How can I communicate with my boyfriend more effectively?
July 29, 2013 6:46 AM Subscribe
I don't know how to handle minor conflict with my boyfriend. Specifically, I don't know how to deal with myself when I do things wrong. I can't stop beating myself up in my head.
I was in an abusive relationship for 3 years, which I left 10 months ago. This is my first real, adult, mature relationship since leaving my abuser. I am in therapy and am doing really well. I started dating my boyfriend 3 months ago and everything had been going really well. We are both 30.
Unfortunately, I made a stupid joke* the other day that hurt his feelings on text. I apologized, but he didn't reply to my apology. I texted him a few more times throughout the day like usual about other stuff and he never responded, which is out of character for him. So when I saw him yesterday (a date we planned pre-joke) I asked him about it. I apologized again, and he said he was over it. I tried to say that his lack of communication for the rest of the day hurt my feelings, but I am not sure I got that across. He just said again that he was over it and did not want to talk further.
I just am having a lot of trouble with this, and with another silly thing that happened between us. He told me that he likes when I spend the night at his house but that I shouldn't ask during the date - I should ask ahead of time. This is something we have talked about before. I tried explaining that it is hard for me to ask because when he says no I feel rejected, and I wish he would ask me to stay over sometimes. I wasn't really able to say this in the moment - I felt really bad that he had just told me that he didn't want me to spend the night, and I just couldn't say how I felt. Now I'm afraid if I bring it up he will just shut me down again.
So my basic problem is that I have an intensely difficult time expressing my needs or desires anyhow, and his non-response responses make me just feel terrible. How can I learn to better articulate how I feel without feeling really bad internally? It was hard for me to say "can I stay over" and I think part of me feels like I should get what I want if I communicate - which I know isn't true, but it's so hard for me to do it that I really want to succeed when I do so that I can continue expressing myself. I am glad when he articulates his needs and desires but he has trouble with that, too. He told me that a big issue he has is when people "linger" and that sometimes he wants people to leave but he will never tell them outright. He said that has never happened with me, which I believe, but I told him "if it ever does you need to tell me so that I can give you what you need" and he said he would not do that. I came up with alternatives - a jokey phrase, a code word, prescribed plans for our time together so that this won't happen - and he shut them all down. Again, like with staying over, I feel like the burden is on me and that now I will be worrying about whether or not I am "smothering" him or if I am overstaying my welcome.
So, how can I just relax and stop worrying? And how can I communicate what I feel without feeling bad about myself? I feel so horrible when I say something wrong, like my joke. I also feel horrible when he froze me out (he was hanging out alone all day and his not replying to my texts was not situational). Articulating my desires and needs is so hard - now can I make this easier for myself?
Also, this guy is great and until recently it was nothing but roses. This weirdness is recent and started after I told him I loved him in a really embarrassing way. He did not say it back, which I am totally cool with - which I said. I haven't said it again. Could this be connected?
* I joked about sleeping with a celebrity whose music I am fond of, and I can see why it was hurtful. I am still a little confused because he is always talking about how he hardly ever gets offended. He also makes inappropriate jokes of his own a lot.
I was in an abusive relationship for 3 years, which I left 10 months ago. This is my first real, adult, mature relationship since leaving my abuser. I am in therapy and am doing really well. I started dating my boyfriend 3 months ago and everything had been going really well. We are both 30.
Unfortunately, I made a stupid joke* the other day that hurt his feelings on text. I apologized, but he didn't reply to my apology. I texted him a few more times throughout the day like usual about other stuff and he never responded, which is out of character for him. So when I saw him yesterday (a date we planned pre-joke) I asked him about it. I apologized again, and he said he was over it. I tried to say that his lack of communication for the rest of the day hurt my feelings, but I am not sure I got that across. He just said again that he was over it and did not want to talk further.
I just am having a lot of trouble with this, and with another silly thing that happened between us. He told me that he likes when I spend the night at his house but that I shouldn't ask during the date - I should ask ahead of time. This is something we have talked about before. I tried explaining that it is hard for me to ask because when he says no I feel rejected, and I wish he would ask me to stay over sometimes. I wasn't really able to say this in the moment - I felt really bad that he had just told me that he didn't want me to spend the night, and I just couldn't say how I felt. Now I'm afraid if I bring it up he will just shut me down again.
So my basic problem is that I have an intensely difficult time expressing my needs or desires anyhow, and his non-response responses make me just feel terrible. How can I learn to better articulate how I feel without feeling really bad internally? It was hard for me to say "can I stay over" and I think part of me feels like I should get what I want if I communicate - which I know isn't true, but it's so hard for me to do it that I really want to succeed when I do so that I can continue expressing myself. I am glad when he articulates his needs and desires but he has trouble with that, too. He told me that a big issue he has is when people "linger" and that sometimes he wants people to leave but he will never tell them outright. He said that has never happened with me, which I believe, but I told him "if it ever does you need to tell me so that I can give you what you need" and he said he would not do that. I came up with alternatives - a jokey phrase, a code word, prescribed plans for our time together so that this won't happen - and he shut them all down. Again, like with staying over, I feel like the burden is on me and that now I will be worrying about whether or not I am "smothering" him or if I am overstaying my welcome.
So, how can I just relax and stop worrying? And how can I communicate what I feel without feeling bad about myself? I feel so horrible when I say something wrong, like my joke. I also feel horrible when he froze me out (he was hanging out alone all day and his not replying to my texts was not situational). Articulating my desires and needs is so hard - now can I make this easier for myself?
Also, this guy is great and until recently it was nothing but roses. This weirdness is recent and started after I told him I loved him in a really embarrassing way. He did not say it back, which I am totally cool with - which I said. I haven't said it again. Could this be connected?
* I joked about sleeping with a celebrity whose music I am fond of, and I can see why it was hurtful. I am still a little confused because he is always talking about how he hardly ever gets offended. He also makes inappropriate jokes of his own a lot.
Tell him that freezing you out is not acceptable. If he needs time to sort things out, he needs to make that plain. But he's your boyfriend and you deserve to be respected and not ignored.
But things are not and were not "roses". You just have nothing great to compare it to. You shouldn't feel alone in a relationship that is going well. And honestly, at this point, he seems to have emotionally abandoned you.
I question whether he can fulfill your need to be heard and respected. Give him his space officially. Tell him that you need to reevaluate where things are going. Then stick to it. You'll hopefully find an answer in the silence that you impose, not the one he did.
posted by inturnaround at 7:00 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
But things are not and were not "roses". You just have nothing great to compare it to. You shouldn't feel alone in a relationship that is going well. And honestly, at this point, he seems to have emotionally abandoned you.
I question whether he can fulfill your need to be heard and respected. Give him his space officially. Tell him that you need to reevaluate where things are going. Then stick to it. You'll hopefully find an answer in the silence that you impose, not the one he did.
posted by inturnaround at 7:00 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]
He sounds like he is not reciprocating towards you. You would cut him slack if he made an inappropriate joke, and apologized, but it does not sound as if he affords you the same courtesy. Why should you always have to be the person to ask to stay over? He should, as a person that cares about you, be willing to meet you halfway.
posted by PrettyKnitty at 7:04 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by PrettyKnitty at 7:04 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
He's in the wrong here, I'm pretty sure.
That said, you could tell him what you told us. That it's hard for you to communicate, but that you will try. He could, in turn, try to listen more so he's easier to talk to.
Separately, you could try therapy as a place to work out some of these issues and to strategize how to work on it.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:08 AM on July 29, 2013
That said, you could tell him what you told us. That it's hard for you to communicate, but that you will try. He could, in turn, try to listen more so he's easier to talk to.
Separately, you could try therapy as a place to work out some of these issues and to strategize how to work on it.
posted by J. Wilson at 7:08 AM on July 29, 2013
He told me that he likes when I spend the night at his house but that I shouldn't ask during the date - I should ask ahead of time. This is something we have talked about before. I tried explaining that it is hard for me to ask because when he says no I feel rejected, and I wish he would ask me to stay over sometimes.
This doesn't make any sense. He likes when you spend the night, but you have to ask him (and you have to ask him in the "right" way) and he won't ask you himself, and he makes you play this game where you try to say something to please him and he just shuts down.
Dude sounds really passive aggressive and is being a turd.
posted by phunniemee at 7:11 AM on July 29, 2013 [38 favorites]
This doesn't make any sense. He likes when you spend the night, but you have to ask him (and you have to ask him in the "right" way) and he won't ask you himself, and he makes you play this game where you try to say something to please him and he just shuts down.
Dude sounds really passive aggressive and is being a turd.
posted by phunniemee at 7:11 AM on July 29, 2013 [38 favorites]
So my basic problem is that I have an intensely difficult time expressing my needs or desires anyhow, and his non-response responses make me just feel terrible. How can I learn to better articulate how I feel without feeling really bad internally?
You've articulated this really well. If he's not hearing you, or worse, if he's hearing you and still freezing you out, then the communication issue is his and not yours.
From the communication (and lack thereof) that you describe and the scenarios where you are asking to stay over and he's telling you that you're not asking the right way ... I am thinking this is not a great relationship and it's not because you were in an abusive relationship.* No need to apologize multiple times, especially about something so light & silly & especially to someone who doesn't graciously accept your apology.
*Congratulations on breaking free and congratulations on making progress in therapy. I would gently suggest that in future questions you move this fact down from the opening line to an ending line for context. Your experience affects your perceptions and actions but it doesn't define you.
posted by headnsouth at 7:12 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
You've articulated this really well. If he's not hearing you, or worse, if he's hearing you and still freezing you out, then the communication issue is his and not yours.
From the communication (and lack thereof) that you describe and the scenarios where you are asking to stay over and he's telling you that you're not asking the right way ... I am thinking this is not a great relationship and it's not because you were in an abusive relationship.* No need to apologize multiple times, especially about something so light & silly & especially to someone who doesn't graciously accept your apology.
*Congratulations on breaking free and congratulations on making progress in therapy. I would gently suggest that in future questions you move this fact down from the opening line to an ending line for context. Your experience affects your perceptions and actions but it doesn't define you.
posted by headnsouth at 7:12 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I have a guess at what is going on, but I wish it weren't so.
I think he doesn't love you yet.
This relationship feels so wonderful to you because you've been in a terrible situation up to this point. (I know where you're coming from -- I was in an abusive relationship as well.) He's treated you like a normal, non-abusive guy, and it's been the most amazing thing EVER.
However, his actions sound like a guy who is not in love with you, and isn't yet your partner. He doesn't say he loves you. He doesn't act like he loves you. He isn't especially solicitous of your welfare. This may change over time, and it may not. There's really no way to tell at this point.
This doesn't necessarily have to do with the abuse, or you, or your habits, or anything -- he's just the first guy after the abuse, so the two things are connected in your mind. If you had met at another time or in another situation, the same thing might have happened.
I don't know if you need to take a break, but I suspect his heart isn't where yours is, and you shouldn't make any major commitments to having him in your life that could backfire (like moving or putting other plans on hold).
I would take a step back emotionally and involve yourself more in other things. If he comes forward, that's a good sign.
posted by 3491again at 7:12 AM on July 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think he doesn't love you yet.
This relationship feels so wonderful to you because you've been in a terrible situation up to this point. (I know where you're coming from -- I was in an abusive relationship as well.) He's treated you like a normal, non-abusive guy, and it's been the most amazing thing EVER.
However, his actions sound like a guy who is not in love with you, and isn't yet your partner. He doesn't say he loves you. He doesn't act like he loves you. He isn't especially solicitous of your welfare. This may change over time, and it may not. There's really no way to tell at this point.
This doesn't necessarily have to do with the abuse, or you, or your habits, or anything -- he's just the first guy after the abuse, so the two things are connected in your mind. If you had met at another time or in another situation, the same thing might have happened.
I don't know if you need to take a break, but I suspect his heart isn't where yours is, and you shouldn't make any major commitments to having him in your life that could backfire (like moving or putting other plans on hold).
I would take a step back emotionally and involve yourself more in other things. If he comes forward, that's a good sign.
posted by 3491again at 7:12 AM on July 29, 2013 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I tried to say that his lack of communication for the rest of the day hurt my feelings, but I am not sure I got that across.
How did you put this when you talked to him?
He told me that he likes when I spend the night at his house but that I shouldn't ask during the date - I should ask ahead of time. This is something we have talked about before.
Has he explained why that is? Why he prefers it that way? And when he did, did he present this as some universally correct procedure that everyone should abide by, or did he present it as just kind of something he's a little neurotic about and asked you to do it this way just to accommodate him? In other words, did he frame this as your problem or his problem?
I am glad when he articulates his needs and desires but he has trouble with that, too. He told me that a big issue he has is when people "linger" and that sometimes he wants people to leave but he will never tell them outright. He said that has never happened with me, which I believe, but I told him "if it ever does you need to tell me so that I can give you what you need" and he said he would not do that. I came up with alternatives - a jokey phrase, a code word, prescribed plans for our time together so that this won't happen - and he shut them all down.
Basically, either he realizes how nutty this is, or he does not.
If he does not, then he's someone who needs to spend a little more time working on understanding himself, his own motivations and whatnot. The things that make him tick. As is, he's a little oblivious about how he's coming across: he says that there are times when he wants someone to go away but will not tell them that, and then was clear that he will not tell you that either, so you'll have no way of knowing that you're getting on his nerves.
If he does understand how nutty this is, then he's a manipulative dickhead, and you know what to do.
Here's the thing. You say he has a hard time articulating his desires, but it sounds like he doesn't really. He expresses his desires, as imbalanced as they may be, and then he does not try to meet you halfway on them. He tells you what he wants like he's laying down the law. The way it sounds to me is that he's fine with having you around as long as he doesn't have to expend a minimum of effort. I found myself thinking it sounds like he's kind of checked out on this relationship, and then I got to this:
Also, this guy is great and until recently it was nothing but roses. This weirdness is recent and started after I told him I loved him in a really embarrassing way. He did not say it back, which I am totally cool with - which I said. I haven't said it again. Could this be connected?
Yeah, it could. It's not your fault, though, and I don't think you did anything wrong there. You were honest about how you felt. It's possible that getting to the "I love you" stage brought him up short and he's not sure how to handle that. It kind of sounds as though his reaction to this is to pull away. Again, I don't know that he's doing this on purpose - he might just be a piss-poor communicator and this is the result of that. Who knows.
Ultimately I think this is something you should talk to your therapist about, but I also kind of echo the above responses in that it might be a good idea to give the guy some space.
What sticks out at me is that you're talking about these situations in which he is stonewalling you and keeping you guessing - situations in which he's not meeting you halfway and imposing rules which require you to jump through hoops and then shutting down when you try to communicate about that - and then you're coming here and asking what you're doing wrong here, what you could do better, what techniques you should use to do the right thing and not make him freeze you out.
Does that sound familiar to you? It sounds kind of familiar to me.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:17 AM on July 29, 2013 [26 favorites]
How did you put this when you talked to him?
He told me that he likes when I spend the night at his house but that I shouldn't ask during the date - I should ask ahead of time. This is something we have talked about before.
Has he explained why that is? Why he prefers it that way? And when he did, did he present this as some universally correct procedure that everyone should abide by, or did he present it as just kind of something he's a little neurotic about and asked you to do it this way just to accommodate him? In other words, did he frame this as your problem or his problem?
I am glad when he articulates his needs and desires but he has trouble with that, too. He told me that a big issue he has is when people "linger" and that sometimes he wants people to leave but he will never tell them outright. He said that has never happened with me, which I believe, but I told him "if it ever does you need to tell me so that I can give you what you need" and he said he would not do that. I came up with alternatives - a jokey phrase, a code word, prescribed plans for our time together so that this won't happen - and he shut them all down.
Basically, either he realizes how nutty this is, or he does not.
If he does not, then he's someone who needs to spend a little more time working on understanding himself, his own motivations and whatnot. The things that make him tick. As is, he's a little oblivious about how he's coming across: he says that there are times when he wants someone to go away but will not tell them that, and then was clear that he will not tell you that either, so you'll have no way of knowing that you're getting on his nerves.
If he does understand how nutty this is, then he's a manipulative dickhead, and you know what to do.
Here's the thing. You say he has a hard time articulating his desires, but it sounds like he doesn't really. He expresses his desires, as imbalanced as they may be, and then he does not try to meet you halfway on them. He tells you what he wants like he's laying down the law. The way it sounds to me is that he's fine with having you around as long as he doesn't have to expend a minimum of effort. I found myself thinking it sounds like he's kind of checked out on this relationship, and then I got to this:
Also, this guy is great and until recently it was nothing but roses. This weirdness is recent and started after I told him I loved him in a really embarrassing way. He did not say it back, which I am totally cool with - which I said. I haven't said it again. Could this be connected?
Yeah, it could. It's not your fault, though, and I don't think you did anything wrong there. You were honest about how you felt. It's possible that getting to the "I love you" stage brought him up short and he's not sure how to handle that. It kind of sounds as though his reaction to this is to pull away. Again, I don't know that he's doing this on purpose - he might just be a piss-poor communicator and this is the result of that. Who knows.
Ultimately I think this is something you should talk to your therapist about, but I also kind of echo the above responses in that it might be a good idea to give the guy some space.
What sticks out at me is that you're talking about these situations in which he is stonewalling you and keeping you guessing - situations in which he's not meeting you halfway and imposing rules which require you to jump through hoops and then shutting down when you try to communicate about that - and then you're coming here and asking what you're doing wrong here, what you could do better, what techniques you should use to do the right thing and not make him freeze you out.
Does that sound familiar to you? It sounds kind of familiar to me.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:17 AM on July 29, 2013 [26 favorites]
I just am having a lot of trouble with this, and with another silly thing that happened between us.
I don't think what happened is silly and I don't think you should dismiss your concerns that way.
I am still a little confused because he is always talking about how he hardly ever gets offended.
In my experience, when people say things like this it is not actually true, more like something they would like to be true.
Maybe this guy is kind of awkward, set in his ways and needs a lot of structure (protective of his space, has to plan everything). If so, this is his issue and not yours. You shouldn't have to feel bad every time you inadvertently cross one of his boundaries.
Again, like with staying over, I feel like the burden is on me and that now I will be worrying about whether or not I am "smothering" him or if I am overstaying my welcome.
This may just be the price of admission for this relationship and it's OK not to want that.
posted by BibiRose at 7:30 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: However, his actions sound like a guy who is not in love with you, and isn't yet your partner. He doesn't say he loves you. He doesn't act like he loves you. He isn't especially solicitous of your welfare. This may change over time, and it may not. There's really no way to tell at this point.
Something to remember, though, is that you don't have to love someone to treat them well. Someone may not love you and therefore may not be solicitous of your feelings, but it is perfectly possible to find someone who does not yet love you/see themselves as your partner but also feels like it's wrong to freeze you out, worries about how you feel, etc. (This seems like a very generational thing - none of the behaviors this dude is describing would have been okay merely because he "did not yet love me" when I was in my twenties. "Love" was not framed as "the threshold for calling when you say you will, treating the other person nicely and not sleeping with others unless that has been agreed upon" the way it is now.)
Honestly, it's okay to tell a partner that their sincerely expressed request doesn't work for you. He has sincerely expressed that he wants you to follow a particular procedure about staying over; that procedure does not work for you. You don't have to do what he wants just because he expresses it and it does not involve gnawing your forearm off or something. For example, I once made a pretty silly request of my partner and my partner said "no, that's ridiculous" (which was a little harsh, okay) because it was a ridiculous request that came out of my expectations from some screwed up stuff in my childhood.
Admittedly, then you get to the marrow of the question: is the guy capable of modulating his requests in response to your requests? Not just "does he care enough about you to do this", but "is he at a place where he can detach from his minor desires and needs without flipping out" - those are two different things. You can care about someone a lot and still have all kinds of emotions tied up in your desires and wishes - "I can't admit to being wrong" or "no one loves me and I must take care of myself" or "a good relationship consists of the man/woman getting what he/she wants all the time because that's how it worked in my family", etc.
If he's not capable of arriving at a negotiated solution for routine relationship stuff - regardless of why this is - then this is not a viable relationship.
If you can say to him "gee, I want to make you comfortable in terms of staying over, leaving at a good time, etc, but because we don't have clear expectations for how that works, it is making me really anxious - how can we resolve this?" and he can hear that and respond in some acceptable way, you're good.
posted by Frowner at 7:30 AM on July 29, 2013 [17 favorites]
Something to remember, though, is that you don't have to love someone to treat them well. Someone may not love you and therefore may not be solicitous of your feelings, but it is perfectly possible to find someone who does not yet love you/see themselves as your partner but also feels like it's wrong to freeze you out, worries about how you feel, etc. (This seems like a very generational thing - none of the behaviors this dude is describing would have been okay merely because he "did not yet love me" when I was in my twenties. "Love" was not framed as "the threshold for calling when you say you will, treating the other person nicely and not sleeping with others unless that has been agreed upon" the way it is now.)
Honestly, it's okay to tell a partner that their sincerely expressed request doesn't work for you. He has sincerely expressed that he wants you to follow a particular procedure about staying over; that procedure does not work for you. You don't have to do what he wants just because he expresses it and it does not involve gnawing your forearm off or something. For example, I once made a pretty silly request of my partner and my partner said "no, that's ridiculous" (which was a little harsh, okay) because it was a ridiculous request that came out of my expectations from some screwed up stuff in my childhood.
Admittedly, then you get to the marrow of the question: is the guy capable of modulating his requests in response to your requests? Not just "does he care enough about you to do this", but "is he at a place where he can detach from his minor desires and needs without flipping out" - those are two different things. You can care about someone a lot and still have all kinds of emotions tied up in your desires and wishes - "I can't admit to being wrong" or "no one loves me and I must take care of myself" or "a good relationship consists of the man/woman getting what he/she wants all the time because that's how it worked in my family", etc.
If he's not capable of arriving at a negotiated solution for routine relationship stuff - regardless of why this is - then this is not a viable relationship.
If you can say to him "gee, I want to make you comfortable in terms of staying over, leaving at a good time, etc, but because we don't have clear expectations for how that works, it is making me really anxious - how can we resolve this?" and he can hear that and respond in some acceptable way, you're good.
posted by Frowner at 7:30 AM on July 29, 2013 [17 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks, y'all. This is really helpful. I think I need to say to him point-blank "When you freeze me out it is really a problem for me, so I need you to tell me that you are busy or something when you don't want to talk."
I tried to say that his lack of communication for the rest of the day hurt my feelings, but I am not sure I got that across.
I told him this by saying "I felt really bad when I hurt your feelings, and it would have been nice if you had texted me back to let me know it was OK, because I couldn't even tell if I had actually hurt your feelings or not." He did not respond to this, so I apologized for the joke again, and then he said he was over it again. He did not seem upset; he was being matter-of-fact but not rude.
did he present it as just kind of something he's a little neurotic about
Entirely. He said things like "I know this is really weird" and "I hope this is OK, because I have tried to change this about myself and I haven't been able to" and things like that. He was specifically talking about his desire to be able to know what is going to happen next, and his need for routine. He said that he does not like when I stay over on weekdays in particular because it makes his routine of getting to work different the next morning, and that is something he likes to mentally plan for in advance.
he says that there are times when he wants someone to go away but will not tell them that, and then was clear that he will not tell you that either, so you'll have no way of knowing that you're getting on his nerves.
Yes. I told him this, and described it very similarly to the way you describe it. He said, "I know, I don't know what to do about it" (this was after I had given him the suggestions I mentioned) and then I said, "Well, then, we have a problem that seems to not have a solution," and kind of laughed (I wasn't upset, it just seemed silly to me) and he also laughed and said "Yup" and then we moved on to another topic in the discussion. This bothers me a lot, because now it is my problem, and I know I can't solve it alone.
He tells you what he wants like he's laying down the law.
This is definitely due to my framing of the question, because I don't feel like that is how he communicates at all. I think that I glossed over a lot of things because the question seemed long enough already. He was very kind about everything, and he asked me if I was OK with things (so, for example, he said that I could stay the night if I really wanted to more than once in the conversation, but I didn't really want to stay at that point.)
You shouldn't have to feel bad every time you inadvertently cross one of his boundaries
I know, and that's why I need some guidance on this part, I think. I think his boundaries are a little funny and I'm not entirely on board with how he is expressing them, but I don't really have a problem with the boundaries at all. I think I feel bad when I accidentally cross them (which is going to happen, if for no other reason than his poor articulation of them makes me difficult to really understand them) partially because I was in an abusive relationship and I am still scared. So, I guess I'm asking about that a bit, too.
posted by sockermom at 7:45 AM on July 29, 2013
I tried to say that his lack of communication for the rest of the day hurt my feelings, but I am not sure I got that across.
I told him this by saying "I felt really bad when I hurt your feelings, and it would have been nice if you had texted me back to let me know it was OK, because I couldn't even tell if I had actually hurt your feelings or not." He did not respond to this, so I apologized for the joke again, and then he said he was over it again. He did not seem upset; he was being matter-of-fact but not rude.
did he present it as just kind of something he's a little neurotic about
Entirely. He said things like "I know this is really weird" and "I hope this is OK, because I have tried to change this about myself and I haven't been able to" and things like that. He was specifically talking about his desire to be able to know what is going to happen next, and his need for routine. He said that he does not like when I stay over on weekdays in particular because it makes his routine of getting to work different the next morning, and that is something he likes to mentally plan for in advance.
he says that there are times when he wants someone to go away but will not tell them that, and then was clear that he will not tell you that either, so you'll have no way of knowing that you're getting on his nerves.
Yes. I told him this, and described it very similarly to the way you describe it. He said, "I know, I don't know what to do about it" (this was after I had given him the suggestions I mentioned) and then I said, "Well, then, we have a problem that seems to not have a solution," and kind of laughed (I wasn't upset, it just seemed silly to me) and he also laughed and said "Yup" and then we moved on to another topic in the discussion. This bothers me a lot, because now it is my problem, and I know I can't solve it alone.
He tells you what he wants like he's laying down the law.
This is definitely due to my framing of the question, because I don't feel like that is how he communicates at all. I think that I glossed over a lot of things because the question seemed long enough already. He was very kind about everything, and he asked me if I was OK with things (so, for example, he said that I could stay the night if I really wanted to more than once in the conversation, but I didn't really want to stay at that point.)
You shouldn't have to feel bad every time you inadvertently cross one of his boundaries
I know, and that's why I need some guidance on this part, I think. I think his boundaries are a little funny and I'm not entirely on board with how he is expressing them, but I don't really have a problem with the boundaries at all. I think I feel bad when I accidentally cross them (which is going to happen, if for no other reason than his poor articulation of them makes me difficult to really understand them) partially because I was in an abusive relationship and I am still scared. So, I guess I'm asking about that a bit, too.
posted by sockermom at 7:45 AM on July 29, 2013
Best answer: Maybe this guy is kind of awkward, set in his ways and needs a lot of structure (protective of his space, has to plan everything).
I am an awkward space-protecting person who has a lot of semi-rigid ideas about how to make plans with my SO. However the big difference between our deal and what sounds like your deal is that it's really my responsibility to not make my rigid personal issues into my SO's problem. That is, if I like to have plans set up ahead of time, I need to work that out in a way that makes me comfortable but also clearly gets across that I adore my SO and want to see them and be with them. And if I can't reconcile the two of them, I need to get out of my comfort zone in order to make it clear that I cherish the relationship. In my opinion anyhow.
So I totally hear you, we're all weird and we have our own little things that we prefer and folks that spend a lot of time on the internet can sometimes seem like they are more nitpicky and fussy about stuff than other people. That said, I think there are ways to appreciate and honor everyone's special snowflakery without turning it into "So you have to accommodate my weirdnesses and I do not have to accommodate yours" which is what it sounds like is happening here.
You should both, at this point in a relationship, just having a lot of nice time together and sexy sleepover times and be in a glow of just being stoked to be with each other. This whole "Here's what I need to be comfy with women sleeping over" stuff is fine but if it's not coming with a healthy dollop of "But it's my own baggage so I'll try to work on it so that you and me can be together in a happy friendly way" then I'd say to heck with it.
It sounds like you're making a lot of progress which is great. But I think what a lot of us are telling you here is that there's still a lot of room between what you have now and what you could and should expect to get as an equal partner in a loving relationship so it's absolutely okay to
1. set up boundaries (hey please don't freeze me out like that)
2. be assertive for what you want (I need someone who will invite me to stay over and/or will stay at my place (does he stay at your place too? one-sided staying over is a red flag))
3. leave or re-evaluate a relationship because it's not meeting your emotional needs even if it's not abusive
In general, adults find ways to meet each other part way in healthy relationships and I'd ask yourself what his part-way contribution is here.
posted by jessamyn at 7:50 AM on July 29, 2013 [26 favorites]
I am an awkward space-protecting person who has a lot of semi-rigid ideas about how to make plans with my SO. However the big difference between our deal and what sounds like your deal is that it's really my responsibility to not make my rigid personal issues into my SO's problem. That is, if I like to have plans set up ahead of time, I need to work that out in a way that makes me comfortable but also clearly gets across that I adore my SO and want to see them and be with them. And if I can't reconcile the two of them, I need to get out of my comfort zone in order to make it clear that I cherish the relationship. In my opinion anyhow.
So I totally hear you, we're all weird and we have our own little things that we prefer and folks that spend a lot of time on the internet can sometimes seem like they are more nitpicky and fussy about stuff than other people. That said, I think there are ways to appreciate and honor everyone's special snowflakery without turning it into "So you have to accommodate my weirdnesses and I do not have to accommodate yours" which is what it sounds like is happening here.
You should both, at this point in a relationship, just having a lot of nice time together and sexy sleepover times and be in a glow of just being stoked to be with each other. This whole "Here's what I need to be comfy with women sleeping over" stuff is fine but if it's not coming with a healthy dollop of "But it's my own baggage so I'll try to work on it so that you and me can be together in a happy friendly way" then I'd say to heck with it.
It sounds like you're making a lot of progress which is great. But I think what a lot of us are telling you here is that there's still a lot of room between what you have now and what you could and should expect to get as an equal partner in a loving relationship so it's absolutely okay to
1. set up boundaries (hey please don't freeze me out like that)
2. be assertive for what you want (I need someone who will invite me to stay over and/or will stay at my place (does he stay at your place too? one-sided staying over is a red flag))
3. leave or re-evaluate a relationship because it's not meeting your emotional needs even if it's not abusive
In general, adults find ways to meet each other part way in healthy relationships and I'd ask yourself what his part-way contribution is here.
posted by jessamyn at 7:50 AM on July 29, 2013 [26 favorites]
I think I need to say to him point-blank "When you freeze me out it is really a problem for me, so I need you to tell me that you are busy or something when you don't want to talk."
Yes. You also need to not accept any answer that leaves you hanging. You don't have to be strident about it but you do need to speak up. For example:
I told him this, and described it very similarly to the way you describe it. He said, "I know, I don't know what to do about it" (this was after I had given him the suggestions I mentioned) and then I said, "Well, then, we have a problem that seems to not have a solution," and kind of laughed (I wasn't upset, it just seemed silly to me) and he also laughed and said "Yup" and then we moved on to another topic in the discussion. This bothers me a lot, because now it is my problem, and I know I can't solve it alone.
Any conversation whose result is the final sentence of the above paragraph is a conversation you're not done having. In a case like this, you have to assert your needs, which you can do by saying, "I get that this is your deal and you have a particular way you want to do things, but this leaves me never knowing if you want me to give you some alone time. If we don't have some sort of signal then I pretty much can't ever relax because I'll always be worrying on some level that you want me to go away. Those are your neuroses and these are mine. How can we meet halfway?"
Again, don't take "I don't know" for an answer. I understand that it can be hard to assert yourself and ask for what you want in the moment, but the cost of not doing so is a thousand little deaths by worry.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:59 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yes. You also need to not accept any answer that leaves you hanging. You don't have to be strident about it but you do need to speak up. For example:
I told him this, and described it very similarly to the way you describe it. He said, "I know, I don't know what to do about it" (this was after I had given him the suggestions I mentioned) and then I said, "Well, then, we have a problem that seems to not have a solution," and kind of laughed (I wasn't upset, it just seemed silly to me) and he also laughed and said "Yup" and then we moved on to another topic in the discussion. This bothers me a lot, because now it is my problem, and I know I can't solve it alone.
Any conversation whose result is the final sentence of the above paragraph is a conversation you're not done having. In a case like this, you have to assert your needs, which you can do by saying, "I get that this is your deal and you have a particular way you want to do things, but this leaves me never knowing if you want me to give you some alone time. If we don't have some sort of signal then I pretty much can't ever relax because I'll always be worrying on some level that you want me to go away. Those are your neuroses and these are mine. How can we meet halfway?"
Again, don't take "I don't know" for an answer. I understand that it can be hard to assert yourself and ask for what you want in the moment, but the cost of not doing so is a thousand little deaths by worry.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:59 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
You are accomodating too much.
For example, the solution to his problem about you staying over is: you will only stay over if invited. If you are not invited, you will leave right after sex.
Um, I wouldn't do that. But if you would...okay. I would NOT ask ahead of time, etc.
You are handing over power, and you're making excuses for your boyfriend.
"Oh no! He doesn't mean it like that. He's not yelling at me or anything."
Just because he's not yelling, or name calling, doesn't mean it isn't abusive.
Sweetie, I know you want this to work, but think about it, it's all about HIS comfort, isn't it. What about what YOU want?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:23 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
For example, the solution to his problem about you staying over is: you will only stay over if invited. If you are not invited, you will leave right after sex.
Um, I wouldn't do that. But if you would...okay. I would NOT ask ahead of time, etc.
You are handing over power, and you're making excuses for your boyfriend.
"Oh no! He doesn't mean it like that. He's not yelling at me or anything."
Just because he's not yelling, or name calling, doesn't mean it isn't abusive.
Sweetie, I know you want this to work, but think about it, it's all about HIS comfort, isn't it. What about what YOU want?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:23 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
When I was reading this, I kept wondering 'where is he meeting her halfway?' and I am kinda concerned I can't seem to find it. I meet my GF halfway all the time! (sometimes it means going 70 or even 95%, but that just makes up for all the many times she has met me 70 or 95%) So.. hard to say if he is just awkward and spooked, or awkward and too distant or awkward and a Dump Him candidate.
Anecdata: My ex had a LOT of unspoken boundary issues that were quite easy to step on. Unsurprisingly, I called them land mines and pretty quickly decided none of the good parts were worth tiptoeing through the danger zone.
Oh, and for communication: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-message can help.Though it sounds like you may be well on your way to using them effectively.
And remember: You can break up with someone for any reason you chose, at any time. This is ok and does not make you a bad person!
posted by Jacen at 8:23 AM on July 29, 2013
Anecdata: My ex had a LOT of unspoken boundary issues that were quite easy to step on. Unsurprisingly, I called them land mines and pretty quickly decided none of the good parts were worth tiptoeing through the danger zone.
Oh, and for communication: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-message can help.Though it sounds like you may be well on your way to using them effectively.
And remember: You can break up with someone for any reason you chose, at any time. This is ok and does not make you a bad person!
posted by Jacen at 8:23 AM on July 29, 2013
Just want to jump in again to say a couple things:
- Like Frowner said, this may not be about how much he likes you, but about how he treats people in general.
- More importantly, I am in a relationship that had these sorts of difficulties at the beginning, and still has some of them. It's hard for me to negotiate what I want, and it's hard for my bf to accommodate people. Both of these traits make it so that things are often a bit one-sided.
We've been doing this a while and we're starting to find ways to work on this together. He is way more accommodating than he was at the beginning, and I stand up for myself a lot more than I used to. We now have more fights but also more intimacy. It's been really good for me to get upset about something and know that he'll still be there and work through it with me -- I'd never been in a relationship where a fight didn't lead to immediate punishment or abandonment. So that's very good.
I have no idea where this will go, but I agree with the people who say that these are issues to watch out for, and that you are being too accommodating.
posted by 3491again at 8:34 AM on July 29, 2013
- Like Frowner said, this may not be about how much he likes you, but about how he treats people in general.
- More importantly, I am in a relationship that had these sorts of difficulties at the beginning, and still has some of them. It's hard for me to negotiate what I want, and it's hard for my bf to accommodate people. Both of these traits make it so that things are often a bit one-sided.
We've been doing this a while and we're starting to find ways to work on this together. He is way more accommodating than he was at the beginning, and I stand up for myself a lot more than I used to. We now have more fights but also more intimacy. It's been really good for me to get upset about something and know that he'll still be there and work through it with me -- I'd never been in a relationship where a fight didn't lead to immediate punishment or abandonment. So that's very good.
I have no idea where this will go, but I agree with the people who say that these are issues to watch out for, and that you are being too accommodating.
posted by 3491again at 8:34 AM on July 29, 2013
Yes, you are being too accommodating and doing way too much of the heavy lifting. The bit where he said 'I'm over it'? That made me seriously pissed off on your behalf. That's a very dismissive way to treat someone who's just had the guts to make themselves vulnerable by saying 'Behaviour XYZ hurt me'.
I think you're overcompensating because you think, 'Oh, my past abusive relationship has warped my perspective. Nope - trust your instincts. You're not the problem here. You sound cool; he sounds selfish.
posted by Salamander at 8:42 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
I think you're overcompensating because you think, 'Oh, my past abusive relationship has warped my perspective. Nope - trust your instincts. You're not the problem here. You sound cool; he sounds selfish.
posted by Salamander at 8:42 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
It shouldn't take this much work to communicate at 3 months, and you are doing all the heavy lifting while he just shrugs and makes no effort. The thing is, it'll never get better than this. If it's not easy three months in, it never will be.
Everybody deserves to be with a caring, communicative partner who's eager to carry his part of the load, but I think women with a history of abuse need even more stringent standards there than women who are generally more assertive.
Don't hook yourself to damaged goods and people who are bad at relationships because that's all you think you can get or deserve. Your life will be easier if you just make an agreement with yourself that you will not date fixer-uppers, and that being single is preferable to having your feelings manhandled by someone who may be a generally not-bad person but is not good at other people's feelings. You can, to a limited and highly-boundary-structured degree, be friends with people like that, but avoid them as lovers.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:50 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Everybody deserves to be with a caring, communicative partner who's eager to carry his part of the load, but I think women with a history of abuse need even more stringent standards there than women who are generally more assertive.
Don't hook yourself to damaged goods and people who are bad at relationships because that's all you think you can get or deserve. Your life will be easier if you just make an agreement with yourself that you will not date fixer-uppers, and that being single is preferable to having your feelings manhandled by someone who may be a generally not-bad person but is not good at other people's feelings. You can, to a limited and highly-boundary-structured degree, be friends with people like that, but avoid them as lovers.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:50 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
Many of the answers above seem to be as if a relationship is some sort of business contract and negotiation and placing of blame are the key skills needed. I'd like to answer from a different perspective.
People are strange. Even when you're not a stranger. (and you've only been together 3 months.) No one is always able to do what they would like in a situation. Chances are, his statement about knowing in advance whether you want to stay over was not some expression of a control freak but an attempt to ask for what he wanted in an awkward way that probably even surprised him in how it came out. He' is not comfortable expressing what he wants so it comes out either too strong or too weak or not at all.
Similarly, he wasn't trying to punish you with his air silence when your "stupid joke" hurt his feelings. He just didn't know how to respond from his feelings of hurt/anger and it took him a while to get over it. He then wanted to move on because to revisit it would return him to that paralyzed state that he'd finally escaped with the passage of time. Yes, we could call him names like "immature" and suggest you trade up in the relationship market, but that's not what relationships are about.
He doesn't love you or not love you in some binary way that he is either withholding from you or refusing to share. Your joke would not have hurt his feelings if he didn't have feelings for you to hurt, but he doesn't know how to express these feelings or what name to give it. Again, this isn't some sign that he is defective and that you should DTMFA.
"Too accommodating" is negotiation speak, not relationship speak. Still, characterizing your joke as "stupid" so as to take the blame in his hurt is also in this category. There seems to be too much at stake for both of you to be able to talk about the tensions that arise between you in ways that could work some of this stuff out. Indeed, he may have felt too accommodating when he didn't retaliate (his silence wasn't really that) when you dismissed him for some celeb. When there's so much at stake it becomes hard to work things out because of the potential loss that seems to outweigh any minor gain for some seemingly trivial issue but this is the direction in which you both need to move.
The way to do this is to try and reassure each other when you bring something up so that you can each feel safe enough to reply non-defensively. Learning to do this takes practice and, unfortunately, time--something an AskMe reply can't easily provide.
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:56 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
People are strange. Even when you're not a stranger. (and you've only been together 3 months.) No one is always able to do what they would like in a situation. Chances are, his statement about knowing in advance whether you want to stay over was not some expression of a control freak but an attempt to ask for what he wanted in an awkward way that probably even surprised him in how it came out. He' is not comfortable expressing what he wants so it comes out either too strong or too weak or not at all.
Similarly, he wasn't trying to punish you with his air silence when your "stupid joke" hurt his feelings. He just didn't know how to respond from his feelings of hurt/anger and it took him a while to get over it. He then wanted to move on because to revisit it would return him to that paralyzed state that he'd finally escaped with the passage of time. Yes, we could call him names like "immature" and suggest you trade up in the relationship market, but that's not what relationships are about.
He doesn't love you or not love you in some binary way that he is either withholding from you or refusing to share. Your joke would not have hurt his feelings if he didn't have feelings for you to hurt, but he doesn't know how to express these feelings or what name to give it. Again, this isn't some sign that he is defective and that you should DTMFA.
"Too accommodating" is negotiation speak, not relationship speak. Still, characterizing your joke as "stupid" so as to take the blame in his hurt is also in this category. There seems to be too much at stake for both of you to be able to talk about the tensions that arise between you in ways that could work some of this stuff out. Indeed, he may have felt too accommodating when he didn't retaliate (his silence wasn't really that) when you dismissed him for some celeb. When there's so much at stake it becomes hard to work things out because of the potential loss that seems to outweigh any minor gain for some seemingly trivial issue but this is the direction in which you both need to move.
The way to do this is to try and reassure each other when you bring something up so that you can each feel safe enough to reply non-defensively. Learning to do this takes practice and, unfortunately, time--something an AskMe reply can't easily provide.
posted by Obscure Reference at 8:56 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
From this perspective, it doesn't seem like anyone involved here is truly a bad actor. He apparently has boundaries and preferences that would turn off a lot of potential partners, but that is not a crime, and it's not a personality flaw. It just is. You have boundaries and preferences that probably a larger percentage of people would be happy to work with, but he isn't one of those people.
You're fighting to meet him halfway on his boundaries and preferences, he's apparently not fighting to meet you halfway on yours. But here's the thing: meeting HIM halfway is making you unhappy. So it really doesn't matter whether he meets you halfway. That just leads to you still being half unhappy.
It seems like maybe you two are just not super-compatible right now, given where both of you are at emotionally.
posted by like_a_friend at 9:01 AM on July 29, 2013
You're fighting to meet him halfway on his boundaries and preferences, he's apparently not fighting to meet you halfway on yours. But here's the thing: meeting HIM halfway is making you unhappy. So it really doesn't matter whether he meets you halfway. That just leads to you still being half unhappy.
It seems like maybe you two are just not super-compatible right now, given where both of you are at emotionally.
posted by like_a_friend at 9:01 AM on July 29, 2013
I'm not sure that you're describing an adult, mature relationship. Specifically, from what you say, he doesn't seem to be behaving like a compassionate, mature adult who is as mindful of your feelings and imperfections as much as his, and who is willing to empathize as much as you are, and who is willing to communicate clearly and respectfully in a way that potentially sets the groundwork for a healthy, long-term relationship. I'm not saying that you should break up with him immediately, but I do want to encourage you to take a more objective look at what is going on here, and if there are any echoes of past relationships here that would suggest a pattern you may be repeating.
The thing is, learning what a healthy relationship looks like, after a long pattern of unhealthy relationships, can take a lot of time and practice. A new relationship can appear to be quite different from a previous relationship, but that doesn't automatically mean it's healthy. One of the hallmarks of a healthy relationship is that it's a dynamic in which you generally feel good about yourself and good about the other person, even when you hit these sorts of potholes along the way. I frequently recommend this book, because it helped me tremendously in learning how to distinguish what was healthy and what isn't (and to learn communication skills around conflict that I'd never previously learned).
I wish you all the best, and send you lots of hugs and high-fives for your courage and strength in leaving your abuser.
posted by scody at 9:08 AM on July 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
The thing is, learning what a healthy relationship looks like, after a long pattern of unhealthy relationships, can take a lot of time and practice. A new relationship can appear to be quite different from a previous relationship, but that doesn't automatically mean it's healthy. One of the hallmarks of a healthy relationship is that it's a dynamic in which you generally feel good about yourself and good about the other person, even when you hit these sorts of potholes along the way. I frequently recommend this book, because it helped me tremendously in learning how to distinguish what was healthy and what isn't (and to learn communication skills around conflict that I'd never previously learned).
I wish you all the best, and send you lots of hugs and high-fives for your courage and strength in leaving your abuser.
posted by scody at 9:08 AM on July 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
There are a lot of things here that bring up red flags to me but this is the one I'm going to speak to:
I told him this by saying "I felt really bad when I hurt your feelings, and it would have been nice if you had texted me back to let me know it was OK, because I couldn't even tell if I had actually hurt your feelings or not." He did not respond to this, so I apologized for the joke again, and then he said he was over it again. He did not seem upset; he was being matter-of-fact but not rude.
He did not respond when you were vulnerable and said that you were sorry. Here was an opportunity to create some intimacy - to have some give and take and for him to see that you needed something from him in this particular instant. Instead, he stonewalled you (even if it was for 30 seconds, it was still stonewalling) by just not responding to you saying that. That made you go on further to "make up" for it. Seriously? All this over a joke of you saying you'd sleep with a celebrity?
Now imagine it a different way. What if you made the joke and he used his words and said, "that hurt my feelings" and you said "i'm sorry" and then he said something else to kind of close the circuit (either a joke or a "ok, i just don't like to think about my girlfriend sleeping with anyone else but me!"). How does that feel in your gut?
So maybe an idea for going forward is not to just parse what he actually did say but to imagine how the scenario might go differently in a more healthy way. Then compare the two scenarios and see how far apart they are.
Can I also say that I think you are doing a great job on all of this? You are taking care of yourself by taking this slowly which is so very smart.
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:16 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
I told him this by saying "I felt really bad when I hurt your feelings, and it would have been nice if you had texted me back to let me know it was OK, because I couldn't even tell if I had actually hurt your feelings or not." He did not respond to this, so I apologized for the joke again, and then he said he was over it again. He did not seem upset; he was being matter-of-fact but not rude.
He did not respond when you were vulnerable and said that you were sorry. Here was an opportunity to create some intimacy - to have some give and take and for him to see that you needed something from him in this particular instant. Instead, he stonewalled you (even if it was for 30 seconds, it was still stonewalling) by just not responding to you saying that. That made you go on further to "make up" for it. Seriously? All this over a joke of you saying you'd sleep with a celebrity?
Now imagine it a different way. What if you made the joke and he used his words and said, "that hurt my feelings" and you said "i'm sorry" and then he said something else to kind of close the circuit (either a joke or a "ok, i just don't like to think about my girlfriend sleeping with anyone else but me!"). How does that feel in your gut?
So maybe an idea for going forward is not to just parse what he actually did say but to imagine how the scenario might go differently in a more healthy way. Then compare the two scenarios and see how far apart they are.
Can I also say that I think you are doing a great job on all of this? You are taking care of yourself by taking this slowly which is so very smart.
posted by dawkins_7 at 9:16 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]
You're doing really well. He's the one with communication issues. There's nothing you can do until he learns to communicate like an adult; telling you what he wants and needs, not giving you the silent treatment, etc.
posted by peacrow at 10:09 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by peacrow at 10:09 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Okay, as for the first thing, anybody would feel really bad if thy accidentally hurt someone's feelings, then they apologised, and then got *ignored for ages*. *Anyone would feel bad about that.*
I guess it's possible that his social skills are so bad that he was unequipped to deal with that, but in that case, I put it to you that he may not be good enough for you.
If it happens again, I would suggest that you send your apology, and *don't follow it up by chasing him with more texts*. Really. No matter what. Even if you're afraid it's the last thing you'll ever say to each other - trust me on this, I can tell you from personal experience, you'll be well rid of him if that turns out to be the case. Don't worry that you said something so egregious that he just can't get over it. You would *know* it if you'd said something that bad.
It is not too much to ask for him to have an average amount of sensitivity and social skill. We're socialised to believe that men are very impaired in these matters, but actually, they aren't.
posted by tel3path at 10:50 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
I guess it's possible that his social skills are so bad that he was unequipped to deal with that, but in that case, I put it to you that he may not be good enough for you.
If it happens again, I would suggest that you send your apology, and *don't follow it up by chasing him with more texts*. Really. No matter what. Even if you're afraid it's the last thing you'll ever say to each other - trust me on this, I can tell you from personal experience, you'll be well rid of him if that turns out to be the case. Don't worry that you said something so egregious that he just can't get over it. You would *know* it if you'd said something that bad.
It is not too much to ask for him to have an average amount of sensitivity and social skill. We're socialised to believe that men are very impaired in these matters, but actually, they aren't.
posted by tel3path at 10:50 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]
This is what stood out to me most in your initial question:
He told me that a big issue he has is when people "linger" and that sometimes he wants people to leave but he will never tell them outright.
This is VERY passive-aggressive, and it makes his problem into your problem - which you acknowledge in your follow-up ("This bothers me a lot, because now it is my problem, and I know I can't solve it alone.")
This kind of passive-aggressive non-communication is a dealbreaker for me, personally. And, the way he didn't respond to your texts shows that it's not an isolated incident - he isn't good at communication. It's clear from your question (this question and your other questions) that you have a better understanding than he does of healthy communication.
So, I'd talk to your therapist and your friends, and explore whether this relationship is a net positive in your life at the moment. Scody's comment about healthy relationships reminds me that one sign of a good relationship, in my experience, is that it brings out the best (most loving/most patient/most kind/etc) part of me, and the best part of my partner. Perhaps you could ask yourself if you think this relationship is bringing out the best in you & your boyfriend.
And, remember, it often takes a couple months to figure out if a relationship works - it's very normal/common for people to date for a couple months and then break up just because they're not a good match, or have different communication styles, or prefer to spend time in different ways.
posted by insectosaurus at 10:52 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
He told me that a big issue he has is when people "linger" and that sometimes he wants people to leave but he will never tell them outright.
This is VERY passive-aggressive, and it makes his problem into your problem - which you acknowledge in your follow-up ("This bothers me a lot, because now it is my problem, and I know I can't solve it alone.")
This kind of passive-aggressive non-communication is a dealbreaker for me, personally. And, the way he didn't respond to your texts shows that it's not an isolated incident - he isn't good at communication. It's clear from your question (this question and your other questions) that you have a better understanding than he does of healthy communication.
So, I'd talk to your therapist and your friends, and explore whether this relationship is a net positive in your life at the moment. Scody's comment about healthy relationships reminds me that one sign of a good relationship, in my experience, is that it brings out the best (most loving/most patient/most kind/etc) part of me, and the best part of my partner. Perhaps you could ask yourself if you think this relationship is bringing out the best in you & your boyfriend.
And, remember, it often takes a couple months to figure out if a relationship works - it's very normal/common for people to date for a couple months and then break up just because they're not a good match, or have different communication styles, or prefer to spend time in different ways.
posted by insectosaurus at 10:52 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]
You shouldn't have to feel bad every time you inadvertently cross one of his boundaries
> I know, and that's why I need some guidance on this part, I think. I think his boundaries are a little funny and I'm not entirely on board with how he is expressing them, but I don't really have a problem with the boundaries at all. I think I feel bad when I accidentally cross them (which is going to happen, if for no other reason than his poor articulation of them makes me difficult to really understand them) partially because I was in an abusive relationship and I am still scared. So, I guess I'm asking about that a bit, too.
Your taking responsibility for his inability to articulate his boundaries is a HUGE RED FLAG here. He needs to put on his big boy underwear and tell you what he needs from you in the moment. Do NOT let him manipulate you (even if he's doing it unconsciously) into thinking that you have to be a mind reader; that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation that's always going to leave you insecure.
Adults who are ready to be in real relationships need to be able to state their needs clearly. This man has just told you that he's not able to do that. Given your background (and I share that background, so I'm speaking from experience), I worry A LOT that this particular guy, if he doesn't get his shit together, is going to rope you into doing his emotional work for him.
Because the thing is, people who were in abusive relationship are actually REALLY GOOD at mind reading; we had to be, because we had to constantly monitor our abusers' moods, gestures, tone of voice, etc. in order to know whether we were safe for the evening. In healthy relationships, that level of monitoring should not exist, because each adult should take responsibility for either satisfying or articulating their own needs. Your boyfriend is putting you in a walking-on-eggshells position that's certainly unfair and unpleasant, very certainly not ok, and seemingly echoes the one-down position that your abusive ex also had you in. This is not something you need to change (other than being willing to walk away), it's something he needs to fix.
posted by jaguar at 1:51 PM on July 29, 2013 [12 favorites]
> I know, and that's why I need some guidance on this part, I think. I think his boundaries are a little funny and I'm not entirely on board with how he is expressing them, but I don't really have a problem with the boundaries at all. I think I feel bad when I accidentally cross them (which is going to happen, if for no other reason than his poor articulation of them makes me difficult to really understand them) partially because I was in an abusive relationship and I am still scared. So, I guess I'm asking about that a bit, too.
Your taking responsibility for his inability to articulate his boundaries is a HUGE RED FLAG here. He needs to put on his big boy underwear and tell you what he needs from you in the moment. Do NOT let him manipulate you (even if he's doing it unconsciously) into thinking that you have to be a mind reader; that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation that's always going to leave you insecure.
Adults who are ready to be in real relationships need to be able to state their needs clearly. This man has just told you that he's not able to do that. Given your background (and I share that background, so I'm speaking from experience), I worry A LOT that this particular guy, if he doesn't get his shit together, is going to rope you into doing his emotional work for him.
Because the thing is, people who were in abusive relationship are actually REALLY GOOD at mind reading; we had to be, because we had to constantly monitor our abusers' moods, gestures, tone of voice, etc. in order to know whether we were safe for the evening. In healthy relationships, that level of monitoring should not exist, because each adult should take responsibility for either satisfying or articulating their own needs. Your boyfriend is putting you in a walking-on-eggshells position that's certainly unfair and unpleasant, very certainly not ok, and seemingly echoes the one-down position that your abusive ex also had you in. This is not something you need to change (other than being willing to walk away), it's something he needs to fix.
posted by jaguar at 1:51 PM on July 29, 2013 [12 favorites]
My first communication recommendation in general is that if you feel bad about something you say to someone, don't try to deal with it over text message. Text message is a crappy medium for this. When something like this happens with someone you care about, pick up the phone or send an email where you can more fully explain yourself, or wait until you can discuss it with him in person.
As far as this relationship is concerned, it's not on you to figure out how to not feel bad when he treats you in ways that make you feel bad. I get the feeling from your descriptions that he isn't up for the sort of relationship you want. I find it quite odd that he never invites you over, leaving it up to you to risk rejection every time you express wanting to spend the night with him and setting strict guidelines on when you are allowed to do this. This doesn't bode well.
posted by wondermouse at 2:57 PM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
As far as this relationship is concerned, it's not on you to figure out how to not feel bad when he treats you in ways that make you feel bad. I get the feeling from your descriptions that he isn't up for the sort of relationship you want. I find it quite odd that he never invites you over, leaving it up to you to risk rejection every time you express wanting to spend the night with him and setting strict guidelines on when you are allowed to do this. This doesn't bode well.
posted by wondermouse at 2:57 PM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is another abusive relationship in the making, and I think you should move on.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 6:49 PM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 6:49 PM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I've been thinking about this question a lot, so I hope you forgive my rambling a bit more:
All the therapists and books and websites tell women coming out of abusive situations that we need to develop and enforce "healthy boundaries," which is true, but a lot of times they forget to tell us that we also need to surround ourselves with other people with healthy boundaries, especially when looking for romantic partners.
So what do healthy boundaries look like? Someone with healthy boundaries should be aware of her own needs and desires, take responsibility for expressing them in a clear, honest, and timely manner to others, and reserve the right to take action if someone crosses them, anywhere on the spectrum from a simple "Hey, that hurt me" all the way up to ending the relationship. And being able to work through the full spectrum is important; someone who refuses to walk away from a repeated-boundary-violator doesn't have great boundaries, just as someone who can't make a simple "Hey, that hurt me" statement and instead walks away doesn't have great boundaries.
So that's our side of the fence -- we've identified what we need; expressed it clearly, honestly, and appropriately; and we're ready to enforce as appropriate. This is exactly what you did when you let your boyfriend know that his actions hurt you: You identified your emotional need, expressed it clearly and immediately, and asked him to change his behavior in the future.
Now what happens if we get together with a partner with unhealthy boundaries? I've found that most abusive partners are abusive precisely because they are unable to identify, express, or enforce their own boundaries in any sort of healthy way. They project their own needs onto their partner or refuse to do the emotional work of figuring out what they want; they expect a partner to treat them like a mother would treat a two-year-old and anticipate their every need or desire. Since they don't identify their own needs, they don't take responsibility for expressing them in anything resembling an emotionally mature way, and often again resort to the two-year-old's technique of throwing a tantrum. All of this, so far, is the "passive" side of passive-aggressive; the "aggressive" side comes in (and oh boy does it come in) when they get to the "rights of enforcement" part of the process. Rather than being flexible and confident enough to use the full spectrum of enforcement, they jump right past the walking-away end of the scale and into full-on abusive nastiness.
Basically, they refuse to take responsibility for their needs, and they over-enforce their rights to their needs.
Which leaves the abused partner in a situation where, to avoid abuse, we take on the responsibility for anticipating their needs and give up our rights to enforce our own boundaries. We likely have also given up on identifying our own needs, because expressing them generally led to abuse, so what's the point?
Where does this leave us after we're out of the abusive situation? We're basically primed to ignore our own needs, take responsibility for anticipating other people's needs, and be fearful of violating other people unexpressed boundaries and expressing our own. There's very little way to be a confident, happy person with that configuration.
Which means that we need to partner with people who not only enforce their rights but also fulfill their responsibilities so that we don't do that emotional work for them and so that we can be confident in expressing our own needs. There are many, many, many non-abusive people who have poor boundaries, and so if you partner with one of those people you can have a non-abusive relationship, but you're likely to reinforce all the coping behaviors you developed as an abused partner -- all the insecurity, all the fear, all the eggshell-walking, all the deferring.
On the other hand, if you partner with someone who can identify his own needs, express them clearly and honestly and in a timely manner, and let you know in appropriate ways when you've transgressed them (because, as you noted, you will, because we all do from time to time), then you can let that guard down and find your own confidence.
This guy you're dating may be a wonderful human being, but he's reinforcing negative behaviors in you. Maybe he can fix it, maybe he can't, but I think you need to make a commitment to yourself to find a relationship in which you feel secure, loved, grounded, and confident.
posted by jaguar at 10:54 AM on July 30, 2013 [12 favorites]
All the therapists and books and websites tell women coming out of abusive situations that we need to develop and enforce "healthy boundaries," which is true, but a lot of times they forget to tell us that we also need to surround ourselves with other people with healthy boundaries, especially when looking for romantic partners.
So what do healthy boundaries look like? Someone with healthy boundaries should be aware of her own needs and desires, take responsibility for expressing them in a clear, honest, and timely manner to others, and reserve the right to take action if someone crosses them, anywhere on the spectrum from a simple "Hey, that hurt me" all the way up to ending the relationship. And being able to work through the full spectrum is important; someone who refuses to walk away from a repeated-boundary-violator doesn't have great boundaries, just as someone who can't make a simple "Hey, that hurt me" statement and instead walks away doesn't have great boundaries.
So that's our side of the fence -- we've identified what we need; expressed it clearly, honestly, and appropriately; and we're ready to enforce as appropriate. This is exactly what you did when you let your boyfriend know that his actions hurt you: You identified your emotional need, expressed it clearly and immediately, and asked him to change his behavior in the future.
Now what happens if we get together with a partner with unhealthy boundaries? I've found that most abusive partners are abusive precisely because they are unable to identify, express, or enforce their own boundaries in any sort of healthy way. They project their own needs onto their partner or refuse to do the emotional work of figuring out what they want; they expect a partner to treat them like a mother would treat a two-year-old and anticipate their every need or desire. Since they don't identify their own needs, they don't take responsibility for expressing them in anything resembling an emotionally mature way, and often again resort to the two-year-old's technique of throwing a tantrum. All of this, so far, is the "passive" side of passive-aggressive; the "aggressive" side comes in (and oh boy does it come in) when they get to the "rights of enforcement" part of the process. Rather than being flexible and confident enough to use the full spectrum of enforcement, they jump right past the walking-away end of the scale and into full-on abusive nastiness.
Basically, they refuse to take responsibility for their needs, and they over-enforce their rights to their needs.
Which leaves the abused partner in a situation where, to avoid abuse, we take on the responsibility for anticipating their needs and give up our rights to enforce our own boundaries. We likely have also given up on identifying our own needs, because expressing them generally led to abuse, so what's the point?
Where does this leave us after we're out of the abusive situation? We're basically primed to ignore our own needs, take responsibility for anticipating other people's needs, and be fearful of violating other people unexpressed boundaries and expressing our own. There's very little way to be a confident, happy person with that configuration.
Which means that we need to partner with people who not only enforce their rights but also fulfill their responsibilities so that we don't do that emotional work for them and so that we can be confident in expressing our own needs. There are many, many, many non-abusive people who have poor boundaries, and so if you partner with one of those people you can have a non-abusive relationship, but you're likely to reinforce all the coping behaviors you developed as an abused partner -- all the insecurity, all the fear, all the eggshell-walking, all the deferring.
On the other hand, if you partner with someone who can identify his own needs, express them clearly and honestly and in a timely manner, and let you know in appropriate ways when you've transgressed them (because, as you noted, you will, because we all do from time to time), then you can let that guard down and find your own confidence.
This guy you're dating may be a wonderful human being, but he's reinforcing negative behaviors in you. Maybe he can fix it, maybe he can't, but I think you need to make a commitment to yourself to find a relationship in which you feel secure, loved, grounded, and confident.
posted by jaguar at 10:54 AM on July 30, 2013 [12 favorites]
Yeah what jaguar said. They make you responsible for their stuff at the expense of yours. They are never responsible for their own actions, you are always responsible for your own actions *and* you made them do it.
posted by tel3path at 1:42 PM on July 30, 2013
posted by tel3path at 1:42 PM on July 30, 2013
Response by poster: Just an update. We talked about these issues a lot more, and both of us feel better. You gave me a lot to think about and a helpful script to work with; thank you. We worked out a plan for sleepovers that we are both comfortable with, discussed the stonewalling, and I also told him that I need a partner who is not afraid to set his own boundaries.
I asked him if we could talk about stuff ahead of time, gave him a heads-up about why, and I think this gave him the time to think about it before we talked, which I believe made the conversation more successful for both of us.
I also think that I immediately jump to "how can I fix this" because my of my past. I told my boyfriend this and he said, no, these are problems that we need to solve together - and then we started doing just that.
My eyes are very wide open with respect to abuse. This is not an abusive relationship in the making. It may turn out that we are simply not compatible, because of communication styles or other issues, but if that is the case, I will break up with him. I just think I need a bit more data first.
posted by sockermom at 6:07 AM on August 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
I asked him if we could talk about stuff ahead of time, gave him a heads-up about why, and I think this gave him the time to think about it before we talked, which I believe made the conversation more successful for both of us.
I also think that I immediately jump to "how can I fix this" because my of my past. I told my boyfriend this and he said, no, these are problems that we need to solve together - and then we started doing just that.
My eyes are very wide open with respect to abuse. This is not an abusive relationship in the making. It may turn out that we are simply not compatible, because of communication styles or other issues, but if that is the case, I will break up with him. I just think I need a bit more data first.
posted by sockermom at 6:07 AM on August 3, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Another update: he dumped me out of nowhere yesterday. I am still in shock. He apparently had a bunch of issues with our relationship that he didn't tell me until after he decided to break up with me. We never had a chance to work on these problems, because he was saying things but feeling the opposite of what he said. (So, he felt we spent too much time together but asked to spend more time together often.)
I'm going to be single for a good long while after this, because I am surprised that I didn't see the signs or listen to y'all - again. Oof.
posted by sockermom at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm going to be single for a good long while after this, because I am surprised that I didn't see the signs or listen to y'all - again. Oof.
posted by sockermom at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm so sorry you had to go through that, sockermom. Be kind to yourself.
posted by jaguar at 10:42 PM on October 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by jaguar at 10:42 PM on October 15, 2013 [1 favorite]
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Someone who gives you the silent treatment, and then refuses to allow you to apologize and to forgive you (especially for something dumb) is manipulating you. You are not a child, he doesn't get to punish you.
Also, his whole control thing about you staying over. Total Red Flag. It IS a control thing, and it's stupid. I can't wrap my head around making elaborate plans to spend the night. You are dating and in an exclusive relationship right? Isn't it a foregone conclusion that if you have sex, you'll be staying over?
This is not a good relationship, it's just infinitely better than your last one.
In a good relationship you are not torturing and blaming yourself for stupid shit.
I think it's time to take a break from him. Give it a couple weeks. Tell him you need some time to yourself.
Talk to your therapist about it, I'm sure he/she will agree with me.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:55 AM on July 29, 2013 [68 favorites]