How can I move forward with having a second child when I don't want to?

March 13, 2013 6:54 AM

Mrs. Spaulding (37) wants a 2nd kid yesterday. I was ambivalent about having #1 and I really don't want a 2nd. I have serious depression and anxiety and being a parent has been emotionally, well, bruising. Wife has made it clear she could not forgive me if we didn't have a 2nd and she would leave the marriage. Hive of parents with 2+ kiddos: help me see past my resentment & anxiety to a place where this will all be ok.

This feels like the wrong set of reasons for me TO have a 2nd child.

Please any reluctant Dads (or moms or friends), help me see past the depression and anxiety to a way that this will all be ok. I need to know that this can get better.

I'm on meds but they only help so much. I know a LOT of our marital difficulties have stemmed from us being apart on this issue (my wife has been waiting for nearly 2 years and is about to kill me) and at least for her, the bad fog will lift once she's knocked up. For me its less clear. I've never had to do something so big that I didn't want to do and it worries me. And I've lived with this implicit threat of ending our marriage for 2 years and my depression got super bad during that time.

Sure we know we can do things different this time. We've been in couples' counseling for a year. We can possibly hire an au pair to cushion the baby blues & sleep insanity. We know a LOT going into #2 that we didn't before. We are better at getting to yoga, meditation, and seeing friends regularly, dealing with $ issues, etc.

What needs to happen for us to heal and move forward so we can have a good marriage with #2 and not end up with a roomate marriage. What do I need to let go of? What might help me feel better about this?

We are versed in Gottman, and some of the basics of Hendrix, etc....

thanks in advance.....

posted by spaldinggetyourfootofftheboat to human relations (58 answers total)

Don't bring an unwanted second child into the world. If this is a dealbreaker for your wife (which...really?), then it's time to start discussing divorce.
posted by xingcat at 6:56 AM on March 13 [72 favorites]

Your wife is giving you an unfair ultimatum. She is basically saying that she values getting what she wants more than your mental health.

Just say no. If she wants a divorce, then you'll get divorced.
posted by barnoley at 6:57 AM on March 13 [42 favorites]

I think having another child will be a terrible idea. If you don't like being a parent and don't want to have another child, it is incredibly irresponsible for you to do so.

If this is a deal breaker for your wife, then so be it, perhaps it's time for you to go your separate ways.

Bringing children into the world and rearing them should not be done at gun-point. If you don't want to, then no amount of discussion, or rationalizing is going to make you okay with doing so.

So much of your depression is wrapped up in being in a situation you don't want to be in.

Get into counseling so that you can execute your break up as amicably as possible.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:58 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]

Nthing that you need to start discussing divorce. You have the same right to say no that she does.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:01 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]

The issue here is not another kid or not another kid, it's how you make life-changing decisions (this one happens to affect at least two other lives as well, your current and your possible future kid) in your marriage. What you've described is not a good way, and does not bode well for future happiness for anyone involved.
posted by OmieWise at 7:03 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]

Having a child shouldn't be treated like a hostage situation. Call her bluff. If she needs a second child more than she needs you, it really underlines and highlights just exactly why you shouldn't have another child with her and why this relationship is over.
posted by inturnaround at 7:07 AM on March 13 [52 favorites]

Time to get a good divorce lawyer on your side. If she's willing to try to guilt-trip and manipulate you against your own self-knowledge, there is no outcome for you that ends with you happy in five to ten years that does not start with finding a new life. I say you'll need a good lawyer because I can't imagine the divorce will be anywhere near tidy.

It's okay to not want [any more] children.

It's absolutely not okay to have them anyway.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:09 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]

I emphatically echo what inturnaround says.

This is not how decisions are supposed to be made in a marriage.
posted by Salamander at 7:11 AM on March 13

I agree with everyone here that you should not give in on this, and that you are being held hostage. Your wife is being completely unfair and unreasonable.

That said, I would like to answer your very specific question: How can I move forward with having a second child when I don't want to?

To which I will offer the comfort that a second child can make parenthood easier, because it is another small person in the house with which the first small person can play, talk, build things, throw things around, etc.

Again, I wouldn't do it if I were in your shoes. But to answer your question, a second child, in my personal experience, can make things better in the home.
posted by jbickers at 7:11 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]

I don't have kids but I totally agree with everyone above. DO NOT have a second child. You seem very clear about your desires in this matter. Your resentment may lead to divorce even with the second child, and then she's a single mother of two and you have to worry about child support for two. I'm sorry you're in this position. Yuck. : /
posted by Glinn at 7:12 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

Adding a child to your family isn't like adopting a new pet; you can't send that second kid off to the pound if they don't fit the dynamic. And while I love both of mine, and wouldn't trade them for anything, HOLY COW did the parenting work shoot up with two compared to one! Man-to-man parenting is not for the faint of heart, at least with my little spawn. It should NEVER EVER EVER be done if both parents aren't COMPLETELY in agreement.

If you're not enjoying being a parent enough that you want to deliberately stub your toe on that rocker again, don't do it. And don't let your wife hold your marriage and family hostage; this is nothing that should be done unilaterally.

You guys need to either get into counseling pronto to determine why she thinks her desires for a second child are more important than the mental health and wellbeing of her partner, or you need to get into counseling to figure out where you want to go with this relationship. Much as I love my husband, a demand like this would be a total dealbreaker for me. It's a partnership, not a dictatorship.
posted by tigerjade at 7:12 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]

Your wife has serious issues, and it's not about the number of kids you raise together. I assume you already know this, though.

As others have said, absolutely do not bring another kid into this world.

Others have said the above better than me, but for your own validation: Does she know what it is REALLY like to have two children? I know everyone has it differently, but most people I know with multiple kids, including myself, all feel: one kid = easy; two kids = almost hell. Having two kids isn't double having one kid, rather having two kids is 10x more work than one kid.
posted by TinWhistle at 7:12 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]

We have 1+ children and are glad to have them. But 12+ years of parenthood has only convinced me more that you should only have them if you're really sure, because holy cow they're a lot of work. Not to support you in your old age, not for companionship as adults, not to please parents, in-laws, or even a spouse. And I'd suspect that child number 2 will NOT magically cure your wife, either.

To directly answer your question, if she were already pregnant I'd say I agree that 2 are not twice the work or expense of 1, and that they do help relieve the parents of the burden of always being a playmate.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:21 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

Just coming in to defend your wife in this. Her biological clock is ticking - if you have been essentially stalling her for two years, it's no wonder she's furious at you.

It is not unreasonable for it to be a dealbreaker for her as well - if you refuse to have more children, I would say she's entitled to go elsewhere and find more.

However, a really important question: how old is your first child? How do you feel about them?
posted by corb at 7:21 AM on March 13 [41 favorites]

You say you've been in couples counseling for a year. Have you had this conversation with the counselor? Because it seems clear that you're not having it productively just the two of you.

The bottom line is that right now, you two need, or feel like you need (which is, emotionally, the same thing) things that are completely incompatible. You need to work on your mental health, to be free of stress, and to not have a second child you don't really want. Your wife needs a baby. The tie-breaker in my mind is what your hypothetical future kid needs: for its parents to love it and want it and have the emotional resources to take care of it. Given your situation, I think it would be deeply unfair to your hypothetical child to bring it into the world.

You need to talk about this with your therapist, without ruling out the possibility that you may need to end your marriage so that you can both get your other needs fulfilled.

Also: use a condom. Not that I'm saying your wife is planning to purposefully sabotage your birth control. I don't know your wife, so I don't know whether she'd do that. But I do know that someone who desperately wants a baby enough to leave a marriage over it is less likely to be vigilant about taking pills at the same time every day or about keeping up with other female-led birth control methods than someone who very much doesn't want a child would be. Use condoms until you've gotten this issue resolved.
posted by decathecting at 7:21 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]

Before we pile on the wife for the ultimatum, have you talked about WHY she needs to have a second child? and how you will handle raising two children when one partner is depressed?

That seems like an important issue to bring up in couples counseling (which props on you for doing).

Additionally, did you know getting into this relationship that two kids were a must? If she has such strong feelings about it, it must have come up earlier. Did you commit to two kids and are now backing down? (in which case it may be valid to discuss her feelings of betrayal etc.)

For what it's worth, I personally don't think you should have a second child, but it may be time for your wife to consider her dealbreakers, and see if she needs to prioritize having two children vs supporting a depressed life partner.
posted by larthegreat at 7:22 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]

To offer a slightly different voice: for two years you've been dangling the "I don't really wanna but maybe later" carrot infront of her?I'd be hopping mad and issuing ultimatums myself!
Make up your mind. Tell her "no". Stop wasting both your times. If she really has to habe that second child and drags an unwilling you with her, she'll end up a single mom anyway, regardless of whether you remain married.
posted by Omnomnom at 7:22 AM on March 13 [24 favorites]

Please do not do this to yourself. You're already battling some difficult issues in your marriage and adding the stress of an unwanted child could tip everything over sideways and you'll end up divorced anyway, only with 2 children to financially and emotionally support (and you don't seem to have any emotional support for yourself right now, I can't imagine how things would be in your marriage with another child).

This is more of a control and marriage issue rather than anything else.

I have 4 kids and frankly, more than 1 is really REALLY hard on a good day. A rough day is pretty hellish (and my kids are very spread out and all over the age of 10).
posted by hollygoheavy at 7:29 AM on March 13

Hell yes, call her bluff. She must have a well-paying job that she's willing to bring up the one child on her own and plan to have a second (with whoever.) She gets pregnant again (with Mr. X)...when that partnership ends, how is she going to finance two children? She has not thought this through.
Stand firm and don't give in. You might research having a vasectomy, to be on the safe side.
posted by BostonTerrier at 7:29 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

You need to do what you haven't been able to do for two years. Tell her no.

I am totally on your side, but it's definitely a two-way street here. Seems like you didn't want to be straightforward because you didn't want to drive her off. I get that, but practice clear communication, and let the chips fall where they may.
posted by supercres at 7:34 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]

Please don't say anything about her "bluff" of divorce. This situation is heated enough as it is, but you can keep it from unnecessarily escalating by choosing how you address your wife's wishes and demands.

How old is your first child? How is child care handled now? How would that change with a second new child? How much time will she take off of work after the next child is born? Will you take time off, too, and if so, how much?

How was your relationship before the previous baby discussion added stress? How does she treat your depression? Does she recognize that you are having trouble coping? How does she help you cope? How is her emotional stability, before and after the new baby?

There is more at play than having a second child. It is about how you both deal with relationship stress and personal stress, how you support each-other.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:36 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]

And if you look into having a vasectomy, you should tell your wife. It will most likely be an unpleasant conversation, but if you try to hide it and she finds out from someone other than you, or you tell her once your mind is made up, the following discussion will be much worse.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:38 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

@Omnomnom "To offer a slightly different voice: for two years you've been dangling the "I don't really wanna but maybe later" carrot in front of her? I'd be hopping mad and issuing ultimatums myself!"

This is what I was thinking. In this context, you have been very clear about this with us. Have you been this clear with your wife? With your couples counselor? Because if you haven't been, that's not right. I don't think that just because you possibly haven't been clear means she should get to have kid #2 but if you haven't been super duper clear, I would completely understand why she'd be really upset.

I ask in part because my husband does this thing where I will ask him, for example, do you want to go to Paris? "Yes." "Do you want to go to Paris for a long weekend in two months? On these dates?" "Yes." "I found a flight and hotel for a trip to Paris on those dates, is this price reasonable in your opinion?" "Yes." "Okay, I'm going to book it, what credit card should I use?" "I don't want to go to Paris." That is really annoying and while I think visiting Paris might be a life-changing experience, it is nowhere near as life-changing as becoming parents again.

Women run out of time in which they can have kids. Men don't, at least not the same way that women do. So if you've been stalling only to now be like, yeah, definitely don't want to do that, that is Not Cool.

How are things with the current kid? This question makes it sound like if anything, you're ambivalent about their existence. Is that actually the case? Have you talked to your counselor about how you're not that wild about your kid? I'm not a guy and I'm definitely not a father but that sounds odd to me and maybe that's the depression talking.

If you can't trust your wife when it comes to birth control, I think this relationship might be over. But only you can say that.

I'd ask the wife to really consider whether she would leave the marriage if you do not want to have another kid. Like, really think about it, over a week, perhaps. And you can really think about whether having another kid would be the huge horrible thing that you think it would be. Think about whether you would really want to spend the rest of your life with someone who is miserable about not having another kid. Think about how having another kid would change your life. Have you ever wanted more than one kid? If so, when did you change your mind? What changed?

I think one of you needs to say, "Look, I've got to be 100% honest, I absolutely [do/do not want to have another kid] and if that's a deal-breaker for our relationship, we should consider going down that road."
posted by kat518 at 7:40 AM on March 13 [22 favorites]

As someone who distinctly felt her biological "clock" "ticking" and had desperately wanted children from a very early age yet had to wait years and years (partially because of biological reasons, partially for relationships), I disagree wholeheartedly that she has a the "right" to be furious with you and pressure you into this.

Sure, investigate why she wants that second child so badly that she would bring down morale in the entire marriage and for the entire existing family. Definitely find out why this is more important to her than the health and happiness of her husband.

But, dang, that's a hard line to push on someone, especially for so long, on something so big and life changing!

I'm on a huge email list of moms with a variety of home situations and family shapes. Those with two are completely honest about how much more work it is, how much of a challenge it is financially, how difficult to keep a balance it can be. True, most of them also say having that other person in their lives is totally worth it and has been a boon in other ways, and nearly all have figured out how to balance the hard stuff. But I don't think any of them forced their partners into that dynamic or ignored severe clinical illness in order to bring about their vision of the "perfect" family.

If your wife (or other people) can't understand that dire fear of the end of your relationship has kept you from coming down with firmness on this issue, that's a mark against their compassion, not a free ticket to ramp up the pressure. It's disturbing to me that a year of couple's therapy didn't seem to ever give you some breathing room, which seems like a necessary step in allowing you to really work out your feelings, make an informed choice, and declare your decision in a lower stress environment than a constant pressure cooker.

I feel for you. I can't imagine being pressured like that. Having a child together should be like sex, itself - if someone changes their mind, "no" should be an acceptable answer that doesn't lead to abuse.

Could you get a therapist just for yourself? Someone to help you put together your thoughts and figure out a support plan for whatever your decision ends up being? Because that sounds like it would really help you.

If you can find yourself comfortable in creating the family shape she feels she wants so badly with the option of ending the marriage if it really is too much for you, that might be an option, as sad as that could be if you did still feel your life was threatened by the pressure of increased parental responsibility.

If you can't, well, I think the only thing you can do, the only humane step that can be taken, is to be honest with her and tell her that you would like to work on being happy with the family that exists already, instead, but can't live with being forced to bring another life into the world when your own is so tenuously anchored.

I so hope for all your sakes that she sees that this Godzilla approach to family building is destructive to all concerned, regardless how dearly held her wishes for more children have been.

Peace and strength to you, and I wish your family well.
posted by batmonkey at 7:41 AM on March 13 [10 favorites]

Regarding a second child: you can never know how any child will be. One child may be a relatively well behaved child, and the next might be a terror. Maybe kiddo #1 will have issues with not being the only kid, adding that level of stress to your already strained family.

As I'm sure you already realize, having kids don't magically fix relationships, they strain them, and from that strain you can grow together and grow stronger, or split apart.

In short: I don't think anyone can give you glowing recommendations of having a second child.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

I will answer the actual question. I was reluctant to have a first, a second and then a third. I had good reason to be reluctant. Like any decision there are risks and rewards. Ultimately, instead of focusing on only the risks and the negatives, I decided to look at both sides of the issue and weigh the two choices. In hindsight, I think we made the right choice. I love my three children, I think we have been terrific parents and they have been great kids. I can tell you that with the 2nd, our lives did not change much. It was marginally more complicated, but you seem to know the issues going in. The real change to our lives was when we went to the zone defense and had the third. Also in hindsight, I know my life would have been much different without children, probably easier, but definitely less fulfilling.

Having said that, I would recommend having the child only if you are prepared to be fully committed. I can also tell you that having the 2nd child will not necessarily prevent getting divorced. Don't make divorce the reason to have or not have the child. I am now divorced. It was not something we contemplated for the first 17 years of marriage. Regardless, my ex was and is a great mom to the kids. My point is you can be a good father (or mother) whether you are married or divorced. It is a choice and a commitment outside of the decision to have children.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:43 AM on March 13 [6 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen, my reading of what JohnnyGunn says is that *his* life would have been less fulfilling without children - he says nothing about others' lives, and rightly so.

OP, I agree with those who say you need to be clear with your wife about where you stand. In your question you don't state that you have told her that you don't want a second child. If you haven't, you really need to do so - it won't be easy, but there's no alternative. If you haven't told her, I don't blame her for being angry.

Best of luck to you in this difficult situation. The ultimate fact is that you don't have to have another child if you don't want one, but there is more to the situation than that.
posted by altolinguistic at 8:00 AM on March 13

I wanted to disagree with this from kat518: How are things with the current kid? This question makes it sound like if anything, you're ambivalent about their existence. Is that actually the case? Have you talked to your counselor about how you're not that wild about your kid? I'm not a guy and I'm definitely not a father but that sounds odd to me and maybe that's the depression talking.

I think that you can love your kid like the dickens and still find parenthood completely depleting -- it's nonstop, you never catch up with your life or your head, it's a project that takes full-time research and thought on entirely new issues every few months. Most parents of young children, especially, are ambivalent about parenting at least occasionally if not all the time, whether or not they are depressed by other measures. (And research shows that measurable happiness declines, at least in the short term, with addition of children.) So lighten up a bit on the original poster.

As to the original question, all the advice to view the marriage as already in trouble seems most on point. I will add, however, that most people that I know with two young kids find that it's not double the work but more like (work)-squared. Yes, they play together sometimes, but you get all the types of conflict, all the times when their needs and developmental stages are out of synch, all the extra factors that to into every decision. So it's completely nontrivial to consider a second, even if you enjoyed the first, let alone if you are finding that parenthood a challenge to your personal well-being. (My spouse and I agree that a second could well kill us, and we're plenty fond of the one we have!)

You have to balance your needs, those of your current child, and those of your wife. But to do the last, she has to be equally concerned with the first two, and it's not clear that she is. I'm sorry that you have to deal with that, and wish you the best in navigating your way to some resolution.
posted by acm at 8:04 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]

I agree it is unfair that you have apparently made up your mind about an important joint decision two years ago but did not share that info with her and were instead deferring telling her (putting your needs above hers for years, possibly limiting her ability to have a second child).

I wonder too if the child question from her is more "how are you dealing with this major health issue that is affecting both of us negatively"? You mention meds (great! do they need tweaking though?), couples therapy (fantastic!), building supports (good going!), yoga (ahh, nice!) and meditation (perfect!) but what else can you do to limit the impact of the depression on both your lives? Depression causes distorted thinking and you should be aware of that and working actively with an individual therapist to correct the thinking problem in your head.

Depression and anxiety are serious illnesses; but a lot of people lead full lives (including multiple children) by working hard against the distorted thinking and deciding how to live their lives, prioritising their choices over the depression/anxiety. How is the balance right now in your marriage? Is it a partnership or do you allow your depression and anxiety to affect your relationship in ways outside of this one discussion? How are you righting that imbalance if it exists?

If you would rather live with the depression/anxiety than your wife and a second child then you should be honest and let her know so she can build a life for herself that does not revolve exclusively around your needs.
posted by saucysault at 8:05 AM on March 13 [7 favorites]

I need to ask you this: Does your first child bring you joy?

The answer to THAT will tell you a lot.

One other thing-I am an only child of an only child, never wanted children till all of a sudden, I did. I had two really quickly and due to circumstances and feeling overwhelmed really wanted to stop. But I got pregnant with #3 pretty quickly.

I adjusted.

However, I do need to tell you that going from one to two children is almost as big a change as going from none to one. In your present frame, I don't think it's the best idea.

If your wife would leave you over this, then my opinion of her is not too high. She should have way more respect for you than that. She has the right to be disappointed, even heartbroken, but you and the child already in your family are way more important than a potential second baby.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:08 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

I've heard the phrase "having one child is like having no children" from people with multiple kids, and I've noticed with friends and neighbours who recently have had their second child - they stop smiling. Apparently it's far more exhausting and time consuming dealing with a small child AND a new born baby, and these are people who were very happy to have another child.

This isn't a decision you can back out from once it's been done, and I just don't see creating another human life as the sort of thing a person gambles their happiness/marriage on. If you're not willing to jump in with both feet, don't do it.
posted by Dynex at 8:08 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]

PS-I am thinking your depression is way more situational than either you or a lot of people on this thread are giving you credit. Even a biological depression is way more hard to successfully treat if your life is going sideways. Hint.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 8:09 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]

Does she do the majority of the hands on raising of the child?

I think you two need to go to therapist for counseling immediately. And regardless of having another kid, you need to work out your anxiety issues and unhappiness at being a dad. That stuff is going to wreak havoc on the already existing child. They'll sense that you don't enjoy being a dad or think you didn't want them and that hurts. I know a guy who is really messed up and has difficulty bonding with people because, even though his father loves him, he knew his dad didn't enjoy being a dad and even 40 years later, he can't get over his anger and resentment and unhappiness over the way his father's emotional state contributed to their family environment. And he was an only child.
posted by discopolo at 8:22 AM on March 13

I was an only child and it was a horrendous and lonely experience for me. My husband knows that I am not willing to have an only child; if biology gets in the way, I'm going to want to adopt. He also know that this is a deal breaker for me: I want kids, with emphasis on the plural.

If you have been stringing her along, at 37 (37!) she needs to know that. Her window to have more biological children is closing rapidly. But I don't think you're stringing her along, I think you are very honestly conflicted about the change a second baby will bring. You say you're in couple's counseling and you are on meds. Do you have your own therapist? Have you talked to your psychiatrist about adjusting your meds, since you don't seem to be finding them too helpful?

We can give you anecdotes about great family dynamics with multiple kids until the cows come home, but you need to figure out what the root of your resistance is, and the best way to do that is individual therapy.

Also, how are things with your child? How do you feel about them and around them?
posted by lydhre at 8:26 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]

I agree it is unfair that you have apparently made up your mind about an important joint decision two years ago but did not share that info with her and were instead deferring telling her (putting your needs above hers for years, possibly limiting her ability to have a second child).

I agree. You didn't communicate with her and she could have been getting out of her marriage and into a situation that could have fulfilled her desire for more children. It was wrong of you to not communicate this sooner.

And I think you guys should split in this situation. She's unhappy and frustrated, and she's most likely at the end of her rope and not bluffing. You haven't thought of her needs at all, and you sound like you haven't even tried to get healthier mentally for the sake of your family and the benefit of your child.
posted by discopolo at 8:29 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

My situation was different than yours. I found myself very unexpectedly pregnant, and I didn't have a choice about making a decision. I had to decide definitively to have a child or not because, well, when you're already pregnant, you can't decide to get pregnant.

I was really distressed. I didn't know how I felt for awhile. I just went through the motions for a few weeks and decided to have the baby. She's almost 18 months now, and nothing with her has been like with my older child. At all.

And going to two children was so much easier than going from no children to one child. So much easier. Even handling my son has been, mostly, easier. There are days when clearly one child would be eaiser than both children. There are days when no children would be better than one child. But overall, I haven't found it to be more work in general because while there are days when we have to constantly be on them, there are also days when they play together. By themselves. Without us! So on those days it's better than one child because I don't have to be the playmate.

Also oddly enough, two children helped my husband and I balance our lives better. Our marriage is probably stronger now than it was before we had children, despite a really rough two years after my first child and the usual newborn rough patch after my second.

I don't know, though, if I were in your position --- if I hadn't already been pregnant and if my husband wanted more children if I'd had agreed to it. I kinda think I wouldn't have. I also kinda think I'd have been stuck where I was without my second child --- I was in a pretty bad cycle of revisiting all the wrong things that had been with my son. I was stuck in a place of not ever wanting to have more children ever again because of what I had gone through while simultaneously feeling a huge loss of regret. No matter which way I turned, I was losing. And that was a terrible place to be.

So I don't know what I would have done exactly in your position. But I did so many things differently the second time around. I knew so much more. I felt so much better. My husband felt so much better. And our son got that much older that for us, having a second child has been very possibly the best thing to have happened to us as a family.

But whatever your feelings on this, whatever you decide, you need to be straight with your wife about it. You need to make a decision and commit to either a yes or a no, and you need to stalwartly convey that to her so she can make any decisions she needs to make. Your marriage may not survive a second child. It may not survive without a second child. But the two of you need to have that conversation.
posted by zizzle at 8:30 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]

Let me attempt to add some clarification. This is getting some very, very strong responses along the lines of calling out whether my wife or I are being unfair with each other, etc. I appreciate the thoughts but I was not hoping to pile on her and build a case for exiting. My question is about how can I take steps to see that my wife has simply wanted 2 kids her whole life and that's her truth. And that because I tend to be a bit more emotionally topsy turvy, being a parent is harder for me than your average walrus.

My kid is 3.5 years old, and is amazing, loving, and we have great times when it is one on one versus its a little chaotic when its the three of us -- he prefers one parent at a time. I'd say I felt rejected by kiddo for about a year any time his mom was around -- he just wanted her.

We share child care very well - I work from home, she works 3 days a week out, we support each other very, very well and we have regular check ins about rebalancing, etc.

My wife has known that I had not come around on kiddo 2 for the last years. She however just thinks that the depression is my depression and has a hard time linking it to me worrying that my marriage might end. We are both doing emdr individual therapy to get over family trauma stuff. We still get mighty flooded when we have conflict but usually its ok after 36 hours.

Going into marriage and during our marriage, I knew she wanted 2 and she knew I wanted one but had hoped I would come around to wanting 2. We agreed in Couple's therapy to table the discussion for most of 2011/2012 and work on our marriage in individual therapy (her request which I backed) in hopes that this would depressurize and build our marriage and that I could trust that a 2nd wouldn't wreck us like #1 played havoc with our marriage (we both came from messed up families and she also had PP Depression and insomnia for 2 years). At end of 2012 I got super depressed because I knew I had to either start trying with her or tell her no. So we restarted couple's work. And it has been hard because she knows I'm freaking out and its hard for her not to run for the door.
posted by spaldinggetyourfootofftheboat at 8:36 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]

If you had cancer or kidney disease or any other chronic, life-threatening disease, nobody would consider for a single second that her biological clock trumps your right to not create a child you don't want. You have a chronic illness and your health has to come first.

As a mother with two children who have suffered tremendous, irrevocable damage because their father decided (after the fact) that he didn't want children, I find it horrifying that your wife would be insisting on bringing a child into such a hostile, unloving environment.
posted by headnsouth at 8:38 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]

@headnsouth & Our family life is neither hostile nor unloving.

I think the way I presented the question gave a misleading impression about some key barometers (and some folks have asked about):
1. how the rest of our marriage is (it took a major 2 year hit but its getting a lot better)
2. how my relationship with my kid is (it is loving, consistent AND could improve) -- the depression and anxiety just makes it less enjoyable and more stressful. Both my wife and I spend the entire day on Tuesdays, thursdays, saturdays and sundays with our kid both individually and as the three of us.
3. Are either of us in individual therapy? Yes, both.

My wife has reassured me that she will always be at my side with the depression stuff & she just wants to know how we can work with it better. I think At. Alia of the Bunnies is probably right -- a lot more of the depression has come from this than I might think.
posted by spaldinggetyourfootofftheboat at 8:57 AM on March 13

Going into marriage and during our marriage, I knew she wanted 2 and she knew I wanted one but had hoped I would come around to wanting 2.

This was a major mistake. If it was a dealbreaker, she should have let you know upfront. She should never have married you if your not coming around was grounds for divorce. That she is now holding your marriage hostage over this decision is, in my opinion, pretty despicable, given that you have a kid.

It sounds to me like you're going to get divorced either way. If you're blackmailed into having a second kid, and it makes you miserable, your marriage will eventually fall apart under the weight of resentment and the damage to your mental health. If you don't have a second kid, your wife will divorce you, because having a second kid, under whatever circumstances, is for some reason more important than her marriage, and the happiness of her husband and current child.

She's put you and your child in a horrible, shitty situation. This isn't heading anywhere good. It's not your fault. But don't bring a second child into what sounds like an unhappy, doomed marriage.
posted by Dasein at 8:59 AM on March 13 [8 favorites]

Do not bring an unwanted child into the world. The child will figure it out VERY quickly and it will not be pleasant for them. Ask me how I know. if you're not ready for a child, for any reason, don't have one.

It sounds like you told your wife before you got married that you only wanted one child. Her biological clock might well be ticking, but it doesn't seem like you sprung this on her yesterday. If your wife were asking this question, I would tell her to go ahead and do what she needed to do to make herself happy. If that meant getting divorced and having another child with someone else, well, I'd suggest she go for it. Life is too short to waste time not being happy. It sounds like she feels REALLY strongly about this.

It sounds like your choices are to have another child, or get divorced. If you're going to go with the former option, you need to make 100% sure that you're 100% ready for that child. I'd suggest that that means finding a form of therapy or medication or both that makes your depression not an issue for a start, as it seems like that's a major thing that's holding you back.

I'd pick what was under shell number two, though. You're no longer being made depressed by the situation, your wife can have a child with someone who actually wants one and the child gets to have 2 parents who actually want it. Staying in a situation that is making you ill benefits nobody, least of all you.
posted by Solomon at 9:04 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]

Thanks for your comment, spalding, it provides some good clarification.

Regarding the first 2 years of #1 kids life, how were you involved?

I ask because I knew a new dad who wasn't involved with much of daily chores of infant care, and then got upset that his child was more affectionate and close with the mother. When the kid was a few years old and more of a tiny person, he was able to relate more to his child, and they developed a bond, and I think the family relationship is more settled.

My wife and I share all the childcare tasks with our baby son. When he was still breastfeeding, I would be the one to put him into bed and give him his bottles, when I was home. I got up with my wife when our son woke up in the middle of the night and help out changing the middle-of-the-night diaper and get him back to bed.

Now, we do a lot of things as the three of us. We read bedtime stories together, we bathe our son together, we take turns feeding him, with the other parent helping how they can. It sounds like you're probably doing some of this now, too, which is great.

Given that you want your marriage to last, and that you both have bonded with your first child, a second kid might help balance that feeling of being left out for either parent. Of course, your second kid might take to following kid #1 around, so you might have both kids with you, or none. Or they could prefer the company of each-other, and rely on you and your wife less, who knows?

One more question: were you an only child, and was your wife one of two kids? I ask because I'm the oldest of three, though my youngest sibling is 10 years younger than I am, and was adopted when I was already in high school. My wife is one of four kids. I think that 2 kids is a pretty good number, while she first thought that at least 3 kids (though her mind has changed a bit, now that we have one of our own =)

We're thinking of having our second kid. We're a bit freaked out, but our first one is great, and he's getting old enough to be more of a little person. We think we know enough now that we can avoid some mistakes we made with the first kid. From your follow-up comments, it sounds like this could be your experience, too.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:05 AM on March 13

We are versed in Gottman ... My question is about how can I take steps to see that my wife has simply wanted 2 kids her whole life and that's her truth. And that because I tend to be a bit more emotionally topsy turvy, being a parent is harder for me than your average walrus.

OK, so it sounds like you remember Gottman says some conflicts are never going to be resolved, and the trick is to just learn to live with them, and the way to do that is by respecting each partner's dreams, even if you're not willing to make them become reality.

I'd imagine it's relatively easy for you to see your wife's desire for 2 children as a positive dream. (Or maybe I'm wrong about this, since you're asking for help. If so: what is difficult about it?)

What seems to be more difficult is for your wife to see your desires as a positive dream, rather than just stemming from some irrational fear you need to get over.

When you say: "We are better at getting to yoga, meditation, and seeing friends regularly, dealing with $ issues, etc.": that's GREAT. That's really important. But those are resources that can also be channeled back into improving the lives of the existing family members.

So I guess my question is: do you agree with your wife that your fear of a second child is irrational? Or there also a positive dream of yours (perhaps having to do with everyone in the family loving each other and being committed to and accepting each other in whatever present arrangement) that she needs to learn to understand and validate (regardless of whether y'all have a second child)?
posted by feral_goldfish at 9:07 AM on March 13 [5 favorites]

So it is basically you trying to come to terms with having a second child? Seems like you resent a kid taking up her time and not being into you - basic dad issues. Involve yourself in your child's life and chalk out a plan to better engage with the new baby. Try to be think of the positives, things you haven't even considered a possibility as of yet..the fun stuff. Also you have to decide to to come to a point when it is time to let go and wholly embrace the possibility,completely.
posted by pakora1 at 9:09 AM on March 13

Your main worry seems to be that your marriage will end based on the choice you make.

1. You tell her you are definitely not having child #2. She follows though on what she has said for years and leaves. Your marriage ends and you change to a co-parent role where it sounds like the positives in your relationship will be washed away in conflict and resentment from both sides.

2. You tell her you are definitely willing to go for child #2. A few things could happen; she may change her mind; she may be unable to get pregnant; the child arrives and is a delight; your wife loves you more for helping create such a marvel and adds to your marriage; the child is a colicky mess and your marriage implodes.

So if your goal is to avoid ending your marriage then you must attempt to have child together since the other way guarantees it will end. Since you know PPD and insomina was a stressor last time, you build in those supports you were talking about (the au pair etc). Controlling those things (hiring the maid, the au pair, booking off parental leave and holidays, arranging the home delivery of food etc) may make you feel more the captain of your ship.

Everyone feels stressed about making major decisions, almost everyone freaks out at the idea of having a baby because the outcome is so uncontrollable. But life in general is uncontrollable (health issues, car accidents, environmental disasters) and you need to build your resiliency in sitting with those anxious thoughts and accepting that your distorted thinking (the new baby is going to be a nightmare, my first child rejects me because he loves his mummy more, I am a horrible dad!) is distorted.

By my calculations, you have been dealing with this issue for five years. Anyone would find going back and forth on a black and white choice to for five years stressful. I think that you are also both escalating the tension with each other - she is probably not willing to be "all-in" and supportive of you (and your depression and anxiety) when you both have one foot out the door because you chose not to have the second child you have been discussing for years. If she knows you are willing to have that child - to put her needs above your own (which should happen in all healthy relationships) you may find she gives you a little more slack and support as she feels secure in the relationship. You may find that having made the choice allows you to feel more secure as well - as long as you go in 100%.

You have to sit down and make a choice 100% and live with the consequences.
posted by saucysault at 9:09 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]

@headnsouth & Our family life is neither hostile nor unloving.

You are being presssured into having a child you don't want. It may not feel hostile or unloving to you, but you're considering creating a child you don't want, just to get your wife to not divorce you. That is not a loving environment for the child.
posted by headnsouth at 9:10 AM on March 13 [4 favorites]

I'm not a parent and I can't imagine what it would be like to have my child prefer one parent over me. I get annoyed when animals take to my husband more than me so that would probably annihilate my self esteem.

I wanted to say that in some ways, the expression "put your own oxygen mask on first" applies here. Depression really sucks, especially going through it yourself (hi!) but also watching someone you love deal with it. But I think you need to get to a place where you can be okay married or not, two kids or one kid. Because you might get divorced anyway, the sky might fall, things happen and you have a great kid already, so you need to get to okay regardless of circumstances.

I know it is not nearly that simple at all but in some ways, it sounds like you are both trapped by your depression. She probably doesn't want to leave because you're depressed but you also can't commit to having another kid because you're depressed. And it sounds like the only dad your child has ever known is Depressed Dad. You all deserve better. This is not to shame or judge but just my wish for all of you that you get better because that will help everyone here.

I think helping you get to a better place should be job #1 for you. If she needs to get out of your relationship and have another kid some other way for her to be happy and healthy, so be it. She is absolutely entitled to be happy and healthy, as you are. Neither of you are solely responsible for the others' happiness and fulfillment. But you are never going to be the loving partner and father (to your current kid at least) you can be with this dark cloud hanging over your head. You owe that to yourself and your child, even if not your wife and children you may have in the future.

I really wish you the best of luck.
posted by kat518 at 9:13 AM on March 13 [3 favorites]

Is adoption or fostering a possibility? Getting pregnant at 37 can already be a crapshoot, so as others have stated, even if you capitulated and started trying to get her pregnant right away, it might not even happen, and the child would already have an increased risk of chromosomal abnormalities. If you do somehow become OK with the idea of a second child, the lag time in between starting to try adoption and actually being matched with a baby/child will give you some time in which you both can work on yourselves and your marriage, without your wife feeling like you are trying to keep her from having something she really wants. You really should have a gameplan of what you're going to do though, because it would be incredibly terrible if you got two years into the adoption process, were matched with a baby, and still having these doubts. It's an option though.

And, to answer your specific question, an interesting book that tries to convince people of the very thing you are asking about is: "Selfish Reasons to Have More Children" by Bryan Caplan. He goes into research mainly on twin/adoption studies and purports that the quality of parenting has little to do with what kind of adults kids grow up into, but the thing parenting really DOES affect is how children remember how good/bad their childhood was.

This answer has nothing to do with the morality/fairness of the demands of your wife, which I personally would not appreciate, but the situation seems to be a bit complicated.
posted by permiechickie at 9:21 AM on March 13

thanks to SaucySault, Filthy Light Thief & Feral Goldfish

I'm an only child. Mrs. S is the younger of two.

I was very involved in raising Spaulding Jr. from the get-go & continue to be so today. Diapers, feeding, walks, I QB'd all his doctor stuff, QB'd researching preschools. Continue to do so today. Kiddo comes upstairs when he first wakes up, cuddles with Dad, I get him ready for school & breakfasted. I cook 3 nights a week. I do bath, Mrs. reads stories, and we switch often.

Aside from this issue, we have a marriage that is good and its getting better again. It took a huge hit for 2 years but its on the mend. It is neither dead nor heading for divorce as a fait accompli.
posted by spaldinggetyourfootofftheboat at 9:37 AM on March 13

This statement, from one of your follow-ups:

My wife has reassured me that she will always be at my side with the depression stuff & she just wants to know how we can work with it better.

...does not square with this statement from your original question:

Wife has made it clear she could not forgive me if we didn't have a 2nd and she would leave the marriage.

These seem to me to be mutually exclusive positions. If she truly will always be at your side with your depression and wants to know how to work with it better, then presumably she has to accept that one solution may in fact be to give up her dream of a second child. If she finds not having a second child to be unforgivable and grounds for divorce, then she isn't really prepared to be by your side in regards to the depression, come what may.

I don't say this to play "gotcha!" with your wife's point of view, but rather to say that there appears to be an essential contradiction here in terms of the ground she's staking.
posted by scody at 9:57 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]

I never wanted children. Never, ever, ever. Didn't play with dolls as a little girl, didn't babysit, didn't like other people's kids on planes, didn't even like my friends' kids. My husband was similarly uninterested in children. Five days before his scheduled vasectomy, I found out I was really, really pregnant. After a great deal of stress, we decided to commit to being good parents to this little lump, although did a pretty minimal job of buying things. I don't think we spent more than $200 on everything all put together for the baby about to arrive.

Then she was born, and we fell in love, and everything changed in our lives. We are 100% parents, totally and completely committed to this girl, who is now nine years old. All the downsides we'd imagined were there, but the upsides we'd never imagined. We had no idea how profoundly we could feel love, how deeply changed we would be.

My situation isn't the same as yours, as you've already had a child and know the joys and problems having a child can bring. But my point is simply that sometimes what you expect, and what you get, aren't at all the same. I sense that you're going to go ahead and have a second child, even with your misgivings, and that you're looking for hope that this will be a good thing. I can only assure you that bringing a baby into the family will utterly change everything, and that with the right internal personal commitment, you can be a wonderful father and give this child the best of who you are. Many families have a first, second, or nth child without planning it, and without wanting it, and still find incredible joy with their little accidents. You've found great joy in your first child, and I sincerely hope that you find similar joy with the second.
posted by Capri at 10:03 AM on March 13

Separate the kid decision from the blackmail. Ask for discussions on the blackmail in counseling.

Then rationally discuss the second kid option.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:11 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]

I have no idea what the right decision is regarding whether or not to have a second child.

However, you asked "help me see past my resentment & anxiety to a place where this will all be ok."

I think that it could be helpful for you to work out exactly what you feel about having a second kid. That is:

- you said that from the beginning (presumably before you'd had your first child) you knew that you wanted only one kid. What were your reasons? What did you envision when you thought about having more than one? What things were you afraid would happen?

- similarly, what specific issues are you anxious about now with respect to a second child? You already know some of the things that new parenthood will involve (though not all) and you know what issues came up with your first child and what triggered difficulties for you and your relationship with your wife.

Try to be as specific and thorough as possible documenting exactly what worries you, what you are afraid of, the negative things that you know you can expect (lack of energy, fights), the worries that seem stupid but that you nonetheless possess, etc.

Then, a day or two later, go through the list. Address the issues one by one, rating how serious you consider them. Write down how likely you think they are to happen and what can in theory be done to address them. If you think nothing can be done to address them, write that too. If you think of more concerns, just add them to the list.

Then, once you've done that, go over the list with your wife (probably in therapy). Issue by issue, figure out what strategies you two would take if you did have another child and that issue did come up. Suppose you had the same difficulties as last time. What specific steps could you two commit to taking to make sure the outcome was different this time around?

Even if you don't go over the list with your wife, it's worth doing it just for yourself to make sure you've absolutely thought things out clearly and re-evaluated the potential impact of your various concerns. If you do go over it with your wife, make it clear that this is an exercise to help you come to a decision; that it's not a promise that you are going to decide one way or the other. Possibly ask her to make a list of her own, in this case about her concerns regarding not having a second child, as well as what she would do if she had a hard time conceiving: would she go for fertility treatments? adoption? give up? How would she feel and what would she do? What feelings does she have in association with the idea of having two children? What feelings does she associate with having just one?

Basically this is a CBT-type of exercise, and while I don't know if it would make the decision any easier, I think it could help you and your wife better understand where you're coming from and what the possibilities are.
posted by egg drop at 12:36 PM on March 13

I feel your question could be better answered if you provided a better understanding about what it is about having kids that specifically causes you problems (mental and/or otherwise).
posted by Dansaman at 12:43 PM on March 13

I would like to suggest a different point of view: many times on the green the advice of "trust your gut" or "trust your instinct" is given. It seems to me that your gut is telling you "do not have another child. Do. Not. Do. It." Yet, here you are, trying to think your way into having a second child.

I have no idea why your instinct is telling you what it's telling you. Maybe it's because having a child while battling depression is almost always very hard on the child and the sufferer. Maybe it's because your subconscious can sense that your marriage isn’t as strong as you need it to be for you to feel safe having a second child. Maybe you just really don’t want to dedicate all that money, time, and section of your life to another child. Maybe you enjoyed being an only child and want to give your current child all that you were given and more.

No matter what the reason, listen to your gut. It's trying to save you. It's telling you to hold off on a second child for a reason. Spend your time trying to figure out what that reason is instead of trying to talk yourself away from it, because your instinct may very well be correct.
posted by Shouraku at 12:54 PM on March 13 [4 favorites]

I went from not wanting any children to being convinced I would have at least two, maybe more. I said to my partner (who would go the agnostic version of 'as many as we are blessed with' if he could) that I would do two pregnancies.

Then we had our daughter, and I was still on board. Then at around two months I just stopped ever wanting any more kids. So we shelved the 'start trying at six months' and talked about it again at 12 months. Still a big fat 'nope' from me. Two years, still a big no. Had a grotesque argument about it because I was tying myself in knots and hoping somehow that talking to him would make me change my mind* and he finally broke down crying and pulled over to tell me he could not talk about it any more because every time we did it would break his heart to think about the kids he was never going to have. Because he loved me, it's my body, of course we will only have as many kids as I want, but it still breaks his heart a little I think. So he sublimates it into being an awesome dad, a totally awesome uncle and so on. And we stopped talking about 'if' and started talking about permanent birth control.

For me, I could never get over that hump. We had a pregnancy scare recently and I realised that I would never ever forgive my partner because I could never ever abort his baby, not when he wants another child, but I just cannot want it. Cannot. If it happened, for whatever reason, I would adjust, I would deal, but I think I would resent him a little for it.

*Because not wanting any more kids is so negative that no matter what you want, you start believing it's because something is wrong with you. Exponentially worse when your marriage is on the line (mine wasn't, but it felt like it and feels like it some days because we disagree so much on this).
posted by geek anachronism at 8:24 PM on March 13 [1 favorite]

Thank you to everyone who took the time to offer their thoughts & feedback on a hard question.
posted by spaldinggetyourfootofftheboat at 5:29 PM on March 14

I always said I wanted at least 2 kids, and my ex- clearly knew it, and openly agreed. But our child was difficult, and my ex- really, really hates being responsible. It was definitely a big factor in our breakup. Sadly, my ex- presented a false version of himself, and his true self emerged slowly and irrevocably. We divorced, and I have only 1 child. I'll probably carry some of that resentment to the grave. My ex- committed fraud. I'd have twice as much fun with 2 kids, probably. But I'm so very glad we're apart. He wouldn't talk about it, just gave me an ultimatum, and did it in a very shitty way. He was a crappy husband, and was horrible to co-parent with after divorce.

You're depressed and anxious to the point that it seems a dominant issue in your life and your marriage. Should your wife stay with you? Can you offer a loving and healthy life to her? Think about what you want your life to look like in 10, 20 and 50 years. I'd tell her to do the same.
posted by Mom at 9:39 AM on April 10