The story of the 3 Monkeys
July 30, 2012 9:32 AM
Torn between being a busy body, saying something so someone can help, or stay the heck out and mind my own business.
Our neighbours, who are renters, have had all their utilities turned off. This in not speculation- this is fact.
There are 3 non working adults and 4 children between 6-16 living there. I feel badly for them & I feel badly for their landlord.
For them, because that must be so hard on the children. For the landlord, because I would hate to have that occurring on my property because of the potential damages.
Winter is coming and that means cracked pipes or heck, even now, with 7 of them still using the restrooms and pitchers of water to flush periodically, could do a good bit of damage to the pipes (this is an older home). Not to mention the fact that there is no longer trash pick up & we are starting to notice a lot of roaches crawling about- but it could just be the summer. Now the electricity has been turned off as well- it is 100+ degrees this week! I can only imagine the conditions in that home.
I don't know if we should get involved. On the one hand, those kids can't be too happy- but what if I call social services and they take the kids & end up somewhere worse. But what if it gets them assistance to get the utilities back on? I thought about giving the landlord a heads up- I have spoken to them in the past so they know who I am- but that seems rather busy body-ish. "Oh hey, just so you know, your tenants have no utilities. Hope that doesn't come back on you!" And just what would they be able to do any way? Or we can just sit back and do nothing and let this all play out on it's own.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Part of me says just leave it all alone. However, I now worry about the health hazards that home poses to ours if they continue to have to live like that. But really, how much longer can things go on like that right? Maybe the landlord already knows and isn't planning on renewing their lease. Maybe they have already applied for public assistance and are waiting on the results.
Our neighbours, who are renters, have had all their utilities turned off. This in not speculation- this is fact.
There are 3 non working adults and 4 children between 6-16 living there. I feel badly for them & I feel badly for their landlord.
For them, because that must be so hard on the children. For the landlord, because I would hate to have that occurring on my property because of the potential damages.
Winter is coming and that means cracked pipes or heck, even now, with 7 of them still using the restrooms and pitchers of water to flush periodically, could do a good bit of damage to the pipes (this is an older home). Not to mention the fact that there is no longer trash pick up & we are starting to notice a lot of roaches crawling about- but it could just be the summer. Now the electricity has been turned off as well- it is 100+ degrees this week! I can only imagine the conditions in that home.
I don't know if we should get involved. On the one hand, those kids can't be too happy- but what if I call social services and they take the kids & end up somewhere worse. But what if it gets them assistance to get the utilities back on? I thought about giving the landlord a heads up- I have spoken to them in the past so they know who I am- but that seems rather busy body-ish. "Oh hey, just so you know, your tenants have no utilities. Hope that doesn't come back on you!" And just what would they be able to do any way? Or we can just sit back and do nothing and let this all play out on it's own.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Part of me says just leave it all alone. However, I now worry about the health hazards that home poses to ours if they continue to have to live like that. But really, how much longer can things go on like that right? Maybe the landlord already knows and isn't planning on renewing their lease. Maybe they have already applied for public assistance and are waiting on the results.
In your place, I would try to give your neighbors the contact information of some public assistance programs or charities that might help with this. I don't know where you live, but if you were in Massachusetts, for example, Joe Kennedy runs a public assistance program called Citizens Energy designed to help lower income families with their heating bills. http://www.massresources.org/citizens-energy.html
Other states undoubtedly have different resources - calling your local government office to make inquiries or even just googling ought to get you some resources. I would not get social services involved just yet until you know what potential outcomes may arise - first, make inquiries to see what public aid is available. I doubt the utilities are turned off for any reason other than poverty, so this family already has enough problems.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 9:40 AM on July 30, 2012
Other states undoubtedly have different resources - calling your local government office to make inquiries or even just googling ought to get you some resources. I would not get social services involved just yet until you know what potential outcomes may arise - first, make inquiries to see what public aid is available. I doubt the utilities are turned off for any reason other than poverty, so this family already has enough problems.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 9:40 AM on July 30, 2012
Stop this: " but what if I call social services and they take the kids & end up somewhere worse"
First, social services is not going to just take the children unless there is abuse and/or neglect going on. Poverty is not abuse. Poverty is not neglect. Letting filth pile up, however, is abusive. That being said, social services will work with the family before removing the children.
Second, foster families are vetted, trained and go through background checks before they are licensed and children are placed with them. The background checks include criminal and driving records. The vetting process also checks the health of the foster parents (physicals) AND inspections of the potential foster homes. In many jurisdictions, this means that the fire marshal in addition to the case worker evaluating the family inspects the property. There are minimal requirements for safety features in addition to space requirements that the homes have to meet. For example, in state, there is a requirement that a bedroom for the foster children has a minimum of 75 square feet available space for the first child and 50 square feet for each additional child. Children can only share a room if they are siblings. Siblings can only share a room if they are of the same gender or if both children are under 5 years of age.
I'm sorry, but your comment about "somewhere worse" is propagating an ugly stereotype that may have been common several decades ago. And yes, you can find a cases that speak to that even today. They are shameful and embarrassing to the vast majority of licensed, good foster homes that take in the hundreds of thousands of foster children each year.
I'm a foster mom.
posted by onhazier at 9:45 AM on July 30, 2012
First, social services is not going to just take the children unless there is abuse and/or neglect going on. Poverty is not abuse. Poverty is not neglect. Letting filth pile up, however, is abusive. That being said, social services will work with the family before removing the children.
Second, foster families are vetted, trained and go through background checks before they are licensed and children are placed with them. The background checks include criminal and driving records. The vetting process also checks the health of the foster parents (physicals) AND inspections of the potential foster homes. In many jurisdictions, this means that the fire marshal in addition to the case worker evaluating the family inspects the property. There are minimal requirements for safety features in addition to space requirements that the homes have to meet. For example, in state, there is a requirement that a bedroom for the foster children has a minimum of 75 square feet available space for the first child and 50 square feet for each additional child. Children can only share a room if they are siblings. Siblings can only share a room if they are of the same gender or if both children are under 5 years of age.
I'm sorry, but your comment about "somewhere worse" is propagating an ugly stereotype that may have been common several decades ago. And yes, you can find a cases that speak to that even today. They are shameful and embarrassing to the vast majority of licensed, good foster homes that take in the hundreds of thousands of foster children each year.
I'm a foster mom.
posted by onhazier at 9:45 AM on July 30, 2012
Seconding wolfdreams01. I also sympathize with not wanting to see the situation compound because the family doesn't know what resources are available to them. If there's a fix that's not too complicated, everybody benefits so maybe see what you can find out about financial supports. Then give them the information and wash your hands. Anything else will only cause you and the family more problems.
posted by dry white toast at 9:46 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by dry white toast at 9:46 AM on July 30, 2012
Sorry onhazier, I really meant no offence. You are right, I am propagating an ugly stereo type. I apologize.
posted by MayNicholas at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by MayNicholas at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2012
This must be a bit of a uncomfortable dilemma for you.
For me, the objective and blanket rule in this instance would be to come at it from the "for the children" angle, especially the younger ones. It's not a choice I would want to make, or would be able to make easily, but perhaps talk to/call a social worker or someone in a Children's Welfare office and ask what they suggest to do with regards to the children, perhaps even in a "hypothetical" situation without giving direct info, if possible.
With regards to the utilities/other landlord's property, I'd stay out of that, that would be a bit busy-bodyish, and not really one's place to chime in.
I recently moved into a housing complex where my neighbors have a two large holes in their roof, no utilities, and have been living like this for over 5 years. I felt quite terrible about their unfortunate situation until I talked to the neighbors on the other side who mentioned that at one point the community had come together and given the couple $5,000 to fix their roof, but obviously nothing was done.
It's a bit strange, and uncomfortable at times, especially when they sneak my water from the outside spigot, but I'm just a renter, and I don't plan to stay forever, so I maintain friendly politeness, and stay out of their way.
posted by Debaser626 at 9:49 AM on July 30, 2012
For me, the objective and blanket rule in this instance would be to come at it from the "for the children" angle, especially the younger ones. It's not a choice I would want to make, or would be able to make easily, but perhaps talk to/call a social worker or someone in a Children's Welfare office and ask what they suggest to do with regards to the children, perhaps even in a "hypothetical" situation without giving direct info, if possible.
With regards to the utilities/other landlord's property, I'd stay out of that, that would be a bit busy-bodyish, and not really one's place to chime in.
I recently moved into a housing complex where my neighbors have a two large holes in their roof, no utilities, and have been living like this for over 5 years. I felt quite terrible about their unfortunate situation until I talked to the neighbors on the other side who mentioned that at one point the community had come together and given the couple $5,000 to fix their roof, but obviously nothing was done.
It's a bit strange, and uncomfortable at times, especially when they sneak my water from the outside spigot, but I'm just a renter, and I don't plan to stay forever, so I maintain friendly politeness, and stay out of their way.
posted by Debaser626 at 9:49 AM on July 30, 2012
I will be honest... I would be afraid to just walk up to them and give them a list of resources. They kind of scare me. They scream at they kids all the time and are usually using the F-bomb and other colourful vocabulary when yelling at each other or other neighbours.
posted by MayNicholas at 9:55 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by MayNicholas at 9:55 AM on July 30, 2012
*their not they*
posted by MayNicholas at 9:56 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by MayNicholas at 9:56 AM on July 30, 2012
I'm going to go aganst the grain here and suggest calling social services anonymously.
You don't know what the situation is with the kids but not having electric suggests that food storage and preparation is compromised. The adults may choose to live that way, but the kids don't have a choice.
Does any of this impact you? Are the bugs becoming a problem for you? If I were the landlord, I'd for sure want to know. An infestation is something that's going to cost me money to remediate, as will burst pipes, mold and who knows what all else is going on over there?
Are seven people supposed to be living in that residence? Is it a code violation?
I feel for folks who are having a hard time, but at some point you have to do what you have to do and get on public assistance. Get the food stamps, section 8 and everything else that can help you get back on your feet and help you to provide for the children.
Stay anonymous, but get someone in there to investigate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:56 AM on July 30, 2012
You don't know what the situation is with the kids but not having electric suggests that food storage and preparation is compromised. The adults may choose to live that way, but the kids don't have a choice.
Does any of this impact you? Are the bugs becoming a problem for you? If I were the landlord, I'd for sure want to know. An infestation is something that's going to cost me money to remediate, as will burst pipes, mold and who knows what all else is going on over there?
Are seven people supposed to be living in that residence? Is it a code violation?
I feel for folks who are having a hard time, but at some point you have to do what you have to do and get on public assistance. Get the food stamps, section 8 and everything else that can help you get back on your feet and help you to provide for the children.
Stay anonymous, but get someone in there to investigate.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 9:56 AM on July 30, 2012
They kind of scare me. They scream at they kids all the time and are usually using the F-bomb and other colourful vocabulary when yelling at each other or other neighbours.
Imagine how the kids feel. Second Ruthless Bunny.
posted by klanawa at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2012
Imagine how the kids feel. Second Ruthless Bunny.
posted by klanawa at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2012
I honestly would not talk directly to the family offering names of services, etc: I think the odds of it backfiring horribly are far too high. Like Ruthless Bunny I would contact social services anonymously if you are worried about the children. It's all very well to stay out of people's business when they are adults, but children are a different matter. And that's that social services are for: to assess situations and (hopefully) offer some help before things go too far. It's not being a busy body; it's being a concerned person. And if things have gone too far, then it's right that they should act.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 10:02 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by lesbiassparrow at 10:02 AM on July 30, 2012
I would also suggest phoning it in, if you are legitimately concerned that the kids are not in a good situation. I also think it's appropriate to give the landlord a heads up on the situation. If I was the landlord I would want to know, and the landlord will probably have to be involved if social services or rent assistance ends up being needed.
posted by Forktine at 10:03 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by Forktine at 10:03 AM on July 30, 2012
Thank you for the apology. I hope I didn't come across as harsh. We just try to bat that stereotype down every time it pops up. Most people don't think about foster care and what goes on with it unless it directly impacts them.
With regards to the children, you're witnessing verbal and psychological abuse, especially if this is the primary mode of communication directed at the kids. While poverty is not abuse, the stresses of poverty will push some "at-risk" families into abusive behaviors. I agree with Ruthless Bunny and ask you to call social services in your area. They will take the call and evaluate the needs of the family. There is a lot of things they will do to try to keep the family together including helping them file for food stamps and directing them to available services.
If the children are removed from the home, DO NOT blame yourself. It was not your decision to remove the children. You are just bringing a bad situation to someone's attention.
posted by onhazier at 10:04 AM on July 30, 2012
With regards to the children, you're witnessing verbal and psychological abuse, especially if this is the primary mode of communication directed at the kids. While poverty is not abuse, the stresses of poverty will push some "at-risk" families into abusive behaviors. I agree with Ruthless Bunny and ask you to call social services in your area. They will take the call and evaluate the needs of the family. There is a lot of things they will do to try to keep the family together including helping them file for food stamps and directing them to available services.
If the children are removed from the home, DO NOT blame yourself. It was not your decision to remove the children. You are just bringing a bad situation to someone's attention.
posted by onhazier at 10:04 AM on July 30, 2012
Not having electricity also means people are more likely to use candles or oil lanterns for light, and camp stoves or barbecue grills for cooking, all of which are fire hazards (well, the grill less so if it's used outdoors rather than in). Some municipalities prohibit power shut-offs for this reason, and from what I know, all power companies and/or states offer some sort of low-payment plan. Since this is a rental, it may be the landlord who stopped paying the bill and not the tenants.
Social services isn't going to come yank the kids out in five minutes unless there's a lot of evidence of outright abuse - agencies are just too overworked. They will make an assessment and may be able to get the family its electricity back, at the very least.
posted by rtha at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2012
Social services isn't going to come yank the kids out in five minutes unless there's a lot of evidence of outright abuse - agencies are just too overworked. They will make an assessment and may be able to get the family its electricity back, at the very least.
posted by rtha at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2012
I remember the day one of the little girls was sitting out front by a tree and her friend came from down the street and asked if she was ok. One of the women that live in the house started yelling for her to Get the F*** in the house. She just sat there looking miserable.
The landlord thinks that it is just one woman and her special needs child living there. The LL has no idea the women has 3 more kids & 2 of her friends living there.
Of course I would also be afraid they would find out it was us getting involved.
posted by MayNicholas at 10:06 AM on July 30, 2012
The landlord thinks that it is just one woman and her special needs child living there. The LL has no idea the women has 3 more kids & 2 of her friends living there.
Of course I would also be afraid they would find out it was us getting involved.
posted by MayNicholas at 10:06 AM on July 30, 2012
Every lease I have ever signed has had an occupancy limit AND a clause requiring I maintain utility service. You could call the landlord on those grounds.
But it would probably be kinder to call social services first. They should be fairly well trained in not indicating you made the report (and honestly, if some random passer-by or the landlord called they'll still suspect you, so it's not like not reporting it prevents that from happening), can get them utility assistance, perhaps housing assistance for the extra tenants, before this becomes an eviction situation.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2012
But it would probably be kinder to call social services first. They should be fairly well trained in not indicating you made the report (and honestly, if some random passer-by or the landlord called they'll still suspect you, so it's not like not reporting it prevents that from happening), can get them utility assistance, perhaps housing assistance for the extra tenants, before this becomes an eviction situation.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2012
Figure out a way to get the landlord involved. It's his property and there's an occupancy limit on it for a reason. Send the landlord an anonymous letter if you have to. But this is something he needs to be on top of.
I used to be a High School teacher and I got social workers involved on a lot of situations. (One special needs kid came to school with a backpack full of roaches). These things are like icebergs. You're only seeing 10% of the problem. Imagine the horror of what you don't see.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:33 AM on July 30, 2012
I used to be a High School teacher and I got social workers involved on a lot of situations. (One special needs kid came to school with a backpack full of roaches). These things are like icebergs. You're only seeing 10% of the problem. Imagine the horror of what you don't see.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:33 AM on July 30, 2012
There are a lot of things that I would see as lease violations!
1) no utilities. We require tenants have keep the power on.
2) unauthorized guests. Everyone's got to be on the lease and we have occupancy limits (although 7 people would be fine in a 3 bedroom unit.)
3) disturbances. Screaming profanities and disturbing the neighbors definitely a violation.
As a landlord, I would rather hear about this now than when the police came to tell me my unit had burned down because the tenants were cooking their meals over a fire created from the wood trim and that there was sewage filling the basement.
posted by vespabelle at 10:39 AM on July 30, 2012
1) no utilities. We require tenants have keep the power on.
2) unauthorized guests. Everyone's got to be on the lease and we have occupancy limits (although 7 people would be fine in a 3 bedroom unit.)
3) disturbances. Screaming profanities and disturbing the neighbors definitely a violation.
As a landlord, I would rather hear about this now than when the police came to tell me my unit had burned down because the tenants were cooking their meals over a fire created from the wood trim and that there was sewage filling the basement.
posted by vespabelle at 10:39 AM on July 30, 2012
Mind your own business. You only know that this family is not the Brady Bunch. If they're kicked out of the house, what then? It sounds awful and far from ideal, but mind your own business. You might make things worse.
posted by discopolo at 10:40 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by discopolo at 10:40 AM on July 30, 2012
When you call social services, it's not like a big red button you push that says "INVESTIGATE THIS FAMILY." You will call and talk to an intake person, and you'll say, "Look, I don't know exactly what's going on, but there are 3 unemployed adults and 4 children living next door with no water and no electricity. I'm pretty sure the unit isn't rated for that occupancy, but my main concern is that without water or air conditioning, someone could get very sick." They'll ask you some questions, you can tell what you know about the loud arguing, and their people will decide what to do. In my state, they'd probably send out a social worker to investigate the situation and help the family get their utilities turned back on or get appropriate housing. They do NOT take the children unless there's abuse.
In other words, you're not just siccing child welfare authorities on them; you're talking to an intake specialist who takes your report and asks appropriate questions to get the pertinent information on the situation that you can provide, and then makes decisions about what sort of professional to send to the situation, if one is warranted. Your report can absolutely be anonymous. You can emphasize your concerns about anonymity and they will make note of it.
I'm not involved with child welfare but I did my state's mandated reporter training, and I found it very reassuring to understand the process that happens when you call, and that you're simply making a report -- they decide whether to investigate, how to investigate, what to do next. You DON'T have to know it's child abuse; you're not making that decision. You're just giving a heads-up that something you're uncomfortable about is happening with minors and you want to make sure that someone is looking out for the kids.
If you are seeing roaches and their trash isn't being picked up, that's pretty bad. I would probably call code enforcement about that part, personally, but especially if you have a relationship with the landlord I don't think there's any reason NOT to call the landlord.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:42 AM on July 30, 2012
In other words, you're not just siccing child welfare authorities on them; you're talking to an intake specialist who takes your report and asks appropriate questions to get the pertinent information on the situation that you can provide, and then makes decisions about what sort of professional to send to the situation, if one is warranted. Your report can absolutely be anonymous. You can emphasize your concerns about anonymity and they will make note of it.
I'm not involved with child welfare but I did my state's mandated reporter training, and I found it very reassuring to understand the process that happens when you call, and that you're simply making a report -- they decide whether to investigate, how to investigate, what to do next. You DON'T have to know it's child abuse; you're not making that decision. You're just giving a heads-up that something you're uncomfortable about is happening with minors and you want to make sure that someone is looking out for the kids.
If you are seeing roaches and their trash isn't being picked up, that's pretty bad. I would probably call code enforcement about that part, personally, but especially if you have a relationship with the landlord I don't think there's any reason NOT to call the landlord.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:42 AM on July 30, 2012
Tell the landlord, there's a good chance they'll have the utilities turned back on while sorting this out to protect the house which is a win for the kids.
posted by fshgrl at 10:43 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by fshgrl at 10:43 AM on July 30, 2012
Mind your own business. You only know that this family is not the Brady Bunch. If they're kicked out of the house, what then? It sounds awful and far from ideal, but mind your own business. You might make things worse.
I can't even get my head around this. The chances of making things worse, -3, the chances of making things better, +500
It's not even a toss up.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:44 AM on July 30, 2012
I can't even get my head around this. The chances of making things worse, -3, the chances of making things better, +500
It's not even a toss up.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:44 AM on July 30, 2012
Please call social services. Honestly, it can only improve the situation for those children. Their welfare is more important than our social conditioning to not interfere.
posted by annsunny at 10:50 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by annsunny at 10:50 AM on July 30, 2012
Please call social services. It is not your job to analyze the situation in great depth - it is their job.
It's also a good idea to tell the landlord. In at least some places, the landlord is on the hook for utilities AND late fees/reconnection fees if the tenants don't pay. Plus damage cleanup, etc.
posted by SMPA at 10:55 AM on July 30, 2012
It's also a good idea to tell the landlord. In at least some places, the landlord is on the hook for utilities AND late fees/reconnection fees if the tenants don't pay. Plus damage cleanup, etc.
posted by SMPA at 10:55 AM on July 30, 2012
and her special needs child living there
What you described in your first post would be enough for me to make an anonymous call, but this really pushes things even further over the line. This child needs spedical supports, and if even basic needs for shelter are compromised and you know that the children are being verbally abused, I'd be really concerned about the quality of care s/he is receiving. Please make the report. The trained professionals on the other end of the line will make sure this family is getting the assistance they need.
posted by goggie at 11:02 AM on July 30, 2012
What you described in your first post would be enough for me to make an anonymous call, but this really pushes things even further over the line. This child needs spedical supports, and if even basic needs for shelter are compromised and you know that the children are being verbally abused, I'd be really concerned about the quality of care s/he is receiving. Please make the report. The trained professionals on the other end of the line will make sure this family is getting the assistance they need.
posted by goggie at 11:02 AM on July 30, 2012
Yeah. I'm with Ruthless Bunny. I really can't get my head around 'mind your own business' on this one.
Call DHS - or social services. They will be able to connect the family with area resources to help pay utilities. In my line of work I've called DHS 5-6 times for cases very similar to this and the children were never removed from the home. In all of the cases DHS worked with the families to get the utilities back on. Sometimes they mandated parenting classes, family counseling, substance abuse treatment or other such support services. It's actually scary how much abuse and neglect has to be happening in a home for DHS to remove children.
The landlord does not have to find out. You may not be able to call anonymously in that you can withhold your name from DHS, but you will be able to report without the family knowing it was you.
posted by space_cookie at 11:04 AM on July 30, 2012
Call DHS - or social services. They will be able to connect the family with area resources to help pay utilities. In my line of work I've called DHS 5-6 times for cases very similar to this and the children were never removed from the home. In all of the cases DHS worked with the families to get the utilities back on. Sometimes they mandated parenting classes, family counseling, substance abuse treatment or other such support services. It's actually scary how much abuse and neglect has to be happening in a home for DHS to remove children.
The landlord does not have to find out. You may not be able to call anonymously in that you can withhold your name from DHS, but you will be able to report without the family knowing it was you.
posted by space_cookie at 11:04 AM on July 30, 2012
I would call social services, and the landlord, in a heartbeat. To heck with being a busybody - the welfare of the children is most important, and somewhere below that (but still up there) is the right of the landlord to not have his house damaged/infested/dirtied to the point that it would require excessive cleaning. The right of these adults to live this life, affecting so many other people with their poor choices, falls somewhere dramatically below this.
posted by PGWG at 11:12 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by PGWG at 11:12 AM on July 30, 2012
You only know that this family is not the Brady Bunch.
Looking very strictly at the established facts:
-The OP knows that the children are living in a home with without running water or electricity.
-The OP knows that the children are living in an unsanitary cockroach-infested home.
-The OP knows that the children are living in a home without food refrigeration or working toilets in 100+ degree heat.
-The OP has witnessed the children experiencing verbal abuse (having the F-Bomb screamed at them.)
There is an gulf about the size of the Grand Canyon between being "not the Brady Bunch," and being a special needs child living in a cockroach infested home without running water or electricity, having adults scream obscenities at you.
OP, I think this is very clearly a situation where the family needs help from CPS. You would not be being a busybody at all to call them.
posted by cairdeas at 11:28 AM on July 30, 2012
Looking very strictly at the established facts:
-The OP knows that the children are living in a home with without running water or electricity.
-The OP knows that the children are living in an unsanitary cockroach-infested home.
-The OP knows that the children are living in a home without food refrigeration or working toilets in 100+ degree heat.
-The OP has witnessed the children experiencing verbal abuse (having the F-Bomb screamed at them.)
There is an gulf about the size of the Grand Canyon between being "not the Brady Bunch," and being a special needs child living in a cockroach infested home without running water or electricity, having adults scream obscenities at you.
OP, I think this is very clearly a situation where the family needs help from CPS. You would not be being a busybody at all to call them.
posted by cairdeas at 11:28 AM on July 30, 2012
I'm sorry, I just can't agree with the idea that you should "mind your own business." If the children next door to you are in danger, that is everyone's business. And yes, 100 degree temperatures without any kind of air conditioning, fans or cold drinks can totally be dangerous for children, especially if they have compromised immune systems due to less than adequate nutrition. (Strong possibility if they don't have a working fridge or microwave.) That is exactly how people die during heat waves. You're right to be concerned. Look out for your own safety -- but please intervene if you can.
posted by crackingdes at 11:35 AM on July 30, 2012
posted by crackingdes at 11:35 AM on July 30, 2012
Calling for help is the right thing to do.
I know a lot of answers are making it sound like you'd be nuts to not call, but don't feel stupid for this not being an obvious call (not that you do, but just in case.) There are a lot of things about our culture that make us feel like we should mind our own business so it can sometimes be confusing what to do when things like this come up.
posted by smirkyfodder at 11:47 AM on July 30, 2012
I know a lot of answers are making it sound like you'd be nuts to not call, but don't feel stupid for this not being an obvious call (not that you do, but just in case.) There are a lot of things about our culture that make us feel like we should mind our own business so it can sometimes be confusing what to do when things like this come up.
posted by smirkyfodder at 11:47 AM on July 30, 2012
I don't think you're being a busy body -- you're getting the ball rolling so that help can be had. If you're noticing these things then it's gotten real bad.
posted by amanda at 12:00 PM on July 30, 2012
posted by amanda at 12:00 PM on July 30, 2012
I am a mandated reporter. One thing an investigator told me about calling social services that made me feel a lot better about it not being the TAKE THE KIDS button is that even if a report is not acted on, it's kept on file. There could have been another report made on this family that was not acted on for whatever reason and your new report might just tip the scales toward investigation. Likewise, even if they don't act on your report, in the future someone else might make another report on this family that together with yours is enough to make them take action.
Imagine the kids go back to school and one of their teachers files a report that a child is dirty and smelly. Don't you want that child's file to already have your report in it?
posted by that's how you get ants at 12:32 PM on July 30, 2012
Imagine the kids go back to school and one of their teachers files a report that a child is dirty and smelly. Don't you want that child's file to already have your report in it?
posted by that's how you get ants at 12:32 PM on July 30, 2012
Along one of my favorite bike routes, I cycle past at least fifty homes without electricity or running water. I will see the entire family on the porch, three or more generations all together, and in buildings so small that each person has to have less than 50 sq ft of space to themselves. Apparently none of this breaks any rules if they can prove to be somehow related. Sometimes there is smoke coming from the backyard as they burn up their trash. That is also allowed. I learned to adjust the parameters of my reality accordingly.
If anything, these people might be inclined to report me for cycling by myself through 100F heat index.
So going back through the content of your post(s):
--no electricity (depends on the lease, but not necessarily breaking any rules)
--no running water (ditto)
--lots of related people living together (ditto)
--no trash pickup (depends on local ordinances, no proof of dumping/littering)
--being unemployed (does not break any rules)
--kids not in school (school not in session, possibly home schooled)
--roaches (unclear, potential public nuisance)
--screaming at kids (vague, parental perogative)
--use of "F" bombs (unclear, potential public nuisance)
--vigorously ordering kid away from strangers (parental perogative)
--special needs child (vague)
--landlords' relationship with tenants (speculation)
I wouldn't do anything based on the situation as it has been presented.
And this is coming from someone who has actually called APS in the past when I saw evidence of elder abuse.
posted by 99percentfake at 12:40 PM on July 30, 2012
If anything, these people might be inclined to report me for cycling by myself through 100F heat index.
So going back through the content of your post(s):
--no electricity (depends on the lease, but not necessarily breaking any rules)
--no running water (ditto)
--lots of related people living together (ditto)
--no trash pickup (depends on local ordinances, no proof of dumping/littering)
--being unemployed (does not break any rules)
--kids not in school (school not in session, possibly home schooled)
--roaches (unclear, potential public nuisance)
--screaming at kids (vague, parental perogative)
--use of "F" bombs (unclear, potential public nuisance)
--vigorously ordering kid away from strangers (parental perogative)
--special needs child (vague)
--landlords' relationship with tenants (speculation)
I wouldn't do anything based on the situation as it has been presented.
And this is coming from someone who has actually called APS in the past when I saw evidence of elder abuse.
posted by 99percentfake at 12:40 PM on July 30, 2012
My water got shut off for a few days once, a long time ago. My ex refused to pay the bill (I had lost my job). The city notified the cops, who came to my door. I sent them to my ex's apartment across town. They told him to pay up or be in violation of the law.
So if the toilets won't flush there could be some code violation. Also, there are usually resources for emergency funds for electric bills. Don't put yourself in harm's way, but do call your city and ask for information if nothing else. Maybe they will offer to call for you.
I personally would also tell the landlord, as I have no problem going to landlords and letting them know my neighbors are violating the rules. Too bad. I pay rent too and yes, there are kids involved, so do it. Call someone. If they retaliate, call the cops.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 12:42 PM on July 30, 2012
So if the toilets won't flush there could be some code violation. Also, there are usually resources for emergency funds for electric bills. Don't put yourself in harm's way, but do call your city and ask for information if nothing else. Maybe they will offer to call for you.
I personally would also tell the landlord, as I have no problem going to landlords and letting them know my neighbors are violating the rules. Too bad. I pay rent too and yes, there are kids involved, so do it. Call someone. If they retaliate, call the cops.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 12:42 PM on July 30, 2012
Yeah, in my neighborhood, your right to neighborly privacy ends when you start screaming obscenities at children in the yard.
posted by General Tonic at 12:43 PM on July 30, 2012
posted by General Tonic at 12:43 PM on July 30, 2012
I vote for calling CPS.
I'm sure there are a ton of child abuse and neglect victims out there who are not only resentful of their caregivers, but who wonder how their community could continue to do nothing about it when it had to be obvious because incidents were repeatedly happening in broad daylight in full view of their neighbors.
Please don't be party to the tacit message being sent to these kids that this is okay. I can guarantee that if you call CPS, the person on the other end of the phone is not going to say, "Mind your own business."
posted by alphanerd at 12:44 PM on July 30, 2012
I'm sure there are a ton of child abuse and neglect victims out there who are not only resentful of their caregivers, but who wonder how their community could continue to do nothing about it when it had to be obvious because incidents were repeatedly happening in broad daylight in full view of their neighbors.
Please don't be party to the tacit message being sent to these kids that this is okay. I can guarantee that if you call CPS, the person on the other end of the phone is not going to say, "Mind your own business."
posted by alphanerd at 12:44 PM on July 30, 2012
Imagine yourself as one of those children. Then do what you would want done if you were them.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:30 PM on July 30, 2012
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:30 PM on July 30, 2012
99percentfake, yes the situation is "vague... unclear... depends... speculation... not necessarily breaking any rules..." From her position, the poster cannot know whether actual abuse or neglect is going on, and it's not her job to find out. Investigating these claims is the job of CPS, and they will know exactly what laws are being broken, if any.
MayNicholas, (and everyone else, I guess) please do not think you have to be 100% sure before you make a report. CPS investigators spend all day every day checking out these situations, and it's their job to determine whether abuse or neglect exists, not yours. Your job is to report suspected, not definite abuse.
posted by that's how you get ants at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2012
MayNicholas, (and everyone else, I guess) please do not think you have to be 100% sure before you make a report. CPS investigators spend all day every day checking out these situations, and it's their job to determine whether abuse or neglect exists, not yours. Your job is to report suspected, not definite abuse.
posted by that's how you get ants at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2012
I think the problem here is attitude. MayNicholas, I was particularly struck by your comment early on in the hypothetical talk with the landlord: "Oh hey, just so you know, your tenants have no utilities. Hope that doesn't come back on you!"
Maybe you are just joking, but I, as a landlord, would be appalled if anyone said something to me in that way. I would prefer an honest "For safety reasons, I thought it would be appropriate to contact you and let you know what I've observed." and then let the landlord decide how best to deal with that aspect of the problem. Necessary details only, and certainly no value judgements about tenants/neighbors is warranted.
Being a busy body is not a good virtue, but being someone who is genuinely interested in the health, safety and welfare of other people IS a good virtue. You can bring attention to problems without being critical of the people it involves.
I've been faced with a somewhat similar dilemma myself in the past. I used to have a neighbor across the street who I knew to be a convicted felon (drug offenses) who used to lock his child out of the house all the time. I thought that was weird, but I didn't call any child welfare authorities simply because of my lousy opinion of his parenting skills (and that my parents would have given me a key to our house in a similar situation). I didn't feel it necessary to act out my ego on people I barely know and absent of a clear legal violation of the child's welfare and safety, there is no reason to me to impose myself on the lives of others simply because they live rather differently for me.
Think long and hard about how you can do GOOD by any phone calls or contact you make with any authorities (landlord, City officials, CPS) and keep your personal opinions to yourself while making your reports. The more simple and direct "This appears to be a problem and thought you should know." is the most effective way to make change for the better.
posted by kuppajava at 2:00 PM on July 30, 2012
Maybe you are just joking, but I, as a landlord, would be appalled if anyone said something to me in that way. I would prefer an honest "For safety reasons, I thought it would be appropriate to contact you and let you know what I've observed." and then let the landlord decide how best to deal with that aspect of the problem. Necessary details only, and certainly no value judgements about tenants/neighbors is warranted.
Being a busy body is not a good virtue, but being someone who is genuinely interested in the health, safety and welfare of other people IS a good virtue. You can bring attention to problems without being critical of the people it involves.
I've been faced with a somewhat similar dilemma myself in the past. I used to have a neighbor across the street who I knew to be a convicted felon (drug offenses) who used to lock his child out of the house all the time. I thought that was weird, but I didn't call any child welfare authorities simply because of my lousy opinion of his parenting skills (and that my parents would have given me a key to our house in a similar situation). I didn't feel it necessary to act out my ego on people I barely know and absent of a clear legal violation of the child's welfare and safety, there is no reason to me to impose myself on the lives of others simply because they live rather differently for me.
Think long and hard about how you can do GOOD by any phone calls or contact you make with any authorities (landlord, City officials, CPS) and keep your personal opinions to yourself while making your reports. The more simple and direct "This appears to be a problem and thought you should know." is the most effective way to make change for the better.
posted by kuppajava at 2:00 PM on July 30, 2012
Thank you everyone for all the thoughtful replies.
If I do decide to call social services (still not 100%) what do I even say since I don't know the names of the folks who live there? Just give them the address? I have seen a county car there before, but I am not sure why they were there.
As far as the hypothetical mention to the landlord- yes, that was meant to be a joke on just how absurd I would feel calling just to 'tattle'.
I have spoken to my family to get advice and they keep telling me to stay out of it and it will sort itself out. I am just so torn. I would love to see these folks just move so I don't have to think about this any more, but these kids seem nice and I feel like they aren't being given a fair shot.
posted by MayNicholas at 2:24 PM on July 30, 2012
If I do decide to call social services (still not 100%) what do I even say since I don't know the names of the folks who live there? Just give them the address? I have seen a county car there before, but I am not sure why they were there.
As far as the hypothetical mention to the landlord- yes, that was meant to be a joke on just how absurd I would feel calling just to 'tattle'.
I have spoken to my family to get advice and they keep telling me to stay out of it and it will sort itself out. I am just so torn. I would love to see these folks just move so I don't have to think about this any more, but these kids seem nice and I feel like they aren't being given a fair shot.
posted by MayNicholas at 2:24 PM on July 30, 2012
If I do decide to call social services (still not 100%) what do I even say since I don't know the names of the folks who live there?
There has already been a lot of great advice in this thread as to what to say to CPS.
Personally, I would go with Eyebrows McGee's script above:
For what it's worth, I 100% think you should call in this situation. If the kids are truly OK, nothing bad will happen to them. If the kids aren't OK, you're a hero. Please call.
posted by phunniemee at 2:38 PM on July 30, 2012
There has already been a lot of great advice in this thread as to what to say to CPS.
Personally, I would go with Eyebrows McGee's script above:
Look, I don't know exactly what's going on, but there are 3 unemployed adults and 4 children living next door with no water and no electricity. I'm pretty sure the unit isn't rated for that occupancy, but my main concern is that without water or air conditioning, someone could get very sick.It's nonjudgmental, it relates the facts, it shows that you're concerned (which you have every right to be), and kind of also says "this is what's happening but I really don't want to get more involved than this." Give them the address, tell them you don't know their names, and tell them you'd like to remain anonymous. You could also give them the landlord's contact information which would help them ID the family.
For what it's worth, I 100% think you should call in this situation. If the kids are truly OK, nothing bad will happen to them. If the kids aren't OK, you're a hero. Please call.
posted by phunniemee at 2:38 PM on July 30, 2012
You need to call CPS/DHS. Go with the script above. Seriously. If I were your friend and you relayed the facts to me as you have here, and told me you didn't have the nerve to call, I would w/o hesitation make the call myself. I really believe all adults have a responsibility to speak up for children who can't do that for themselves. You have an opportunity here to potentially prevent an escalation on tragedy.
posted by OsoMeaty at 2:48 PM on July 30, 2012
posted by OsoMeaty at 2:48 PM on July 30, 2012
I agree with the language above. I would also add the information about the adults screaming the F-word at the kids. It might not make a difference, but I think it helps make the story more complete.
posted by McPuppington the Third at 3:36 PM on July 30, 2012
posted by McPuppington the Third at 3:36 PM on July 30, 2012
(Sorry, I'm not sure that was clear. I agree with calling CPS and using the language above and adding the info about the adults screaming at the kids.)
posted by McPuppington the Third at 3:36 PM on July 30, 2012
posted by McPuppington the Third at 3:36 PM on July 30, 2012
Me, I'd call social services, stat and not the landlord. Whatever is going on, it's hard to see homelessness improving it. I know that is probably doing the dude who owns the place a disservice, but if the kids are still living there, it's hard to see eviction proceedings as helpful to them, other than getting social services involved. Which your actions will hopefully do w/o an eviction, so.
posted by angrycat at 4:22 PM on July 30, 2012
posted by angrycat at 4:22 PM on July 30, 2012
Please, please call.
If the children are removed, you might wonder if it was a bad choice, but you would also very well know that it could have been the best thing to happen to them, given they the social worker will see many, many things that you don't.
If you don't call, and a child dies, you will know for sure that you saw, and did nothing.
posted by Ausamor at 6:10 PM on July 30, 2012
If the children are removed, you might wonder if it was a bad choice, but you would also very well know that it could have been the best thing to happen to them, given they the social worker will see many, many things that you don't.
If you don't call, and a child dies, you will know for sure that you saw, and did nothing.
posted by Ausamor at 6:10 PM on July 30, 2012
Hmm. I don't know. This certainly isn't an ideal situation for anyone. But please do be cautious, because it will take caution to make things better, and it'd be relatively easy to make things worse. The family does need real help, but there may be less help out there than you'd expect.
Suppose you called the city. In Oakland, if you called the city to say that trash is piling up in the yard, they're going to give the owner around 30 days to move it, and then they'll start levying fines in the $1000-2500 range. Maybe the landlord will prevent that fine by removing the trash themselves, but how often can that happen before the landlord evicts them? So, sure, trash is not healthy for children, but being evicted would likely be worse. What would they do? Would they live in their car?
Suppose instead you drove by in a pickup truck and called out "I'm taking these old paints to the dump. Do you have anything you want me to take? Want to just throw in those bags there?" That would cost you some dump fees, but then you'd have addressed the trash issue without making anything worse. That'd be offering real help. I don't know how you feel about that idea.
I do recommend you call the landlord. Particularly listen to see if they turned off the utilities due to unpaid rent, which is not legal in many places.
posted by slidell at 11:25 PM on July 30, 2012
Suppose you called the city. In Oakland, if you called the city to say that trash is piling up in the yard, they're going to give the owner around 30 days to move it, and then they'll start levying fines in the $1000-2500 range. Maybe the landlord will prevent that fine by removing the trash themselves, but how often can that happen before the landlord evicts them? So, sure, trash is not healthy for children, but being evicted would likely be worse. What would they do? Would they live in their car?
Suppose instead you drove by in a pickup truck and called out "I'm taking these old paints to the dump. Do you have anything you want me to take? Want to just throw in those bags there?" That would cost you some dump fees, but then you'd have addressed the trash issue without making anything worse. That'd be offering real help. I don't know how you feel about that idea.
I do recommend you call the landlord. Particularly listen to see if they turned off the utilities due to unpaid rent, which is not legal in many places.
posted by slidell at 11:25 PM on July 30, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by something something at 9:34 AM on July 30, 2012