Progressive is being regressive
May 28, 2013 5:43 PM Subscribe
We live in Mass and my wife got into a car accident the other day while I was out of town. How can I convince the insurance company it was not her fault?
She was pulling onto a street that was perpendicular to her - she couldn't see because the cars on her side of the road were blocking her view. The problem is they are always blocking the view there during most time of the day - so you basically have to wait for a gap, then ease your way through, wait for a car to notice your car nose and then scoot through when they stop.
My wife tried this the other day, pulled forward a bit much and some woman t-boned her basically.
They did not call a cop ::sigh:: however my wife did notify the insurance company. They now are saying it is her fault - want to put 3 points on her license and jack up our rates. This seems crazy her vehicle was struck by someone who was clearly not paying attention. They are saying that it is her fault as the other woman was already in the road - but that is insane - how far down the road does she need to be for that to count?
I also don't understand how the insurance company has any right to determine points on her license because they determined, without any witnesses that she was at fault.
Last note - no one has been able to get in touch with the woman who hit her. She is not answering the phone calls or returning the calls of either my wife or the insurance company. We do have her license plate number.
So
1) Can they actually claim it is her fault without proof? If so how can they say that when she was the one hit?
2) Can they really put point on her license? Is there anything I can do to fight that?
She was pulling onto a street that was perpendicular to her - she couldn't see because the cars on her side of the road were blocking her view. The problem is they are always blocking the view there during most time of the day - so you basically have to wait for a gap, then ease your way through, wait for a car to notice your car nose and then scoot through when they stop.
My wife tried this the other day, pulled forward a bit much and some woman t-boned her basically.
They did not call a cop ::sigh:: however my wife did notify the insurance company. They now are saying it is her fault - want to put 3 points on her license and jack up our rates. This seems crazy her vehicle was struck by someone who was clearly not paying attention. They are saying that it is her fault as the other woman was already in the road - but that is insane - how far down the road does she need to be for that to count?
I also don't understand how the insurance company has any right to determine points on her license because they determined, without any witnesses that she was at fault.
Last note - no one has been able to get in touch with the woman who hit her. She is not answering the phone calls or returning the calls of either my wife or the insurance company. We do have her license plate number.
So
1) Can they actually claim it is her fault without proof? If so how can they say that when she was the one hit?
2) Can they really put point on her license? Is there anything I can do to fight that?
Everywhere I have ever driven, the person already in the lane of travel has the right of way, and a person pulling into that lane must yield. I think she was at fault.
If there is no police report determining fault, the insurance company will make its own decisions on that point.
I have never heard of an insurance company putting points on a driving record. Something is confused.
posted by yclipse at 5:48 PM on May 28, 2013 [28 favorites]
If there is no police report determining fault, the insurance company will make its own decisions on that point.
I have never heard of an insurance company putting points on a driving record. Something is confused.
posted by yclipse at 5:48 PM on May 28, 2013 [28 favorites]
Who had the right of way? Was it a 4 way stop sign? The way you describe it, it sounds like no - your wife pulled out to a street lined with cars with a car already driving, in their lane, with the right of way. I don't see how this isn't your wife's fault. (Yes, the cars that park there and block the view, even if assuming they are parked legally, suck). I'm sorry.
posted by quodlibet at 5:49 PM on May 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by quodlibet at 5:49 PM on May 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Fault has to do with right of way. It sounds like your wife gave her side of the story, where she described not having the right of way, and she got hit by someone who did have right of way. Is the intersection terrible? Absolutely. But if it's as simple as you describe than the "proof" they need is your wife's description. If there are mitigating factors, like the other woman was speeding, or driving recklessly, and you can prove them, then you can prove she wasn't at fault, but since the default here is that your wife is at fault, you would need to have some evidence that she wasn't.
posted by brainmouse at 5:50 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by brainmouse at 5:50 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
how far down the road does she need to be for that to count?
Basically if they can hit you in the time it takes for you to pull out, they aren't far enough down the road for you to pull out.
posted by Jairus at 5:51 PM on May 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
Basically if they can hit you in the time it takes for you to pull out, they aren't far enough down the road for you to pull out.
posted by Jairus at 5:51 PM on May 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
I've done some googling and it sounds like in some states, "insurance company points" are a different system from the points on your license that come from the DMV. You may want to double check, but I suspect that is what they are talking about when they say they're giving her points.
posted by brainmouse at 5:58 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by brainmouse at 5:58 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
If she had been rear-ended then you might have a case. However, to me, a T-bone indicates that your wife didn't have much time to pull out before being struck. If there's not a stop sign or anything preventing the other person from expecting someone to pull out in front of them, then it's logical that the insurance company would blame it on your wife.
posted by thorny at 6:10 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by thorny at 6:10 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
1) Can they actually claim it is her fault without proof?
Yes they can, because the other driver clearly had the right of way. If your wife disagrees, the burden of proof is on her to show that the other driver contributed fault despite having the right of way (ex. they were speeding excessively, had no headlights on at night, etc.)
Insurance companies are not a court of law. There doesn't need to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt or anything like that.
If so how can they say that when she was the one hit?
Should someone who runs a red light and causes an accident be found fault-free because they were the one hit? It's possible to cause an accident and yet be the one who is hit.
2) Can they really put point on her license? Is there anything I can do to fight that?
If the insurance company wants to raise your rates, the only thing to do is negotiate. Money talks. But you may want to see if other insurance companies would be willing to offer anything lower before you threaten to walk.
Last note - no one has been able to get in touch with the woman who hit her. She is not answering the phone calls or returning the calls of either my wife or the insurance company. We do have her license plate number.
Stop harassing this woman. She has no obligation to talk to your wife or your wife's insurance company. Her own insurance company will contact your wife's insurance company to work this out, and there is absolutely no reason for your wife to be calling her.
posted by keep it under cover at 6:16 PM on May 28, 2013 [16 favorites]
Yes they can, because the other driver clearly had the right of way. If your wife disagrees, the burden of proof is on her to show that the other driver contributed fault despite having the right of way (ex. they were speeding excessively, had no headlights on at night, etc.)
Insurance companies are not a court of law. There doesn't need to be proof beyond a reasonable doubt or anything like that.
If so how can they say that when she was the one hit?
Should someone who runs a red light and causes an accident be found fault-free because they were the one hit? It's possible to cause an accident and yet be the one who is hit.
2) Can they really put point on her license? Is there anything I can do to fight that?
If the insurance company wants to raise your rates, the only thing to do is negotiate. Money talks. But you may want to see if other insurance companies would be willing to offer anything lower before you threaten to walk.
Last note - no one has been able to get in touch with the woman who hit her. She is not answering the phone calls or returning the calls of either my wife or the insurance company. We do have her license plate number.
Stop harassing this woman. She has no obligation to talk to your wife or your wife's insurance company. Her own insurance company will contact your wife's insurance company to work this out, and there is absolutely no reason for your wife to be calling her.
posted by keep it under cover at 6:16 PM on May 28, 2013 [16 favorites]
The "nosing out and hoping people will stop" method is not taught in any rules of the road course that I know of. It was her responsibility to only enter the intersection when her lane was clear. If that's not possible, the responsible thing to do is make a right turn and then turn around when it is safe to do so. They are saying it is her fault because it was. Sorry.
posted by gjc at 6:18 PM on May 28, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by gjc at 6:18 PM on May 28, 2013 [9 favorites]
Sorry, she's at fault. It's no big deal. Let this go. It is what it is. She feels bad enough, don't make a federal case.
Thank goodness no one got hurt.
Next time shell call the police.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:25 PM on May 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
Thank goodness no one got hurt.
Next time shell call the police.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:25 PM on May 28, 2013 [5 favorites]
I know the type of intersection you are talking about. Sometimes it is literally impossible to see oncoming traffic, even in one direction. I can certainly see how your wife would not be at fault. The problem is that it's essentially impossible to tell whether she was or not. From the insurance companies' perspectives, they can't tell the difference between a safe entry and an unsafe one, especially in the absence of a police report. In any case, it's done, and making contact with anyone except your own insurance company at this point is probably a waste of time.
posted by wnissen at 6:41 PM on May 28, 2013
posted by wnissen at 6:41 PM on May 28, 2013
Agreeing with everyone else here - how could it be anyone's fault but hers? The other driver wouldn't have known she couldn't see them; they were just innocently driving straight down the street.
posted by something something at 6:43 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by something something at 6:43 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't know if it is true in all states, but my understanding is that an accident report can be filed after the fact with the police, stating your version of events. How impressed will the insurance company be? Hard to say. I've learned (the hard way) to always always always call the police after an accident, no matter how busy you are or how minor the accident.
posted by molasses at 6:48 PM on May 28, 2013
posted by molasses at 6:48 PM on May 28, 2013
Too late for your wife, but if you truly believe the intersection is inherently hazardous, then this is the kind of thing you should bring to your city council (or whatever local governing board you have) at their next meeting.
IzzeYum: "Last note - no one has been able to get in touch with the woman who hit her. She is not answering the phone calls or returning the calls of either my wife or the insurance company."
If the other woman posted a question here giving her side and asking how to handle it, this is exactly the advice the userbase would be giving her.
posted by mkultra at 7:05 PM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
IzzeYum: "Last note - no one has been able to get in touch with the woman who hit her. She is not answering the phone calls or returning the calls of either my wife or the insurance company."
If the other woman posted a question here giving her side and asking how to handle it, this is exactly the advice the userbase would be giving her.
posted by mkultra at 7:05 PM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
I can certainly see how your wife would not be at fault.
Not in the eyes of the law as it is described. In law she is absolutely at fault unless the car that hit here was operating illegally in some way. There is no other gray area here.
Morally? Well, there's plenty of justification that some elements were out of her control (lack of visibility, badly parked cars) but if she couldn't see clearly enough to pull out safely, then she shouldn't have pulled out. That's the black and white of it, and if that meant her sitting there all day, then that's (rather ridiculous, but technically speaking) what she should have done.
Sometimes the law is an arse. Sometimes it puts people in impossible situations. This is one. Your wife is (for everything that matters to the claim) absolutely at fault if everyone was legal.
posted by Brockles at 7:07 PM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
Not in the eyes of the law as it is described. In law she is absolutely at fault unless the car that hit here was operating illegally in some way. There is no other gray area here.
Morally? Well, there's plenty of justification that some elements were out of her control (lack of visibility, badly parked cars) but if she couldn't see clearly enough to pull out safely, then she shouldn't have pulled out. That's the black and white of it, and if that meant her sitting there all day, then that's (rather ridiculous, but technically speaking) what she should have done.
Sometimes the law is an arse. Sometimes it puts people in impossible situations. This is one. Your wife is (for everything that matters to the claim) absolutely at fault if everyone was legal.
posted by Brockles at 7:07 PM on May 28, 2013 [2 favorites]
I was in a work vehicle once that was in a similar accident trying to pull out into traffic. The company lawyer was able to find evidence that the county knew the sight lines at the intersection were unsafe and had neglected to install a stop sign or light, so the driver got out of the ticket. However, your wife doesn't even have a ticket, so I can't see how a lawyer would help. If you really want to sink 40 hours into a battle with the insurance company start doing the research to see if there is evidence that the county or city was at fault for not fixing a known dangerous intersection. Otherwise, accept that your wife is at fault and move on.
posted by COD at 7:22 PM on May 28, 2013
posted by COD at 7:22 PM on May 28, 2013
then ease your way through, wait for a car to notice your car nose and then scoot through when they stop.
This kind of intersection is frustrating, but equally frustrating to me as a driver who has lived in Berkeley, California is the belief some drivers possess that after waiting a certain amount of time, right of way is conferred on them.
These drivers wait what seems to them the appropriate amount of time, then gradually ease out into traffic, sometimes gently easing across four lanes of roadway (with other drivers stopped to their left and to their right) because it is "their turn". Driving rules provide drivers with a basic expectation of what kind of behavior they can expect from other drivers - one of which is, no one will ease their way out into your lane when you have right of way.
The only thing that could possibly help in this circumstance is, as other commenters have mentioned, if the other driver was driving far too fast or recklessly. I understand the frustration you must be feeling - perhaps this is an opportunity to reach out to local government to extend the no parking lines so future drivers, including you and your wife, will have greater ranges of line-of-sight. We were successful getting parking laws changed on our extremely narrow windy little street with a modest amount of letter-writing.
What should your wife do in the future? Wait until she is entirely certain no one is coming. If that is impossible, turn around and use a different road (I avoid certain roads for just this reason).
posted by arnicae at 7:23 PM on May 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
This kind of intersection is frustrating, but equally frustrating to me as a driver who has lived in Berkeley, California is the belief some drivers possess that after waiting a certain amount of time, right of way is conferred on them.
These drivers wait what seems to them the appropriate amount of time, then gradually ease out into traffic, sometimes gently easing across four lanes of roadway (with other drivers stopped to their left and to their right) because it is "their turn". Driving rules provide drivers with a basic expectation of what kind of behavior they can expect from other drivers - one of which is, no one will ease their way out into your lane when you have right of way.
The only thing that could possibly help in this circumstance is, as other commenters have mentioned, if the other driver was driving far too fast or recklessly. I understand the frustration you must be feeling - perhaps this is an opportunity to reach out to local government to extend the no parking lines so future drivers, including you and your wife, will have greater ranges of line-of-sight. We were successful getting parking laws changed on our extremely narrow windy little street with a modest amount of letter-writing.
What should your wife do in the future? Wait until she is entirely certain no one is coming. If that is impossible, turn around and use a different road (I avoid certain roads for just this reason).
posted by arnicae at 7:23 PM on May 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I have no opinion whether your wife was "at fault" based on your description; and because you mentioned Massachusetts and I'm licensed there, I have to clarify that I'm not your attorney and I can't give you legal advice. Generally speaking, people should ignore legal advice they find on the Internet anyway. Most of it's terrible and wrong.
However, I'd mention two things you might think about—either on your own, or with an attorney (not me!) if you choose. First, you characterize the intersection as being inherently dangerous. "[Cars] are always blocking the view there," etc. If that's true, perhaps other accidents have occurred there. You might look into that. Second, you state that the other driver was "clearly" not paying attention. What facts make that "clear"? For instance, did your wife see the other driver looking down at the dashboard before impact? Was the other driver talking on a cell phone? Did the other driver not brake? Did she get out and tell your wife, "I'm so sorry, I wasn't paying attention"? Et cetera.
Once again, none of this is legal advice and I offer no opinion on whether any of these considerations would affect your argument with the insurance company in a positive or negative way. I simply don't have enough information, and I'm not permitted to speculate. But those are some things that you might look into, and decide for yourself. Good luck. I'm glad no one was (apparently) hurt.
posted by cribcage at 7:27 PM on May 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
However, I'd mention two things you might think about—either on your own, or with an attorney (not me!) if you choose. First, you characterize the intersection as being inherently dangerous. "[Cars] are always blocking the view there," etc. If that's true, perhaps other accidents have occurred there. You might look into that. Second, you state that the other driver was "clearly" not paying attention. What facts make that "clear"? For instance, did your wife see the other driver looking down at the dashboard before impact? Was the other driver talking on a cell phone? Did the other driver not brake? Did she get out and tell your wife, "I'm so sorry, I wasn't paying attention"? Et cetera.
Once again, none of this is legal advice and I offer no opinion on whether any of these considerations would affect your argument with the insurance company in a positive or negative way. I simply don't have enough information, and I'm not permitted to speculate. But those are some things that you might look into, and decide for yourself. Good luck. I'm glad no one was (apparently) hurt.
posted by cribcage at 7:27 PM on May 28, 2013 [4 favorites]
FWIW, I had the same thing happen (in Louisiana) and I couldn't get out of the at-fault, even with a lawyer. I think the lawyer was able to knock it down a bit but I was still at fault.
posted by radioamy at 7:41 PM on May 28, 2013
posted by radioamy at 7:41 PM on May 28, 2013
As you describe it, it seems clear to me (absent mitigating factors) that your wife did not have the right-of-way, and therefore was legally at fault. It's analogous to the widespread, but illegal, practice in Massachusetts where the first (and sometimes, second) driver turning left at an intersection that does not have separate left-turn signals will make the left turn before traffic in the other direction that is proceeding straight pulls through the intersection. It's a common custom, but if there's a collision, the person turning left is legally responsible.
If sight lines are always bad at the intersection, talk to municipal authorities about putting in an all-way stop, or putting in parking restrictions near the intersection to ensure a better line of sight. If it's constant traffic that is the root of the problem, an all-way stop might be best.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:43 PM on May 28, 2013
If sight lines are always bad at the intersection, talk to municipal authorities about putting in an all-way stop, or putting in parking restrictions near the intersection to ensure a better line of sight. If it's constant traffic that is the root of the problem, an all-way stop might be best.
posted by brianogilvie at 7:43 PM on May 28, 2013
Yes, take a hit, suck it up, pay the fines, sorry for you, etc.
But I'm afraid some of these answers are soft-pedaling the issue: You're badly confused about a universal traffic rule, by which your wife was at fault in every state and municipality in the US.
If you don't understand that the right of way on a given road belongs to the vehicles on the road, not a vehicle entering from a stop, then you're risking a lot more than fines and insurance premiums. You're going to get yourself and/or others injured or killed.
I'm not being mean. Go back and study your state drivers manual, which is free for the asking from the Dept of Motor Vehicles. Traffic laws exist for a reason.
posted by LonnieK at 8:00 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
But I'm afraid some of these answers are soft-pedaling the issue: You're badly confused about a universal traffic rule, by which your wife was at fault in every state and municipality in the US.
If you don't understand that the right of way on a given road belongs to the vehicles on the road, not a vehicle entering from a stop, then you're risking a lot more than fines and insurance premiums. You're going to get yourself and/or others injured or killed.
I'm not being mean. Go back and study your state drivers manual, which is free for the asking from the Dept of Motor Vehicles. Traffic laws exist for a reason.
posted by LonnieK at 8:00 PM on May 28, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm glad nobody was hurt. You two should be, too. Going forward (no pun intended) she'll be a lot more careful at intersections like this, and the extra insurance cost and points can be chalked up as further encouragement to be more careful. It happens. I was involved in a few minor accidents as a 16-year-old driver, but after a large accident -- my fault, because I turned left into oncoming traffic, even though they ran the red, happens to lots of folks -- I got wise, got careful and haven't had an at-fault accident in 25 years (just getting rear-ended gently once, and once delivering a glancing blow to a box that fell off someone's truck.)
Just make sure you gently suggest that the two of you (don't hang her out to dry) do a little light reading on traffic rules and right-of-way, so that she actually does wise up. The rules don't always feel fair, but they are what they are, and she should know them...in particular knowing when you'll always be considered at-fault even if someone else contributes to the accident.
posted by davejay at 10:38 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just make sure you gently suggest that the two of you (don't hang her out to dry) do a little light reading on traffic rules and right-of-way, so that she actually does wise up. The rules don't always feel fair, but they are what they are, and she should know them...in particular knowing when you'll always be considered at-fault even if someone else contributes to the accident.
posted by davejay at 10:38 PM on May 28, 2013 [1 favorite]
both answers depend on the state your insurance policy is in (and maybe the state the accident occurred). they can claim whatever they want, it's up to the courts to decide if it's right, if it ever gets that far. hashing it out with a lawyer for 30 minutes could be worth wile if your deductible is more than $500.
posted by cupcake1337 at 11:46 PM on May 28, 2013
posted by cupcake1337 at 11:46 PM on May 28, 2013
Best answer: Ah, you're in Massachusetts, home of many nonsensical things like devotion to the Red Sox Nation, a state dessert that is called a pie but that everyone knows is a cake, and the home of the Safe Driver Insurance Plan, which is basically a bad driver point system. It's also incredibly convoluted and would make the smartest person want to pull their hair out.
But it also reads like this accident was your wife's fault.
In MA, car insurance rates used to be set by the government. Everyone paid the same price and that price was high, which was great if you were a crap driver but sucked if you were a good one.
In 2008, the law changed and all insurance companies are allowed to charge whatever they want in the state, but they have to work with the Merit Rating Board.
Progressive and most other companies still use the SDIP system.
This system allows insurance companies to charge more (or less) based on a person's driving record and what's called "surchargeable events." These events get reported to the RMV and the points you're thinking of are the same surchargeable events that are added to your driving record and used as the basis for your premium in MA. Get enough points and you have to go to driver re-education school.
The crappy part about this is that even if you're not at fault, the fact that you're in an accident can still count as a surchargeable event and you get points.
1) Can they actually claim it is her fault without proof? If so how can they say that when she was the one hit?
Yes. In MA, there are 19 standards of fault. Looks like your wife is guilty of code 31.
After an accident, a person gets a Surcharge Notice in the mail. You can contest this for $50.
If you can prove there's no stop sign and your wife had the right of way (let's assume the other driver ran a stop sign or red light or whatever), then submit that to Progressive AND the Surcharge Appeal to the RMV. They may not give her points.
The SDIP works with the MA RMV and they report incidents to them. The RMV can (and does) add those surchargeable incidents to your record.
It's never too late to file a police report. You may want to do that asap, particularly because you have the other driver's plates.
Be prepared that this incident will be reported to the RMV, your wife's rates are going to go up and this will stay on her driving record for 6 or 7 years.
But importantly, be really thankful that nobody was hurt.
posted by kinetic at 5:33 AM on May 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
But it also reads like this accident was your wife's fault.
In MA, car insurance rates used to be set by the government. Everyone paid the same price and that price was high, which was great if you were a crap driver but sucked if you were a good one.
In 2008, the law changed and all insurance companies are allowed to charge whatever they want in the state, but they have to work with the Merit Rating Board.
Progressive and most other companies still use the SDIP system.
This system allows insurance companies to charge more (or less) based on a person's driving record and what's called "surchargeable events." These events get reported to the RMV and the points you're thinking of are the same surchargeable events that are added to your driving record and used as the basis for your premium in MA. Get enough points and you have to go to driver re-education school.
The crappy part about this is that even if you're not at fault, the fact that you're in an accident can still count as a surchargeable event and you get points.
1) Can they actually claim it is her fault without proof? If so how can they say that when she was the one hit?
Yes. In MA, there are 19 standards of fault. Looks like your wife is guilty of code 31.
After an accident, a person gets a Surcharge Notice in the mail. You can contest this for $50.
If you can prove there's no stop sign and your wife had the right of way (let's assume the other driver ran a stop sign or red light or whatever), then submit that to Progressive AND the Surcharge Appeal to the RMV. They may not give her points.
The SDIP works with the MA RMV and they report incidents to them. The RMV can (and does) add those surchargeable incidents to your record.
It's never too late to file a police report. You may want to do that asap, particularly because you have the other driver's plates.
Be prepared that this incident will be reported to the RMV, your wife's rates are going to go up and this will stay on her driving record for 6 or 7 years.
But importantly, be really thankful that nobody was hurt.
posted by kinetic at 5:33 AM on May 29, 2013 [5 favorites]
This same exact thing happened to me (in Pennsylvania). Same bad intersection, same need to inch forward, same t-boning by a car proceeding along that didn't see me soon enough to avoid me. I was not happy to learn that, according to PA insurance regulations, I was considered to be the driver at fault. I thought the intersection design was to blame, and that having to assign fault was unfair. I didn't pursue legal action, but I probably should have, if only to call attention to poor intersection engineering and perhaps spur redesign. I didn't, nothing has changed, and it's still a terrible intersection, but now I avoid it at all costs.
posted by citygirl at 8:23 AM on May 29, 2013
posted by citygirl at 8:23 AM on May 29, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
But given that it's history, you may be S.O.L.
Sorry.
posted by colin_l at 5:48 PM on May 28, 2013