Comments on: Wondering About The Premiership

Question: Wondering About The Premiership

boombot — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:26:11 -0800

I'm an American who developed an interest in Premiership football last year. I don't have anyone to jaw the subject with, and have accumulated several minor questions I've lumped under one heading.

1) What's the significance of United in so many team names?
2) Can someone explain how transfer fees and loans work, as opposed to trades? I'm wondering how these things are accomplished inter-league, why there are no trades, who picks up what portion of the player's salary, if there is a deadline, etc.
3) I usually watch on Fox Soccer Net, but they never seem to have the high profile games or Champions League action. Is this because that stuff is PPV-only?
4) I enjoy BBC's Rumor Mill podcast, but would love to find something with similar attitude and content value that more specifically focused on reviewing last week's action and previewing this week's games. Anything out there fitting the bill? The Treble is too long and not Premiership-focused enough and the Premiership Podcast is, well, dull.
5) What are the prevailing English attitudes about the teams? Who is hated like the Yankees, loved like the Cubs, etc.?

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:50:51 -0800

1) United means that all the members have decided to 'unite' under the same banner... For example, there were a number of clubs playing in Newcastle in the 1880s, including Newcastle East End and Newcastle West End. When East End took over the St James' Park ground of West End in 1892 it was decided to adopt a new name that would bring together all the supporters in the city. Hence Newcastle United. In other cases, clubs adopted the name because they liked its sense of purpose. Most famously, Newton Heath FC changed their name to Manchester United in 1902.

By: samstarling

samstarling — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:58:55 -0800

It could be said that Manchester United are both the most hated and the most loved team in the Premiership...

By: schoolgirl report

schoolgirl report — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:01:28 -0800

3) Yes, although you may see those matches on FSC on replay later in the week. Also note that in many cities you can find bars airing these more significant matches live (often in the morning, mind you). You'll have to pay an entrance fee, but you'll be around fans and get the real feel.

You might also want to check out Soccer On TV, a handy little thing that will tell you what matches are on the cable networks in your viewing area.

By: ClanvidHorse

ClanvidHorse — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:39:03 -0800

Manchester United were the most hated club in English football but have been displaced by Chelsea (who have bought everyone that they can on the back of a Russian oil oligarch's petroroubles). It seems to be related to ostentatious displays of wealth that irk the most.

Roman Abramovich has financed the revolution whereas ManYoo have become saddled with debt (From richest sporting club in the world before the takeover),much to the delight of fans (except ManYoo) up and down the country due to the efforts of the Glazer clan of Tampa Bay fame..

I suspect people hate the rich winners but still enjoy a little schadenfreude at the newly impoverished as well.

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:39:58 -0800

Think Chelsea could now rival Man U as most hated/loved due in no small part to Jose Mourinho's behaviour (not to mention the success he has brought.) He seems to split opinion.

By: selton

selton — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:02:10 -0800

There are rules regarding transfer+loan deadlines (to play in the Champions Lge etc.) and nowadays a transfer block for the majority of the season, a window opens in January of each year for hasty, random, panic purchases... then you can't sign any players to play until June. (season running Aug-May normally)

Also a player cannot play in the same "cup" competition, these rules don't apply to the Premier Lge, in the same season, for more than one club. You might hear the term "cup tied" which means he's already played for some other team in, for example, the FA cup and can't play for his new club.

Loans can be for a short period of time (1+ months) or I think, at most, a season and the receiving club pays all or, often as they're too poor, none of the players salary. They're giving the player experience: often young players are loaned out, famously Beckham to Preston IIRC.

The rules on loans seem to have changed recently, and how common they are too, at one time I'm sure you couldn't loan a player to a team in the same division as you, but you can now.

At one time it was really only ever goalkeepers who were loaned between teams in emergencies, now it's often quite high profile players eg. The capt of Russia, Smertin spent a year on loan from Chelsea to Portsmouth - I'd imagine that if Portsmouth paid anything towards his salary it was a relatively small %

For gossip I don't know how far the archives go back but you could try the Guardian's Rumour Mill, less dry than the BBC's but often obviously with the samish content.

By: boombot

boombot — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:08:25 -0800

Thanks for all the info, please keep it coming. As a follow up for Selton, why would a high-profile player like Smertin be loaned out, especially if Portsmouth didn't cover his salary? An established player doesn't need to develop, so why not either use him or part with him?

Can I add in a request for an explanation about what Darbys (Derbys?) are?

By: cushie

cushie — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:22:35 -0800

Derbies are local rivalry matches eg Man U vs Man City; Liverpool vs. Everton, Portsmouth vs. Southampton; Newcastle vs. Sunderland.

Sometimes the media tries to make more derbies (eg Middlesborough vs. Newcastle) but all true fans know that's just not right.

Also, there are sometimes trades of players, and there is no reason it can't happen, it just seems much less frequent.

If you are interested in listening (as opposed to watching) live, you can try the BBC World Service (XM, Sirius, online (although sometimes you need to use BBC 5live) on a Saturday morning, US time. You'll get live commentary on one high profile match, and live updates of all the matches.

I don't know if anyone is universally loved, but you can often tell people's age by who they support, especially if they don't support the team from where they grew up. It's the team that was super-dominant during their formative years eg (roughly):
Formative years 70s: Derby Co. or Notts Forrest
Formative years 80s: Liverpool
Formative years 90s: Man U

Of course we don't really respect these people for choosing to just support the best team instead of embracing the blood sweat and tears of whatever team you were born into.

By: jamesonandwater

jamesonandwater — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:23:10 -0800

You can listen to a lot of matches (as well as post-match call in shows) on BBC Radio Five Live via their website. We usually have it on in our household on Saturday mornings during the season. Or head for your local friendly Irish pub.

As for "hated" / "loved" it's very tied up in geography and traditional local rivalries - so if you're a Spurs supporter, you hate Arsenal or a Celtic supporter, you hate Rangers etc. There doesn't seem to be any casts of characters like the old Wimbledon team around any more. The odd few second and third division teams who make through to the latter end of the cups get a lot of attention and affection.

By: einarorn

einarorn — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:23:18 -0800

Derbys are games between two teams from the same city. Everton vs Liverpool, Arsenal vs Tottenham etc.

With regards to the loans, e.g. Smertin, there are a lot of reasons a team wants to loan its players. E.g. for Smertin, he was new to the Premiership when he was bought by Chelsea. Chelsea is a much stronger team than Portsmouth, and they knew that he might get few opportunities to prove his worth at Chelsea. At Portsmouth he was always in the team, and therefore got very valuable Premiership experience. So, his value to Chelsea increases greatly.

Also, as a part of the loan agreement, teams almost always agree on a clause where the player doesn't play against their own teams. For example, when Liverpool loaned El-Hadji Diouf to Bolton last year, he didn't play for Bolton against Liverpool.

By: selton

selton — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:30:17 -0800

Smertin probably wasn't a strandard loan: and einarorn is probably right why they loaned him out so quick.

Related to Derbys are also just plain grudge matches: Man Utd/Liverpool, Man Utd/Leeds and probably soon Chelsea against anyone.

The Rangers/Celtic derbies has the added factor of religion: Rangers-protestant, Celtic-Catholic - I remember a big furore when Rangers signed a catholic (and ex-celtic, I think) player: Mo Johnston.

By: Emperor Yamamoto's Eggs

Emperor Yamamoto's Eggs — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:38:53 -0800

Just to add for any football fans who have DirecTV, you can catch some Champions League games on Setanta Sports. It is an extra 11.99 per month, but if you are a die-hard like my husband it would be worth it.

By: selton

selton — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:47:22 -0800

If you like stats and stuff, try soccerbase + also football365 has some nerdy things too.

By: ClanvidHorse

ClanvidHorse — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 12:58:31 -0800

As a Celtic supporter I can confirm the levels of antipathy that exists between the two sets of fans in the Old Firm (Celtic Rangers). The casualty wards are flooded on the night of a game with many victims of random beatings and the odd stabbing. Occasionally people have died. But this is the desperate end of the wedge.

For most fans, it is the thought of going into work the morning after a game and facing the same smug faces or walking on air after an especially emphatic performance that is as far as it gets. I fondly remember Celtic's 6-2 win over Rangers a few years back. (We were 3-0 up inside 15 minutes and they were shambolic). It was a glorious day for all Celtic supporters but it was the next week that you knew what it meant to people on both sides. I believe that 40% of the guys called in sick the next day (and I work for one of the big four accountancy firms so these were guys with careers and supposedly professionals), one half so drunk they couldnt possibly make work the next day, the ohers so embarassed they didnt want to come in either.

The incident involving Mo Johnston is viewed as a nadir for Celtic and the man is so hated by both sets of fans that he cannot step foot in Glasgow ever again (He's settled for MLS in Kansas I believe). He was a Catholic Celtic player, went to French side Nantes and came back ostensibly to re-sign for Celtic (he then went over to Rangers behind everyone's back at Celtic and became the first Catholic to sign for Rangers). It should be said that Celtic signed anyone irrespective of religion since their inception. It was so bad that he was called (and still is in some quarters) Judas Johnston.

I dont know too much about sport in the US but perfectly sane, normal people go crazy when there is an Old Firm derby on. I know a surgeon who turns into a raving lunatic on the eve of the game. Personally, I cant eat for the day before...

... and I like to think that I am one of the sensible ones.

That is pretty much what a real derby match is about. It embraces culture, history, family, friendship, bigotry, hatred, euphoria, joy, money and politics. It shouldnt but it does and that's about it.

By: clevershark

clevershark — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:02:38 -0800

Isn't Chelsea vs. Arsenal somewhat of a Derby game? I would have thought it was a very obvious one!

By: lilnemo

lilnemo — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:11:05 -0800

For good discussion you can go to Sportsfilter. You'll find several knowledgable "footie-followers" there and you might still have time to join up in the Fantasy Soccer League.

By: jmgorman

jmgorman — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:19:02 -0800

Are there any known torrent sites for premiership matches? I don't mind watching a few days later if I can.

By: jdroth

jdroth — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:39:40 -0800

Great question boombot. I, too, am a Yank who prefers Brit football.

In order to learn about the game, several years ago I chose a team (Everton) and decided to make it mine. I've watched a few matches on Fox Sports World, have bought some magazines (Borders has a good selection usually), and follow some web sites. I'm even in a Yahoo!UK fantasy football league.

Just this year, I've discovered it is possible to download torrents of games. I search TorrentSpy for Everton a few hours after a match, and voila! there's often a game to download. (Everton's loss to Villareal is there to download now.) It kind of sucks to know the score ahead of time, but maybe I can train myself to wait and watch the match first and then read the match reports.

Good luck and have fun!

By: corvine

corvine — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:53:22 -0800

The Champions League matches involving British clubs are usually shown on free TV here, but all Premiership league games are on Sky or PPV.

You can sometimes get live streams of matches from Chinese sports sites.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 14:59:30 -0800

I highly recommend the Rough Guide to European Football, which taught me a tremendous amount about the various teams and their histories when I was trying to learn about the sport (and has useful advice like "An English football ground is one of the few places in the world where you can eat a boiled hamburger—avoid them at all costs"). There's also a Rough Guide to English Football and Rough Guide to Cult Football; they sound good, though I haven't seen them. You should also become aware of the phrase "the scum up the road," used by supporters of one team in a rivalry to refer to the other... which reminds me to recommend Nick Hornby's Fever Pitch if you haven't already read it. Soccer in Sun and Shadow by Eduardo Galeano is a more meditative and literary Latin American take on the game and its history. Enjoy!

By: Navek Rednam

Navek Rednam — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:19:14 -0800

Pick up a copy of Football Manager 2005 PC/Mac. That'll give you a ground's eye view of management of the Premiership. IIRC, the software also comes with rules and history of the game that fill out your knowledge of the sport.

By: essexjan

essexjan — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:38:52 -0800

Isn't Chelsea vs. Arsenal somewhat of a Derby game? I would have thought it was a very obvious one!

No. Chelsea are in west London, so their derby game is against Fulham, their hated local rivals. Arsenal are in north London, and play Spurs (Tottenham Hotspurs) in local derbies.

Incidentally (and being totally pedantic), it's a little 'd' for derby in this context. Derby with a big 'D' is the name of either the horse race or the town of Derby, who play their derby games against Nottingham Forest.

Football rivalry goes deep and is in the blood. I am a Man United fan (and before you all start on my 'essexjan' name, yes, I was born in Australia, grew up in the Midlands and have lived in Essex for 28 years so who the hell else would I support but Manchester United? In my defence, the family is from Manchester and all apart from me still live there).

I digress. As I was saying, football rivalry is a deep-rooted thing. At work, whenever I sign letters to people living in Leeds, Liverpool or Newcastle, I use my Man Utd pen. I know they wouldn't know, but I do, and sometimes it makes my day. Sad, eh?

By: holgate

holgate — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:50:17 -0800

Oh, back in the days before streaming, we used to join IRC channels where a set of locals would transcribe the radio commentaries for expats. Now Fox Soccer Channel has the Sky games, while ESPN has the rights to show Champions League stuff.

Reading online: fanzine sites are often a bit incomprehensible for outsiders, but they're a good way to track the local buzz.

Reading offline: Harry Pearson's The Far Corner is a great way to understand the passion for the game in the north-east of England. He travels from the top-league teams to the amateur and youth leagues in the course of one season, bringing in wodges of history and folklore. It's very, very funny.

jdroth has the right idea: pick a team to support and stick with it through thick and thin.

Finally, the Tyne-Tees derby (Skunks vs. Boro) is a very real one.

By: cushie

cushie — Thu, 11 Aug 2005 19:18:34 -0800

Tyne-Tees derby maybe real for Boro fans, nowhere close to Geordies vs. Mackems for the Geordies tho (see how heated this can get?).

By: biffa

biffa — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:00:17 -0800

With regard to Q2, this site gives an explanation of how transfers work. Things changed radically a few years ago with the Bosman ruling, which gave players more freedom to move from club to club, to profit from moving and to make their agents rich.
Trades do occur in football, a less skilled or older player will often be thrown in to sweeten the pot when money is being paid for a player. Direct trades are less common.

By: ninthart

ninthart — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 03:41:05 -0800

Isn't Chelsea vs. Arsenal somewhat of a Derby game?

No. Not only for geographical reasons, either.

It's also because form is temporary, where as class is permanent.

By: egilmore

egilmore — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:14:14 -0800

Q: 3) I usually watch on Fox Soccer Net, but they never seem to have the high profile games or Champions League action. Is this because that stuff is PPV-only?

A: The restrictions on which station shows games are usually about rights. Fox and Setanta have the rights to Premiership games in the US. Setanta and PPV providers show some games and the rest are free on Fox Soccer Channel.

FSC tends to have one reasonably high-profile game at a weekend - the usual pattern is that the Sunday afternoon (4pm UK time) game is the biggest of the weekend (though not always when teams are playing Tuesday Champions League games). That's on PPV in the US, as is a selected 3pm UK time Saturday game. But FSC usually has the early Saturday game, which often has one of the leading teams, and usually two more tape-delayed games over the weekend. Midweek games are usually free too.

The non-PPV Champions League rights for the US are owned by ESPN, but they don't make good use of them and usually only show one game a week on ESPN2. I guess its Setanta who own the satellite rights and show other games in bars only.

By: daveirl

daveirl — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:31:05 -0800

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:08:20 -0800

Try this - http://www.freepgs.com/bargainplace/streams/channels.htm

By: daveirl

daveirl — Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:18:06 -0800

Firefox extension for scores

By: holgate

holgate — Sat, 13 Aug 2005 04:49:51 -0800

The restrictions on which station shows games are usually about rights. Fox and Setanta have the rights to Premiership games in the US. Setanta and PPV providers show some games and the rest are free on Fox Soccer Channel.

The 3pm Saturday match and 4pm Sunday match (PPV) usually make it to FSC later in the week. Americans probably won't know this, but 3pm Saturday games can't be broadcast live in the UK, nor can broadcasters show game footage until after Match of the Day, the evening highlights programme, and venues using continental feeds get closed down very quickly. There are also no local broadcasts or blackouts; because the 'markets' are geographically quite small, live broadcasts are considered a threat to ticket sales.

By: ninthart

ninthart — Thu, 18 Aug 2005 12:56:35 -0800

I love listening to the anti-Chelsea stuff. I'm a complete neutral (well I lie I love seeing Man U losing) but the Liverpool/Arsenal/Man U fans are so upset that someone else is joining their little club as if there should be some rule limiting exactly who's allowed to win the league.

No, it's not that. It's because Chelsea were a non-entity of a club until they accepted the Russian's dirty money and thereby bought their way to glory. Do you really think that Mourinho would be at Chelsea if it wasn't for the wad of cash that was dangled in front of him?

By: peacay

peacay — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:33:43 -0800

I haven't tried any of this but this page (and comments) talks about 'bittorrent streaming' of tv - not sure if it's either technically possible/correct but I'm going to give it a go next weekend.