Grammar Filter: [He is a "black" man] or [He is a black man]
March 10, 2013 2:44 PM Subscribe
Hello, I'm having some difficulty getting a conclusive answer to the question of which is more "proper" grammatically and in academia. When referring to "blacks" and "whites" in society, I used to write them without quotes until a professor corrected me. However, when I use quotes now, some people disagree. Could you all help me find the correct usage? Professors explanation inside...
This is what my professor said on the issue:
Other "politically correct" terms are authentic in that they are typically more accurate. Most "deaf" people can hear somewhat and many "blind" people can see to some degree, even if they are legally blind (although I agree that some terms are cringe-worthy, such as "differently abled").
"race" is a particular case, however, since genetically and anthropologically it has no merit whatsoever and has been discredited. Of course, people still use the terms culturally, talking about "Black culture" and so on. Thus, if quoting, simply quote the term used. For example, Martin Luther King Jr. will talk about "Negros" and "the Negro race." We, for our part, talk about African-Americans, Asian-Canadians, Euro-Japanese and so on. If referring to cultural perceptions, put the terms "black" or "white" in quotation marks. That said, NOBODY uses "yellow" anymore, but people from India and Pakistan do refer to themselves as "brown."
This is what my professor said on the issue:
Other "politically correct" terms are authentic in that they are typically more accurate. Most "deaf" people can hear somewhat and many "blind" people can see to some degree, even if they are legally blind (although I agree that some terms are cringe-worthy, such as "differently abled").
"race" is a particular case, however, since genetically and anthropologically it has no merit whatsoever and has been discredited. Of course, people still use the terms culturally, talking about "Black culture" and so on. Thus, if quoting, simply quote the term used. For example, Martin Luther King Jr. will talk about "Negros" and "the Negro race." We, for our part, talk about African-Americans, Asian-Canadians, Euro-Japanese and so on. If referring to cultural perceptions, put the terms "black" or "white" in quotation marks. That said, NOBODY uses "yellow" anymore, but people from India and Pakistan do refer to themselves as "brown."
I think it's important to note that you are not in a predominately English-speaking country (assuming your profile is current) because maybe there's something peculiar about the way English is written in your country. In the US, I have never seen black people call themselves "black" with the written air-quotes. I find that really weird.
Your professor is right for papers written inside his classroom, though. Outside his fiefdom, feel free to join the rest of us? My opinion is that your professor is an "idiot."
(I really hope you see what I did there.)
posted by Houstonian at 3:03 PM on March 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
Your professor is right for papers written inside his classroom, though. Outside his fiefdom, feel free to join the rest of us? My opinion is that your professor is an "idiot."
(I really hope you see what I did there.)
posted by Houstonian at 3:03 PM on March 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
This seems not to be a grammar question to me, but one of etiquette and the scholarly practice of citing. What you are addressing is "scare quotes." Some people really sniff at scare quotes whereas others, such as your professor, seem to think that they function as some sort of safety net. They don't, let me say this first. Note, however, that your professor at least once writes "if quoting", and here does not address scare quotes, but quotation marks in their proper use.
In my practice (humanities, historical musicology), quotation marks are reserved for their exact task, that is, literal quotations of what someone else has said.
Termini technici are italicized, as are certain emphasized words.
Everything else is solved by not giving up at the first effort of formulating something. Subtlety in words is a hard-won quality, and so it should be.
If I nevertheless cannot avoid using a - in some contexts - problematic term, I footnote it on its first occurrence and provide my definition and my context.
posted by Namlit at 3:04 PM on March 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
In my practice (humanities, historical musicology), quotation marks are reserved for their exact task, that is, literal quotations of what someone else has said.
Termini technici are italicized, as are certain emphasized words.
Everything else is solved by not giving up at the first effort of formulating something. Subtlety in words is a hard-won quality, and so it should be.
If I nevertheless cannot avoid using a - in some contexts - problematic term, I footnote it on its first occurrence and provide my definition and my context.
posted by Namlit at 3:04 PM on March 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Your professor is way out of line with mainstream American usage and opinions. Do what you have to do for work that you're submitting to him, but I've never seen quotation marks used in that way. More on terminology here and here.
posted by songs about trains at 3:05 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by songs about trains at 3:05 PM on March 10, 2013
I've never heard of this either. Is it possible that your professor is trying to draw a distinction between talking about conceptions of whiteness or blackness and writing "George is black"? I don't think I've ever seen quotes used in the second case, but I could see it happening in the first case. Something like 'Such-and-such in the text locates George as 'black',' which is a statement independent of George's actual race. (Because who gets to be 'white' is entirely dependent on the culture. Many people in the US who are seen as unquestionably white are four or five generations (if that) removed from people who were seen as unquestionably not white, but their skin colour is essentially the same as their ancestors.)
posted by hoyland at 3:09 PM on March 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by hoyland at 3:09 PM on March 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
I have never heard of anything like this, and it certainly is not normal.
It may be worth considering, though... What discipline is your professor in? Could it be that s/he was trying to make a point not about the rules of grammar, exactly, but instead about some idiosyncratic usage that is meant to help highlight some element appropriate for that discipline? I can imagine some topics of inquiry where it'd be really useful to distinguish between the literal color, on one hand, and what color we call people on the other.... But I'm just guessing here. I'm just wondering if there may be a more charitable read on your professor's comments.
posted by meese at 3:10 PM on March 10, 2013
It may be worth considering, though... What discipline is your professor in? Could it be that s/he was trying to make a point not about the rules of grammar, exactly, but instead about some idiosyncratic usage that is meant to help highlight some element appropriate for that discipline? I can imagine some topics of inquiry where it'd be really useful to distinguish between the literal color, on one hand, and what color we call people on the other.... But I'm just guessing here. I'm just wondering if there may be a more charitable read on your professor's comments.
posted by meese at 3:10 PM on March 10, 2013
I agree with others and definitely would not do this; not only is it not standard American practice (can't speak to other countries) but it comes across (at least to me) as if you are not taking the identification and/or characteristics of other groups seriously. Telling people that they are "deaf" or "blind" and thus don't really count as deaf or blind because hey, maybe they can hear really loud noises or see shadows or something is going to be justifiably upsetting to a lot of people. The quotes make it seem like you don't really mean what you're saying or that you don't believe that those categories exist and, when you are talking about tricky issues like race and disabilities, this is probably not what you want to express.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 3:11 PM on March 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 3:11 PM on March 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I just opened to a random page of five academic books on race that happened to be within reach, and all of them used the words black and white without quotation marks. The Wikipedia article on Black people in the United States explains more about these terms and how they came to be used. You'll see that writing "black" or "white" would be totally nonstandard, at least in the United States.
posted by radiomayonnaise at 3:14 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by radiomayonnaise at 3:14 PM on March 10, 2013
In American English this would be deeply weird unless you were specifically trying to make the point that black and white, as races/groups/identities, do not really exist. Even then, there would probably be better ways to accomplish that.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:17 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by DestinationUnknown at 3:17 PM on March 10, 2013
We, for our part, talk about African-Americans, Asian-Canadians, Euro-Japanese and so on.
And he doesn't think these terms require quotes because what, they are "actual characteristics"? They're no more real than "black".
posted by jacalata at 3:17 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
And he doesn't think these terms require quotes because what, they are "actual characteristics"? They're no more real than "black".
posted by jacalata at 3:17 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Meese, the professor was for an English essay class. I was, however, writing on the subject of removing certain racist words from Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. I was simply talking about whites and blacks in North American society and how each cultural group may perceive words differently.
Also, I'm in Canada now, and this was a former Canadian professor. (I'm no longer in Korea).
posted by Knigel at 3:19 PM on March 10, 2013
Also, I'm in Canada now, and this was a former Canadian professor. (I'm no longer in Korea).
posted by Knigel at 3:19 PM on March 10, 2013
Outside the realm of race, mostly because I just wanted to chime in here... As a gay woman, if you referred to me as a "lesbian", I would be offended. The written air quotes just seem as though they are delegitimizing who I am.
posted by AlliKat75 at 3:21 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by AlliKat75 at 3:21 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I took an an African-American history class, and my professor preferred that we use the term "black." So he would not have preferred scare quotes. Term preferences will vary.
From Wikipedia: "Scare quotes are quotation marks placed around a word or phrase to imply that it may not signify its apparent meaning or that it is not necessarily the way the quoting person would express its concept."
air quotes vs. scare quotes
posted by aniola at 3:35 PM on March 10, 2013
From Wikipedia: "Scare quotes are quotation marks placed around a word or phrase to imply that it may not signify its apparent meaning or that it is not necessarily the way the quoting person would express its concept."
air quotes vs. scare quotes
posted by aniola at 3:35 PM on March 10, 2013
No scare quotes, but in American Psychological Style you'll generally see Black and White, capitalized, to show distinction as descriptors of race. I rarely see this outside of academic papers in my area.
posted by bizzyb at 3:47 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by bizzyb at 3:47 PM on March 10, 2013
Based on "deaf", "blind", and "race", on top of all of the examples you're asking about...
I'm pretty sure the only explanation is that your professor was being paid a royalty for each quotation mark he used.
posted by mmoncur at 4:07 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm pretty sure the only explanation is that your professor was being paid a royalty for each quotation mark he used.
posted by mmoncur at 4:07 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, ditto the folks who say no quotation marks..... and I'll go farther: I wouldn't use quotation marks ANYWHERE as in your original post: to use your post as an example, nothing in that post is a quotation, so there is no justification for quotation marks.
Oh sure, sometimes people use them to set off a word or phrase (I do myself!), but for formal writing? Quotation marks are only for quotes.
posted by easily confused at 4:20 PM on March 10, 2013
Oh sure, sometimes people use them to set off a word or phrase (I do myself!), but for formal writing? Quotation marks are only for quotes.
posted by easily confused at 4:20 PM on March 10, 2013
Er, you're basically missing the entire point of what your professor is telling you.
He's not telling you to put words like "black" in quotes--he's telling you to not use the term at all, whether within quotes or out of them, and to use the term "African American" (or similar type terms) instead.
Now as you can tell from the discussion above, this is far from a universal convention, within academia or outside it, but it is a perfectly reasonable style to require in a particular class, and probably reflects requirements in his field or in journals he most often reads or submits to.
Then he goes on to acknowledge the situation, that the whole world does not follow the style guide that he recommends. So when you are quoting other sources, they are quite likely to use other terms. Obviously, when quoting those sources, you use the exact language of the quotation and you place those exact quotes within quotation marks, or set them off as block quotes, or whatever. But that doesn't mean using quotes scare-quote style on one word--it means using entire quotes in the normal way.
So if you're uncomfortable writing "black" with scare quotes every time, my advice is: Don't do that at all. Instead, use terms like African American everywhere in your own writing.
Simply don't use the word black at all. The only place the word black will appear is in actual quotations from other sources. That is what your professor is asking you to do.
Now what I think your professor is either not explaining well, or you are not understanding well, is that ***occasionally*** when referring back to a quotation it is sensible to refer to the exact words of that quotation, and when doing so it often makes sense to put those words in quotation marks, even if it is just a word or two. This is particularly true if the quotation uses a different set of terminology than you are using in your writing. The quotation marks emphasize the connection back to the quotation, and (relevant to the current situation) emphasize that you are using the terms as used by that author and that this is not necessarily your own preferred terminology.
That is the kind of place where you might reasonably use quotation marks around a word or a couple of words, and they are not really scare quotes. But if you are uncomfortable with this kind of usage, again I would just suggest sticking with the (for this class/this field) preferred usage of African American or similar terms and leave it at that.
And boy howdy does this bring back my own pleasant days in academia, writing about things like American musical history. Just try stringing together any sentence about a topic like, oh say, Coon Songs without sticking your foot into deep doo-doo in each of twelve different ways . . .
Not that easy to talk about--but we need to.
posted by flug at 4:25 PM on March 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
He's not telling you to put words like "black" in quotes--he's telling you to not use the term at all, whether within quotes or out of them, and to use the term "African American" (or similar type terms) instead.
Now as you can tell from the discussion above, this is far from a universal convention, within academia or outside it, but it is a perfectly reasonable style to require in a particular class, and probably reflects requirements in his field or in journals he most often reads or submits to.
Then he goes on to acknowledge the situation, that the whole world does not follow the style guide that he recommends. So when you are quoting other sources, they are quite likely to use other terms. Obviously, when quoting those sources, you use the exact language of the quotation and you place those exact quotes within quotation marks, or set them off as block quotes, or whatever. But that doesn't mean using quotes scare-quote style on one word--it means using entire quotes in the normal way.
So if you're uncomfortable writing "black" with scare quotes every time, my advice is: Don't do that at all. Instead, use terms like African American everywhere in your own writing.
Simply don't use the word black at all. The only place the word black will appear is in actual quotations from other sources. That is what your professor is asking you to do.
Now what I think your professor is either not explaining well, or you are not understanding well, is that ***occasionally*** when referring back to a quotation it is sensible to refer to the exact words of that quotation, and when doing so it often makes sense to put those words in quotation marks, even if it is just a word or two. This is particularly true if the quotation uses a different set of terminology than you are using in your writing. The quotation marks emphasize the connection back to the quotation, and (relevant to the current situation) emphasize that you are using the terms as used by that author and that this is not necessarily your own preferred terminology.
That is the kind of place where you might reasonably use quotation marks around a word or a couple of words, and they are not really scare quotes. But if you are uncomfortable with this kind of usage, again I would just suggest sticking with the (for this class/this field) preferred usage of African American or similar terms and leave it at that.
And boy howdy does this bring back my own pleasant days in academia, writing about things like American musical history. Just try stringing together any sentence about a topic like, oh say, Coon Songs without sticking your foot into deep doo-doo in each of twelve different ways . . .
Not that easy to talk about--but we need to.
posted by flug at 4:25 PM on March 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
Other "politically correct" terms are authentic in that they are typically more accurate. Most "deaf" people can hear somewhat and many "blind" people can see to some degree, even if they are legally blind
While I see your professor's point, he was merely trying to be clever and insisting on quotes around "black" and "white" to make a pedagogical point. Beyond that lesson he was trying to impart to his students, that convention is not used in the professional world when it comes to any kind of formal writing.
posted by deanc at 4:26 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
While I see your professor's point, he was merely trying to be clever and insisting on quotes around "black" and "white" to make a pedagogical point. Beyond that lesson he was trying to impart to his students, that convention is not used in the professional world when it comes to any kind of formal writing.
posted by deanc at 4:26 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
The one place I can see this being used is if your class is using technical language, so the quotation marks are being used to denote informal/slang language taken from popular vernacular. For instance, if the consensus in your field is that you use African-American, you might write "black" to indicate that you're taking your language from popular culture or something.
But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
So echoing above comments - do it in class with the professor because it's such a small thing that isn't worth a fight over, but otherwise, he's wrong.
posted by Conspire at 4:27 PM on March 10, 2013
But that doesn't seem to be the case here.
So echoing above comments - do it in class with the professor because it's such a small thing that isn't worth a fight over, but otherwise, he's wrong.
posted by Conspire at 4:27 PM on March 10, 2013
Response by poster: Flug, sorry, but he explicitly stated to use quotes around black. I didn't post that here as it was in my paper edits. Moreover, not all black people are African American. For example, there are many African Canadians as well. His point was to use ethnicity whenever possible; however, if I couldn't, then I should use black with quotes.
posted by Knigel at 4:31 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by Knigel at 4:31 PM on March 10, 2013
I think we'd have to see the paper to know for sure, but I suspect your professor was trying to point at the use-mention distinction, likely because he felt your paper was giving undue credence to "cultural perceptions" and wanted to create more distance.
I agree with the other posters that this is not generally required.
posted by gerryblog at 4:38 PM on March 10, 2013
I agree with the other posters that this is not generally required.
posted by gerryblog at 4:38 PM on March 10, 2013
Other suggestion here - perhaps the reason the professor brought it up was because he found issues with precision in your essay? Now that you bring up your idea that being black is not necessarily homogenous in cultural, but comprised of multiple racial backgrounds, I wonder if the professor found the distinction between black and white in the context of the essay to be too much of a generalization in trying to pinpoint issues of offense given that point? Especially if you've given a definition of blackness in your essay, perhaps his suggestion was to use "black" in order to denote when you're referring to the constructed definition that you've given.
Professors can be weird at communicating, so it can be tough to decode them.
posted by Conspire at 4:38 PM on March 10, 2013
Professors can be weird at communicating, so it can be tough to decode them.
posted by Conspire at 4:38 PM on March 10, 2013
To answer your direct question more directly: Should I write [He is a "black" man] or [He is a black man]?
You are not going to use either of those--for the purposes of this class, you're going to write:
This, I believe, will keep both you and your professor happy.
posted by flug at 4:46 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
You are not going to use either of those--for the purposes of this class, you're going to write:
He is an African-American manFurther on in your paper, you might write:
Steven DeVougas [2008] explores the theme of systemic discrimination in the workplace and how some African-Americans have dealt with it:So in general, you are using the term African-American or similar in your writing, but you use other terms when they are actual direct quotes from other authors, and in those cases you quite appropriately enclose them in quotation marks.I just know I learned early that the only way to combat the systematic unemployment that disproportionately affects all black men, was to acquire skills that would allow me to stand on my own and to perform at such a high level, I would become a “Superspade.” Another thing I know is that if you are “weak” in mind and body, you will not make it. Because being a black man in Corporate America means either living with an acute sense of paranoia or simply not giving a damn.DeVougas's "black man in Corporate America" is yet another example of the archetypal [etc etc--whatever it is you're trying to say that this quotation helps explain.]
This, I believe, will keep both you and your professor happy.
posted by flug at 4:46 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Knigel, this is not a standard usage anywhere that I know of. I say this with confidence as an editor, copy editor, and former teacher of English at the college level, and as someone who reads 500+ books a year.
Can't say why this professor thought that this was a useful thing for their students to do, but it's not something that leading scholars in the field of Black Studies do or have ever done in the US. I'd refer you to the works of bell hooks, Henry Louis Gates, Cornel West, and others.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:47 PM on March 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Can't say why this professor thought that this was a useful thing for their students to do, but it's not something that leading scholars in the field of Black Studies do or have ever done in the US. I'd refer you to the works of bell hooks, Henry Louis Gates, Cornel West, and others.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:47 PM on March 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
There's no reason to put "black" in quotes unless you're quoting someone or have some other specific reason to do it. If you have some objection to the word "black" as a racial term (or you're writing for someone who does), that's fine, but then the solution isn't to use quotation marks — the solution is to stop using the word.
posted by John Cohen at 4:48 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by John Cohen at 4:48 PM on March 10, 2013
Response by poster: Consipre, no, my essay specifically acknowledges issues such as that since it's on political correctness and challenges such as white African Americans. My professor didn't have an issue with my precision. It was pretty clear in our correspondence that it was correct to use quotes around black and white when ethnicity could not be used.
posted by Knigel at 4:50 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by Knigel at 4:50 PM on March 10, 2013
For example, there are many African Canadians as well.
Yes, that's why I referred to "African American or similar", meaning that you should use terms like African Canadian, Euro Japanese, Asian Canadian, or whatever is appropriate for the situation and avoid using terms like black altogether if possible, since that seems to be the preferred usage in this class and field.
With your further clarification, "His point was to use ethnicity whenever possible; however, if I couldn't, then I should use black with quotes" I would agree with others that this is pretty unusual and not something I've ever seen.
However, I would still deal with it by using specific terms like African American or African Canadian wherever possible and by using actual direct quotes from other authors where that makes sense. In other words, as John Cohen says, stop using the word. But if those alternatives fail, you really can't find any other solution, and you really, really need to say "black men," just put black in quotes as your professor suggests.
In areas of grammar and usage, house style trumps common usage and outside style guides. Your professor has defined what the house style is for this class in this situation, so it doesn't really matter what common usage or other style guides have to say, except as a matter of interest to know whether this is a common or unusual sort of usage.
posted by flug at 5:12 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, that's why I referred to "African American or similar", meaning that you should use terms like African Canadian, Euro Japanese, Asian Canadian, or whatever is appropriate for the situation and avoid using terms like black altogether if possible, since that seems to be the preferred usage in this class and field.
With your further clarification, "His point was to use ethnicity whenever possible; however, if I couldn't, then I should use black with quotes" I would agree with others that this is pretty unusual and not something I've ever seen.
However, I would still deal with it by using specific terms like African American or African Canadian wherever possible and by using actual direct quotes from other authors where that makes sense. In other words, as John Cohen says, stop using the word. But if those alternatives fail, you really can't find any other solution, and you really, really need to say "black men," just put black in quotes as your professor suggests.
In areas of grammar and usage, house style trumps common usage and outside style guides. Your professor has defined what the house style is for this class in this situation, so it doesn't really matter what common usage or other style guides have to say, except as a matter of interest to know whether this is a common or unusual sort of usage.
posted by flug at 5:12 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Good heavens, your professor sure has a "thing" for "quotation marks," doesn't he? Anyway, just so you know, this is rather idiosyncratic. I understand that what he is probably trying to do is get across the idea that race is a cultural construct, but he is doing it in an odd way. Like your professor, I am Canadian and I teach English composition and literature, but I would not encourage a student to write this way and I was not encouraged to write this way when I was a student.
Also, there are those who would disagree with your prof's insistence that it's better to use terms like African-American/African-Canadian rather than black (or Black). I wanted to point this out so you can see your prof is making declarations of what is accepted use when there is no consensus on this. I have had students insist that it is offensive to use terms like African-American/African-Canadian and students who insisted it was offensive to use the term Black. Some were people of colour stating their personal preference. There is no consensus.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 5:23 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, there are those who would disagree with your prof's insistence that it's better to use terms like African-American/African-Canadian rather than black (or Black). I wanted to point this out so you can see your prof is making declarations of what is accepted use when there is no consensus on this. I have had students insist that it is offensive to use terms like African-American/African-Canadian and students who insisted it was offensive to use the term Black. Some were people of colour stating their personal preference. There is no consensus.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 5:23 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
writing on the subject of removing certain racist words from Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. I was simply talking about whites and blacks in North American society and how each cultural group may perceive words differently.
not all black people are African American. For example, there are many African Canadians as well.
my essay... on political correctness and challenges such as white African Americans.
Wait, I think we're all going down the wrong path here, and I suspect your professor was not trying to instill in you a global rule that the word "black" should always be in quotes when referring to race. To be clear, the racist word Twain uses in that book is "nigger." You were writing about removing that word from the book and the woes of white African Americans? I'm pretty sure white African Americans are not part of that novel, so I think you need to share explicitly the thesis of your essay and the content of your professor's comment.
posted by Houstonian at 5:44 PM on March 10, 2013
not all black people are African American. For example, there are many African Canadians as well.
my essay... on political correctness and challenges such as white African Americans.
Wait, I think we're all going down the wrong path here, and I suspect your professor was not trying to instill in you a global rule that the word "black" should always be in quotes when referring to race. To be clear, the racist word Twain uses in that book is "nigger." You were writing about removing that word from the book and the woes of white African Americans? I'm pretty sure white African Americans are not part of that novel, so I think you need to share explicitly the thesis of your essay and the content of your professor's comment.
posted by Houstonian at 5:44 PM on March 10, 2013
Response by poster: hurdy gurdy girl, if it is not known if they are African American, then we wouldn't really be able to use African American. We'd have to use Black, right? Is that not consensus? For example, if I'm writing about Blacks in Canada, who may be from many different countries and may not yet be citizens, I'd need to use Black, am I right?
posted by Knigel at 5:47 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Knigel at 5:47 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Houstonian, don't get distracted by what I wrote in my essay. The professor was arguing that quotes should be used when referring to blacks and whites when ethnicity is unknown. I did interpret my professor's advice correctly, and it seems it was wrong. In any case, I don't need to use quotes around racial descriptors unless for the usual gramatical rules.
posted by Knigel at 5:52 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by Knigel at 5:52 PM on March 10, 2013
Knigel, I'm not sure what your question is. Is the paper you're writing for the professor who told you to put quotes around "black" and "white"? If so, then follow that professor's usage.
If you're writing a paper for a different professor, I would not put quotes around "black" and "white", because nobody else does that. The James R. Johnston Chair at Dalhousie, for instance, is an endowed professorship in Black Studies, not "Black" Studies. The professor who currently holds the chair, Afua Cooper, is a leading scholar of Black Canadian culture. If you look at her CV, you'll see the numerous publications in whose titles she uses the word black without quotes. I link to Professor Cooper because she is the Canadian person in this field with whose work I am most familiar.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:54 PM on March 10, 2013
If you're writing a paper for a different professor, I would not put quotes around "black" and "white", because nobody else does that. The James R. Johnston Chair at Dalhousie, for instance, is an endowed professorship in Black Studies, not "Black" Studies. The professor who currently holds the chair, Afua Cooper, is a leading scholar of Black Canadian culture. If you look at her CV, you'll see the numerous publications in whose titles she uses the word black without quotes. I link to Professor Cooper because she is the Canadian person in this field with whose work I am most familiar.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:54 PM on March 10, 2013
Response by poster: Sidhedevll, I'm not writing a paper now. I'm double-checking the advice from a former professor. It's a good thing I did since it seems to be incorrect information. I'm thankful for the advice I got in the thread.
posted by Knigel at 5:59 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by Knigel at 5:59 PM on March 10, 2013
I started responding w. anecdata from my own grad school experience as a counter-example to what your professor is asking, but then I realized it doesn't matter. This is one of those times you do the wrong thing because the boss told you to.
The professor was arguing that quotes should be used when referring to blacks and whites when ethnicity is unknown.
Um, in which case, I'd opt for "[author] who self-identfies as [ethnicity or racial construct]."
posted by smirkette at 5:59 PM on March 10, 2013
The professor was arguing that quotes should be used when referring to blacks and whites when ethnicity is unknown.
Um, in which case, I'd opt for "[author] who self-identfies as [ethnicity or racial construct]."
posted by smirkette at 5:59 PM on March 10, 2013
"white African Americans" is not a useful turn of phrase. Charlize Theron is best described as a white American originally from South Africa, for instance.
The etymology of "African American" as a descriptor to refer to black Americans who are not recent émigrés from the Caribbean or from Africa comes from the idea that, while many white Americans call themselves "German American" or "Italian American" or similar and have voluntary associations, cultural traditions, heritage groups, etc., black Americans who are the descendants of enslaved or indentured people rarely knew which specific nations their ancestors came from. The idea here was that "African American" heritage would be a (perhaps somewhat catchall) ideal to be celebrated in the absence of specific cultural traditions that had been erased. Kwanzaa celebrations are one example of a syncretic "African American" heritage tradition created in the 1960s as part of these efforts.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:03 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
The etymology of "African American" as a descriptor to refer to black Americans who are not recent émigrés from the Caribbean or from Africa comes from the idea that, while many white Americans call themselves "German American" or "Italian American" or similar and have voluntary associations, cultural traditions, heritage groups, etc., black Americans who are the descendants of enslaved or indentured people rarely knew which specific nations their ancestors came from. The idea here was that "African American" heritage would be a (perhaps somewhat catchall) ideal to be celebrated in the absence of specific cultural traditions that had been erased. Kwanzaa celebrations are one example of a syncretic "African American" heritage tradition created in the 1960s as part of these efforts.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:03 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
For example, if I'm writing about Blacks in Canada, who may be from many different countries and may not yet be citizens, I'd need to use Black, am I right?
Citizenship isn't really the determiner of nationality, though. Lack of Canadian citizenship doesn't preclude someone from being a Black Canadian (am I right in that 'Black Canadian' is preferred over 'African Canadian' because there's a distinction made between people of African and Caribbean backgrounds?). They can be 'recent black immigrants to Canada' if that's who you're talking about, or 'Black Canadians of immigrant backgrounds' (I'm kind of cringing at 'of immigrant backgrounds'--that's definitely bleed-through from German) or just 'Black Canadians'.
posted by hoyland at 6:05 PM on March 10, 2013
Citizenship isn't really the determiner of nationality, though. Lack of Canadian citizenship doesn't preclude someone from being a Black Canadian (am I right in that 'Black Canadian' is preferred over 'African Canadian' because there's a distinction made between people of African and Caribbean backgrounds?). They can be 'recent black immigrants to Canada' if that's who you're talking about, or 'Black Canadians of immigrant backgrounds' (I'm kind of cringing at 'of immigrant backgrounds'--that's definitely bleed-through from German) or just 'Black Canadians'.
posted by hoyland at 6:05 PM on March 10, 2013
Response by poster: Smirkette, that doesn't work so well for culture and no author. If I'm talking about Blacks in canada during a research paper, there is no way to know specifics. For example, if my thesis is that whites fear blacks in Canadian neighbourhoods, I wouldn't be able to use African Canadian since not all blacks in Canada are Canadian.
posted by Knigel at 6:05 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by Knigel at 6:05 PM on March 10, 2013
Response by poster: Sidhedevil, so a black African who moved to the U.S. and who had not been a part of the enslaved heritage would be an "American originally from South Africa"?
Moreover, a black African with a heritage of slavery who moved to Canada or Britain would still be considered an African American?
Your answer seems a little confusing to me, and I'd like to clarify.
Hoyland, perhaps not citizenship, but there are black tourists in Canada who whites may perceive in some way. If I'm writing a social psychology paper, I'd need to take these tourists into account. I wouldn't simply be able to call all blacks in Canada African Canadian or African American and so on. I think, unless someone could correct me on this, that I'd have to use blacks or Blacks.
posted by Knigel at 6:16 PM on March 10, 2013
Moreover, a black African with a heritage of slavery who moved to Canada or Britain would still be considered an African American?
Your answer seems a little confusing to me, and I'd like to clarify.
Hoyland, perhaps not citizenship, but there are black tourists in Canada who whites may perceive in some way. If I'm writing a social psychology paper, I'd need to take these tourists into account. I wouldn't simply be able to call all blacks in Canada African Canadian or African American and so on. I think, unless someone could correct me on this, that I'd have to use blacks or Blacks.
posted by Knigel at 6:16 PM on March 10, 2013
Knigel, none of your follow-up questions require quotation marks.
If a person was born in, say, Nigeria in 1980 and then moved to, and became a citizen of, the United States, that person is Nigerian American.
If a person is black and moved from some unstated place to Canada, there's no need to assume that they are African American. Who knows if they had American citizenship? They are Canadian, and they are also black (or Black). I'm sure you've noticed that in Canada they are called Black Canadians, with no quote marks.
If there is a person who is black and a tourist in Canada, and you are writing a paper about this tourist (seriously?) in which it is important to specify their race, then their race is black or Black but not "black" or "Black".
I guess these are all subtle things that you pick up after many years of exposure to a language. Are you fairly new to the English language?
posted by Houstonian at 6:40 PM on March 10, 2013
If a person was born in, say, Nigeria in 1980 and then moved to, and became a citizen of, the United States, that person is Nigerian American.
If a person is black and moved from some unstated place to Canada, there's no need to assume that they are African American. Who knows if they had American citizenship? They are Canadian, and they are also black (or Black). I'm sure you've noticed that in Canada they are called Black Canadians, with no quote marks.
If there is a person who is black and a tourist in Canada, and you are writing a paper about this tourist (seriously?) in which it is important to specify their race, then their race is black or Black but not "black" or "Black".
I guess these are all subtle things that you pick up after many years of exposure to a language. Are you fairly new to the English language?
posted by Houstonian at 6:40 PM on March 10, 2013
Knigel: hurdy gurdy girl, if it is not known if they are African American, then we wouldn't really be able to use African American. We'd have to use Black, right? Is that not consensus?
Yes, you're right: if we don't know if someone is African-American we wouldn't be able to use the term African-American. But no, it's not consensus that we'd then use the term Black/black; some people do not prefer that term either. The article I linked cited a poll in which 35% of people said they preferred to be called African-American rather than black (42% said they preferred to be called black, and 13% said they did not have a preference between the two terms).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:44 PM on March 10, 2013
Yes, you're right: if we don't know if someone is African-American we wouldn't be able to use the term African-American. But no, it's not consensus that we'd then use the term Black/black; some people do not prefer that term either. The article I linked cited a poll in which 35% of people said they preferred to be called African-American rather than black (42% said they preferred to be called black, and 13% said they did not have a preference between the two terms).
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:44 PM on March 10, 2013
Mod note: OP, please do not threadsit, thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:58 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 6:58 PM on March 10, 2013
Response by poster: Houstonian, the conversation shifted a little. We're also discussing "black" versus "African American". The quotes around black seems to be resolved.
And no, I'm not new to the language. I also don't think most English speakers have the answers to many of the questions I've asked. There seems to be quite a lot of confusion as to how to label people in research and academia in ways that reduce alienation. I am also serious that research takes into account tourists and non-citizens. I'm surprised that you would think I would be joking about that. Look at it this way: list off all of the blacks in Canada. Are there tourists amongst them? Are they apart of the demographic? If both of these are yes, then the research needs to take them into account. A researcher can't call all blacks in the U.S. "African American" if there are black tourists who are neither African or American. Does that make sense?
posted by Knigel at 7:03 PM on March 10, 2013
And no, I'm not new to the language. I also don't think most English speakers have the answers to many of the questions I've asked. There seems to be quite a lot of confusion as to how to label people in research and academia in ways that reduce alienation. I am also serious that research takes into account tourists and non-citizens. I'm surprised that you would think I would be joking about that. Look at it this way: list off all of the blacks in Canada. Are there tourists amongst them? Are they apart of the demographic? If both of these are yes, then the research needs to take them into account. A researcher can't call all blacks in the U.S. "African American" if there are black tourists who are neither African or American. Does that make sense?
posted by Knigel at 7:03 PM on March 10, 2013
Regardless of actual heritage, black should not be in double quotes. Double quotes are for direct quotations only. Otherwise, your professor is wrong.
posted by goo at 7:14 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by goo at 7:14 PM on March 10, 2013
The issue is that black tourists are a total red herring. If you're a social psychologist, presumably you read papers by other social psychologists and can deduce what the convention is. I'm not a social psychologist. If you talk about black people in Toronto without specifying they're tourists or that you mean to include tourists, I will assume you are talking about people who live in Toronto, regardless of whether they are seen as Canadian or whether they consider themselves Canadian.
posted by hoyland at 7:16 PM on March 10, 2013
posted by hoyland at 7:16 PM on March 10, 2013
For example, if my thesis is that whites fear blacks in Canadian neighbourhoods, I wouldn't be able to use African Canadian since not all blacks in Canada are Canadian.
In this case I would be as specific as possible about what it is that white Canadians fear. People of African descent. People who they perceive to be black Canadians. People with dark skin. People who they perceive to be Nigerian tourists. People who they perceive to be recent immigrants from the Caribbean. Whatever it is, if you were writing about this you would, I assume, have looked into what is going on in the minds of the white people you're writing about. If not, then "Whites/whites have been found to fear Black/blacks" is probably the easiest choice. Not "whites" and "blacks" though, unless it's for that one professor.
Note: I'm not an academic. The above is what I would write in an article for, say, a newspaper or magazine. In my experience the author of an academic paper would go even further in describing very specifically the backgrounds (or perceived backgrounds) of the people involved.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 7:35 PM on March 10, 2013
In this case I would be as specific as possible about what it is that white Canadians fear. People of African descent. People who they perceive to be black Canadians. People with dark skin. People who they perceive to be Nigerian tourists. People who they perceive to be recent immigrants from the Caribbean. Whatever it is, if you were writing about this you would, I assume, have looked into what is going on in the minds of the white people you're writing about. If not, then "Whites/whites have been found to fear Black/blacks" is probably the easiest choice. Not "whites" and "blacks" though, unless it's for that one professor.
Note: I'm not an academic. The above is what I would write in an article for, say, a newspaper or magazine. In my experience the author of an academic paper would go even further in describing very specifically the backgrounds (or perceived backgrounds) of the people involved.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 7:35 PM on March 10, 2013
Best answer: I tend to stay away from terms like "African-American" because, on sight, I have no idea whether someone black is either descended (recently, since technically we are all descended from people in Africa - but, in the past 500 years, say) from people in Africa, or American, but some experiences of black people in western capitalist democracies are similar enough to each other to be worth discussing in general terms. For example, the trip-hop rapper Tricky covered Public Enemy's "Black Steel" on his first album. Tricky's father was a Jamaican immigrant to England; his mother held dual citizenship from Ghana and England. Tricky is black. The author of the lyrics to "Black Steel," Chuck D, was born and raised in Queens and is likely, at lest on his father's side, descended from African slaves brought over to New York when slavery was legal, because his surname is "Ridenhour," a German name, one likely to have been given to his ancestor when emancipated based on that it was his former master's surname. Chuck D is black. Tricky covered the song, which is about a black man being drafted into the US army, presumably because he, a black British man, found it relatable. So his experience as a black man bears enough similarity to Chuck D's to warrant discussion.
Now, I'm guessing about Chuck D's ancestry. I have to, because the fact of slavery meant that for most slaves, genealogy is impossible or highly impractical. That, however, is part of the point; African-American as a term carries with it a set of assumptions about history and race that are not always applicable, and in some cases, nonsensical. Take Tricky again: he is, generationally-speaking, closer to his African roots than Chuck D, simply due to the fact that he is second-generation African. But no one would seriously try to argue that Chuck D doesn't have the right to consider himself of African heritage, or that the African part of his heritage has less of an influence on him than Tricky's has had on him.
Or, take President Obama. He is black. He is second-generation African. He is equally white. But we don't perceive him that way for the most part. And that raises all sorts of issues. A story: about five years ago I performed poems with a jazz band and the trombone player and band leader was a fellow who is mixed-race black and white. I made an "I'm a white nerd" joke one day during rehearsal and my friend was quiet for a moment and then replied "I'm a white nerd too."
The point is: there are no "safe" terms when one is using general nouns about individual human beings. My personal policy is to avoid talking about large groups of people and to avoid making generalizations, and to call people by their names or to describe them (when relevant) by their relationships to me. Only when absolutely necessary do I use nouns that are intended to apply to entire groups, and when I do, I try to use the words that the people I'm describing use for themselves in mixed company. All such words have political histories and carry political connotations, so that means that I have to continually pay attention. In 1960 (before I was born) Martin Luther King Jr's generation used the term "Negro" to refer to themselves, at least in public, in front of white people. By the time I was born, that had shifted. Most of the black people I know, regardless of nationality or ethnicity, seem comfortable with my referring to them as "black." That may change in the future. Mostly, I call people by their names, unless the conversation (like your paper about Huckleberry Finn) requires some general noun.
In such cases, compound nouns are actually preferable: Jim is a black escaped slave, and in the context of the story, all of those facts, his blackness, that he was a slave, and that he escaped play a large role in how he is treated, how his character develops, and how both he and Huck grow morally through the course of the book. When not discussing those things, though, he's Jim.
TL;DR version: favor people's names unless you absolutely have to discuss a group of people. Then favor the term that group tend to use when they're in the company of people in your group. Avoid terms that make assumptions.
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:52 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Now, I'm guessing about Chuck D's ancestry. I have to, because the fact of slavery meant that for most slaves, genealogy is impossible or highly impractical. That, however, is part of the point; African-American as a term carries with it a set of assumptions about history and race that are not always applicable, and in some cases, nonsensical. Take Tricky again: he is, generationally-speaking, closer to his African roots than Chuck D, simply due to the fact that he is second-generation African. But no one would seriously try to argue that Chuck D doesn't have the right to consider himself of African heritage, or that the African part of his heritage has less of an influence on him than Tricky's has had on him.
Or, take President Obama. He is black. He is second-generation African. He is equally white. But we don't perceive him that way for the most part. And that raises all sorts of issues. A story: about five years ago I performed poems with a jazz band and the trombone player and band leader was a fellow who is mixed-race black and white. I made an "I'm a white nerd" joke one day during rehearsal and my friend was quiet for a moment and then replied "I'm a white nerd too."
The point is: there are no "safe" terms when one is using general nouns about individual human beings. My personal policy is to avoid talking about large groups of people and to avoid making generalizations, and to call people by their names or to describe them (when relevant) by their relationships to me. Only when absolutely necessary do I use nouns that are intended to apply to entire groups, and when I do, I try to use the words that the people I'm describing use for themselves in mixed company. All such words have political histories and carry political connotations, so that means that I have to continually pay attention. In 1960 (before I was born) Martin Luther King Jr's generation used the term "Negro" to refer to themselves, at least in public, in front of white people. By the time I was born, that had shifted. Most of the black people I know, regardless of nationality or ethnicity, seem comfortable with my referring to them as "black." That may change in the future. Mostly, I call people by their names, unless the conversation (like your paper about Huckleberry Finn) requires some general noun.
In such cases, compound nouns are actually preferable: Jim is a black escaped slave, and in the context of the story, all of those facts, his blackness, that he was a slave, and that he escaped play a large role in how he is treated, how his character develops, and how both he and Huck grow morally through the course of the book. When not discussing those things, though, he's Jim.
TL;DR version: favor people's names unless you absolutely have to discuss a group of people. Then favor the term that group tend to use when they're in the company of people in your group. Avoid terms that make assumptions.
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:52 PM on March 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Quotations seem to be a way of distancing yourself (not you personally, but the agent doing it) from the whole notion that there's a such thing as race. It strikes me as strange. Saying, "That man is 'black'" reminds me of someone saying it like, "But SHHH, don't say it too loud!" or using air quotes to describe someone's race, or saying it like, "Well, HE thinks he's 'black', but I know he's really [fill in the blank]." It's just confusing and a little off. I know it's academic discourse you're asking about, but the gist just seems the same to me.
In terms of other conventions around writing and race, I know bell hooks and some others used lowercase w in white and uppercase B in black (or Black or.. "Black"..?) for the sake of subversiveness. But that's a whole nother thing entirely.
posted by mermily at 8:52 PM on March 10, 2013
In terms of other conventions around writing and race, I know bell hooks and some others used lowercase w in white and uppercase B in black (or Black or.. "Black"..?) for the sake of subversiveness. But that's a whole nother thing entirely.
posted by mermily at 8:52 PM on March 10, 2013
There seems to be quite a lot of confusion as to how to label people in research and academia in ways that reduce alienation. I am also serious that research takes into account tourists and non-citizens.
No, there isn't. Look, you are going through a very intense academic period in your life where professors are insisting on precision, rigor, and that you back up every claim and assertion. This is going to subject you to a lot of intellectual discipline in your writing. The editing and style decisions you make are going to be limited to the "rules" created for that individual class and that individual professor.
A paper in a sociology journal that discusses social and economic trends within the African American community of, say, Tampa, FL is not going to make special asides to point out that the author is not including tourists in his study.
People with experience in writing and editing in the professional world are going to tell you what their experiences are, which are different than what is required for a professor. A late-night college bull-session where you try to figure out every single category of black person that may be in the United States at any given time and how to precisely and rigorously make statements about particular subsets of them which accurately captures the demographic you're describing while "reducing alienation" is not something we can provide for you, and isn't something that professional writers engage in on a day-to-day basis.
posted by deanc at 9:42 PM on March 10, 2013
No, there isn't. Look, you are going through a very intense academic period in your life where professors are insisting on precision, rigor, and that you back up every claim and assertion. This is going to subject you to a lot of intellectual discipline in your writing. The editing and style decisions you make are going to be limited to the "rules" created for that individual class and that individual professor.
A paper in a sociology journal that discusses social and economic trends within the African American community of, say, Tampa, FL is not going to make special asides to point out that the author is not including tourists in his study.
People with experience in writing and editing in the professional world are going to tell you what their experiences are, which are different than what is required for a professor. A late-night college bull-session where you try to figure out every single category of black person that may be in the United States at any given time and how to precisely and rigorously make statements about particular subsets of them which accurately captures the demographic you're describing while "reducing alienation" is not something we can provide for you, and isn't something that professional writers engage in on a day-to-day basis.
posted by deanc at 9:42 PM on March 10, 2013
OP you have several times referred to "blacks and whites" in your comments in this thread, and I wonder if your professor was referring to your use of black (and indeed white) as a noun rather than an adjective. I would say that using the term "blacks" rather than black people was unnacceptable in an academic context except as a quotation.
posted by featherboa at 12:32 AM on March 11, 2013
posted by featherboa at 12:32 AM on March 11, 2013
Response by poster: To be honest, I think I made a mistake by mentioning my essay. I should have kept this much simpler by asking whether or not quotes ought to be used with racial descriptions. There is a whole lot of assumption and irrelevant hypothesizing about what I could have possibly said. I don't think that's helpful for anyone who comes across the thread later and I've been asked by the mods to not thread sit; therefore, I'm unable to clarify or correct anyone's wild notions.
In the end, it seems that using quotes around black or white is nonstandard. I was given bad advice, and I'm glad I double-checked. Thank you all for the advice. I believe this question has been resolved.
posted by Knigel at 1:25 AM on March 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
In the end, it seems that using quotes around black or white is nonstandard. I was given bad advice, and I'm glad I double-checked. Thank you all for the advice. I believe this question has been resolved.
posted by Knigel at 1:25 AM on March 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
I hope I'm not too late and it's possible this was mentioned upthread, but if it hasn't:
It's also good practice to reserve the words black and white as adjectives, not nouns. There are black people and white people, or Black people and White people, not blacks and whites.
posted by nicodine at 11:13 AM on March 11, 2013
It's also good practice to reserve the words black and white as adjectives, not nouns. There are black people and white people, or Black people and White people, not blacks and whites.
posted by nicodine at 11:13 AM on March 11, 2013
I came here to say exactly what nicodine said above.
Also, you've marked as a "best answer" the post that says that double quotation marks are only for direct quotation (which might imply the use of single quotation marks for what are known as "scare quotes" or, more properly, "scare quotations"). FYI that's certainly not true in all contexts. I am a Canadian academic and English instructor, and double quotation marks are, in my work, completely appropriate when the writer wants to indicate his or her distance from the phrase thus marked. It's the equivalent to "as is sometimes said." Single quotation marks are only appropriate when using nested quotations.
posted by Edna Million at 12:20 PM on March 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, you've marked as a "best answer" the post that says that double quotation marks are only for direct quotation (which might imply the use of single quotation marks for what are known as "scare quotes" or, more properly, "scare quotations"). FYI that's certainly not true in all contexts. I am a Canadian academic and English instructor, and double quotation marks are, in my work, completely appropriate when the writer wants to indicate his or her distance from the phrase thus marked. It's the equivalent to "as is sometimes said." Single quotation marks are only appropriate when using nested quotations.
posted by Edna Million at 12:20 PM on March 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Black may not be the most useful descriptor. African-American, Jamaican-American, Samoan, Sudanese, etc., are more accurate. As with white, Norwegian-American blonde is not the same as Irish. Black Americans instead if blacks, white Canadians, etc.
posted by theora55 at 2:05 PM on March 11, 2013
posted by theora55 at 2:05 PM on March 11, 2013
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