Tenant's guest lives w/her but only sleeps in on weekends. What to do?
August 5, 2013 12:13 PM Subscribe
Our a tenant (home share) has a partner who effectively lives with us but sleeps in only 2 nights a week (as agreed). We were not told about the living here every day part and now we want to either up the rent or have them move out. Would this be legal? Otherwise, what to do?
We are renting space in our home to a lady and her 4 year old son. In the initial interviews, she told us her boyfriend works and lives in a military base, but would stay over 2 nights on the weekends. We said it was okay for him to stay overnight 2 nights a week. She did not mention anything else about his visiting and it was heavily implied that she only saw him on weekends.
After moving in, however, it turns out he comes to our place from work every day at different hours and sometimes quite early, and spends all of his free time in our place, only to drive away to the base to sleep. He uses services (shower, stove, etc.), she makes meals for him and in general he lives here except for sleeping, which doesn't cost us anything so he might as well.
Our lease mentions guests who stay with us continuously for a week must be added to the lease, but we are not sure about what to do since he doesn't sleep here on weekdays. His work does not appear to be full time either (he shows up in our house at 11 am sometimes), and for all we know he could actually be working 3rd shift, only pretending to sleep somewhere else.
Would it be legally okay for us to let her know he can't spend so much time here? Or to increase the payments? We are new landlords and we're not so sure about how this works. Can we limit the time guests spend in our place?
We are renting space in our home to a lady and her 4 year old son. In the initial interviews, she told us her boyfriend works and lives in a military base, but would stay over 2 nights on the weekends. We said it was okay for him to stay overnight 2 nights a week. She did not mention anything else about his visiting and it was heavily implied that she only saw him on weekends.
After moving in, however, it turns out he comes to our place from work every day at different hours and sometimes quite early, and spends all of his free time in our place, only to drive away to the base to sleep. He uses services (shower, stove, etc.), she makes meals for him and in general he lives here except for sleeping, which doesn't cost us anything so he might as well.
Our lease mentions guests who stay with us continuously for a week must be added to the lease, but we are not sure about what to do since he doesn't sleep here on weekdays. His work does not appear to be full time either (he shows up in our house at 11 am sometimes), and for all we know he could actually be working 3rd shift, only pretending to sleep somewhere else.
Would it be legally okay for us to let her know he can't spend so much time here? Or to increase the payments? We are new landlords and we're not so sure about how this works. Can we limit the time guests spend in our place?
Yeah, this just isn't going to work out. If you try to lay down the law and say, "Hey, this guy is here all the damn time, and that's too much," she's going to ask, "Well, how much is too much?" and then he'll be in your house to that exact extent. And you're going to be just as annoyed, but you won't be able to do anything about it.
If you can terminate the lease, do so. Talk to a local attorney to see what your responsibilities are, and then live up to them, but the arrangement isn't working out, and now you know what to look at next time.
posted by Etrigan at 12:25 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you can terminate the lease, do so. Talk to a local attorney to see what your responsibilities are, and then live up to them, but the arrangement isn't working out, and now you know what to look at next time.
posted by Etrigan at 12:25 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Are you worried by this guy because he's adding significant costs to you as landlords or because you really don't like him being around all the time (i.e., his presence is actively disagreeable to you) or because you're just worried in a somewhat theoretical way that you entered into an agreement with your tenant where she didn't quite act in good faith? I think it's probably important to be clear in your own minds as to what is the real nub of the issue here because that also dictates what counts as a useful resolution (I understand, by the way, that you may be perfectly clear in your minds about this already: but it's not quite clear from the way your question is written).
If you're worried about added costs I'd be surprised if they're worth the worry: after all, she's going to cook anyway and cooking for three doesn't cost significantly more than cooking for two. Similarly, the added expense of his occasional showering is pretty negligible. If it's his actual presence that's an irritant, it's possible that there's no reasonable increase in rent that would actually compensate for that. If he's a jerk whose presence is actively unpleasant to you, then you're probably better off terminating the arrangement as Ruthless Bunny suggests. If it's just a matter of feeling that your tenant pulled a fast one, maybe it's best to put it in the "we'll learn from this going forward" basket. It is possible, after all, that the tenant simply didn't realize she wasn't being sufficiently clear in the original negotiations. It's possible, too, that his work situation has changed a little since that time. Maybe, in that case, it would be best to clear the air by having a conversation about it with the tenant without any hard and fast demands in mind.
posted by yoink at 12:29 PM on August 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
If you're worried about added costs I'd be surprised if they're worth the worry: after all, she's going to cook anyway and cooking for three doesn't cost significantly more than cooking for two. Similarly, the added expense of his occasional showering is pretty negligible. If it's his actual presence that's an irritant, it's possible that there's no reasonable increase in rent that would actually compensate for that. If he's a jerk whose presence is actively unpleasant to you, then you're probably better off terminating the arrangement as Ruthless Bunny suggests. If it's just a matter of feeling that your tenant pulled a fast one, maybe it's best to put it in the "we'll learn from this going forward" basket. It is possible, after all, that the tenant simply didn't realize she wasn't being sufficiently clear in the original negotiations. It's possible, too, that his work situation has changed a little since that time. Maybe, in that case, it would be best to clear the air by having a conversation about it with the tenant without any hard and fast demands in mind.
posted by yoink at 12:29 PM on August 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Virginia, USA.
We have a 6 month lease agreement, but there is a clause that states all changes have to be notified with 30 days notice.
Are we free to terminate the lease for something like this or could we get in trouble? She isn't breaking any written rules, but she was not upfront about the time her bf would spend in our home.
We feel he is using services and costing us money, and we don't like that she wasn't totally honest with us. We don't know him like him or dislike him.
Thanks for your replies!
posted by Tarumba at 12:29 PM on August 5, 2013
We have a 6 month lease agreement, but there is a clause that states all changes have to be notified with 30 days notice.
Are we free to terminate the lease for something like this or could we get in trouble? She isn't breaking any written rules, but she was not upfront about the time her bf would spend in our home.
We feel he is using services and costing us money, and we don't like that she wasn't totally honest with us. We don't know him like him or dislike him.
Thanks for your replies!
posted by Tarumba at 12:29 PM on August 5, 2013
Best answer: I think you really can't do anything about it at this point. Most people do assume that "living with" is a much larger thing than "visiting a lot." Things like sleeping or moving in of personal belongings are generally included.
I would say that you are not free to terminate the lease for something like this - I would suggest that you have a talk with her, however, and perhaps suggest that if this goes on, you will probably not want to renew the lease after the 6 months are up.
The military guy is most likely living in barracks - if he lives on the base and is single. This means that while he may be living somewhere else - his clothes and belongings elsewhere, sleeping there every night except the weekends - he has little motivation to actually spend time at the place where he lives. It is likely another shared living space, except without the bonus of having his girlfriend in it, who apparently cooks for him as well.
Another thing to consider is that if you attempt to terminate her lease because her boyfriend is effectively living there, you are conceding that he does, in fact, effectively live there, which means that protections against evictions of military members may apply.
posted by corb at 12:33 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I would say that you are not free to terminate the lease for something like this - I would suggest that you have a talk with her, however, and perhaps suggest that if this goes on, you will probably not want to renew the lease after the 6 months are up.
The military guy is most likely living in barracks - if he lives on the base and is single. This means that while he may be living somewhere else - his clothes and belongings elsewhere, sleeping there every night except the weekends - he has little motivation to actually spend time at the place where he lives. It is likely another shared living space, except without the bonus of having his girlfriend in it, who apparently cooks for him as well.
Another thing to consider is that if you attempt to terminate her lease because her boyfriend is effectively living there, you are conceding that he does, in fact, effectively live there, which means that protections against evictions of military members may apply.
posted by corb at 12:33 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: >Our lease mentions guests who stay with us continuously for a week must be added to the lease,<>
I would just proceed on the assumption that this guest is effectively living in your home and must be added to the lease. IANAL and even if I was I don't know what case law there might be on whether someone is considered a tenant in these circumstances.
Unless it's just awful I might consider living with it (and him) for the duration/remainder of the 6 month and then, with plenty of notice, demand more rent for the next lease period.
If it's too awful to live with that long, I think you have to (politely) demand more rent since you have an extra guest. I don't think it will even occur to them to argue that he's not a guest since he's not spending the night, but if it does I'd be inclined to kind of smirk in their general direction and repeat the demand. If they dig in you have to decide whether it's worth having a deteriorating relationship.
posted by randomkeystrike at 12:34 PM on August 5, 2013
I would just proceed on the assumption that this guest is effectively living in your home and must be added to the lease. IANAL and even if I was I don't know what case law there might be on whether someone is considered a tenant in these circumstances.
Unless it's just awful I might consider living with it (and him) for the duration/remainder of the 6 month and then, with plenty of notice, demand more rent for the next lease period.
If it's too awful to live with that long, I think you have to (politely) demand more rent since you have an extra guest. I don't think it will even occur to them to argue that he's not a guest since he's not spending the night, but if it does I'd be inclined to kind of smirk in their general direction and repeat the demand. If they dig in you have to decide whether it's worth having a deteriorating relationship.
posted by randomkeystrike at 12:34 PM on August 5, 2013
Best answer: I would sit down with her, housemate to housemate and say, "It seems that Joe is here all the time. I think we had a misunderstanding about houseguests. The idea that they could only sleep over two nights a week was primarily so that we wouldn't have a ton of people over to our house all that time. We're just not comfortable with Joe's being here as much as he is. We'd like it if he could entertain you at his place, or if this isn't going to work, let's agree to terminate our agreement early."
If she's close to the end of the 6 month least, just give her the 30 day notice that you won't be renewing.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:36 PM on August 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
If she's close to the end of the 6 month least, just give her the 30 day notice that you won't be renewing.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:36 PM on August 5, 2013 [5 favorites]
I would also encourage you not to think of her as being dishonest with you. If I were renting an apartment, or even subletting, I would never think to include how often my boyfriend happened to be visiting, except where it might violate rules about sleeping/living there.
You note that guests who stay with you continuously for a week must be added to the lease, but neglected to define "continuous." If this is a thing that bothers you, I'd suggest phrasing it more clearly next time.
Relevant portion of the SCRA:
posted by corb at 12:39 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
You note that guests who stay with you continuously for a week must be added to the lease, but neglected to define "continuous." If this is a thing that bothers you, I'd suggest phrasing it more clearly next time.
Relevant portion of the SCRA:
IN GENERAL- Except by court order, a landlord (or another person with paramount title) may not--The penalty is listed as a misdemeanor, with up to a year of jail time and fines. Thus why I would be very, very careful about trying to say that he is living there and thus breaking the lease.
(A) evict a servicemember, or the dependents of a servicemember, during a period of military service of the servicemember, from premises--
(i) that are occupied or intended to be occupied primarily as a residence; and
(ii) for which the monthly rent does not exceed $2,400, as adjusted under paragraph (2) for years after 2003; or
(B) subject such premises to a distress during the period of military service.
posted by corb at 12:39 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: She isn't breaking any written rules, but she was not upfront about the time her bf would spend in our home.
We feel he is using services and costing us money, and we don't like that she wasn't totally honest with us. We don't know him like him or dislike him.
This is a rhetorical question: Did you ask her "How much time do you think your boyfriend will be spending here?" or did you ask her "Will your boyfriend be sleeping over?"
I don't think she wasn't being "not upfront" or "wasn't totally honest". She answered the questions you asked. It's her fault for not realizing what you meant, but it's also your fault for not asking what you meant. Have the heart-to-heart talk that Ruthless Bunny suggests, and then suck it up for the remainder of the lease if she points out -- accurately -- that he's not sleeping over and therefore is not a guest per the terms of the lease.
Lesson learned: "Heavily implied" doesn't mean shit compared to "actually said." Next time, make them say the words.
posted by Etrigan at 12:40 PM on August 5, 2013 [11 favorites]
We feel he is using services and costing us money, and we don't like that she wasn't totally honest with us. We don't know him like him or dislike him.
This is a rhetorical question: Did you ask her "How much time do you think your boyfriend will be spending here?" or did you ask her "Will your boyfriend be sleeping over?"
I don't think she wasn't being "not upfront" or "wasn't totally honest". She answered the questions you asked. It's her fault for not realizing what you meant, but it's also your fault for not asking what you meant. Have the heart-to-heart talk that Ruthless Bunny suggests, and then suck it up for the remainder of the lease if she points out -- accurately -- that he's not sleeping over and therefore is not a guest per the terms of the lease.
Lesson learned: "Heavily implied" doesn't mean shit compared to "actually said." Next time, make them say the words.
posted by Etrigan at 12:40 PM on August 5, 2013 [11 favorites]
We feel he is using services and costing us money, and we don't like that she wasn't totally honest with us.
Your feelings are probably pretty off base. I doubt that he is using services that are costing you a lot of money. If I let my friend shower at my house every now and then, should I expect a bill from my landlord? And I think that she probably thought she was being honest - he is only sleeping over two nights per week.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 12:41 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Your feelings are probably pretty off base. I doubt that he is using services that are costing you a lot of money. If I let my friend shower at my house every now and then, should I expect a bill from my landlord? And I think that she probably thought she was being honest - he is only sleeping over two nights per week.
posted by ablazingsaddle at 12:41 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: For your peace of mind, it might be worth a consult with an attorney who specializes in landlord-tenant law. It's nice to have a relationship with an attorney down the line, in case you get really crazy tenants or have other landlord-tenant issues that occur. It's really nice to just be able to throw money at the problem instead of dealing with the hassle.
I think you'd be justified in not reupping the lease, but full-on evicting her seems unreasonable.
But it sounds like you might be ok if she pays more? How much more would it take for you to feel comfortable?
(We had to deal with a crazy landlord when breaking a lease, and it was totally worth the money. And now we're landlords, and I will definitely spend money on a lawyer if it becomes necessary.)
posted by leahwrenn at 12:59 PM on August 5, 2013
I think you'd be justified in not reupping the lease, but full-on evicting her seems unreasonable.
But it sounds like you might be ok if she pays more? How much more would it take for you to feel comfortable?
(We had to deal with a crazy landlord when breaking a lease, and it was totally worth the money. And now we're landlords, and I will definitely spend money on a lawyer if it becomes necessary.)
posted by leahwrenn at 12:59 PM on August 5, 2013
I think your feelings are justified; she certainly lied to you about her relationship and how often this man would be in your home. Lawyer, asap.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:25 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:25 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm a bit surprised that no one has questioned whether you are in a landlord-tenant legal relationship at all. I may be off base here, but in my jurisdiction, a landlord who rents out non-self-contained space within their own home is not granting an actual tenancy. They are giving permission to stay, but that permission can be withdrawn with a lot less rights to notice etc than would be required for a tenant who, by definition, would be living in a self-contained residence.
I would suggest you verify locally that any legal advice you have relating to tenancies actually applies to your own situation, where the renter is staying in your own home.
posted by wilko at 1:33 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I would suggest you verify locally that any legal advice you have relating to tenancies actually applies to your own situation, where the renter is staying in your own home.
posted by wilko at 1:33 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I would probably not look at this from a legal standpoint, but just a fairness standpoint. I would sit down with the tenant and say that when she said her boyfriend would stay at his own place 5 nights a week, you expected that would mean showering, too. And because he's not, your water bill is 20% higher than you budgeted for and your gas bill is 25% higher so you'd like her to cover those extra costs. It helps if you can quantify the extra cost, and if you talk to her just as a reasonable human being, rather than come at it with a legal argument which only puts up a wall between you and allows her to get defensive.
Have you quantified the extra cost, by the way? This may be one of those things that seems like it's costing you a bunch of money and you're seething while he's in there showering or making tea, but when you sit down to work it out it's actually not as much as you feared. Just seeing it on paper may help you get through the rest of the lease until you decide whether or not to renew.
posted by payoto at 1:50 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Have you quantified the extra cost, by the way? This may be one of those things that seems like it's costing you a bunch of money and you're seething while he's in there showering or making tea, but when you sit down to work it out it's actually not as much as you feared. Just seeing it on paper may help you get through the rest of the lease until you decide whether or not to renew.
posted by payoto at 1:50 PM on August 5, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The purpose of the lease is to give both parties a predictable set of rules for the landlord-tenant relationship. She is following the lease. I would be really surprised if you could raise the rent or change the terms in the middle of the lease. (IANAL but the leases that I have seen say 30 day notice for changes at the end of hte lease or if it converts to month-to-month after original lease is over.) So, if you don't want to pay for a lawyer, you should assume that you can't do anything until the 6 months is up. However, finding a good tenant is hard - if she is otherwise OK, I would consider what new terms might make this work for you and offer her a modified contract to stay on.
Second, the cost to you of this guy being there on weekdays is probably less than $20 a month - assuming a shower costs $1.12 and the electricity, stove etc are things that his girlfriend and her son would be using anyway. This is the kind of situation where my husband will ask me "Can I just pay you the $20 to let go of the aggravation?" This seems to be mostly an emotional issue. Would you be willing to pay yourself to say this is OK for now and let go of the aggravation/frustration/grief that you are taking on?
Also, it might help to realize that there are other scenarios that might have the same impact on resource usage that are completely allowed within the lease - what if she had an 8 person study group at her house every day? If her jogging partner used her shower daily after they went out running together? If she had someone (different people each time) stay full-time for 6 days out of every month?
Good luck - this isn't turning out the way you had hoped but it doesn't have to be miserable for you.
posted by metahawk at 1:51 PM on August 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
Second, the cost to you of this guy being there on weekdays is probably less than $20 a month - assuming a shower costs $1.12 and the electricity, stove etc are things that his girlfriend and her son would be using anyway. This is the kind of situation where my husband will ask me "Can I just pay you the $20 to let go of the aggravation?" This seems to be mostly an emotional issue. Would you be willing to pay yourself to say this is OK for now and let go of the aggravation/frustration/grief that you are taking on?
Also, it might help to realize that there are other scenarios that might have the same impact on resource usage that are completely allowed within the lease - what if she had an 8 person study group at her house every day? If her jogging partner used her shower daily after they went out running together? If she had someone (different people each time) stay full-time for 6 days out of every month?
Good luck - this isn't turning out the way you had hoped but it doesn't have to be miserable for you.
posted by metahawk at 1:51 PM on August 5, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think that you're overreacting. This may not be what you were expecting, but it would never occur to me to tell my landlord that I have friends over every day. Unless he's actively disrupting your living space--he's really loud, or he smells bad, or he leaves crap all over the place--I don't think that you have anything to stand on.
I also think that you're overestimating what this is costing you. I'm pretty hyperaware of my bills, and have occasionally had people stay at my house for a month or two. I've never seen a rise, on any given bill, of more than about $10-$15 for that, and, frankly, $10-$15 is within the normal variations of my household's standard usage.
If she's otherwise a good tenant and compatible with your household, I'd seriously weigh the value of sucking it up and dealing with her boyfriend vs having to find a new tenant, who may be problematic in new and exciting unforeseen ways.
posted by MeghanC at 2:02 PM on August 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
I also think that you're overestimating what this is costing you. I'm pretty hyperaware of my bills, and have occasionally had people stay at my house for a month or two. I've never seen a rise, on any given bill, of more than about $10-$15 for that, and, frankly, $10-$15 is within the normal variations of my household's standard usage.
If she's otherwise a good tenant and compatible with your household, I'd seriously weigh the value of sucking it up and dealing with her boyfriend vs having to find a new tenant, who may be problematic in new and exciting unforeseen ways.
posted by MeghanC at 2:02 PM on August 5, 2013 [4 favorites]
We feel he is using services and costing us money
I think you need to be able to actually quantify that this is happening in order to have a leg to stand on, here.
Your tenant is a human. She gets to have relationships with other humans. Now, if the water bills have been double the usual and you're paying the difference, speak up. If her cooking meals for him means the gas bill is suddenly through the roof, again, speak up. You should be able to show her how the costs have increased and be able to give her a number to pay to cover his share of utilities.
If it's just that she has a boyfriend and that vaguely irks you for Reasons, deal with it or don't have tenants in a house share arrangement.
posted by Sara C. at 2:09 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think you need to be able to actually quantify that this is happening in order to have a leg to stand on, here.
Your tenant is a human. She gets to have relationships with other humans. Now, if the water bills have been double the usual and you're paying the difference, speak up. If her cooking meals for him means the gas bill is suddenly through the roof, again, speak up. You should be able to show her how the costs have increased and be able to give her a number to pay to cover his share of utilities.
If it's just that she has a boyfriend and that vaguely irks you for Reasons, deal with it or don't have tenants in a house share arrangement.
posted by Sara C. at 2:09 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: If she was renting the house out right then I'd agree with some of the other posters about her not having to notify you of how many times her boyfriend visits. However I think what some people are forgetting is that this is your home and by the sounds of it she is just a lodger. I'm in the UK so the laws will probably be different. However in the UK if someone is just renting a room that you can enter at will and they have no space that they can lock then they are just lodging with you and have considerably less rights than a tenant. In the UK you can get rid of a lodger very quickly but not a tenant.
Personally I think you have every right to be annoyed about your lodgers boyfriend being there all the time. You vetted her and decided you didn't mind her being there all the time. You didn't vet her boyfriend and didn't decide you wanted him there. If I was lodging in someone elses home then I would never dream of having my boyfriend round every single day. Plus those people who say that it's probably not costing you much might be supprised. When my lodger moved out my gas bill halved and my electricity bill dropped by more than half. If he's there when you're not there, then the TV etc will be on when it wouldn't normally, there by costing you more. Plus you don't know anything about this man, what happens when she leaves him there on his own? I do think that she's taking advantage, as she is living in your home, not hers, and she should be respectful of your space and wishes.
posted by Ranting Prophet of DOOM! at 2:44 PM on August 5, 2013 [6 favorites]
Personally I think you have every right to be annoyed about your lodgers boyfriend being there all the time. You vetted her and decided you didn't mind her being there all the time. You didn't vet her boyfriend and didn't decide you wanted him there. If I was lodging in someone elses home then I would never dream of having my boyfriend round every single day. Plus those people who say that it's probably not costing you much might be supprised. When my lodger moved out my gas bill halved and my electricity bill dropped by more than half. If he's there when you're not there, then the TV etc will be on when it wouldn't normally, there by costing you more. Plus you don't know anything about this man, what happens when she leaves him there on his own? I do think that she's taking advantage, as she is living in your home, not hers, and she should be respectful of your space and wishes.
posted by Ranting Prophet of DOOM! at 2:44 PM on August 5, 2013 [6 favorites]
Best answer: In my location, you can choose to not renew a lease after it's ended. You don't need to give a reason, but you do need to give notice. If she chooses not to move, you would have to evict her, which would be a big hassle. But unless she's short on funds, I don't see why she would want an eviction on her record, rather than just move out.
I think it's totally valid for you to not want this stranger around all the time. You don't know him. You haven't met him. You haven't done a credit or background check on him, so you don't know that he's trustworthy to your standards. If it bothers you that much, you can totally ask for more rent, or just choose to not renew the lease. If I were you, I would increase the rent to what you would consider acceptable for two people and see what they say. You don't even have to bring up that's why you're increasing rent, that way she can't object.
Some people are saying that you need to have proof that he's using up utilities, etc. I don't feel that way. If he's there all the time, that means the house is more crowded. Full stop. That makes it less pleasant and private. I am extremely uncomfortable with strange men, and would probably have a break down if I had to effectively live with a strange man in the house. (Limited hours might be okay, but again, she doesn't know your circumstances and I do feel she's taking advantage of you.) If there are a limited number of bathrooms, for example, then yes, he's using up resources. Also, if it were a "normal" relationship, he would have his own space, and they would likely alternate between the two places. (I'm assuming she cannot visit him on the military base.)
As a landlord, though, if you're relatively comfortable with him, and the lodger is financially stable and otherwise compatible with your lifestyle, it may be the case of choosing the devil you know. As in, the vacancy between tenants, having to advertise, show, and screen the new tenant, and potentially getting not as good a tenant... all this might not be worth it.
Or it might be.
posted by ethidda at 3:01 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think it's totally valid for you to not want this stranger around all the time. You don't know him. You haven't met him. You haven't done a credit or background check on him, so you don't know that he's trustworthy to your standards. If it bothers you that much, you can totally ask for more rent, or just choose to not renew the lease. If I were you, I would increase the rent to what you would consider acceptable for two people and see what they say. You don't even have to bring up that's why you're increasing rent, that way she can't object.
Some people are saying that you need to have proof that he's using up utilities, etc. I don't feel that way. If he's there all the time, that means the house is more crowded. Full stop. That makes it less pleasant and private. I am extremely uncomfortable with strange men, and would probably have a break down if I had to effectively live with a strange man in the house. (Limited hours might be okay, but again, she doesn't know your circumstances and I do feel she's taking advantage of you.) If there are a limited number of bathrooms, for example, then yes, he's using up resources. Also, if it were a "normal" relationship, he would have his own space, and they would likely alternate between the two places. (I'm assuming she cannot visit him on the military base.)
As a landlord, though, if you're relatively comfortable with him, and the lodger is financially stable and otherwise compatible with your lifestyle, it may be the case of choosing the devil you know. As in, the vacancy between tenants, having to advertise, show, and screen the new tenant, and potentially getting not as good a tenant... all this might not be worth it.
Or it might be.
posted by ethidda at 3:01 PM on August 5, 2013 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I forgot to mention we have not done his background check or any kind of screening on him. I am also not sure how he manages to spend 2/3 of the day in our place, and this is why I really think he is living with us and working 3rd shift, otherwise at what time does he work? We specifically asked her about his spending time in our place and explained to her that if it was more than 2 nights a week he would have to be added to the lease and we would have to run a background check on him. We also gave her a discount on the grounds that she was renting as a single adult with a child. If we had known it would be 2 adults at all times (they don't leave the house at all), we would not have given her a discount.
Corb, thank you for the info on leasing to military personnel. If he is not however in the lease, wouldn't that make it a non-issue? I mean, if he being in the military decided to stay for free anywhere and got kicked out for not having permission to do so, would he still be defended by the law? Isn't that what is happening here? He didn't sign anything and we did not even meet him until after our tenant moved in.
I think we'll talk to her following Ruthless Bunny's script, and we'll see how it goes.
posted by Tarumba at 3:10 PM on August 5, 2013
Corb, thank you for the info on leasing to military personnel. If he is not however in the lease, wouldn't that make it a non-issue? I mean, if he being in the military decided to stay for free anywhere and got kicked out for not having permission to do so, would he still be defended by the law? Isn't that what is happening here? He didn't sign anything and we did not even meet him until after our tenant moved in.
I think we'll talk to her following Ruthless Bunny's script, and we'll see how it goes.
posted by Tarumba at 3:10 PM on August 5, 2013
Response by poster: If I let my friend shower at my house every now and then
He has a shower every day at our place.
posted by Tarumba at 3:16 PM on August 5, 2013
He has a shower every day at our place.
posted by Tarumba at 3:16 PM on August 5, 2013
You could, as her roommate, tell her that you feel surprised and displeased by the amount of time she has company, that you had originally understood that she would only have company on weekends and very occasional weekdays, and that you would prefer that the house be empty of guests X days per week. I don't think you can legally force that to happen, though.
In my state, if you want to discontinue a lease you can do so at the end of the lease term "without grounds" if you give 60 days notice. If you do give a reason, then the tenant has the right to address your reason and/or challenge you in court. I don't know what the law is like in Virginia, and I am not sure how much normal tenant/landlord law applies when the tenant lives in your home. You might consider calling the Virginia Bar and asking to have a low-cost consultation with a lawyer (once again, in my state, they will give you someone's phone number who does the kind of law you're interested in, and it costs $30 to talk your situation over for a half-hour).
posted by feets at 4:00 PM on August 5, 2013
In my state, if you want to discontinue a lease you can do so at the end of the lease term "without grounds" if you give 60 days notice. If you do give a reason, then the tenant has the right to address your reason and/or challenge you in court. I don't know what the law is like in Virginia, and I am not sure how much normal tenant/landlord law applies when the tenant lives in your home. You might consider calling the Virginia Bar and asking to have a low-cost consultation with a lawyer (once again, in my state, they will give you someone's phone number who does the kind of law you're interested in, and it costs $30 to talk your situation over for a half-hour).
posted by feets at 4:00 PM on August 5, 2013
As far as I'm concerned someone having a shower every day and eating all their meals in one house implies they live there. If they lived elsewhere then they would shower there before they left to visit somewhere else. They'd also have breakfast in their own home. It's a shame you can't find out his last name and contact the where he's meant to work to check what hours he works so you can tell if he's sleeping at yours during the day. Alternatively sneak back home one day when you're supposed to be working to see if he's sleeping there.
posted by Ranting Prophet of DOOM! at 4:03 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Ranting Prophet of DOOM! at 4:03 PM on August 5, 2013 [1 favorite]
I forgot to mention we have not done his background check or any kind of screening on him.
I think your idea of the level of control you ought to have over your tenants is a little misguided.
I also think that, realistically, the only way you're going to make headway on this is to talk to your tenant about it, as peers and roommates. Not as some kind of "pursuant to your lease" issue.
Because frankly, in the US you don't have a legal leg to stand on. You cannot compel her to do anything. You can evict her, but A) it doesn't sound like she's violating anything, B) you may not actually have standing to evict her, and C) evicting someone is a pain in the ass.
On the other hand, it sounds like, having framed this as a lease thing in the past, all that's happening is that she's skirting around the letter of the law by having him over, but not having him sleep over. The only way to get her to change her approach is to talk to her as a person not as a landlord. You need to say, "Boyfriend is over here too much. We feel like our privacy is being violated. He's always in the bathroom when I need to be in there, he's always watching TV in the living room when I want to relax and have private time. The utility bills have gone up X amount. This is not cool. He needs to be over here less."
Because approaching it as a landlord/tenant issue, and trying to frame it around legal agreements between the two of you isn't going to accomplish anything.
I also frankly would not frame it around background checks and stuff because it makes you sound like an asshole.
posted by Sara C. at 5:12 PM on August 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
I think your idea of the level of control you ought to have over your tenants is a little misguided.
I also think that, realistically, the only way you're going to make headway on this is to talk to your tenant about it, as peers and roommates. Not as some kind of "pursuant to your lease" issue.
Because frankly, in the US you don't have a legal leg to stand on. You cannot compel her to do anything. You can evict her, but A) it doesn't sound like she's violating anything, B) you may not actually have standing to evict her, and C) evicting someone is a pain in the ass.
On the other hand, it sounds like, having framed this as a lease thing in the past, all that's happening is that she's skirting around the letter of the law by having him over, but not having him sleep over. The only way to get her to change her approach is to talk to her as a person not as a landlord. You need to say, "Boyfriend is over here too much. We feel like our privacy is being violated. He's always in the bathroom when I need to be in there, he's always watching TV in the living room when I want to relax and have private time. The utility bills have gone up X amount. This is not cool. He needs to be over here less."
Because approaching it as a landlord/tenant issue, and trying to frame it around legal agreements between the two of you isn't going to accomplish anything.
I also frankly would not frame it around background checks and stuff because it makes you sound like an asshole.
posted by Sara C. at 5:12 PM on August 5, 2013 [7 favorites]
I forgot to mention we have not done his background check or any kind of screening on him. I am also not sure how he manages to spend 2/3 of the day in our place, and this is why I really think he is living with us and working 3rd shift, otherwise at what time does he work?
I think this is probably an emotional thing for you guys, but let me try to address these concerns.
In terms of doing a background check: you don't have to do a background check on military personnel, generally, because the military has done it for you. I promise, when you join the military, they even check if you have overdue library books, or at least they did when I joined. (I did) This is not a concern I'd worry too much about.
In terms of how he manages to spend a lot of the day at your place and why he showers all the time there: does he shower upon arrival? He may be showering right after PT, or physical training. Military personnel have mandatory exercise every day, generally either right before work, or right after work. If they are doing PT after work, they usually shower twice a day - once when they wake up, and once after PT so they don't stink up wherever they are. It's also normal to shower at someone else's house if there is a communal shower. Some barracks have one bathroom per floor, with four or five showers for twenty to thirty people. I don't know what base this is, but this is entirely feasible. I used to have a non-boyfriend come over and shower at my place after PT all the time just to not have to wait.
Why he may be coming over at weird hours - he may have a variable shift schedule. There are two weird shift schedules currently at use in the military (from what I recall) - one is 12 on/12 off (with alternates of two-two-three-two type stuff and 5 days on two days off), the other is 8-8-8. When military personnel work shift-type schedules, they generally "Switch", so that no one person is stuck with a sucky shift for any length of time. If he seems like his times of being over are constantly shifting, this might be it, or if he sometimes comes in the very early morning and sometimes comes in the evening.
Corb, thank you for the info on leasing to military personnel. If he is not however in the lease, wouldn't that make it a non-issue? I mean, if he being in the military decided to stay for free anywhere and got kicked out for not having permission to do so, would he still be defended by the law?
There are a lot of answers to this. The most practical one might be: a court might decide that in the end, but in the meantime, you might be tied up in court for quite some time if he can get his commander or really any supervisor to write him a note saying that military necessity requires he not appear in court for some time. Supervisors are generally happy to write these notes even on the slightest pretext whether or not they are correct- they don't like to see people tied up in outside court battles. There is no way to externally verify the validity of these notes. In the meantime, you would likely be prohibited from "Evicting" him - or more. Virginia is a particularly military-friendly state. This is why I'm saying it's really, really important that you not make it about how the boyfriend is "living there". He may be unaware of the full extent of the SCRA, but a lot of people are. Also, another thing to remember is, he has access to free legal services while you do not. He can go to his local legal office and talk to a lawyer for free to get advice on how to handle it - and I guarantee you, if you try to evict his girlfriend and her kid, all of his macho instincts are probably going to kick in and he's going to attempt to pull whatever he can. I have seen these types of situations.
That said, there are also more effective ways to keep this guy from coming over all the time, that I don't feel comfortable discussing publicly: memail me if you're interested.
posted by corb at 2:24 AM on August 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think this is probably an emotional thing for you guys, but let me try to address these concerns.
In terms of doing a background check: you don't have to do a background check on military personnel, generally, because the military has done it for you. I promise, when you join the military, they even check if you have overdue library books, or at least they did when I joined. (I did) This is not a concern I'd worry too much about.
In terms of how he manages to spend a lot of the day at your place and why he showers all the time there: does he shower upon arrival? He may be showering right after PT, or physical training. Military personnel have mandatory exercise every day, generally either right before work, or right after work. If they are doing PT after work, they usually shower twice a day - once when they wake up, and once after PT so they don't stink up wherever they are. It's also normal to shower at someone else's house if there is a communal shower. Some barracks have one bathroom per floor, with four or five showers for twenty to thirty people. I don't know what base this is, but this is entirely feasible. I used to have a non-boyfriend come over and shower at my place after PT all the time just to not have to wait.
Why he may be coming over at weird hours - he may have a variable shift schedule. There are two weird shift schedules currently at use in the military (from what I recall) - one is 12 on/12 off (with alternates of two-two-three-two type stuff and 5 days on two days off), the other is 8-8-8. When military personnel work shift-type schedules, they generally "Switch", so that no one person is stuck with a sucky shift for any length of time. If he seems like his times of being over are constantly shifting, this might be it, or if he sometimes comes in the very early morning and sometimes comes in the evening.
Corb, thank you for the info on leasing to military personnel. If he is not however in the lease, wouldn't that make it a non-issue? I mean, if he being in the military decided to stay for free anywhere and got kicked out for not having permission to do so, would he still be defended by the law?
There are a lot of answers to this. The most practical one might be: a court might decide that in the end, but in the meantime, you might be tied up in court for quite some time if he can get his commander or really any supervisor to write him a note saying that military necessity requires he not appear in court for some time. Supervisors are generally happy to write these notes even on the slightest pretext whether or not they are correct- they don't like to see people tied up in outside court battles. There is no way to externally verify the validity of these notes. In the meantime, you would likely be prohibited from "Evicting" him - or more. Virginia is a particularly military-friendly state. This is why I'm saying it's really, really important that you not make it about how the boyfriend is "living there". He may be unaware of the full extent of the SCRA, but a lot of people are. Also, another thing to remember is, he has access to free legal services while you do not. He can go to his local legal office and talk to a lawyer for free to get advice on how to handle it - and I guarantee you, if you try to evict his girlfriend and her kid, all of his macho instincts are probably going to kick in and he's going to attempt to pull whatever he can. I have seen these types of situations.
That said, there are also more effective ways to keep this guy from coming over all the time, that I don't feel comfortable discussing publicly: memail me if you're interested.
posted by corb at 2:24 AM on August 6, 2013 [1 favorite]
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You do have a month-to-month lease correct? So with 30 days notice you can do whatever you want, and with 30 days notice SHE can do whatever she wants.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 12:18 PM on August 5, 2013 [5 favorites]