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Spock loves Kirk but fails miserably as Troi
March 12, 2013 5:13 PM Subscribe

Dear Vulcan Homeworld, I want to learn how to converse better with my wife. Currently my overly-logical thought and speech patterns upset her, frequently in ways I'm unable even to predict. She deserves better. I've struggled on my own to come up with dozens of different approaches, all of which have ultimately failed in different ways, so I come to you for help.

[Apologies in advance for length.]

Possibly important background: by "wife" I mean my best friend of years; we have children together and plan to spend our lives together but do not have a romantic relationship together, which we both do with "husband"; we are a triad. I am a woman. I am happy to provide more information if it's found relevant but hope this is a sufficient explanation.

Note: She's not very interested in couples therapy. (I see a potential value.)

Snowflake Details: I am a fairly introspective, logic-oriented person. My highest values are truth and self-education, along with striving for a deep respect and love for all people *as themselves*. I've been called very "Spock-like", although I do deeply respect the role emotion plays in all of our lives - but I also think the truth is ultimately more important than my response to it, and I've been tested as on the autistic spectrum. Both my mother and brother are Aspies, and so I grew up in a household where correcting people and long-winded discussions on arcane topics were completely normal.

Due to this I've tried to make a life-long careful study of "normal" everyday interactions between people, and modified myself to be more emotionally responsive and supportive instead of responding in the way that is, to me, more natural and comfortable.

For the most part I've done okay with this. I have a success at work, which is all customer-oriented, good friendships, good family relationships, and do not have this problem with our husband at all. However, I can't quite get my head in gear for my wife, and it's causing her problems.

Our relationship: What happens in discussions, whether "Relationship Talks" or just chatting, is that I:

* Attempt to problem solve when I should be listening
* Active listen when she wants problem-solving
* Step back to explain a concept I just used, which makes her feel ignorant
* Assume she knows a concept I just used, which makes her feel ignorant
* Respond "too logically", which is by far my most grievous error, and frequently ends in her yelling at me and storming off.

I do feel very awful that I've made her feel so bad, but I think the biggest problem is that I have NO idea what I'm doing wrong. In my mind - which is not the whole truth, obviously - I'm speaking normally and have no idea that she's going to react so negatively, or afterwards, what I did wrong. I have tried asking what she needs at the start, eg, "Do you want to rant or discuss the topic?" but she feels that's too artificial an approach, or says "I don't know" and my guess is frequently wrong.

My "emotional disguise", too, breaks down when I'm stressed, sick, and so on. Which of course means that in deep discussions I'll start drifting into not making eye contact, speaking in a rushed, clipped speech, and generally being weird. This is obviously obnoxious and I'm not very good at steering myself back to normal once I'm in the headspace. I DO know that I can be really annoying at times - correcting data, adding an un-asked-for opinion, pointing out a logical error in a series of assumptions (mine most of all, of course), babbling for ages about a topic no one cares about, ect. I need to cut this out, I know. I've at least cut down over the years, but wife has known me that long and remembers it very well. This is the way I was raised, so it honestly took me awhile as a child before I realized it was even wrong to others, and sometimes I slip and make the same mistakes. I apologize but again: I know this is super, super annoying.

I have a college education and am an autodidact; our different interests have caused me to by happenstance absorb more "high culture" than her. (My ignorance is also laughably huge and I do not understand at all how to put a table together or watch a football game accurately.) BUT this does not mean I am smarter than her! Not at all! She knows FAR more about problem solving and everyday life than I do, and I frequently remark upon her brilliance, go to her for advice, admit my ignorance of a subject she knows vastly better than I, and so on. I do, though, think this ends up playing into a dynamic, because she has said I'm an elitist snob ect - as a gentle teasing, but still. She is a creative, vivacious, amazing person and I deeply admire her. I try to make that clear in my speech and actions as much as I can.

Examples:

Old and Important: She purchased some non-FDA approved medicine for Son during a cold. The instructions were written in Swedish, but what was in English said it was homeopathic. I said that while I was grateful for her going out and getting medicine, I wasn't comfortable giving him this. We started arguing about it, her pointing out that I should trust her choices, and it ended in me asking, as kindly as I could, if we were on the same board as to what "homeopathy" meant. She gave a… non-standard definition. I asked if we could look at a source we mutually agreed was credible, to see if I was incorrect.

She yelled at me that I refused to ever admit she was correct, that I thought she was stupid, that I always "had to have my big sources", and that I was a robot.

When she had cooled down I said that of course I didn't think she was stupid, not ever, but that I wanted to make sure we were making the best medical choices - and no, I didn't think homeopathy was included in that. That led to a discussion. I put forth my viewpoint of a rational, empirical universe and that I strove for truth; that my being wrong is good, because it means my truth is being updated, and that we should rely on evidence for certain important matters. (I do always thank her for correcting me if I am wrong about something. I try not to point out if she happens to be incorrect unless it's something major, like this medicine example. Again this is contrary to my 18 years of childhood development so sometimes I screw up). She said I needed to learn how to speak like a human. This was one of the biggest fights in our long years together.

Old and Minor: Ugh this is embarrassing to remember. I was telling a story to a mutual friend about a class that had gone horribly awry, after our TA made a basic mistake and then stuck to it despite all evidence to the contrary, disrupting the entire class period and ending in a Wiki edit war. It's a kinda funny story, but in it I said "I mean EVERYONE knows what Plato wrote!" What I meant was "A TA with sufficient training to sub a Philosophy course would presumably know Plato vs Aristotle's corpus, or at least be willing to agree with the entire internet on the matter." But, as wife pointed out, what it sounded like was "Everyone who doesn't know Plato is a total idiot", and since that included her, she was naturally deeply offended. I should have chosen my words better or not said it at all. I always assume everyone knows what I'm talking about (it seems mean to assume they're ignorant) but that's not very helpful (or logical!). (I mean, people assume I know what they're talking about when the say "allen wrench" or "waterproof mascara", but that's my own fault for being hopeless. :) )

Recent: She was absent when husband and I started working on a job search for him, on her computer. When she returned, she offered an idea on file saving. At first I started mentioning how I'd worked around that problem, but then stopped myself. Wanting to honor her contribution, the fact that she was now joining us, and the fact that I did have *her* computer, I asked if she wanted the keyboard instead of me. She raised her voice and stated that it wasn't something she had asked for, that I was being a jerk, and that fine, she wouldn't participate in family events then. She went to the bedroom and refused to speak to either of us for the rest of the night.

The next day she was still a bit cold around me, so I left that evening so that she and husband could hang out, maybe talk or at least maybe she could de-stress a bit. I asked him if there was anything I could do to avoid these confrontations in the future, and what I might be doing wrong.

He actually said that he thought her reaction was out of line, and not really my fault. That surprised me because I assume all of these such interactions are due to my ignorance. She is a giving, loving woman and if I make her feel stupid or unheard that's something I want to immediately change about myself.

But he doesn't know the right way for me to go about this either, or how to be "less robotic". I've tried meekness, self-assertion, compassionate listening, active listening, giving her lots of space, giving her lots of attention, being dispassionate, not arguing for my viewpoint, arguing for my viewpoint - everything I can think of, and am just stuck at this point. I do feel like I've changed myself a lot and try to not-be-myself as much as possible; in some ways it is just a slip which I try to be aware of and apologize for, in other ways I don't know the right way to change myself or who-to or even sometimes why.

TL;DR: How can I be less "Spock-like" and learn how to be better with my words? My wife needs a better me. Tell me all the ways I am wrong! Thank you thank you thank you.

posted by blue_and_bronze to human relations (39 answers total) 9 users marked this as a favorite

Reading over the problem, I don't know that your "Spock-ness" is really the problem. It reads more that your wife is a bit insecure about your perceived intelligence. You say that you believe she's smart and vivacious and all these things - but do you tell her these things?

The argument over homeopathic medicine, for example. Yes, rational universe, etc, etc. But what it really sounds like it's about is your wife feeling defensive about her intelligence, and feeling, maybe, that you're trying to make her feel stupid.
posted by corb at 5:23 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

Your wife sounds like kind of a dick, honestly. Storming off and refusing to speak to you for the night, purposefully taking things in the worst way possible? Not adult ways to handle relationships.

Obviously we only have your side here, but it sounds to me like you're doing everything that could reasonably be expected of you. Wife needs to give a little too.
posted by corvine at 5:24 PM on March 12 [13 favorites]

If I take what you have said at face value, it seems to me that you are less of the problem here. At some point, you should stop apologizing for who you are. Just as you need to work on being less robotic, it seems your wife could work on being less emotional. You shouldn't automatically assume when someone reacts poorly to you, that it is automatically your fault.

Similarly, it also sounds as if every time that you both have a disagreement, you want to stop and have a conversation about how you can do better, or about how you should have responded. I know you mean the best, but from experience, I know this can be exhausting for the other person. Sometimes, people behave irrationally, and they cannot (or don't want to) come up with a reasonable explanation for why. Or, who knows, maybe wife had a long hard day, and needed an emotional outlet and wanted to pick a fight. It is hard to tell sometimes, even for people who aren't on a spectrum.
posted by nasayre at 5:26 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]

oh, and this:

She is a giving, loving woman and if I make her feel stupid or unheard that's something I want to immediately change about myself.

It's great that you are so interested in adapting yourself to the situation and to being a compassionate partner, but at the end of the day, she's responsible for her own feelings -- not you.
posted by scody at 5:27 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]

move next door or as close as it feels comfortable to have a second place that is separate but equal to the family. this sounds like an economic experimentation that was developed based on emotions rather than skills valuation, base it may sound.
I guess the husband somehow benefits from the situation, he might have wanted kids. his support is key but he knows nothing that can open up his wife to compromise. you will need to be vigilant and accept that you are on timeout. spend time with the husband, help out quietly making meals, leave when meals are over. let the the child be himself and tell him to listen to all the adults. you need breathing space soon because it is useful to holding partners together. I wish you well.
posted by parmanparman at 5:37 PM on March 12

I'm going to assume that wife is not an immature jerk, after all, you've been best friends for years. It sounds like you both don't have the tools to communicate effectively with one another. Your styles are very different and there's a lot of water under the bridge already, and that history could be compounding current communication difficulties.

Would wife be more open to therapy if the goal was to work through a set of guidelines for how to communicate so that each of you is heard and understood? It could also serve as a benchmark that puts past communication problems in the past while providing a new start/clean slate.

This is an issue that needs to be fixed for your sake as well as hers, not to mention how it impacts husband and child. Joint therapy is a great place to work through it.
posted by quince at 5:37 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

The people above are giving answers I agree with, so I just have a suggestion. You say you don't have a romantic relationship but that you are best friends; do you ever display affection towards her physically? I don't mean sex. I mean hugging her, cuddling, giving massages, holding hands. Non-sexual but affectionate touch. Because if she's feeling hurt and is an emotionally oriented person, but you don't know how to help her or accommodate her problems in a logical way verbally, comforting touch can go quite far in helping someone be calm, rational, and feel loved. It might seem silly to suggest a hug could dampen the fuse on an argument, but sometimes an argument is really a disguised complaint that the instigator requires comfort. And you can provide it in a different, but no less logical way.
posted by Mizu at 5:43 PM on March 12 [8 favorites]

You two are not romantically involved with one another, but are both romantically involved with your husband.

How does the common denominator (your husband) deal with the two of you? You mentioned an incident where you and he were doing something and she came in, and she became unhappy with your interaction after that. Do you think there could be self-esteem or relationship issues among the three of you?

In order for the relationship all around to work, all three of you have to work together, so focusing on just the two of you might not be quite the answer.
posted by xingcat at 5:46 PM on March 12 [12 favorites]

Have you told her that you don't understand what she wants from you? She needs to make an effort to meet you halfway by telling you what she needs when she needs it. Spectrum or not, you can't know this stuff unless she tells you and it's selfish, cruel and unfair for her to expect you to.

Also, for you: accept that a lot of what she says and does comes from emotions, not from logic. Do not try to anticipate or understand emotions with reason because it won't work. So don't waste your time trying to find consistency or anything like that which you can then approach rationally. You can't deal with someone's emotions rationally because it will just make them more emotional and they see it as some kind of attack.

This is going to sound mean, but think of this person as a small child or an intelligent animal who isn't neccessarily aware of their real state or intentions when they're having emotional freakouts that make no sense to you. As much as they think it makes sense and they try to act like it makes semse, it probably doesn't - or, more accurately, it makes sense only if you know what's really behind it. There is usually something going on under the surface that has little to do with the stated cause of the distress. If a small child was throwing a temper tantrum over being proven wrong, you know it's probably from a desire for significance or dominance or from unexpressed fear or desire for control or because they are tired and need a hug and a nap... the best way to deal with a child in that situation is not to explain things with logic, but to get them to realise that you're on their team even though you disagree. Other people who are better at this than I am can probably explain it better.

I also want you to try and set aside the idea you seem to have, that your way of experiencing and understanding the world is somehow invalid. Just because it angers people doesn't make it wrong or bad. It just means that it's not effective in every situation.
posted by windykites at 5:54 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]

She has self-esteem issues. She's not willing to do therapy. She's not willing to adapt to your reality. You're basically catering to any possible aspect that could possibly be in play, and it's not often the correct aspect...which indicates caprice more than anything.

So...what can you do about this? Tricky.

If you really want to keep the unit intact, then you might try the completely forthright, "What would you like my response here to be?" Perhaps trying this repeatedly will help her to identify what she wants out of interactions before they become a tug-of-war between what she had in her head and what actually happened and how wrong (or not) that makes the other person.

It does seem to me that all three of you need to work together on this as a unit at least some of the time. Not as in taking sides, but as in finding a common ground all can agree on. Which brings me to ask: Have you observed how husband deals with her? Have you tried copying what he does?

If you're willing to change the dynamic, you could move out, as some have suggested, and give yourself a nearby space where interaction is still possible but you're not all up in each other's business, as it were.

You could attend individual therapy with a counselor versed and supportive of poly relationships involving children and apply the learning obtained there. I'd personally choose a clinical psychologist, but that's my own logical bend speaking.

One thing I wouldn't cave on is substances being given to children that you don't feel are safe or effective. That should be non-negotiable.
posted by batmonkey at 6:01 PM on March 12

I said that of course I didn't think she was stupid, not ever, but that I wanted to make sure we were making the best medical choices

This is what one might say to reprimand a child and/or try to diffuse a tense office situation with aggressive colleagues. Both of which sound sort of apropos.

But what one might say to a friend is, "Homeopathy? That's bullshit.", but in a friendly way. And then show her the Mitchell and Webb Homeopathic E.R. sketch.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 6:12 PM on March 12

I think part of the issue is that you have a tendency to cite your sources, which makes convos less about beliefs/value judgements and more about right vs. wrong.

You don't have to cite your sources with friends and life companions.
posted by spunweb at 6:17 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]

This is where you're at:

Sarek (you): "...One does not thank logic, Amanda."

Amanda Grayson (your wife): "Logic! Logic! I'm sick to death of logic! Do you want to know how I feel about your logic? "

I have no Star Trek analog for your husband, sorry. Anyway, I know that she is not interested in therapy, but have you on your own explored resources for spouses of autistic people? Perhaps reading about people who are having similar problems in their marriages might be helpful to you. Getting the other perspective, maybe a little more clearly than your wife can communicate it, seems like it would be useful.
posted by crankylex at 6:31 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

Right now, you seem to be doing 100% of the compromising and your wife seems to be doing 0%. That's not fair.

She knows she's in a relationship with somebody on the autism spectrum who was raised by folks on the spectrum and the issues aren't just you intending to be a jerk. She ought to be trying as hard as you to find common ground from which to communicate. To move forward, I think you need to understand why she's demanding compromise without giving any herself. I do see some intellectual intimidation and defensiveness coming from her, addressing that might be a good place to start.
posted by zug at 6:36 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

Could her lack of interest in couples therapy be semantic? The two of your are not a romantic couple, so couple's therapy might be something that makes her uncomfortable because it doesn't fit your relationship. Would she be more open to therapy if it were, maybe, family therapy?

This woman is your best friend, so why can't the two of you talk through this issue together? It really sounds like the two of you, together, need to find some tools or strategies. It sounds like what you're trying on your own isn't working, and you need to work together with her more in your efforts.
posted by snorkmaiden at 6:40 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]

She does sound like kind of a jerk, but you can't alter or control that. What you do have the power to alter is the way you respond to her, so that when it looks like a fire is starting you can avoid tipping on extra fuel.

The homoeopathy thing is a case in point. It is of course perfectly obvious that homoeopathy is all flimflam and placebo effect. The bad part about that is that it enables the unscrupulous to rip off the gullible. But there's an upside, which is that because homoeopathic remedies don't do anything to the body, they can't possibly harm it.

Which means that one of the options open to you at a critical point in the argument about homoeopathy was to let her give the kid the bullshit remedy. This would have had no effect at all on the viruses in his system, but it would certainly have made her feel better - and that, in turn, might have made him feel better. The only damage would have been to your own belief in seizing every opportunity to take a principled stand against quack medicine.

Naturally, this approach would apply only to homoeopathic or other purely-placebo treatments. It's perfectly right and proper to take a principled stand if it avoids exposing Son to questionable treatments with actual ingredients, or if the quackery in question is proposed as a substitute for evidence-based treatment.

To somebody who values truth and clarity, is can be infuriating to deal with people who would rather feel certain than be well-informed. So this kind of thing is certainly going to come up again and again; the two of you just do have opposing values.

But here's the thing: you are never, never, never going to shift another person's fundamental values by means of reasoned argument; best you can ever hope for is to change an opinion or two here and there. And, as you've already found to your considerable emotional cost, attempting to reason with somebody who is already responding to reason with anger is just making a rod for your own back.

It might help to consider the physical effects of anger on the human brain. Anger activates the amygdala, way down there in the lizard brain, and that activation physically diverts blood flow from the neocortex. When we get angry, it becomes easier to act than to think, for completely physiological reasons.

It seems highly likely to me that you yourself experienced some degree of anger during the homoeopathy debacle; wilful ignorance will usually provoke that in a habitual thinker. It also seems highly likely to me that had you not been experiencing that anger, you would have been able to reason your own way through to the "let it go" solution I outlined above. The fact that your own anger doesn't manifest as the kind of temper tantrum your wife bungs on doesn't mean it's not real.

I think it would pay you to develop some internal anger management strategies, so that next time she does something boneheaded or has a go at you for being who you are, you can avoid having that blow up into something bigger than it needs to be.

Because anger makes it easier to act than to think, anger management depends on cultivating a habitual response to feeling angry. The first part of that is to work out your standard routine: the traditional one, which usually works pretty well for non-pathological anger and is perfectly appropriate in the context of a verbal dispute, is taking a deep breath and mentally counting to ten before allowing yourself to speak. You can and should seize every opportunity to practice doing that whenever you find yourself mildly annoyed by something. I recommend low-dose exposure to Fox News if you're having trouble finding triggers.

And there is of course nothing at all wrong with picking a good time to just say to her, in so many words, that you know she sometimes finds you infuriating but that you are doing the best you can with what you have and that if she could please avoid yelling at you then that would be good. There is no need at all to back that request up with reasoning. It's a reasonable request on its face.
posted by flabdablet at 6:43 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]

Your wife is already getting a good you. You're describing yourself as Spock, not Data. You're aware of and in control of your emotions, and you're doing a better-than-average job of listening to her and trying to meet her emotional needs.

It sounds as though she feels threatened by you, or resentful of being in a triadic marriage rather than a dyad. Is it possible that her defensiveness is motivated by fear of losing your husband?

If that's the case, I suspect there's nothing you can do about this that you're not already doing. Explicitly trying to show respect for her seems to make her more uncomfortable. I think it's on her to work through what's bothering her, although that may not be an easy thing to accept because you love her.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:05 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

* Attempt to problem solve when I should be listening
* Active listen when she wants problem-solving
* Step back to explain a concept I just used, which makes her feel ignorant
* Assume she knows a concept I just used, which makes her feel ignorant
* Respond "too logically", which is by far my most grievous error, and frequently ends in her yelling at me and storming off.

These things can be mitigated to some extent. Maybe you're already doing some of this, but perhaps hearing it in someone else's terms will help:

* Try to preface problem-solving statements with statements that echo the other's feelings ("I understand ... I sympathize ... "). Strike a balance.

* When doing active listening, also ask open-ended questions that are vaguely--very vaguely--in the direction of some solution you have in mind, and if she pursues that line of thought with you, great, but otherwise drop it. If you do get to the point of problem-solving, try to let her fill in parts of the picture, and praise her contributions where you can.

* If you have to step back and explain a concept, instead of presenting it as a lecture on something essential to the matter at hand, see if you can say something like "Oh, it's a weird coincidence that I know this" or "Well, I'm not 100% sure this is on point, but ..."--that is, wherever it's accurate and reasonable to be modest about what you know, go ahead and expressly leave room for her to imagine your knowledge is accidental or inessential. It probably is from some point of view.

* If you mistakenly assume she knows something she actually doesn't, just say, "Oh, no, I should have said ..." or "My bad--I got ahead of myself and ought to have explained ..." and then, if possible, bring in some factor that makes the point less embarrassing, like how you'd just read an article on the topic last week or anything that explains why your knowledge isn't intrinsic to your towering intellect or impossible for her to respond to meaningfully.

* Instead of responding logically, respond diplomatically, as near to always as you can. There's an art to being truthful at all times in a way that also leaves others' egos relatively intact.

In the end, you're probably going to "win" whatever is the object of a debate, just because you seem a good bit more reserved and cool-headed, so you can probably afford quite a lot of polite distance from your own ideas, offering her face-saving wiggle room wherever possible as long as your concrete goals (e.g. "no homeopathy") are met.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 7:30 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

I used to have this problem with my friends. (I still do, but only in places where I don't care about other people, like online forums. At work and in my social life, I'm one of the popular kids on the block.) Some people have suggested that I might have mild Asperger's, but this always comes from people whom I don't care about anymore (and have already kicked to the curb for being toxic), so even if the diagnosis is correct it's more of a benefit than a disadvantage really.

One thing that really helped me was learning to reframe the goals of my conversations. I think when I was younger I defined the "goal" of my conversations as "getting my way" or "getting the other person to admit that I'm right." But nowadays, I view the goal of most face-to-face interactions as "how can I get this person to like me more by the end of the conversation than they did at the beginning?" (With a optional bonus objective of "How can I find out more about what makes this person tick?") When you approach a conversation with that mindset, it turns the dialogue into a fascinating intellectual game, because human psychology is something where you can always find sometime more to learn about. And it also solves the "robotic" problem, because when people like you they will write your analytical nature off as an adorable quirk instead of a communication problem.

From time to time, I actually have to accomplish a more tangible agenda in a conversation rather than just "being liked" but the great thing about this approach is that over time, you built social capital from all those past conversations where you focused on developing the friendship, so if you ever need to get somebody to go along with you, you can just shortcircuit the whole logical debate structure by saying "Look, we've been friends a long time, and I've always been very accommodating and supportive of you, especially when I know something means a lot to you. Well, this thing we're talking about now means a lot to me, and I don't understand why you can't just go along with me on this, the same way I've done for you in the past." And most of the time, when you frame it in this way, people tend to go along with it. (At least, in my personal experience. YMMV)
posted by wolfdreams01 at 7:45 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

I am the emotional sort. My ex husband probably qualifies as aspie and we have two ASD sons. My ex never learned to deal effectively with me. Our sons think I am a pushover, easily mollified, and their dad is kind of dumb for not figuring it out. So from my perspective:

The medication issue: You say "Homeopathy is scientifcally unproven and illogical." She hears "You are a bad mom and I don't trust you to do right by the child." If this is her biological child, that will be even more offensive. I suggest you consider butting out unless you have reason to believe this will cause egregious (life threatening) harm. If you really feel she is wrong and child needs different medical treatment in the future, try to discuss that in more general terms under less emotional circumstances, like when child is healthy.

The computer incident: This reads to me as though you and husband were having important, meaty discussion in her absence, giving her no real input. Her reaction implies this is not the first time. Offering her the keyboard probably came across as "Here, you can take notes/play secretary while we continue to have deep, meaningful discussion that you won't really be included in." (If that is the case, I would have been a lot bitchier about it than she was.)

Her responses look to me like the dynamic is not just you but you and hubby. If she feels insecure, there is probably a real reason for that. Hubby's dismissal of her reaction is a red flag to me. Emotional people are often treated dismissively by more "logical" people, in a way which does strongly convey "you are dumb and won't be given equal say because of it."

She needs validation. You say she is very loving and giving. If you are anything like my exhusband, you are probably saying things like "This meal was fantastic" when she cooks and not understanding why she doesn't feel validated. What you should be saying is more like "You are a fantastic cook. You are so good to us, slaving over a hot stove all day to take care of us. No one else would be so devoted to the family." When she does something for you, acknowledge that she did something for you and that you understand she did it because she cares about people, not because she cares about things (food is a thing). Complimenting the food is not the same as complimenting her and kind of implies that you would be fine ordering take-out and her labor is not relevant or valued.
posted by Michele in California at 7:48 PM on March 12 [6 favorites]

There's more at work here than your empathy skills. So you have Asperger's traits, but this is not new, and presumably it wasn't a problem before. You've been bending over backward to change, and she doesn't appreciate the effort. And she's not open to counseling. This smacks of deep-seated anger over something bigger than homeopathic medicine or saving files. Your wife doesn't need a better you - you are fine just as you are. For your relationship to thrive, she does need to own up to whatever it is that's eating at her.
posted by mama penguin at 8:06 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]

There's something else going on here. Can you tell us more about this triad and how it came to be? It sounds like she resents your very presence -- the kind of person you are and how you exist in the world. Why might that be?
posted by 3491again at 8:20 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]

There's already been some wonderful answers but I just wanted to jump in and make a point of clarification since the question had been asked repeatedly.

(Though first: my wife is not a jerk! Definitely not! She's awesome! In hindsight this is really obvious, but the nature of my question is causing a huge selection bias. She's not always snappy/frustrated at me, and her everyday attitude, while more aggressive and sarcastic than mine is naturally, is also organized, caring, attentive, and beautifully silly. She's just frustrated at me a sufficient amount of the time that I want to change things.)

The triad: She and I were together for a long time before we introduced husband to the mix. We have two children (one each biologically, but we don't distinguish that for anything but legal matters; they have two mommies and have been raised together). We actually introduced husband as a mutual friend for the purpose of future child-having but conveniently all fell in love so hey. There was hours of discussion before, during, and now that we're all together. We are all happy with the way things are and do not want to break things up. If someone did move out it would be husband, no question - she and I have been partners since day one. I appreciate everyone's approach and thinking-outside-the-box-ness, but that's not on the table at this point.
posted by blue_and_bronze at 9:08 PM on March 12

She's just frustrated at me a sufficient amount of the time that I want to change things.

Again, it is admirable that you are so committed to working on yourself to improve your relationship. But what many of the answers here have in common is the suggestion that a good portion of the responsibility for your wife's frustrations lies with your wife. Or, to put it another way: it seems evident that you are not the only one who needs to make some changes in order to make this relationship work better. That might mean she needs to consider meeting you halfway to express her needs under certain circumstances, or agreeing to consider family therapy, or making the concerted effort not to take your education level personally. But you can't do all the heavy lifting here, because you're not solely responsible for the problems you're having.

She's a grown woman and has the capability to take responsibility for her feelings and learn to make changes in her behavior and reactions just like you can; just because she's primarily emotional and you're primarily logical doesn't give her a free pass to avoid doing the same personal work you're trying to do.
posted by scody at 9:37 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]

Sorry, one more thing:

I do feel like I've changed myself a lot and try to not-be-myself as much as possible;

I don't think it's healthy for any partner in a relationship to feel like they have to "not be themselves as much as possible." Your question and follow-up are both just filled with self-deprecation, self-criticism, and apologies for your basic personality to a degree that actually concerns me. Just because you're on the autism spectrum doesn't make you any less of a good person, worthy of love and respect and acceptance (both from your partners and from yourself) for who you are.
posted by scody at 9:44 PM on March 12 [18 favorites]

Have you considered going to individual therapy? A therapist can help you sort your feelings out, maybe find some better ways of communicating, and help you work through your reactions to these altercations.

I don't think we're really in a position to help you because the sort of interpersonal strife you're describing is so hard to describe. I agree with many above that her responses seem pretty unreasonable... But I also have experience interacting with people who use rationality, reasonableness, and calmness as weapons. They're people who are always right, who are calm and collected always without ever "breaking." Over time, it wears you down. It leads to this dynamic where they're The Rational One, and you are The Uncontrolled, Stupid One Who's Always Wrong. It needles you down to nothingness, and it can lead you to exploding in frustration, confusion, and rage. And you're not even in a position to say, "See? That you did just there? That was jerky, which is why I'm angry" because they always do the rational, appropriate thing. It's maddening.

I'm not suggesting you're using your rationality as a weapon. But, from your question, it seems possible that your behavior isn't too far off from people who do. So, maybe she's reacting inappropriately in these particular cases due to a longstanding dynamic between the two of you which she can't easily describe but which is painful to her... Or maybe you're not like that, and maybe she's just not coping appropriately in general, and you hold no responsibility for it. I don't know. None of us can. But a therapist could, potentially, help you sort it out.
posted by meese at 10:24 PM on March 12 [4 favorites]

The biggest thing that stands out to me is that y'all are doing a very emotionally difficult thing, such that most triads consider counseling a necessary element of preventative maintenance, but counseling is somehow not on the table. If you're co-habitating, co-parenting and co-married, you are connected in some deep ways that few of your peers will understand. Even though you and your wife are not romantically (sexually?) involved, you need to be on the same page to such an extent that you need to find an intermediary to help you communicate.
posted by SakuraK at 10:43 PM on March 12 [1 favorite]

I don't see any of the big issues other people here see. The Emo-Aspie communication gap is pretty huge. It is one of the reasons my marriage did not work. My sons and I have worked it out, but it took a good long time. It didn't start out as smooth sailing. My main point in my earlier post was that it can be learned and I hoped to give some helpful examples.

One big problem that I have repeatedly seen: In a fight or stressful situation, the "logical" people want to cool the conflict down by being more coldly logic and the emotional folks feel like they are being frozen out. They desperately need more warmth, so they get more fiery. Naturally, the logical people turn into iceburgs in reaction and stack on yet more cold facts, which is then met with fireballs (and possible histrionics) and everyone hates it. If you are cold and she is warm, a better reaction to friction is likely to be a hug, warm reassurance, etc.
posted by Michele in California at 11:12 PM on March 12 [3 favorites]

My knee jerk reaction was that your wife is being a bit of a jerk and that you are in the right in all the situations you describe.

But if we discount that and assume the best, then I think the problem might be that you are being too insincere. (And sincerity is not something you can fake, so don't start trying to do that :) )

When you suggested looking up homoeopathy in case your definition was wrong, did you really believe that was likely to be the case, or were you trying to be nice? Because it sounds like the most stereotypical way possible of trying to "gently" suggest that the other person is wrong instead of flat-out stating it.

Offering the keyboard during the computer session? That sounds too like you were trying to appease your wife because you thought you'd upset her by just going ahead and explaining your file saving solution.

Attempting to choose the "right" response in terms of problem solving vs active listening, again, sounds like very deliberate appeasement of the other person. I know that we are taught that sometimes all someone wants is listening, and if we are too quick to jump in and offer solutions, we should try stepping back.

But you know what? Your wife KNOWS you. She really knows you. And I'm guessing if you are on the spectrum, you may not be choosing quite the right tone or whatever when you try these gentle appeasement techniques. She is seeing right through you. And then I bet it irritates her to know that you are trying to step carefully around her emotions because that too sends a message: that she is difficult or fragile, or irrational.

The thing is, a lot of people deliberately overuse these sorts of techniques in a sarcastic way to passively aggressively point out their partner's failings. I don't think you are. But if you are trying to be sincere, but are pitching your tone wrong, you might be coming across as passive aggressive, or as condescending.

So I think you should stop trying to change yourself to be extra gentle or non-elitist, or to do what you think she wants from you. Because you are getting it wrong anyway. Just do what you want to do in any given interaction. Whatever comes naturally. And if she does know you and love you like you say she does, I bet she'll find sincere but misjudged responses amusing instead of irritating.

If you take this advice, you should probably tell her that you are going to try this, by the way. That way she'll understand why your behaviour or responses have changed.
posted by lollusc at 1:39 AM on March 13 [9 favorites]

Just going on a feeling here, but hmmm, maybe look at the way you've presented this question as an example? I mean in a way it's sort of like a "humblebrag". Even though you end it all with much apparent humility ("My wife needs a better me"), the way you've organized the information to present what you are doing "wrong" is pretty obviously putting forward the facts in a way that shows you are both objectively right and also clearly trying to meet her more than halfway, and she is ... irrational and must be managed carefully in order not to inadvertently "set her off for no reason" (ie "upset her, frequently in ways I'm unable even to predict"). The way the information has been presented here has been so effective in establishing this that you have even had to step in to defend your wife.

I think that I can understand her frustration with this kind of, um... "thumb-on-the-scale" weighing and measuring of what she "wants" and the responses and evidence that you are trying to offer, ever. so. carefully. in order not to trip over her inscrutable feelings and baffling insecurities. Can you see how it might be infuriating to deal with an effective "here are all the ways in which I am more correct than you in every way and please also witness how I am twisting myself into a pretzel just trying to mollify your irrational nature, so am I not also almost heroically loving, self-sacrificing and good as well as clearly right?"

I've presented that in a bit of a hyperbolic way, but I can certainly imagine a possible scenario wherein in your wife's position I would feel both very angry and unable to articulate that your efforts to accommodate me are in themselves insulting and/or disingenuous and implicitly self-congratulatory. How does one word this? Please stop laboring to understand me? Please stop trying to delicately anticipate how I might react to your choice of response to my problem?

Can you see how offering the keyboard might have been interpreted as an action that says "oh, let me do what I can to appease my wife's weird feelings and perform an action to clearly demonstrate that I value her participation even though I've actually already solved this problem myself so her input is unneeded"?

I believe that you love your wife, and she loves you, and that you guys can work out this problem, if it is indeed a big part of your communication breakdown. On your side you can try to police yourself not to build your arguments and responses in such a way that they seem to be trumpeting what great pains you are taking to be careful and patient with her incorrect understanding and inscrutable emotionality. On her side she can agree that it's sometimes okay to just state what she wants... even if she's not sure at the outset of the conversation, or if it changes as she is working it out. It's okay for her to say, "look, I thought I wanted advice about this situation, but really I think I just want to talk it through with you and vent a little," and if you both agree that she is getting frustrated with what may be your subconciously self-regarding form of interaction, she can remind you "hey, you're doing that thing again? Please come back to a common plane with me, and don't perform how diplomatic and selfless you are?" etc. In the grand scheme of things, it's probably actually a minor stumbling block, but one that has occasional outsize repercussions on your relationship, probably in times of more stress or when other factors come into play... and it's also very possible that you each escalate your respective provoking behavior in response to the other over this small bit of tricky business.

Good luck with your efforts to work this out! I do believe that you really and truly want your wife to be happier and feel loved, valued and needed, and that you are genuinely open to reassessing your contribution to the problematic dynamic, but that you might not be at all aware of the potentially infuriating way that your approach might possibly be sometimes seen as giving-&-caring "theater"... with yourself in the lead role as the stoic (and correct!) heroine.
posted by taz at 3:11 AM on March 13 [15 favorites]

From the way you phrase your question, it sounds as if you've twisted yourself into knots trying to find a solution to your communication problems... and your wife has simply stood her ground and repeatedly told you how unnatural your techniques are. It's obvious that you've absorbed this kind of thinking into your own - you repeatedly apologize for the way you think, the way you act, the way you can't read her mind. You also seem to have this belief that because you're on the autistic spectrum, you must be the one at fault... which I don't think is correct.

It takes two people to communicate. Right now, only one of those people is trying to fix things. It's impossible to make progress in this fashion and it sounds as if it's taking a toll on your self-esteem and happiness. This isn't only your problem, it's a problem you two share, and she needs to acknowledge that and join you in finding a solution (and you've provided her with many that I find completely appropriate!).

I'm not on the spectrum myself but I'm a very scientific-method-oriented person and it often leads to friction in my relationships with others. I often have to ask if they want to rant or if they want a solution. I have yet to have someone tell me that this is too artificial, which leads me to be concerned about how your wife is approaching this problem.

That is not to say that I don't think she's sweet or wonderful or loving or gracious (etc), just that she needs to be invested in fixing this too, and by choosing not to, she's putting the entire weight of the problem on your shoulders and that's not really OK. So in my mind, this is less a logic vs. emotion issue and more of a "we have a problem and she won't help me find a solution" issue.
posted by buteo at 5:28 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]

You sound just like my husband (or who my husband would like to be) and I suspect I am filling in the role of your wife. He spends so much time and energy analyzing and sorting out his emotions and what correct responses are to situations that it drives me up the wall. We got to a place where I would go to crazy emotional lengths with him just to get the teenyest tinyest reaction out of him that wasn't well thought out and logical. He would handle it by doing what your doing and actually analyzing things even more which drove me crazier and things got into a huge death spiral.

We sat down (many times) and slowly talked it through and finally came up with some ground rules and signals. If he started to lecture me because I was doing something he did not think was logical, I would say something like "Do not confuse me with your facts" or a growled "back off" if I'm in a bad mood. He can now completely disarm one of my crazy rants with a calm and heart felt "I love you you know?".

He's had to learn to let shit slide and to not always have to be right and to not always have to work out the optimum way to handle any situation. If what I am doing is not making it worse and I am not in immediate danger shut the fuck up and let me do it, is one of the agreements we came to. In return I have to accept that he will ask me 3 million questions about any decision we make as a family unit and needs to know all permutations before we make a choice about anything from where we go for dinner to what colour to paint the dining room.

If you can't go to some sort of therapy, not so much for couples counselling maybe you and your wife (and even your husband) can set up some key words for you both to use in situations that might be becoming a little fraught. Say you have one for I don't understand what you want from me right now, and she can have one for I think you are patronizing me please stop. If you can make them funny or in jokes it really can help defuse the situation. In our case we often end up laughing when one of us uses them now and it helps us time out and reevaluate what is happening.

Also hug her more. If there was one thing I would tell my husband, it is to hug me more. I know your relationship with your wife is different, but hug her, hold her hand or just sit close to her, you are in an emotional relationship even if it's not sexual, its OK to show affection to someone you love in non sexual but physical ways and that can mean a lot to people.
posted by wwax at 8:20 AM on March 13 [2 favorites]

As I read your narrative I was struck by the way your situation reminds me of my relationship to my brother. Sometimes one sibling stands in the other's shadow. Hard feelings are what happens.

It would be simple to believe that she's just being a jerk, but I suspect that it's more subtle than that: is she also this goofy with her other relationships? Probably not, so it's the mix that stimulates this interaction. The husband here won't be a successful mediator. But please don't fall into the fallacious mode of believing that by changing your personality you can cure her problem.

I suspect that some sort of communications counseling on her part might help her understand her antipathy towards you. I doubt that anything you say would help, because she seems to already have set up resistance to your input. Another tack to think about is that she may (whether she is aware or not) wish to re-structure the relationship so that you are not a competitor with Husband for time and/or affection.

Of these two notions, I don't have a concrete suggestion that might help you. She's the one who needs the fresh ideas.

I worked out the problem with my brother by growing up and getting out of the immediate environment--kids leave the nest, you see. As years passed, we grew even closer, but we didn't share the same life's orbit, and I didn't have to compare my doings with his. Being siblings, dumping him wasn't an option, but rearranging the relationship was--in this case it was a natural evolution. I don't insist that this interaction is similar to yours, but, as I said, your narrative sends sympathetic ripples to me.

(small detail: his family took me in when I was young, and I lived with them. We weren't related by blood, and, for more than 50 years, we remained brothers in fact until his death a couple of weeks ago.)

Live long and prosper.
posted by mule98J at 10:30 AM on March 13

Jesus. I love how whenever someone who self-describes as "analytical" posts a question on askme, all of the "emo" people come out, accuse him/her of being cruel or of humblebragging, and then begin to humblebrag, themselves, because of their "superior" emotional insight and processing...

Listen - sometimes emotional people get overly emotional, and next thing you know, you're getting eviscerated because "you didn't fold the towels right, which means you don't love me!" or "you made an off-the-cuff quip about Plato that has nothing to do with me, and I am going to interpret that as a cutting remark about my intelligence!" which is, frankly, self-absorbed bullshit.

On the other hand, you identify yourself as being on the spectrum, and of having to work hard at recognizing and dealing with social subtleties, so I think it is certainly probable that you might be inadvertently saying or doing things that are insensitive and hurtful, because this is a thing, and if you don't work to address that, I think that would also count as bullshit. You do seem to be trying, though...

Counseling is probably the answer here, but she won't go for it. Okaaaaaay...that's not great, really, especially since you do seem to have a more complicated, and unique, family dynamic. But you can go for yourself, and you might find it useful. Also, have you checked into continuing education classes as your nearest college or university? Mine periodically has classes about intimate communication or problem-solving, and such a class might be a useful environment for you two (three?) that is less intimidating than couples counseling.

To me, it sounds like you are twisting yourself up to solve this problems entirely on your own, which is ineffective, because A) that is untenable in the long run, and B) I think you are both contributing to this dynamic, so you can't take it all upon yourself.
posted by vivid postcard at 11:42 AM on March 13

She said I needed to learn how to speak like a human.

I'll be honest- this post made me so sad for you, but this sentence just about broke my heart. I have had people say things like that to me all my life. I was much, much happier once I stopped thinking that I was wrong because I am different than other people.

I think first you need to go talk to someone about your relationship with your wife by yourself at first. It sounds like you're bewildered by her volatility and have been guided by her perception of your personality because, logically, you assume her external perspective on your behavior has more weight than your internal experience. I don't think that is necessarily the case. That is why an objective opinion might help give you data upon which to build a more balanced view of your interactions.

It sounds like there's a world of other stuff going on with your relationship with her, but the sense of shame over your own personality in your post (whether just arising from the focus of the question being someone else's perception of you as a 'wrong' person or a reflection of your own view of yourself) made me feel so worried and upset for you. Please take care of yourself.
posted by winna at 5:29 PM on March 13 [5 favorites]

Your wife sounds volatile and defensive, and I'm guessing a lot of people would find her challenging to deal with. Even if you care about each other, there may be a fundamental difference in your characters that will just inevitably create some tension. Maybe she's the McCoy to your Spock.

You are obviously making a real effort, and that counts for a lot. But she needs to make an effort to understand you, too.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 1:27 AM on March 14 [2 favorites]

Thank you so so much for all of your responses. (And I apologize in my delay for responding; I just returned from a long trip to rural WI where there is lots of cows but apparently NO INTERNET WHAT.)

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to respond to specific posts in a follow- up so: I especially appreciated the notes on physical touch. I think the read of "my logicalness is cold so she gets fiery to provoke a reaction, and then I'm like oh no must be more calm and she's like omg really" and it spirals is quite on the nose. So I am trying the hugging and hand-holding and so far it is working really well. She raised an eyebrow when I checked the time to see it'd been five hours and gave her another hug, but she smiled and hugged me back regardless. :)

I also think the whole "friend counseling" vs "relationship counseling" is a keen new approach.

I also also appreciate the support, and now feel more comfortable saying "sorry, to a certain extent I am stuck as to who I am, so let's deal with THAT and not imaginary-me". I do still feel I must have worded it too harshly for to have a negative response, but at the same time, hearing that I'm okay is very comforting. Which I suppose is a different ask-me question, but the responses were very thought-provoking and I appreciate every one.
posted by blue_and_bronze at 9:43 AM on March 30 [3 favorites]

I would like to make an observational comment regarding the number of times people responded by calling the wife "over emotional". I wonder about people who categorize others as "overly emotional", as if there were an agreed upon scale to which people should stick to when being emotional, and if, for example, they go over a scale of 8.5 on the "emotion scale", they can officially be branded as "overly emotional".

That seems a bit absurd to me, because there is no such scale. To what are people who call others overly emotional comparing? Maybe they are comparing one person's emotional state to their own, as if everyone should have the exact same amount and expression of emotions as themselves, which, if the case, means that they are overly emotional when compared to a person with less emotional expression.

People get emotional, some more than others, and there is always a reason behind it. If you choose to negate that reason in your mind, that is your choice, but it exists nonetheless.

Until there is a scale of what a majority of people deem proper emotional expression (the book 1984 comes to mind) then it seems quite irrational to label someone as overly emotional.
posted by Arachnophile at 12:36 AM on May 22

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Spock loves Kirk but fails miserably as Troi March 12, 2013 5:13 PM Subscribe

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