decide to go further and possibly date him, would you even be able to feel comfortable? Knowing what you know, I'd imagine it would be hard not to read everything he does through the lens of "is that a red flag? Is this where reaches his tipping point? Was that thing he just said a hint at something darker that's about to come out?" So "fair" or not, I believe any relationship that might happen at this point would be happening under far less than ideal circumstances, with a lack of trust right out of the gate. Even talking to him first about this is probably not going to be that helpful - is he really going to own up if he did it, and would you ever be able to trust him even if he says he's innocent?
So in addition to all the very good reasons mentioned above, I'd consider how comfortable you could possibly be with him at this point. There are better matches out there for you.
posted by DingoMutt at 7:12 AM on August 7, 2013 [11 favorites]
Everybody else has already said it: this has red flags all over it.
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:24 AM on August 7, 2013
posted by StrawberryPie at 7:24 AM on August 7, 2013
My first husband seemed like a nice normal guy too. I would have appreciated knowing what his prior behaviour with women was like, but this was decades ago and people who had known him previously never filled me in until after I had married him and things began to... change. I guess they thought that things would be different with me, because I was such a strong, smart woman.
Things were not different with me.
You know one thing: this dog bites. You don't know when he'll bite again. Don't let it be you.
I'm sorry that you've had months of looking with no better luck than this. But don't let the passage of time push you into anything you have even the vaguest of hinky feelings about. Trust your instincts - the very fact that you're asking the question means that deep down inside you already have the answer.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 7:35 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Things were not different with me.
You know one thing: this dog bites. You don't know when he'll bite again. Don't let it be you.
I'm sorry that you've had months of looking with no better luck than this. But don't let the passage of time push you into anything you have even the vaguest of hinky feelings about. Trust your instincts - the very fact that you're asking the question means that deep down inside you already have the answer.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 7:35 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
A couple people upthread have mentioned the possibility of a smear campaign. But in your post, you don't seem to be questioning the veracity of the harassment report, but asking if the behavior is really that bad.
The answer is yes, it's really really that bad. The guy is a creep.
He was fired from a job for his behavior toward a woman, yet you are considering starting a relationship with him? Listen, it can be a lot harder firing someone from a relationship, and you have specific information that this man doesn't take rejection well. Don't get yourself into this, and count yourself lucky that you didn't.
posted by torticat at 7:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
The answer is yes, it's really really that bad. The guy is a creep.
He was fired from a job for his behavior toward a woman, yet you are considering starting a relationship with him? Listen, it can be a lot harder firing someone from a relationship, and you have specific information that this man doesn't take rejection well. Don't get yourself into this, and count yourself lucky that you didn't.
posted by torticat at 7:37 AM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Sending insults in response to rejection in the moment is immature and stupid, but, at least based on what I've seen in online dating, common enough to be pretty close to normal on the spectrum of reactions. Normal-bad, rather than normal-good, but not unusual.
I have to disagree that entitled misogyny is anywhere near "normal." I just got out of a horribly emotionally abusive relationship with a guy who had attitudes like this. I ignored this red flag because he was WONDERFUL to me...at first.
Your online acquaintance is a woman-hater. Eventually it will be turned against you. That "Old, ugly, and stupid" thing? I got that from him, and so did the woman he dated prior to me. (I think that line and variations of it are in the Entitled Sexist Narcissist Douchebag Handbook.)
I'm alone now, jobless and living with my mom because of having to quickly leave this relationship when he got controlling and scary. My current situation probably sounds horrific to you, and it would have to me when I had my own place and job and was dating my ex-Entitled Sexist Narcissist Douchebag. But trust me, I am better off without having to hear how old, ugly and stupid I am, multiple times a day.
Disappear from this guy's radar screen. Yesterday.
posted by Rainflower at 7:40 AM on August 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
I have to disagree that entitled misogyny is anywhere near "normal." I just got out of a horribly emotionally abusive relationship with a guy who had attitudes like this. I ignored this red flag because he was WONDERFUL to me...at first.
Your online acquaintance is a woman-hater. Eventually it will be turned against you. That "Old, ugly, and stupid" thing? I got that from him, and so did the woman he dated prior to me. (I think that line and variations of it are in the Entitled Sexist Narcissist Douchebag Handbook.)
I'm alone now, jobless and living with my mom because of having to quickly leave this relationship when he got controlling and scary. My current situation probably sounds horrific to you, and it would have to me when I had my own place and job and was dating my ex-Entitled Sexist Narcissist Douchebag. But trust me, I am better off without having to hear how old, ugly and stupid I am, multiple times a day.
Disappear from this guy's radar screen. Yesterday.
posted by Rainflower at 7:40 AM on August 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
No, no, no, no, no. Run away.
Don't reply to his messages. Don't give him any more of your contact information than he already has.
Retaliating against a rejection, particularly in the way that he did, is a red flag. If it was years and years ago, perhaps he's matured, but you don't want to take that chance. Rejection hurts, yes, but keep the hurt to yourself... even share it with close friends, but don't go after the person who rejected you.
There are many, many other, FAR more suitable candidates for a suitor.
posted by tckma at 7:43 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Don't reply to his messages. Don't give him any more of your contact information than he already has.
Retaliating against a rejection, particularly in the way that he did, is a red flag. If it was years and years ago, perhaps he's matured, but you don't want to take that chance. Rejection hurts, yes, but keep the hurt to yourself... even share it with close friends, but don't go after the person who rejected you.
There are many, many other, FAR more suitable candidates for a suitor.
posted by tckma at 7:43 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Scarcity of available good candidates does not equal accepting crappy candidates.
posted by Lyn Never at 7:46 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 7:46 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
One more thing--read that link from Eyebrows McGee. My ex actually showed that to me as an example of what a "bitch" the woman was for not answering Mike and for putting the email online. My point being, there are guys who think this way. It's a thing. A creepy thing.
posted by Rainflower at 7:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Rainflower at 7:48 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
There are literally millions of men out there. One of the benefits of online dating is that it allows you to filter out some of the creepiest ones before you even meet them in person. Make use of that benefit here. The next guy you chat with will be much better.
posted by Kurichina at 7:59 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Kurichina at 7:59 AM on August 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
My default position is to believe women when they say they've been harassed.
However, I am very curious as to where this information about this man was posted, and by whom, and for what purpose. Did you find it on one of those dontdatehim.com type sites? Someone's personal blog? People in this thread are referring to "public record," but unless it's an official court document, it's not really public record in the sense most people use the term (i.e., a reputable, factual account of events). It sure as hell wasn't posted by HR.
I've known of vindictive *men* who would post something like this about another guy to ruin his rep.
Having said all that: I still think you should step away from this guy -- at the very least, the potential for drama is waaay too high, even if it's simply a matter of him having an embittered, vengeful individual (man or woman) out there posting creepy things about him.
posted by nacho fries at 8:41 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
However, I am very curious as to where this information about this man was posted, and by whom, and for what purpose. Did you find it on one of those dontdatehim.com type sites? Someone's personal blog? People in this thread are referring to "public record," but unless it's an official court document, it's not really public record in the sense most people use the term (i.e., a reputable, factual account of events). It sure as hell wasn't posted by HR.
I've known of vindictive *men* who would post something like this about another guy to ruin his rep.
Having said all that: I still think you should step away from this guy -- at the very least, the potential for drama is waaay too high, even if it's simply a matter of him having an embittered, vengeful individual (man or woman) out there posting creepy things about him.
posted by nacho fries at 8:41 AM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sorry if I'm missing something, but when did this episode with a coworker take place? That would be definitive for me.
Was it last week? Bye!
Was it five years ago? Let's rethink this. He did an immature thing. He's (probably) more mature now. Perhaps he's learned from the episode.
Also bear in mind that there is usually a lot of grey area and room to disagree on things like this. I'm not defending him if he's just an ass who can't deal with rejection, but what I'm saying is he may have been reasonably mistaken about her interest and then he almost certainly lashed out as a result of hurt feelings, humiliation and immaturity. Can you forgive someone for that?
And why is it public record? Is this an article about a criminal case or a lawsuit?
And how do YOU feel about the things that he said? Do YOU think that the "Darwinian" thing was actually a death threat? This comes down to how you can reconcile how you feel about someone Right Now compared to something they did in the Past.
Take all this with a grain of salt considering you haven't met the guy yet. People can be whoever and however they want when everything is still online. If you feel this could be a good thing between you two, bring it up with him and gauge his response. As for his side of the story. Things to look out for would be (1) "That wasn't me! How dare you Google me! You're crazy!" and (2) "She was a stupid lying bitch, SHE wanted ME, they were all out to get me." The A+ answer would be, "Yeah, that was a misunderstanding with a girl I liked. I acted like a jerk and would never be so stupid again."
Finally, as an aside, if anything about what he did or how he responds makes you uncomfortable, you may walk away. You don't owe your time or affection to strangers on the internet and you should not settle for something with warning bells just because you've got trouble finding people to date. (I could really go on about your saying this -- it sounds like you're a little down on yourself but that is NOT a reason to settle for less than 100% of what you deserve). Good luck.
posted by mibo at 8:46 AM on August 7, 2013
Was it last week? Bye!
Was it five years ago? Let's rethink this. He did an immature thing. He's (probably) more mature now. Perhaps he's learned from the episode.
Also bear in mind that there is usually a lot of grey area and room to disagree on things like this. I'm not defending him if he's just an ass who can't deal with rejection, but what I'm saying is he may have been reasonably mistaken about her interest and then he almost certainly lashed out as a result of hurt feelings, humiliation and immaturity. Can you forgive someone for that?
And why is it public record? Is this an article about a criminal case or a lawsuit?
And how do YOU feel about the things that he said? Do YOU think that the "Darwinian" thing was actually a death threat? This comes down to how you can reconcile how you feel about someone Right Now compared to something they did in the Past.
Take all this with a grain of salt considering you haven't met the guy yet. People can be whoever and however they want when everything is still online. If you feel this could be a good thing between you two, bring it up with him and gauge his response. As for his side of the story. Things to look out for would be (1) "That wasn't me! How dare you Google me! You're crazy!" and (2) "She was a stupid lying bitch, SHE wanted ME, they were all out to get me." The A+ answer would be, "Yeah, that was a misunderstanding with a girl I liked. I acted like a jerk and would never be so stupid again."
Finally, as an aside, if anything about what he did or how he responds makes you uncomfortable, you may walk away. You don't owe your time or affection to strangers on the internet and you should not settle for something with warning bells just because you've got trouble finding people to date. (I could really go on about your saying this -- it sounds like you're a little down on yourself but that is NOT a reason to settle for less than 100% of what you deserve). Good luck.
posted by mibo at 8:46 AM on August 7, 2013
If you're still considering dating this yutz, send him an email that says, "I found some disturbing stuff about you on the interwebs. It's making me have second thoughts about dating you."
Don't do this. Ruthless Bunny has good intentions with this suggestion, but don't poke at a snake with a stick. Not safe.
If I were in your shoes, I would run immediately. I have ignored warnings AT MY PERIL. I'm sorry that this guy has a bad past and you have to reject him. It sucks. In your shoes, I wouldn't give it a second thought.
What someone said above is worth repeating. This is a bad thing he's done that ended up on the internet. He might have been ultra unlucky, sure. But more often than not, a person has to do bad things for a while before one of them ends up on the internet.
Also bears repeating: his act was premeditated. It happened over time and was no whim. It is a direct indication of bad character. Also, he kicked a woman in her workplace. That sort of action is an action against a woman's ability to support herself. It's highly aggressive. It's not like being an annoying ass and sending someone too many weepy emails begging for a date. It's not being an internet troll. This is real life aggression.
PS, the most horrible guy I ever met in my life looked like a normal guy. In fact, that was so attractive about him. He was 6'1'', white, blue eyed, had a Ph.D., was my age, had all his hair, had a nice face, had an awesome body, and was normal and inoffensive in basically every way. He could be a character actor boyfriend in a sitcom, but just nerdy and imperfect enough to not be unapproachable. He seemed compassionate and sociable; he was very easy to be around and an active, positive guy. He worked at a freaking children's hospital. The red flags were there about his past, and I ignored them, because I wanted my search to be over. He ended up being a sociopath who stole years of my life and some money, cheated repeatedly, and emotionally abused me to the point where I almost lost my career because I couldn't perform at work. It took me a long time to recover and my recovery is not complete. The warnings were there. After that experience, I will never ignore someone's past again. But that's just my experience.
An attractive guy with a horrible past is like a piece of merchandise with no warranty. You are getting a lot for your money, but it could break at any time and you're out of luck. I wouldn't take that risk with my life, future, and happiness. Choosing an SO is serious business, and I wouldn't choose with someone with red flags unless I really had zero other options and no more time for a search. And maybe not even then.
posted by htid at 9:40 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
Don't do this. Ruthless Bunny has good intentions with this suggestion, but don't poke at a snake with a stick. Not safe.
If I were in your shoes, I would run immediately. I have ignored warnings AT MY PERIL. I'm sorry that this guy has a bad past and you have to reject him. It sucks. In your shoes, I wouldn't give it a second thought.
What someone said above is worth repeating. This is a bad thing he's done that ended up on the internet. He might have been ultra unlucky, sure. But more often than not, a person has to do bad things for a while before one of them ends up on the internet.
Also bears repeating: his act was premeditated. It happened over time and was no whim. It is a direct indication of bad character. Also, he kicked a woman in her workplace. That sort of action is an action against a woman's ability to support herself. It's highly aggressive. It's not like being an annoying ass and sending someone too many weepy emails begging for a date. It's not being an internet troll. This is real life aggression.
PS, the most horrible guy I ever met in my life looked like a normal guy. In fact, that was so attractive about him. He was 6'1'', white, blue eyed, had a Ph.D., was my age, had all his hair, had a nice face, had an awesome body, and was normal and inoffensive in basically every way. He could be a character actor boyfriend in a sitcom, but just nerdy and imperfect enough to not be unapproachable. He seemed compassionate and sociable; he was very easy to be around and an active, positive guy. He worked at a freaking children's hospital. The red flags were there about his past, and I ignored them, because I wanted my search to be over. He ended up being a sociopath who stole years of my life and some money, cheated repeatedly, and emotionally abused me to the point where I almost lost my career because I couldn't perform at work. It took me a long time to recover and my recovery is not complete. The warnings were there. After that experience, I will never ignore someone's past again. But that's just my experience.
An attractive guy with a horrible past is like a piece of merchandise with no warranty. You are getting a lot for your money, but it could break at any time and you're out of luck. I wouldn't take that risk with my life, future, and happiness. Choosing an SO is serious business, and I wouldn't choose with someone with red flags unless I really had zero other options and no more time for a search. And maybe not even then.
posted by htid at 9:40 AM on August 7, 2013 [10 favorites]
Two things i missed in my post since i was falling asleep when i wrote it, bonus tracks if you will:
Having said that, as someone who was subjected to a smear campaign
Me too! And in a fairly relevant way to this story as well. It was really fucking tiresome for a few years because everyone i would meet would very quickly told some awful lie about me(it took me years to even find out what was being said! this was before this type of thing would usually pop up on google, or modern social networking was really A Thing until the tail end). For a few years of that i probably would have been going "Hey, give this guy a chance" But honestly i have a similar thought about that to false rape accusation whiners at this point. If this woman was really willing to come forward and deal with how much she'd be called in to question by anyone in a position of authority, who especially if the boss was an older man would probably be going "Hmm, is this just the histrionics of a scorned woman bla bla bla" and be REALLY skeptical of her then this must have been some Serious Shit.
It may have just been one thing years ago, but enough time has passed with me reflecting on my "Smear campaign by a girl who just really didn't like me and wanted me to be exorcized from an entire group of people" situation that i'm willing to say that type of thing is exceedingly rare, and anyone who is willing to wade through any kind of system to actually lie and smear someone shouldn't even really be a consideration. Besides, if it was a lie why wouldn't there be some blog post by him to pop up on google saying "This fucking person is trying to ruin my name on the internet, here's my side of the story". Or possibly even a defamation suit if he had a decent job and has some cash.
You get what i'm saying here? "These accusations could be false" is a fleetingly small consideration, especially when you have a huge pool of people to choose from. Maybe he is awesome, maybe he'll meet someone who never sees this or doesn't see it for years and live happily ever after. Now that you know though, why tiptoe around this and be really "careful" in the early stages in case he is crazy?
Which segways in to my second point. I was single for over a year in the middle of college, and didn't even have any real prospects or casual stuff flying around that didn't pop up the "bad egg, abort!" detector. I'm a good looking musician dude who wasn't living on campus at school, but had an awesome gigantic apartment in a great location. I was constantly going out and having interesting adventures. And playing lots of shows and constantly meeting new people. And despite that, nope. I thought the entire deck was stacked in my favor but i just had a huge "dry spell" where the stars just weren't aligned. I went on more than a couple dates or even started kinda perpetually hanging out with seriously red flag inducing kinda sketch people because "Eh, they're cute and when was the last time i...". The kind of people who i'd hear stuff like this about, or who dropped that oh by the way i'm actually dating someone... on the third "date" type thing we'd done, when we were sitting in a meadow kinda area drinking wine and having a picnic. Those kinds of people.
I did learn something important, which is just chill and wait. Do not settle for someone. I've done that before too and that's how you end up with "Oh yea, that was the year i dated that shitty person for six months and then XYZ crazy stuff happened. UGH". Being single and having a dry spell searching for people is infinitely better than dealing with some asshat.
I'll also note that the end of that, when i had pretty much completely given up and stop giving a fuck to the point that i'd just say bizarre things to people instead of trying to flirt since i was so burned out was when i actually met someone worthwhile. Sometimes the "ugh" periods really do go on for too long, and i understand exactly where you are standing at the supermarket and the entire shelf seems to be empty besides expired hamburger helper... But really, considering people just because they're there is a bad idea.
posted by emptythought at 9:57 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Having said that, as someone who was subjected to a smear campaign
Me too! And in a fairly relevant way to this story as well. It was really fucking tiresome for a few years because everyone i would meet would very quickly told some awful lie about me(it took me years to even find out what was being said! this was before this type of thing would usually pop up on google, or modern social networking was really A Thing until the tail end). For a few years of that i probably would have been going "Hey, give this guy a chance" But honestly i have a similar thought about that to false rape accusation whiners at this point. If this woman was really willing to come forward and deal with how much she'd be called in to question by anyone in a position of authority, who especially if the boss was an older man would probably be going "Hmm, is this just the histrionics of a scorned woman bla bla bla" and be REALLY skeptical of her then this must have been some Serious Shit.
It may have just been one thing years ago, but enough time has passed with me reflecting on my "Smear campaign by a girl who just really didn't like me and wanted me to be exorcized from an entire group of people" situation that i'm willing to say that type of thing is exceedingly rare, and anyone who is willing to wade through any kind of system to actually lie and smear someone shouldn't even really be a consideration. Besides, if it was a lie why wouldn't there be some blog post by him to pop up on google saying "This fucking person is trying to ruin my name on the internet, here's my side of the story". Or possibly even a defamation suit if he had a decent job and has some cash.
You get what i'm saying here? "These accusations could be false" is a fleetingly small consideration, especially when you have a huge pool of people to choose from. Maybe he is awesome, maybe he'll meet someone who never sees this or doesn't see it for years and live happily ever after. Now that you know though, why tiptoe around this and be really "careful" in the early stages in case he is crazy?
Which segways in to my second point. I was single for over a year in the middle of college, and didn't even have any real prospects or casual stuff flying around that didn't pop up the "bad egg, abort!" detector. I'm a good looking musician dude who wasn't living on campus at school, but had an awesome gigantic apartment in a great location. I was constantly going out and having interesting adventures. And playing lots of shows and constantly meeting new people. And despite that, nope. I thought the entire deck was stacked in my favor but i just had a huge "dry spell" where the stars just weren't aligned. I went on more than a couple dates or even started kinda perpetually hanging out with seriously red flag inducing kinda sketch people because "Eh, they're cute and when was the last time i...". The kind of people who i'd hear stuff like this about, or who dropped that oh by the way i'm actually dating someone... on the third "date" type thing we'd done, when we were sitting in a meadow kinda area drinking wine and having a picnic. Those kinds of people.
I did learn something important, which is just chill and wait. Do not settle for someone. I've done that before too and that's how you end up with "Oh yea, that was the year i dated that shitty person for six months and then XYZ crazy stuff happened. UGH". Being single and having a dry spell searching for people is infinitely better than dealing with some asshat.
I'll also note that the end of that, when i had pretty much completely given up and stop giving a fuck to the point that i'd just say bizarre things to people instead of trying to flirt since i was so burned out was when i actually met someone worthwhile. Sometimes the "ugh" periods really do go on for too long, and i understand exactly where you are standing at the supermarket and the entire shelf seems to be empty besides expired hamburger helper... But really, considering people just because they're there is a bad idea.
posted by emptythought at 9:57 AM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
First, I'm not sure why you're running a background check for someone you're dating.
How about because she's a single woman attempting to keep herself safe and not get into the exact situation that numerous people here are warning her about?
As a woman who has done online dating, I know exactly why you're running a background check for someone you're considering dating. (Read the question, people - she hasn't even met him yet).
Thank you for validating the OP in her prudent action.
Stop interacting with him. But be prepared for escalation and nasty emails on his part.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:30 PM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
How about because she's a single woman attempting to keep herself safe and not get into the exact situation that numerous people here are warning her about?
As a woman who has done online dating, I know exactly why you're running a background check for someone you're considering dating. (Read the question, people - she hasn't even met him yet).
Thank you for validating the OP in her prudent action.
Stop interacting with him. But be prepared for escalation and nasty emails on his part.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:30 PM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
I was going to say "carefully consider the source" as well. It wouldn't be the company website, because what company would publish stuff like that? Or is it an actual public record like a court document? That's the only way you can be certain of it.
Yes, I have been smeared but I also went to some lengths to make sure the defamatory documents were removed. If I *ever* find out that any false statement has been published I will sue, and I know that I will win (having taken advice already). I wonder what this guy's response was, given that he most likely knows this is being said about him.
I unfortunately agree that this kind of behaviour - assuming it was as described, and emptythought explains from experience why we might as well take it at face value - is considered "normal" by a lot of people, and it is also "normal" for a lot of people to be more or less abusive to one another in most of their relationships. Normal in the sense of commonplace and unremarkable, not in the sense of good or healthy.
But then it goes way beyond "normal" in the focussed obsessiveness over many months. Now maybe his email isn't so unreasonable in that maybe she really was rude to him over a period of months, but that would explain why he asked her about it. Not why he told her she was ugly etc. Even if it were harmless, that kind of reaction is so thoroughly mean-spirited and infantile that anyone capable of recognizing it as such - anyone not at his level, that is, be it ever so "normal" - should not bother dating him.
And then that Darwin Awards joke.... Yes, it does read like a threat. If he honestly thought it was just a joke then, well, he can't have thought that because he must have been lying to himself about how hostile it was. And okay, fine, let's say it really was meant as a joke albeit a bitter one, but one without true malicious intent. So what? If you joke about smuggling coke in an airport you're going to get cavity searched and you have only yourself to blame. If you joke about killing someone who looks remarkably like your coworker who turned you down for a date twice and with whom you have been feuding ever since and who you just confronted about it with a barrage of insults... Well... You're going to get fired, and if anyone finds out about it, you're going to be dateless as well as jobless. Sorry.
And that last part, yeah, that is beyond what is "normal" to anyone, that should be recognizable as "unsub on an episode of Criminal Minds" behaviour to, probably, most people.
At best, you are likely to have a dismally unenjoyable relationship with a dickish guy who is mean to you in ways that never quite add up to being outright abusive. Yeah, you should pay attention to those who are warning of dire outcomes, because those are quite likely too. But even if it's not that bad, it's not going to be fun either.
posted by tel3path at 1:48 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yes, I have been smeared but I also went to some lengths to make sure the defamatory documents were removed. If I *ever* find out that any false statement has been published I will sue, and I know that I will win (having taken advice already). I wonder what this guy's response was, given that he most likely knows this is being said about him.
I unfortunately agree that this kind of behaviour - assuming it was as described, and emptythought explains from experience why we might as well take it at face value - is considered "normal" by a lot of people, and it is also "normal" for a lot of people to be more or less abusive to one another in most of their relationships. Normal in the sense of commonplace and unremarkable, not in the sense of good or healthy.
But then it goes way beyond "normal" in the focussed obsessiveness over many months. Now maybe his email isn't so unreasonable in that maybe she really was rude to him over a period of months, but that would explain why he asked her about it. Not why he told her she was ugly etc. Even if it were harmless, that kind of reaction is so thoroughly mean-spirited and infantile that anyone capable of recognizing it as such - anyone not at his level, that is, be it ever so "normal" - should not bother dating him.
And then that Darwin Awards joke.... Yes, it does read like a threat. If he honestly thought it was just a joke then, well, he can't have thought that because he must have been lying to himself about how hostile it was. And okay, fine, let's say it really was meant as a joke albeit a bitter one, but one without true malicious intent. So what? If you joke about smuggling coke in an airport you're going to get cavity searched and you have only yourself to blame. If you joke about killing someone who looks remarkably like your coworker who turned you down for a date twice and with whom you have been feuding ever since and who you just confronted about it with a barrage of insults... Well... You're going to get fired, and if anyone finds out about it, you're going to be dateless as well as jobless. Sorry.
And that last part, yeah, that is beyond what is "normal" to anyone, that should be recognizable as "unsub on an episode of Criminal Minds" behaviour to, probably, most people.
At best, you are likely to have a dismally unenjoyable relationship with a dickish guy who is mean to you in ways that never quite add up to being outright abusive. Yeah, you should pay attention to those who are warning of dire outcomes, because those are quite likely too. But even if it's not that bad, it's not going to be fun either.
posted by tel3path at 1:48 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Grownups will quite happily change strategies but grownups don't really change who they are. From your background check you not only know quite a bit about some really shitty strategies this dude has used in the past, but you also know quite a bit about who he is and it is not at all flattering.
If something about someone else's behavior just feels wrong to you like it did here, it probably should, and investigating why will lead you to the wisdom behind why it felt like something vaguely wrong and not something known. This dude's behavior seemed wrong to you, and you've gotten a lot of excellent advice to this question from folks who have followed similar threads of feelings of wrongness before. Really I hope we can convince you to not only disappear, but also to trust your instincts and then think through them.
Women in particular are generally socialized to not trust their instincts, to devalue them, and to consider them irrational. This only serves one purpose, to make women more vulnerable and manipulate-able.
posted by Blasdelb at 1:56 PM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
You know that he has not taken rejection well, projecting his insecurity on the person rejecting him, and this is not likely to be any different with you.Really though, I am about to share with you the root of all relationship wisdom,
You know that he is vindictive and happy to lash out at people who have not even wronged him in the slightest beyond disrupting his unjustified feelings of entitlement to the attentions of women just like you but with more protecting her.
You know he is not capable of the super basic critical thinking necessary to value his job over his bullshit, and you know this is not likely to improve.
You know that he believes that the women around him are responsible for his attraction to them and that he is not responsible for his own feelings, this is also not likely to have changed.
If something about someone else's behavior just feels wrong to you like it did here, it probably should, and investigating why will lead you to the wisdom behind why it felt like something vaguely wrong and not something known. This dude's behavior seemed wrong to you, and you've gotten a lot of excellent advice to this question from folks who have followed similar threads of feelings of wrongness before. Really I hope we can convince you to not only disappear, but also to trust your instincts and then think through them.
Women in particular are generally socialized to not trust their instincts, to devalue them, and to consider them irrational. This only serves one purpose, to make women more vulnerable and manipulate-able.
posted by Blasdelb at 1:56 PM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
How do you know what you find through your Google search was true? This seems like very odd information to be available on public websites. What sort of pages had this information? I think it is important to consider the source. This just seems odd because it is so rare for a business's personnel decision to be published this way.
I've had to deal with Internet defamation cases a time or two. It is said to say, but in the case of my practice I have found that not all information on the Internet is accurate and true.
posted by Tanizaki at 2:53 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
I've had to deal with Internet defamation cases a time or two. It is said to say, but in the case of my practice I have found that not all information on the Internet is accurate and true.
posted by Tanizaki at 2:53 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
This just seems odd because it is so rare for a business's personnel decision to be published this way.
Tor's firing of James Frenkel was public.
This is a guy she hasn't even met yet. They do not have a relationship. There is literally nothing to lose for her here - except the possibility of dating a guy who actually did do all that stuff. Someone else is more than welcome to take a risk on him, but it doesn't have to be the OP. She's not his wife, girlfriend, mom, sister, or roommate. Or co-worker. The Truth may well be out there, but in this particular case, it doesn't matter; she doesn't owe him anything.
posted by rtha at 3:11 PM on August 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
Tor's firing of James Frenkel was public.
This is a guy she hasn't even met yet. They do not have a relationship. There is literally nothing to lose for her here - except the possibility of dating a guy who actually did do all that stuff. Someone else is more than welcome to take a risk on him, but it doesn't have to be the OP. She's not his wife, girlfriend, mom, sister, or roommate. Or co-worker. The Truth may well be out there, but in this particular case, it doesn't matter; she doesn't owe him anything.
posted by rtha at 3:11 PM on August 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
Tor's firing of James Frenkel was public.
Please forgive the second comment but I must have been unclear in my last comment. I said it was rare, not that it very happened. We all hear when a prominent employee of a prominent company gets hired or fired. We heard when Tor fired Frankel and Apple fired Steve Jobs. We don't hear when Tor or Apple fires a cubicle worker or some middle manager.
OP, you can go either way, but I think it is worth bearing in mind whether you want to give more weight to allegations (and that is all they are based on your question) you read on the internet than you would to your personal experience with this person. I know how I would prefer others to judge me but perhaps I am a fool in this regard.
posted by Tanizaki at 4:37 PM on August 7, 2013
Please forgive the second comment but I must have been unclear in my last comment. I said it was rare, not that it very happened. We all hear when a prominent employee of a prominent company gets hired or fired. We heard when Tor fired Frankel and Apple fired Steve Jobs. We don't hear when Tor or Apple fires a cubicle worker or some middle manager.
OP, you can go either way, but I think it is worth bearing in mind whether you want to give more weight to allegations (and that is all they are based on your question) you read on the internet than you would to your personal experience with this person. I know how I would prefer others to judge me but perhaps I am a fool in this regard.
posted by Tanizaki at 4:37 PM on August 7, 2013
Response by poster: How do you know what you find through your Google search was true?
He sued, so I actually found the information in court documents that were available online.
i'm not even sure what "dying in a darwinian way" means exactly
Sorry for not explaining that. Yes, it refers to the Darwin Awards where someone dies as a result of their own weird or random action. I thought it was significant to mention because that seemed like less of a threat than linking an article where someone had been stalked or murdered, something like that.
Thank you all for your answers. You have pretty well convinced me to stay away, which is what I was hoping for.
posted by anonymousme at 4:51 PM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
He sued, so I actually found the information in court documents that were available online.
i'm not even sure what "dying in a darwinian way" means exactly
Sorry for not explaining that. Yes, it refers to the Darwin Awards where someone dies as a result of their own weird or random action. I thought it was significant to mention because that seemed like less of a threat than linking an article where someone had been stalked or murdered, something like that.
Thank you all for your answers. You have pretty well convinced me to stay away, which is what I was hoping for.
posted by anonymousme at 4:51 PM on August 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: And not that it matters in this point, but when he sued he wasn't denying any of the things she said he had done. It all happened in writing anyway so there wasn't much to deny. He was only suing because he didn't think the consequences were appropriate.
posted by anonymousme at 4:53 PM on August 7, 2013
posted by anonymousme at 4:53 PM on August 7, 2013
So yeah, run. Or don't reply to his email. He admitted the acts, and didn't like getting caught. Don't let him catch you.
posted by rtha at 5:17 PM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by rtha at 5:17 PM on August 7, 2013 [4 favorites]
The fact that he SUED after acting like such a despicable human being just makes it worse. Stay away.
posted by keep it under cover at 6:19 PM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by keep it under cover at 6:19 PM on August 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
Oh God, yes, if he admitted to doing these things than run away now! Do not explain, do not engage in debate, just cut off all contact. A relationship with him has the very real potential of turning into a kind of hell you can't even begin to imagine right now.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 6:26 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 6:26 PM on August 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
You know he is not capable of the super basic critical thinking necessary to value his job over his bullshit, and you know this is not likely to improve.
I just wanted to add that I didn't even parse this until now. It's literally like, my brain went ERROR VALUE EQUAL TO OR LESS THAN ZERO DUMPING MEMORY.
Even the worst abusive assholes I know, have met, have encountered, have brushed past... Whatever were generally able to like, operate their personal lives. Even the moocher type ones who perpetually lived in some woman's or their friends apartment to avoid paying for their lives were at least competent at leeching and only ever testing the fence. This guy is like an Olympic athlete of failure.
I'm actually genuinely impressed, like holy shit. You dodged a bullet from the man with the golden gun here.
He sounds like two of the most violently crazy people I've ever known, for what it's worth. That genuine disregard for even self preservation or maintaining your own position in life in the pursuit of fulfillment of your weird angry impulses. It's like some super low level failure of like, basic higher level thinking. Like prefrontal cortex stuff that kicks in for most people in their mid-late teens.
Sorry if this isn't like directly answering the question, but just like Jesus. It was really so bad that I could only take a couple elements of it in at first.
posted by emptythought at 6:58 PM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
I just wanted to add that I didn't even parse this until now. It's literally like, my brain went ERROR VALUE EQUAL TO OR LESS THAN ZERO DUMPING MEMORY.
Even the worst abusive assholes I know, have met, have encountered, have brushed past... Whatever were generally able to like, operate their personal lives. Even the moocher type ones who perpetually lived in some woman's or their friends apartment to avoid paying for their lives were at least competent at leeching and only ever testing the fence. This guy is like an Olympic athlete of failure.
I'm actually genuinely impressed, like holy shit. You dodged a bullet from the man with the golden gun here.
He sounds like two of the most violently crazy people I've ever known, for what it's worth. That genuine disregard for even self preservation or maintaining your own position in life in the pursuit of fulfillment of your weird angry impulses. It's like some super low level failure of like, basic higher level thinking. Like prefrontal cortex stuff that kicks in for most people in their mid-late teens.
Sorry if this isn't like directly answering the question, but just like Jesus. It was really so bad that I could only take a couple elements of it in at first.
posted by emptythought at 6:58 PM on August 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Yeah, after your update just ignore everything I said before and DTMFA. Suing your employer because *you* were the jerk is kinda slimy.
posted by mibo at 7:13 PM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by mibo at 7:13 PM on August 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
Reading the whole story like that I know I sound crazy to be considering dating him.
"Some of us learn from other people's mistakes and the rest of us have to be other people."
posted by xm at 9:46 AM on August 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Some of us learn from other people's mistakes and the rest of us have to be other people."
posted by xm at 9:46 AM on August 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
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this fella treated a coworker veryvery crudely and--i'm sorry to be the bearer of bad cliches--but actions do speak louder than words.
posted by raihan_ at 1:40 AM on August 7, 2013 [8 favorites]