Cleaning up my alcoholic sister's poo...

August 15, 2012 6:49 AM

Found my sister yesterday in a poo covered apartment. I had her sent to the hospital (which she was released from 2 weeks ago). She was drinking again but now her apt, carpet, floors, mattress and sofa is covered with poo. I just opened the windows and locked the door when they carted her out. It needs to be cleaned up but should SHE do it or hire someone to do it or should I get it cleaned up and/or present her with the bill? Will a regular cleaning service do this or do I need some sort of specialized service? I've talked to some people and arguments for having me clean it up is: someone out of the hospital really doesn't have the strength to deal with this. arguments against is: she needs to see/be responsible for her life and the results. I don't know what to do. Any thoughts?
posted by CodeMonkey to human relations (45 answers total)

arguments against is: she needs to see/be responsible for her life and the results.

Only seriously mentally ill people let their apartments get covered in shit. You can't bootstrap yourself out of mental illness. Your sister was just in the hospital two weeks ago and now she's back in again? She needs professional mental healthcare before she dies. She isn't living in her own filth just to inconvenience you.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:59 AM on August 15, 2012 [112 favorites]

Try ServPro or some other disaster cleanup service. But consult with her first. Take pictures and show them to her in the hospital and say, "Sis, this needs to be cleaned up. These people will do it, and it will cost about this much. You'll be paying for it. Do you agree?"

If she does, go ahead. If not, talk to the apartment management and see what they want to do -- which I presume will be to call the same people and charge her for it anyway.
posted by Etrigan at 7:00 AM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

Christ. That's horrible.

You'll need a specialized service to do this. Your sister's apartment manager may have a recommendation and they might be able to help with a discount. Or you can inform them, and have her furniture removed and your sister evicted from her apartment, with the bill for the cleaning. I'd recommend this if you believe that it will help her hit bottom faster.

Check to see if you can involuntarily commit your sister to Rehab (there are a few places where you can do this.)

I'm assuming that this is a result of addiction/alcoholism. If she's mentally ill, then she needs to be committed.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:00 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

I agree with the others that this sounds much worse than alcoholism. But back to the question: Hire someone and give her the bill. That apartment is a health hazard and shouldn't be left in that condition for very long (the furniture should just be thrown away, I'm guessing). Even if you wanted her to clean it, I wouldn't be confident that she would actually do it. She'd be more motivated to get away from that place rather than clean it. The consequences for her actions will be paying the bill.
posted by puritycontrol at 7:01 AM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

You should hire someone to do it, if you can possibly afford it, you should pay for it. She is your sister and she needs a lot of help.
posted by stormygrey at 7:01 AM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

You know your sister better than we do, of course. How do you think she would handle being made to clean up the mess? Would she freak out and go right back to drinking again, thus compounding the problem? Would she simply be unable to deal with it and end up depressed and living in highly unsanitary conditions?

If you think either of those scenarios is likely, you need to help her out, either by cleaning it yourself or by hiring a service. There are services that specialize in that sort of cleaning -- you absolutely should not hire a regular cleaning service and expect them to deal with it. Search Google for cleaning services in your area, including the term "human waste" in quotes or "feces" or such, and you should find at least one, depending on where your sister lives. Make sure they specifically say they handle it, or they won't.
posted by cerebus19 at 7:01 AM on August 15, 2012

arguments against is: she needs to see/be responsible for her life and the results.

With all respect to whoever made that argument to you, that is something you say when you're training a dog, not when you're trying to help a family member in a life-threatening crisis.
posted by Sidhedevil at 7:01 AM on August 15, 2012 [38 favorites]

should SHE do it or hire someone to do it

It sounds like you just had your sister committed to a psych ward.

What makes you think she's even going to be able do anything about this? If she was on top of not covering her apartment with poo, she wouldn't be in the psych ward.
posted by valkyryn at 7:02 AM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

Ummmn... IANAA (I Am Not an Alcoholic), but covering an apartment in poo sounds a leeeeetle more like "severe mental illness" than just addiction. I've been in the apartments of people suffering from active narcotics addictions, and they weren't covered in poo.

Nthing the fact that you need a specialized cleanup service if it's that bad. And I wouldn't worry about making your sister confront her actions, or take accountability for them, until she's FAR closer to being in her right mind.
posted by julthumbscrew at 7:02 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

CM, it's hard to judge based on what you've shared.

Is the state of poo that currently exists solely the result of your otherwise capable and competent sister getting herself so blitzed that the she couldn't stumble into the bathroom when necessary, or is it the result of some physical and/or mental illness?

I'd say suck it up and clean it, or pay to get it cleaned, and chalk that effort/expense up towards helping yorur sister. On the very face of this situation it sounds like she has very serious issues that need to be overcome and "shoving her nose in the poo", so to speak, at this point is not going to be productive towards a greater goal.

Having a clean place to come home to from her latest hospital stay, or even having a place to be able to call "home" (is the poo situation bad enough that it could launch eviction action?) is likely going to help your sister far more in the long run than trying to enforce a measure of responsibility right now.
posted by de void at 7:03 AM on August 15, 2012

Sadly, I have experience with a loved one's alcoholism and a poo-covered apartment. It really can just be alcoholism that does this to someone.

If I were in your shoes I would have it professionally cleaned and make her pay for it.
posted by something something at 7:06 AM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

Well, other people presumably live in that building and would probably rather not smell human poop in their daily routines. If the manager smells it, or realizes it, he'll probably evict her.

I'd say get it cleaned up and get yourself some support -- this sounds incredibly trying and I agree that she's not going to be capable of dealing with this herself and also that it sounds deeper than alcoholism. But either way: you need to get some help dealing with that poop and you need some support.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 7:06 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

she needs to see/be responsible for her life and the results.

Someone who lives in a poo-covered apartment isn't in any state to be responsible for her life and the results. She's non compos mentis at this point and will probably need a long hospital and/or inpatient rehab stay. She shouldn't be sent home.

Yes, you want to hire a special cleaning company to clean up because Merry Maids and the like aren't equipped to clean up hazardous substances (which human waste is). Call in a specialty company; you might want to google "hoarder clean up services" to find one that can deal with human waste.

Good luck. You're in a terrible situation and so is your sister. I would do anything to make sure she wasn't released back home. She needs extensive help.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:06 AM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

The other people in the building deserve not to live in a space where one of the units is covered in human excrement. Get it cleaned up by a service that deals with hazardous materials.

And I'm sorry you're in this situation.
posted by xingcat at 7:08 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

This is an immediate health hazard. Making her clean it out of some misguided sense of making her take responsibility is exposing her to physical illness (she is likely mentally ill already). Leave it to professionals with hazmat suits and what not. Deal with the bill later.
posted by desjardins at 7:08 AM on August 15, 2012 [14 favorites]

Fuck the apartment. Someone just out of the hospital with an apartment covered with feces needs to make a return trip to the hospital. Get in contact with her psychiatrist and tell them what happened. Then you can make some tough decisions from there.

And while she's gone get it cleaned up. Address payment much later when she's recovered enough to make rational decisions or eat the costs like a good sister.
posted by inturnaround at 7:09 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

You are doing the best you can, and I am very, very sorry that you've had to deal with this. It must be heartbreaking and infuriating at the same time.

This is a very bad situation, and like many very bad situations, there is no answer that is going to turn it into a good situation, so please don't put that burden on yourself. You didn't create this mess, and you can't fix it.

I suggest going to an Al-Anon meeting and talking to them about this. I'm not sure we can give you good advice here.
posted by the young rope-rider at 7:18 AM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

Also, you already are a good sister. Making sure your sister never feels any discomfort (financial or otherwise) is not necessary for you to be a good sister, okay? She is an alcoholic. She will feel discomfort and sadness as a result of that. Her life will be worse because she is an alcoholic. That is very sad, but again, you can't fix it and make everything better for her, and you don't need to try.
posted by the young rope-rider at 7:22 AM on August 15, 2012 [9 favorites]

Finally--sorry for the multiple post--you just experienced a very real, and probably very frightening trauma. No one should ever have to go through what you just went through. No one should have to see their family member in danger, needing to be taken away and hospitalized. It is a horrible thing that just happened to you. Please be gentle with yourself.
posted by the young rope-rider at 7:25 AM on August 15, 2012 [24 favorites]

Based on my somewhat limited experience with this issue (a few clients who have trashed their house in this fashion and then have to eat the bill as restitution) you are probably looking in the neighborhood of 5 to 10k if you hire a disaster management company like ServPro to do this for you. YMMV.
posted by Happydaz at 7:32 AM on August 15, 2012

A specialty cleaning service is the way to go. She's probably not going to do it or hire someone to do it so if you want it to get done, your best bet would be to set it up and then present her with the bill. Whether she'll actually pay it or not, I cannot say.

I am another person who has direct experience with family members doing this, and yes, the only thing wrong with that family member was alcoholism, but that's kind of like saying that the only thing wrong with the Titanic was a hole in the side. I can't really tell you what to do about her after she gets out of the hospital.

arguments against is: she needs to see/be responsible for her life and the results.

Sooner or later - and only you can be the person who says when this point occurs for you - you're going to reach the point at which it starts to feel like she is bound and determined to either not be helped or to undo any help she is given. You can move her away from the cliff but as soon as you let go of her, she's going to start walking right back towards it. This is a terrifying and sad experience and I'm very sorry you're going through it.

You can help her and you can support her but you cannot fix her. I'm not saying she's hopeless, just that when you reach a point when you feel like you've done enough for her, it's okay to feel that way. Good luck.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:39 AM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

I'm normally a fan of letting people suffer the consequences but this is much more serious. I liked the idea of asking her psychiatrist and/ or getting her readmitted as a first step. In any case someone will have to clean that place - either you or the landlord - and yet the
mess will sink in if it's not done ASAP. I think you are best to arrange it yourself.
Sorry you have to deal with this but good work on being a trooper of a sister- hang in there!
posted by EatMyHat at 7:47 AM on August 15, 2012

arguments for having me clean it up is: someone out of the hospital really doesn't have the strength to deal with this.

arguments against is: she needs to see/be responsible for her life and the results. I don't know what to do. Any thoughts?


Well, I'd say it's pretty extensively clear that someone who shits all over their apartment probably is not in a can-do, solutions-oriented, multi-tasking frame of mind and could use some help with the shit-all-over-the-apartment problem. As another poster says, this isn't just irresponsible alcoholism. It's severe mental illness.

So I'm sorry if this is a little more of a cold water slap than other respondents have offered, but, geez louise, help the poor girl out and get it cleaned up! If at some point she regains her marbles, and isn't destitute, try to get her to pay you back.
posted by Quisp Lover at 7:53 AM on August 15, 2012 [5 favorites]

if she is that far gone she will probably regain the ability to see the consequences of her actions a couple of years after she stops drinking, if she ever does. the disease model of alcoholism is not always appropriate, but under these circumstances she should probably be considered mentally ill/incompetent. if somebody that bad off tells you they understand what they've done and are ready to take responsibility for it, they are lying to you because they can sense what you want to hear.
posted by facetious at 7:54 AM on August 15, 2012

Even if it is "just" alcoholism and not mental illness, my understanding is that SHAME is not only about worthless as a motivational tool in recovery, but that it is actually a de-motivator. In the AA model, the "making amends" steps--which has the power to dredge up all those feelings of shame--are steps 8 and 9, only to be tackled when the person is well into a habit of sobriety.

And I can't think of anything more shameful and shaming than having to clean up your own shit-soiled apartment.
posted by drlith at 8:00 AM on August 15, 2012 [4 favorites]

You need to talk to her doctors about this. It isn't something any of us are actually equipped to judge.

My guess is that if she were in any state to deal with the consequences, she wouldn't have done the actions in the first place, but my opinion isn't worth much. You need professional advice here.
posted by tel3path at 8:02 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

IANAD but I don't think she has any specific mental disorder that isn't alcohol related. She's been drinking for many years and is probably getting close to the end. She can go into the hospital and come out appearing fine but then end up like this quickly. From what I have read here, I'll have her place cleaned up with a biohazard company.
posted by CodeMonkey at 8:09 AM on August 15, 2012

So I really, really get the idea of not enabling people and letting them hit rock bottom and making them take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

However. A feces-encrusted apartment is a health hazard. Letting it sit compounds the problem, and your sister can't address the issue while she is hospitalized. If she comes out of the hospital and is in a better place in terms of sobriety and mental health, it's still unlikely that she's going to be up to dealing with fermented biowaste.

If this is a rental, it's also pretty unfair to the landlord not to address the situation; time is of the essence in dealing with this state of affairs.

Agree, though, that the key advice here is going to come from the people who are responsible for your sister's care. All we can give you is uninvolved third-party perspectives.

I want to second everyone who has said that you deserve kindness and care and patience for being a concerned sibling and for trying to do the right thing by your sister in every way.
posted by Sidhedevil at 8:11 AM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

'Nthing this has gone beyond trying to educate and discipline your sister. And for goodness' sake, don't take pictures and show her. Alcoholics and many mentally ill people are not totally oblivious and would know how far they have sunk. If it needs to be brought up, just talk to her. If in doubt, talk to her doctors about the extent to which she is aware of her situation, and how you can approach her, so your words will reach her.
posted by josefk at 8:15 AM on August 15, 2012

Yet another voice to say you're not alone. It was my Mother instead of sister, but I wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy. I'm in Canada, so the mechanics might work differently, but I suspect the cost is similar. All in it cost me about $5000 CDN, for cleaning and disposal of furnishings.
Memail me if you need a shoulder.
posted by whowearsthepants at 8:22 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

Nthing taking care of yourself. Therapy, a twelve-step group, a caregiver's group, respite for yourself, a day at a spa - anything you can do to recharge.

And no, you are not responsible for your sister's alcoholism. She is the one choosing to drink herself to death. And while I am 100% against codependency and enabling, I don't think your sister is at the point where she can take any responsibility at all. She's an end-stage alcoholic and needs inpatient care and/or custodial care. If she goes back to an apartment situation, she's just going to trash it again or trash the new apartment. She needs some form of sheltered housing.

Agreed that the apartment is certainly creating problems for the neighbors. I'm sure they can smell a poo-covered apartment from next door (ew), and probably have fly and vermin problems too (ew ew). Get a hazardous cleanup crew in - yes, you will probably have to eat the cost, unfortunately. And I'm sure the landlord won't want her back (unless s/he's truly an absentee slumlord type).
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:32 AM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

And I am sorry you are in this situation. I've had to deal with an alcoholic family member and I know it can be depressing and infuriating at the same time, even without the shock of the particular situation. Be kind to yourself and get it over with quickly if you have the funds.
posted by josefk at 8:32 AM on August 15, 2012

My experience was with a grandmother who drank herself down the rabbit hole and it's probably not too comparable. She exacerbated an emphysema condition brought on by a lifetime of smoking and it's impossible to know whether she'd have had that dementia inevitably.

But the point is that just because they get dried out in the hospital doesn't mean they've regained all their senses and judgment. Sometimes that sort of hygiene issue is a result of physical weakness brought on by the extended benders. Think about how weak you are after a week in bed with the flu. Someone who has been drinking to incompetence has that and then some, plus they're dealing with mental withdrawal even if they're past the physical symptoms.

So for better or worse, if you want to try to set her up for success then you probably need to shoulder getting this place back to livable. Either pay a disaster recover company or do it yourself. She's simply not going to be in a position to do it herself. I wouldn't anticipate being able to "make" her pay you back for any expenditures. Either accept that you may never see that money again or find a way to drip into her funds to pay for it. It may not be legal but I'd personally assert that it's ethical.

And as others have said, get yourself some form of support.
posted by phearlez at 8:42 AM on August 15, 2012

Alcoholism is a set of behaviors that is frequently a way that people cope with far more serious feelings/thoughts. Feces all over one's living space is also a behavior that is sometimes a way of coping with far more serious feelings/thoughts. She needs to get treatment for whatever is going on, and needs not to be left in situations where she will get out of the hospital and be alone "but then end up like this quickly." These are signs of chronic mental illness beyond "just" alcoholism.
posted by so_gracefully at 8:57 AM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

The big problem I see is that this sort of behavior may cause your sister to be evicted.

I would talk to the landlord. One, they'll have contacts for professional bio-hazard cleaners and two, you can find out if there is other behavior that's on your landlord's radar. Is she causing any other disturbances that could put her housing in jeopardy?
posted by vespabelle at 9:14 AM on August 15, 2012

The big problem I see is that this sort of behavior may cause your sister to be evicted.

Make that "is very likely to cause your sister to be evicted" unless the landlord either doesn't know or doesn't care (is absentee or a slumlord or both) - and I wouldn't count on that. This goes beyond mere slobby tenant behavior and is almost certainly a just cause for eviction.

Is your sister truly capable of living on her own? If she did lose her apartment (and again, it's very likely unless she has a slumlord) where can she go? Can she go to sheltered care of some kind (inpatient psychiatric care and/or rehab, assisted living, a board-and-care home)?

Don't count on Sister being able to go back to her apartment. The landlord may very well evict her or not let her back in due to the hazardous conditions. If the landlord has notified the Board of Health then it might be declared uninhabitable at least until it's cleaned.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:17 AM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

The big problem I see is that this sort of behavior may cause your sister to be evicted.

This is a good point. However if she's actually getting care for her alcoholism she's got some protection against eviction based on the ADA and HUD.

* Requires housing providers to make reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities. A reasonable accommodation is a change in rules, policies, practices, or services so that a person with a disability will have an equal opportunity to use and enjoy a dwelling unit or common space. A housing provider should do everything s/he can to assist, but s/he is not required to make changes that would fundamentally alter the program or create an undue financial and administrative burden. Reasonable accommodations may be necessary at all stages of the housing process, including application, tenancy, or to prevent eviction.

Emphasis mine. So this is possibly a good argument in favor of professional cleaning; you can demonstrate then that you are taking positive and quality steps to insure that her impact to the property isn't notably worse than any other tenant. If you're doing that then you're in a much better position to push back on possible eviction.
posted by phearlez at 10:24 AM on August 15, 2012

You don't elaborate much on how much help or support you have for yourself. Based on your post it sounds like this situation is not new. Having members within my family with the same disease as your sister, having the support of a therapist and other people who also had experience to assist me with boundaries was invaluable. When my loved ones that drink have a crisis which is inevitable, I already have a set boundary on what I will or will not do and the support there to help me get through it. I cannot tell you if it is acceptable TO YOU to clean up your sister's mess this time, or next time, only you can decide what you can handle. My suggestion is to get help and support for yourself, because I think you deserve help with this too.
posted by heatherly at 10:36 AM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

I've never had to deal with a poo covered apartment, but I have had to deal with a blood covered one (don't ask). I called the (non-emergency) local police, and asked for whatever cleaning services they recommend. They had a short list. One of the companies that did this work also subcontracted at local nursing homes, so you can try calling those places as well as funeral homes for recommendations.
posted by bluefly at 11:28 AM on August 15, 2012 [3 favorites]

Even setting aside the broader issues of her competency and this horrible situation, this is a job for professionals. It's a dangerous biohazard, and it needs to be cleaned and sanitized properly. This isn't the sort of mess you can clean up with a free weekend and a rented carpet shampooer from the grocery store.

If you want to place the burden of responsibility on your sister, make that burden the bill for cleanup. You can try to arrange a payment plan with her. I suspect it will be futile, but at least it's a start.
posted by ErikaB at 12:18 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

phearlez, according to HUD the Fair Housing Act does not protect an individual with a disability whose tenancy would constitute a "direct threat" to the health or safety of other individuals or result in substantial physical damage to the property of others unless the threat can be eliminated or significantly reduced by reasonable accommodation.

That's not to say there's no accommodation to be made, but her disability does not make her immune from eviction based on her behavior.
posted by vespabelle at 2:45 PM on August 15, 2012

If you don't want to be on the hook for what sounds like an extremely expensive cleaning bill, but you do want to ensure something is done about the health hazard, simply alert the landlord. Their insurance may cover the costs. In any case, it will be taken care of, and your sister will be held responsible.

However, if you want to help your sister retain any of her possessions that can be sanitized, you probably should not go down this route, unless you can safely remove items prior to the landlord taking control of the situation.

In any case, make a decision soon. Sorry you and she are dealing with this.
posted by Scram at 4:20 PM on August 15, 2012

I'm sorry for your troubles.

It sounds like a specialist service will have to be hired, and that will be expensive. If it's only been two weeks since her last dry-out, and she's relapsed again, I'm not sure the best thing for everyone isn't just to have your sister give up her apartment and move into some sort of halfway house. She can't be responsible for herself, it's not healthy to live in poo, and it's not fair to the landlord and other renters to have to have be dealing with a feces covered apartment. Not to mention, unless you are independently wealthy, you can't afford to hire Haz-Mat cleaners repeatedly.

This is such a no-win situation.
posted by BlueHorse at 5:40 PM on August 15, 2012 [1 favorite]

just one thing to also think about - when sorting out getting the place cleaned up by a professional emergency cleaning service, keep in mind their rate versus what it would cost to just replace everything that is messed up. Do you have any strong family or friends that could help you wrap the sofa, mattress etc. in plastic and cart it to the dump? Doing that with as much replaceable stuff as possible may help lower your cleaning costs.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 5:57 PM on August 15, 2012 [2 favorites]

the young rope-rider: "Also, you already are a good sister. Making sure your sister never feels any discomfort (financial or otherwise) is not necessary for you to be a good sister, okay?"

Just for clarification: based on the profile name, sounds like this is her brother?

I agree that this sounds like a traumatic experience and that you are a good person for helping your sister. Just note that it may not be realistic for her to pay for the costs of cleaning this unless she somehow has some funds on hand. Based on how messed up her alcoholism is (you say she is near the "end") I question whether she can learn from this or not. It seems like she has absolved responsibility for her life a long time ago. Some kind of rehabilitation program -- which she sticks to instead of going back to drinking -- will help. Harsh life lessons probably won't, even if it grates you to let her make bad choices without suffering the consequences.

If she really is near the end, make sure to share your feelings, both positive and negative, that you are having. Also let her know that you love her. If you have old resentments, try to make peace with her about them.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:32 AM on August 20, 2012