I'm going out now. I may be some time.

August 18, 2005 10:42 AM

Living in Canada questions: I am planning to work there next year. Is it sane to arrive in March?

I realise it will be freezing in most places, but is it feasible to arrive and look for a job and flat at that time? I can deal with the weather as long as stuff's still going on and the job market's ok.

I'm looking into Toronto and Vancouver as places to live. I'd like to be in a city with music going on and an interesting cultural scene. I like nightlife, but don't need a hardcore party town. Is there anywhere else I might consider?

posted by lunkfish to travel & transportation (32 comments total)

What do you do? Calgary's booming, as always (when the price of oil is >$60), but freezing in March.

In terms of looking for a job or an apartment, you'll probably have the same chances all year 'round. We don't hibernate or anything.
posted by some chick at 10:55 AM on August 18, 2005

Also, I see that you're from London. London in March is probably equal to Vancouver in March. Rainy, grey.. umm.. rainy.. grey.. yeah.
posted by some chick at 10:59 AM on August 18, 2005

Even though March is the traditional time for Canadians to flee to the sunny south for a week or two, it's not an insane month to arrive. We're used to the cold; it's not like the country shuts down when it snows. Vancouver might be a little wet and miserable in March, but I don't think it'd be freezing. And Toronto has variable winters: some months are mild, some are blizzard-infested disasters. It's sometimes hard to tell what kind of winter we're having until it's almost over. But it's not like you're thinking of Ottawa or Winnipeg, both of which usually have more severe winters.

Job market: depending on what you want to do, March is as good as time as any to look for work. The bad months (in Toronto, at least) seem to be July and August, because of the summer slowdown as everyone heads to the cottage. August is also a bad time to look for an apartment because of the returning university students.

Other cities to consider are Montreal and Halifax.
posted by flipper at 11:05 AM on August 18, 2005

IMO, you want to live in Vancouver. Hella better than Toronto, weather-wise and sanity-wise. Calgary would run in second place, for much the same reason.

March isn't a worry. January is the cold time of year.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:14 AM on August 18, 2005

i live in michigan, which is much like s ontario in its climate ... the weather varies from pretty cold, to halfway warm, to windy, to stormy ... sometimes in one day

it's really hard to say from one year to the next, but generally, march isn't too bad
posted by pyramid termite at 11:22 AM on August 18, 2005

Toronto's rental market is a disaster (for landlords, anyway) right now, so regardless of when you arrive, you'll be able to find something. In general, though, you're best to look for housing when University students are gone (May or June through August) and not when they come back (September, January).
posted by jacquilynne at 11:25 AM on August 18, 2005

Cool. Sounds like the weather won't be too much of a shock to the system.
posted by lunkfish at 11:47 AM on August 18, 2005

Vancouver, at least, is far from freezing in March.
posted by synecdoche at 12:17 PM on August 18, 2005

I live in Vancouver. I was born in, and grew up in, Montreal. I've been to London a number of times.

So here goes.

You will find Vancouver culturally barren. Of course my note will be followed by flames saying that this is not true. But the opportunities for cultural expression are few - and are of the order of quirks rather than real cultural tradition.

The architecture in this city is boring. People are clickey. There's an outward friendliness that allows people to approach one another (at a safeway lineup, for example, while waiting to pay) and chat up a conversation. But making friends is tough. It will take years. Your first friends will be out-of-towners like yourself, not people who were born and raised here. There's a reticence to befriend new people here, because most people are transient.

Having said all this, why have I been living here for the last 15 years? the weather! we have winter for a week in January, maybe two. That's when the snow sticks to the streets downtown. Else, it's raining. And warmish. There's snow up on the hills, and the views are nice when the skies clear.

The air is fresh. Vancouver is a tourist city, with most of its industry focused on export - so chances are that you will travel to the US, to Asia or to farther parts of the world if you work in new media, IT, biotech or manufacturing.

Love to eat? we have awesome restaurants.

And the real reason why I've stayed here since 1990?? The outdoors around Vancouver is ***spectacular*** and easily reached. There are opportunities to golf in January. To downhill ski in July (Blackcomb glacier). to backcountry ski pretty much all year. to sail all year. to run all year. to climb and hike all year round.

...

If you want a culturally rich city with low rents, warm people, great restaurants, fantastic theatre, excellent cinema and four real seasons - choose Montreal.

Two main cultures, a mosaic of other ethnicities, ninety minutes by plane from New York, cottage country (Laurentians, Eastern Townships) only a few hours away.

The job market is improving in Montreal. Come in March or in June, you will do well there.
posted by seawallrunner at 12:27 PM on August 18, 2005

I would advise against Vancouver. Although the weather is far milder than other places, the rental market is ludicrous, owing to the fact that the housing market is one of the most expensive on the continent. Unless you're prepared to commit more than $1000/month you will not get a place that will give you access to the kind of nightlife/culture you want without a car. Unlike Montreal (or even Toronto) there is not really a student/artsy ghetto; the downtown eastside is cheap and close to many things but the poverty and drug problem would likely rule it out.

I would advise for Montreal. Cheeeep rents (although that's changing); and a cultural scene second to none in Canada (and close to the top of NA). The weather can be a challenge, however.
posted by docgonzo at 12:31 PM on August 18, 2005

Thanks. I work in 'general' so should be fine anywhere... I will have to check out the outdoors while I'm there, but sounds like Montreal might be a better destination to look at for a year abroad.
posted by lunkfish at 12:40 PM on August 18, 2005

(Oh, and as a regular visitor to the charms of the left coast & the husband of a born-and-raised Vancouverite, I totally second seawallrunner's comments on the city; a close friend, also a Vancouverite -- now happily ensconced in Montreal -- has the best description of the people/ethos in V: "uptight about being laid back.")
posted by docgonzo at 12:41 PM on August 18, 2005

Grew up in Montreal. Visited Toronto many times. Live in a suburb of Vancouver (for over 5 years). seawallrunner is not too far off, but I quibble with the cultural dig. It is there, but you have to go looking for it (there's theater, orchestral music, iffy museums and lots of different ethnicities cultural activities).

I had to leave Montreal for weather reasons. The food is great in Vancouver, but fantastic in Mtl - the only real thing I miss.

I was never a nightlife type person, but Mtl is much better than Vcr. Toronto has a reputation for being staid - I don't know enough to comment on accuracy of said reputation.

I also have to disagree with docgonzo - you can find rentals for under $1K which are a bus or skytrain ride away from downtown. They'll be small, but livable.
posted by birdsquared at 12:56 PM on August 18, 2005

If you want a culturally rich city with low rents, warm people, great restaurants, fantastic theatre, excellent cinema and four real seasons - choose Montreal.

Toronto also fits all of these requirements, and on the plus side for an anglo-phone, the theatre is more likely to be in English. I don't know what it's like now, but 20 years ago, the amount of English theatre in the city was really small.
posted by jb at 12:56 PM on August 18, 2005

IMO, you want to live in Vancouver. Hella better than Toronto, weather-wise and sanity-wise. Calgary would run in second place, for much the same reason. - five fresh fish

Of course, all of these cities are 'hella' expensive to live in by Canadian standards. A half million dollar house in Van or TO would cost you 100,000 in Winnipeg and even less in Saskatoon or Halifax. Rental markets are similarly skewed. Only you know if you're willing to live in a small city like that, but they aren't the cultural wastelands that some would have you believe.
posted by raedyn at 1:00 PM on August 18, 2005

lunkfish wrote:"Montreal might be a better destination to look at for a year abroad"

You of course can consider Vancouver over the winter and Montreal in the summer. I'm guessing from your age and the "one year" thing that you are coming over on a working holiday visa. Plenty of WHers in both cities (many of the Vancouver WHers are Japanese), so employers are used to them. Month to month rentals are a little harder to find than 1 year leases, but not impossibly so.

Double the cities, double the fun.
posted by birdsquared at 1:02 PM on August 18, 2005

Toronto also fits all of these requirements

This seriously made me laugh out loud and almost shoot ice-cold cola out my nose. Toronto rents are not low, and the people are not warm. The only people who think otherwise are people who were born in Toronto, which I'm willing to lay money that jb was.

Montreal and Vancouver are both great cities, and Montreal is easily one of the world's most culturally rich cities by any metric.

Additionally, you might want to consider Ottawa. It's dirt cheap (rated North America's cheapest city in the 2005 Cost of Living Survey), has plenty of live music for most popular genres, and a surprisingly rich arts culture (being home to the National Arts Centre, National Gallery, and such).
posted by Jairus at 1:07 PM on August 18, 2005

I will be on a working holiday scheme, but think I'll stay in one place for a few reasons. I will have a look in to the smaller cities, but somewhere bigger is probably a safer bet to start with. The people will probably be warmer than London anywhere! I suppose 'interesting to wander round' is a criterion as I miss that in some cities.
posted by lunkfish at 1:22 PM on August 18, 2005

March in Vancouver is great. The rain starts to subside and you get a lot of days where you can get outside (in shorts of course) and enjoy the outdoors. Due to the continuing condo boom, the rental market is actually good right now, with around a 2% vacancy rate (don't quote me on that).
posted by trillion at 1:39 PM on August 18, 2005

lunkfish, the Ottawa area has about a million people or so. It's a great place to live.
posted by Jairus at 1:41 PM on August 18, 2005

Toronto's a great place to find work and go clubbing, but that's about it. Expensive and the smog in summer is hellish. It's good if you like fine dining and art galleries, but terrible if you like nature.

Ottawa is a fantastic city. Lots of culture, perfect mix of urban and nature — and close to Montreal (and Toronto, for that matter). But you have to be good with the cold to live there. Very chilly in the winter, and the winter can last seven months.

I live in Vancouver now, and it's my favourite city. Very expensive to buy real estate, but cheap rentals (I've found it cheaper than Toronto and Ottawa). Unbeatable when it comes to outdoors fun. So-so on the culture side of things, but there are interesting collisions of West and East given its high Asian population.

One warning though: Vancouver has massive social problems. Huge number of junkies, crackheads and meth monkeys wherever you go. If you want to come here, get used to seeing people shoot up on the beautiful beaches and sit screaming in trees in the beautiful parks. And the crime rate is astonishing. We're No. 1 or No. 2 in North America for property crimes, for instance. In my experience, Ontario was much, much safer and calmer. I wouldn't advise living anywhere downtown -- even the once-trendy West End is facing severe problems in this regard. Tough place to find work too if you're not connected. But hey, only two days of snow in the winter....
posted by showmethecalvino at 1:52 PM on August 18, 2005

There have been Marches, even early Marches, where I've worn only a t-shirt and jeans outdoors. It's not super common but it's happened numerous times in my 36 Marches.
posted by dobbs at 3:26 PM on August 18, 2005

Oh, and I'm in Toronto.
posted by dobbs at 3:26 PM on August 18, 2005

A half million dollar house in Van or TO would cost you 100,000 in Winnipeg and even less in Saskatoon or Halifax. Rental markets are similarly skewed. Only you know if you're willing to live in a small city like that, but they aren't the cultural wastelands that some would have you believe.

[snicker] yah, Saskatoon. Great city. Lots of culture. And it's got eight months of bloody, bloody cold winter! Or Winnipeg, which has so many mosquitos right now you can't even see the freakin' horizon, and gang violence problems that make Vancouver's Hastings Street look like church.

For a fellow wanting to spend a pleasant year in Canada, Vancouver, Calgary, and Montréal are about the best way to go, IMO.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:57 PM on August 18, 2005

Oh, and as for Vancouver's drug problems, I always take a walk down Hastings when I'm there (lots of pawn shops). I have never felt threatened or unsafe. Granville is another story, with too many hopped-up teens hanging in the doorways.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:59 PM on August 18, 2005

I'm from Toronto, and like it. However, as far as Canada is concerned it is the business capital, bustling, etc, and if you were going to spend a year looking for something different then you might as well go to Vancouver or Montreal, for the scenery and culture respectively. Toronto's a wonderful place to live, but it's charm is probably not comparable in terms of getting life experience.

That said, Toronto is safe (recent shooting 'wave' notwithstanding.) IIRC Winnipeg has the highest murder rate per capita of urban areas. And there's plenty to do here, as long as you don't want to ski. Winter can be snowy, but it's not at insane Ottawa/Winnipeg levels. It's mostly a series of cold spells interspersed with thaws that leave everything icy.

I really don't see why you'd go to Calgary. It's booming with oil money, but it's mostly suburban. I'd imagine it would be less fun.
posted by maledictory at 7:40 PM on August 18, 2005

itS charm... ugh.
posted by maledictory at 7:41 PM on August 18, 2005

A couple of clarifications: There is no mosquitos in Winnipeg at this moment -- they spray the entire city with malathion. There is a high murder rate here, but to avoid getting murdered here you simply have to distance yourself from producing or selling drugs. As raedyn mentioned, it is not the cultural wasteland it is made out to be by, uhm, out-of-towners. Also, a $400,000 Vancouver house would go for about $140,000 here (yes, even in Transcona!).

Having said that, I'd say that Winnipeg is a great place to live, yet not so much a great place to stay for less than a year.
posted by sleslie at 9:25 PM on August 18, 2005

If it's less than a year, I'd still choose Vancouver.
posted by fionab at 10:40 PM on August 18, 2005

Where to live?

Toronto if you like doing things indoors.
Vancouver if you like doing things outdoors.
posted by Tomatillo at 12:20 AM on August 19, 2005

Unless you have some basic knowledge of French, you might have trouble to find a job in Montreal. However, if you do...
There's the Montreal Jazz Festival... There's the Just for Laugh festival ... There are the Francofolies...
In summertime, you can walk on Ste-Catherine street or parts of St. Denis St. at midnight and have more people milling around that you will have at 9pm in either downtown Toronto or Vancouver (or, I suspect, any other Canadian city, except perhaps Quebec City which is *very* French).
posted by aroberge at 3:05 AM on August 19, 2005

Actually, no anglo people in Canada be warmer than Londoners - Anglo Canadians (English as a first language) are naturally more reserved than Brits (based on my experience being a Canadian in Britain - you all are so loud and boisterous!). Fortunately, just about all Canadian cities are predominantly non-anglo - Toronto has many allophones who are extremely friendly.

Toronto rents are cheaper than Montreal (I don't know Vancouver), and about 1/2 or less what you'd pay in SE Britain. And there is a ton of life outside of the business core - it's a city of neighbourhoods. Kensington, Danforth, Little Italy, Bathurst& Bloor - all of these places are bustling with people and things. I don't club - and I found Montreal was far more about clubbing, whereas Toronto actually has pubs (not really the British kind, but closer). People are around at 9pm - frankly, people are around at Bathurst and Bloor at 4am. Mostly waiting for the 24 hour bus, aka the vomit comet. It goes very fast.

Montreal is a culturally rich city, but that doesn't make Toronto not - I just happen to know that the independent theatre scene in Toronto is far larger than the English scene in Montreal - a few years back, there was just about only one English company. And the music scene is amazing - check out some of the posts dobbs has made on Toronto bands.

If you haven't lived there, don't diss it. Just because you couldn't find your way off King and Bay doesn't mean the rest of the world can't. (Here's a tip - get on the subway, and get off at Musuem. There's a museum there.)

Also, we have a nude beach.
posted by jb at 8:36 PM on August 25, 2005