Ask[Me] the Ethicist.

August 28, 2005 10:29 PM

I agreed to "edit" a (25-page) thesis paper for a friend at another college. When the paper arrived, it was so raw that the whole thing needed to be massively reorganized, not just tweaked for grammar and clarity. It then became clear (through subsequent discussions with her about it) that what she wanted me to do was basically reword much of the language as well (she considers me to be a stronger writer) to make it "sound better."

Where is the line between editing, and something that violates the basic rule about only turning in your "own" work? (I think that since she came up with the ideas and basic premise of the paper, she thinks it will be "hers" no matter what I do; I also know that she has paid people to do this sort of "editing" for her for the last few years at her prestigious undergrad program where she is a straight-A student.) Some of the arguments in this paper are quite weak or even nonsensical; I have refrained from "editing" those--even though she mentioned this would be OK too.

Anticipating followup questions:

-She does not speak English as a foreign language, nor does she have a learning disability. (She does very well in her pre-med classes.)
-Her family is quite wealthy, so it is not a problem for her to pay me (or others) the $10/page or so (you do the math).
-I have already decided I will never, ever do this again--it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
-I am not a student at her college.

posted by anonymous to education (43 comments total)

I think the line comes where you impose any kind of different meaning on the writing. If she has written one (wrong) thing, and you change it to something else, you've gone too far. Correct structure, grammar, whatever, but leave the basic intent and meaning, no matter how silly, intact.

I have sort of faced the same situation, although the student in question did not have the kind of improper intentions yours appears to - he just had great trouble expressing ideas in writing. I edited his drafts on a sentance-by-sentance basis, really - I identified what he was trying to say in each sentance, and modified it as best as I could while keeping the meaning exactly the same. Then I suggested better ways to organise the paper as a whole - identifying inconsistencies in the flow, suggesting where paragraphs might be moved to a more relevant place.

It should be noted, however, that this was in a capacity as a tutor making corrections on a thesis draft, not as someone being paid to "edit" - so all I did was suggest corrections and he had to go make them himself. Are you able to do this, or are you expected just to hand the finished product to the student? Keep those nonsensical arguments nonsensical, and suggest she enrol in a catch up course in writing if she's really having her paper edited for style, rather than content.
posted by Jimbob at 10:58 PM on August 28, 2005

Someone with really poor arguments who is none-the-less getting A's is most likely up to some no good.

Not acting is arguably devaluing the degree for everyone else in that school — which is not very firm, morally. It is also bad for this student if she gets through all her classes on the goodwill of permissive editors, and then ends up in a job which expects sensible and frequent publications or reports.

So there is a problem here that you should address, and I see two ways of addressing it.

First, you could mention it to her. This takes a bit of guts, and of course probably won't work. It will be the most ‘faithful’ to her desires and wishes, however.

Or, you could fire off an anonymous email to the school, suggesting that they look into the matter. Use no accusations, just facts.

Either way, give her a well edited paper that conforms to her argument, since you said you'd do it for her.
posted by clord at 11:22 PM on August 28, 2005

Sounds like you were expecting to do copy editing, while she wants quite a bit more than that.

Copy editing typically entails correcting spelling and punctuation; correcting grammatical and semantic errors; ensuring the typescript adheres to the publisher's house style; adding standardized headers, footers, headlines and so on. All these elements must be addressed before the typesetter can prepare a final proof copy.

The copy editor is also expected to ensure the text flows well, that it makes sense and is fair and accurate, and that it will cause no legal problems for the publisher.
posted by russilwvong at 11:34 PM on August 28, 2005

You could return the paper to her with "comments" or "suggestions" rather than "edits", which might genuinely help her learn how to craft better work going forward. Such comments could include things like "Consider moving this paragraph up/down" or "This sentence seems awkward, are you trying to say X or Y?" or "I think you need another example here to make your case." That's wholly legitimate and a valuable service - it's the whole teaching-to-fish thing.
posted by judith at 11:46 PM on August 28, 2005

What I would do? Give it back to her marked up with the red pen. Make all the typographic notation in the margins etc., but don't correct anything— tell her to change it herself.
You don't become a stronger writer by having others turn your straw into gold.
posted by klangklangston at 12:21 AM on August 29, 2005

Maybe I'm just naive and stuck-up, but as far as I'm concerned the line is drawn right at the starting block -- that is, the idea of somebody else making any direct edits to someone's work in an academic setting feels really wrong. Even if it's 'just' correcting spelling and grammar.

Expressing herself well in writing and using correct English is not just some 'extra' skill that's separate from her 'main' skill of 'coming up with neat ideas'. It's a fundamental part of communication, and a fundamental part of the intelligence and understanding that she's supposed to be demonstrating at college. This isn't some magazine article -- this is a thesis that she's supposed to be judged on.

Comments, yes. But even then only 'you should check your spelling/grammar' or 'I found these paragraphs hard to follow'. No more. The rest is her problem.
posted by chrismear at 12:32 AM on August 29, 2005

Actually, unless you are her TA or professor, I don't think you are obliged to do anything with her argument. That's not editting - that's remedial essay tutoring.

Correct the spelling and punctuation in the file - that's no big deal. But don't change the wording - if you are feeling nice, say that you would be willing to talk to her about her writing, as a tutor. I did that with one of my students recently - talked for an hour or so about argument organisation, and it made a world of difference.

That said, I can't tell you how angry it makes me the idea that someone is getting good marks on other people's skills.
posted by jb at 12:39 AM on August 29, 2005

I would leave the thesis, especially the weak and nonsensical arguments, as it is, but I would edit it to ensure all sentences are grammatically correct. I take the term 'editing' to mean 'copy editing' as russilwvong states above. She wants revision and rewriting. IMHO that's not something for which a pre-med student should be asking.

I also think it's going to boil down to the strength of your spine. It does this girl no good to have her thesis revised, which seems to be what she really wants. She either needs to learn to write or she needs to stop playing the part of a pre-med student. If she washes out, she washes out.

Let's say she completes medical school and residency. Ask yourself if you would be her patient given all that you know about her expectations for an 'editor.' If that level of scholarship is okay with you, go ahead and revise her work. If not, let her learn she's not cut out for medical school. Now.
posted by lambchop1 at 12:41 AM on August 29, 2005

"I think the line comes where you impose any kind of different meaning on the writing."

With assignments, especially for a native English speaker, I think the line comes well before that. A polished prose style will turn a B to an A, I reckon.

I agree with the person who suggested copy editing. I would also discuss the paper and give advice. Beyond that you're doing work she needs to do for herself.

Rewriting her prose amounts to collaborating. Not good if she's being marked on what is ostensibly her work alone.

Finally, you are better off without friends who ask you to cheat for them.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:18 AM on August 29, 2005

Lambchop1: are doctors required to be good writers? I'm fairly certain that writing a thesis is not quite the same as diagnosing and treating a medical problem. I could be wrong, any doctors have experience with this?

I think that Judith and Klangston have the best suggestions. Help her identify her weak spots (after all the director of her thesis would do no less, so it's not unethical) but have her do the work to fix it. If she insists that you do more than that you should do one of two things depending on your personal ethics 1) tell her you want no part in the project, 2) charge her much more, because $10 a page to write a doctoral thesis is chicken feed.
posted by sic at 4:35 AM on August 29, 2005

sic- no, perhaps thesis writing is not in any way similar to diagnosing, but that's not the bigger point. Med school is very competitive. I, for one, would prefer that my physician were intelligent and honest, and frankly, if this woman succeeds on someone else's work, that potentially means that some honest, intelligent student who would have made a better physician will be left behind.
As a registered nurse with 25 years in the ER/Trauma Center setting I have observed many interns, residents, and physicians who had obviously gotten to where they are by cheating and family connections and wealth... and, frankly, have seen much suffering CAUSED by them. This is very frustrating, especially knowing that many competent, compassionate people have been washed out of the program along the way to make room for those brats, who will always use arrogance to cover for incompetence.
So if you write the paper for her, think about that the next time you're in the ER wondering if that physician who has your life in her hands has a clue.
posted by dkippe at 5:39 AM on August 29, 2005

I edited a lot of papers for friends in University, and continue to edit things for friends on occasion. I never directly edited anything - mark-ups only. They had to do their own corrections. For things like spelling and punctuation, those mark-ups would be pretty clear, but for whole sentence rewrites, they got vaguer the more the sentence needed to be rewritten.

In a case like you're describing, with a weak thesis and argument, I'd add comments about that, but not write any changes. Things like 'This paragraph doesn't seem to support your central thesis. You've concluded that X causes Y, but this evidence only suggests that X and Y exist together, with no causative relationship shown.'

The idea is to let them know the essay sucks, and that they need to fix it, without fixing it for them.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:39 AM on August 29, 2005

This is incredibly wrong, especially if she's been doing this type of thing for years. Her better-than-deserved grades will help her beat other job candidates who worked harder in school and have sharper minds, but whose transcripts are worse.
posted by D.C. at 6:03 AM on August 29, 2005

I agree with other posters above: the best approach is to write marginalia. You can provide example edits by writing things such as: "This might be better if you started your sentence this way: '....'" But you cannot actually re-write what she's written. Text you've written cannot be handed in to the professor.

To me, what she's asking you to do would be substantially more appropriate if English were her second language. In that case, it really would be the case that her ideas would be expressible apart from the English words in which they are expressed in the essay. If she is simply a poor writer, however, then it means that her ideas are poor -- since, in effect, ideas in the context of an essay have no existence apart from the text in which they are presented.

I say, red-pen the essay and be up-front about your thoughts: editing the text directly is not going to help her become a better writer.
posted by josh at 6:32 AM on August 29, 2005

I agree with pretty much everyone: do copy-editing if you feel you have to do something, but do not rewrite. And frankly, if it were me, I'd probably send it back and say "You obviously want someone to rewrite your paper for you, and I'm not going to do it, so I'll save us both time and trouble and let you get started looking for someone else right away." I hate to say this, but your friend sounds like a jerk. I wouldn't be so judgmental if it were a one-time thing—anyone can have a scheduling crunch and panic—but if she "has paid people to do this... for her for the last few years," there's no excuse. As i_am_joe's_spleen said:

Finally, you are better off without friends who ask you to cheat for them.
posted by languagehat at 6:46 AM on August 29, 2005

Someone with really poor arguments who is none-the-less getting A's is most likely up to some no good.
That's mighty presumptuous. Science majors don't necessarily need to know how to write worth a crap; our worth is in memorizing endless _fill in something science-related here_. I did quite well in my science classes and I cannot write worth a flip, and I can honestly saying being able write better would not have helped me with my grades.
posted by jmd82 at 6:50 AM on August 29, 2005

Her family is quite wealthy, so it is not a problem for her to pay me (or others) the $10/page or so (you do the math).

In college I was surrounded by students from wealthy families that would hound me to "edit" their papers for them. The couple hundred dollars offered barely made a dent in their monthly allowance money. It really pissed me off, and still does, so understand that when I say...

...let the rich bitch do her own goddamned work. She'll have plenty of opportunities to leverage her wealth in the future to coast along while other smarter, harder-working people like yourself struggle to claw their way up in this world.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:24 AM on August 29, 2005

As someone who used to help people with exactly this in college, I think I understand your situation. I'd mark it up as you would for anyone else -- ("find a better word, this is imprecise;" "Sub/Verb Agreement bad;" "X is colloquial, choose a more academic word;" or for bad spelling etc. If you're feeling generous coach in the margins for better organization.

I've done some serious re-work help with ESL people, and with a friend with a reading/writing associated learning disability, but for people who are perfectly able to write in English but are just not as talented . . . stick to copyediting and from there only go to where you are comfortable.

I don't know how you may feel about confronting El Friend on this, but you may just want to say that you've done what you feel you are ethically able to do to help her, if she asks.

I went to a school with a serious as hell honor code, and I know this sort of thing can make people mightily uncomfortable. Whether you go to school there or not, if you think she's really been cheating, you may or may not feel ethically obligated to report her to her school. If you do feel ethically obligated, go ahead and do it. If she's had people rewrite for her before and she's subject to an honor code, then she's transgressed the code. I hate to bring it up, but coming from that culture, it was the first thing that came to my mind. Good luck.
posted by Medieval Maven at 8:46 AM on August 29, 2005

If you're bothered by an ethical itch, tell your friend. Mark changes you're comfortable with, and stop there.

For the record, though: This is what editors do. It would be nice if most manuscripts simply required a cursory copyedit for house style, but that dream lives with unicorns and rainbows. In real life, most authors are worse writers than you imagine -- and most published books and articles benefit from an editor's polish.

Disclaimer: I put words in other people's mouths for a living. And unless I misunderstand, your friend is asking you to alter language, not content. Chalk it up to professional bias, but I've got no objection. Do the work. Collect the fee. Buy a new watch.
posted by cribcage at 9:10 AM on August 29, 2005

I agree with those who say mark-up and comment as you would if you were tutoring her in writing.

I was taught (in a class on how to teach university students) that you should include at most two or three suggestions for change in your comments. I'm not talking about "this sentence is difficult to follow" type comments, but the bigger picture comments you would write at the end of the paper like "You need to provide more evidence to support this underlying premise." or "The paper is poorly organized" and ideally you should point to specific examples to illustrate your comments: "Some of your arguments are tautologies. For example, on page X, you say...".

The reason you don't want to give more than 2-3 big picture things is that anything more than that is overwhelming and an overwhelmed student will work on nothing. With the 2-3 biggest things they'll at least (if they care) fix 2-3 things, which is better than nothing.

And I wouldn't actually correct the grammar and spelling. I would just flag it. "'Subject verb agreement", "Tense shift" "Usage" etc.

Lambchop1: are doctors required to be good writers? I'm fairly certain that writing a thesis is not quite the same as diagnosing and treating a medical problem. I could be wrong, any doctors have experience with this?

If they're not, then there's no reason she needs to get good grades on writing assignments. She can just explain on her med school application "I did bad in english class cuz I can't wright rite, but docters don't gotta rite NEway, so you should still let me in."
posted by duck at 9:14 AM on August 29, 2005

For the record, though: This is what editors do. It would be nice if most manuscripts simply required a cursory copyedit for house style, but that dream lives with unicorns and rainbows. In real life, most authors are worse writers than you imagine -- and most published books and articles benefit from an editor's polish.

Disclaimer: I put words in other people's mouths for a living. And unless I misunderstand, your friend is asking you to alter language, not content. Chalk it up to professional bias, but I've got no objection. Do the work. Collect the fee. Buy a new watch.

Yes, that is what editors do, but for a class paper she shouldn't have that type of editor. If she were asking him to edit her novel or an article she planned to submit to a magazine or something of that sort, it would be different. Language is one of the things you're being graded on in an academic paper. If you can't use language effectively, hiding that fact by having someone else cover up for you is cheating. Changing that fact by having someone tutor you, is fair game, however, and the mark of a dedicated student who deserves to do well.
posted by duck at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2005

I'm with duck, Whether or not doctors are required to be good writers, they are subjected to a very rigorous weeding out process that starts as undergrads and runs for the better part of a decade, or more. Built into that process is the expectation that they will do well in their undergraduate studies. Doing well would, I'd hope, mean that the work they were graded on was their own.

If it were me, I'd, as others suggest, give written comments like a prof might. I'd rely on questions to point out weak arguments and coax her to improve the structure. The questions might be a bit leading, but I'd never tell her exactly what was wrong or how to fix it. I'd be inclined to skip the copy editing until you had another draft since it sounds like big pieces of it need to be reworked first.

Now, to bitch about those on the premed track. I was a bio major at a small liberal arts college with one of the best undergrad bio programs in the country, and worked for a summer and a winter break in a lab at a big state school. Both experiences left me pretty disgusted with a large subset of those aspiring to be doctors. At the state school, undergrads who'd taken a class from the guy who ran the lab would come in at the end of the quarter to try and beg up their grade a notch, often trying to play the "but i'm premed" card. My boss would have none of it, but it happened every quarter. Students would also retake their GREs and MCATs repeatedly until they'd gotten a decent score. It thrilled me to think of a surgeon cutting on me until he got something right. In my undergrad program things weren't quite as discouraging, but there were a lot of people who would take Ochem at a state school because it was easier.

Over the years, I've become a little more accepting of some of this behavior. I've come to hope that a Doc who took the MCAT multiple times has at least learned the importance of sticking with something until you've really gotten it right, because god knows, diagnosis and treatment isn't always a slam dunk. Still, I'd rather have someone who made their best effort at getting it as right as humanly possible the first go round.
posted by Good Brain at 9:46 AM on August 29, 2005

Wait a second, I'm confused: Is this a graduate thesis or an undergraduate paper? Or are undergraduate papers also referred to as "thesis papers"?
posted by sic at 9:52 AM on August 29, 2005

By the way, I know good doctors who are barely able to scrawl their own names, let alone write a coherent thesis. I don't think that writing a term paper is a skillset that is particularly important to being a good MD.

However, the "unethical" argument that many of you have brought up holds water, but NOT just for pre-med students; any student in any major who is buying good grades is doing something wrong.
posted by sic at 10:00 AM on August 29, 2005

Two questions: 1) how much do you need the money; 2) will you get paid without doing the substantial rewrite she appears to expect? If you try to copy-edit what does cohere, and mark out the bits that don't for her to rewrite, you're going to end up in a back-and-forth where she only coughs up once she's got what she wants.

So, set yourself limits to the red-pen treatment, and be prepared to walk away with bupkis rather than being dragged into ghostwriting.
posted by holgate at 10:02 AM on August 29, 2005

Wait a second, I'm confused: Is this a graduate thesis or an undergraduate paper? Or are undergraduate papers also referred to as "thesis papers"?

Yes.

And, to be clear to the "pre-meds don't need to be good writers" crowd: Look, the poster made it clear that her technical writing ability isn't the issue- she did a half-assed job and didn't even bother to make coherent arguments. That's a REAL problem.
posted by mkultra at 10:39 AM on August 29, 2005

What I would do? Give it back to her marked up with the red pen.

...

I edited a lot of papers for friends in University, and continue to edit things for friends on occasion. I never directly edited anything - mark-ups only.

I definitely agree with these sorts of comments. I very much hope you are not expected to edit her paper directly, because this probably crosses the line into what her school considers plagiarism. Luckily for her, this is the kind of plagiarism that is very seldom caught (though it usually becomes obvious to the instructors on in-class essay exams - but there's nothing that can be done about it).

Return a printout heavily marked up in red pen, and she will have to choose which edits to make, and make them herself, thus learning a little from the process. Writing tutors do this kind of thing all the time (in fact, she'd probably find that her school has a free service to do this if she looked around), and some professors/TAs will do this for rough drafts of their students if they are nice. As others have said, try to hold back in suggesting specific rewordings - concentrate more on why the problems are problems. You certainly could criticize document structure and arguments, and even suggest some repairs - as long as you are not the one making those repairs, it should be fine.

Actually restructuring a piece of a paper is quite a different thing than suggesting it. By suggesting restructurings, you are not saying anything much more than any decent writing tutor would. If you were to actually do them, you would be writing the paper (and if this were to be a published academic paper, would be strong grounds for making you a co-author).

Also, I personally find the arguments that doctors don't need to be able to write well quite inane. Many of the kinds of corrections this person really needs are to argumentation, both in the document structure, and in the content. Perhaps it doesn't matter if a doctor can't turn out a coherent sentence, but if they couldn't produce a coherent argument, I'd be really worried. Learning to write well teaches you this, too.
posted by advil at 10:39 AM on August 29, 2005

Cribcage: That depends on what type of editor you are and what your relationship is with your authors. I do occassional copy editing for the magazine that I work at, and yeah, sometimes I have to totally rework something, but that's usually only when the deadline is riding up and the writing is shit (I have to fill the space and have no other option).
Otherwise, I either mark it up and turn it back (if I'm doing draft editing) or I kill it. Having the option to kill things makes life much, much easier.
posted by klangklangston at 10:58 AM on August 29, 2005

Do the work. Collect the fee. Buy a new watch.

I think that's terrible advice for the situation described in the post. The fact that it's an academic setting puts severe limitations on the amount of rewriting you can do for her, and it's very surprising to see a professional editor encourage you to cross that line.
posted by mediareport at 11:21 AM on August 29, 2005

Academia is not sacred. When divorced from professional reality, it's useless. (That's why most Juilliard graduates are employed in other fields.) Anyone will tell you that you get from it what you put into it. Your education is your own. It's your money.

The poster seems to be describing a situation wherein a fellow student has completed a paper, including a statement of argument complete with specific support, and that student is now seeking professional help to achieve "stronger language." There is a world of difference between substance and style, and the student is clearly seeking the latter. I have no ethical objection to this -- nor would I object if the student subsequently hired an expert designer to layout the paper using Quark.

My answer to the poster was that she shouldn't exceed her own comfort zone. What I didn't add was that, based on her use of quotation marks and her comment about a wealthy family, she sounds spiteful and contemptuous of her "friend," and I'm surprised she's bothering to ask the question. But since she asked, and since this is a discussion site, I don't mind chiming in to say: (1) The search for plagiarism has become a ridiculous witchhunt at many colleges; and (2) In her place, I'd do the work.
posted by cribcage at 7:26 PM on August 29, 2005

Out of curiosity (for those of you in academia): say our delegating pre-med decided to go into academia (and a writing-heavy specialty like public health or psychiatry, etc.) instead of a regular practice, and would have to write articles (and possibly books) on a regular basis: would she still be able to have others do the sort of major reworking described (like grad students, RA's, etc.)?
posted by availablelight at 8:22 PM on August 29, 2005

Ethically you're both well out of the ballpark, and I don't mean a home run, I mean over the foul line.

This is because, once you're out of high school, you're judged on - and supposed to be learning - your ability to communicate your arguments effectively and stylistically, as well as constructing those arguments validly and with proper research and support. In other words, when you are supposed to be handing in your own work, you are supposed to be handing in your own work. Which part of this doesn't make sense in English?

If you are in academics, bear in mind that proceeding and getting found out - even if you're at another institution - could be a career-ender. I was going to type 'academia doesn't tolerate this kind of thing,' but that's actually not true at all. What academia doesn't tolerate is this kind of thing being exposed; when it is, they'll crucify the parties involved as a matter of course.

Otherwise, your choices range from taking the money for a rewrite ("content edit," if that helps you sleep at night), to taking the money for a style edit, to telling her to go elsewhere, to exposing her to her department. Pretty much up to you. If her family's as rich as you seem to imply, she'll get a job when she graduates regardless of her grades, because someone will want to hire her to get close to the family. So in that sense it's somewhat 'academic'. Har.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:37 PM on August 29, 2005

Oh, and if you decide to expose her, do it anonymously and untraceably. In my experience, the kind of people who are contemplating selling their moral high ground for $250 are not politically able to compete on a level playing field with the people who can buy at that price.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:39 PM on August 29, 2005

Academia is not sacred. When divorced from professional reality, it's useless.

Uh, I never said academia is "sacred," nor that it is best "divorced from professional reality." I'll just repeat my surprise that you don't see the difference between rewriting a piece of work for pay in a professional setting and rewriting work that someone else will turn in to a professor as their own. *shrug*

The best advice in this thread has come from folks like judith.
posted by mediareport at 8:51 PM on August 29, 2005

Uh, I never said academia is "sacred," nor that it is best "divorced from professional reality."

I'll answer simply that this is how flamewars begin: one person interpreting a comment to have been directed at him, personally.

Just because you were disparaging me doesn't mean I was replying to you. Since your last comment makes two, I'm tempted to restate using smaller words -- but let's agree to disagree.

I do like the reply that says, "You cannot ethically revise your friend's paper. You should tattle, anonymously and untraceably." It's always amusing to see how various people perceive the high road.
posted by cribcage at 9:12 PM on August 29, 2005

Out of curiosity (for those of you in academia): say our delegating pre-med decided to go into academia (and a writing-heavy specialty like public health or psychiatry, etc.) instead of a regular practice, and would have to write articles (and possibly books) on a regular basis: would she still be able to have others do the sort of major reworking described (like grad students, RA's, etc.)?

Proofreading yes. Suggesting, yes. Rewriting and changing arguments would ethically require that the "editor" become a coauthor.
posted by duck at 9:18 PM on August 29, 2005

And btw, academia need not be sacred for this (rewriting the paper) to be wrong. Lying, which is what this is, would be wrong in any field inside or outside of academia.

When you read a book, you assume that the book has been professionally edited, maybe even professionally ghost-written. An author who puts his name on a book and not the editor's is misleading no one. However, when a paper is handed in for academic credit, it's assumed that the student is solely responsible for the content. For the student to create a situation where this isn't the case, and to allow the impression that it is the case to continue is lying.

Now if the student would like to include in the paper a note explaining the kinds of edits that were done and the name of the person who had done the editing, then that's completely ethical. They'd fail of course, since the assignment was to produce their own work, but it would be ethical.
posted by duck at 9:25 PM on August 29, 2005

Just because you were disparaging me

Oh please; I thought your *advice* was terrible for this situation and said so. I never attacked you personally. If it helps, I think the advice to tattle on the student in this situation is also terrible.
posted by mediareport at 1:13 AM on August 30, 2005

I agree with mediareport, and as an editor myself I'm surprised at the way cribcage is approaching this. I won't say any more because I don't want smaller words hurled in my direction.
posted by languagehat at 5:08 AM on August 30, 2005

Now it's plagiarism; now it's lying. The poster was asked to edit language to reflect a stronger tone. There is a world of difference between being asked to ghostwrite and being asked to animate flatlined prose -- and I can only presume that those who would confuse the two have never practiced either.

I'm done. In the interest of leaving on a constructive note, I'll recommend two books for curious lurkers: The Elements of Style and Language in Thought and Action. The former is often panned, and the latter seems to be considered archaic -- but for my money, both are essential. A well-reasoned thesis can be hobbled by dull writing.
posted by cribcage at 9:02 AM on August 30, 2005

The Elements of Style is quirky and amusing and often misleading or downright wrong; Language in Thought and Action is pretty much useless. You have been warned. But now at least I know where cribcage is coming from.
posted by languagehat at 10:36 AM on August 30, 2005

Hey, cribcage, I didn't suggest the poster take the high road. I'm like the elderly lady who defined the universe as a plate on the back of a turtle standing on a turtle - I'm moral principles all the way down.
posted by ikkyu2 at 8:14 PM on September 1, 2005

would she still be able to have others do the sort of major reworking described (like grad students, RA's, etc.)?
posted by availablelight at 8:22 PM PST on August 29 [!]

As said above - no. If it were found out, it would be a career ender. I know people who thought reusing your own writing was a little icky, as every publication is suposed to be original.

If the other person were listed as an author, no problem. But disciplines differ as to how much they allow multiple author papers. In science and some social sciences, most papers will be multiple author, and the stronger writer might take on the final wording. But in the humanities, most papers are single author - not producing a single author work would look suspicious. And not creditting the other author would be academically dishonest (see above career ending).
posted by jb at 9:27 PM on September 2, 2005