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Should I pursue a casual FWB relationship with this narcissistic but very intellectually interesting and sexy jerk?
December 27, 2012 12:49 PM   Subscribe

Should I pursue a casual FWB relationship with this narcissistic but very intellectually interesting and sexy jerk?

Eight days ago, I messaged this local older guy I found on youtube. He's highly political and verbally combative, but he left some crude sexual comments to his online opponents that somehow turned me on. So I sent him a slightly flirty message while gently disagreeing with one of his points. Since then, we've been having a heavy, ongoing email conversation (40+ emails so far). He's startled me with some of his views (he's a particularly hardcore Zionist who feels no sympathy for the teenagers killed by Anders Breivik, because he thinks they'd have just become pro-Islamist agitators), but for some reason I just had to keep going. Sometimes our exchange was intellectual, sometimes it was flirty and sexually charged, and whenever that would happen, I'd get that hot tingly feeling.

Eventually, we exchanged phone numbers and made tentative plans to meet for coffee (it was me who suggested the latter!). He's called me a couple times, and finally on Christmas we had our first phone conversation. It wasn't much of a conversation. He basically talked my ear off in a very condescending way about his favorite political issues, telling me to watch some more of his videos, with me barely able to get a word in edgewise. That evening he both called and left an email suggesting we go to a movie together. So I finally emailed back, saying I didn't think it would work out, and I'm sure many other women would love to spend time with him. He wrote back a short and bitter reply, with a sarcastic reference to a word I'd playfully called him earlier, and saying he's "as good as gone".

That evening, I felt lost, empty, and awful. I realized I didn't want to cut off the amazing, intense interaction we'd been having. So I called him the next day to say I was sorry (his dad answered). I'm still very sexually and intellectually attracted to him, but I could never see myself getting serious with him, introducing him to friends and family, or anything like that. I wrote him as much, and he says he's "at a loss for words, which doesn't happen often".

All my life I've been an observer, watching my peers have their crazy romantic and sexual lives, while I struggled with my own social skills. If this guy is interested in a casual relationship, should I go ahead and have my very first sexual experiences with him? Or should I keep holding out for the sensitive, caring, humble, funny, yet intellectual guys who may or may not exist for me?
posted by tamagogirl to Human Relations (109 answers total) 10 users marked this as a favorite
 
Ask yourself this: Do you really need more jerks in your life?
posted by Rock Steady at 12:53 PM on December 27, 2012 [47 favorites]


Sexy assholes tend to grow more assholish and less sexy as time goes on. Skip him and have fun with someone who's more likely to treat you well.
posted by xingcat at 12:53 PM on December 27, 2012 [38 favorites]


You are you and nobody can perfectly answer this for you, but you are asking whether you want to give your virginity to someone who has no sympathy for the victims of a mass shooting? Come on, you know you would regret that for the rest of your life. At least, I believe you would.
posted by jbickers at 12:54 PM on December 27, 2012 [15 favorites]


No. No.

Ok, so, you felt "lost, empty, and awful" after he replied bitterly to you, and you barely even know him yet.

How bad do you think it's going to feel when he rejects you or yells at you or disrespects you or treats you horribly after you actually let him into your life?

As a woman who spent two and a half years with an abusive man who sounds similar to the man you describe, I would suggest that you steer clear.

If you don't steer clear, prepare to have your life ruined in ways that you probably can't even imagine.
posted by sockermom at 12:55 PM on December 27, 2012 [28 favorites]


If this guy is interested in a casual relationship, should I go ahead and have my very first sexual experiences with him? Or should I keep holding out for the sensitive, caring, humble, funny, yet intellectual guys who may or may not exist for me?

It's not either/or. Which is good, because this guy is an idiotic, immature mess, and you need to stay the holy hell away from him.

It would probably be good to talk to a therapist if you aren't already. In the meantime, at the very least you should hold out for someone who seems relatively sane. There are a lot of them out there, and I understand that after a long time of feeling lonesome it's hard to keep waiting, but please believe me when I say that being alone is vastly preferable to even continuing to talk to this guy.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:55 PM on December 27, 2012 [5 favorites]


When this goes horribly wrong -- and it will go wrong -- are you a person who is strong enough to go the "go fuck yourself and never talk to me again or there will be consequences" route with this guy? Are you prepared to bring out Consequences, in whatever form, if it turns out he's a creep as well as an asshole (NB: HIGHLY LIKELY)? Basically, are you capable of being as much of a hateful human being as he is to get him off your back, if need be?

If you are not, don't bother, because I can't imagine this guy making people anything but miserable if they're not hot-and-bothered by him.
posted by griphus at 12:56 PM on December 27, 2012 [5 favorites]


Ohhhhh god no. This man will chew you up and spit you out. If you develop feelings for him he will exploit you, and if you pull away he will try to make you feel like garbage in order to soothe his ego. I briefly dated an arrogant narcissist, and I cringe tthinking about him six years later. Just, ugh.

Your last paragraph... was the opposite of a surprise, let's say. If you've never experienced this sort of attraction, it can be hard to think logically, but just... no. You can do a lot better.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:57 PM on December 27, 2012 [11 favorites]


Hrm. If he was someone you found attractive but thought was an arsehole in a combination that gave you the upper hand emotionally, I'd say charge ahead for a tour or two and then ditch him. But it sounds to me like you don't have enough distance here - it seems a lot more like you're having ill-advised feelings.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:57 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


Also: ...should I go ahead and have my very first sexual experiences with him?

That "first" qualifier, do you mean "first with him" or "first ever, with anyone"? Because if it is the latter holy shit no.
posted by griphus at 12:58 PM on December 27, 2012 [78 favorites]


It seems to me the "F" part of FWB may be lacking in this case.
You deserve better.
posted by luckynerd at 12:58 PM on December 27, 2012 [18 favorites]


He's called me a couple times, and finally on Christmas we had our first phone conversation. It wasn't much of a conversation. He basically talked my ear off in a very condescending way about his favorite political issues, telling me to watch some more of his videos, with me barely able to get a word in edgewise.

If he's that self-centered in simple conversation, just imagine how selfish he is in bed.

You can do better than this guy.
posted by jason's_planet at 12:59 PM on December 27, 2012 [42 favorites]


Dude is negging you. Move on.

To be slightly more helpful....it seems like this guy gets off on making girls feel inferior to the point where sex with him seems like an unbelievable gift (it most likely won't be, it will be awful because dudebro has probably never had to actually learn how to satisfy anyone other than himself). Unless you really want that level of self-questioning and angst, steer clear.

To re-iterate: Dude is negging you. Move on.
posted by picklesthezombie at 1:01 PM on December 27, 2012 [15 favorites]


Okay, I know all about sexy assholes, but you have to cut this one out. You haven't even touched him and he's already driving you crazy! If you allow yourself to get any closer to this guy -- not even emotionally, but physically and sexually -- the experience is going to consume you. Trust me on this, cut your losses and cut off contact. This isn't about respect or don't bed assholes or whatever, it's about the fact that you're in over your head before it's even begun.
posted by telegraph at 1:02 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


Yeah, idk, dude. You don't sound emotionally equipped to deal with this kind of guy in a way that will let you come out of this with your happiness intact. Also, re: griphus' above comment, holy fuck if you think this dude should be your FIRST first I cannot stress enough how wrong and bad and terrible and WRONG that decision is.
posted by elizardbits at 1:02 PM on December 27, 2012 [6 favorites]


And I say this as someone who had a delightfully emotionless 4.5 year FWB nonrelationship with a super hot fratboy republican racist solely because the sex was fucking awesome.
posted by elizardbits at 1:03 PM on December 27, 2012 [6 favorites]


I say go for it, if you erect some emotional barriers, and figure out an exit strategy, first.

However, since sex seems like the prime attraction of FWB (rather than emotional intimacy), it would kind of suck if he was a bad lover.
posted by KokuRyu at 1:03 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


This guy is a dick. He doesn't suspend his dickishness when he talks to you. Don't sleep with people who are dicks to you. Hold out for better.

On preview, what griphus and elizardbits said.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 1:03 PM on December 27, 2012 [4 favorites]


For me, the basis for FWB is the "Friends" part. Is this really someone you want to hang out with?
posted by rmd1023 at 1:04 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


Do you maybe have submissive tendencies that you haven't yet explored? If so, and that is what is giving you the excitement feeling in this relationship, there are other people you could get together with that will be much more healthy.
posted by Vaike at 1:05 PM on December 27, 2012 [22 favorites]


I'm not sure that I can say "no" in strong enough terms to appropriately answer this question.
posted by empath at 1:05 PM on December 27, 2012 [20 favorites]


The more I read your question the more I want to like, physically drag you away from this dude. Abrasive angry hectoring racist who is significantly older than you and still lives with his parents? Yeah, he sounds like a real prize.

FLEEEEEE
posted by elizardbits at 1:06 PM on December 27, 2012 [33 favorites]


Forgive me if this is incorrect, but based on your previous questions... it seems like you might have A Thing for evil fascists.

Which is ok, but it would be far better for you to explore this attraction within the confines of a kink community or online roleplay or something, rather than placing your body in the hand of an ACTUAL evil fascist. Because then, you'd be safe and in control and it would all just be a game. Please consider it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:07 PM on December 27, 2012 [20 favorites]


So what you have here is an older guy living with his parents who spends his days screaming at the world on youtube.

Please excuse my harsh language. I know that you are smitten with him but the rest of the world views this guy as a total loser.

Cut him out of your life ASAP. He has nothing, I repeat, nothing to offer you.
posted by jason's_planet at 1:07 PM on December 27, 2012 [18 favorites]


Much written and redacted - simply put, this guy is a massive tool and will be terrible, terrible news for you; a fact which would be readily apparent to you if you weren't thinking with your heartvagina. We all do it, but for glob's sake just let this one go.
posted by ominous_paws at 1:08 PM on December 27, 2012


Also: what elizardbits said
posted by ominous_paws at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2012


This sounds a lot to me like you're discovering certain things about your sexuality such as some submissive traits that you'd like to explore. The most important thing you should know is that's totally normal and you can and will find someone who stimulates you in the same way as this man without being a huge jackass who you don't feel completely comfortable with.

So I'd let this guy go and do some introspection about what this has taught you about yourself. I'll leave you with my favorite Arrested Development quote: "What a fun, sexy time for you."
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2012 [5 favorites]


Oh hell no. I dated a narcissist. (Not for long, I can tell you.) He was lousy in bed, because narcissists are not people who are going to spend any time focusing intensely on you and your happiness. Hold out for a guy who cares about whether you're happy.
posted by sculpin at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


finally on Christmas we had our first phone conversation. It wasn't much of a conversation. He basically talked my ear off in a very condescending way about his favorite political issues, telling me to watch some more of his videos, with me barely able to get a word in edgewise.

FYI there's a really solid chance the sex would be like this too.
posted by Greg Nog at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2012 [30 favorites]


You can't do FWB if you're not F.
posted by inturnaround at 1:10 PM on December 27, 2012


Also also: I will put my life savings down, right here and right now, that this guy will be utterly, devastatingly shit in bed.
posted by ominous_paws at 1:10 PM on December 27, 2012 [26 favorites]


Don't do it. This guy sounds toxic in the extreme and nobody needs that.

And you probably need to ask yourself why you think so little of yourself that any of that sounded hot to start with. You deserve better.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:16 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


Okay, it's obviously not casual if you're already miserable if he doesn't respond how you want him to.

Delete all his contact info from everywhere possible that you can find it, delete all his emails so that you can't obsess over them, and distract yourself as much as possible until the feeling fades. Repeat this as often as you need to, it might not take the first few times.

You don't have to get with the perfect guy but you also don't have to get with this guy.

Also, it is really not okay for him to be making sexually degrading comments at other people during arguments. While it's okay to be turned on, that doesn't make the person a good sexual partner for you and the fact that you're turned on by that is something to explore in fantasy and not with the person who is displaying sexual aggression.
posted by the young rope-rider at 1:18 PM on December 27, 2012 [9 favorites]


Do not have sex with someone you don't trust.
posted by shattersock at 1:19 PM on December 27, 2012 [12 favorites]


Oh, and you should also avoid going to the site where you "met" him.

It will fade, I promise you, even if it seems really hard at first.

And remember: feelings aren't facts. You can feel really strongly for this guy and really miserable if you don't contact him, but that doesn't actually mean anything about the relationship itself, or what he's like, or what you're like. Feelings are important but they are not facts and you don't have to act on them.

Good luck, keep trying.
posted by the young rope-rider at 1:24 PM on December 27, 2012 [8 favorites]


Unfortunately he will more than likely be horrendous in bed, which doesn't leave you with very much, does it?

I would also suggest looking into a D&S relationship - where there are very clear boundaries established - but don't pursue anything like that (or indeed anything at all) with a narcissist.
posted by heyjude at 1:26 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


Well, the worst-case scenario here is that the sex is good. It might be, especially if you find self-centered dudes hot. I have had good sex with some all-out narcissistic abusive jerkfaces. Generally after the first three or four times the good sex wears off, though, and you're just left with a stupid attachment to a jerkface. Waste of time.
posted by the young rope-rider at 1:28 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


he's a particularly hardcore Zionist who feels no sympathy for the teenagers killed by Anders Breivik, because he thinks they'd have just become pro-Islamist agitators

Honestly, would you accept this line of reasoning from any other person in the world? That's reasoning that makes Stalin look like a nice guy - at least he usually waited until people grew up. Someone who will actually tell you that he feels no sympathy for a bunch of kids gunned down in terror and pain? Bad, bad news even if he's just trying to be shocking. (Honestly, you might want to ask yourself what about you draws you to someone who'd say this - does this kind of cruelty attract you because it's transgressive? Because you suffered a lot of cruelty as a child? I mean jesus, what a fucked up thing to say. )

Look, as an anarchist I occasionally find myself foolishly attracted to...well, not right-wingers, but libertarians. Smart, mean ones. There is, shall we say, a frisson. The combativeness! The unlikely pairing if we were in a work of fanfiction! And some of them are cute in that neurotic, overstrained way I find appealing. Also, many of them don't date a lot, and it's instant popularity for me if I show any signs of maybe dating them.

I've always put the brakes on before anything actually happened, but I've observed several friends to hook up with these characters - and it was exactly like you'd expect, a festival of male entitlement, emotional immaturity, shaming and cruelty. This is not what you want.

Seriously, ask yourself why you're so drawn to a guy like this. For me, it's always been about reliving some stuff about cruelty, egg-shell-walking and emotional withholding from my youth - I'm drawn to these awful people out of a fatal unconscious desire to re-experience some genuinely awful times.
posted by Frowner at 1:30 PM on December 27, 2012 [14 favorites]


You may want the interaction, for now. You will not want the guy, like, ever.

just imagine how it will be talking about Breivik after sex.
posted by Namlit at 1:30 PM on December 27, 2012


You know, there are a few people in my life who I find hot yet grating and annoying like this, and the *fantasy* of hot wild nookie with them is awesome, except I know that 1. it wouldn't be anywhere near as awesome in real life, and 2. it would be Not Healthy or Not A Good Thing. So I keep the fantasy of it for those, ahem, moments of quality solo personal time, and don't think about pursuing it in the real world.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:34 PM on December 27, 2012


There's having a thing for jerks, and having a thing with jerks.
posted by holgate at 1:35 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


He basically talked my ear off in a very condescending way about his favorite political issues,

Dude is negging you. Move on.

First of all, don't compare your sex life with the sex life of others. You will end up doing stupid things. People tend to share all the good or scandalous stuff. Not a great barometer. If trying to be racy like your friends (who are probably not all that racy) involves you having casual sex with an outspoken Zionist you met on Youtube who lives with his mom, well then, you may have truly lost your marbles. This is not dating advice. This is "if you were my daughter I would have a fucking heart attack" advice.

However, let me indulge you a little further. There is definitely something hot about meeting a stranger online and forming a connection. I suggest you do a little online dating to see how misleadingly fucked up this dynamic can be. It turns out people can be very attractive online and be utterly insane in real life. The impulsive, emotional side of your brain can be utterly fooled. In fact, when I online date, I do my best not to talk to the other person too much before the date, because I know how much of a connection I can form over email.

One other thing I would point out is maybe the reason he talked your ear off about his issues is because you expressed interest in them, and he could've been really nervous and forgot to be flirtatious. Outside of that I would recommend you picking an extra-safe place to meet and not rushing into things. At the very least you might be able to form a cool friendship.

Oh, and speaking as someone who has experience with FWB relationships - I don't do FWB with complete strangers. That's a place you end up at with someone you trust on some level.
posted by phaedon at 1:36 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


Yeah, looking at your posting history, it seems like you have a thing for bad people. Which is ok, if you handle it right! But this bad person already has made you feel badly, and you deserve to feel Happy about a FWB situation.

I agree with those who say you should look into D/s relationships that are safe and consensual, along with therapy to help you distinguish healthy kinks from relationships with Bad People.
posted by ldthomps at 1:37 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


Your first instinct was right. Now leave him alone. Don't call, block his number and don't go to YouTube.

You're lonely and this guy is completely available. But he's not anything worth having, and he's a complete asshole/dick.

I think that it's time for you to have a chat with a therapist to discover who you are emotionally and sexually. Perhaps you enjoy being submissive, but you want this relationship with someone who will care for you and not blur appropriate boundaries.

A blow-hard, racist, idiot on YouTube ain't the guy.

You cannot get far enough away, fast enough.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:37 PM on December 27, 2012


It's easy to talk shit about oppressed people who were brutally gunned down half a world away when you are safely ensconced in your parent's basement.

He's an AWFUL human being, hon.


I also nth that you should explore your submissive side AND your dominant side in a safe sane way through your local BDSM community. But you need safety tips and a quick FAQ to keep yourself happy and safe.

Might I suggest? Make that next week's question!
posted by jbenben at 1:38 PM on December 27, 2012 [5 favorites]


So I finally emailed back, saying I didn't think it would work out... That evening, I felt lost, empty, and awful.

You have only known this guy for 8 days, and already you have used him to plug up enough of the voids in your life that you feel "lost, empty, and awful" within a few hours of stopping contact with him.

It is a bad idea to use men you don't know to plug up voids in your life rather than filling them yourself in a healthy way. I don't know what your voids are specifically - maybe you are really lonely? Maybe you are really bored and understimulated or underemployed? I don't know, but work on them and make them a lot better FIRST before you become involved with anyone again.

Because if you use other people for this purpose, then if they leave you, or if they are just not available for whatever reason, you will feel horrible and desperate. You might find yourself agreeing to desperate, degrading things you never imagined yourself doing in order to keep the person in your life.

It is bad to do this with guys you don't know who come off as normal. It's a billion times worse to do it with someone who sounds like he has a malignant personality disorder, no empathy and sees others as objects. What would this guy do to you if he had an inkling of how much you rely on him psychologically to feel okay?

Are you female? You know, some people will disagree, but I would say that for at least 80% of women, you become much, much more attached to someone after having sex with them, even if you "agree" in your mind that it is just casual. You are already way too attached to this guy, way more than is normal or healthy. Disengage.
posted by cairdeas at 1:41 PM on December 27, 2012 [28 favorites]


[Folks, maybe just answer the question and quit with the jokey and/or grar answers?]
posted by jessamyn at 1:50 PM on December 27, 2012


The big reason I would advise against this is that these will be your first sexual experiences. I think your first sexual encounters really affect your sexual narrative and subsequent experiences, so it's good to have your first sex with someone...nice, respectful, generous in bed... Save your 'hot-jerk' sex for a bit later down the road.
posted by kitcat at 1:57 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


No.
posted by davejay at 1:59 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


For a FWB deal he would need to be your friend. But he isn't, he's a pretty scary jerk that you are attracted to.

A FWB should be a nice to have deal that you don't mInd doing without. But you do mind. He's already filling an emotional hole for you.

Be honest with yourself. Don't use "FWB" as a catch all phrase for "affair you already know would be a really bad idea so let's pretend it isn't one"
posted by Omnomnom at 2:00 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


Longer: FWB requires two people actually be friends, be cool with and supportive of each other, and a distinct lack of jealousy or poor judgment. When you're done with FWB, do you really want this to be your potential stalker?
posted by davejay at 2:01 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


Ummmm, I would like to point out that living with one's parents doesn't automatically make someone a loser. What if they're staying at his house?

That said, no. No. No. No. Stay away from this sociopath.
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 2:10 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


When I was in school, the teacher responsible for sex-ed was this really old guy with digestive problems. So in our view, not really a reliable source. He kept on telling us: "you don't have to live out your fantasies now, you are young; have sex with each other, use condoms, talk about what you like, be kind, avoid older guys/girls"
I wish I'd followed his advice. He was right.
Find someone like yourself - explore sex and love together
posted by mumimor at 2:14 PM on December 27, 2012 [12 favorites]


Add this one to the spank bank, but otherwise stay FAR AWAY. Explore this fantasy (hot jerk) when you find a sexual partner who will respect you and explore this fantasy with you.
posted by OsoMeaty at 2:20 PM on December 27, 2012


You could find someone who scoffs at you and insults you only when you want him to.
posted by salvia at 2:28 PM on December 27, 2012 [4 favorites]


If this guy is interested in a casual relationship, should I go ahead and have my very first sexual experiences with him? Or should I keep holding out for the sensitive, caring, humble, funny, yet intellectual guys who may or may not exist for me?

(1) With 40+ emails in 8 days and such drama already, this man is not exactly the casual type. Nor are you. I don't think you have the option of a casual relationship here.

(2) If it's this hard to break it off now, how easy do you think it will be after you have sex? After he negs you harder? If he hits you? If he's a secret you've kept and therefore has dirt on you? This is not starting like something you can casually exit.

(3) You can do better. You can scarcely do worse. Your choices are not limited to For-Sure Asshole and Vanishingly Unlikely Perfect Dude. There is a whole rainbow of choices between those two extremes. Don't let this guy fuck you up so you're wasting time and energy recovering from him and missing out on other opportunities.

(4) Along that rainbow of choices there are totally trustworthy dudes who will play rough with you while guarding your heart and whom you can be proud to introduce to your friends and family. Dudes who will play you to your limits but who will learn you well enough not to go beyond them. Freaky-deaky partners who will not make you feel empty, lost, nor awful. Lots of threads here about that.
posted by heatherann at 2:29 PM on December 27, 2012 [10 favorites]


oh yeah, and FWB still includes the potential for an accidental pregnancy, no matter how careful you are. A good rule of thumb is to never have sex with someone you wouldn't want to have (or not have) a baby with.
posted by davejay at 2:29 PM on December 27, 2012


A world of NO. Honestly, this guy sounds like he might be a little off, what with the angry hectoring and racism and assholishness. I would run very far in the opposite direction, very very fast.
posted by sarcasticah at 2:30 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


He showed his true colors in your one phone conversation. You wisely decided to call things off. He turned nasty. You were devastated and desperately crawled back to him.

The emotional hold he/this "relationship" has over you before you've even met him is dangerous. This is going to consume and/or destroy you for a significant amount of time if you pursue it. Please don't do this.
posted by thebazilist at 2:34 PM on December 27, 2012 [6 favorites]


You sound like you're ready to go out there in the world and make some mistakes, so I wanna say yes, but I think you should start with some smaller mistakes than this person.
posted by fleacircus at 2:37 PM on December 27, 2012 [17 favorites]


You met him through a social network? I don't usually think this way, nor do I think it should be a consideration for most relationships... but if anybody else finds out you were involved with him, you're going to find it even harder getting dates after you break up with him. Social proof works both ways.

No need to scorched-earth your sex life before it's begun.
posted by tel3path at 2:38 PM on December 27, 2012


The absolute easiest time for you to get away from this guy is right now. The other easiest times were any time in the previous eight days.
Every step further you take into this relationship will be a giant cliff you have to climb to get back out...its just the way it works. If you think it's hard and you feel bad now this is cake compared to what it's going to be like if you get more emotionally and sexually involved with him.
And yeah, this is no FWB, it's him using you for ego gratification and sex and you allowing yourself to be used for extremely little in return.
If you go ahead with this guy I can pretty much guarantee that you will look back after it's over and not be proud or happy. I'm guessing when logic kicks back in and you look at him objectively you will cringe at what you were considering.
posted by newpotato at 2:42 PM on December 27, 2012 [4 favorites]


NO NO NO NO NO NO

Do not even talk to this inappropriate, hateful person. Christ, what an asshole.
posted by Sidhedevil at 2:44 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


The people who say sex with a narcissist is bad are unimaginative. Sex with a narcissist is the hottest thing since virginal, uninhibited sex with the first person you're in love with.

And it is not worth it. That, they're right about.

It will end, and it will NOT end on your terms. You will be haunted by that sex long after the emotional trauma has faded, which will take years. You can't get that kind of sex from healthy human beings.

However, this dude doesn't sound like a narcissist. He sounds like a loser who lives at home. Seriously? Why are you devaluing yourself like a $2 prostitute for some guy who lives at home?

Buck up. The first love affair will end in tears too, but it will end easier than a relationship with a narcissist and be a better time than a fling with a total loser.
posted by thelastcamel at 2:53 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


OP, you don't know me from Adam and I almost never answer relationship Asks.

But please, please don't get involved with this guy. Just don't. Listen to all of the experienced people who've responded. And if you won't listen to them, still please don't.

Just don't.
posted by vers at 3:05 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


Personally, my motto would be: don't sleep with any man if I tag my askme question about him with "psychopath"
posted by misspony at 3:07 PM on December 27, 2012 [54 favorites]


>>So I finally emailed back, saying I didn't think it would work out, and I'm sure many other women would love to spend time with him

Oh well done you. You have class.

I got to tell you a secret. Sometimes when I'm dating, and I release them back into the wild, or they release me, I get cranky and maudlin because they didn't want me terrible bad. Even though I didn't actually want them. It's kind of like a competitive thing - I must be the awesome catch for everyone. Which is ridiculous because I'm old, fat, weird, and an acquired taste. I blame the media. Or biological competitive nature. Or something - because it's not logical.

You already picked it - he's not right for you, you'd be embarrassed to introduce him to friends and family, and worse still, he has no ability to empathise, which would make him an awful lover.

You can do better.
posted by b33j at 3:37 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


HELL NO. And no. And no again.

Do not kid yourself that you will not get emotionally involved with him. You are already hooked, and if you meet him in person or get physically involved with him it will get worse. It's amazing and intense because he knows he has to overwhelm you at the beginning with what passes for passion, because he can't sustain nice, kind and normal over enough time for you to develop real feelings. This is how abusive, angry, narcissistic men operate.

Cut off all contact, don't even email him to tell him why. Do not interact with him at all. There is no benefit in trying to help him or to explain to him the error of his ways. He feels no sympathy for the victims of a psychotic mass murderer? This isn't just a difference in opinion, this is a severely disturbed world view. Run, don't walk, away from this man and find a less life-threatening option.
posted by yogalemon at 3:45 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


You may want to consider the number of women who have already passed on this guy.
posted by notreally at 3:50 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


I think what's tripping you up is that you had this intense email interaction. I see from one of your previous questions that you are a writer. I can speak from experience that having a strong connection over written communications can be both wildly intoxicating and misleading. In my past, some of the people that I had the most connection with over letters and emails turned out to be people that were not healthy or safe in-person relationships. Or at times a strong intellectual connection made me blind to the shortcomings of a relationship, even if it wasn't "bad." But honestly, you sound like you know what you want and you know it's not this guy. You can get what you want.

Also, if you are interested in having a "crazy and romantic life", an 8-day intense email exchange surely counts as points toward that. You don't have to further engage with him to establish your street cred!
posted by stowaway at 3:52 PM on December 27, 2012 [4 favorites]


When I was fourteen, my mother told me, "They used to say not to have sex with anyone you don't love. I don't know if that's necessary. . . but don't have sex with anyone you don't like."

I didn't always follow that advice, but every time I didn't, I regretted it. Do whatever you have to do to get this guy out of your life, he's an ass and not worth your time or affection.
posted by KathrynT at 3:55 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


I think you need to talk to a doctor.

What you're talking about reads like compulsive self-destructive behavior.

There's an intoxicating rush and sweet drama and great highs and lows -- but I think your brain is giving you some messages about how much you need those things that aren't accurate.


he's a particularly hardcore Zionist who feels no sympathy for the teenagers killed by Anders Breivik, because he thinks they'd have just become pro-Islamist agitators), but for some reason I just had to keep going.


That's not even a little normal -- and feeling like you're compelled to continue to talk to him, I think your brain is telling you untrustworthy things. I think you should talk to a doctor. Even if it's just your own due diligence -- I think you should check this whole thing out with a professional.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:05 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm sorry, that wasn't clear -- when I said 'that's not even a little normal' I was referring to his statement, not your need to keep going. I'm not at all unfamiliar with feeling compelled to keep doing things I know I should stop doing and didn't mean it to come out that way.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 4:10 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


My answer started with "no" and got louder with each sentence more I read.

No _way_
posted by ead at 4:19 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


If it wasn't your first (assuming you mean First Sexual Experience), I would say "probably best not to" but because/if it is, I'm going to join the very loud chorus of NO. It's not just because of his questionable views and personality traits, nor is it because I really think you must hold on for some mythical future guy. And I've had some pretty good sex with some pretty questionable people, so it's not that either. It's almost 100% because you even asked this question about a guy you haven't even met, but who already makes you feel less than positive. Key word here being "already." This is not how you want your sexual flower to be plucked. Ask me how I know.

At the very least, you need to meet the guy and experience some chemistry in person before you go offering up your benefits to a guy who isn't even your friend.

But IMO/E this has "MESSY" written all over it and I'd not do it.
posted by sm1tten at 4:21 PM on December 27, 2012


You don't need to wait for perfect Mr. Sensitive/caring/humble/funny/intellectual, but how about waiting for someone that you don't feel a need to run past the hive mine?

Or, at least wait for someone you can describe without eliciting 70+ ways of saying that he's the very definition of jackass.

Please let us know that you've seen the light.
posted by she's not there at 4:22 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


Should I pursue a casual FWB relationship with this narcissistic but very intellectually interesting and sexy jerk?

Even if I give it to you that "jerk" is adequate to describe this crazy asshole, there are piles and piles of intellectually interesting and sexy guys who are neither narcissists nor, ahem, "jerks." Find one of them.

It occurs to me that if you were a friend or loved one of mine I'd be very worried about why you'd even consider entering a relationship of any kind with a person like this. I hope that's something you'll feel inclined to explore... maybe with a therapist if that's your thing.
posted by cmoj at 4:23 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


The politics thing is a red herring in my opinion, since most people often secretly think people who disagree with them are jerks and/or stupid. What's more telling is that you were "barely able to get a word in edgewise" - in other words, to him, you're just a delivery device for his ego gratification fix. If that turns you on, that's fine, but there are better ways to explore it.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 4:27 PM on December 27, 2012 [7 favorites]


Be honest with yourself -- if you pursue this, how will you feel when it's over? And it will be over -- you have nothing in common, his values are diametrically opposed to yours, and he has nothing healthy to offer you. If you think you can look back, dismiss it, and say "yeah, that was messed up but hot," go for it. If you think you will look back and be filled with self-loathing and shame, then run away now. Those are among the most damaging emotions to take away from sex, and have the potential to hurt you long before this relationship ends.

I've had flings with people I would never want to introduce to my friends and family. Nobody got hurt, everyone walked away intact. Most of all, everyone had fun. Nothing about what you've described sounds fun to me.
posted by snickerdoodle at 4:36 PM on December 27, 2012 [1 favorite]


As others said, please, no :-( It sounds like you are getting a high off of him treating you badly. It seems that you already have the voice of wisdom inside you telling you what the right thing to do was. Telling him it wasn't going to work out was the strong part of you coming out and speaking for itself.

It's really hard to let go of that rush. When I was in high school I had this mad crush on this guy whose main attraction was the way he sort of put me down and the way I felt beholden to him. It was somehow exhilarating. We didn't get very involved and ten years later I am thankful that I dodged a bullet but am sorry I wasted two years of crush energy. You will thank yourself later if you don't go through with this.
posted by mermily at 4:46 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


Hate sex is not the place to start your sex life. It can be very hot but it presents challenges that are really not what you want while you're still learning how to negotiate a sexual relationship and, heck, while you're still learning what you enjoy in sex.
posted by gingerest at 4:50 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


I feel like the sort of interaction that leads to the hot hatefuck is more of a volley of banter crackling with chemistry. What you described sounds nothing like this. It sounds like he turned on the automated tennis ball machine of crazy and you rightly ducked for cover.

Of course you felt weird after rejecting him, you had this very intense interaction and it will always feel weird after something like that. It doesn't mean you made the wrong choice.

Go no contact and move on. As other commenters have pointed out, there are healthier ways to explore what turned you on about this.
posted by AV at 5:00 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


Another No.

If you are having this much difficulty negotiating a conversation online, try to imagine negotiating discussions about birth control, STDs, and simple preference.

A satisfactory FWB will treat you with respect, will hear you when you say "I don't like that," or "I do like that" or "I'm not comfortable doing X" or "I really REALLY want to try this thing...".

You should feel comfortable expressing your needs with your FWB, up to and including "I'm sorry but this night isn't working for me and I'm going home now" and the guy should handle it well.

This guy does not sound like he fits that bill.
posted by bunderful at 5:03 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


"It's fine that those children were murdered, because they probably would have grown up to disagree with my politics" isn't a "politics thing," it's a "completely lacking any sense of compassion or basic human decency thing".

Nobody who would say anything like that, either sincerely or for effect, deserves consideration as a friend or sex partner.
posted by Sidhedevil at 5:18 PM on December 27, 2012 [11 favorites]


Please, no. Trust everyone in this thread, their reasons have all been more or less impeccable.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:12 PM on December 27, 2012


Well, the nearly unanimous response of the hive mind has joined my own instincts (and those of my close family), which have been SCREAMING at me all this time to drop this guy. I should've cut it off as soon as I found out about the whole Breivik thing. And yes, he has responded to my last email suggesting a casual dating relationship. I am going to cut him off without another word. Anything else would just keep this going. So no phone message, no email, nothing.
posted by tamagogirl at 6:26 PM on December 27, 2012 [47 favorites]


Came here to say exactly what griphus said.

...who feels no sympathy for the teenagers killed by Anders Breivik, because he thinks they'd have just become pro-Islamist agitators...

Tedious dickheads whose peacock feathers are built from this kind of cheap-ass contrarian bullshit are a dime a dozen and not worth your time.

So no phone message, no email, nothing.

Perfectly played.

Even so, you will feel more misery as a result of that perfect play. Expect that, have a luxurious wallow in it when it comes, and use it as an opportunity to reflect on the indescribably greater misery you've successfully sidestepped.
posted by flabdablet at 6:45 PM on December 27, 2012 [13 favorites]


Don't forget to auto-route all his emails to the trash.
posted by Pallas Athena at 7:11 PM on December 27, 2012 [2 favorites]


Another very enthusiastic no.
posted by 2oh1 at 7:26 PM on December 27, 2012


I came in here to tell you to have some fun and just go for it, but ew! I have retracted my previous opinion!

It sounds like he'd be just as happy suggesting a casual dating relationship with a brick wall.
posted by lhude sing cuccu at 8:27 PM on December 27, 2012


If you have a kink for narcissistic but very intellectually interesting assholes, then join Mensa International, involve yourself in state politics, or go whole hog and become a graduate student. You might as well be fascinated by a higher class of disaster, real prestigious romantic impossibilities.
posted by TwelveTwo at 8:27 PM on December 27, 2012 [3 favorites]


I don't want to thread-sit, so this will be the last addition to my question. By cutting off all contact with this guy (which I am doing), am I jerking him around a second time after already "dumping" him so recently? Also, he does tend to show up at certain political events I've occasionally gotten involved with. Do I have to stop going to those as well?
posted by tamagogirl at 8:46 PM on December 27, 2012


1. You haven't met and you barely have anything that could be called a relationship, so don't feel even a tiny bit bad.

2. Go to those events if you want to. Talking to a guy and having it not pan out does not mean he gets to 'keep' those events and you have to sacrifice them.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:10 PM on December 27, 2012 [5 favorites]


Don't stop going to your events! If anything, this is another reason NOT to get involved, because when he dumps you horribly (yes, "when") going to them will become SO MUCH MORE AWKWARD.
posted by dekathelon at 9:38 PM on December 27, 2012


Don't worry about jerking him around. I have cut off guys like 4 times and they were better guys than this. It's the way dating and FWB and flirting works--sometimes it works, and sometimes they cut you off randomly. Seriously, it is not something to feel bad about at all.
posted by the young rope-rider at 9:52 PM on December 27, 2012


am I jerking him around a second time after already "dumping" him so recently?

Even if you were, it would be no more than this up-himself prick deserves.
posted by flabdablet at 11:16 PM on December 27, 2012 [4 favorites]


If you ever have to contact him again, you could send him a link to this description of the victims of Breivik.

I'm Norwegian and know several people who were indirectly affected by the attacks July 22 2011. At the very least, the idea that the victims were future "pro-Islamist agitators", is based on fact-free talking points.
posted by iviken at 4:27 AM on December 28, 2012 [2 favorites]


He's startled me with some of his views (... Anders Breivik ...)

It's like the crotch grab in Crocodile Dundee, without any of the danger. It may only work one out of a thousand times, but there's no cost to him to try. Good on you for keeping your eyes open.
posted by disconnect at 12:51 PM on December 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


I don't want to thread-sit, so this will be the last addition to my question. By cutting off all contact with this guy (which I am doing), am I jerking him around a second time after already "dumping" him so recently? Also, he does tend to show up at certain political events I've occasionally gotten involved with. Do I have to stop going to those as well?

in answer to question 1) It's not your problem. In answer to question 2) no, just don't talk to him.
posted by empath at 1:00 PM on December 28, 2012


If you must talk to him, pretend he's some distance acquaintance. Polite (but not obviously icy). That's it. You owe nothing else. If he tries to engage you personally, excuse yourself. (This is also the technique if you happen to make the mistake of fucking someone at work.
posted by b33j at 4:01 PM on December 28, 2012


By cutting off all contact with this guy (which I am doing), am I jerking him around a second time after already "dumping" him so recently?

Does it even matter if you are? Would defining this as "jerking him around" mean that you are now required to remain in daily verbal contact and potentially physical? Who cares if you are or not, you don't want to talk to him!

He sounds like a horrible person, he's got to be used to people deciding they want nothing to do with him. You won't be the first or the last.
posted by Dynex at 4:45 PM on December 28, 2012 [1 favorite]


Question 1 (whether you are jerking him around) depends on whether your followup email to him including any hint of seeking a casual relationship. If it did, and then you cut off contact, then yes, you are. But I'm not sure whether you did, or not. And even so, meh. He'll get over it. A suggestion to a virtual stranger is not a promise.

Question 2 (do you have to stop going to things), not at all. You don't even have to talk to him, unless you want to.
posted by sm1tten at 4:46 PM on December 28, 2012


should I go ahead and have my very first sexual experiences with him?

In a word : NO. Just make it clear it's the final end of the relationship. Go the events, the presence of both you may feel a bit awkward at first but not for long.

What could be interesting would be asking yourself what made you think he was attractive : his age ? his strong opinions ?
posted by Baud at 9:06 PM on December 28, 2012


Okay: I know I said this would be my last follow-up, but since this question he's left two emails asking what's going on with me now, where am I, and saying he wants to talk. And yes, I did say in my last message that I really wanted a casual relationship with him, so now I am jerking him around. Should I just contact him one last time to officially call it off?
posted by tamagogirl at 9:52 PM on December 28, 2012


Absolutely not. You do not owe this dude a damn thing.
posted by griphus at 9:57 PM on December 28, 2012


Maintain radio silence.
posted by flabdablet at 11:56 PM on December 28, 2012


No! What is your game here tomagogirl? Don't! This is like a should-I-eat-it thread up in here. You suspect that you should not consume the molding meat. You ask the collective and the collective agrees: DO NOT EAT MOLDY MEAT. So then you wonder maybe? No, no no no. Don't do that, throw it into the trash, and step away. That is culinary foolishness and for what? It is just some underspiced mechanically seperated ham product, leave it!

Do not respond. Do not eat the molding meat.
posted by TwelveTwo at 12:14 AM on December 29, 2012 [17 favorites]


Do not respond. Do not worry about jerking him around. You owe him nothing. Don't give him the opportunity to talk you out of this.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:44 AM on December 29, 2012


He's narcissistic. He'll get over it. He is optimized for getting over it. Do not respond, do not worry, do not feel like a jerk. Go for a walk if you need to. ("Do not eat the moldy meat" sums it right up.)
posted by sculpin at 12:39 PM on December 29, 2012 [1 favorite]


Why would you even consider associating yourself with someone who sounds like a total jerk?
posted by Dansaman at 10:39 PM on December 30, 2012


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