Is this believable or should I walk away?
June 16, 2013 11:11 PM Subscribe
Met a truly stunningly beautiful girl in her early 20s a little over a week ago. I'm in my early 30s, but look like I'm in my mid 20s and was alone at a bar, she with some other guy. After a while she starts chatting me up, to my disbelief (I'm pretty good looking, and ever so often get approached by women, but never by any one this hot). We have a great conversation, in which it's revealed that guy is just a friend. I eventually get introduced to the friend and he gets worked into the conversation, we're all having a good time, but its mainly her and I just talking for about 2 hours. She gives me her name, number, and a passionate goodbye kiss in the middle of the bar and in front of her friend, and then they leave together. I'm feeling like I won the lottery and proceed to friend her on facebook the next day.
She accepts the FB request, and even posts a vague update about meeting a guy the night before, but unfortunately my attempts at communication with her and trying to set up a date throughout the week were met with the predictable flakiness of a girl her age and her looks, and by this most recent Saturday I'd written it off as just a fun evening. Well she calls me Saturday night to meet her at a bar, and I go cause I've no other plans. She excitedly greets me, we have a beer, a shot, good conversation, and then she very quickly starts making out with me and even groping me. At this point I have to push her back a bit cause while I'm liking it, its a bit too public for that sort thing. She ends up going inside saying she'll be right back, but doesn't come back out for a while. I go in looking for her, and see her and the same friend of hers from the week before headed up stairs to the dance floor, so I follow them up, though they don't see me. When they get to the top he says something to her and they kiss on the lips. He walks off (without seeing me) but before she can follow I grab her arm and ask wtf was that. She says "Oh he's one of my best friends, he's like a brother to me". Not too convinced, and quite frankly pissed off I turn around and walk out. I text her early this afternoon (Sunday) asking for an explanation. She responds much later in the evening saying she had told him to come meet us up and when he got there he was drunk, feeling sorry for him self for always being the third wheel, and she was just trying to cheer him up with that kiss. This girl is so cool to talk to and hang out with, and so unbelievably attractive, I just don't trust myself to judge her story clearly. Is it plausible or should I just walk away?
She accepts the FB request, and even posts a vague update about meeting a guy the night before, but unfortunately my attempts at communication with her and trying to set up a date throughout the week were met with the predictable flakiness of a girl her age and her looks, and by this most recent Saturday I'd written it off as just a fun evening. Well she calls me Saturday night to meet her at a bar, and I go cause I've no other plans. She excitedly greets me, we have a beer, a shot, good conversation, and then she very quickly starts making out with me and even groping me. At this point I have to push her back a bit cause while I'm liking it, its a bit too public for that sort thing. She ends up going inside saying she'll be right back, but doesn't come back out for a while. I go in looking for her, and see her and the same friend of hers from the week before headed up stairs to the dance floor, so I follow them up, though they don't see me. When they get to the top he says something to her and they kiss on the lips. He walks off (without seeing me) but before she can follow I grab her arm and ask wtf was that. She says "Oh he's one of my best friends, he's like a brother to me". Not too convinced, and quite frankly pissed off I turn around and walk out. I text her early this afternoon (Sunday) asking for an explanation. She responds much later in the evening saying she had told him to come meet us up and when he got there he was drunk, feeling sorry for him self for always being the third wheel, and she was just trying to cheer him up with that kiss. This girl is so cool to talk to and hang out with, and so unbelievably attractive, I just don't trust myself to judge her story clearly. Is it plausible or should I just walk away?
Best answer: Totally plausible imho but she still sounds kind of nuts.
posted by fshgrl at 11:21 PM on June 16, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 11:21 PM on June 16, 2013 [12 favorites]
The question actually isn't whether this is plausible behavior - there's a wide variety of things that go on between friends, and she shouldn't have to justify the way she lives her life to someone she just met. The question is whether you're compatible, and based on your reaction, I'd say the answer is no.
posted by Space Kitty at 11:28 PM on June 16, 2013 [61 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 11:28 PM on June 16, 2013 [61 favorites]
If it's too good to be true, it probably is.
posted by Jurbano at 11:29 PM on June 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Jurbano at 11:29 PM on June 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Not very plausible. Regardless, that's not the main problem with this situation.
Would you even be pursuing this if it wasn't for her looks? If so, the whole business of cutting her a break on flakiness (and what sounds like outright rudeness) is going to wear pretty thin after a while. For most men in their early thirties, anyway.
Nobody here can tell you if she was telling the truth about the other guy. If you're genuinely interested in her beyond 'So HAWT!!1!' invite her out on a date for next weekend. If she doesn't give you a definite answer within a reasonable time frame, walk away.
posted by Salamander at 11:32 PM on June 16, 2013 [5 favorites]
Would you even be pursuing this if it wasn't for her looks? If so, the whole business of cutting her a break on flakiness (and what sounds like outright rudeness) is going to wear pretty thin after a while. For most men in their early thirties, anyway.
Nobody here can tell you if she was telling the truth about the other guy. If you're genuinely interested in her beyond 'So HAWT!!1!' invite her out on a date for next weekend. If she doesn't give you a definite answer within a reasonable time frame, walk away.
posted by Salamander at 11:32 PM on June 16, 2013 [5 favorites]
predictable flakiness of a girl her age and her looks
before she can follow I grab her arm and ask wtf was that
This girl is so cool to talk to and hang out with, and so unbelievably attractive, I just don't trust myself to judge her story clearly.
No, wow, just no, do not pursue, you are NOT in a right headspace re: this person. You're not approaching her as a human but as a collection of stereotypes and weirdly, as some sort of possession. Grabbing her? Preventing her from following her friend? WTF is THAT, man?
I don't care if it was "in no way violent." You grab me, stop me, fucking pick a fight with me when I've known you for three hours? Nope. To reprise an earlier comment of mine, she ain't yo girlfriend, son.
You leave this girl alone til you get your head straight. She's a person who happens to be hot. Get a grip.
posted by like_a_friend at 11:36 PM on June 16, 2013 [167 favorites]
before she can follow I grab her arm and ask wtf was that
This girl is so cool to talk to and hang out with, and so unbelievably attractive, I just don't trust myself to judge her story clearly.
No, wow, just no, do not pursue, you are NOT in a right headspace re: this person. You're not approaching her as a human but as a collection of stereotypes and weirdly, as some sort of possession. Grabbing her? Preventing her from following her friend? WTF is THAT, man?
I don't care if it was "in no way violent." You grab me, stop me, fucking pick a fight with me when I've known you for three hours? Nope. To reprise an earlier comment of mine, she ain't yo girlfriend, son.
You leave this girl alone til you get your head straight. She's a person who happens to be hot. Get a grip.
posted by like_a_friend at 11:36 PM on June 16, 2013 [167 favorites]
Yea, i'm with like_a_friend on this. Who cares who she kisses? she isn't your girlfriend.
Some of my better stories and erm, encounters come from hanging out with people who just kinda bounced around like this. Some people are really flirty, some people are really naive and do things like that because it's obviously what the other person wants not realizing they'll read in to it.
Maybe they have a FWB type thing going on and they don't want to talk about it/explain it. Who even knows, who cares. Maybe they have a really casual relationship and don't like to bring it up. Maybe they really are just friends but had some kind of thing in the past, and did that because they were drunk.
The only point at which i'd care if her story was suspect was if i was planning on dating her, or otherwise being seriously involved. That's a long way past the horizon if it's even a possibility at all.
I get that it sucks a little bit to feel like you had the attention and she was flirting with you and then have her bounce to someone else. Whatever. The proper reaction is just to pretend you didn't see it happen unless you're dating the person in a monogamous relationship.
Maybe you're not cut out for this early 20's not giving a fuck thing she's more than likely doing? Plenty of people seem to be weirded out or react like you about it, it's not just you. But you're reaction will drive people away who think you're being oddly possessive wanting that kind of info and confronting her after knowing someone for yea, like 3 hours.
She probably introduced you to her friend that way, and doubled down because she didn't want you to think she was taken/off limits/you didn't have a chance. You're pretty much literally being set up to win here and you're still pretty much sabotaging yourself.
posted by emptythought at 11:43 PM on June 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Some of my better stories and erm, encounters come from hanging out with people who just kinda bounced around like this. Some people are really flirty, some people are really naive and do things like that because it's obviously what the other person wants not realizing they'll read in to it.
Maybe they have a FWB type thing going on and they don't want to talk about it/explain it. Who even knows, who cares. Maybe they have a really casual relationship and don't like to bring it up. Maybe they really are just friends but had some kind of thing in the past, and did that because they were drunk.
The only point at which i'd care if her story was suspect was if i was planning on dating her, or otherwise being seriously involved. That's a long way past the horizon if it's even a possibility at all.
I get that it sucks a little bit to feel like you had the attention and she was flirting with you and then have her bounce to someone else. Whatever. The proper reaction is just to pretend you didn't see it happen unless you're dating the person in a monogamous relationship.
Maybe you're not cut out for this early 20's not giving a fuck thing she's more than likely doing? Plenty of people seem to be weirded out or react like you about it, it's not just you. But you're reaction will drive people away who think you're being oddly possessive wanting that kind of info and confronting her after knowing someone for yea, like 3 hours.
She probably introduced you to her friend that way, and doubled down because she didn't want you to think she was taken/off limits/you didn't have a chance. You're pretty much literally being set up to win here and you're still pretty much sabotaging yourself.
posted by emptythought at 11:43 PM on June 16, 2013 [4 favorites]
Mod note: General reminder: let's all keep our cool, explain reasonably, and try to make our advice helpful and productive. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:47 PM on June 16, 2013
posted by taz (staff) at 11:47 PM on June 16, 2013
"Feeling sorry for himself for always being the third wheel" reads to me like, "He's in love with me, but I fuck around with his emotions." And she's already doing it to you, too. But, even if that isn't true, I have some questions. How long did she leave you outside? Ten minutes? Twenty minutes? You walked away and she didn't call you or ask you where you'd gone via text or follow you? You initiated contact, AFTER leaving? I mean, I don't know what you're looking for, but if you want a relationship, I'm almost sure you're not going to get one (good one) from her.
posted by amodelcitizen at 11:48 PM on June 16, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by amodelcitizen at 11:48 PM on June 16, 2013 [8 favorites]
Yeah, this sounds like she isn't fitting the dream scenario you're hoping for. Which, of course, is her right. And your behaviour towards her has been unhelpful, I think. You do not grab people. You really don't. If you want her attention you speak to her. And carrying assumptions such as the one you make about how girls of "her age and looks" behave is probably contributing to giving you some unrealistic expectations. If I were you I'd back off now and let her make the next move, or not.
posted by Decani at 11:54 PM on June 16, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by Decani at 11:54 PM on June 16, 2013 [12 favorites]
Here's the thing. When a hot woman in her early 20s calls multiple dudes she knows (because her friend got there somehow, too, remember) to hang out at a bar, she wants to make out with dudes at a bar. That is pretty much the sum total of what she wants to do.*
So she makes out with you. You stop her from making out with you. (I'm not saying this was wrong! Your comfort zone is valid and she was outside it.) But you see, she is at the bar to make out with dudes. So if you're no longer making out, she is going to go and find another dude to make out with. Which she did. Problem solved, on her end.
The problem is you're sitting there being a dude in his 30s who's got whatever the dude equivalent of wedding bells chiming in his brain. You are NOT there to make out with random chicks at a bar. You are Wayne Campbell and "Dream Weaver" is playing and you're all "she will be mine, oh yes."
So you were always at cross purposes with this person. I reiterate: do not pursue, she ain't yo girlfriend.
*Source: I was a girl in her 20s making out with bar dudes once upon a time.
posted by like_a_friend at 11:58 PM on June 16, 2013 [65 favorites]
So she makes out with you. You stop her from making out with you. (I'm not saying this was wrong! Your comfort zone is valid and she was outside it.) But you see, she is at the bar to make out with dudes. So if you're no longer making out, she is going to go and find another dude to make out with. Which she did. Problem solved, on her end.
The problem is you're sitting there being a dude in his 30s who's got whatever the dude equivalent of wedding bells chiming in his brain. You are NOT there to make out with random chicks at a bar. You are Wayne Campbell and "Dream Weaver" is playing and you're all "she will be mine, oh yes."
So you were always at cross purposes with this person. I reiterate: do not pursue, she ain't yo girlfriend.
*Source: I was a girl in her 20s making out with bar dudes once upon a time.
posted by like_a_friend at 11:58 PM on June 16, 2013 [65 favorites]
*Source: I was a girl in her 20s making out with bar dudes once upon a time.
I agree with like_a_friend and too offer the same, "credentials" - she's not particularly interested in you; you're an attractive man she'll enjoy the company of as and when it suits her, however, before you begin to feel the first stirrings of righteous indignation, she owes you nothing - she's just having fun, and if you're unwilling or unable to play along, move along.
posted by Nibiru at 12:32 AM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
I agree with like_a_friend and too offer the same, "credentials" - she's not particularly interested in you; you're an attractive man she'll enjoy the company of as and when it suits her, however, before you begin to feel the first stirrings of righteous indignation, she owes you nothing - she's just having fun, and if you're unwilling or unable to play along, move along.
posted by Nibiru at 12:32 AM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
Something seems really, really off about this whole scenario. Like creepy/crazy off. I would proceed with extreme caution; getting let down by this girl isn't the worst thing that could happen to you here.
I could be completely barking up the wrong tree here - I actually hope I am - but someone has to point out the worst case scenario, right?
posted by Broseph at 12:39 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I could be completely barking up the wrong tree here - I actually hope I am - but someone has to point out the worst case scenario, right?
posted by Broseph at 12:39 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I live with an incredibly gorgeous girl (roommate natch) who is lovely and not interested in a relationship. The guys she brings home inevitably decide they are in love with her and spill their guts to me. Or tell her that because they care about her so much,and are such good friends to her, she almost owes them sex. Same age group. Would be incredibly entertaining if it weren't so sad for them all. Btw, you don't need violence to do something inappropriate. You can grab my arm if we're close friends or someone's in imminent danger, otherwise it just looks like you feel entitled. My guess is - if you back off and act like she's not super wonderful, you maybe have a chance of bedding her once. But that's it. You and she are on different planets.
posted by b33j at 1:19 AM on June 17, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by b33j at 1:19 AM on June 17, 2013 [8 favorites]
This just sounds so full of dramaz. I suggest finding a new bar.
posted by floweredfish at 1:26 AM on June 17, 2013
posted by floweredfish at 1:26 AM on June 17, 2013
The drama sirens are already blaring and you've met this person twice in your life.
1) you're old enough to have gained some perspective about minor social interactions by now, and the fact that you apparently don't have that perspective indicates to me that you might seriously want to reevaluate your expectations about dating, women, other peoples' behaviour, and maybe get some therapy and some communications training. imo, this is a serious overreaction to a fairly innocuous happening, and you'd never communicated your desires clearly to this woman until you grabbed her arm and demanded an explaination.
2)Hey, maybe they're fuck buddies. What's it to you? You just met her.
3) stay away from this situation, it's not going to be healthy for either of you. Just let it go. Walk away.
posted by windykites at 1:40 AM on June 17, 2013 [14 favorites]
1) you're old enough to have gained some perspective about minor social interactions by now, and the fact that you apparently don't have that perspective indicates to me that you might seriously want to reevaluate your expectations about dating, women, other peoples' behaviour, and maybe get some therapy and some communications training. imo, this is a serious overreaction to a fairly innocuous happening, and you'd never communicated your desires clearly to this woman until you grabbed her arm and demanded an explaination.
2)Hey, maybe they're fuck buddies. What's it to you? You just met her.
3) stay away from this situation, it's not going to be healthy for either of you. Just let it go. Walk away.
posted by windykites at 1:40 AM on June 17, 2013 [14 favorites]
He's "just a friend." And you're just a guy she met last week (and vice versa). I don't mean that to disparage either you or her; just pointing it out for perspective. You two barely know each other, and it doesn't sound like you've had very much sober conversation. You have every right to be pissed and disappointed, but it doesn't sound like this relationship had legs.
FWIW, the Just A Friends that I had in my 20s, platonic or otherwise, would have offered to beat the shit out of anyone who grabbed my arm (or hand, or shoulder) at a bar. That's a move that's universally regarded as invasive and threatening, regardless of your intent, and other men pick up on it as fast as women do.
posted by Metroid Baby at 2:29 AM on June 17, 2013 [10 favorites]
FWIW, the Just A Friends that I had in my 20s, platonic or otherwise, would have offered to beat the shit out of anyone who grabbed my arm (or hand, or shoulder) at a bar. That's a move that's universally regarded as invasive and threatening, regardless of your intent, and other men pick up on it as fast as women do.
posted by Metroid Baby at 2:29 AM on June 17, 2013 [10 favorites]
Okay, first off: you sound totally hung up on people's looks ('stunningly beautiful', 'pretty good looking', 'hot', 'unbelieveably attractive') as opposed to personalities. Is there ANYTHING about this woman that attracts you, other than her physical appearance? Doesn't sound like it.... in fact, your whole post almost comes off as a letter to Playboy: sexy babe starts French kissing & groping you out of nowhere!
But that said, yes she's playing with you; no, this is not going to go well. Drop her.
Oh, and your line about "the predictable flakiness of a girl her age and looks" --- ummm, biased much? Age/sex/appearance are NOT predictors of behavior; there are far more people her age/sex/appearance who are not like this: this *particular* woman is flakey, but that doesn't translate to the behavior of an entire huge group.
posted by easily confused at 2:42 AM on June 17, 2013 [26 favorites]
But that said, yes she's playing with you; no, this is not going to go well. Drop her.
Oh, and your line about "the predictable flakiness of a girl her age and looks" --- ummm, biased much? Age/sex/appearance are NOT predictors of behavior; there are far more people her age/sex/appearance who are not like this: this *particular* woman is flakey, but that doesn't translate to the behavior of an entire huge group.
posted by easily confused at 2:42 AM on June 17, 2013 [26 favorites]
Agreeing with others that it was Game Over as soon as you grabbed her arm, but I'm not going to focus on that.
Leave aside what's "believable" and what she thinks is going on here: why would you stand outside a bar waiting ages for someone who says she'll "be right out"?
FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if, on following them in, I saw them kissing someone else on the lips, but it wouldn't even be relevant to me anymore at that point, because I wouldn't have gone in, because I wouldn't have been waiting around.
Are you a High Value Male or a mouse? Do you want to be left hanging around sorry for yourself because you're always the third wheel, or what? If you're not interested in being led up and down the garden path by the head cheerleader of the junior high school, don't go along with stuff like this. It isn't a courtship style appropriate to your age.
posted by tel3path at 2:48 AM on June 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
Leave aside what's "believable" and what she thinks is going on here: why would you stand outside a bar waiting ages for someone who says she'll "be right out"?
FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if, on following them in, I saw them kissing someone else on the lips, but it wouldn't even be relevant to me anymore at that point, because I wouldn't have gone in, because I wouldn't have been waiting around.
Are you a High Value Male or a mouse? Do you want to be left hanging around sorry for yourself because you're always the third wheel, or what? If you're not interested in being led up and down the garden path by the head cheerleader of the junior high school, don't go along with stuff like this. It isn't a courtship style appropriate to your age.
posted by tel3path at 2:48 AM on June 17, 2013 [5 favorites]
The drama sirens are already blaring and you've met this person twice in your life.
There are some really cruel comments in this thread (I think this is a thing, don't take it personally) but what I quoted above is really good advice. This is a person just telling you who they are. Accept it, and you'll find yourself feeling a lot less cross about this whole situation.
Why are people like this? Why do people trivialize your feelings? That's none of your business. Make it your business and you are inviting a world of hurt, and you know what? Shit's still going to end up the same.
In the meantime, people don't always live up to what they seem to be. Don't scold and complain, just have compassion and move the fuck on. And in case you're getting your lines crossed, true love may not be a crushing kiss in the middle of a bar with the most beautiful stranger you've ever laid eyes on. You're probably dodging a huge bullet.
posted by phaedon at 4:30 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
There are some really cruel comments in this thread (I think this is a thing, don't take it personally) but what I quoted above is really good advice. This is a person just telling you who they are. Accept it, and you'll find yourself feeling a lot less cross about this whole situation.
Why are people like this? Why do people trivialize your feelings? That's none of your business. Make it your business and you are inviting a world of hurt, and you know what? Shit's still going to end up the same.
In the meantime, people don't always live up to what they seem to be. Don't scold and complain, just have compassion and move the fuck on. And in case you're getting your lines crossed, true love may not be a crushing kiss in the middle of a bar with the most beautiful stranger you've ever laid eyes on. You're probably dodging a huge bullet.
posted by phaedon at 4:30 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
I was good friends with a woman like this, or at least this sounds a lot like the kind of thing she would have been doing. As much as she wasn't malicious, and as much as she didn't purposefully mess around with mens' emotions, she did. A lot. She really did a number on a LOT of guys.
My recommendation is to move on.
And echoing what a lot of other people are saying: you would benefit from not focusing so intensely on whether or not someone is "hot" and not use that attribute to define people. Saying how of COURSE she was flake because she was pretty and young is not a good way to go either. A lot of what you wrote reads as young, a bit immature, and unfortunately somewhat shallow, and I can see from the responses that I'm not the only one. If that isn't how you see yourself and if it isn't how you want to be thought of then do some thinking about WHY so many of us got that impression, and then work on how to give off a better impression.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:34 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
My recommendation is to move on.
And echoing what a lot of other people are saying: you would benefit from not focusing so intensely on whether or not someone is "hot" and not use that attribute to define people. Saying how of COURSE she was flake because she was pretty and young is not a good way to go either. A lot of what you wrote reads as young, a bit immature, and unfortunately somewhat shallow, and I can see from the responses that I'm not the only one. If that isn't how you see yourself and if it isn't how you want to be thought of then do some thinking about WHY so many of us got that impression, and then work on how to give off a better impression.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 4:34 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
Asking you to a bar on a Saturday night, moving to shots after one beer, proceeding fast to PDA? C'mon, man. You were Booty Call A, and when the booty didn't look like it was gonna materialize she moved on to Booty Call B. It has nothing to do with her age or gender or morality and everything to do with how booty calls work.
Everyone else has already hoisted the red flag on the arm-grabbing; but sorry, it was violent, and if that's keeping your cool I'm curious as to what constitutes losing your temper. I don't blame her for giving you a vague excuse; the decision to walk away has almost certainly been made -- by her, and because of that.
posted by dekathelon at 4:43 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
Everyone else has already hoisted the red flag on the arm-grabbing; but sorry, it was violent, and if that's keeping your cool I'm curious as to what constitutes losing your temper. I don't blame her for giving you a vague excuse; the decision to walk away has almost certainly been made -- by her, and because of that.
posted by dekathelon at 4:43 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
OP, I want to go against the grain here and say that if looks are what's most important to you, that's absolutely fine. Your values and priorities are your values and priorities, and I think it's good that you're so honest about them; nobody gets to tell you that your values are unacceptable unles you like to kick puppies or something. That said, a lot of people are going to have a problem with that stance, up to and including the hot girls you want. And even the ones who are fine with it need you to be clear and respectful about what you want, and need their desires addressed, before you get upset about not providing it. There are a lot of red-flags about your approach that have nothing to do with the fact that looks are highly important to you.
posted by windykites at 4:49 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by windykites at 4:49 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Walk away and re-evaluate. The way you describe this woman sets off all sorts of alarms in my head. You're judging all of her actions in light of how she looks. (And yeah, the arm grab was an act of violence.)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:19 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:19 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
To me she sounds like she's going to steal your wallet or is some sort of con artist.
posted by michaelh at 5:23 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 5:23 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Easy come, easy go. If you want something more lasting or exclusive, you'll probably need to work more for it. If the other person doesn't seem to be working with you towards a similar goal, that's a sign you're not compatible and should walk away. Is her explanation plausible? Well, the literal word-for-word meaning is sort of beside the point; what she's telling you is that it's normal for her to kiss a guy on a really casual basis. That message seems totally plausible to me and if you are not comfortable with it then yes, you should walk away.
posted by Orinda at 5:39 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Orinda at 5:39 AM on June 17, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm feeling like I won the lottery
This is not good. You just met her, you don't know her, and most importantly you have not 'won' her. Upon spending more time with her, you found that her behavior makes you uncomfortable and upset, even a little angry. If she weren't so attractive, that would have probably been enough for you to reach the conclusion that she is simply not the person you were hoping she'd turn out to be. You're hoping she'll be your girlfriend; her interest is way more casual. Nothing wrong with either of those desires, but it's a serious mismatch.
Yes, beauty can cloud judgment. But the other thing I am sensing from your description of events is that maybe you think you will never be so 'lucky' again. If that's so, maybe reflect on why you feel that way. And figure out how you can change it, 'cause that's a lousy way to feel. It can get in your way.
posted by fikri at 5:55 AM on June 17, 2013 [12 favorites]
This is not good. You just met her, you don't know her, and most importantly you have not 'won' her. Upon spending more time with her, you found that her behavior makes you uncomfortable and upset, even a little angry. If she weren't so attractive, that would have probably been enough for you to reach the conclusion that she is simply not the person you were hoping she'd turn out to be. You're hoping she'll be your girlfriend; her interest is way more casual. Nothing wrong with either of those desires, but it's a serious mismatch.
Yes, beauty can cloud judgment. But the other thing I am sensing from your description of events is that maybe you think you will never be so 'lucky' again. If that's so, maybe reflect on why you feel that way. And figure out how you can change it, 'cause that's a lousy way to feel. It can get in your way.
posted by fikri at 5:55 AM on June 17, 2013 [12 favorites]
Sounds totally believable to me, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't walk away if you're not comfortable with it.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:56 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:56 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think people are being quite hard on you because it's one thing to snog people casually in bars, and totally another to be on a date with two such guys at the same time - at least one of whom is unsuspecting and the other of whom you know is in love with you - and leaving one of them outside while you go in and snog the other. In a sense, we could say she thought you were fair game and that you failed to recognize the situation for what it is, but come on: she's still being bloody rude and this is not behaviour I'd expect from someone over the age of 14.
Where you stop seeming naive and start looking inappropriate yourself is when you grab her arm instead of walking away from the situation. That's the kind of thing that reasonable people don't do and makes you look uncivilised and threatening.
There is also something off about the implied or stated idea that being hawt buys her the entitlement to treat you like this. It frames social interaction in terms of dominance hierarchy. It's one thing to like someone for their looks, but if your motto isn't "hawt is as hawt does" you will find yourself in versions of this situation again in the future.
posted by tel3path at 5:59 AM on June 17, 2013 [10 favorites]
Where you stop seeming naive and start looking inappropriate yourself is when you grab her arm instead of walking away from the situation. That's the kind of thing that reasonable people don't do and makes you look uncivilised and threatening.
There is also something off about the implied or stated idea that being hawt buys her the entitlement to treat you like this. It frames social interaction in terms of dominance hierarchy. It's one thing to like someone for their looks, but if your motto isn't "hawt is as hawt does" you will find yourself in versions of this situation again in the future.
posted by tel3path at 5:59 AM on June 17, 2013 [10 favorites]
You. You got what I neeeed but you say he's just a friend....
First of all, clearly there's something going on between those two and whatever it is, it JDLR (just doesn't look right.) That's one.
Two, you are a freaking mess. So a pretty girl hit it off with you, you're not even dating and you're wrapped around the axle about her. To the point where you grab her in a jealous fit. More to the point, she didn't ditch you permanantly right there, which screams "Drama Llama" to me. A normal woman would have said, "I hardly know you, you don't get to tell me who I kiss or who my friends are, lose my number!"
Beautiful women can have great conversations and like other folks just fine. So this whole, "she's so much better looking than I am" thing just sounds shallow and icky to me.
The alarm bells are going off for both of you. She's pretty bad at boundaries (what she does with her friend is her businss, but she should have cut you off instantly for your bad behavior.)
You're all bajiggity about her and you don't know her. Sure, she's beautiful and she can hold up her end of the conversation. You should be interested and pleased, not jealous and crazy, which is how you're coming off.
At this point, I suggest you move on. Whatever you've created in your head out of about 45 minutes of interaction is WAY out of proportion to reality.
It's going to be hard to move on, but do it. You will save yourself so much hassle and heartache it isn't even funny.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:10 AM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
First of all, clearly there's something going on between those two and whatever it is, it JDLR (just doesn't look right.) That's one.
Two, you are a freaking mess. So a pretty girl hit it off with you, you're not even dating and you're wrapped around the axle about her. To the point where you grab her in a jealous fit. More to the point, she didn't ditch you permanantly right there, which screams "Drama Llama" to me. A normal woman would have said, "I hardly know you, you don't get to tell me who I kiss or who my friends are, lose my number!"
Beautiful women can have great conversations and like other folks just fine. So this whole, "she's so much better looking than I am" thing just sounds shallow and icky to me.
The alarm bells are going off for both of you. She's pretty bad at boundaries (what she does with her friend is her businss, but she should have cut you off instantly for your bad behavior.)
You're all bajiggity about her and you don't know her. Sure, she's beautiful and she can hold up her end of the conversation. You should be interested and pleased, not jealous and crazy, which is how you're coming off.
At this point, I suggest you move on. Whatever you've created in your head out of about 45 minutes of interaction is WAY out of proportion to reality.
It's going to be hard to move on, but do it. You will save yourself so much hassle and heartache it isn't even funny.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:10 AM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
You should walk away.
Not necessarily because you've done anything wrong, or she has, but because you seem to me to be making this into a long-shot bet that will not pay out for you even if you achieve whatever your victory conditions are (relationship, marriage, whatever). You are playing the lottery here (is it worth putting up with her kind of dramatic and flaky behavior?) on the belief that the potential payout for doing so is very high (having a really hot girlfriend / wife / exclusive fuck-buddy / whatever).
I'm here to tell you it's not. The payout is not that high and the costs that you will incur are not fungible costs. Dating a really hot girl who puts you through the emotional wringer in the hopes that she will eventually be who you want her to be is not like spending $5, or even $500, on a lottery ticket. You can easily make more dollars that are just as good as the ones you've spent. You can't easily unwring your heart. You will carry those costs with you like scars, possibly forever.
And, without getting into too much detail, I can tell you that the payout isn't actually that high. Dating the model-hot girl that you don't really click with is no different than dating anybody else that you don't really click with. Even at home, when you're not fending off the advances of other dudes.
What's better than dating somebody model-hot is being one of two people sharing themselves with one another as people with emotions and personalities and values and goals. Hot people can share themselves this way just as much as anybody, but I'd bet a lot of dollars, based on your description, that this girl is not going to share herself with you in this way.
posted by gauche at 6:31 AM on June 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
Not necessarily because you've done anything wrong, or she has, but because you seem to me to be making this into a long-shot bet that will not pay out for you even if you achieve whatever your victory conditions are (relationship, marriage, whatever). You are playing the lottery here (is it worth putting up with her kind of dramatic and flaky behavior?) on the belief that the potential payout for doing so is very high (having a really hot girlfriend / wife / exclusive fuck-buddy / whatever).
I'm here to tell you it's not. The payout is not that high and the costs that you will incur are not fungible costs. Dating a really hot girl who puts you through the emotional wringer in the hopes that she will eventually be who you want her to be is not like spending $5, or even $500, on a lottery ticket. You can easily make more dollars that are just as good as the ones you've spent. You can't easily unwring your heart. You will carry those costs with you like scars, possibly forever.
And, without getting into too much detail, I can tell you that the payout isn't actually that high. Dating the model-hot girl that you don't really click with is no different than dating anybody else that you don't really click with. Even at home, when you're not fending off the advances of other dudes.
What's better than dating somebody model-hot is being one of two people sharing themselves with one another as people with emotions and personalities and values and goals. Hot people can share themselves this way just as much as anybody, but I'd bet a lot of dollars, based on your description, that this girl is not going to share herself with you in this way.
posted by gauche at 6:31 AM on June 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
When they get to the top he says something to her and they kiss on the lips.
Was this like a smack on the lips or was there spit being swapped? Because those are two very different things.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:39 AM on June 17, 2013
Was this like a smack on the lips or was there spit being swapped? Because those are two very different things.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:39 AM on June 17, 2013
"Oh he's one of my best friends, he's like a brother to me"...
...he was drunk, feeling sorry for him self for always being the third wheel, and she was just trying to cheer him up with that kiss...
Is it plausible or should I just walk away?
To answer your specific question, no I don't think her story is plausible. It sounds like the two of them have more going on she is telling you.
I had a roommate a few years ago who told a story similar to yours. He went to a bar and a "really hot" woman started coming on to him. She left for a few minutes, and then came back and asked him "do you want to fuck me?" Before he could respond she said, "there's one condition: my boyfriend gets to watch" and she indicated her boyfriend who was across the room.
For some reason my roommate agreed to this arrangement, and the three of them went back to our place. (Luckily I was out of town at the time.) The girl took turns with the two of them while the other guy watched. Then she and her boyfriend got up and got dressed to leave. As she was walking out the door she turned to my roommate and said, "Fuck you, asshole. We used you." Then she walked out the door and he never saw either of them again. My roommate was left dazed and confused, but ultimately no harm was done and he got a good story out of it.
So that's what I was thinking when I started reading your story. Obviously the ending is different because your girl is claiming that this male friend of hers isn't a boyfriend or FWB. I can't tell you what's really going on, whether it's a scam or he's a playmate or pimp, someone to keep her safe while she does her thing or just a buddy like she says.
All that said, I agree with the other responses above: you are in over your head, you've lost perspective, and its very unlikely you are going to get what you want out of this situation. This girl does not know you from Harry Houdini.
You haven't said what you want out of this situation. A girlfriend? A one-time booty call? To settle down and have kids together? Whatever you want, it seems very unlikely that you'll get it cleanly, without major drama or worse. The two of you are operating from very different places, and you have no idea what her assumptions or motives are. Proceed with extreme caution. She may be hot, but she's not worth losing a kidney over.
posted by alms at 6:55 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
...he was drunk, feeling sorry for him self for always being the third wheel, and she was just trying to cheer him up with that kiss...
Is it plausible or should I just walk away?
To answer your specific question, no I don't think her story is plausible. It sounds like the two of them have more going on she is telling you.
I had a roommate a few years ago who told a story similar to yours. He went to a bar and a "really hot" woman started coming on to him. She left for a few minutes, and then came back and asked him "do you want to fuck me?" Before he could respond she said, "there's one condition: my boyfriend gets to watch" and she indicated her boyfriend who was across the room.
For some reason my roommate agreed to this arrangement, and the three of them went back to our place. (Luckily I was out of town at the time.) The girl took turns with the two of them while the other guy watched. Then she and her boyfriend got up and got dressed to leave. As she was walking out the door she turned to my roommate and said, "Fuck you, asshole. We used you." Then she walked out the door and he never saw either of them again. My roommate was left dazed and confused, but ultimately no harm was done and he got a good story out of it.
So that's what I was thinking when I started reading your story. Obviously the ending is different because your girl is claiming that this male friend of hers isn't a boyfriend or FWB. I can't tell you what's really going on, whether it's a scam or he's a playmate or pimp, someone to keep her safe while she does her thing or just a buddy like she says.
All that said, I agree with the other responses above: you are in over your head, you've lost perspective, and its very unlikely you are going to get what you want out of this situation. This girl does not know you from Harry Houdini.
You haven't said what you want out of this situation. A girlfriend? A one-time booty call? To settle down and have kids together? Whatever you want, it seems very unlikely that you'll get it cleanly, without major drama or worse. The two of you are operating from very different places, and you have no idea what her assumptions or motives are. Proceed with extreme caution. She may be hot, but she's not worth losing a kidney over.
posted by alms at 6:55 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
Dude, she passionately kissed you, a total stranger, within hours of meeting you.
That is not something I would do, but it's something you're totally ok with her doing. Why are you not okay with her being similarly physically affectionate with people she actually knows?
That said, you have each shown your cards. You don't trust her/can't decide if you should believe her "story," and she kisses (lots of) people.
Whether she is telling the objective truth or not doesn't matter here. What matters is that you don't sound like you respect her. The only ways you really describe her are "stunningly beautiful" and "predictable flakiness of a girl her age and her looks." First impressions generally need more than this to carry forward into actual healthy relationships.
I'm not touching the age difference with a barge pole.
posted by bilabial at 7:06 AM on June 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
That is not something I would do, but it's something you're totally ok with her doing. Why are you not okay with her being similarly physically affectionate with people she actually knows?
That said, you have each shown your cards. You don't trust her/can't decide if you should believe her "story," and she kisses (lots of) people.
Whether she is telling the objective truth or not doesn't matter here. What matters is that you don't sound like you respect her. The only ways you really describe her are "stunningly beautiful" and "predictable flakiness of a girl her age and her looks." First impressions generally need more than this to carry forward into actual healthy relationships.
I'm not touching the age difference with a barge pole.
posted by bilabial at 7:06 AM on June 17, 2013 [6 favorites]
Oh dear.
I really don't get why people are judging this girl to be a monster just by this initial approach. I used to behave similarly with people in my early 20s (including bringing a guy friend along as "insurance"), mostly because I was playing shallow and superficial because I was afraid of being hurt.
I used the same tactic whether interested in someone for a night, or really interested in getting to know them.
The thing is, it's still too early to tell (probably for her too). I suggest you cool off and don't approach her for a month or so. Then, if you think it's still worth it, take her out for a regular date somewhere. Make sure she definitely knows it's a date. *You* have to ask *her*. If she's interested, she'll come alone.
posted by gohabsgo at 7:29 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I really don't get why people are judging this girl to be a monster just by this initial approach. I used to behave similarly with people in my early 20s (including bringing a guy friend along as "insurance"), mostly because I was playing shallow and superficial because I was afraid of being hurt.
I used the same tactic whether interested in someone for a night, or really interested in getting to know them.
The thing is, it's still too early to tell (probably for her too). I suggest you cool off and don't approach her for a month or so. Then, if you think it's still worth it, take her out for a regular date somewhere. Make sure she definitely knows it's a date. *You* have to ask *her*. If she's interested, she'll come alone.
posted by gohabsgo at 7:29 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
You should run away because whatever it is that you want to happen between you and this woman, is not going to happen.
Frankly, I'm not even sure if it matters if she's telling the truth about her friend or not. You don't sound compatible and you don't seem to like her all that much. Yeah, she's beautiful, but is there any other reason that you are interested in her?
Your behavior sounds like it was way over the line, and I would be surprised if she was still interested in you. In fact, she ditched you in the bar to go hang out with her friend, and that was before you acted like a possessive jerk.
posted by inertia at 7:42 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Frankly, I'm not even sure if it matters if she's telling the truth about her friend or not. You don't sound compatible and you don't seem to like her all that much. Yeah, she's beautiful, but is there any other reason that you are interested in her?
Your behavior sounds like it was way over the line, and I would be surprised if she was still interested in you. In fact, she ditched you in the bar to go hang out with her friend, and that was before you acted like a possessive jerk.
posted by inertia at 7:42 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Dude, she passionately kissed you, a total stranger, within hours of meeting you.
Yeah, this. It's flattering to think that she made out with you because she found you irresistible. Man, wouldn't we all like to think that.
More likely, she kissed you because that's who and how she is. It's probably not about you at all.
To the extent you aren't comfortable with that, you aren't going to get what you want here. Your animal magnetism isn't going to make her change who she is, but you can spend a lot of time and emotional energy finding that out if that's what you want to do.
posted by gauche at 7:48 AM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
Yeah, this. It's flattering to think that she made out with you because she found you irresistible. Man, wouldn't we all like to think that.
More likely, she kissed you because that's who and how she is. It's probably not about you at all.
To the extent you aren't comfortable with that, you aren't going to get what you want here. Your animal magnetism isn't going to make her change who she is, but you can spend a lot of time and emotional energy finding that out if that's what you want to do.
posted by gauche at 7:48 AM on June 17, 2013 [7 favorites]
It doesn't really matter if she is telling the truth or not. She seems dramatic and flaky, and you seem overly possessive and a bit immature for a guy your age. Even if her story checks out, it's a little weird, as is some of your behavior. I don't see this ending well for either of you - move on.
I really don't get why people are judging this girl to be a monster just by this initial approach. I used to behave similarly with people in my early 20s (including bringing a guy friend along as "insurance"), mostly because I was playing shallow and superficial because I was afraid of being hurt. I used the same tactic whether interested in someone for a night, or really interested in getting to know them.
That doesn't make it right. Look, this girl could be a totally awesome person but she's clearly got some growing up to do, and if I'm a 30 year old man looking for a serious date, I'm not gonna wait around for that to happen. Then again, I also probably would have just walked away, maybe with a polite text message, if I saw her kissing the other dude.
posted by breakin' the law at 8:11 AM on June 17, 2013
I really don't get why people are judging this girl to be a monster just by this initial approach. I used to behave similarly with people in my early 20s (including bringing a guy friend along as "insurance"), mostly because I was playing shallow and superficial because I was afraid of being hurt. I used the same tactic whether interested in someone for a night, or really interested in getting to know them.
That doesn't make it right. Look, this girl could be a totally awesome person but she's clearly got some growing up to do, and if I'm a 30 year old man looking for a serious date, I'm not gonna wait around for that to happen. Then again, I also probably would have just walked away, maybe with a polite text message, if I saw her kissing the other dude.
posted by breakin' the law at 8:11 AM on June 17, 2013
Best answer: Dude she's a player. You're just thrown because she doesn't fit into the stereotype of a player because, you know, she's a girl, but she's a total player. Multiple guys. Lame excuses to keep you on the hook and coming back for more. Lots of "friends." Good at manufacturing an instant "connection." Oh and really hot with enough sexual capital to make all the bullshit worth it to most people.
posted by whoaali at 8:19 AM on June 17, 2013 [19 favorites]
posted by whoaali at 8:19 AM on June 17, 2013 [19 favorites]
nthing player. Deal with the situation accordingly.
posted by HopStopDon'tShop at 8:26 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by HopStopDon'tShop at 8:26 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'd walk away, but then I am a guy in his 40s that has had this experience a couple of times and learned it's generally not worth it.
This said, if you go into it eyes open you can have fun. Everyone should date someone that is a bit too wild and out of their league at least once in their lives. It makes you appreciate the normal people more. Looks aren't everything.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:01 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
This said, if you go into it eyes open you can have fun. Everyone should date someone that is a bit too wild and out of their league at least once in their lives. It makes you appreciate the normal people more. Looks aren't everything.
posted by cjorgensen at 9:01 AM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Her behavior, to me, screams "just got her heart broken and is now playing the field to reassure herself she's still got it/use men like she was used/distract herself." The guy "friend" is probably hoping that if he hangs out with her, it will turn into more; meanwhile, she's flattered by him liking her.
And yes, conventionally hot women can and are dumped, cheated on, and abused. (Rihanna, for example). They're human and have insecurities and get their feelings hurt just like everyone else.
Whatever the case, she's obviously not looking for a relationship.
You do seem very much caught up in her looks, though. And I agree that grabbing someone isn't cool. The thing is, she's probably totally accustomed to guys who think and act like you and she may use that to boost her self-esteem at your expense, without respecting you, especially if she's been really hurt recently and in "all men suck" mode.
I'm a woman, and I speak from experience. If it's not a recent breakup that sent her into party mode, this girl has serious attention-getting issues and doesn't sound like someone who would make you happy.
I had a friend like this once, and because of her behavior, I and our other friends ended up trying to protect her from guys all the time. She put a lot of people through pain due to her issues. I'd stay away.
posted by xenophile at 9:18 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
And yes, conventionally hot women can and are dumped, cheated on, and abused. (Rihanna, for example). They're human and have insecurities and get their feelings hurt just like everyone else.
Whatever the case, she's obviously not looking for a relationship.
You do seem very much caught up in her looks, though. And I agree that grabbing someone isn't cool. The thing is, she's probably totally accustomed to guys who think and act like you and she may use that to boost her self-esteem at your expense, without respecting you, especially if she's been really hurt recently and in "all men suck" mode.
I'm a woman, and I speak from experience. If it's not a recent breakup that sent her into party mode, this girl has serious attention-getting issues and doesn't sound like someone who would make you happy.
I had a friend like this once, and because of her behavior, I and our other friends ended up trying to protect her from guys all the time. She put a lot of people through pain due to her issues. I'd stay away.
posted by xenophile at 9:18 AM on June 17, 2013 [4 favorites]
You're lucky the bouncers didn't bounce you for grabbing her. You're lucky that she or someone else at the club didn't call the police and accuse you of assault.
Don't touch others without permission, especially in anger.
If you thought she was flakey after kissing you in the bar the first night, then you should have stopped pursuing her. I mean this sincerely, it's a grave mistake to pursue someone that is giving you hot and cold signals.
Take responsibility for your actions and choices.
posted by jbenben at 9:41 AM on June 17, 2013 [9 favorites]
Don't touch others without permission, especially in anger.
If you thought she was flakey after kissing you in the bar the first night, then you should have stopped pursuing her. I mean this sincerely, it's a grave mistake to pursue someone that is giving you hot and cold signals.
Take responsibility for your actions and choices.
posted by jbenben at 9:41 AM on June 17, 2013 [9 favorites]
If she doesn't want to sit down to watch a movie or have a coffee with you, then she's probably not what you are looking for. Asking her to do those things would help you sort out in your head what she's all about.
posted by Dansaman at 10:52 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Dansaman at 10:52 AM on June 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
Watch the 2008 movie "Two Lovers." You are dating Gwyneth Paltrow's character. Hint: it does not end well.
posted by timsneezed at 2:10 PM on June 17, 2013
posted by timsneezed at 2:10 PM on June 17, 2013
He's just a kissy friend, maybe you're just a kissy friend, hey, she probably has lots of fun kissy friends.
You want to go out with her for drinkies, maybe have eye-candy on your arm for a bit, then fine. Don't expect much more.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:18 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
You want to go out with her for drinkies, maybe have eye-candy on your arm for a bit, then fine. Don't expect much more.
posted by BlueHorse at 3:18 PM on June 17, 2013 [2 favorites]
Oh, I've totally been this girl before. In my 20s and between relationships, I was a total make-out slut..randomly kissing strangers in bars that caught my fleeting fancy, and then dropping them for the next one.
You don't OWN her, remind yourself that. If you want to pursue her as a girlfriend do so at your own risk, because my guess is she's not looking to settle down.
posted by hellameangirl at 10:16 AM on June 18, 2013
You don't OWN her, remind yourself that. If you want to pursue her as a girlfriend do so at your own risk, because my guess is she's not looking to settle down.
posted by hellameangirl at 10:16 AM on June 18, 2013
She doesn't owe you anything. Stop obsessing about her. It's fun to flirt and kiss and it's flattering when someone is really into you.
In the future, don't let yourself get so obsessed. Notice that you're getting wound up over someone you don't even know yet. It will help you no longer objectify them.
posted by discopolo at 11:59 PM on June 18, 2013
In the future, don't let yourself get so obsessed. Notice that you're getting wound up over someone you don't even know yet. It will help you no longer objectify them.
posted by discopolo at 11:59 PM on June 18, 2013
Stay. Away. From. Her.
Just based on your brief description, she has a world of problems, and if you get tangled up with her, so will you.
posted by brenton at 8:38 PM on June 24, 2013
Just based on your brief description, she has a world of problems, and if you get tangled up with her, so will you.
posted by brenton at 8:38 PM on June 24, 2013
« Older Motorcycle filter: Will I ruin my bike if I ride... | Why don't people live on the SF Bay mountains... Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by cyml at 11:19 PM on June 16, 2013 [1 favorite]