"Treat him mean to keep him keen"?

August 15, 2012 8:44 PM

I'm a nice, friendly person, not a passive doormat, just... nice. But apparently I need to be a mean bitch. I thought "men love bitches" was just a cliche...

I am a woman in my early 30s. I struggle a lot with dating as it's very seldom that there is mutual attraction between a man and I.

The last 3 men I dated:

1) suddenly announced (while in bed) that he was submissive (in his words, a "pain slut"), and wanted me to seriously hurt him during sex. When I asked him what he had in mind, he just kept repeating "do anything you want!". I had no clue what to do and froze. I have a feeling that he wanted me to just magically turn into a sadistic dominatrix.

2) Kept dropping hints and made remarks about how hot mean women are, mentioning his "crazy psycho bitch" ex and how amazing she was in bed.

3) Flat-out told me that I would be hotter & sexier if I acted meaner and bitchier.

None of them were initially up front with me about this; it was a matter of weeks before they said anything about it. I ended it with all 3 because I don't know how to "just become" a bitch.

Women acquaintances of mine who play games with men, play "hard to get" and have a magical number of dates to wait before sex always seem to have men buzzing around them- they never seem to be single and always have several men interested in them at once. My closer female friends and I, who don't play games (or even understand the concept of playing games) have terrible luck with dating, and have difficulty even meeting single men who are interested in us.

I am totally "GGG", very liberal and irreverent- I'm just not bitchy or mean enough. Is there something about me that attracts these guys? What is it about mean, bitchy women that is so desirable to men?

posted by rose-selavy to human relations (34 answers total)

Some men like this, apparently. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that half of the human race shares a preference.
posted by ellF at 8:49 PM on August 15, 2012 [36 favorites]

Why do boys like to date bitchy, bossy girls?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:51 PM on August 15, 2012

You're basing your theory on ONE guy who said this to you. I'm not sure that's a big enough sample set.

As for the women friends who play games with guys and play hard to get - do you really want a guy who expects you to play games all the time? What if you don't know what game he's playing?

As for waiting to have sex - that's a very, very personal thing. Sometimes it's the right thing to do, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's okay to have sex on the first date (I did that on all THREE of the first dates I had with the three best relationships I've ever had).

Honestly, just be you. You will find the person who is most suited to you BY being you. You'll also find people who aren't suited for you, but that happens to everyone, and you'll get rid of them quicker by being you anyway.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:55 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Dominatrices are not "bitches", and "bitches" are not dominatrices. People do not "just become" sexually dominant. Three is not a statistically significant sample; guys looking to be sexually dominated by women make up probably less than 10% of the straight/bi male population.

Playing games gets you dates with people who are into playing games. If that's not what you're looking for, it seems counterproductive to take up playing games. I think the world would be better off if the Rules girls and the Mystery Method guys just paired up with each other and left the people who just want to connect honestly on the dating scene.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:57 PM on August 15, 2012 [39 favorites]

You've met a few guys with preferences that don't mesh with yours, that's all.
And your game-playing friends who are always dating, are always dating. As in not in relationships. Games are short-term gratification.

There will be a guy who digs liberal irreverent women, and you won't have to change a thing except maybe less clutter on the bathroom sink.

fwiw, I only met my present husband in my mid-thirties. He was worth the wait.
posted by L'Estrange Fruit at 9:00 PM on August 15, 2012 [7 favorites]

I could have written this. Seriously, down to the part of my closest female friends and I being too nice to guys. The last guy I dated had a preference for, "mean, trashy chicks". Pretty much the opposite of moi, and I have no interest in being mean to people, especially not men I am dating and care about. I do NOT understand it, but whatever floats their respective boats.

Good thing there are lots of guys that like nice girls, too. In my experience these guys tend to be a bit shyer and reserved, and in the wild world of dating, sometimes get overlooked. They also require a bit of friendly coaxing to have the confidence to ask a woman out, which often leads them to getting "friend zoned". I'm not saying to go and rummage around your male friends to find someone to date, but keep it in mind when meeting new men.
posted by peacrow at 9:00 PM on August 15, 2012 [9 favorites]

I think you're conflating a lot of separate behaviors into this "mean/bitch" category.

1 didn't ask you to be mean/bitchy. He asked you to cause strong physical sensations because that was his kink. Sadists can be giggly - they aren't all the stereotypical manhater.

2 seems like he wasn't over his ex.

3 wanted you to be meaner and bitchier.

Women acquaintances of mine who play games with men, play "hard to get" and have a magical number of dates to wait before sex always seem to have men buzzing around them

Playing games/waiting is not the same thing as being mean/bitchy.

Also. Men buzzing around, never being single, blah blah - I imagine you probably want quality over quantity and don't enjoy drama, so that's all fine.

I am totally "GGG", very liberal and irreverent- I'm just not bitchy or mean enough. Is there something about me that attracts these guys?

It is possible if you're more aggressive than the average woman in talking about sex/taking the lead in asking men out/stressing your feminist ideals/etc that you'll attract men who prefer a dynamic wherein the woman leads more in the relationship, and then might be disappointed if that's not played out.
posted by vegartanipla at 9:01 PM on August 15, 2012 [21 favorites]

Not all men are like this. I'm not. I don't think most of my male friends who have girlfriends or wives are. Just be yourself and keep looking.
posted by John Cohen at 9:05 PM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

Look, none of these dudes are dudes you want to be with. I mean, guy #1 is maybe just not a great communicator about his sexual needs, and that might be fixable with some good, honest fully-clothed conversations, but guys #2 and #3 are flat out dicks. You are far better off without them. I know you've had a stretch of bad luck, but these guys do not represent the majority of men, and they certainly don't represent a part of the male species that you should be tailoring yourself to. Heck I can think of a few really nice, really cool guys I know off the top of my head who would probably be interested in dating you just based on your MeFi username.
posted by Rock Steady at 9:13 PM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

OK, so your last three boyfriends were submissive in bed and hoped you'd dominate them.

That's not the same thing AT ALL as being a nice person vs. a mean person.

I'm a really nice person, a pushover, actually, and yet can do the "you will kiss me when I tell you to and not a moment before" thing if that's what my partner is into.

I can see this being a turnoff for you. There are plenty of things I'm turned off by, too. But I don't feel that it was mandatory that they warn you about these ever so slight kinks.

If you guys were sexually incompatible, that sucks. Plenty of fish in the sea. Interesting that the last three fish had the same sexual quirk, but c'est la vie, eh?
posted by Sara C. at 9:21 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

Oh, one other thing --

I am totally "GGG", very liberal and irreverent- I'm just not bitchy or mean enough.

This has nothing to do with being mean/nice. But if you kind of broadcast how accommodating of a person you are, if you habitually accommodate people in ways that others might not, especially ways that others might find unpleasant -- then you will find yourself surrounded by more people who are looking to be accommodated, sometimes in ways that most people wouldn't be willing to do.
posted by cairdeas at 9:27 PM on August 15, 2012 [12 favorites]

Yeah, you've got this round the wrong way. You don't have to become anything you don't want to be - instead, you use what people tell you as a filter for who you want to be around.

If a guy's telling you he wants to you dominate him and you don't want to - well, you're not meant to be together.

If a guy can't stop talking about his ex - you're not meant to be together.

If a guy tells you you'd be sexier if you were meaner - see the pattern?

The whole 'men like bitches' thing: What a lot of people - and this goes for men and women - get hooked onto like crack is drama. Some people can't get enough of it. If someone's mean to them - oooh, how do I make her like me? If someone ignores someone - oooh, what can I do to get her attention? She's such a nice person - oooh, how can I make her nasty?

So, it's not really anything you're doing. You just need to learn to use their behaviour as a filter for who you want (and don't want) in your life.
posted by heyjude at 9:33 PM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

Don't change yourself to go about pleasing men. That's not how you should go about dating. Instead, be yourself and keep looking for a guy who fits you. He's likely out there. You just have to be patient and keep looking.

(Also, if S&M sex is not your thing, it's not your thing. Faking interest won't work. Eventually, you'll get tired of faking it and the man you're dating will be angry at you for deceiving him).
posted by bananafish at 9:46 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

You, for whatever reason (I'm inclined to assign "pure dumb luck" to blame) attract natural submissives/masochists.

The critical question is... do you like to inflict pain or to boss men around, or are you interested in becoming "a bitch" because the men you are attracted to enjoy that in the bedroom?

If the latter is the case, hang onto you being nice and sweet... it's an invitation to sexy-pretend-time, not an actual request for you to become ruthless and uncomfortably domineering in the everyday.

It is =entirely= up to you if you are comfortable with playing in sexy-pretend-time as the Evil Queen.

Now, let's break down the failures of the three men you referenced.

1) - He expected you to read his mind rather than negotiate, romantically, what he wanted. Fail.

2) - He expected you to read his mind, and made hints as to how a woman unrelated to your life together could read his mind... he wanted abuse, and wasn't willing to settle for sexy-pretend-time. Mega-fail.

3) - Ah-HA! If he wasn't stupid, he'd preface the request with a dozen roses and a nice candle-lit dinner. He was stupid, so sexy-pretend-time? DENIED.

So, yeah. Be you. Pretend to be someone else in the bedroom only if the guy you're with makes you feel comfortable with it, makes you feel more intimate with him because of it. Don't be afraid to demand he play the lead man in YOUR fantasies as well.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:50 PM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

Maybe you’re projecting something different from who you really are and that’s attracting men who want something else.
posted by bongo_x at 9:52 PM on August 15, 2012

Generally, if somebody acts like a bitch to me (male or female), I try to avoid them. If they cannot be avoided, then I try to find something they care about emotionally and apply pressure until they avoid me.

I strongly advise against being a bitch to people simply because you think it'll draw men to you. It'll also start a lot of unnecessary conflicts, and any guy with a backbone who might otherwise be attracted to your "giving" nature - you know, the person you really are - will utterly hate you. And isn't that pretty sad? To be rejected by somebody who might otherwise love you simply because you're pretending to be something that you're not?
posted by wolfdreams01 at 9:56 PM on August 15, 2012

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I could have been clearer in my post: it was only the one guy who wanted to be dominated. I gave it a try but it was obvious that I was not being harsh enough; he really wanted a lot of pain and a lot of demeaning, abusive talk. I mentioned that I was GGG just to clarify that I would be perfectly fine with a "slight kink", which this was not.
I also didn't want to imply that all dominatrices are bitches; I'm sure nearly all of them are awesome people!
Cairdeas, your comment "the most decisive factor in attracting heterosexual men, by far, is how conventionally attractive you are or not" is totally relevant. I didn't want to bring it up as I didn't want to write an epic-length post, but being/not being conventionally attractive is a big issue as well.
These are just 3 examples... any confusion in my post is probably due to frustration. I can "just be myself", but I also consistently seem to be attracting the same type of man. So I feel like I do need to change, somehow.
posted by rose-selavy at 10:40 PM on August 15, 2012

Cairdeas, your comment "the most decisive factor in attracting heterosexual men, by far, is how conventionally attractive you are or not" is totally relevant. I didn't want to bring it up as I didn't want to write an epic-length post, but being/not being conventionally attractive is a big issue as well.

If this is a bigger issue in play, I think the real problem is just that you have a smaller pool available to you as long as that is an issue. I do not think being more bitchy or doing The Rules or, you know, doing your hair a different way or any of those kinds of things will change that substantially. There are still fantastic people in that smaller pool, but it is just way more work to find them.

You just have to stay yourself and keep putting yourself out there. It may be more work, and more frustrating, but it is absolutely not impossible if you keep at it.
posted by cairdeas at 10:49 PM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

There's a gigantic difference between getting attention from the opposite sex and having a relationship. The "bitches" you're talking about are seeking attention from men. If this is what you want, increase the amount of game behavior.

If you want a boyfriend, I'd point out that takes concerted effort and kissing plenty of frogs.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:54 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Two things:

1. Being sexually dominant, or submissive, or into BDSM from any direction, is a whole different thing from "being a mean bitch" in your general demeanour.

2. I can assure you that many, many men - myself included - hate nothing more than women who play games, or act "mean and bitchy", and most especially if they appear to be a "crazy psycho bitch". That last one would make us run several miles.

You met a couple of guys who had a thing about "mean" women. This is not a good reason to assume all, or even most men are the same. Please continue to be nice, friendly you. Finding a good relationship takes time and patience, but it isn't going to be a good relationship if you're pretending to be something you're not.
posted by Decani at 1:02 AM on August 16, 2012

I was going to say something like what veganartinapla said. You are conflating a number of things here.

1. sexual sadism.
1a. appropriateness/inappropriateness of asking for sexual sadism while in bed with someone you do not know well.
1b. likelihood of encountering inappropriate or unexpected behaviour as acceptable/unacceptable risk of getting into bed with someone you do not know well.
1c. "magic number of dates" as opportunity to observe a man's character and detect compatibility/incompatibility before getting into bed with him.

2. meanness.
2a. people who think meanness is "sexy".
2b. rightness/wrongness of engaging in mean behaviour on grounds of expediency.
2c. giving someone the impression that they will never have to make any effort to please you, either because you're unconditionally happy with everything they ever do, or because you're not important enough to please.

3. game-playing, or, intentional use of tactics to increase attraction.
3a. abusive game-playing, more likely to be described as "manipulation"
3b. playful game-playing, which is also manipulation but less likely to be criticized as such.
3b.i. In practice, you don't see this very often because non-abusive people "don't want to play games," but an example of it is the "help me think up a creative way to pop the question!" posts.
3b.ii. It's my personal opinion that unwillingness to engage in playful game-playing is one reason why nonabusive people can seem "boring" - by refusing to "play games" they may also be showing unawareness that charm can be used for good as well as for evil.

4. boundary-setting
4a. consciously setting boundaries in the earliest interactions to guard against establishing counterproductive behaviour patterns that are hard to reverse later
4a.i. treating innocuous early behaviours as (potentially) thin ends of wedges
4b. see 1b. and 1c. for an example.
4c. cultural prohibition against women setting boundaries, which is why "Why Men Love Bitches" is a forbidden text and "Intimate Connections" is a sacred text.
4c. i. "Why Men Love Bitches" example: woman cooks special birthday dinner for boyfriend, who does not thank her for it, but instead critiques her cooking. She calmly tells him that unless he changes his attitude, she will not cook for him again.
4c. ii. "Intimate Connections" example: girlfriend parades ex-boyfriend in front of author. Author tells her that maybe she and ex-boyfriend are a better match for each other, goes out for the day, meets woman from commune, engages in unspecified sexual hi-jinks with commune-dwellers, comes home to find meek girlfriend wearing long dress, table set for a special dinner she has prepared for him.
4c. iii. The above two examples are biased and unrepresentative, but so are the typical objections to "Why Men Love Bitches" - I don't know if the objections to "Intimate Connections" are biased because I've never seen any on the green even though the content of the former book is not really any more questionable than the content of the latter! Why is that, do you suppose? It's almost as if we lived in a society where women are stigmatized for not wanting to be bullied, whereas men are admired for using emotional manipulation (justifiably or not) to elicit submissiveness/femininity/domesticity from women. Nah, I must have imagined that.
posted by tel3path at 4:42 AM on August 16, 2012 [9 favorites]

Sorry I meant vegartanipla! Vegartanipla, please don't break up with me over calling you by the wrong name!
posted by tel3path at 4:43 AM on August 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

A lot of people seek out high-drama, mean people. I don't really know why, low self-esteem? Masochism? Because the world is a big place and people are weird? This crosses all lines (male/female, gay/straight, etc) and you'll see endless questions here about it along the lines of "I'm a perfectly nice guy/gal, so why is this person choosing to date a mean jerk instead of me?"

But the answer is not to become a high-drama, mean person yourself. Sidhedevil commented way above that "Playing games gets you dates with people who are into playing games." That's very true; I'd add that playing games also gets you dates with straightforward people who will be turned off when they realize you are playing games. ("Wait, you stood me up because you are washing your hair? Again?") In both cases, you lose.

"the most decisive factor in attracting heterosexual men, by far, is how conventionally attractive you are or not"

This (with some caveats around the word "conventionally") is absolutely true for getting attention in a bar, or responses online. Is it true for being in a relationship, though? I can only speak anecdotally, and looking at the people I know and see routinely, the pattern I think is clearest with acquiring a partner is self-confidence, not attractiveness. The conventionality of your attractiveness, or maybe being one "type" versus another, affects how large a pool you are drawing from, but is maybe less of an issue in terms of the outcome.

So I don't think it's the meanness that is drawing in the men as it probably is other factors -- perhaps being attractive, being confident, things like that -- so if you imitate the meanness, you are unlikely to get the same results they are.
posted by Forktine at 5:01 AM on August 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

Before I say this, let me just say up front that this is also something I'm thinking happens my own self (albeit with different personality styles) and that I do:

This is a really, really subtle thing I'm about to suggest, but I'm wondering if the "I only attract guys who want to be dominated" thing may be a tiny bit more of a two-way street than you're thinking? You may attract lots of other kinds of guys, and get overtures from other kinds of guys, but maybe these kind of guys are the only ones whose initial overtures you respond to. This may be totally subconscious, and you may not even know that you're doing it -- but maybe a little of that is going on.

Again, I'm suggesting that as a possibility only because someone pointed almost the same thing out to me -- where I was complaining that I only attracted guys who were like foo, but they pointed out that no, so-and-so who was into me seemed to be like baz, but I hadn't been interested. And it just got me thinking.

Not that I'm saying that this is all your fault or anything, and if you aren't into a guy you aren't into a guy. But it may be something to think about. I've been starting to expand my comfort zone a bit after thinking about that myself, and it has helped a little.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:55 AM on August 16, 2012 [4 favorites]

These are just 3 examples... any confusion in my post is probably due to frustration. I can "just be myself", but I also consistently seem to be attracting the same type of man. So I feel like I do need to change, somehow.

Two things:

1) These men are not the same type of men, as many above me have explained.

2) Why are you framing this in terms of who attracted to you? Who are you attracted to? Maybe you need to assess your attractions rather than worry about "what men want," whatever that is.
posted by murfed13 at 6:11 AM on August 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

As a (relatively) well adjusted dude who loves his wife, I'll throw this out there. Confidence is sexy as hell.

Unfortunately, due to the norms and expectations of our society, it's often very hard to tell the difference between a confident woman and a bitchy one. Don't take any guff off those swine, and consider yourself and your time too valuable to waste. Never let anyone trivialize you and never take yourself for granted.

It'll take you longer to find a guy that way, but I'd expect your long term results to be worth it.
posted by envygreen at 7:11 AM on August 16, 2012

Yeah, you do meet some wackadoodles when you're dating. Dating sucks. I was 38 before I met Husbunny and 39 when we got married. So glad I waited, but hoo...the assholes I dated or lusted after before him.

I think a lot of this could have been avoided if I was more selective up front. Being fat, I always was so excited if anyone showed me attention, that I was ready to work with stuff that I knew in my heart should have been dealbreakers.

My first suggestion is: get higher standards. Even my most beautiful girlfriends had shitty relationships because they settled for guys that weren't worthy of them.

My friend Joe smartly said to me one time, "You get what you settle for."

Don't settle. If a guy doesn't tick all of your boxes, keep looking. Being selective is hot. Imagine being the man you do pick. How special is that?

You're awesome for bailing on these dudes when you did. Chalk it up to experience. I liked meeting people on-line, because you could build a connection with someone and not be judged by your looks, right off. Don't get drawn into a long IM and email courtship though. Just find like-minded guys with similar interests. Meet in real life as soon as you can.

You may be delighted to have chemistry, fall in love and get married. Husbunny and I met in a Daria chat room. We've been married for 10 years now.

Don't rush things, and don't be too hard on yourself if someone you're dating turns out to be a dud. It happens. That's why you date. To find these things out.

Hang in there, it'll happen.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:12 AM on August 16, 2012 [7 favorites]

girlfriend parades ex-boyfriend in front of author. Author tells her that maybe she and ex-boyfriend are a better match for each other, goes out for the day, meets woman from commune, engages in unspecified sexual hi-jinks with commune-dwellers, comes home to find meek girlfriend wearing long dress, table set for a special dinner she has prepared for him.

Just to be clear, that's not what actually happens in the book Intimate Connections. The reason I point this out is that I think its an excellent book and the OP should read it.

In terms of game playing, the book really doesn't suggest that people be bitches. Instead, it says that people are going to follow a few rituals, like testing you and stuff and that you should be ready for that, and on occasion, participate in the rituals.

Here's your problem--some men are into a never-ending chase and drama. It appears you are not. So save the "To My Coy Mistress" act for special or important occasions early in the dating interactions when you're just figuring things out. In fact, I wouldn't do it unless it comes naturally. Instead, volume deal. Date a lot and flirt with a lot of men. Most importantly, don't stick with guys who don't provide you with what you want.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:14 AM on August 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

Having a full life, lots of interests and a social circle in which you feel comfortable means that you don't drop everything when a man calls or expresses interest. That's not " playing games", that's healthy. Being nice and willing can also mean you're a doormat. Men like a challenge, and want a woman who isn't "easy" which has everything to do with how she values herself and nothing to do with how many dates until sex.
If you regularly drop everything to accommodate him, change your plans to suit his schedule and twist yourself into what you think he wants--he'll not value you for being ggg and sweet--he'll let his attention wander to someone who seems " harder to get". You can tell yourslef that these other women are mean game-playing bitches, but maybe they're people who value themselves, don't bend over backwards to please Mr. Right-Now, and have more to do than wait for his tweet.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:54 AM on August 16, 2012 [5 favorites]

I'm with envygreen on this-- confidence is sexy to both sexes. Unfortunately, while some people are confident because they've got their shit together, other people are confident because they fake it well, or they're narcissistic -- they call them confidence-men for a reason.

It's true that some men like the chase.. not my, so I can't claim to understand it, but from what I've seen, these men like their idea of the girl, which doesn't always match the girl. When the chase ends with a catch, that doesn't mean a match is made.

Please don't be a bitch. Speaking as a nice-guy who once believed that finishing last was his lot in life, I can say that you don't need to be a bitch to land a man and, all things being equal, we'll put up with your pecadillos far longer if you're not a bitch. And at the risk of stretching the fishing metaphor, conventional attractiveness is a lure, not the hook. It's also not the only lure.
posted by Sunburnt at 9:22 AM on August 16, 2012 [1 favorite]

I don't mean to harp on the attractiveness subject, but for me it really does affect the pool of men who are available. I'm "approachable" (without being desperate), but am never approached or overtured-to by men (unless you count the rather senile 80-something gentleman a year ago).

So it does matter who is attracted to me, because I don't get dates unless I approach men. Maybe because of this, men tend to think that I must be much more confident and brash than I actually am.

It also causes problems because, as everyone tells me, "men like a challenge", and by asking them out/approaching them I basically remove that challenge. It's not as if I drop everything or bend over backwards for them... in fact I've become paranoid about seeming at all needy or clingy.
posted by rose-selavy at 1:08 PM on August 16, 2012

Men aren't a singular entity. Men are comprised of many individuals.

I would observe, in a collection of random thoughts:

1. As noted by envygreen, some men really dig confidence. And some of those men have yet to learn that there is a difference between confidence/arrogance/perfomative activity that springs from some sort of personality disorder. That can lead to some confusion, for them, for you.

2. Some men like a challenge, because they think it's fun. Some men like a challenge, because they like drama. Some men are tired of the challenge, because they hate having to put themselves out there all the time. Some men have hardcore social anxiety, and will never go out with you unless you ask them to. Some men like for you to initiate some of the time, and for them to initiate some of the time.

3. Getting approached by men, and being asked out on dates, does not correlate directly with your attractiveness. My partner and I were magnetically drawn to each other and twitterpated as all hell when we met, but we spent quite a while platonically hanging out (as the kids say) and doing things with mutual friends and basically being like, "who is this person? I have to know more! DON'T MOVE TOO QUICKLY; S/HE MIGHT BOUNCE AWAY LIKE A SQUIRREL!" and, yeah, from the outside, it might have seemed like we weren't too attracted to each other (or like we were too attracted, and thus frozen in the headlights), but, really, it was all about being mega crushed out, but also being respectful, seeing who the other person really was, feeling things out, and nervously trying to prevent the dreaded bouncing...

4. Some guys like to play games and drag things out and interact with girls in a manner similar to what is outlined in Point 3, but are doing so in some weird, manipulative, playing the field manner. Sorry they throw in noise that confuses them with regular, nice guys; experience might help you ferret out which is which.

5. Some guys approach you directly because they are genuinely attracted to you, and want to date you. And that's nice. Some guys do it because they just want to get laid, or have nothing better to do. That's not so nice.

6. Some dudes like to be dominant in bed. Some like to be dominated. Some like to do both. Some are asexual. Some are into balloons. Some are into feet.

Basically: there are so many guys out there! Some are awesome, some are meh, some are icky, some are psychos you ought to run from. Let's try not to group them into some collective, because that won't work.

What you should do is start asking what you want, how you should live your life, and what behaviors you think are (in)appropriate. Then you should go out and confidently be you. If someone is on board with that, you'll find them; try not to sabotage yourself in the meantime by relying on dating aphorisms that might not have anything real to do with you.
posted by vivid postcard at 1:27 PM on August 16, 2012 [6 favorites]

It's probably the 'you asking them out' thing: maybe you've had a string of passive guys who are looking for a partner who will absolve them from the responsibility of any action at all?

Oh, and I completely disagree on the confidence=bitchy idea. I have had friends who dated women who were vicious, nasty bullies and assholes. This is *not* confidence or assertion, and should not be confused with it. Bitchy people, male and female, are cruel and unkind, and they enjoy hurting others, particularly those who are vulnerable. Strong people are kind people, even if they're blunt or direct.
posted by jrochest at 11:56 PM on August 16, 2012 [2 favorites]

I dated a mean, bitchy woman once. It was because I confused it with confidence. I was just coming off dating an insecure mess with an eating disorder, and I was really attracted to the way that she seemed sure of herself, like he really liked herself, which was refreshing. I quickly found out that I was wrong. She was just mean. And the meanness that I mistook for confidence was actually coming from a place of profound insecurity. I broke up with her pretty quickly.

So I guess what I'm saying is, don't try to change yourself into a mean person to try to attract men. You may get more first dates,but you won't get more fifth dates.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:15 PM on August 17, 2012