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What's it like to go carfree?
November 12, 2012 1:54 PM   Subscribe

Have you voluntarily gone carfree? If so, tell me what it's like.

Long time car owner living in Vancouver, BC. I have a six year old car with 120k km on it. I bought it new, it is paid for, and it runs just fine. Right now, it sits usually sits idle 5 days/week as I commute by bike. I drive it on weekends to do grocery shopping and for small trips, though when my husband was in hospital I did use it for mid-week trips after work. To give an idea of mileage, I have filled the gas tank 3 times since mid-July, and I have over half a tank of gas now.

I am considering going carfree. My husband has a truck for his business, so we could use that for family outings (though he doesn't want me to drive it). I am considering joining a car co-op for my own personal trips that I don't do by bicycle. I often see Modo car co-op cars parked in my neighbourhood. I figure that if my car costs me $3000/yr to insure, park, and operate, I might be able to halve my costs even figuring in car share, rental car, taxi, extra gas for truck, or transit costs for trips. The lump sum I would get from selling my car could easily send the family to Hawaii once or twice.

I am nervous about selling my car. I have owned my own car for 12 years. Going without makes me feel naked in a way, even though I dislike driving and parking in the city (I like highway driving on open roads, but I don't do that much these days). I like riding my bike, and could do multiple trips grocery shopping by bike, but in the Vancouver winter rain the prospect is less appealing. Hitching up trailers and getting kids/dogs/groceries up hill is also past my fitness levels for longer trips, such as up the hill to UBC.

My husband is opposed to selling the car. He thinks that the car is worth having in an emergency (though I am unclear in what kind of emergency all my other transport options would have been exhausted). He also thinks I will regret giving up my car for convenience. He also thinks I might regret it if my job moves or if I change my job and I need to start driving for work again. He's right that getting rid of my car would be inconvenient. I wonder if the cost savings will outweigh the inconvenience.

So, if you have sold your car in similar circumstances, please tell me what it was like. How is car sharing, is it inconvenient? Was it easy or hard to adjust to getting rid of your car? What was the best part, and what was the worst part? If you had it to do over, would you sell your car again?
posted by crazycanuck to Work & Money (20 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
A) why doesn't your husband want you to drive his truck? Are you a bad driver, is it a company vehicle, is he very possessive?

B) what would it cost to replace your current car with a similar car? What would your current car sell for? Could you bank what you get from selling your car and some portion of your cost savings and comfortably purchase a new car if you, say, changed jobs in a year?

C) how many children, dogs, and groceries are we talking about and how old are the kids? Are their transit needs likely to increase or decrease significantly in the next few years? (Are you going to start having to take one to traveling hockey games while the other parent takes the other to a debate tournament across the province? Does your community assume parents drive children to extracurriculars?)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:06 PM on November 12, 2012


I'm in San Francisco, and unfortunately have never visited Vancouver, so I can't speak to your local situation. But I've been carfree for 20 years and have never regretted it at all! (And I've lived alone the entire time, so don't even have an SO's truck for backup.)

Going carfree is one of the best decisions I've ever made. No more parking fees, parking tickets, insurance, gas, maintenance, etc. Plus I feel good about shrinking my carbon footprint. Car sharing is awesome, too! I did without it until about two years ago, but now for a small monthly fee I can get a car anytime I want for much less than the rental outlets. And everything's covered, including insurance and gas.
posted by trip and a half at 2:08 PM on November 12, 2012 [4 favorites]


I wrote in another thread (can't find it) that I let go of my car last year, and I don't regret it. I was constantly worried and it is not good for any car to stand still five days a week, so it spent a lot of time at the shop. Now, if I can't use my bike for something, I rent a car or take a cab. I'm thinking of buying a cargo-bike or bike trailer, though. I'm not really certain I can feel the drop in costs - I'm probably just spending the money on better food products or something.
posted by mumimor at 2:18 PM on November 12, 2012


The simple test would be to simply not use your car for a few months. If you can get through autumn and winter without it, and your yearly expenditure is on track to be lower then maintaining your existing car, then sell it.

Only you can put a price on the convenience of being able to just get in a drive to a chore/social event, compared with having to put more planning and scheduling behind it-- but that largely depends on your local transport quality and options.

I never once thought about having a car when I lived in London because of the tube, but you'd have to pry the keys out of my cold dead hands to take it from me here in the Caribbean, even though I walk to work and only use the car on the weekend/evenings.
posted by Static Vagabond at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2012 [5 favorites]


Ah, what do you know, I live in Vancouver too. I used to have a car, and I scrapped it and got a big car co-op credit through the SCRAP-IT program (the car was falling apart!). Now I exclusively use Modo.

The biggest factor, and the best part, is that I drive way, way, way, way less now than I did when I had a car, and I ride my bike more. Even though the cost of a trip is pretty cheap, especially since I'm still running down the credit. It's the difference between a pay-as-you-go plan vs an unlimited plan, essentially. When you pay for each trip, you are far more conscious of where the money goes, and you are far more likely to use alternative modes. Just the other night I biked 30 min to a friends house in the cold and I surely would have driven if I'd had a car. The exercise feels good.

The thing I miss the most is being able to go camping or skiing whenever I like -- now I have to plan in advance and factor in the added cost of getting a car or else work it out with friends -- but this won't be an issue for you as you have the truck.

The biggest drag with Modo is the hourly fees if you want to take the car somewhere, stay there for many hours, then take it home. This can add up, even for a nice dinner or something. Car2Go is better for this since you stop paying once you park, but then again you have to rely on a car being there for you when you want to return, and they can be in high demand in some places. For commuting to work it's not ideal.

I don't really miss my car. It was more of a burden than a convenience and I would absolutely make the same choice. Then again, I am not married, no kids, no dog, and live within walking distance to everything I need.
posted by PercussivePaul at 2:24 PM on November 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


You will find you can save significantly by using car sharing over owning your car (assuming it is reasonably convenient for you).

If you used 2.5 tanks of gas in 4 months, it sounds like you only drive about 250km per month. With car sharing, you are likely going to be able to do that for less than the $250/month you are paying now (this depends on how long your trips are but is fairly easy to calculate).

Also, bear in mind the savings of time, money, and mental energy to keep up with maintenance and repairs on your own car versus carsharing and not worrying at all.

If you can sell the car, end up with cash in your pocket, and save $100+ a month, you are definitely going to end up ahead. If you need to buy a car again later, then buy one. Right now you are sitting on a depreciating asset that you are barely using and it makes no sense to keep it just in case, as cars are relatively easily bought and sold.

If you aren't ready to take the plunge, you can park your car, changing the insurance to storage-only, try car sharing for a few months, and then make the decision to sell or not later.

I own a car now, as I live in a small town (we have a car share, but it only has two vehicles!). I previously lived in Montreal and was very happy with the car share there. I would switch back if I ever moved back to a city (and Vancouver is pretty good for biking and transit).
posted by ssg at 2:30 PM on November 12, 2012


I've been car-free in Toronto for ten or twelve years. I have purposefully structured my life as to not need a car except for getting out of the city on occasion. Basically I figured out that with my insurance and parking fees, I could rent a car four days a month and still come out ahead.

I got married a couple of years back and we got rid of the car that my wife brought into the relationship. The same argument applied: for the cost of parking and insurance, it didn't make sense to keep the car when it was sitting for weeks at a time. We're now avid car-sharers (it's Zipcar for us in Toronto, although there are other services).

To answer your specific questions: car sharing is not inconvenient at all, and is a much better alternative for us than traditional car rentals (although more expensive day-by-day). It was easy to adjust to the loss of the car, I didn't miss it at all. The best part is no more driving in the city, the worst part is that my city-driving skills have atrophied to the point where my wife does all the driving in town when we do get a Zipcar. I would absolutely give up my car again - unless we had kids, or maybe even a dog, because I think those elements change the equation quite a bit.
posted by flipper at 2:31 PM on November 12, 2012


I've been car-free in Calgary for over a decade. I'm single, so there's 0 cars in my household, and I've chosen to live someplace where this works -- it wouldn't work everywhere in the city. The main thing that sucks is that it's more difficult to get out of town to the mountains; I basically need to rent a car for that, which is enough hassle and expense that I don't do it (particularly since I have to pay for their insurance, where most people can just use their car insurance).

But I wouldn't change anything; it's great. I've saved thousands of dollars, and it's been good for the environment. What helps me is to think in terms of a "mobility portfolio". If you have a car, it's pretty good for almost any sort of trip, so you use it and that's that. Without, I have a wide variety of techniques, each of which is good for certain trips and destinations, and not for others. I walk to work and for groceries; I ride my bike for some destinations; transit is best for others. I'm a member of two carshare groups, a local coop and Car2Go, which also operates in Vancouver and has a somewhat different approach than most car sharing organizations. And there's always a taxi; I tell myself that I'd have to take a lot of taxis in a month to equal the cost of owning a car.
posted by Homeboy Trouble at 2:43 PM on November 12, 2012


I'm car-free in Vancouver by choice, but I don't have kids.

I'm a Car2Go member -- the one with SmartCars -- and it serves my needs. If you do the car co-op, I'd recommend signing up for Car2Go as well. It only has a $30 sign up fee (and it's easy to find codes to sign up for free) and no yearly fee, so you only pay for it when you use it. From talking to people who use all three it's a lot more convenient than Modo and Zipcar, with the downside that they only have SmartCars. Most people I know who are into car-shares use at least two of the three companies in Vancouver since they're all good at different things.

I think the main thing about not having a car is that it makes you a lot better at trip planning. I do a big grocery trip once or twice a month with a car-share to get the heavy stuff, so I just need to grab fruits/veggies/milk when I'm on my bike. Also, when you're using a car-share you pay more attention to whether you actually need to use a car for this trip.

What was the best part, and what was the worst part? If you had it to do over, would you sell your car again?

The best part is that I don't have a multi-ton, multi-thousand dollar machine I need to worry about. With car-shares you don't have to think about whether the tank is full, or if it needs repairs or if it's going to get stolen if I park it there.

The worst part is that since I know exactly what the car-share is costing me per minute I'm a little stingier about what trip deserves a car than I would be if I had my own car. But I know that at the end of the year when I sum up the car-share costs I'll still be saving lots of money.

There's probably going to be times when you have a couple cranky kids in tow and can't find a free car-share car nearby and you wonder why you sold your ride, but personally I think it's worth it. It's kind of liberating.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 2:47 PM on November 12, 2012


I don't know Vancouver public transit, and I think that makes all the difference.

I was carfree for four years, three in Boston and one in Ann Arbor. I just got a car again a few months ago.

I loved being carfree in Boston. I was walking distance to the T, which yes stopped running at the annoyingly early hour of 12:30 am, but took me most everywhere. I used a few buses frequently, especially in bad weather. I had zipcar but barely used it. It was so inexpensive (no car cost, no gas, no parking tickets) and it was great not to worry about a multithousand-dollar item. I never had to shovel the snow off my car, and I never had to take it in for service, because there was no car. Yay. I don't have kids myself- but I definitely had friends with kids who were still carfree.

I lived for a year here in Ann Arbor without a car. It was possible, but I paid more rent to live close enough to walk in to work and groceries (I don't own a bike). I also paid for an Amazon Prime membership so I could get more things delivered easily. I used a bus to get to the climbing gym, which was ok but since public transit stops at 10pm it meant I had to leave early to make the 3/4 mile walk back to the nearest stop. I decided to get a car after a few attempts to use zipcar resulted in cars not being available, or expensive cost due to wanting to be somewhere for several hours. Also I wanted to be able to go on outdoor trips without planning ahead.

I like my car now, it's a nice vehicle, but I honestly miss being carfree. It was a beautiful state and I hope to get back to it someday.
posted by nat at 3:07 PM on November 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


I'm in a similar situation. My husband has a car he uses for work, which is available for us some of the time, but during the day and most of the rest of the time I am car free -- though as I detail below, that doesn't mean I get by without a car all the time.

I have many other ways to get around, though:

* Bicycle: I thought this would be my primary mode of transportation, and I had a ton of fun riding the 2.5 miles between work and home for several months. But I have a huge hang-up about maintenance and repair of the bike. I don't like doing it. So since the first flat tire it's been tucked away in the garage.

* Bus/light rail/transit: The bus is a good way to get downtown or to go other places that lie directly on a one-shot trip from where I live. I have a transit app on my smart phone, which can tell me how to get from "current location" to wherever I want to be. Once a trip gets complicated enough that I have to transfer buses, however, it's almost never worth it for me to ride the bus because of the amount of time involved.

* Walking: Instead of riding my bike, I'm walking to a lot of places that are within about 2-3 miles of home. Most days, I either walk to work or I walk home again. I enjoy this a lot and get to see neighborhoods and areas of my city that I would not otherwise see. I've invested in rain gear that keeps me from getting soaked when it's wet, and sometimes I'll stroll slowly while I read my Kindle or iPhone (through a Ziploc if weather requires). I even bought a mini-wheeled shopping cart that allows me to do big grocery shops and bring things home without a car.

* Car2Go: I use this car sharing service several times a week. With Car2Go, I have an app on my phone that tells me where the nearest cars are -- almost always within less than 1 kilometer -- and I can reserve one to pickup within the next 15 minutes. Then I pick up a car, drive it where I want to go while paying a per-minute fee, then park it on the street and check it back in for someone else to use. As long as I start and end my trip within the official Car2Go zone, a large area of the central part of my city, I can park anywhere. I find that I need to start Car2Go trips about a half hour sooner than if I had a car at home, because I may have to walk farther than I expect to go pick it up. Often, though, there's a car right near home and I get to my destination pretty close to on time. I use Car2Go to get to or from work about half the time (walking the other half the time), except on the days when I report to an office that's 11 miles from home -- then I always use Car2Go. That office is still inside the Car2Go zone, but it's less central and sometimes there are no cars available when I get off work. If that happens, I use my transit app and take the bus home. Slow, which is annoying, but better than nothing.

* ZipCar: I use ZipCar when I know I'll need a vehicle for a long period of time and/or when a trip is starting and ending in the same place. Every ZipCar is assigned a specific partking space and when you're done using it you have to return it to that same space. It would make no sense for commuting, as I'd have to rent the car for the full 8-9 hours between when I leave home and when I return, whereas with Car2Go I only rent for the 20 or so minutes I spend driving. But when I head to a series of appointments that will require a lot of driving all over town, a full-day ZipCar rental is a great way to know I have reliable wheels.

* GetAround: Get around theoretically allows you to drive a neighbor's car when that neighbor isn't using it. First you bid, then the car owner approves the bid, then you get to drive and the car owner gets some money. I've tried to use this car sharing service, but a lot of car owners who've put their vehicles on it are flaky and I gave up because I don't want to put my life on hold for two days waiting to see if somebody will get back to me.

* Regular car rentals: If I need to drive a car for more than about one full day, renting from Enterprise/Avis/Hertz/etc. is cheaper than using ZipCar or Car2Go. It's a little annoying because it requires more paperwork and you have to buy gas when you have a regular car rental, whereas ZipCar and Car2Go cover your fuel spending, but it's much cheaper for more than short trips or single day rentals.

A bit more detail on how Car2Go is different than ZipCar:
With Car2Go, you can only reserve a car up to 15 minutes in advance, vehicles can be parked anywhere within the central city "zone" when you pick them up, and when you're done you leave them anywhere else in the zone. By contrast, with ZipCar you reserve a car further in advance -- days or weeks, if you like -- pick it up from a pre-arranged location, and have to get it back to that location by the time you promise., as someone else is likely to be waiting to use it when your reservation is over. ZipCar tends to cost less per hour or per day than Car2Go, but the requirement that you return the vehicle to its pick-up point makes it less convenient and more expensive for one-way trips. Also, in my city at least all Car2Go vehicles are two-seat Smart cars with limited trunk room, whereas ZipCar offers multiple sedans, SUVs, station wagons and full-sized vans to choose from.

It sounds like a lot, but it's not that complicated. I use car sharing quite a lot, with the cost ranging from $50-$150 per month depending on how much I drive. That's less than the payment on most cars, and includes fuel and auto insurance. Plus I don't ever need to worry about maintenance. To me the hassles are relatively minor and the financial perks are well worth it.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 3:46 PM on November 12, 2012 [2 favorites]


We have one car, because my husband commutes to a job/on a schedule that isn't feasible to do with public transportation.

When I need a car, I usually do Zipcar (hourly car rental thingie) or traditional car rental with Enterprise or Thrifty. Mostly, though, I get around by walking and using public transportation.

It's great. I would think it would work well in Vancouver, where I've always gotten around 100% on public transportation as a tourist and enjoyed it.

I would say more, but crotonsupafreak's post is so well thought out that I can only add "me too" to that excellent overview.
posted by Sidhedevil at 4:29 PM on November 12, 2012


Regarding Car2Go - my daughter is just under 6. Is it legal to put a kid in a booster chair in one of those smart cars?
posted by crazycanuck at 5:40 PM on November 12, 2012


A few months after graduating from college, I parked my car at my parents house and moved to Manhattan. I did not miss the car for a moment, and have no idea what became of that car. Ultimately, it really depend on very individual circumstances. A move to Brooklyn saw my wife and I ending up owning two cars and a move just barely over the river into NJ saw us own one car that we hardly ever use. Its a nice thing to have though - its hard to take a sheet of plywood on the bus by yourself, but totally doable with a car/truck.
posted by blaneyphoto at 6:58 PM on November 12, 2012


Is it legal to put a kid in a booster chair in one of those smart cars?

Check Car2Go's FAQ, they address this.

Oh, also I saw one of your old questions and it looks like maybe this is your first winter bike commuting? If you haven't already, make sure you spend some money on good rain gear. It's not cheap but it makes a big difference on rainy mornings. I go with shoe covers/rain pants/rain jacket/gloves most days, plus a helmet cover when it's really bad.

Last winter I started with crappy gear because I though I could tough it out and that was a big mistake. I survived my commute but was never terribly happy about it. Now that I have the good stuff from MEC I feel like rain doesn't have much of an impact on when I'll take my bike out. Totally worth the money.
posted by no regrets, coyote at 7:57 PM on November 12, 2012


I live carfree and use Zipcar. Frankly, if anyone could probably live carfree, it sounds like you could, especially if your husband has a backup vehicle (though I don't get why you're not allowed to drive it). But as nat points out, it depends on where you live. I don't know jack about Vancouver and its car options and public transport, but I do find it very limiting at times to not have a vehicle where I am in the burbs.

It will cost you probably double the price of your ticket to have to rent a car for 4 hours in order to see a 2-hour-ish play when most of the time the car is sitting there, for example. And if you want to take a drive for more than a few hours, it gets costly. It'd be technically cheaper for me to rent a car from a rental agency for cheaper for an entire day at times (say around $20/day vs. 60-70/day with Zipcar), except I'd have to leave work to get there before 5 p.m. on Friday and keep the car for the entire weekend, blah blah blah. While there are several cars within a 15-30 minute walk of my place, I do have to walk home in the dark alone after dropping one off. There can be interesting quirks and surprises that come with hopping into a car that god only knows who has been driving before you. I've had cars break down (though Zipcar was great about sending help) and one time a car wasn't there when I'd rented it for some reason. At least that time it wasn't urgent that I use it that day, but if I'd had an appointment, it would have been a big problem. And yeah, if something comes up at the last minute and you suddenly need a car, you may be shit out of luck. For example, this weekend my friend's car broke down on Friday and we were going to do an all day driving trip on Sunday. However, if you want a car all day long on a weekend, you really need to have made that reservation by oh, at least Wednesday, so we didn't go on the trip.

I think you should do a trial run of the carfree lifestyle for a few months and see if you can stand it, honestly. You're in a city, so you probably have better ability to rely on public transport when you don't have a car than I do. I admit, the times I wish I owned a car were in emergencies, last minute trips, and getting myself home safely at night. But also keep in mind that you won't be leaving town much without a car. Are you okay with not going anywhere much on weekends?
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:01 PM on November 12, 2012


I had a car for a few years in Toronto, but apart from that have lived car-free all my adult life, mostly in Toronto and San Francisco. I use Zipcar plus rental companies, and I've never regretted selling my car --- I'd always kind of hated it and felt chained by it.

There's no question you would save a ton of money not owning a car. I did the math many years ago, and found that even if I rented a car every single weekend, I would still be financially better off. Given that I only want a car once or twice a month, it was an obvious-enough decision that it left me not feeling the need to scrimp or calculate -- when I want a car, I get one, and I don't worry about cramming all my errands into a single day or anything like that.

But I think it mostly depends on your lifestyle, because owning a car is probably more about convenience than cost. Things that argue for owning a car: if you want to drive to work, if you have kids, if you've got extended family nearby who might need your help, if you live in the suburbs, if you are likely to face a middle-of-the-night emergency, if your lifestyle includes a lot of regularly-scheduled short trips like to a gym or class, and if the weather where you live is bad or unpredictable. Things that argue for renting/sharing: if you live within walking distance of the renting/sharing place, if you've got good public transportation and/or good taxi access, if you live in a walkable neighbourhood, if you resent the effort of vehicle maintenance, if you travel a lot, and if parking where you live is difficult or expensive. Those are the kinds of considerations I'd be weighing, if I were you.

(I am not surprised, actually, that your husband doesn't want to give up the car. Often in my experience this is about status and "what's normal" -- lots of people, especially ones who grew up in a car-centric family, can't imagine life without one. I always think of that Loelia Ponsonby quote: "Anybody on a bus over the age of 30 has been a failure in life." But it's not true :-))
posted by Susan PG at 10:41 PM on November 12, 2012 [1 favorite]


What was the best part, and what was the worst part? If you had it to do over, would you sell your car again?

I'm in France so can't speak to Vancouver BC specifics, but it sounds like you have a similar car share scheme (ours is called Auto Bleue, also covers insurance, plus they're electric), and your public transportation also seems pretty good.

I've been carfree for 15 years now, in three different European cities. You do get a lot better at trip planning, and one advantage I didn't expect was getting to know your neighborhood a lot better, since you're spending more time on foot and amongst people. This ends up having really neat intangible advantages over time: bus drivers know me and which lines I ride, so if I'm running late (doesn't happen often), they'll wait, which is really kind of them. Sometimes I put my bicycle on the commuter bus to take it in for repairs; it's supposed to be a 5-euro charge to put a bike in the hold, but since the drivers know me, they just wink and smile. On foot, you also cross police officers and can chat with them about any kinda-minor-but-not-really issues you might be encountering (for instance motorcycles driving on the sidewalks, street harassment, etc.; cops have always been really helpful about those). Then there are neighbors you get to know, small locally-owned shops that are tricky to get to by car but really fun on foot, and so forth.

For me that's been the best part, coupled with the relaxation of getting outside and not having to stress about the darn car. No parking worries, no gas worries, no insurance worries, no maintenance worries. I've found it's actually more freedom than having a car. If I'm in city center and think, "oh crud, I forgot to buy TP at the supermarket," I don't even have to think about what time of day it is and what that would mean about the parking situation, not to mention how much gas is in the car. I can just hop on a bus or tram.

With a yearly unlimited public transportation pass, it doesn't matter what my budget is: if I want to go somewhere, I can.

The worst part: I do have to know people with cars in order to get into the back country where public transportation is a little more complex and the electric shared cars can't reach. There's still public transportation out there, actually (which is probably not the case in Canada I imagine), it's just few and far between... but it isn't so bad most of the time, you just plan your outing around it if you can't find someone with a car!
posted by fraula at 1:13 AM on November 13, 2012 [2 favorites]


I don't (and have never had a car). It's generally not a problem, but what you want to think about is the emergencies, which can really add up. For example, this weekend, I received a call that a loved one was in an ER that was only realistically accessible by car, and all of the Zipcars within a 30 minute walk were booked. It's stuff like that that can add up fast if you have to take a taxi. Check the availability of rental cars in your area, and think about how likely it would be that they would all get booked for a certain period.

Also, I walk to get my groceries, but I can't imagine doing that with a 6 year old - she's probably too old for a stroller, but unless the store is less than a kilometer away, it's going to be difficult navigating her and a grocery cart, and having to bring any childhood accessories she might need (ie extra clothes). Something to think about here is bathroom availability - is there one at the stores you need to visit? At the midway point between your house and the stores. Also, think about the route you would have to walk - is it clear and free from debris? Are motorists expecting to see pedestrians in crossings? Do you have to cross any highway off ramps or dangerous intersections?

If your could drive the truck, my opinion would change because that would give you more options in an emergency, or even a non-emergency annoying situation.
posted by fermezporte at 4:59 AM on November 13, 2012


I live in a major city and I don't even know how to drive. I take public transit or sometimes a bike. My boyfriend does know how to drive, but doesn't own a car. He uses a carshare program when he needs to get anywhere with a car, and that's worked fine.
posted by mlle valentine at 6:28 AM on November 13, 2012


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