Does talking with your friend/partner trained as a therapist suck?
February 9, 2013 9:21 AM   Subscribe

My partner is a new psychotherapist and I think his training is getting in the way of how we communicate. Is there some way to make it clear that I'd like him to knock it off, or Is there some other way I ought to be thinking about this?

My partner is finishing up his psychotherapy training. Over the past years I've noticed slightly annoying behaviours, which might always have been there, but I didn't recognize them as easily as I do now. Rather than answer my question, he deflects with a question about my question, or he reflects my question back to me or questions a particular word choice.

Today we were just having a conversation about something he dreamed about, and I asked it it was in the context of work. He said no, it was something about dancing. I said: oh, so it was social? Rather than confirm yes, or say no, he went all meta on me: it sounds like you're saying that work can't be social.

...which then led to another down the rabbit hole conversation, where I point out that 1. No one said that work isn't social and 2. If you don't agree, tell me what you think like a person I'm having a conversation with, rather than go all 'reflective instrument' on me, like a therapist (interesting that you're using the word 'social').

I'm annoyed because my fear is that this is a protection thing for him....that when we are having difficulties communicating, it isn't just that we have differing communication styles, but that if we are having an argument, he slips out of partner mode and into therapist mode because it feels less dangerous.

But I recognize it could just be a communication thing. I really love precise, clarifying questions. So if someone says it's not work, I say 'social?' to clarify. He finds questions like that really limiting. Any words that 'pin down' conversations seem to feel like I'm stiffling his freedom or something. My optimal question is, "it sounds like that situation at work was really annoying for you, wasn't it?" His optimal question is, "what was that experience like for you?".

While he acknowledges we have different styles, he does not acknowledge the turning into a therapist part. So when I say: It doesn't feel like we are conversing, but you are reflecting, like a therapist. He'll say: therapists converse. Or: it sounds like you're feeling frustrated that we aren't dialoging. The first is not the point, the second I actual would normally like, but it feels like a cop out from what I really want, which is him to tell me whether or not this is true for him. Okay, therapists converse, but is he conversing? Yes, I'm frustrated, but at him, and he's not acknowledging that.

All in all, these conversational roadblocks happen about 10% of the time. The other ninety percent is lovely. I'd just like to know when I'm fighting with my partner that I'm fighting with my partner, and not reflecting with my therapist. I don't know. But the question: Is there some way to get him to understand that there are times that it feels like we're both sitting on the couch, and when things get difficult he sort of disappears and reappears in the therapist's seat? Has this happened to any other people who dated/married trained therapists? Is there something I am not seeing?
posted by It's a Parasox to Human Relations (25 answers total) 12 users marked this as a favorite
 
I wouldn't be too judgemental of him. It sounds like a hard-to-avoid phase for someone going through that kind of intensive training. (I'm reminded of the famous hypochondria that sophomore med students seem required to go through when they're learning about all the diseases.)
posted by spbmp at 9:39 AM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I'm training to be a therapist, and I've specifically asked friends to let me know if it seems like I'm slipping into therapist mode, because I want to be able to still converse like a normal person. It's impossible to not have your training affect the way you think and respond, but I think it's a problem that he's not willing to address that, especially since you've voiced that it frustrates you.
posted by whalebreath at 9:39 AM on February 9, 2013 [8 favorites]


I can only answer your summary question. Does it suck? Just reading about it was annoying. Can't imagine how awful this must be to live with. Is there any way you can ask him to take off the therapist hat when he gets home, because you aren't his patient and won't tolerate being treated like one? Cripes.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:45 AM on February 9, 2013 [16 favorites]


Never had a partner that was training as a therapist... But I like this line from season 1 of American Horror Story. The psychiatrist + psychotherapist husband gave a reductionist response to something the wife said, and the wife retorted "Don't shrink me!"

That might be a good ding-training sort of way to get a conversation back on track.
posted by tel3path at 9:47 AM on February 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


Not a partner, but... my dad was a therapist and social worker specializing in children and families, and yeah, it felt like the therapist mind was always there analyzing what I was saying and doing. It could be extremely annoying, because sometimes it seemed like he'd see pathology where there were only run-of-the-mill negative feelings.

My technique involved rolling my eyes and ignoring him, but this probably does not work if you are not a teenager dealing with a parent.
posted by Andrhia at 9:55 AM on February 9, 2013


I would personally politely remind him the next time he goes on a tangent like that, "dear, I'm your partner and not your patient." Nip it in the bud, he might not even realize he's doing it, and learning to manage his communication styles between different people is something he needs to be conscious of and aware of.
posted by Conspire at 10:05 AM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Best answer: You two sound like you already have some great communication tools. My hat is off to you for that, congrats! That said, I think this is something that will diminish over time, especially with the two of you already so aware and conscious of your communication styles. I have a therapist in the family who had trouble initially distinguishing between his professional and personal roles. It just took some time to taper off, and now he is really clear about not being a therapist with family and friends, but he did need some friendly and loving reminders from time to time.
posted by msali at 10:06 AM on February 9, 2013


Best answer: It doesn't feel like we are conversing, but you are reflecting, like a therapist. He'll say: therapists converse.

This might be just retreading attempts you've already tried, but it's interesting that he claims therapists converse, when actually, what you're saying is that no, when he is in therapist mode, he is not really conversing with you, at least not as himself-the-person. Do you think he's just being "clever" here, or do you think he really doesn't get it? All this gives me two ideas:

I wonder whether he does understand that there is a difference between what you consider "conversing" and what therapists do as a "reflective instrument" -- would it help to have a theoretical discussion about that at a time when things aren't charged? You could help him see what that difference is for you, and then maybe spend some time discussing whether or not he feels his training is changing his conversational style.

Second, I think it might help to switch to straight out I-statements. You are putting forward what I'd call "a theory" about him here. Often theories aren't entirely accurate. (For instance, you say yourself he might've always done this. It might not be his therapist training. People can get pedantic or meta without being therapists.) Your current conversation breaks up at precisely the point where he can't agree with your assumption and either tries to challenge it ("therapists converse") or set that aside and focus on your feelings.

But what is accurate and indisputable is "I feel unheard and frustrated." You could also try describing the behavior and your emotional response: "When you respond with a comment on my words or the structure of my thinking, rather than hearing the underlying meaning, I feel unheard and frustrated." or "When you reply with a comment about me and not by sharing about yourself, I feel frustrated and alone, like we aren't really conversing." You can shorten these to "I'm feeling analyzed and not heard right now," or "I'd like to know more about your thoughts and feelings," or "I don't appreciate comments on my language structure."

I wouldn't shorten it to "it feels like you aren't there now," because if someone is already defended (if you're right that he's using this to protect himself), they're only going to respond to that in a defensive way ("of course I'm 'here,'" or "what does 'being there' even mean?").

The first is not the point, the second I actual would normally like, but it feels like a cop out from what I really want, which is him to tell me whether or not this is true for him. Okay, therapists converse, but is he conversing? Yes, I'm frustrated, but at him, and he's not acknowledging that.

You could try saying, "when you respond by focusing on my words, or with a meta comment on the structure of my language and thinking, rather than to the underlying meaning, I feel unheard and frustrated. What's going on for you when that happens? I'd like to know more about why you reply that way." I don't think you're going to get what you want that way, though -- I think you'll be more successful focusing on what you want and what it looks like for him to be staying in the conversation.
posted by salvia at 10:34 AM on February 9, 2013 [14 favorites]


It probably will pass or lessen as he gets more experienced. I was very often told that when I was in or had just finished doing a trial I tended to "cross-examine" more than discuss. Time, and reminders, helped with that.
posted by uncaken at 10:36 AM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I think an nice, gentle reaction might be to smile at them kindly, pausing until they say something different. You might also just let the conversation drop, start something new.
posted by spbmp at 10:41 AM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


If it were me, I would first get him to understand the problem (because even with all the reflecting, it doesn't sound like he's hearing you on this point). Once he got where I'm coming from, I'd agree on a code word to let him know when he's doing it again who it starting an argument.
posted by cecic at 10:51 AM on February 9, 2013


I dated someone who spoke like this, and he didn't have the excuse that he was training to be a therapist... it really was a deflection/protective maneuver, as well as a way for him to sound 'smart.' It annoyed the cowboy shit out of me. No amount of explaining why this was annoying or hurtful or trying to compromise worked, either -- he just didn't get it.

While he acknowledges we have different styles, he does not acknowledge the turning into a therapist part.
When this happens, does he acknowledge that you are having a communication problem?
posted by sm1tten at 10:56 AM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


I have some baggage here, from knowing so many irritating therapists, but boy can they use this stuff to deflect everything away from themselves so everything turns into about YOU.

The new-agey California twist is to use very vague terms so that you can always claim that you're reading things into them, or you are only hearing your own projections.

It feels very manipulative which irritates the hell out of me, so I tend to be a little short, but maybe you can figure out a nicer way to say "So are you going to address the actual issue, or should I leave? Because dissecting my word choice is some patronizing bullshit."
posted by small_ruminant at 11:25 AM on February 9, 2013 [5 favorites]


Best answer: Can you ask him to talk with his supervising clinician and/or his own therapist (if they are different people) about this? The fact that he's doing this with you doesn't really raise any big flags for me, but his deflection/dismissal/denial does, and if he isn't willing to at least ask his supervisor/therapist if this is a Thing that new therapists do and how to know if he's doing it (and stopping), then that's a flag as well.
posted by rtha at 11:36 AM on February 9, 2013 [4 favorites]


Argh. I know exactly what you mean. My mom was an NLP trainer. It got so irritating that I really can't to this day have a substantial conversation with her without getting irritated.

I think what it is, for me, is that it just sounds so clumsy and non-genuine. "So what I hear you saying is..." yes. Now I want you to actually reply to that, not just repeat what I said.

I think it would be less irritating if I didn't know all these communication ("tricks" | "skills") myself. It's not what she says per se, it's that I recognize it as a technique being used on me. I feel like, what, are you practicing your schtick right now? I'm trying to have a real converation, not play dialog exercise.

The thing is, I've come to realize, is that part of the ("indoctrination" | training) is the idea that that IS effective communication. I mean, if you learn a great way to do something at work, why would you NOT want to apply that to the situations that are important to you personally? If I learn to make a great pizza at work, why would I keep making crappy ones at home?

Because it's irritating, that's why. When I talk to a professional, I want to talk to a professional. When I want to talk to my mom, I don't want to be talking to a professional. I want a more genuine, more emotional connection.

Maybe that's the key. Explain to him that "professional style" comes off as very clinical and detached and it makes you feel bad when what you want is a partner with some emotion invested in the situation. (then, "what are your feelings on what I just said?" naturally.)
posted by ctmf at 11:53 AM on February 9, 2013 [17 favorites]


I'm a new/in training psychotherapist and I can totally relate to both sides of this conundrum. First of all, I think you're right that he needs to primarily be a partner with you and respond in authentic ways. Reflecting and asking more clarifying questions does seem like a defensive strategy (maybe unconscious and not intentional but still super frustrating.)

On the other hand, I know that when partners have said to me and to fellow therapists-in-training that we're acting like a therapist and use that as a reason or excuse for why whatever we said wasn't valid, that is also super frustrating. For me, I became a therapist because lots of the necessary qualities were already inherent in my personality and so when someone calls me out for saying something in a certain way because I'm a therapist, I sometimes feel like, "No, it's just because I'm me!"

That being said, I do think that your partner needs to be willing to think honestly and talk openly about this with you. Ideally, some of the communication techniques, etc. that he's learned in his training can be positive for your relationship. But if he won't show up fully with you and be vulnerable and human and is using his learned skills as a defense or fighting tool, that's gonna drive you nuts.
posted by tacoma1 at 11:57 AM on February 9, 2013 [3 favorites]


(then, "what are your feelings on what I just said?" naturally.)

I have a friend who always says, "Talk more about that." And I can't help but laugh every time. She can't help it, it just slips out. It's very hard for her to leave a useful phrase at the office.
posted by small_ruminant at 12:09 PM on February 9, 2013 [2 favorites]


Best answer: He's causing two problems that you might want to tease apart, even though they're related:

1. He's dodging you. He's not answering your questions directly, and he's maneuvering around your points. Many non-therapists do this, too. They just don't use shrink-speak when they're doing it.

2. He's engaging in habits that annoy you, just as leaving the toilet seat up or chewing with his mouth open might annoy you.

Yes, he's doing the second as a tactic to achieve the goal of the first, but I still think it's worth dealing with these things separately. Because if he quits the shrink-speak, that won't necessarily stop him from the dodging and beating around the bush.

I've often found that it helps to set up rules in which each person gets to be in charge of the conversation for a while: "Let's talk about what I want to talk about. Later we can talk about what you want to talk about." Obviously, this isn't needed (or ideal) when conversation is flowing freely, but it can help when people get stuck.

It avoids the trap of ...

"Can we stick to my point?"

"Why do we always have to talk about your point?"

So you say something like, "These conversations are frustrating me, because we both seem to want different things from them. Can we spend ten minutes talking about what I want to talk about? After that, I promise to spend ten minutes talking about what you want to talk about."

When it's "your turn," if he responds to a question with a question, gently remind him to save it for his turn. (When it's his turn, he can ask "Therapists don't converse?") Right now, he just has to answer your questions without responding with other questions or going offtrack. And you'll do the same for him when it's his turn.

If he doesn't understand your question or doesn't want to answer it, he is allowed to say, "I don't know," "I don't understand the question," or "I don't feel like answering that right now." Which won't be ideal for you, but at least you'll know where you stand, and the conversation won't be murky.

If you say, "Please don't be a therapist. Please converse with me," and he wants to make the point that therapists converse, he can do that when it's his turn. Right now, he needs to say, "Okay, I'll converse with you" or "No, I'd rather not converse with you, right now."

It may be hard for you and him to stick to these rules. If so, couples counseling might help, because then a 3rd party will be responsible for keeping you both on track. You're probably thinking, "More therapy? No thanks! I get enough of that at home." But a good therapist won't let him get away with the shit he's pulling. A good therapist will help him (and you) communicate directly.
posted by grumblebee at 12:17 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Best answer: Your partner is trying to employ "active listening", or "reflective listening" which sounds great in theory, and can be great when someone objective--a mediator, for example--uses the techniques to help those who are too emotionally invested themselves to actually hear each other.

When employed by a partner, though, it is *maddening*! You don't want objectivity and distance from the person you are trying to vent to, converse with or draw out of his shell, you want intimacy. You want him to be emotionally invested!

He needs to be reminded that reflective listening also means paying attention to the emotions behind the words, and responding with empathy and acceptance, not coldness. I don't think there's any maliciousness in what he's doing, by the way, just someone trying to communicate effectively who is totally screwing it up instead. ;)

I'd suggest a signal you can both agree on, something as simple as a specific word or gesture (like the Batsu, or the Timeout ones used by refs in sporting events). You can even just touch him on the leg, and have him do the same with you.

What you don't want to do is roll your eyes, or put your hand in his face, because you don't want to make him feel bad, either. This is all about being constructive! So try to come up with the signal when you aren't angry or upset. It should be something both of you can use, and each of you will respect; if he doesn't see the need for this, then tell him that you feel it will help the two of you to communicate better. That's what he wants, too, right?

When you call for a timeout, you might want to point out that rather than just hearing the words, you need him to hear, and respond to, the emotions behind them.

You could also let him know that you feel like a patient rather than a partner when he removes himself fromt he equation (i.e., "It sounds like you want to X" rather than, "So, do you want me to X with you?"

One I have personally used to good effect is, "I really don't want /didn't intend this to turn into an argument over [little silly thing]. Can we try this again without going there?"

Good luck! If it helps, I've been there, and I totally get the frustration you're feeling!
posted by misha at 1:01 PM on February 9, 2013 [4 favorites]


Yes, this sounds extremely annoying. He might not even realize he is doing this since he has to interact in this way all the time for work. He needs to learn how to turn it off. FYI, the partners of lawyers have the exact same problem in reverse: they have to ask precise questions that pin down facts all day at work so they just automatically fall back on those cross-examination tactics at home. I'm pretty sure this behavior is related to the high divorce rate lawyers experience.
posted by steinwald at 2:24 PM on February 9, 2013 [1 favorite]


Best answer: There are lots of really good comments here --- I'll just add two small points:

1) It seems to me that you're probably diagnosing this right --- that it's mainly a product of his new training. But I think additionally it may be rooted in basic personality differences: after all, there's a reason he chose to go into this line of work. Reading your question I kept being reminded of the Myers-Briggs personality inventory, in particular the distinction between Js and Ps (judgers and perceivers). You sound like a judger -- you like clarity and prefer things to be defined explicitly. He sounds like a perceiver -- he likes to go to the meta level and play with possibilities. If you two are strongly different in this area it can lead to a lot of tension. But the good news is it's entirely resolvable, usually just by naming and understanding it and having code words and so on. If you think that might be part of the issue here, in addition to the learned therapy-speak, maybe look into books like Please Understand Me (I know, terrible title).

(By the way, there are some easy shortcuts to figuring out whether you're a J or a P. Js typically feel better when things are planned and decided in advance: like, what they will do on vacation, whether they will accept that job offer, what they will wear to that wedding. That doesn't mean they're necessarily hyper-organized -- many aren't. They just feel better once a decision has been made. Ps, by contrast, feel hemmed in by decisions, and prefer to keep things open. Neither is good or bad, they're just different.)

2) In talking about this with your partner, I would aim to avoid labelling his behaviour (as therapy-related) and instead stick to describing it in the context of your relationship. (Like, saying "when you don't respond to my question it makes me feel like you don't care about me," not "when you go meta instead of responding to my question it makes me feel like you're playing psychiatrist and don't care about me.") And/or, I'd explicitly say a lot of affirming stuff about his career choice, training, etc., outside of these conversations about your relationship. Because your partner presumably is proud of his career choice and everything he's learning, and you don't want to trigger him into thinking you don't see its value, or are opposed to the choices he's making. Because you're not, right? It is just causing you two trouble in this one area.

Good luck!
posted by Susan PG at 3:27 PM on February 9, 2013


When I was in law school, my fellow students and I naturally tried out all the new language and new ways of thinking we were being taught, which was bonding with each other, and irritating to our spouses. My husband handled me doing this with him by reflecting it back on me. I'd hear what I was saying when he'd shout, "Objection! Asked and answered!" or "Objection! Badgering the witness!" He never pointed out what I was doing directly (or rather he did, and then I'd apply all my lawyerly arguing skills arguing that he was wrong) and it just worked having it made apparent.

(By contrast, when he was in med school, he practiced drawing blood from me. It wasn't nearly as contentious, as I'd given him explicit permission.)
posted by Capri at 6:11 PM on February 9, 2013


Just to add on salvia's comment's above this doesn't have to be framed by the 'theory' that it is caused by his professional work (as likely as it sounds). It can just be an annoying habit that would prefer him not to do!

It is perfectly OK to just say "Rather than answer my question, you deflect with a question about my question, or you reflect my question back to me or question a particular word choice. This is very frustrating for me as I would like to hear your answer" (first sentence taken from your second paragraph).

(My wife often asks me not to talk to her like she is a spreadsheet at my work, spreadsheets are normally the last thing I am thinking of at the time I just tend to think like that, which is why I ended up with a job that is heavy on the spreadsheets....Rather than debate how my behaviour is or is not affected by my job the important point we have both learned is that she would prefer it if I said something different!)
posted by Albondiga at 4:50 AM on February 10, 2013


Rather than confirm yes, or say no, he went all meta on me: it sounds like you're saying that work can't be social.

I guess you could assume that he was talking about himself. You could say, "honey" (or whatever), "It sounds like you think work can't be social." That would be rather bad faith, but basically, you could just assume that if he feels there is a "deeper meaning" to something, it's because he wants to bring it up but somehow the role of therapist has made it feel taboo to him to really be direct (maybe this is part of the role, much like many doctors deny when they are sick?). And thus YOU could act like a therapist to him. "What does it mean that work is social for you?" (And by the way I think it's interesting that this was the very topic he is confused about-- Freudian slip?).

Another thing is maybe you could just say "no, that's not what I meant." Break the cycle. Not being able to gauge whether people are just saying things or "saying" things is an important skill in a relationship, but I think it would be important for a therapist too. To me, it sounds like he needs to learn that just regular conversations are not a cry for help, or imbued with deeper meaning that needs to be unpacked. I don't know what your partner's training involves going through. It may help to find out if HE finds it difficult to stop talking like someone "on duty" at the end of the day.
posted by kettleoffish at 2:52 PM on February 10, 2013


My partner is not a therapist (and has never even seen one) but will do this to me when he is both avoiding the topic in some way, and when I've upset him about something. It can't just be one, it has to be both. It's him distancing himself I think, and also trying to get me to acknowledge something as well (the work/social thing particularly since I am introverted-to-asocial and that bothers him sometimes).
posted by geek anachronism at 4:26 PM on February 10, 2013


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