Inoculation against the Dotty

August 16, 2012 7:16 PM

Advice needed for how to play nice with a neighbour-relative who is sweet to the point of cloying and whose opinions and behaviours frequently illustrate that we share a different reality.

My SIL, Dotty, will be moving into a house on our property in a few months time. She is unemployed, in her 50s, and has been a follower of modern Hindu-based religions (Hare Krishnas, Sanyasins etc) since her teenage years. She is very kind hearted and considerate to the point of abasement. Dotty has been a single mother and poor her adult life. She is the last of a generation that was brought up to expect a passive life supported by a 'husband' (her words). She still holds to the dream that a white knight (a Krishna-blue knight?) will save her.

My partner, her brother, has always felt close to Dotty and promised that she would never be left homeless. Now we have a spare house and work for her to do - work she likes and is good at - it seems the perfect time. All good.

All good, except... she says things without thinking that make me want to ignite from the reality-clash. Eg. Our dog is old and worn out. He has weeks left before we put him down via injection at the vet. Dotty suggested starving him to death instead 'so he has a spiritual death like the yogis'. She is not in anyway cruel, just.... misguided?

What I need is a filter that I can run her comments and statements through so as to provide a response that both honours my experience of reality while not being dismissive of her crazi & weyrd perspectives.

So, how can I make this filter? What are the words I need to repeat to myself? Her gullibilities and 'spiritual' quests are not consistent just sort of what's in 'fashion'. She's often holds the views of extreme members of her cohort (whoo-hoo stuff) out of a sense of loyalty to those people.

This is a long term situation. I want to grow through it. Our residences will be 100m away from each other with separate outlooks so that helps A Lot. Her brothers' (who love and care for her a lot) call her 'creepin jesus' due to the way she walks quietly and just sort of appears at your elbow and says something inane.

Living with us will expand her options and release her from high rents and frequent moves. It will be good for her, good for my partner, and hopefully good for me IF I CAN FIND SOME WAY TO KEEP COOL WHEN SHE SAYS SOMETHING RIDICULOUS!

Tips, tricks and advice please.

posted by Kerasia to human relations (33 answers total)

Try to guess the intent behind her statement and respond to that. Like "yeah, our dog had a good, noble life, we're thinking about how to honor that". Or, "it sounds like you want him to have a dignified death, I understand that." Adjust level of empathy as necessary to keep the conversation at a length/depth you can deal with.
posted by momus_window at 7:25 PM on August 16, 2012 [14 favorites]

How much do you actually know about Eastern/Indian religions? How much do you know specifically about the Hare Krishnas?

I've known a few, spent time traveling in India, and had a hippy-dippy yogini phase of my own, and they don't seem all that weird once you really get to know them and what their beliefs are about.

Being an East Coast Liberal creative/media type who grew up in the bible belt, I feel your pain. But really, this is not such a big deal. She's into somewhat weird stuff, but it sounds like mostly she just doesn't self-censor very well. This is pretty easy to learn to live with. It's not like she thinks you should take the dog out back and shoot it. It's not like she's ranting and raving against Nigerian Barack Obama who is going to take all our guns away and start concentration camps for white people.

My advice would be to read up on Hinduism and Eastern Spirituality, and maybe find some common ground with your SIL. Could you guys do yoga together? Or could you just read up on it and ask her questions? If she spent a lot of time in Hindu-influence New Aged movements, she probably has a lot of great stories.
posted by Sara C. at 7:26 PM on August 16, 2012 [4 favorites]

While I think that understanding where's she's coming from in terms of her spirituality may help, your one example of her spiritual beliefs is... pretty wacky. I basically consider myself a Hindu (if I had to choose a religious affiliation), and I would never, ever suggest that someone starve their dog to death, nor do I believe this would give him a "spiritual death like the yogis".

Anyway, I think momus_window has it: try to see the positive intent behind her words and actions. It's great you already have so much compassion for this woman, hopefully that will lend you some patience in dealing with her.
posted by Specklet at 7:58 PM on August 16, 2012

For innocuous stuff, I would just smile and nod (dog killing is not innocuous). ("oh that's interesting, I never thought of it that way" and so on). When someone is really that woo woo out there, I don't think asserting your own reality really matters. As long as it's harmless, just be kind and friendly.
posted by murfed13 at 8:05 PM on August 16, 2012

"She means well."
posted by Houstonian at 8:09 PM on August 16, 2012 [8 favorites]

I basically consider myself a Hindu (if I had to choose a religious affiliation), and I would never, ever suggest that someone starve their dog to death, nor do I believe this would give him a "spiritual death like the yogis".

Yeah, one of the first things to know is that, a lot of the time, Western New Age practitioners inspired by Hinduism/Buddhism/"gurus" come up with some things that are nothing like those religions as practiced by people who were actually raised Hindu or Buddhist or whatever.

I'm by no means saying that learning about her beliefs will make them right, or even logical, but just that this stuff seems much weirder if what you know is "eeewwww, weirdo Asian stuff, maybe a cult, ick". Learning about what they actually believe (especially on a variety of levels) will help it seem a lot less foreign, if nothing else.
posted by Sara C. at 8:19 PM on August 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

"People are different."

On repeat, forever. I have a feeling that with time and repetition, you'll get used to the Dotty-isms and even come to look forward to their wacky appearances.
posted by mynameisluka at 8:22 PM on August 16, 2012 [4 favorites]

Maybe not the kind of advice you were looking for, but I like to pretend that incredibly annoying unreasonable people are actually space aliens who come down to earth to play "annoy the earthlings" games, and my goal is not to let them score points.

Underlying this game is a basic assumption that some (many?) people have assumptions so far beyond mine that--regardless of who is right and who is wrong--it makes absolutely no sense to try to find middle ground. People like this really are almost literal aliens, at least mentally. So don't even bother trying to reconcile your two points of view.
posted by zachawry at 8:22 PM on August 16, 2012 [8 favorites]

Can you start your own private collection of the wacky things she says, so that it's like a game where you're always waiting for her to really top herself with a new hilarious gem for you to harvest and add to your list? You could do it in a password-protected blog or something...make a silly little project of it with tags and stuff. You could even share it with your partner if he would find it amusing (the "creepin jesus" moniker makes me think he would). I understand that the situation of putting your elderly dog down is a sad one, so that's not such a great example, but I'm guessing many of the things she says will seem hilarious in retrospect. Maybe seeing them aggregated will help you realize how consistently funny the older ones are once they're distanced from real-world in-the-moment situations, which in turn might help you learn to see the humor as they arise. Possible bonus: if she should someday pass away before you, such a collection may even come to be a sweet and poignant reminder of her eccentricities.
posted by ootandaboot at 8:52 PM on August 16, 2012 [3 favorites]

Please don't make fun of her secretly as others suggest. That's seriously immature and not a good way to deal with this.

The next time she says something that makes you uncomfortable, just say so. "Dotty, when you say things like that, it makes me really uncomfortable, no matter how well you mean it. Please stop."

Nthing the read up on Eastern religions as a way to give context to the things Dotty says.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 9:08 PM on August 16, 2012 [4 favorites]

I think looking at this as that you live in different realities is the right way to go here.

This is a translation error. The sentiment she is trying to express is getting lost in translation from her reality to yours. Try to respond to her intent instead of her mangled-seeming expression of it.

If nothing else I think trying to experience her that way would be a lot more interesting than secretly laughing at her.
posted by ook at 9:18 PM on August 16, 2012 [3 favorites]

Dotty suggested starving him to death instead 'so he has a spiritual death like the yogis'

"No, we're not going to do that".

And keep reminding yourself that she's not doing this maliciously (repeat as a mantra).

I know this can be really hard - to be really straightforward and tactful in situations like these - because if someone said that to me I think I'd hit the roof. I'm working on it.
posted by heyjude at 9:35 PM on August 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Another option that works to great effect for me: "No thanks, that's not a good fit for me/us/our family." If she asks why, you can either explain, or smile and say, "Different strokes for different folks."
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 9:49 PM on August 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Do what I do when my mother acts like a martian: go read a news story on the tubby, hateful, socks and sandal wearing bigots that make up the Tea Party and say a prayer of thanks that your older relatives aren't out embarrassing you that way.
posted by fshgrl at 10:54 PM on August 16, 2012

Sara C. How much do you actually know about Eastern/Indian religions? Ah, therein lies a problem. I lived in India & Nepal for over a year. I have an extensive collection of modern Indian literature and an ongoing interest in the country. Dotty spent a few weeks cloistered in an ashram in Poona in the 1980s where her only outside experiences were a taxi to/from the airport and one day-trip. Sometimes she will romantically/medically generalise about Indian life in a way that makes me want to teleport her to the slums of Chennai and say "See! See! Wearing sandalwood and scavenging from a sewer does not cure cancer!" But that's the kind of response I am trying to avoid.

I won't be starting a blog. Apart from the odd tension-relieving aside to my partner, I won't make fun of her.
posted by Kerasia at 11:05 PM on August 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

You might try my mom's answer to things she doesn't feel like getting into:

"It is the way of my people."

(Her "people" are white, mainstream, protestant, etc etc)

I have found it works wonders.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:17 PM on August 16, 2012 [27 favorites]

"Huh, that's an interesting thought / different perspective / new one for me. I'll have to think on that / take it under advisement / let you know once I've had some time to process that."

Passive-aggressive? I guess maybe a little. It is the way of my people.
posted by hades at 12:41 AM on August 17, 2012 [4 favorites]

It will be good for her, good for my partner, and hopefully good for me IF I CAN FIND SOME WAY TO KEEP COOL WHEN SHE SAYS SOMETHING RIDICULOUS!

See those capitals? It's very hard to read that without tensing up. When you actually get annoyed with this person, it's not just a mental act; you're doing something physically as well. So you can try to calm down with some kind of positive mental mantra, but you're probably going to be left with a lot of residual tension in your body, which is bad for you and will make it even harder to change something about the way she affects you.

Next time she says something that makes you boil, pay attention to your body. Where are you tense? Are your shoulders up around your ears? Are you clenching your jaw? Is your belly in a knot? Have you stopped breathing? Really feel what you're doing - you can even do it a little more - and then let go and breathe. Letting go of efforts and breathing doesn't necessarily mean you become full of lovingkindness. It means you fully allow what's there, and then decide what to do with it. And it doesn't have to be the same every time. One day you may want to tell her to shut up; another day you may just feel like laughing. But changing your automatic physical reaction will go a long way towards changing your attitude in general towards her.
posted by Paris Elk at 1:25 AM on August 17, 2012 [6 favorites]

I have a close relative like this, as well. Her latest thing was that the aliens would reveal themselves to us on July 4th. I used to get very annoyed. Sometimes I still do, but for the most part I can handle it these days because I can look at it more objectively. She is an elderly lady who believes these things because they comfort her or what have you. And I don't get much out of challenging her. Proving that I'm "right"? Engaging in a thrilling debate about UFOs? For the most part, I just smile and nod and enjoy the yarn.
posted by amodelcitizen at 1:49 AM on August 17, 2012

If she says something that you disagreee with, you could probably just say "I disagree", and not engage any further than that.

Alternatively, you could say exactly what you're thinking. Like, if she says that you should starve your dog, you could say "what? No! I'm not going to starve my dog. No offense, but sometimes you say things that kind of worry me." I mean, but without saying it in a cruel way.

If you think the things she's saying are totally off base, it's ok for you to say that. It would probably make you less stressed around her and make your relationship smoother- again, if it's said with love.

I don't think you should snark about her behind her back like some people are saying. That's icky.

Say what you mean and mean what you say, but don't say it meanly.

And good on you for trying to deal with this and grow through it! Best of luck!
posted by windykites at 4:45 AM on August 17, 2012 [2 favorites]

Perhaps you will find something that works for you here. It's an old question of mine, and I have come to love lemuria's suggestion: "How kind of you to take an interest."
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:19 AM on August 17, 2012 [1 favorite]

I have an extensive collection of modern Indian literature and an ongoing interest in the country.

The next time she makes a statement that drives you crazy respond that since she seems so interested in [that topic] that you have a great related book she can read. Eventually you might start your conversations from a closer level of understanding. Maybe you can even have a mini book club.

It sounds like she is easily influenced so let her be influenced by quality information.
posted by mikepop at 5:57 AM on August 17, 2012 [5 favorites]

This is what I do about all the really reactionary conservative religious folks I've got friended on facebook; I have them added because they were basically family to me for a long period of my youth, there is history and love there and so far the contact is worth dealing with the idiotic things they post sometimes.

It all comes down to choosing my battles. There are very few things that are worth the drama and upset it would cause me - not them to start arguing about. So I don't comment when they pop up with something that's... well, stupid. I have, on occasion, pointed out as calmly and kindly as I can, when they're saying something that's patently and completely not true. I don't get a response, but that's a win to me - my goal isn't ever to start an argument. Sure, they may mistake my silence for agreement at times, but... what do I care about that? I know what I think, I know what I believe, and I'm secure in that regardless of other's opinions.

So you know, ignore what you can - acknowledge she's spoken, be polite so you can maintain a pleasant and happy atmosphere, and if you need to, occasionally state your disagreement in a kind but calm tone, and don't let it take up too much of the room in your head. The advice to respond to her intent rather than her actual words is very good, I'm going to hang on to that one for myself :)

There are a lot of people who apparently believe there should be no such thing as an unexpressed thought. If your SIL is one of them, well, you don't have to be.
posted by lemniskate at 6:37 AM on August 17, 2012

100 metres?
This will not end well unless you burn and salt the earth (metaphorically) between the houses.
Draw lines in the earth from day 0.
Letting a dog starve? Well, that gets my goat, but that's beside the point.

She needs to know that she needs to act as a neighbour, not a roommate, and you need to set guidelines as to what kind of visiting is okay. That might be each day, several times a day (our best 'hoodrats were like that) or... as little as possible. Or somewhere in between.

She needs to know that "religion is never okay". I dance this one between Catholic chums and pagany friends, and the best way to be is to shut down all the things.

If there's a religious dimension to the conversation, smack it down.
It's a subtle distinctiin between "let the dog go" and "without food" but it is a hard but workable one.
posted by Mezentian at 6:51 AM on August 17, 2012 [3 favorites]

Here in the Southeastern United States we say, "Bless her heart." Sounds lovely doesn't it?

Here's the translation: "What a fucking loon." We're just very polite down here.

Whenever your SIL comes out with some half-baked, unfiltered nonsense, just smile at her and say, "Bless your heart."

We have relatives who occasionally come out with some rubbish. Once my FIL (a lovely guy, but a crumudgeon) said, "Notice how it's always the black people who are winning on The Price Is Right?" Now, I could have gotten all indignant and lectured him on racism and tolerance. But I also know that he sometimes was all contrary for the sake of being contrary, so I said, "Oh come on. Even YOU don't believe that." Bless his heart.

Husbunny's cousin is Born Again fundamentalist, and doesn't he come out with some shit. He'll post outrageous stuff on Facebook, and I'll challenge him gently, "Be Nice. It's not everyone's destiny to walk the same faith-path that you're walking." Bless his heart.

You get the idea.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:05 AM on August 17, 2012 [7 favorites]

What I need is a filter that I can run her comments and statements through so as to provide a response that both honours my experience of reality while not being dismissive of her crazi & weyrd perspectives.

Pity, maybe? I mean no one ever says "When I'm 50 I want to be a single parent, poor, living off the charity of my family, sheltered, easily misled, lacking in curiosity and probably not very bright! Yay!"

It seems like the fact that you do have actual knowledge of and experience with what she claims to have knowledge of and experience with is what makes this so frustrating. (And I can completely understand.) Would it be less bad if she was talking about stuff like space aliens or faeries? If she was that kind of loony, would you be able to just say "Umm-hmm...anyway, nice weather today, huh?" I wonder if you could combine the attitude of pity/compassion, with remembering that what she's saying is nuts but harmless, and add a bit of your own experience. "Oh, that's interesting, the Hindus I know do it differently." And then walk away. That's what I'd attempt to do, anyway.
posted by DestinationUnknown at 7:14 AM on August 17, 2012 [3 favorites]

What I need is a filter that I can run her comments and statements through so as to provide a response that both honours my experience of reality while not being dismissive of her crazi & weyrd perspectives.

My filter would be, "Come five o'clock, I don't have to listen to this any more." In other words, like Mezentian says, establish your boundaries early and often. Because if she is anything like my "crazi and weyrd" relatives, she's always going to be able to come up with something that gets through your carefully designed filter. You just need to have times when you know you won't have to deal with it.
posted by BibiRose at 8:47 AM on August 17, 2012

I just reviewed MonkeyToes's link, and I never, ever realized that so many of those sayings weren't 100% sincere. (A few are obvious, and sometimes tone is clear, but many I have always taken as being totally genuine).

Hello, second-guessing all human interaction! It's not really nice to see you again!

This is why I stand by my suggestion that you just honestly tell her (nicely!) that you're not in agreement with her. What if she takes you at your word?
posted by windykites at 10:29 AM on August 17, 2012

You might try employing my SitCom strategy. I've often thought how odd it is that for entertainment we gladly embrace the most odd and eccentric characters in TV, films and books, and in fact tend to prefer them as protagonists... but when we encounter such folk in real life, they mostly just irritate us, so I try to sort of rearrange my outlook to enjoy the harmless true life eccentrics as adding a fun dimension to my otherwise staid and superboring personal SitCom.

I don't always manage, because sometimes an element of the eccentricity is too oppositional to something that I cherish for my personal quality of life... so I didn't do well, for example, with the wacky former neighbor who, aside from being wacky (in some similar ways to your SIL, in fact) was always intruding on my privacy, completely oblivious to all the (to me) screamingly obvious signals I blasted that this really, really wasn't cool with me. In such cases I usually just pull out my blunt tools, and simply say something like "I'm not really comfortable with X; I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that (with me) any more."
posted by taz at 11:24 AM on August 17, 2012 [1 favorite]

Her crazy beliefs, and all those weird things she says?

They are just thoughts. Less substantial than bubbles in the wind. There's something wonderfully empowering about realizing that you are in control of whether you let other people's thoughts get your goat.

I have relatives and family members with some weird beliefs, ranging from "harmless and well-intentioned" to "nasty mean-spirited bile." When I was 11 or 12, I had an uncle that used to bait me by saying egregiously sexist things, and at one point I realized that his opinions? Just opinions, and didn't matter. Getting mad at the shit he said didn't fix anything, and didn't change anything (other than my blood pressure). More importantly: choosing to not get mad and not engage didn't make the shit he said true or okay. I wasn't the sheriff of Righteous Beliefs who needed to ride around and Stand Up For Truth! at every opportunity. This realization made it about 100 times easier to let other, more well-meaning relatives with kooky beliefs (these crystals will cure cancer! I think Bill Clinton murdered someone in the White House!) just roll off my back. When the intentions are good, I respond to those rather than what they actually said; when it's not something I can respond to at all I just don't.

Anyway. You say that you need a response that "honours my experience of reality" and I think the key is going to be realizing that you don't, actually. Your experience of reality is 100% not affected by her kooky beliefs; failing to rebut her isn't going to result in your reality disappearing. She doesn't have that much power. She's just a sweet older lady with weird beliefs who sometimes says crazy things.
posted by iminurmefi at 11:53 AM on August 17, 2012 [3 favorites]

Seconding iminurmefi's suggestion to regard her thoughts as insubstantial. I would avoid thinking of her perspectives as crazi and weyrd or ridiculous and just see this as the product of, as you say, someone who hasn't thought things through. I would just point out to her the differences in your realities/flaws in her idea and see it as a process of gradually educating her what is involved in thinking through an idea? I suspect the key lesson in this part for you will be patience.

Alternatively can you see the merit in her idea, or try to see where she is heading with it (like for the dog suggestion, she is concerned with his spiritual welfare I'd say) and acknowledge that, and give her an alternative task that would go towards the same purpose (for example helping with the burial/ prepare him for his afterlife somehow)?

It would probably help her if you open her up a bit - like asking "why do you think that?" to get to her good intentions or "how would you go about it?" to get her to realise what is really involved in what she is suggesting.
posted by EatMyHat at 12:35 PM on August 17, 2012

It's not so much her beliefs as her inability to stop herself from saying whatever foolishness comes into her head. Try not to discuss issues that are close to your heart. Keep a mental supply of conversational gambits to redirect her.
Dottie: blah, blah, Stoopid and/or unintentionally hurtful comment.
You: Hey, did you see that the bridge over I-9 is being repaired? That detour is gonna be a pain.
Dottie: blah, blah, Stoopid and/or unintentionally hurtful comment.
You: So, what did your horoscope say this morning?

It sounds like you are fond of her and good to her. How nice.
posted by theora55 at 12:41 PM on August 17, 2012

Update:
Despite all my good intentions, and the helpful advice above, her time here was not succcessful.

My partner (her brother) and I both made the mistake of assuming she had a work ethic and some self-awareness. But we didn't know her as well as we thought. What we thought of as abasement and good intentions turned out to be an unrealistic sense of entitlement (we should give her free rent and not expect her to work), an inability to take personal responsibility for her words and actions (she would deny saying something right after saying it or passive aggressively do the work at a poor standard) and a transparent but well-used liking for manipulation. She even tried, and at times was successful, in causing unpleasant friction between my partner and I. But when when we worked out what she was doing and it came to the crunch, he was 100% on my side and for that I will always be grateful.

Lesson learned.
posted by Kerasia at 5:54 PM on March 15