Why are extremely religious people afraid of "Bablyon"?

September 18, 2005 6:54 AM

Why are extremely religious people afraid of visiting/going/living in "Babylon"?

After seeing the Devil's Advocate again, I thought of this question. If you have faith why should you be afraid of going to "Babylon"? This would apply even more so to their children...
Besides the obvious explanation of "people are afraid of the unknown..." what other explanations could there be? Compartamentlized thinking maybe?

posted by MrMulan to religion & philosophy (27 comments total)

Babylon is about 50km south of Baghdad, Iraq. Most reasonable people would have some quite justifiable concerns about visiting Babylon, let alone living there.
posted by cactus at 7:21 AM on September 18, 2005

Babylon is used in the Christian Bible as a symbol of evil. Not wanting to "go to Babylon", in that context, means not wanting to give in to sin. The Wikipedia page has a useful discussion:

In the Book of Revelation the destruction of Babylon, a city which seems to be a symbol of every kind of evil, is foretold. The connection with the actual historical city of Babylon is purely metaphorical, as the connection of "Jerusalem" in the poetry of William Blake can bear no relation to the actual history or geography of the city of Jerusalem. Virtually all New Testament scholars believe that "Babylon" is here used as a metaphor or euphemism for the power of the Roman Empire, which was oppressing the nascent church as the Babylonian empire had oppressed the Jewish people in Old Testament times.

Elsewhere in the Book of Revelation, Babylon is the name of a whore who rules over the kings of the earth and rides upon a seven-headed beast. In one of the Bible's most famous cases of numerology, the beast is assigned the identifying number 666. See also: Whore of Babylon

(Wikipedia gives me an error when I try to get to that page; the text quoted comes from what seems to be an offsite mirror.)
posted by Zonker at 7:52 AM on September 18, 2005

I'm not sure you have enough information in your question, but I'll try to answer a bit about what Babylon means with an explanation. These extremely religious people, are they Christians but not Catholic? If so then Babylon isn't to be taken literally. Babylon represents Rome, the seat of the Pope. To many Christians the Pope is an anti-christ. minion of Satan and corrupter of the faith. So when they express a fear of Babylon they're expressing their fear of the Roman Catholic Church and would be afraid that their children would be indoctrinated, or worse, into a cult.

I know this because I'm not religious, was raised Catholic and live in a very religious place. At work I was constantly being invited to local churches. I didn't want to be rude so I took the path of least resistance and said I was Roman Catholic. That's when their efforts increased in intensity to save me from a cult, I was introduced to the "Whore of Babylon" in the revelations and I realized I was living someplace that really wasn't for me.

If you google for "Whore of Babylon" or "meaning of Babylon" you'll get some corroboration.

There is also this Jack Chick comic
posted by substrate at 8:04 AM on September 18, 2005

When I put Babylon in quotations, I meant any large urban city, in my case NYC since that's where I'm from. Also the the movie, The Devil's Advocate, NYC is referred to as Babylon.

Sorry for the confusion.
posted by MrMulan at 8:22 AM on September 18, 2005

It's the same sort of symbolism, MrMulan. Some very religious people see big cities are centers of sin, temptation and worldliness which are to be avoided.
posted by Zonker at 8:36 AM on September 18, 2005

You're forming opinions about what "extremely religious people" think by watching keanu reeves in a movie that most "extremely religious people" would probably find offensive? Really?

If you're really interested in this subject, you might consider actually talking to religious people.
posted by gd779 at 8:45 AM on September 18, 2005

No, I used the movie as a starting point gd779.

When I lived down south as a teenager, I noticed that whenever I did have a conversation when extremely religious people, they tended to be very friendly and wanted to know more about New York. Then in the next breath they would talk about how evil a place like that was, especially the people. It seemed they had compartmentalized thinking and could not understand how being friendly with somebody from NY could in any way be contradictory to thinking that people from NY were sinful.
posted by MrMulan at 8:56 AM on September 18, 2005

Substrate, you can't make a link just by putting a word in bold text. Click here to find out how. I mean here.
posted by grouse at 8:57 AM on September 18, 2005

Zonker: That's what I am trying to get at...why avoid it? If you have faith, then you should be able to be exposed to sin and temptation. Actually, I think the Amish have something to that effect.
posted by MrMulan at 9:01 AM on September 18, 2005

Babylon also frequently refers to the Babylonian Captivity, a period of time after the fall of Jerusalem (586 BC) when, after the capture and sack of the city, prominent Jews were captured and sent into exile (and slavery) in the east. The period lasted roughly 60 plus years and really contained three periods of capture and deportation. When the Persians finally overthrew the Babylonians and assumed control over their empire, they allowed the Jews to return home to Israel.

The period is often interpreted to be a punishment by God that the Jews, as the chosen people, had to endure. It has come to represent a time in a strange place, a place whose gods, values, and ways of worship are different from your own (and when used metaphorically, this can even include your own country).

Later, when, in a dispute over Papal succession, the Papacy was moved from Rome to Avignon, France where the Pope was a creature of the French King (1309-1378), the faction allied with Rome referred to this as another Babylonian Captivity.

The Whore of Babylon in Revelations, I should mention, did indeed refer to Rome, but Rome of the 1st Century AD. Revelations is widely believed to be an apocalyptic text that also served as an allegory with a "hidden" political meaning. The story in question deals with the eventual overthrow of a corrupt occupier. In first century Palestine, this meant imperial Rome (Revelations is dated to about 96 AD and makes reference to significant persecution that the Christians suffered at the hands of Romans). It was essentially early Christians looking forward to the overthrow and expulsion of Rome.

It was the Protestants who further extended the metaphor of the Babylonian Captivity to include the period of time when the church (as the bride of Christ) was help under the sway of Rome, which was recast as Babylon for the second time. In this incarnation, the Catholic Church did indeed become the Whore of Babylon, and the Pope, an antichrist.

Babylon, as a place of punishment and immorality, finds yet another recent incarnation in the African slave trade. In this case, Christianized Africans identified with the Biblical tale of capture, slavery, and exile in a godless land. The Jewish/Christian religious experience provided a great prism through which to view their own lives. And even today, you hear frequent references to Babylon in reggae music (Rastafarianism has some really interesting appropriations of Jewish/Christian traditions, btw). And today, as you point out Mr.Mulan, very religious Christians may refer to their own culture as “Babylon” if they view it as corrupt and ungodly.
posted by Verdant at 9:22 AM on September 18, 2005

Gah. Mea Culpa. I missed the ongoing discussion going on while writing the above.

As far as Babylon being an urban locus of temptation, I don't think the traditional references have much to do with actual temptation, since the descriptions seethe with indignation or disgust. I think it has more to do with the immorality of a place signifying how fallen we are from god, an dhow depraved our nature has become.
posted by Verdant at 9:28 AM on September 18, 2005

I think you're over-thinking this.

To say that some religious person is afraid of being in a place he believes to be sinful implies that he is irrational, childish -- fearful. Is that what you are trying to say, or are you asking a question?

I am a vegetarian -- I don't choose to go to the local steakhouse for dinner. Am I afraid? No, it's just not my scene.

Christians might find a big, socially liberal city to be not their scene either. And enjoined as they are to help others find "the path," will voice their concern for your spiritual well-being in such a city. Undoubtedly it is kindly meant.
posted by Methylviolet at 9:35 AM on September 18, 2005

In the particular sect of christianity in which I was raised (mormonism), Babylon represented anything secular that could cause you to lose sight of your faith. Things such as desire for money, power or status were all considered a part of "Babylon" because of their potentially destructive effect on faith and humility.
posted by fatbobsmith at 9:44 AM on September 18, 2005

Some very religious people see big cities are centers of sin, temptation and worldliness which are to be avoided.

I think the theme of the temptation of "worldliness" in the city can be found a number of places. A city is a metaphor for a system, a society, you join it and you *may* make your own place and story and success, but you could just as easily find yourself tangled up in others agendas until you're a slave to them, or distracted (perhaps corrupted by said distruction) until you don't remember the story you meant to live.

And distractions, temptations, commerce: all of these things *are* found in large metro areas, in a way they're often not present in the countryside and certainly not in the wilderness.

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. -- Revelation 18:12

All these things, and the game of their exchange! How can you not be a little distracted, until your soul is bought and sold just like all the other commodities there? You don't have to be religious to see the dangers of "selling out" and of materialism. Even Ayn Rand has that theme written all over The Fountainhead, whether she did it on purpose or not. And that's what going Babylon is a metaphor for: letting your priorities (*especially* the life of the soul) be replaced with this worldly life.

I am a vegetarian -- I don't choose to go to the local steakhouse for dinner. Am I afraid? No, it's just not my scene.
Christians might find a big, socially liberal city to be not their scene either.

This might be the best summary of the thread. Many of my religious peers would state it almost exactly the same way. I'm a little different in that I like these longwinded literary-style views like the one I gave above. :)
posted by weston at 10:00 AM on September 18, 2005

Verdant, some people maintain that the stories of persecuted Christians are phony.
posted by davy at 10:06 AM on September 18, 2005

Having had a Christian background, I am cynical of such over-indulgent symbolism. Many religious folks, Christians and Catholics alike, fear what they don't understand and attaching that fear to some kind of figurative or symbolic object, such as a place, gives them a collective point to direct their fear. In some cases the word 'Babylon' itself carries more power to make god-fearing people recoil than any specific place or historical precedent. I generalize horribly, I know, but I've seen such for years. Even if you asked some strongly religious people you probably wouldn't get a straight answer on this one: dogma is imprinted, not understood.
posted by BorgLove at 10:11 AM on September 18, 2005

Don't some groups (like Rastafarians) use "Babylon" to mean the U.S.A., "capitalist imperialism", and/or "the West" in general?
posted by davy at 10:21 AM on September 18, 2005

Babylon is a symbol of the immense system that is fueled by the basest instincts in man. The "military-industrial complex" would be a natural institution in "Babylon." It is the "Godless" city. It's the world of "Naked Lunch."

Our sex/money/power-obsessed culture is Babylon. No geographic place is intended, but in religious thinking, a real city could embody the spirit of Babylon.

Babylon represents in rapture-christianity either some actual city or the zeitgeist that declares god dead. Bablyon is a very potent symbol to Rastafarians, too, but has a racial connotation that paints Babylon as the white or western world.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:23 AM on September 18, 2005

Methylviolet: If we are talking about a fundamentalist christian, then unlike a vegetarian, he has the obligation to
witness, not to the "choir", but to those who would hate and do him harm. He does not have the luxury of saying "It's not my scene".

Childish, no.
Irrational, yes unless you can explain it in a way that makes sense.
Fearful, of course, we all would be fearful to leave the comforts of what we know and go forth somewhere where we have a chance of being corrupted.
posted by MrMulan at 10:39 AM on September 18, 2005

Oh, another note: some commentators identify the whore of Babylon with Israel, in the sense that the people of Israel have lost their way (according to John) and have fallen away from the law.
posted by sonofsamiam at 10:41 AM on September 18, 2005

Methylviolet: If we are talking about a fundamentalist christian, then unlike a vegetarian, he has the obligation to
witness, not to the "choir", but to those who would hate and do him harm. He does not have the luxury of saying "It's not my scene". /i>

Methylviolet has it right. The Bible instructs Christians to "flee from temptation" and to "be a separate people". And it's a sensible piece of advice for anyone. If you were dieting, it would not be a good idea to visit a bakery. As to the witnessing point Mr. Mulan brings up, Christians often feel they simply shouldn't partake in certain activities or be in certain places. If you think it's wrong to dance or drink, you wouldn't visit a club because by your very presence there you would undercut any influence you might hope to have, and you also wouldn't want to give such a place your financial support. Yes, you might then think there are people there you want to witness too, but you would then decide that there will be other places and times in which you could witness to them, and be more effective.

I don't doubt that there are dogmatic, narrow-minded religious people who think of entire cities as dens of iniquity, but there is also a much more intelligent and reasonable case for avoiding certain places and activities for religious reasons.
posted by orange swan at 12:10 PM on September 18, 2005

I suspect that Christians, on average, are more rural than average and know fewer people who live in big cities.

I suspect that, accordingly, they have exaggerated ideas about the iniquity of large cities.

(I'm not substantially more sheltered than average, but I was actually startled by how quiet and residential certain parts of New York are; I'm sure that's not uncommon).
posted by Jeanne at 1:02 PM on September 18, 2005

I like your reasoning Orange Swan, but what part of the Bible is the instruction to "flee..." and "...separate..." in? Remember the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament.(I was raised a Catholic, but I think it applies to the other denominations also)

I remember from religion class the stories of the apostles who would go to places which would have been considered sinful. They did not stay in their village. Correct me if I'm wrong.
posted by MrMulan at 1:10 PM on September 18, 2005

MrMulan, regardless of what the apostles did, that's not how it works out for many Christians of more evangelical/fundamentalist leanings. You stick with your own kind. They have Christian bookstores, Christian music, Christian schools, Christian friends, Christian-themed clothes, Christian bumperstickers, Christian exercise groups, Christian romance novels, etc.

At least, when I was an evangelical Christian, I did.

Yes, witness to the sinful, but don't associate with them too closely or they'll rub off on you. Don't date them, make sure you have a core group of Christian friends, watch what you read, censor what you listen to. Bad company corrupts good character, what does light have to do with darkness, don't be unequally yoked. Lead us not into temptation, do not associate with wicked men, Satan appears as an angel of light, be on your guard.

People are afraid of Babylon because they're afraid of losing their faith. I was afraid to go to a secular university because of this fear, but then I lost my faith after two years of Bible college, and it turned out that university suited me just fine.
posted by heatherann at 3:57 PM on September 18, 2005

Some very religious people see big cities are centers of sin, temptation and worldliness which are to be avoided.

And others head to the downtown streets and scream brimstone and hellfire hate-speech at everyone walking past. If I, as a taoist/zen-buddhist, did that...well, I'd be an even worse example of whatever I am, but I'd also be arrested in many places the Christians won't.
posted by Kickstart70 at 7:36 PM on September 18, 2005

I am an Nth generation Mormon living in semi-rural Utah. I am a democrat, have a Ph.D. in the humanities, etc. so I may not be typical. I recently visited NYC and thought it was incredibly cool, and wanted to live there, sorta. But as mentioned above, everything in the city encourages lifestyle choices, if only materialism, that run counter to my flavor of Christianity. Putting aside for a moment the fact that all my neighbors have SUVs and obsess over their yards as if they were holy shrines.

[big logical leap]

I think that the above posts capture it, the need for insularity. We have home schoolers out here who fear central authority and corrupt values, yet their kids can't read. And there is a real distrust of intellectualism, a lot of art, and anything not considered working or middle-class.

I think it's a big soupy mess of rural values, red-state-ism and other cultural baggage which is mistakenly conflated with religion. It's like they use religion as an excuse to circle the wagons and protect their faux rural/suburban culture and class system, which in my opinion really cheapens religion and faith. Of course, there are *good* things they're trying to protect as well--emphasis on the family (as opposed to the shallow version of "family values" "promoted" by national organizations.
posted by mecran01 at 7:37 PM on September 18, 2005

And others head to the downtown streets and scream brimstone and hellfire hate-speech at everyone walking past. If I, as a taoist/zen-buddhist, did that...well, I'd be an even worse example of whatever I am, but I'd also be arrested in many places the Christians won't.

I think it's important to not confuse public, pathological "clown car" christians with the vast majority who don't pull stupid moves like this.
posted by mecran01 at 8:03 PM on September 18, 2005