A manager I work with - not MY manager - is....odd.
February 13, 2013 2:59 PM
I work closely with another team and their manager in my job. The manager has started some weird, what feel like, personal attacks on me.
In case you want to skip the long explanation inside, basically the question is how to deal with a manager who is not my manager (but I am expected to work with anyway) and has a very abrasive style which is kind of offensive.
This manager is friends with the big boss and was personally recruited as a friend so there is nil chance of her leaving.
I am on a team that works closely with another team. I am expected to work closely with the manager of the other team, which is fine. She is relatively new and so far has mostly left my team alone.
Today I had a client meeting with a colleague from the other team and this manager decided to sit in on the meeting, which she does sometimes, I assume, to see how her employees work. The meeting was perfect, the client was happy. Not one problem. Afterward, the manager kept us (me and my colleague, not the client) there and started grilling me on an aspect of the client's account. She was asking about what is a common concern with clients, but did not in the meeting and has in fact never come up at all with this particular client. There is a very reasonable and valid response to this concern, which she could have just asked directly (i.e. "how do you respond to people when Issue X comes up?"). That would have been no problem.
Instead, she launched what felt like a personal attack on my work over a process which she clearly did not fully understand. It was so far out of left field that I was stunned. This went on for five minutes in which she put me on the defensive by seeming to suggest I have done something wrong (which I have not). Then she ended by saying - I know what you're thinking, but you need to understand how the client would see this and how it could reflect our relationship. I said - I do understand, I address this issue all the time. This is very common. It's actually not much of an issue but clients don't understand that until I explain the process to them fully. Please don't suggest that I don't get it because I understand perfectly.
My colleague also thought the manager was out of line in the meeting and said she did not think that I did anything wrong or acted inappropriately.
I went to my actual manager afterwards and told him that she had unexpectedly kind of launched what felt like a very personal attack on me in a meeting. I said if there is any problem with my work or performance, I definitely want to hear it, but if she can't constructively tell me, I would like it if she would take it to him - my actual manager - and let him decide. The reason is she has never done my job and doesn't fully understand it, though she thinks she does. He did my job for years and I know he understands. I trust his judgement. He agreed with me that she can come off as condescending, passive-aggressive and rude and said he would talk to her.
When I got out of the meeting with my manager, I saw that she had emailed me and my other colleague in our meeting an article that she said was sent to her by someone and she thought we might find it interesting. It was about challenges faced by people who work in my industry and was bizarre because it was another thing that had not come up in what had been a very good client meeting and was also not the topic that she brought up with me. I literally at this point had no idea what her point was and what she was trying to say. She has never otherwise emailed me.
I don't know what to do because I'm supposed to have a "dotted line" reporting to her. I almost feel like she has a personal vendetta against me for I don't know what reasons as I haven't interacted with her a lot.
She has not been received well by any of the people on her team since she started because they feel she is a micromanager and unwilling to listen to them. I know some people are documenting what they feel is inappropriate behavior.
This is not an isolated incident. She has had interactions with her employees that have shown questionable judgement.
I am a female and I am very cognizant of the uphill battles that female managers can face, especially in my male dominated industry. I like to think that I really try to be fair in my treatment of them and not try to be unfair by not holding them to different standards than I would male managers. I would never say that I have problems working with women, in fact I think I have really good relationships with the other women I work with. I did tell this to my manager as I don't want to make this some sort of a bitchy woman thing (which I have never done or felt in my life).
My question: how do I deal with her in the future if she starts this kind of thing again with me? It's hard for me to articulate what the problem is. I like to think I am very open to criticism and feedback - I've gotten plenty in the past - but I can't tell if she is totally wrong and out of order (what I would like to think and what other people think) or if she is genuinely concerned about something I'm doing. One of my colleagues said that if she does it again I should tell her that is she has a problem with something I'm doing we can set up a meeting with my manager and all three of us can talk about it. I don't want to be combative or belligerent but I also can't tell if she is personally attacking me or if she genuinely does not realize how she is coming off and how offensive it can be to suggest I don't understand a pretty basic part of my job that I've been doing for 10 years.
Fwiw, my manager said he is very happy with me and he thinks I am great at what I do. My formal review is in a few weeks but he gave no indication that there were any problems with my performance.
This manager is friends with the big boss and was personally recruited as a friend so there is nil chance of her leaving.
I am on a team that works closely with another team. I am expected to work closely with the manager of the other team, which is fine. She is relatively new and so far has mostly left my team alone.
Today I had a client meeting with a colleague from the other team and this manager decided to sit in on the meeting, which she does sometimes, I assume, to see how her employees work. The meeting was perfect, the client was happy. Not one problem. Afterward, the manager kept us (me and my colleague, not the client) there and started grilling me on an aspect of the client's account. She was asking about what is a common concern with clients, but did not in the meeting and has in fact never come up at all with this particular client. There is a very reasonable and valid response to this concern, which she could have just asked directly (i.e. "how do you respond to people when Issue X comes up?"). That would have been no problem.
Instead, she launched what felt like a personal attack on my work over a process which she clearly did not fully understand. It was so far out of left field that I was stunned. This went on for five minutes in which she put me on the defensive by seeming to suggest I have done something wrong (which I have not). Then she ended by saying - I know what you're thinking, but you need to understand how the client would see this and how it could reflect our relationship. I said - I do understand, I address this issue all the time. This is very common. It's actually not much of an issue but clients don't understand that until I explain the process to them fully. Please don't suggest that I don't get it because I understand perfectly.
My colleague also thought the manager was out of line in the meeting and said she did not think that I did anything wrong or acted inappropriately.
I went to my actual manager afterwards and told him that she had unexpectedly kind of launched what felt like a very personal attack on me in a meeting. I said if there is any problem with my work or performance, I definitely want to hear it, but if she can't constructively tell me, I would like it if she would take it to him - my actual manager - and let him decide. The reason is she has never done my job and doesn't fully understand it, though she thinks she does. He did my job for years and I know he understands. I trust his judgement. He agreed with me that she can come off as condescending, passive-aggressive and rude and said he would talk to her.
When I got out of the meeting with my manager, I saw that she had emailed me and my other colleague in our meeting an article that she said was sent to her by someone and she thought we might find it interesting. It was about challenges faced by people who work in my industry and was bizarre because it was another thing that had not come up in what had been a very good client meeting and was also not the topic that she brought up with me. I literally at this point had no idea what her point was and what she was trying to say. She has never otherwise emailed me.
I don't know what to do because I'm supposed to have a "dotted line" reporting to her. I almost feel like she has a personal vendetta against me for I don't know what reasons as I haven't interacted with her a lot.
She has not been received well by any of the people on her team since she started because they feel she is a micromanager and unwilling to listen to them. I know some people are documenting what they feel is inappropriate behavior.
This is not an isolated incident. She has had interactions with her employees that have shown questionable judgement.
I am a female and I am very cognizant of the uphill battles that female managers can face, especially in my male dominated industry. I like to think that I really try to be fair in my treatment of them and not try to be unfair by not holding them to different standards than I would male managers. I would never say that I have problems working with women, in fact I think I have really good relationships with the other women I work with. I did tell this to my manager as I don't want to make this some sort of a bitchy woman thing (which I have never done or felt in my life).
My question: how do I deal with her in the future if she starts this kind of thing again with me? It's hard for me to articulate what the problem is. I like to think I am very open to criticism and feedback - I've gotten plenty in the past - but I can't tell if she is totally wrong and out of order (what I would like to think and what other people think) or if she is genuinely concerned about something I'm doing. One of my colleagues said that if she does it again I should tell her that is she has a problem with something I'm doing we can set up a meeting with my manager and all three of us can talk about it. I don't want to be combative or belligerent but I also can't tell if she is personally attacking me or if she genuinely does not realize how she is coming off and how offensive it can be to suggest I don't understand a pretty basic part of my job that I've been doing for 10 years.
Fwiw, my manager said he is very happy with me and he thinks I am great at what I do. My formal review is in a few weeks but he gave no indication that there were any problems with my performance.
She has not been received well by any of the people on her team since she started because they feel she is a micromanager and unwilling to listen to them. I know some people are documenting what they feel is inappropriate behavior.
This, right here, is the point that should reassure you that this isn't about you. Let me repeat that - this isn't about you. Because as you yourself have told us, a lot of other people feel she is a micromanager and that they're already documenting inappropriate behavior on your part.
So that is the first thing you should start telling yourself if she launches into an attack -- that this isn't about you, this is about her.
It's hard for me to articulate what the problem is.
But you did - she's a micromanager who is lashing out at everyone. that's a legitimate problem, and it is not your problem.
If it helps to calm you down in the heat of the moment if she goes after you again - a friend once had some very good advice when I was dealing with a real diva prima-donna actress: "The reason prima-donnas are like that is because deep down, they are really insecure." I bet this manager is scared to be the new kid on the block and is trying to act tough because that's the only way she figures she can get respect.
As for what to do - I would have another meeting with your boss and ask how you would like him to handle such future incidents should they happen again. Your boss may want you to be more hands-off ("just lay low and let her blow herself out and then come tell me, and I'LL deal with her") or may want you to say something ("tell her to come and talk to ME if she has a problem with you") or something else. But check in with your boss about how to handle this. And then, do what your boss says. (It's very possible, if your manager is cool, that he's already done that himself anyway.)
But again, in closing - this is almost definitely not about you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:17 PM on February 13, 2013
This, right here, is the point that should reassure you that this isn't about you. Let me repeat that - this isn't about you. Because as you yourself have told us, a lot of other people feel she is a micromanager and that they're already documenting inappropriate behavior on your part.
So that is the first thing you should start telling yourself if she launches into an attack -- that this isn't about you, this is about her.
It's hard for me to articulate what the problem is.
But you did - she's a micromanager who is lashing out at everyone. that's a legitimate problem, and it is not your problem.
If it helps to calm you down in the heat of the moment if she goes after you again - a friend once had some very good advice when I was dealing with a real diva prima-donna actress: "The reason prima-donnas are like that is because deep down, they are really insecure." I bet this manager is scared to be the new kid on the block and is trying to act tough because that's the only way she figures she can get respect.
As for what to do - I would have another meeting with your boss and ask how you would like him to handle such future incidents should they happen again. Your boss may want you to be more hands-off ("just lay low and let her blow herself out and then come tell me, and I'LL deal with her") or may want you to say something ("tell her to come and talk to ME if she has a problem with you") or something else. But check in with your boss about how to handle this. And then, do what your boss says. (It's very possible, if your manager is cool, that he's already done that himself anyway.)
But again, in closing - this is almost definitely not about you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:17 PM on February 13, 2013
What is her exact position? My very broad response would be to try to fall back on company policy or guidelines. i.e. she says "you're doing this wrong or why are you doing it this way" then i would say "please refer to company policy X on this" as much & wherever possible. If there are no clear company policies on the matter in question then its up to management to provide these or at least the adequate training to you. In this case you can proceed to ask her when she (& management) will make that specific guideline or training available, i.e. make it managements issue to pursue.
posted by Under the Sea at 3:17 PM on February 13, 2013
posted by Under the Sea at 3:17 PM on February 13, 2013
Treat her like any idiot: minimal interaction, everything in writing, ask for clarification on anything shady and cc your boss always see if you can get her off your teams or projects quietly, be bland, be pleasant, DON'T GOSSIP, don't get into arguments, document, document, document...
In other words give her lots of rope but pretend it's for something innocuous and you had no idea she was going to hang anyone with it!
posted by fshgrl at 3:26 PM on February 13, 2013
In other words give her lots of rope but pretend it's for something innocuous and you had no idea she was going to hang anyone with it!
posted by fshgrl at 3:26 PM on February 13, 2013
This might me as much as her going after your manager (and her colleague) as anything else. Not out of of spite - but to show she is driving "change" since she is new. She may think she has a mandate from her friend, the Big Boss, that she does not have.
It's the responsibilty of your manager to set your goals and measure your performance. Not hers. I think xingcat has the right response - pull your manager into because it is not your responsibility to deal with someone higher on the food chain that is disrupting your work.
Your manager should be taking a more proactive role in helping you deal with this situation. I don't think it would hurt if you started documenting things also.
posted by helmutdog at 3:47 PM on February 13, 2013
It's the responsibilty of your manager to set your goals and measure your performance. Not hers. I think xingcat has the right response - pull your manager into because it is not your responsibility to deal with someone higher on the food chain that is disrupting your work.
Your manager should be taking a more proactive role in helping you deal with this situation. I don't think it would hurt if you started documenting things also.
posted by helmutdog at 3:47 PM on February 13, 2013
I'd want that dotted line relationship clarified if I were you- people like that can suck up an enormous amount of time with nothing to show for it.
Make sure it's very clearly documented what types of functions you will be doing for her and if possible an estimated weekly time percentage for those tasks. Get it in writing, even if it's just an email from your manager confirming your understanding.
posted by winna at 3:50 PM on February 13, 2013
Make sure it's very clearly documented what types of functions you will be doing for her and if possible an estimated weekly time percentage for those tasks. Get it in writing, even if it's just an email from your manager confirming your understanding.
posted by winna at 3:50 PM on February 13, 2013
I don't think you should blow off her unwelcome attention, because she is very well connected. In your example, I would have let her run on for a while, and then press her for specifics.
Her: you should be very aware of this problem that comes up with our customers... Blah blah blah.
You: how specifically does this apply to the meeting we just had?
Her: Well, this time it was fine, but you need to be prepared for blah, blah, blah.
You: I have a very complete, well rehearsed reply when this happens. Here's how we handle that.
Her: Well, you need to add xxx to your response.
You: I'll run that by my manager. Thank you for your input.
Most of the time, if you keep pressing for details, these folks will wind down and usually grudgingly admit that you have it under control. Your goal here would be to facilitate clear communication, so keep asking questions until you are both satisfied that you understand the situation. The problem might be simply that she has bad communication skills, not that she was personally attacking you. And also, during this conversation you can pass on your own knowledge and simultaneously improve your own position and strengthen the team as a whole. Which it sounds as if you did. I think you need to be patient with her at this point, and start a more aggressive response later if she escalates. She could be a powerful ally, or a formidable opponent. Shoot for the first one.
posted by raisingsand at 3:51 PM on February 13, 2013
Her: you should be very aware of this problem that comes up with our customers... Blah blah blah.
You: how specifically does this apply to the meeting we just had?
Her: Well, this time it was fine, but you need to be prepared for blah, blah, blah.
You: I have a very complete, well rehearsed reply when this happens. Here's how we handle that.
Her: Well, you need to add xxx to your response.
You: I'll run that by my manager. Thank you for your input.
Most of the time, if you keep pressing for details, these folks will wind down and usually grudgingly admit that you have it under control. Your goal here would be to facilitate clear communication, so keep asking questions until you are both satisfied that you understand the situation. The problem might be simply that she has bad communication skills, not that she was personally attacking you. And also, during this conversation you can pass on your own knowledge and simultaneously improve your own position and strengthen the team as a whole. Which it sounds as if you did. I think you need to be patient with her at this point, and start a more aggressive response later if she escalates. She could be a powerful ally, or a formidable opponent. Shoot for the first one.
posted by raisingsand at 3:51 PM on February 13, 2013
Next time you talk to your manager, focus on the specific ways in which Odd Manager and her questionable judgment impede your ability to do your job. Couch it in terms of your ability to meet goals that your own manager cares about. Let him know it is his problem too.
posted by Wordwoman at 3:52 PM on February 13, 2013
posted by Wordwoman at 3:52 PM on February 13, 2013
I agree with raisingsand here.
You know you are good at your job and are doing things the right way, she doesn't really know how things work.
If she is going to go off again with blablabla about things you think and need to think or the client thinks or whatever, it's actually not actionable or useful in any way, and I would treat it as such without getting upset.
"What do you need? Is there something you would like me to do?"
And see what she says. Can she clarify? Does she want you to take an action and do something? Is there a specific thing you said to the client that should be said differently? If there's no action and nothing specific, that's that. I expect she will be unable to ask for anything concrete here, and if she goes back to talking about changing the way you think, I would inquire again politely if she is asking you to actually do anything differently. If not, I guess it's time to say it was nice to talk to you, I've got to get back to work, have a nice afternoon, etc.
posted by citron at 4:01 PM on February 13, 2013
You know you are good at your job and are doing things the right way, she doesn't really know how things work.
If she is going to go off again with blablabla about things you think and need to think or the client thinks or whatever, it's actually not actionable or useful in any way, and I would treat it as such without getting upset.
"What do you need? Is there something you would like me to do?"
And see what she says. Can she clarify? Does she want you to take an action and do something? Is there a specific thing you said to the client that should be said differently? If there's no action and nothing specific, that's that. I expect she will be unable to ask for anything concrete here, and if she goes back to talking about changing the way you think, I would inquire again politely if she is asking you to actually do anything differently. If not, I guess it's time to say it was nice to talk to you, I've got to get back to work, have a nice afternoon, etc.
posted by citron at 4:01 PM on February 13, 2013
Definitely clarify with your manager exactly how he wants this input handled.
But, also, keep in mind, probably this agenda she has is not about you. It sounds like she has this idea that [her thing] is very important, so you can engage her and find out what is going on. Either she has been told that the org needs improvements as to X; or she has not been told that, and is fixated on it for her own reasons. It's ok to nod and say "I'm so glad you spotted that. X is indeed very important and our org has [Y process] in place for ensuring it runs smoothly. Has anyone shown you Y process yet? I'd be happy to do that right now."
I completely feel you because it chafes like crazy to have your work be criticized by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, but if she's here to stay, you're better off making an ally of her than making her feel like she needs to whip you into shape.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:02 PM on February 13, 2013
But, also, keep in mind, probably this agenda she has is not about you. It sounds like she has this idea that [her thing] is very important, so you can engage her and find out what is going on. Either she has been told that the org needs improvements as to X; or she has not been told that, and is fixated on it for her own reasons. It's ok to nod and say "I'm so glad you spotted that. X is indeed very important and our org has [Y process] in place for ensuring it runs smoothly. Has anyone shown you Y process yet? I'd be happy to do that right now."
I completely feel you because it chafes like crazy to have your work be criticized by someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, but if she's here to stay, you're better off making an ally of her than making her feel like she needs to whip you into shape.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:02 PM on February 13, 2013
I agree with the people saying this is less about you, and more about someone who has not found their place in the company and is trying to seem relevant and useful. what I do with people who like to tell me my job is happily agree with them, and then demonstrate exactly why I agree: "Oh yes, I completely agree that X is the priority in this situation, and the reason for that is Y. I've found that in certain situations where Q, R comes into play and may change how I handle X, but ultimately blah blah blah... so yes, I think we're on the same page."
don't be mean or snooty about it, just be enthusiastic about how much you agree with the person. (You must be pleasant so they don't suspect any ulterior motive or arrogance, because then they just try to get bossy in different ways.) They will walk away either feeling like they don't have to worry about you, shouldn't worry about you, confused that an underling knows more than they do, happy that an underling knows more than they do, afraid that you'll talk their ear off about nerdy minutiae, or a combination of all of the above.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:48 PM on February 13, 2013
don't be mean or snooty about it, just be enthusiastic about how much you agree with the person. (You must be pleasant so they don't suspect any ulterior motive or arrogance, because then they just try to get bossy in different ways.) They will walk away either feeling like they don't have to worry about you, shouldn't worry about you, confused that an underling knows more than they do, happy that an underling knows more than they do, afraid that you'll talk their ear off about nerdy minutiae, or a combination of all of the above.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:48 PM on February 13, 2013
Honestly, I wouldn't worry about this too much. Keep doing a good job, document everything and handle yourself professionally with her and the likelihood that she will do anything more than annoy you a lot is low.
Yes yes YES to asking for specific action items and explanations based on the current scenario. People who do these sorts of things usually have a lot to say and very little to show for it. When you ask them how their thoughts relate to the specific situation you are in, usually their song and dance quickly unravels and their answers become less and less thoughtful and credible.
Even better...once you start doing this, sometimes these types realize they aren't able to outsmart you and suddenly become incredibly friendly as a means of protecting themselves. That response is always convenient. This is how a total blowhard at my office has responded to me. I completely creamed him in a meeting in front of his boss, subtly and non-confrontationally poking holes in every evasive, non-specific useless statement he was making and now he is nothing but nice to me. Give em rope!
posted by amycup at 9:15 PM on February 13, 2013
Yes yes YES to asking for specific action items and explanations based on the current scenario. People who do these sorts of things usually have a lot to say and very little to show for it. When you ask them how their thoughts relate to the specific situation you are in, usually their song and dance quickly unravels and their answers become less and less thoughtful and credible.
Even better...once you start doing this, sometimes these types realize they aren't able to outsmart you and suddenly become incredibly friendly as a means of protecting themselves. That response is always convenient. This is how a total blowhard at my office has responded to me. I completely creamed him in a meeting in front of his boss, subtly and non-confrontationally poking holes in every evasive, non-specific useless statement he was making and now he is nothing but nice to me. Give em rope!
posted by amycup at 9:15 PM on February 13, 2013
You've gotten good advice on how to involve your manager. As far as how to handle the person-to-person interaction when she corners you, I find that the archly lifted eyebrow can be disproportionately powerful when a bizarre accusation is made. I add a head tilt when I am not sure it'll be seen otherwise. In particular, this works well when the person making the bizarre accusation doesn't ask a question, but just makes a statement. When there's a question directed at me, a request for clarification can be similarly powerful. "I'm not sure I understand your question," rather than a specific follow up, puts the ball entirely in her court, and in many cases it will likely lead her to trying (and failing) to justify why she's going down this path at all.
posted by Capri at 7:49 AM on February 14, 2013
posted by Capri at 7:49 AM on February 14, 2013
Email a summary of the meeting, and the concerns she expressed, with your response. You can call it minutes of the meeting, or a summary to make sure you understand her concerns accurately. Copy your boss, and other staff at the meeting. Eventually, it will be obvious, even to her, that her intervention is counter-productive. Don't be adversarial.
"After client left, X introduced concern about %thing. Great question; unlike many clients, X understands %concern, and has not raised it as an issue. Discussion of %concern followed; we are all agreed that %concern is a thing, and will continue to address it with clients on a case-by-case basis."
and
"Manager, thanks for that interesting video. We have addressed to issue of %issue by %blahblah. Is that what you had in mind?"
If you know you're stuck with Manager, try to help the Manager do a good job. Explain, assist, etc. A friend may be more useful than an irritant.
posted by theora55 at 5:44 AM on February 15, 2013
"After client left, X introduced concern about %thing. Great question; unlike many clients, X understands %concern, and has not raised it as an issue. Discussion of %concern followed; we are all agreed that %concern is a thing, and will continue to address it with clients on a case-by-case basis."
and
"Manager, thanks for that interesting video. We have addressed to issue of %issue by %blahblah. Is that what you had in mind?"
If you know you're stuck with Manager, try to help the Manager do a good job. Explain, assist, etc. A friend may be more useful than an irritant.
posted by theora55 at 5:44 AM on February 15, 2013
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The best way to deal with a micromanager, I've found, is to micro-report assertively. Head her off at the pass, as it were.
posted by xingcat at 3:15 PM on February 13, 2013