How do we include first time parents who've become flakey?
August 5, 2013 8:07 PM Subscribe
A couple in our circle of friends had a child two year ago. Please help me navigate the line between new parent absentmindedness and bad friends.
They’re the first to have a child in our circle of late 20’s- mid30somethigns. When their son was first born everyone sent them invitations to various events and we accepted declines graciously and were excited to see then when they could make it. In the past year however, things seem to have taken a turn and many of us are feeling frustrated and confused.
Basically the situation will unfold like this: They will express desire to do X with us. We will all work together to make X happen. Multiple times this has included rescheduling according to their wishes because they really want to attend! The day of X approaches and they will call within hours of the event and cancel for all sorts of reasons.
The other alternative is that they will lament, “I’d really like to do this!” so accommodations (rides scheduled, days off requested, times changed) will be made to include them, and they will also cancel at the last minute.
They did this for the umpteenth time this weekend and everyone is at their wits end. No one expects to be their number one priority anymore, but when we're making them our priority and they cancel at the last second, it is becoming a problem.
This couple is also very sensitive, but fun to be around when they do show, and kind, and as a group of child-free folk, we really aren’t sure if this is just normal behavior for new parents.
Obviously we need to get out of the cycle of accommodating them and do our own thing, but I’d like to not alienate them, so they come running here to ask why all of their friends left them after they had a kid.
How do we find a balance? Do I express my concerns or do we just stop trying?
They’re the first to have a child in our circle of late 20’s- mid30somethigns. When their son was first born everyone sent them invitations to various events and we accepted declines graciously and were excited to see then when they could make it. In the past year however, things seem to have taken a turn and many of us are feeling frustrated and confused.
Basically the situation will unfold like this: They will express desire to do X with us. We will all work together to make X happen. Multiple times this has included rescheduling according to their wishes because they really want to attend! The day of X approaches and they will call within hours of the event and cancel for all sorts of reasons.
The other alternative is that they will lament, “I’d really like to do this!” so accommodations (rides scheduled, days off requested, times changed) will be made to include them, and they will also cancel at the last minute.
They did this for the umpteenth time this weekend and everyone is at their wits end. No one expects to be their number one priority anymore, but when we're making them our priority and they cancel at the last second, it is becoming a problem.
This couple is also very sensitive, but fun to be around when they do show, and kind, and as a group of child-free folk, we really aren’t sure if this is just normal behavior for new parents.
Obviously we need to get out of the cycle of accommodating them and do our own thing, but I’d like to not alienate them, so they come running here to ask why all of their friends left them after they had a kid.
How do we find a balance? Do I express my concerns or do we just stop trying?
I would express your concerns. As a child-free friend of some couples with children, this is not standard. I mean, there will always be the risk of a couple of cancellations due to sick children or loss of a babysitter, but cancellations should not be outweighing attendances.
The reason you should express your concerns is that it's not evident from your question that the couple realizes the extent to which you're accommodating them in putting the events together. Telling them as well as asking if they could let you know if they need to cancel as soon as they find out will hopefully make them realize they need to be firmer in their acceptances.
If after this talk they continue this pattern of cancelling, I'd stop accommodating such that I'd be happy if they showed up if the already arranged fun times suited them but if not, hey, the party goes on without sore feelings.
posted by vegartanipla at 8:13 PM on August 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
The reason you should express your concerns is that it's not evident from your question that the couple realizes the extent to which you're accommodating them in putting the events together. Telling them as well as asking if they could let you know if they need to cancel as soon as they find out will hopefully make them realize they need to be firmer in their acceptances.
If after this talk they continue this pattern of cancelling, I'd stop accommodating such that I'd be happy if they showed up if the already arranged fun times suited them but if not, hey, the party goes on without sore feelings.
posted by vegartanipla at 8:13 PM on August 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
"I'd really like to do this!"
"It's a bummer you guys can't make it on the stated date and time. We'll have to get together soon! Let us know we you're free and we can get dinner."
Stop playing the game. Stop accommodating.
posted by whoaali at 8:18 PM on August 5, 2013 [81 favorites]
"It's a bummer you guys can't make it on the stated date and time. We'll have to get together soon! Let us know we you're free and we can get dinner."
Stop playing the game. Stop accommodating.
posted by whoaali at 8:18 PM on August 5, 2013 [81 favorites]
Father of two pretty young kids. This is odd behavior, and in my group of friends, you'd get called out on it. Once or twice is no big deal--you'd be surprised at the thought process once you have kids, as some of the excuses you make simply don't register with the childless--but they sound like they're repeatedly flaking. Only you can best answer how to bring it up, but I'd suggest (1) inviting them, (2) not making Herculean efforts to reschedule things, and (3) simply planning on them not coming in the future and be happy when they do.
Or just convince all your friends to have kids! ;)
posted by resurrexit at 8:19 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Or just convince all your friends to have kids! ;)
posted by resurrexit at 8:19 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
As a child-free person with a few parent friends, what we did was to just stop accommodating them. In other words, if event X is going on at Y time, and they say that they can't make it, we all say that we're sorry to hear that and maybe next time. That's it. End of story.
Being a parent looks like it's really freaking hard, which is exactly why I chose not to do it. Now, I'll try to help parents when and where I can, but there has to be a limit. Your friends have used up all their accommodation passes, in my opinion.
tl;dr: invite but don't accommodate, at least until time and circumstance shows them to be in a position where they can afford to be more reliable.
posted by Shouraku at 8:24 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Being a parent looks like it's really freaking hard, which is exactly why I chose not to do it. Now, I'll try to help parents when and where I can, but there has to be a limit. Your friends have used up all their accommodation passes, in my opinion.
tl;dr: invite but don't accommodate, at least until time and circumstance shows them to be in a position where they can afford to be more reliable.
posted by Shouraku at 8:24 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
After two years, no. This is not normal.
You - as a social group - have been dumped. Mom and Dad are busy their kid and the other parents and instead of just telling you guys that their lives have changed, they keep accepting invitations to events they are no longer interested in attending. And they're being extreme dicks about it if they specifically ask you to change anything so they can be there and then cancel. If it only happened once or twice, hey that's life. Three or more times and they're just being rude.
posted by jaimystery at 8:27 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
You - as a social group - have been dumped. Mom and Dad are busy their kid and the other parents and instead of just telling you guys that their lives have changed, they keep accepting invitations to events they are no longer interested in attending. And they're being extreme dicks about it if they specifically ask you to change anything so they can be there and then cancel. If it only happened once or twice, hey that's life. Three or more times and they're just being rude.
posted by jaimystery at 8:27 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Are they aware that everyone is scheduling on eggshells to make it easier for them to be there? Is this all going on behind the scenes, and all they know is that, magically, whatever time works for them is ALWAYS the time that gets picked? Maybe they don't know they're putting you out.
My impulse would be to stop scheduling stuff around them. If they can make it, great! If not, it's probably not the end of the world.
posted by Sara C. at 8:40 PM on August 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
My impulse would be to stop scheduling stuff around them. If they can make it, great! If not, it's probably not the end of the world.
posted by Sara C. at 8:40 PM on August 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
They can make time. They just aren't. It is harsh and I am sorry, but... Move on because you've been friend dumped.
You can't force someone to make time for you. And you shouldn't have to.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:44 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
You can't force someone to make time for you. And you shouldn't have to.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:44 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
My experience with my friends with kids is that when they have one kid things don't seem to change that much. They can often join into existing plans and yeah, maybe not both of them - one might have to stay home with sick kid every so often - but in general it works. So I don't think it necessarily needs to be something you need to accommodate so much. And if they wanted to see people then they could also plan too, right? I wonder if part of it that they want to join into plans and events that seem to be "like the old days" (go see a band that goes on stage at 1am or stay out all day hiking in a remote area) but when it comes right down to it its just too daunting to deal with the aftermath and they haven't accepted that their lives have changed and if they want to see you all then those kinds of plans will not be on the table for them? They could host dinner at their place or a BBQ or something if they really wanted to see their friends.
The big difference seemed to be when people had two kids. I'm not sure why but as soon as they have two you basically never see them again and they're only friends with other people with kids.
posted by marylynn at 8:44 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
The big difference seemed to be when people had two kids. I'm not sure why but as soon as they have two you basically never see them again and they're only friends with other people with kids.
posted by marylynn at 8:44 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, no. Children change your life. We've got two. But it's not a chronic, terminal, contagious disease. People with kids make it to work, church, dinner, concerts, etc. on a regular basis. There is hope for people with kids...
They're playing some flaky game here. Don't schedule around them. If it gets (or keeps being) awkward to invite them, stop inviting them.
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:46 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
They're playing some flaky game here. Don't schedule around them. If it gets (or keeps being) awkward to invite them, stop inviting them.
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:46 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
My yeah no was directed at their behavior, not marylynn...
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:46 PM on August 5, 2013
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:46 PM on August 5, 2013
My sister in law and brother are kind of like this. I think it's generally because that when you have kids, everything just seems so hard and I guess that's understandable.
However, it's just rude to get you to plan things for them, and they bail. Especially if they expressed the desire to do said thing.
Just plan things whenever-- not with them in mind-- and invite them. If they can come, great, if not, oh well.
If they express desire to do something in particular, then just let THEM plan the things they really wanna do. I'd be like, 'sure, if you wanna do x, you should organize that/let us know when a good time is' so that they hit the fallout of people not coming and such. It might seem harsh, but, if they have to plan it and invite everybody, they're probably less likely to bail.
It's hard to say if you've been friend-dumped, honestly. Thing is, they're liable to just be more flaky now. I agree that kids aren't the end all and be all, but some people just get... weird after kids. Really weird.
So if you still wanna be friends just be polite and friendly, don't take the flakiness personally, and eventually things should stabilize enough that they will be able to make events when the kid is a little older and they feel they can leave him with someone comfortably, or such. I mean, my nephew is two, and really clingy-- so my SIL and brother have a hard time going out.
posted by Dimes at 8:55 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
However, it's just rude to get you to plan things for them, and they bail. Especially if they expressed the desire to do said thing.
Just plan things whenever-- not with them in mind-- and invite them. If they can come, great, if not, oh well.
If they express desire to do something in particular, then just let THEM plan the things they really wanna do. I'd be like, 'sure, if you wanna do x, you should organize that/let us know when a good time is' so that they hit the fallout of people not coming and such. It might seem harsh, but, if they have to plan it and invite everybody, they're probably less likely to bail.
It's hard to say if you've been friend-dumped, honestly. Thing is, they're liable to just be more flaky now. I agree that kids aren't the end all and be all, but some people just get... weird after kids. Really weird.
So if you still wanna be friends just be polite and friendly, don't take the flakiness personally, and eventually things should stabilize enough that they will be able to make events when the kid is a little older and they feel they can leave him with someone comfortably, or such. I mean, my nephew is two, and really clingy-- so my SIL and brother have a hard time going out.
posted by Dimes at 8:55 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
If they have bailed on carefully rescheduled-to-accommodate-them plans more than three times then you should no longer accommodate them. The fact that it has been multiple times over the past two years is indicative that you should have stopped bothering long ago.
posted by elizardbits at 8:58 PM on August 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 8:58 PM on August 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
Dimes has it right: Make plans. Invite them. If they attend, great. If not, oh well. Don't schedule around them anymore.
posted by Justinian at 9:07 PM on August 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 9:07 PM on August 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
Is it possible that they're pretty sure they're not going to be able to make it to whatever -- for whatever reason -- but that they're also the sort who hate telling people no (as sensitive people sometimes are), so they do this whole dramatic, "oh, we'd LOVE TO" as a way to ease the blow of the rejection, and then you guys take them as being sincere (fairly, given your history) and move stuff around, and then they're stuck because they can't turn around once you start offering to resked and say, "oh, we just said that because we felt like dicks turning you down AGAIN but we were never actually coming to this thing" so they then DO try to make it work and they just can't and then the flaking is exponentially worse than it would have been if they were just honest with you? Like, subconsciously they feel like this is a way to keep the friendship going -- expressing interest even if they can't follow through on it? What I'm saying is, I don't know if I think this is a friend-dumping. I think this is extreme flakiness married to good intentions. Were they flaky before the baby?
All that is somewhat immaterial, though. You guys should make plans, invite them, and if they can't make it, that's just too bad. However, as a child-free person who has friends with kids, if I want to see my friends, honestly, I just go to their house. We get take out and drink beer and watch the kids run around. It's just much, much easier for everyone. And sometimes I see them at events and sometimes I don't, but I'm still in their lives and vice versa.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 9:20 PM on August 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
All that is somewhat immaterial, though. You guys should make plans, invite them, and if they can't make it, that's just too bad. However, as a child-free person who has friends with kids, if I want to see my friends, honestly, I just go to their house. We get take out and drink beer and watch the kids run around. It's just much, much easier for everyone. And sometimes I see them at events and sometimes I don't, but I'm still in their lives and vice versa.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 9:20 PM on August 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
I completely agree that you should simply make plans and invite them rather than go out of your way to accommodate them. If they are flaking out on you this often, it is up to them to make themselves more accommodating to the rest of the group.
However.
This The day of X approaches and they will call within hours of the event and cancel for all sorts of reasons makes me want to know what some of those reasons are, because they could be dealing with a bigger issue than any of the childfree couples are aware of.
For example, we couldn't get a sitter, one of us isn't feeling well, it's just a bad time right now, Baby X was up all night, we're not up to it all might sound like all sorts of reasons, but together could equal up to just one significant Somrthing.
Baby X might not be neurotypical and/or be on the autism spectrum (because this would be the time when delays in speech and other milestones would start to become apparent), making it hard to leave Baby X with a sitter. Mom, Dad or Baby X could have a chronic health issue, too. This would wear them out, and could easily lead to frequent cancellations. Mom could be pregnant again and having morning sickness a lot(!). Maybe their budget is really tight after having Baby X and they just couldn't afford dinner and a sitter after all.
So, yes, stop accommodating them, but maybe first check in with them, because you are their friends and care about them. They should not feel offended if you mention that since they've had to cancel a lot lately, you were just wondering if everything is okay.
posted by misha at 10:06 PM on August 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
However.
This The day of X approaches and they will call within hours of the event and cancel for all sorts of reasons makes me want to know what some of those reasons are, because they could be dealing with a bigger issue than any of the childfree couples are aware of.
For example, we couldn't get a sitter, one of us isn't feeling well, it's just a bad time right now, Baby X was up all night, we're not up to it all might sound like all sorts of reasons, but together could equal up to just one significant Somrthing.
Baby X might not be neurotypical and/or be on the autism spectrum (because this would be the time when delays in speech and other milestones would start to become apparent), making it hard to leave Baby X with a sitter. Mom, Dad or Baby X could have a chronic health issue, too. This would wear them out, and could easily lead to frequent cancellations. Mom could be pregnant again and having morning sickness a lot(!). Maybe their budget is really tight after having Baby X and they just couldn't afford dinner and a sitter after all.
So, yes, stop accommodating them, but maybe first check in with them, because you are their friends and care about them. They should not feel offended if you mention that since they've had to cancel a lot lately, you were just wondering if everything is okay.
posted by misha at 10:06 PM on August 5, 2013 [10 favorites]
I had these very friends, who acted exactly like this just prior to having their kid and after their kids arrived. In their case it was a combination of ordinary flakiness with an inability to say "No" for fear of confrontations they imagined would ensue. It was easier for them to say "Sure, we'll be there!" and then flake out at the last minute than to decline an invitation. And it wasn't that they were dumping us for another group of friends (they literally didn't have any others!).
In the end, my group of friends simply routed around them. Invitations were still made to this couple because we really enjoyed their company on the very rare occasion they showed! But if they didn't make an event, it became the expected result and all systems were normal.
We ended up not amending our plans if they made suggestions, and were quite explicit about why. "Sorry, [Couple], but the last three times we've invited you two, you skipped out literally hours prior to the event. We're not going to change this set of plans for your sake, because you don't have a very good track record. We'd love to see you there, though!"
So, just route around this couple. Continue to invite them (if you enjoy their company), expect them not to arrive, and don't allow firm plans to be amended by flakey and unreliable individuals.
posted by barnacles at 10:45 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
In the end, my group of friends simply routed around them. Invitations were still made to this couple because we really enjoyed their company on the very rare occasion they showed! But if they didn't make an event, it became the expected result and all systems were normal.
We ended up not amending our plans if they made suggestions, and were quite explicit about why. "Sorry, [Couple], but the last three times we've invited you two, you skipped out literally hours prior to the event. We're not going to change this set of plans for your sake, because you don't have a very good track record. We'd love to see you there, though!"
So, just route around this couple. Continue to invite them (if you enjoy their company), expect them not to arrive, and don't allow firm plans to be amended by flakey and unreliable individuals.
posted by barnacles at 10:45 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
They should not feel offended if you mention that since they've had to cancel a lot lately, you were just wondering if everything is okay.
This. This is a great way to talk to them about this if you want to be a friend. But still, as other has said, don't go out of your way to make special plans with them. I really think that maybe there is something going on that may be making these meetups especially difficult for them. But that doesn't mean that you need to go all out to accommodate them when they maybe, actually, cannot be accommodated.
I have a number of moms that I do things with. One or two of them are just super flaky. Like, holding up the easter egg hunt because she said she'd for sure be there but after 30 minutes, the kids couldn't be held back further. Her explanation: I got a phone call from an old friend! Like, okay, that's so special for you. And, she does that stuff all the time so I don't count on her to be there or make special plans with her that I would be disappointed if they didn't work out.
On the other hand, being a new parent can be more challenging than you think. I said "no" or bowed out of events that I ordinarily would have been excited to attend more than I thought I would as a new parent. Sometimes the kid is sick or your partner can't be there or your kid kept you up all night or your kid and partner are just fine but it's your first time to yourself in a week and you just don't want to go to a dark bar and try to sound interesting to your old friends. Sometimes that happens. It doesn't mean you don't like them anymore.
On the third hand, I am finding it delightful that over two years in to my kids life, I am finding more energy and being better able to go out and enjoy myself like a normal person and not just an exhausted mom. So they may come out of the fog soon. Hard to say.
posted by amanda at 11:10 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
This. This is a great way to talk to them about this if you want to be a friend. But still, as other has said, don't go out of your way to make special plans with them. I really think that maybe there is something going on that may be making these meetups especially difficult for them. But that doesn't mean that you need to go all out to accommodate them when they maybe, actually, cannot be accommodated.
I have a number of moms that I do things with. One or two of them are just super flaky. Like, holding up the easter egg hunt because she said she'd for sure be there but after 30 minutes, the kids couldn't be held back further. Her explanation: I got a phone call from an old friend! Like, okay, that's so special for you. And, she does that stuff all the time so I don't count on her to be there or make special plans with her that I would be disappointed if they didn't work out.
On the other hand, being a new parent can be more challenging than you think. I said "no" or bowed out of events that I ordinarily would have been excited to attend more than I thought I would as a new parent. Sometimes the kid is sick or your partner can't be there or your kid kept you up all night or your kid and partner are just fine but it's your first time to yourself in a week and you just don't want to go to a dark bar and try to sound interesting to your old friends. Sometimes that happens. It doesn't mean you don't like them anymore.
On the third hand, I am finding it delightful that over two years in to my kids life, I am finding more energy and being better able to go out and enjoy myself like a normal person and not just an exhausted mom. So they may come out of the fog soon. Hard to say.
posted by amanda at 11:10 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's possible one half of the couple wants to do stuff and the other one doesn't and you're caught up in an internal power struggle. The balance of power in a relationship shifts with kids and one partner may suddenly have an excuse to indulge their introvert tendencies, may have never enjoyed the group, may feel they no longest have much in common with you or may genuinely be too tired to socialize and now has the perfect excuse to always get their way. I've seen this a lot in my friends.
posted by fshgrl at 12:39 AM on August 6, 2013 [11 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 12:39 AM on August 6, 2013 [11 favorites]
I think the problem here is that they don't want to admit to themselves that they are parents and so can't do the things they used to do, so they are fooling themselves as much as you. Stop making plans around them. If they want to plan an event that they can attend, then great.
posted by empath at 2:29 AM on August 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 2:29 AM on August 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's possible one half of the couple wants to do stuff and the other one doesn't and you're caught up in an internal power struggle. The balance of power in a relationship shifts with kids and one partner may suddenly have an excuse to indulge their introvert tendencies, may have never enjoyed the group, may feel they no longest have much in common with you or may genuinely be too tired to socialize and now has the perfect excuse to always get their way.
This.
When you are a childfree couple, and one person wants to go, and the other person does not, you just...the person who wants to go goes, and the person who doesn't want to go doesn't, or goes and doesn't stay long.
When you have a child as a couple, if you are the person who wants to go, you are a dick if you constantly stick your partner with the kid so that you can go. Or stick them with the majority of the childcare once there. And even if the partner agrees, often one or the other person is just worn out after dealing with a kid.
Are these things child-free things or things children can go to? What type of events are these? I think this is kind of key to understanding whether your friends are being jerks or not.
The other thing is that I agree - when you're a new parent, you want like hell not to lose your friends, so you do often try to make it to things you know you may not be able to, or talk about how you would "love to" come but can't because X. This doesn't always mean "I really want to come". Sometimes it means "I love you, and I want you to know that I don't want to stop hanging out with you."
posted by corb at 3:00 AM on August 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
This.
When you are a childfree couple, and one person wants to go, and the other person does not, you just...the person who wants to go goes, and the person who doesn't want to go doesn't, or goes and doesn't stay long.
When you have a child as a couple, if you are the person who wants to go, you are a dick if you constantly stick your partner with the kid so that you can go. Or stick them with the majority of the childcare once there. And even if the partner agrees, often one or the other person is just worn out after dealing with a kid.
Are these things child-free things or things children can go to? What type of events are these? I think this is kind of key to understanding whether your friends are being jerks or not.
The other thing is that I agree - when you're a new parent, you want like hell not to lose your friends, so you do often try to make it to things you know you may not be able to, or talk about how you would "love to" come but can't because X. This doesn't always mean "I really want to come". Sometimes it means "I love you, and I want you to know that I don't want to stop hanging out with you."
posted by corb at 3:00 AM on August 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
Wow, you have been great friends, but yeah, it's time to stop accommodating. A couple of things that may be an issue, besides flakiness- what kinds of events are you inviting them to? Parties that start at 9 pm, concerts that run late, long hikes that would be hard to leave early, movies? Or are these events they could conceivably bring their kid along to?
We have a three year old and have made a lot of effort to maintain our social life with our kid-having and kid-free friends, and we're lucky that our friends kind of aged out of doing wild parties as social events. Lunches [at noon, not at one], afternoon bbqs, [early] dinners, trips to the beach are much easier for us to attend. We like to haul our kid around with us to whatever we can, but that means we have to work around his meal and nap schedule. When he was a baby he was super easy to bring to friends' houses. Once he started crawling and became clumsy mobile we had to seriously curtail that because none of our kid-free friends' houses were child-proofed and there was too much dangerous stuff he could get into and nice stuff he could break. Now that he's three and better able to sit and color or watch some cartoons it's starting to become a possibility again, but from about 8 months until just recently he was too much clumsy destruction on legs to bring to inside-friends-houses things.
When we can afford a babysitter and they are actually available we'll treat ourselves to it, but I think people without kids vastly overestimate the ease of procuring a babysitter and then underestimate the cost. Like, we don't go see movies together with our friends anymore because we'll be paying for the hour of commuting into Boston each way and then sitting around the theater for three hours, and we wouldn't even be able to do food/drinks before or after the movie. We'll sometimes split up so one of us stays home and the other goes out, but as corb pointed out, you can't do that super often because it makes the parenting equation not work. Something else that may be coming into play is sheer exhaustion. Kids don't get the pleasure of sleeping in on weekends, so weekends we're up at 5:30 am and we don't have the energy for frequent late evening plans. All that said, we are up front and realistic about our commitments and we don't do the last minute flake out that your friends are doing, that's just rude.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 3:13 AM on August 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
We have a three year old and have made a lot of effort to maintain our social life with our kid-having and kid-free friends, and we're lucky that our friends kind of aged out of doing wild parties as social events. Lunches [at noon, not at one], afternoon bbqs, [early] dinners, trips to the beach are much easier for us to attend. We like to haul our kid around with us to whatever we can, but that means we have to work around his meal and nap schedule. When he was a baby he was super easy to bring to friends' houses. Once he started crawling and became clumsy mobile we had to seriously curtail that because none of our kid-free friends' houses were child-proofed and there was too much dangerous stuff he could get into and nice stuff he could break. Now that he's three and better able to sit and color or watch some cartoons it's starting to become a possibility again, but from about 8 months until just recently he was too much clumsy destruction on legs to bring to inside-friends-houses things.
When we can afford a babysitter and they are actually available we'll treat ourselves to it, but I think people without kids vastly overestimate the ease of procuring a babysitter and then underestimate the cost. Like, we don't go see movies together with our friends anymore because we'll be paying for the hour of commuting into Boston each way and then sitting around the theater for three hours, and we wouldn't even be able to do food/drinks before or after the movie. We'll sometimes split up so one of us stays home and the other goes out, but as corb pointed out, you can't do that super often because it makes the parenting equation not work. Something else that may be coming into play is sheer exhaustion. Kids don't get the pleasure of sleeping in on weekends, so weekends we're up at 5:30 am and we don't have the energy for frequent late evening plans. All that said, we are up front and realistic about our commitments and we don't do the last minute flake out that your friends are doing, that's just rude.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 3:13 AM on August 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I should stress re: cost: the cheapest I've ever acquired a paid babysitter was 12$ an hour, and that was a teenager several years ago. And you need to factor in transportation costs into babysitter time as well.
posted by corb at 3:46 AM on August 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 3:46 AM on August 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm in the "stop accomodating" camp. Continue to invite, but if they can't make it, oh well.
You: You guys want to come over on Sunday? We're doing Battle of the Bands on Guitar Hero.
They: We'd love it, can we do it Saturday evening instead?
You: Maybe next time, we're all set for Sunday. If you can make it, we'd love to see you.
I'm sure they both really want to revisit that time in their lives when they didn't have Kiddo, and it was easy to just say, "Yeah, sure" and go and do. Now Kiddo runs the house and as much as they WANT to come, they over commit.
I find it weird that they're so out of it that they don't realize the amount of time and trouble you've gone to so that you can arrange activities around their schedule. But they don't, so you have my permission to stop doing it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:33 AM on August 6, 2013
You: You guys want to come over on Sunday? We're doing Battle of the Bands on Guitar Hero.
They: We'd love it, can we do it Saturday evening instead?
You: Maybe next time, we're all set for Sunday. If you can make it, we'd love to see you.
I'm sure they both really want to revisit that time in their lives when they didn't have Kiddo, and it was easy to just say, "Yeah, sure" and go and do. Now Kiddo runs the house and as much as they WANT to come, they over commit.
I find it weird that they're so out of it that they don't realize the amount of time and trouble you've gone to so that you can arrange activities around their schedule. But they don't, so you have my permission to stop doing it.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:33 AM on August 6, 2013
I have two children. I've had to cancel plans unexpectedly before because of a sudden nap or an illness.
But not nearly as much as this, and especially not so much after 8 months of age, when things become miraculously easier in lots of ways. My husband and I also split things up sometimes. Like, he'll go hang with friends while I stay home with the kids, then some other times I go hang with friends while he stays home. This means we are not often at the same social event together (unless it's a major life event like a wedding), but it's how the balance works out for us.
The only other thing I could think is if the child is medically fragile in any way or if the child was medically fragile at any point in time and something either does come up related to that or they are letting their fears from past history overtake them related to that.
posted by zizzle at 6:09 AM on August 6, 2013
But not nearly as much as this, and especially not so much after 8 months of age, when things become miraculously easier in lots of ways. My husband and I also split things up sometimes. Like, he'll go hang with friends while I stay home with the kids, then some other times I go hang with friends while he stays home. This means we are not often at the same social event together (unless it's a major life event like a wedding), but it's how the balance works out for us.
The only other thing I could think is if the child is medically fragile in any way or if the child was medically fragile at any point in time and something either does come up related to that or they are letting their fears from past history overtake them related to that.
posted by zizzle at 6:09 AM on August 6, 2013
I thought the same thing fshgrl did. We're friends with a couple who do that, for that reason. Actually I'm not so much friends with the guy any more because I think he is dumping all the child care on his wife. But before we figured this out it was pretty much the situation you describe.
posted by BibiRose at 7:07 AM on August 6, 2013
posted by BibiRose at 7:07 AM on August 6, 2013
I kind of want to know that X is, particularly as you talk about rides and days off. These sound like massive, hyper-planned outings (concert? amusement park?) What happens if you just, you know, invite them to hang out in the park or at a cookout on a Sunday afternoon, somewhere Baby X could be included? Same deal?
Baby X might not be neurotypical and/or be on the autism spectrum
This was actually my first thought, too.
posted by anastasiav at 7:25 AM on August 6, 2013
Baby X might not be neurotypical and/or be on the autism spectrum
This was actually my first thought, too.
posted by anastasiav at 7:25 AM on August 6, 2013
Mod note: From the OP:
Thank you everyone for your answers- specifically the issue with power struggle, because they always cancel on things when it would just be one of them attending, and abut 60% of the time when it involves both of them & the child.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:45 AM on August 6, 2013
The baby is totally fine, no mental/physical issues.
The kinds of events we're talking about are very tame. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I will relate the most recent interaction.
Partner (one of them) contacts us: Hey! It's been a long time since we all got together to watch this baseball game.
Us: Well, there happens to be a game coming up on these dates: X, Y, and Z. We could all get together and watch it and Al's house.
Partner: That would be great, but I could only attend date Y.
Us: ok, that's cool. (Bob needs to ask for the early shift then because they want to go, but that's on them.) We will plan for Y date.
Week before the event partner will contact us- Oh, hey, I forgot we had plans- can we push back the time about an hour?
Us: Sure!
Day before: Hey, I won't have use of the car. Could I possibly have someone pick me up?
Us: Sure!
Hour before, when we've now shuffled cars with our spouses, pushed things back, picked their preferred day, they will email/text and cancel.
And these are not ever don't bring your kid activities, late concerts, or drunk parties. We're talking BBQ's free plays in parks, and meeting for coffee.
Thanks again for your answers- they have really provided some perspective.
Single father here. If one of my friends invites me to something, the first thing I'll ask is what time it is. If it's child-friendly and ends before 8:30 or so, I can just accept. If it's not child-friendly or goes later than that, I'll typically say, "let me see if I can get someone to watch my daughter." I can normally get back to you in a day or two and let you know if I have a sitter or not. Once I've arranged a sitter, I will show up as expected, unless someone gets sick or something.
There's no excuse for what they're doing, in my opinion.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 8:09 AM on August 6, 2013
There's no excuse for what they're doing, in my opinion.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 8:09 AM on August 6, 2013
Don't judge. (Which there is a lot of in the thread, I see.) Different people have different thresholds for dealing with the chaos of life, and these people might have a lower one or different one than you do. Who knows what might be going on in their life, and some folks are more hermitish than others, despite feeling like they shouldn't be when offered an invitation. But don't keep bending over backwards for them, because that will just annoy you more and make you judge more. (And probably if you could peek into their life, increasing their guilt at not being able to follow through on things as often as others expect.) Try to leave it to them to set some joint activities up, and if they don't, move on.
posted by aught at 9:26 AM on August 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by aught at 9:26 AM on August 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
Next time you talk to Husband or Wife, tell them how much you miss them, and suggest that they find a time when the gang can gather at their house, so they don't have to have a babysiitter, you'd all get to see the baby, and it would be convenient for them. Bonus: they can't flake. You could gently mention that they tend to be unavailable even when their schedule is specifically accommodated.
posted by theora55 at 11:17 AM on August 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 11:17 AM on August 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm in the stop accommodating camp as well.
We have a 2yo, and we feel really presumptive asking our childless friends to schedule activities that would include our kid, or to schedule around our schedule (like, can we start after our kid's bedtime? type of scheduling). If we can make it to the set plans, we will. If the plans don't work for our schedule, we simply skip it. BUT, we are sure then to schedule a reciprocal invitation - dinner at our house, or an invitation to an event on a date that we've already checked and made sure we can get a sitter for.
I can't say for sure what your friends' situation is, but they aren't being good friends, and it sounds like you and your group have gone way out of your way to try to remain friends. I think you can address it with them directly (always the best course of action), but it sounds like they are being passive - don't be surprised if you don't get a straight answer. You could continue inviting them to things, but don't accommodate anymore.
posted by vignettist at 11:20 AM on August 6, 2013
We have a 2yo, and we feel really presumptive asking our childless friends to schedule activities that would include our kid, or to schedule around our schedule (like, can we start after our kid's bedtime? type of scheduling). If we can make it to the set plans, we will. If the plans don't work for our schedule, we simply skip it. BUT, we are sure then to schedule a reciprocal invitation - dinner at our house, or an invitation to an event on a date that we've already checked and made sure we can get a sitter for.
I can't say for sure what your friends' situation is, but they aren't being good friends, and it sounds like you and your group have gone way out of your way to try to remain friends. I think you can address it with them directly (always the best course of action), but it sounds like they are being passive - don't be surprised if you don't get a straight answer. You could continue inviting them to things, but don't accommodate anymore.
posted by vignettist at 11:20 AM on August 6, 2013
Your update makes one thing abundantly clear: you are not letting them know the sacrifices you are making in order to accomodate them. This means they're not being terrible people and ignoring these things, they genuinely do not know.
When they ask for one date out of three, they're not hearing, "We want to go X, Y, or Z. Most people find X more convenient. Oh, you want to do Y? Well, let me see if people can reschedule, but it will be a bit of an inconvenience." They're hearing, "Any of these three dates will work. It is a matter of complete indifference to me."
They ask if they can push back the time an hour or have someone pick them up, and you're saying, "Sure! Not a problem!" Probably because you want so much to see them, but either way, you're giving the impression that this is not a big deal, and just a slight change to whatever's going on that will inconvenience no one.
Then, if they don't come, it's a group gathering of people - so they don't necessarily feel bad about canceling, because there's lots of other people and the event will still go on. They're not aware of how much people have shifted for them. Start telling them.
posted by corb at 11:30 AM on August 6, 2013 [13 favorites]
When they ask for one date out of three, they're not hearing, "We want to go X, Y, or Z. Most people find X more convenient. Oh, you want to do Y? Well, let me see if people can reschedule, but it will be a bit of an inconvenience." They're hearing, "Any of these three dates will work. It is a matter of complete indifference to me."
They ask if they can push back the time an hour or have someone pick them up, and you're saying, "Sure! Not a problem!" Probably because you want so much to see them, but either way, you're giving the impression that this is not a big deal, and just a slight change to whatever's going on that will inconvenience no one.
Then, if they don't come, it's a group gathering of people - so they don't necessarily feel bad about canceling, because there's lots of other people and the event will still go on. They're not aware of how much people have shifted for them. Start telling them.
posted by corb at 11:30 AM on August 6, 2013 [13 favorites]
As a parent who has health issues and is introverted to boot, I have to say I still think this level of flakiness is extreme. I agree with everyone that you should stop accommodating their schedule and start picking the times and dates that work best for the rest of you. If they need a ride, let them know what amount of work it will be and to let you know, say, the day before or morning of if they change their mind.
Being aware of my introversion and low energy, I've had plenty of events that I've just turned down. (If they're at the wrong time for bedtime, if there's more than one thing on the weekend, if it's an hour away.) There's a few more events that we had to cancel for one of us being sick enough, or even once or twice for non-napping horrors. But I haven't had to cancel that many things over the years and I always call as soon as I realize there's a problem. Often just one of us will go when we were all planning to, or if it's just me who's sick, my husband will take my daughter to the party/gathering/etc. It would feel much worse missing these events if I thought they were changing things to suit me better.
posted by Margalo Epps at 12:08 PM on August 6, 2013
Being aware of my introversion and low energy, I've had plenty of events that I've just turned down. (If they're at the wrong time for bedtime, if there's more than one thing on the weekend, if it's an hour away.) There's a few more events that we had to cancel for one of us being sick enough, or even once or twice for non-napping horrors. But I haven't had to cancel that many things over the years and I always call as soon as I realize there's a problem. Often just one of us will go when we were all planning to, or if it's just me who's sick, my husband will take my daughter to the party/gathering/etc. It would feel much worse missing these events if I thought they were changing things to suit me better.
posted by Margalo Epps at 12:08 PM on August 6, 2013
From your update, they sound well-meaning but extremely flaky. My hunch, not knowing these people, is that you could have an open conversation about this issue with them and how frustrated you've become with accommodating their schedule only for them to flake on the last minute. It sounds like they do want to maintain the relationships.
My husband and I have a kid and I can't imagine being that flaky with our friends. That said, we do know some other couples with kids who are frustratingly flaky - it's just so hard to plan things with a couple when they can barely coordinate between themselves. Oddly enough, we've had better luck getting together with these types of friends on a very last-minute basis. Quick text: "We're going to the park later this afternoon - you're welcome to join us if you're free, we're bringing hotdogs."
posted by stowaway at 2:58 PM on August 6, 2013
My husband and I have a kid and I can't imagine being that flaky with our friends. That said, we do know some other couples with kids who are frustratingly flaky - it's just so hard to plan things with a couple when they can barely coordinate between themselves. Oddly enough, we've had better luck getting together with these types of friends on a very last-minute basis. Quick text: "We're going to the park later this afternoon - you're welcome to join us if you're free, we're bringing hotdogs."
posted by stowaway at 2:58 PM on August 6, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by thelonius at 8:13 PM on August 5, 2013 [14 favorites]