How do I deal with someone I dated for six weeks two years ago...
May 19, 2013 9:37 AM Subscribe
... who was not my friend beforehand and dumped me dishonestly and, it seems, also rather callously?
This happened 2 years ago (!) and it should be SO over by now, but in the past year our circle of common acquaintances in this small college town has multiplied in such a way that he is even - literally - in my food sometimes.
Two years ago we had a very short and painful (to me) "dating phase" of six weeks with this person - let's call him Waldo - who is about six years younger than me. It was a very "relationshipy" period of time, intense, he was superexcited and gave me love poems, we even spent a weekend at W's home town meeting his parents. And it ended with W breaking up with me a week later after meeting someone new.
In general (tl;dr), the questions I would like answered are:
1. Am I being too mean in applying Hanlon's razor? Or too generous? How much am I allowed to expect?
2. How does forgiveness work when there is no "friendship" or "relationship" as a basis to connect and resolve the issue, no attempt to apologize or redress, and the feeling from my side that I was used and discarded?
3. Are there alternatives to forgiveness and acceptance that don't make me look like a vindictive asshole?
Question 1 applies especially to the breakup and the months after that. Question 2 applies especially to the present.
But first, some background info:
0. In hindsight, he did right in dumping me, I wasn't good for a relationship at the time. I was very confused (see 1.) but relieved when it ended. Relieved, because it what was a very trying, transitional period in my life after graduate school, financially up in the air and looking for a job without really knowing which path I wanted to take. So it took away some stress. I had two academic job offers that VANISHED before my eyes within a month, both of them for organizational-kafkaesque reasons. My former classmates were moving out of the city and I was basically jobless, directionless, alone. And poor. It was a bad time. He probably got bored because I wasn't much fun to be around back then. W was in his early twenties and filled with energy and curiosity and all those things young people enjoy supremely (as they should!). I really liked that, and I think he can be an interesting person. But he was also pretty dominating (and so am I), very critical of STUFF and just kind of overbearing. A very interesting person, but I think in the long run he would also have rubbed ME the wrong way.
I have trouble finding BAD words for him that don't seem exaggerated, but I can't call him nice either... he may very well be supernice, I just only felt it at the beginning and then BAM! MotherFuckingLiar!
1. When the new school term started, a week after he was already cold and distant (because had already met a whole bunch of new friends and, I would find out later, a new girl, whose hand he was seen holding in the street about a month after me). The last couple of "relationship"-weeks were confusing, the family visit was brutal (only child, overbearing mothers and so much latent vitriol). I may have called him once or twice after that, either with no answer or no meaningful communication. On Wednesday we had a lunch date, I didn't want to cancel, so I got out of bed with migraine, took Tylenol and went. He was already sitting, having lunch on his own when I got there, as he was in a hurry, so it was a short date. I think I event mentioned in passing that I was sick. And then two days later I got a text one evening which said "we should talk soon".
So after about a week or so of his/our distance and increasingly odd behaviour, my distrust and increasingly odd behaviour and walking around with a really heavy weight in my stomach, I chickened out and answered the text with something to this effect: "I get it, we probably don't even need to discuss it, I understand, have a nice life."
His answer (I wrote it down in my diary): "I would really like a chance to talk to you in person. I don't want to end anything!"
So I went. It went something like this:
Me: Hi.
W: Hi. I think I may have phrased my message last night wrong. I do want to end this.
Me: Ok.
W: [A personal version of "it's not you it's me" complete with horrible ex-girlfriend who broke his heart at 16, fears that he will die an early death and the wish that we will remain friends because "he enjoys talking to me"]
Me: Uh-huh. So you already knew you could "not fall in love with anyone because you are so broken" but still chose to make me think you were into this?
W: Well, I knew that I wanted to get to know you anyway.
Me: There are other ways you can get to know people. [Either silence or other stuff I don't remember.] Do you mind if we stay here for a while so I can think for a moment and get everything out that I want to say to you? In my last breakup I didn't get a chance to say everything I felt and it haunted me for a while.
So we sat there for about an hour, talking mostly about "the weather" because I couldn't come up with anything else. Also told me about all of his exes.
At the end, I also said that I didn't think it was fair to except friendship or things going back to normal, because people need time and distance, but I promised that I would try.
After a bit over one week after our talk I did come up with someone I needed to say/ask. So I wrote him an e-mail basically saying I didn't understand it, and that I could not believe he had felt nothing. He answered, it was "not nothing", but that there were "other feelings moving him now." Dot dot dot end of e-mail. No reply from me as I had this sneaky feeling, but stupid as I was it took me a while to put two and two together, and it wasn't after numerous witness reports and some first-hand evidence three months later that I saw the lie for what it was.
Before I had pieced it together though, we had one meeting to give him back all the stuff he'd left at my home and we had another strange talk about nothing. He kept theorizing about love. What is love? At about that time there was an ongoing discussion on his Facebook about love, men and women, and beauty and among a bunch of other stuff, Waldo wrote: "Everyone knows men age like wine, women age like milk". Ouch. It was meant as a cheeky comment, but ouch. Cue to me trying with all my might not to take this personally.
My working place was in his building (not anymore, thank goodness, though not that it would matter), so we also met often in the corridors. I wasn't doing well, putting a happy face, pretty confused still, saying "hey how are you doing, nice to see you, bye". It must have been very inconvenient to him to have me so "present". I have to admit that thinking about this today gives me schadenfreude, but at the time I was struggling to come to terms with EVERYTHING in life, including this one crappy situation. I was also probably crying every day for all sorts of reasons and looked like crap.
I got really emotional once when I walked to school and he, walking on the other direction, stopped to tie his shoelaces just as I was walking by. And I deleted him from Facebook when I stood at a concert with my friends where both he and his mother walked by me inexplicably treating me like air. From that point onwards I thought, message received and I was just nodded whenever we saw each other. Just as a gesture, as I don't feel comfortable pretending people aren't there (terrible actress, you'd see right through me).
2. The crucial part for me is: I find forgiving and forgetting incompatible with accepting this person in my life - unless he "makes it good" by offering an apology or showing how much he regrets what he did because I didn't deserve it, etc. And I don't feel like I'm in a position to expect an apology or redress because we were never friends, I can't honestly believe he cared or cares about my feelings, or I for his. And because his behaviour left a very lasting impression in me - I experienced him as a player and a liar - I'm not sure I want to be friends with this person. As far as I'm concerned, he treated me the way you treat people you want to get rid of as soon as possible. My impressions and feelings about this entire situation are very contradictory.
I think that for me it's mostly about the lie. The other stuff may be a bit more relative - in his defense, they're still together. He may well be a really nice person I misunderstood, or he was confused himself with his Deep Thoughts about love in an emotional dark chamber, caught in a difficult situation he hadn't the experience or the maturity to deal with properly.
Whenever I see him, I think of that horrible time* and the fool I played by genuinely trying to understand his confusion, while he was lying and probably wishing for me to disappear. I think of his claims of appreciation from back then, and the carefree politeness of today that I have to play along with, otherwise I'm just a miserable, jealous OLD ex-girlfriend who never got over him.
*It was pretty bad. I'm better now. About 6 months after this I checked into a depression treatment center, after one year the depression was totally gone and I'm doing well now. Still working on dealing with this kind of situation. For what it's worth, my therapist says W is a jerk I should ignore. I like my therapist and I'm satisfied with my treatment, but I'd like a second opinion on this.
Two years ago we had a very short and painful (to me) "dating phase" of six weeks with this person - let's call him Waldo - who is about six years younger than me. It was a very "relationshipy" period of time, intense, he was superexcited and gave me love poems, we even spent a weekend at W's home town meeting his parents. And it ended with W breaking up with me a week later after meeting someone new.
In general (tl;dr), the questions I would like answered are:
1. Am I being too mean in applying Hanlon's razor? Or too generous? How much am I allowed to expect?
2. How does forgiveness work when there is no "friendship" or "relationship" as a basis to connect and resolve the issue, no attempt to apologize or redress, and the feeling from my side that I was used and discarded?
3. Are there alternatives to forgiveness and acceptance that don't make me look like a vindictive asshole?
Question 1 applies especially to the breakup and the months after that. Question 2 applies especially to the present.
But first, some background info:
0. In hindsight, he did right in dumping me, I wasn't good for a relationship at the time. I was very confused (see 1.) but relieved when it ended. Relieved, because it what was a very trying, transitional period in my life after graduate school, financially up in the air and looking for a job without really knowing which path I wanted to take. So it took away some stress. I had two academic job offers that VANISHED before my eyes within a month, both of them for organizational-kafkaesque reasons. My former classmates were moving out of the city and I was basically jobless, directionless, alone. And poor. It was a bad time. He probably got bored because I wasn't much fun to be around back then. W was in his early twenties and filled with energy and curiosity and all those things young people enjoy supremely (as they should!). I really liked that, and I think he can be an interesting person. But he was also pretty dominating (and so am I), very critical of STUFF and just kind of overbearing. A very interesting person, but I think in the long run he would also have rubbed ME the wrong way.
I have trouble finding BAD words for him that don't seem exaggerated, but I can't call him nice either... he may very well be supernice, I just only felt it at the beginning and then BAM! MotherFuckingLiar!
1. When the new school term started, a week after he was already cold and distant (because had already met a whole bunch of new friends and, I would find out later, a new girl, whose hand he was seen holding in the street about a month after me). The last couple of "relationship"-weeks were confusing, the family visit was brutal (only child, overbearing mothers and so much latent vitriol). I may have called him once or twice after that, either with no answer or no meaningful communication. On Wednesday we had a lunch date, I didn't want to cancel, so I got out of bed with migraine, took Tylenol and went. He was already sitting, having lunch on his own when I got there, as he was in a hurry, so it was a short date. I think I event mentioned in passing that I was sick. And then two days later I got a text one evening which said "we should talk soon".
So after about a week or so of his/our distance and increasingly odd behaviour, my distrust and increasingly odd behaviour and walking around with a really heavy weight in my stomach, I chickened out and answered the text with something to this effect: "I get it, we probably don't even need to discuss it, I understand, have a nice life."
His answer (I wrote it down in my diary): "I would really like a chance to talk to you in person. I don't want to end anything!"
So I went. It went something like this:
Me: Hi.
W: Hi. I think I may have phrased my message last night wrong. I do want to end this.
Me: Ok.
W: [A personal version of "it's not you it's me" complete with horrible ex-girlfriend who broke his heart at 16, fears that he will die an early death and the wish that we will remain friends because "he enjoys talking to me"]
Me: Uh-huh. So you already knew you could "not fall in love with anyone because you are so broken" but still chose to make me think you were into this?
W: Well, I knew that I wanted to get to know you anyway.
Me: There are other ways you can get to know people. [Either silence or other stuff I don't remember.] Do you mind if we stay here for a while so I can think for a moment and get everything out that I want to say to you? In my last breakup I didn't get a chance to say everything I felt and it haunted me for a while.
So we sat there for about an hour, talking mostly about "the weather" because I couldn't come up with anything else. Also told me about all of his exes.
At the end, I also said that I didn't think it was fair to except friendship or things going back to normal, because people need time and distance, but I promised that I would try.
After a bit over one week after our talk I did come up with someone I needed to say/ask. So I wrote him an e-mail basically saying I didn't understand it, and that I could not believe he had felt nothing. He answered, it was "not nothing", but that there were "other feelings moving him now." Dot dot dot end of e-mail. No reply from me as I had this sneaky feeling, but stupid as I was it took me a while to put two and two together, and it wasn't after numerous witness reports and some first-hand evidence three months later that I saw the lie for what it was.
Before I had pieced it together though, we had one meeting to give him back all the stuff he'd left at my home and we had another strange talk about nothing. He kept theorizing about love. What is love? At about that time there was an ongoing discussion on his Facebook about love, men and women, and beauty and among a bunch of other stuff, Waldo wrote: "Everyone knows men age like wine, women age like milk". Ouch. It was meant as a cheeky comment, but ouch. Cue to me trying with all my might not to take this personally.
My working place was in his building (not anymore, thank goodness, though not that it would matter), so we also met often in the corridors. I wasn't doing well, putting a happy face, pretty confused still, saying "hey how are you doing, nice to see you, bye". It must have been very inconvenient to him to have me so "present". I have to admit that thinking about this today gives me schadenfreude, but at the time I was struggling to come to terms with EVERYTHING in life, including this one crappy situation. I was also probably crying every day for all sorts of reasons and looked like crap.
I got really emotional once when I walked to school and he, walking on the other direction, stopped to tie his shoelaces just as I was walking by. And I deleted him from Facebook when I stood at a concert with my friends where both he and his mother walked by me inexplicably treating me like air. From that point onwards I thought, message received and I was just nodded whenever we saw each other. Just as a gesture, as I don't feel comfortable pretending people aren't there (terrible actress, you'd see right through me).
2. The crucial part for me is: I find forgiving and forgetting incompatible with accepting this person in my life - unless he "makes it good" by offering an apology or showing how much he regrets what he did because I didn't deserve it, etc. And I don't feel like I'm in a position to expect an apology or redress because we were never friends, I can't honestly believe he cared or cares about my feelings, or I for his. And because his behaviour left a very lasting impression in me - I experienced him as a player and a liar - I'm not sure I want to be friends with this person. As far as I'm concerned, he treated me the way you treat people you want to get rid of as soon as possible. My impressions and feelings about this entire situation are very contradictory.
I think that for me it's mostly about the lie. The other stuff may be a bit more relative - in his defense, they're still together. He may well be a really nice person I misunderstood, or he was confused himself with his Deep Thoughts about love in an emotional dark chamber, caught in a difficult situation he hadn't the experience or the maturity to deal with properly.
Whenever I see him, I think of that horrible time* and the fool I played by genuinely trying to understand his confusion, while he was lying and probably wishing for me to disappear. I think of his claims of appreciation from back then, and the carefree politeness of today that I have to play along with, otherwise I'm just a miserable, jealous OLD ex-girlfriend who never got over him.
*It was pretty bad. I'm better now. About 6 months after this I checked into a depression treatment center, after one year the depression was totally gone and I'm doing well now. Still working on dealing with this kind of situation. For what it's worth, my therapist says W is a jerk I should ignore. I like my therapist and I'm satisfied with my treatment, but I'd like a second opinion on this.
Best answer: If you have this many upsetting thoughts about someone you knew only briefly so long ago, it's probably not about that person. I'd ask your therapist to help you figure out what's really wrong. Your feelings are disproportionate to the actual events. Maybe try antidepressants, if you haven't already?
posted by Houstonian at 9:50 AM on May 19, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by Houstonian at 9:50 AM on May 19, 2013 [13 favorites]
Okay, there is a lot going on here and I've read through it and I'm going to respond based upon my reading of the situation, which is that you feel humiliated by this guy who broke up with you after a very short period of dating because you feel that he never really cared for you and lied to you about that after the fact when he said that he did.
I dated a wonderful, sweet, lovely person in college and tried for years to convince myself that I loved him enough to stay with him forever. I finally ended it when I cheated on him with my ex-boyfriend. I felt terrible and I still regret every second of what I put him through. It is the worst thing I have ever done (and, hopefully, will ever do). But what I did had absolutely nothing to do with him, and everything to do with me. Maybe this is hard to hear, but even though you dated this guy for a while, you were not his entire life. He had stuff going on inside him you couldn't possibly understand in such a short period of time, and even now you're making assumptions about his motivations then and since. You're taking personally something that should be a minor blip in both your lives.
That said, you don't have to like him or be his friend. For your own sake, though, you really need to stop letting him take up so much emotional space in your brain. What he did was not some grand conspiracy. He was younger than you, probably confused, maybe a bit of a dick. But he didn't set out to ruin your life, and right now you're sort of writing that role for him. You need to figure out how to move on, and I think your therapist is a good place to start with helping you get there.
posted by something something at 9:51 AM on May 19, 2013 [17 favorites]
I dated a wonderful, sweet, lovely person in college and tried for years to convince myself that I loved him enough to stay with him forever. I finally ended it when I cheated on him with my ex-boyfriend. I felt terrible and I still regret every second of what I put him through. It is the worst thing I have ever done (and, hopefully, will ever do). But what I did had absolutely nothing to do with him, and everything to do with me. Maybe this is hard to hear, but even though you dated this guy for a while, you were not his entire life. He had stuff going on inside him you couldn't possibly understand in such a short period of time, and even now you're making assumptions about his motivations then and since. You're taking personally something that should be a minor blip in both your lives.
That said, you don't have to like him or be his friend. For your own sake, though, you really need to stop letting him take up so much emotional space in your brain. What he did was not some grand conspiracy. He was younger than you, probably confused, maybe a bit of a dick. But he didn't set out to ruin your life, and right now you're sort of writing that role for him. You need to figure out how to move on, and I think your therapist is a good place to start with helping you get there.
posted by something something at 9:51 AM on May 19, 2013 [17 favorites]
He was young, you hardly knew each other, you were going through heaps of stress and possibly not very fun. He possibly had influence from his mother, he met someone, and apparently didn't cheat on you with them, but moved on quickly afterwards indicating he wasn't hugely invested in you. He even tried to end it kindly with the old cliche, it's not you, it's me. Yep, you were hurt and he wasn't fantastic but he wasn't a cad either (and I've met quite a few).
But here's the thing, I left my husband of 20 years about 2 years ago. Living with him had become so unbearable that I had TMJ every time I laid eyes on him. Apart from the crappy he stuff he did during the marriage, he's continued to be irresponsible, ran up a debt on my credit card when I was underemployed, stressed both young adult children with a number of despicable behaviours, including being arrested for indecent exposure, borrowed money off the kids (he earns $90k, they are in minimum wage) and any other number of arsehole acts, and I don't think about him anymore, except a. When he does something else irritating, or b. to remember how happy I am without him.
He's not worth you wasting anymore time on thinking about, let alone forgiving. Every time you think about him, acknowledge the thought with the observer part of your brain, and then let it go and think of something else, or do something else. It'll take practice, but really - you don't need to focus on him any more.
posted by b33j at 10:06 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
But here's the thing, I left my husband of 20 years about 2 years ago. Living with him had become so unbearable that I had TMJ every time I laid eyes on him. Apart from the crappy he stuff he did during the marriage, he's continued to be irresponsible, ran up a debt on my credit card when I was underemployed, stressed both young adult children with a number of despicable behaviours, including being arrested for indecent exposure, borrowed money off the kids (he earns $90k, they are in minimum wage) and any other number of arsehole acts, and I don't think about him anymore, except a. When he does something else irritating, or b. to remember how happy I am without him.
He's not worth you wasting anymore time on thinking about, let alone forgiving. Every time you think about him, acknowledge the thought with the observer part of your brain, and then let it go and think of something else, or do something else. It'll take practice, but really - you don't need to focus on him any more.
posted by b33j at 10:06 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Agree that this guy was--and maybe still is--an immature jerk. There is absolutely no reason you have to be friends with someone who treated you that way, whatever his reasons were. He was responsible for his own decision to behave in a less than honourable way, and your poor opinion of him is one of the consequences he chose when he decided on that course of action. You don't owe him anything except perhaps basic civility, and even that is more for the comfort of those around you, and for the preservation of your own dignity.
I also wonder if it might help you to give some thought to what the concept of forgiveness really means. In my family of origin, for example, "forgiving" somebody meant pretending that they had never wronged you, and going out of your way to give them a chance to do the same thing to you again--anything else was seen as "holding a grudge" or "being vindictive." Of course, this definition is very handy for nasty people, and I always wondered why the line that "forgiveness is for yourself" sounded like pure BS to me.
It was not until well into adulthood that I began to examine some of this, and developed my own concept of forgiveness: now, I think of it as returning myself to a neutral, centred stance with regard to that person, in the way you might in yoga, or perhaps more relevantly, martial arts. That way, I am centred, and not striving for anything with that person. I am also in a position to choose my next actions based on what they do next, and am able to react to their behaviour, and my own responses to it, in the here and now, rather than having everything tainted by the past. Sometimes, the other person does something that makes me think I want to continue a relationship with them, and other times, they probably don't even know that they have been "forgiven." But either way, I always feel more peaceful about the situation.
BTW, one thing I could not find in your question was how this person is acting towards you now--is he reaching out or is he happy with nodding, civil acquaintanceship? If it's the latter, a lot of your angst is probably relating to the fact that his presence brings back memories of a time in your life where you were not happy with other things, and perhaps your therapist can help you separate those feelings from what is objectively going on today.
posted by rpfields at 10:15 AM on May 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
I also wonder if it might help you to give some thought to what the concept of forgiveness really means. In my family of origin, for example, "forgiving" somebody meant pretending that they had never wronged you, and going out of your way to give them a chance to do the same thing to you again--anything else was seen as "holding a grudge" or "being vindictive." Of course, this definition is very handy for nasty people, and I always wondered why the line that "forgiveness is for yourself" sounded like pure BS to me.
It was not until well into adulthood that I began to examine some of this, and developed my own concept of forgiveness: now, I think of it as returning myself to a neutral, centred stance with regard to that person, in the way you might in yoga, or perhaps more relevantly, martial arts. That way, I am centred, and not striving for anything with that person. I am also in a position to choose my next actions based on what they do next, and am able to react to their behaviour, and my own responses to it, in the here and now, rather than having everything tainted by the past. Sometimes, the other person does something that makes me think I want to continue a relationship with them, and other times, they probably don't even know that they have been "forgiven." But either way, I always feel more peaceful about the situation.
BTW, one thing I could not find in your question was how this person is acting towards you now--is he reaching out or is he happy with nodding, civil acquaintanceship? If it's the latter, a lot of your angst is probably relating to the fact that his presence brings back memories of a time in your life where you were not happy with other things, and perhaps your therapist can help you separate those feelings from what is objectively going on today.
posted by rpfields at 10:15 AM on May 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
en.wikipedia.org Hanlon's_razor Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity, but don't rule out malice.
He sounds shallow. He started a relationship with you, found someone he liked better for whatever reasons, and created a story to make it feel okay. The relationship didn't yet have depth or commitment, so he wasn't interested in helping you feel better about where you were in life.
You're unable to let go of the hurt and anger. The standard response for this is, when/if you encounter him, be casually and distantly courteous. The most healthy thing for you is to figure out, with or without therapy, how to let go. I've been wronged in business, friendship and love. More than once. Bitterness, anger and resentment hurt you, and don't affect him. The only revenge or resolution worth having is to be a terrific person living a terrific life. Focus on yourself, not on him. Be fabulous, in whatever way you choose.
posted by theora55 at 10:18 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
He sounds shallow. He started a relationship with you, found someone he liked better for whatever reasons, and created a story to make it feel okay. The relationship didn't yet have depth or commitment, so he wasn't interested in helping you feel better about where you were in life.
You're unable to let go of the hurt and anger. The standard response for this is, when/if you encounter him, be casually and distantly courteous. The most healthy thing for you is to figure out, with or without therapy, how to let go. I've been wronged in business, friendship and love. More than once. Bitterness, anger and resentment hurt you, and don't affect him. The only revenge or resolution worth having is to be a terrific person living a terrific life. Focus on yourself, not on him. Be fabulous, in whatever way you choose.
posted by theora55 at 10:18 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Over a thousand words about a six week relationship two years ago. Choose to move on with or without therapy as soon as possible.
posted by BenPens at 10:29 AM on May 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
posted by BenPens at 10:29 AM on May 19, 2013 [18 favorites]
In life, you can expect as much as you want to. Expecting something doesn't mean it's rational to expect it. It doesn't mean you're going to get what you're expecting. Him not treating you the way you expected to be treated doesn't make him a bad person. Honestly, based on the fact that you're stewing over this after all this time makes me wonder what he could have done that would have worked.
Forgiveness isn't about the other person and them changing their behaviour. Forgiveness is all about you accepting, in your own head, that what happened happened, and letting go of any desire to change the past. Someone saying sorry isn't necessary to forgive them. There is nothing that can be done to change the situation that happened 2 years ago. No time machines exist. Telling yourself it should have gone differently isn't going to work. You need to let go of whatever narrative you have in your head about what a terrible person he is. Here's a starting point - someone breaking up with you doesn't make them a bad person. You even say yourself that you weren't in a good place for a relationship at the time and that he did right in dumping you. Focus on that, instead of winding yourself up about it.
Were you like you are now, then? You've been broken up for over seventeen times as long as you were together. You're blowing this way out of proportion. You need to talk to your therapist some more about this and also ask them if they have any ideas as to how you can get over this.
I think you should grieve over this. Follow the grief process. It sounds like you're stuck in Anger right now so what I would do is do things like write long angry letters to this guy, and then burn them. Or moan at your friends or therapist about how terrible he was. Then, most importantly, do something that you'll find healing and soothing. Bit more info. Let the anger out, then let it go by making yourself feel good.
Another thing you could try is counting your blessings. How is your life good, right now? What things would you be missing out on if you were still in a relationship with this guy? Etc. Bring yourself back to Now and all of the good things that are right in front of you. Focus on them more and less on the past.
posted by Solomon at 10:45 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Forgiveness isn't about the other person and them changing their behaviour. Forgiveness is all about you accepting, in your own head, that what happened happened, and letting go of any desire to change the past. Someone saying sorry isn't necessary to forgive them. There is nothing that can be done to change the situation that happened 2 years ago. No time machines exist. Telling yourself it should have gone differently isn't going to work. You need to let go of whatever narrative you have in your head about what a terrible person he is. Here's a starting point - someone breaking up with you doesn't make them a bad person. You even say yourself that you weren't in a good place for a relationship at the time and that he did right in dumping you. Focus on that, instead of winding yourself up about it.
Were you like you are now, then? You've been broken up for over seventeen times as long as you were together. You're blowing this way out of proportion. You need to talk to your therapist some more about this and also ask them if they have any ideas as to how you can get over this.
I think you should grieve over this. Follow the grief process. It sounds like you're stuck in Anger right now so what I would do is do things like write long angry letters to this guy, and then burn them. Or moan at your friends or therapist about how terrible he was. Then, most importantly, do something that you'll find healing and soothing. Bit more info. Let the anger out, then let it go by making yourself feel good.
Another thing you could try is counting your blessings. How is your life good, right now? What things would you be missing out on if you were still in a relationship with this guy? Etc. Bring yourself back to Now and all of the good things that are right in front of you. Focus on them more and less on the past.
posted by Solomon at 10:45 AM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
He dumped you for someone else. He did not like you as much as you think he did. If he's told you otherwise he's lying.
You are obsessing over this to a level that's extreme. It's time to work through this in therapy, preferably CBT with someone who has the ability to do EMDR with you as it will help you sort through your dysfunctional emotions and allow you to finally move on.
Stop letting this guy have real estate in your mind and heart when he isn't paying for it and isn't interested in living there anymore.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
You are obsessing over this to a level that's extreme. It's time to work through this in therapy, preferably CBT with someone who has the ability to do EMDR with you as it will help you sort through your dysfunctional emotions and allow you to finally move on.
Stop letting this guy have real estate in your mind and heart when he isn't paying for it and isn't interested in living there anymore.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
Based on what you've written here, I don't understand why you think he treated you badly and why you're saying he lied to you. You were in a relationship for six weeks and he broke up with you and started seeing someone else. It sounds to me like he was fairly straightforward with you -- he ended it and then moved on.
You say he had already met the woman he dated after you, while the two of you were still together, and that he started to date her soon after breaking up with you. You imply that's dishonorable -- saying stuff about "witness reports" and "first hand evidence" and asking whether you should forgive him. But there's nothing dishonorable in what he did, and I don't see anything that needs to be forgiven. It may make you feel sad, but what he did is not wrong or evil, and I definitely don't see any malice in it. The two of you dated, it didn't work out, maybe in part or whole because he met somebody else, and he broke up with you. (The meeting-somebody-else part doesn't actually matter that much: if he was emotionally available for that, it just means he wasn't tremendously invested in his relationship with you. Your relationship wouldn't have survived long anyway.)
And regardless, like other people are saying here: it was a long time ago. It's reasonable to feel sad and jagged and angry after a relationship ends, even if the anger isn't really justified. But you shouldn't still be feeling this way. I agree with the people who are telling you you need to move on. If you don't want to ignore him, then just be courteous and a little detached when you run into him -- basically, what you've been doing. Nobody's asking you to do anything different, and you don't need to do anything different. You're handling that part fine. But you need to stop stewing over this, for your own emotional health.
posted by Susan PG at 11:41 AM on May 19, 2013 [12 favorites]
You say he had already met the woman he dated after you, while the two of you were still together, and that he started to date her soon after breaking up with you. You imply that's dishonorable -- saying stuff about "witness reports" and "first hand evidence" and asking whether you should forgive him. But there's nothing dishonorable in what he did, and I don't see anything that needs to be forgiven. It may make you feel sad, but what he did is not wrong or evil, and I definitely don't see any malice in it. The two of you dated, it didn't work out, maybe in part or whole because he met somebody else, and he broke up with you. (The meeting-somebody-else part doesn't actually matter that much: if he was emotionally available for that, it just means he wasn't tremendously invested in his relationship with you. Your relationship wouldn't have survived long anyway.)
And regardless, like other people are saying here: it was a long time ago. It's reasonable to feel sad and jagged and angry after a relationship ends, even if the anger isn't really justified. But you shouldn't still be feeling this way. I agree with the people who are telling you you need to move on. If you don't want to ignore him, then just be courteous and a little detached when you run into him -- basically, what you've been doing. Nobody's asking you to do anything different, and you don't need to do anything different. You're handling that part fine. But you need to stop stewing over this, for your own emotional health.
posted by Susan PG at 11:41 AM on May 19, 2013 [12 favorites]
Some people are just easily distracted. It's a sign of immaturity, for sure. But you keep talking about him being a liar, and I don't see any lies. He really liked you when you were in a super-intense relationship with seeing each other all the time, poetry, etc., but then he looked away for a moment and got caught up in other stuff. Saw something sparkly. And he decided to break up with you, hesitated for a bit, but then went through with it. And afterward, he pursued someone else instead.
There's definitely some crappy behavior, ignoring you, that kind of thing. But that just puts the guy as 'selfish', trying too hard to avoid anything that might make him uncomfortable.
posted by Lady Li at 11:46 AM on May 19, 2013
There's definitely some crappy behavior, ignoring you, that kind of thing. But that just puts the guy as 'selfish', trying too hard to avoid anything that might make him uncomfortable.
posted by Lady Li at 11:46 AM on May 19, 2013
You're mad at him for holding hands in public with someone 4-5 weeks after you broke up when you only dated 6 weeks? Someone he is still with, two years later?
He doesn't sound like a jerk to me. He sounds young and conflict-averse. It sounds like he was trying hard to do the right thing, and didn't know how to do so. It also sounds like you forced awkward conversations and confrontations (the whole "I need to say everything to you" bit) for reasons that had nothing to do with him. I mean, hell, there wasn't even anything to say!
Closure can only ever come from you. I don't know why you expect him to be chatty or whatever right now when it's clear you can't stand the guy. If I were him, I'd find distance and silence to feel safest, too. He likely feels he did nothing wrong. He didn't love you, so he broke up with you (a kindness, really!), and once a few weeks had passed, began dating someone else. Totally acceptable. Not lying at all. Also understandable that he wouldn't say hi to you when he's out with his mom who you didn't get along with.
Move on move on move on. From him, but more importantly, from your anger at him. Have you dated since? If not, I suspect it's time. He'll seem far less important once you find a new healthy relationship of your own.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:46 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
He doesn't sound like a jerk to me. He sounds young and conflict-averse. It sounds like he was trying hard to do the right thing, and didn't know how to do so. It also sounds like you forced awkward conversations and confrontations (the whole "I need to say everything to you" bit) for reasons that had nothing to do with him. I mean, hell, there wasn't even anything to say!
Closure can only ever come from you. I don't know why you expect him to be chatty or whatever right now when it's clear you can't stand the guy. If I were him, I'd find distance and silence to feel safest, too. He likely feels he did nothing wrong. He didn't love you, so he broke up with you (a kindness, really!), and once a few weeks had passed, began dating someone else. Totally acceptable. Not lying at all. Also understandable that he wouldn't say hi to you when he's out with his mom who you didn't get along with.
Move on move on move on. From him, but more importantly, from your anger at him. Have you dated since? If not, I suspect it's time. He'll seem far less important once you find a new healthy relationship of your own.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:46 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm sorry, am I missing the part where he ended up "literally" in your food? Because it's very unclear exactly how much and in what circumstances you have to engage with this person.
My advice would be, since both ignoring him and being coolly polite to him are so stressful to you, to make an active effort not to have him in your life. I'm not sure where this falls on the "vindictive or "forgiving" scale, and it doesn't really matter. Accept where you are, and how he makes you feel, regardless of whether or not it's justified. Right now, having him around is obviously causing you pain, so stop having him around. Maybe this means sacrificing a little bit of your pride to tell your friends 'I know I should be over this, but he was just so rude to me that I don't like looking at his face.' Have them warn you if he's going to be around, then duck out of social obligations where he might be in attendance. Some people might say you're overreacting, but your feelings are your feelings, and in my experience, wounds like this are best dealt with by totally removing the other person from your life for as long as it takes you to legitimately get over it, however long that might take.
Additionally, as an 'old' who has also recently been insulted by a nasty young person about her age, I feel you! It's enraging, and doubly so because making a fuss about it only makes it clear that they've hit a sore spot, which is humiliating in its own way. I found the best response was to embrace my role as the old, mature person dealing with the young rabble. Pretend you're the Countess of Grantham or something, and whenever his name comes up, look down your nose, act as though you're smelling something faintly unpleasant, and say, "I simply don't enjoy spending time with him; I find him very rude." It's actually a perverse sort of fun.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
My advice would be, since both ignoring him and being coolly polite to him are so stressful to you, to make an active effort not to have him in your life. I'm not sure where this falls on the "vindictive or "forgiving" scale, and it doesn't really matter. Accept where you are, and how he makes you feel, regardless of whether or not it's justified. Right now, having him around is obviously causing you pain, so stop having him around. Maybe this means sacrificing a little bit of your pride to tell your friends 'I know I should be over this, but he was just so rude to me that I don't like looking at his face.' Have them warn you if he's going to be around, then duck out of social obligations where he might be in attendance. Some people might say you're overreacting, but your feelings are your feelings, and in my experience, wounds like this are best dealt with by totally removing the other person from your life for as long as it takes you to legitimately get over it, however long that might take.
Additionally, as an 'old' who has also recently been insulted by a nasty young person about her age, I feel you! It's enraging, and doubly so because making a fuss about it only makes it clear that they've hit a sore spot, which is humiliating in its own way. I found the best response was to embrace my role as the old, mature person dealing with the young rabble. Pretend you're the Countess of Grantham or something, and whenever his name comes up, look down your nose, act as though you're smelling something faintly unpleasant, and say, "I simply don't enjoy spending time with him; I find him very rude." It's actually a perverse sort of fun.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 11:47 AM on May 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
And footnote: Some people are just sort of flaky and irresponsible. Sometimes you can be friends with them and sometimes you can't... nothing wrong with just being civil! But for your own sake you obviously understand it'll be easier to go through your day if you're not stewing and trying to come up with a consistent, rational narrative for someone whose internal feelings aren't consistent ('flaky', as I'm using it).
posted by Lady Li at 11:48 AM on May 19, 2013
posted by Lady Li at 11:48 AM on May 19, 2013
You know what. I'm with you. It must have sucked. It must have hurt like hell to be treated that way at a time when you kept being faced with career-related bad news. It must have felt unfair that, for reasons outside of your own control, you probably don't feel like you were your best self with him.
I don't really have advice other than the trite kind: if this guy had been the right guy for you, he would have been able to support you through your hardships. But the thing is, he wasn't. Not because he's a bad person, just because, well, he was young and likely not looking for anything too serious, from the sounds of it.
But you know what? Now you sound like you are more settled and in a better place in your life. What he thinks/thought of you doesn't matter. What matters is that you be generous with yourself and realize how strong you were to put up with so much hardship all on your own.
posted by Milau at 11:48 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't really have advice other than the trite kind: if this guy had been the right guy for you, he would have been able to support you through your hardships. But the thing is, he wasn't. Not because he's a bad person, just because, well, he was young and likely not looking for anything too serious, from the sounds of it.
But you know what? Now you sound like you are more settled and in a better place in your life. What he thinks/thought of you doesn't matter. What matters is that you be generous with yourself and realize how strong you were to put up with so much hardship all on your own.
posted by Milau at 11:48 AM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Over a thousand words about a six week relationship two years ago. Choose to move on with or without therapy as soon as possible.
There was a time in my life when I couldn't get past a two day 'relationship' that involved a lot of drama. Sometimes people get stuck. There's nothing necessarily unusual or unhealthy about it. And just getting over it isn't always a possibility. I didn't get over it until I had a serious relationship, years afterwards.
Time heals everything eventually. It might be that the answer here is that you're lonely and have self esteem problems and that working them out is the answer. Whatever it is, it's not about this guy. It can't be about this guy. What he did isn't worth the time you're spending thinking about it.
posted by empath at 12:25 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
There was a time in my life when I couldn't get past a two day 'relationship' that involved a lot of drama. Sometimes people get stuck. There's nothing necessarily unusual or unhealthy about it. And just getting over it isn't always a possibility. I didn't get over it until I had a serious relationship, years afterwards.
Time heals everything eventually. It might be that the answer here is that you're lonely and have self esteem problems and that working them out is the answer. Whatever it is, it's not about this guy. It can't be about this guy. What he did isn't worth the time you're spending thinking about it.
posted by empath at 12:25 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Instead of hoping for an apology, is it possible to simply forgive him for hurting you? He doesn't need to earn your forgiveness; it's yours to give freely. I doesn't sound as though he acted out of malice toward you. He hurt you but he wasn't trying to hurt you. Forgiveness doesn't require a path back to a relationship. You don't need a friendship to forgive.
Once you forgive him, his past behaviors have much less power.
posted by 26.2 at 1:22 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Once you forgive him, his past behaviors have much less power.
posted by 26.2 at 1:22 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
this guy did kind of jerk you around, especially the "i don't want to break up" text followed by the in person "yes, i want to break up". ouch.
this is how i understand forgiveness and reconciliation with reconciliation meaning resuming a relationship of some sort with the person. forgiveness kind of needs to be done because we're all human and mess up and inadvertently hurt each other. i doubt he did any of this maliciously and even if someone does something malicious hey it's still right to forgive them. while you may feel better after you forgive him i do think forgiveness is essentially for the other person. it is not holding their wrong against them any longer and giving up your anger. you do benefit by it but you are still left with the hurt & consequences of their actions to deal with.
reconciliation is a different matter. in order to take a person back into your life they need to acknowledge and take responsibility for their behavior. also--this is key--they need to make a good faith effort to change their ways so they do not do what they did to hurt you again. since he has not apologized or made an effort to show you he gets it and has changed you don't need to take him back into your life. it would be right to forgive him though. most of the time this all happens pretty simply like when someone tells a lie. they know it was wrong and that they hurt you and decide not to do it again because they value the relationship and you. it doesn't have to be a big deal or drama. there are cases where it would be supremely foolish to take a person back who doesn't realize what they've done and aren't making a real change in their behavior like someone who physically abuses another, etc.
also, i think you may be trying too hard to be nice to the guy when you are still hurt and mad. this may be prolonging the situation for you. just allow yourself to feel your hurt and anger and work it through. write him some angry letters that you never, ever send but shred or flush instead. it doesn't matter how in flux or confused your life was when you were dating him; it isn't an excuse for other people to mistreat you.
posted by wildflower at 2:06 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
this is how i understand forgiveness and reconciliation with reconciliation meaning resuming a relationship of some sort with the person. forgiveness kind of needs to be done because we're all human and mess up and inadvertently hurt each other. i doubt he did any of this maliciously and even if someone does something malicious hey it's still right to forgive them. while you may feel better after you forgive him i do think forgiveness is essentially for the other person. it is not holding their wrong against them any longer and giving up your anger. you do benefit by it but you are still left with the hurt & consequences of their actions to deal with.
reconciliation is a different matter. in order to take a person back into your life they need to acknowledge and take responsibility for their behavior. also--this is key--they need to make a good faith effort to change their ways so they do not do what they did to hurt you again. since he has not apologized or made an effort to show you he gets it and has changed you don't need to take him back into your life. it would be right to forgive him though. most of the time this all happens pretty simply like when someone tells a lie. they know it was wrong and that they hurt you and decide not to do it again because they value the relationship and you. it doesn't have to be a big deal or drama. there are cases where it would be supremely foolish to take a person back who doesn't realize what they've done and aren't making a real change in their behavior like someone who physically abuses another, etc.
also, i think you may be trying too hard to be nice to the guy when you are still hurt and mad. this may be prolonging the situation for you. just allow yourself to feel your hurt and anger and work it through. write him some angry letters that you never, ever send but shred or flush instead. it doesn't matter how in flux or confused your life was when you were dating him; it isn't an excuse for other people to mistreat you.
posted by wildflower at 2:06 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: This was so familiar to me that I could almost have written parts of it. I dated someone who ended things with me callously when I was in a really rough spot in my life. I'm not as nice as you... I was, and am still to some degree, consumed with thoughts of revenge.
I think the people who are denying the emotional impact this can have, they really don't understand. In many cultures, not in the USA, there is something called "honor" and when someone dishonors you, it can lead to blood vendettas that last for generations. I'm not saying that's good, but I'm saying there can be a big emotional impact and that is part of human nature. It doesn't make you weird. For me, I'm not a vengeful person, but the way it happened in this case had a big impact.
The way the person acted with me was supremely dishonorable. That person's actions were humiliating and denigrating to an extreme, even if they weren't criminal, even if the person simply "didn't love me." There was an extreme lack of empathy there.
There are parts of your story that really stand out to me as familiar. He fooled you into getting a face-to-face meeting so that he could break up in person, which was for his sake and not yours. You already said you didn't want that, and rather than accepting your wishes or compromising with e.g. a phone call, he pushed you into it anyway even when he knew he'd be delivering bad news. He said that breaking up wasn't what he wanted, then surprised you and said he did. He also justified hurting you and leading you into a relationship by saying, "He wanted to get to know you anyway." He didn't do that carefully, he went full steam ahead with all the bells and whistles. Until he didn't. He wasn't careful or thoughtful. He wasn't extra careful because of the age difference. He was callous. Just that statement about "wanting to get to know you," it demonstrates zero empathy or concern for the effects on you.
When someone is so callous as to treat you like you aren't a human being, like your feelings and reactions are not something to be concerned about, that your feelings almost don't exist to him (except w/r/t any impact on him), it can be extremely painful and insulting. Especially in the context of a romantic relationships. In relationships, you are putting yourself out there to trust a person. It's not necessarily a youth thing... some people have that sort of callousness for their whole lives. The person who dishonored me was 32. It's hard to get over.
So what's the answer? For me, I had to find a way to accept the fact that some people are bad, and figure out for myself what to do about that. I considered different forms of revenge (and/or justice). I at least gave it some thought. I learned about present day and historical people who hurt others via carelessness and callousness. Eventually you do have to move on, and find ways to put together a constructive life. But not without some anger and pondering that can take longer than expected. I'm not going to say whether I sought out any kind of revenge or not. But that was a necessary part of what I considered. I had to get angry.
In your shoes, I wouldn't be nice to him at all. I'd ignore him. Telling him he's a rat bastard wouldn't necessarily impact him at all, so it's likely not worthwhile. Though you can if you want. (I did that in my case, it didn't help me emotionally, though maybe in the longer term it did have some benefit.)
I don't think you're upset over nothing, based on what you described. It sounds tremendously insulting. Relationships are important... you don't have all that many of them in your life. And while it would be over the top to be this angry over a relationship ending because the feelings weren't there, that's not really what happened. You were led into something then dumped with callousness and cruelty. The manner in which these things happens matters. People who haven't spent intimate time with someone this callous don't really appreciate the effects it can have on you.
You do have to find a way to move on from it, and that entails doing constructive stuff for yourself, and believing that not everyone you date is going to be awful and not everyone is going to treat you badly. Try to find your way to that, and don't beat yourself up for being upset even a long time later.
posted by htid at 2:21 PM on May 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
I think the people who are denying the emotional impact this can have, they really don't understand. In many cultures, not in the USA, there is something called "honor" and when someone dishonors you, it can lead to blood vendettas that last for generations. I'm not saying that's good, but I'm saying there can be a big emotional impact and that is part of human nature. It doesn't make you weird. For me, I'm not a vengeful person, but the way it happened in this case had a big impact.
The way the person acted with me was supremely dishonorable. That person's actions were humiliating and denigrating to an extreme, even if they weren't criminal, even if the person simply "didn't love me." There was an extreme lack of empathy there.
There are parts of your story that really stand out to me as familiar. He fooled you into getting a face-to-face meeting so that he could break up in person, which was for his sake and not yours. You already said you didn't want that, and rather than accepting your wishes or compromising with e.g. a phone call, he pushed you into it anyway even when he knew he'd be delivering bad news. He said that breaking up wasn't what he wanted, then surprised you and said he did. He also justified hurting you and leading you into a relationship by saying, "He wanted to get to know you anyway." He didn't do that carefully, he went full steam ahead with all the bells and whistles. Until he didn't. He wasn't careful or thoughtful. He wasn't extra careful because of the age difference. He was callous. Just that statement about "wanting to get to know you," it demonstrates zero empathy or concern for the effects on you.
When someone is so callous as to treat you like you aren't a human being, like your feelings and reactions are not something to be concerned about, that your feelings almost don't exist to him (except w/r/t any impact on him), it can be extremely painful and insulting. Especially in the context of a romantic relationships. In relationships, you are putting yourself out there to trust a person. It's not necessarily a youth thing... some people have that sort of callousness for their whole lives. The person who dishonored me was 32. It's hard to get over.
So what's the answer? For me, I had to find a way to accept the fact that some people are bad, and figure out for myself what to do about that. I considered different forms of revenge (and/or justice). I at least gave it some thought. I learned about present day and historical people who hurt others via carelessness and callousness. Eventually you do have to move on, and find ways to put together a constructive life. But not without some anger and pondering that can take longer than expected. I'm not going to say whether I sought out any kind of revenge or not. But that was a necessary part of what I considered. I had to get angry.
In your shoes, I wouldn't be nice to him at all. I'd ignore him. Telling him he's a rat bastard wouldn't necessarily impact him at all, so it's likely not worthwhile. Though you can if you want. (I did that in my case, it didn't help me emotionally, though maybe in the longer term it did have some benefit.)
I don't think you're upset over nothing, based on what you described. It sounds tremendously insulting. Relationships are important... you don't have all that many of them in your life. And while it would be over the top to be this angry over a relationship ending because the feelings weren't there, that's not really what happened. You were led into something then dumped with callousness and cruelty. The manner in which these things happens matters. People who haven't spent intimate time with someone this callous don't really appreciate the effects it can have on you.
You do have to find a way to move on from it, and that entails doing constructive stuff for yourself, and believing that not everyone you date is going to be awful and not everyone is going to treat you badly. Try to find your way to that, and don't beat yourself up for being upset even a long time later.
posted by htid at 2:21 PM on May 19, 2013 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Re: forgiveness, in Judaism (not necessarily your religion but one that has something to say about forgiveness), what is required is a) an expression of remorse, and b) either an act of atonement from the perpetrator OR some bad life circumstance that has happened to him or her in the interim. If someone has hurt you and expressed no adequate remorse, and there has been no act of atonement, it's not necessary to forgive... though you have an option to. That is also in line with the circumstances where it ~feels~ hard to forgive someone.
There are other religions where forgiveness is given without any conditions, like Christianity. Many people think forgiveness is about doing what is best for yourself rather than being about the perpetrator. YMMV. Just something to think about. There is no one answer here.
posted by htid at 2:26 PM on May 19, 2013 [6 favorites]
There are other religions where forgiveness is given without any conditions, like Christianity. Many people think forgiveness is about doing what is best for yourself rather than being about the perpetrator. YMMV. Just something to think about. There is no one answer here.
posted by htid at 2:26 PM on May 19, 2013 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: It sounds like this may not be so much about him as it is you associate him with a really rough, terrible period in your life. To him it was a six-week relationship that didn't work out, to you the relationship is symbolic of all the feelings of anger, sadness, and pain you went through at that time.
For example, the intense feelings of betrayal. From your description it doesn't sound like he cheated on you or lied to you, unless you call it lying when someone is confused and immature. "Betrayal" is a pretty loaded word for someone who's crime was seeing someone sooner than you would've liked. It's upsetting as hell, nobody likes to feel they're easily replaced, but it's not betraying anything.
That's where I'm wondering whether some of this is projection. It sounds like you were going through a period where you felt betrayed both professionally (the vanished job opportunities) and friends (everyone leaving you behind for jobs and stuff). But you might have also felt it was inappropriate to feel betrayed about either of those things--shit happens in academia, and who can expect their friends to not follow job opportunities? However, you could totally justify to yourself feeling angry about this guy: he left you alone in a time of need, and what's more he ran to another woman. So the intensity of all those feelings you had about the different situations ended up centered on Waldo. And maybe now, during times when you're not feeling great about yourself or your life, it brings up all those old memories of that bad time and with them that anger at Waldo.
When your therapist says to forget about him, I don't think they just mean you should ignore him. I think they mean you should forget about the part you feel he played or is playing and focus on all the other things going on in your life that upset you and how you're handling those.
posted by Anonymous at 3:39 PM on May 19, 2013
For example, the intense feelings of betrayal. From your description it doesn't sound like he cheated on you or lied to you, unless you call it lying when someone is confused and immature. "Betrayal" is a pretty loaded word for someone who's crime was seeing someone sooner than you would've liked. It's upsetting as hell, nobody likes to feel they're easily replaced, but it's not betraying anything.
That's where I'm wondering whether some of this is projection. It sounds like you were going through a period where you felt betrayed both professionally (the vanished job opportunities) and friends (everyone leaving you behind for jobs and stuff). But you might have also felt it was inappropriate to feel betrayed about either of those things--shit happens in academia, and who can expect their friends to not follow job opportunities? However, you could totally justify to yourself feeling angry about this guy: he left you alone in a time of need, and what's more he ran to another woman. So the intensity of all those feelings you had about the different situations ended up centered on Waldo. And maybe now, during times when you're not feeling great about yourself or your life, it brings up all those old memories of that bad time and with them that anger at Waldo.
When your therapist says to forget about him, I don't think they just mean you should ignore him. I think they mean you should forget about the part you feel he played or is playing and focus on all the other things going on in your life that upset you and how you're handling those.
posted by Anonymous at 3:39 PM on May 19, 2013
I think viewing this as black and white is not helping you get over things. In your version of events, he either was totally in love with you forever or it was "nothing." Is it possible that he meant what he said in the poems when he said it, but that something happened the weekend you met his parents that brought to light some problems in your relationship, even if those issues were not your fault or just bad timing with your life? The way he handled the breakup was suboptimal with the hemming and hawing about whether he even wanted to break up, but he did try and give you a long chance to speak your mind. (I consider myself a pretty nice person and there is no way I would wait an hour for someone to collect their thoughts under those circumstances. I would probably wind up filling the time awkwardly or inappropriately myself if I did.)
Letting go of the player-liar-jerkface narrative and trying to see him as an imperfect person who cared for you and tried to do their best when they realized it would not work out, but did not do all that great, is one way to let go of some angry feelings that have you stuck.
posted by *s at 8:08 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Letting go of the player-liar-jerkface narrative and trying to see him as an imperfect person who cared for you and tried to do their best when they realized it would not work out, but did not do all that great, is one way to let go of some angry feelings that have you stuck.
posted by *s at 8:08 PM on May 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
My husband is nine years younger than me. I don't "feel" older than him. He's hot as shit, the nicest MAN anyone could know (everyone loves him, universally) and he loves me.
Your train of thought is super faulty.
YES I've had "deep" connections with people who lied and used me.
The problem here is that you are desirable and very very nice. Trusting people are attractive to users. You are attractive, he was a user, so then he used you.
The length of his current relationship bares no meaning in terms of your experience. Plus, you don't really know how he's treating her.
Memail me for that story. I think I have a clue based on observational experience (I'm old) and definitely personal experience.
You're stuck because this situation is not what you think it was. You are right about the first part that he's a liar - but you need to take that a few steps further.
The truth is that he is not capable of the same feelings you are, thus, what happened for you did not happen for him, even though events werre shared by both of you.
PS. You are NOT dumb for believing his lies!!
posted by jbenben at 9:28 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your train of thought is super faulty.
YES I've had "deep" connections with people who lied and used me.
The problem here is that you are desirable and very very nice. Trusting people are attractive to users. You are attractive, he was a user, so then he used you.
The length of his current relationship bares no meaning in terms of your experience. Plus, you don't really know how he's treating her.
Memail me for that story. I think I have a clue based on observational experience (I'm old) and definitely personal experience.
You're stuck because this situation is not what you think it was. You are right about the first part that he's a liar - but you need to take that a few steps further.
The truth is that he is not capable of the same feelings you are, thus, what happened for you did not happen for him, even though events werre shared by both of you.
PS. You are NOT dumb for believing his lies!!
posted by jbenben at 9:28 PM on May 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
The truth is that he is not capable of the same feelings you are, thus, what happened for you did not happen for him, even though events were shared by both of you.
This is a good perspective.
I have numerous opinions here, which I'll share even more of because I thought about this question more overnight.
When someone wronged me, I had to get to a point where I was oscillating between two emotions before I could finally heal and move on. Though I don't think healing ever gets to 100% complete, maybe just 99%. The oscillations just get shallower and shallower and less frequent. Those two emotions were anger and grief. Anger is a vengeful emotion where you fucking hate someone. Or sometimes you hate God/probability/society/whatever for creating the circumstances and series of events surrounding what happened. You'd feel anger if you were conned out of your money. You'd also feel anger, at not just the perpetrator but at God, if you were mauled by an animal.
Grief is a softer emotion, where it's more like "something bad happened" but there isn't quite the desire for revenge. It's when the blaming part burns out and you just have sadness. Grief is what you might feel if someone died that you had wanted to spend more time with, or if your dog ran away to a new owner and was happy in the new spot. Or, you might have wanted the amputation to not be necessary but it was. Or, you are living in the Congo in 2012 and you are raped, just like 500K other women. You have anger, but at the same time, also grief that you are living in a time and place in history when this happened. In grief, there is more sadness and less anger, though there is also a bit of resignation and acceptance, and "That happened, I didn't want it to." And sometimes thoughts of moving forward.
To expand on that a bit more, grief is what happens sometimes when get to a point of thinking, "There is actually no explanation for this." You give up on trying to make sense, and trying to find someone to blame, the exact right person/place/thing to blame and the exact reasons why, and pondering corrective actions, preventative actions, trying to fit it into your worldview. It's kind of like, "My brain has exploded from all of that, and I'm just going to call it a loss." Anger is active, powerful, and hard. Grief is resigned, powerless, and soft. You can move on from it. They are both intense emotions.
The crime you are seething over a few years later is maybe less impactful than the one I experienced, but I think there are parts of "moving on" that are probably similar. Anger and grief were part of it for me.
I reread your post, and some of what you write, e.g. "he was right in breaking up with me," and "in his defense"... those types of thoughts are not compatible with either intense vengeful anger, nor with grief. I don't want to go all psychological mumbo jumbo here, but I wonder if you are somewhat stuck because you haven't allowed yourself to fully feel the anger and grief, as strong and unpleasant as those emotions might be.
posted by htid at 9:11 AM on May 20, 2013
This is a good perspective.
I have numerous opinions here, which I'll share even more of because I thought about this question more overnight.
When someone wronged me, I had to get to a point where I was oscillating between two emotions before I could finally heal and move on. Though I don't think healing ever gets to 100% complete, maybe just 99%. The oscillations just get shallower and shallower and less frequent. Those two emotions were anger and grief. Anger is a vengeful emotion where you fucking hate someone. Or sometimes you hate God/probability/society/whatever for creating the circumstances and series of events surrounding what happened. You'd feel anger if you were conned out of your money. You'd also feel anger, at not just the perpetrator but at God, if you were mauled by an animal.
Grief is a softer emotion, where it's more like "something bad happened" but there isn't quite the desire for revenge. It's when the blaming part burns out and you just have sadness. Grief is what you might feel if someone died that you had wanted to spend more time with, or if your dog ran away to a new owner and was happy in the new spot. Or, you might have wanted the amputation to not be necessary but it was. Or, you are living in the Congo in 2012 and you are raped, just like 500K other women. You have anger, but at the same time, also grief that you are living in a time and place in history when this happened. In grief, there is more sadness and less anger, though there is also a bit of resignation and acceptance, and "That happened, I didn't want it to." And sometimes thoughts of moving forward.
To expand on that a bit more, grief is what happens sometimes when get to a point of thinking, "There is actually no explanation for this." You give up on trying to make sense, and trying to find someone to blame, the exact right person/place/thing to blame and the exact reasons why, and pondering corrective actions, preventative actions, trying to fit it into your worldview. It's kind of like, "My brain has exploded from all of that, and I'm just going to call it a loss." Anger is active, powerful, and hard. Grief is resigned, powerless, and soft. You can move on from it. They are both intense emotions.
The crime you are seething over a few years later is maybe less impactful than the one I experienced, but I think there are parts of "moving on" that are probably similar. Anger and grief were part of it for me.
I reread your post, and some of what you write, e.g. "he was right in breaking up with me," and "in his defense"... those types of thoughts are not compatible with either intense vengeful anger, nor with grief. I don't want to go all psychological mumbo jumbo here, but I wonder if you are somewhat stuck because you haven't allowed yourself to fully feel the anger and grief, as strong and unpleasant as those emotions might be.
posted by htid at 9:11 AM on May 20, 2013
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posted by empath at 9:48 AM on May 19, 2013 [8 favorites]