Please give me advice on talking about gender identity with my amazing (butch) ladyfriend
July 25, 2012 5:14 PM Subscribe
I would love to have a productive and insightful conversation with my butch ladyfriend about her gender identity, but my unhelpful reactions when we talk and her reticence to talk about what has mostly been painful experiences is making it hard for us. Can you give me advice on how to have that conversation and give me some insight into why I'm making it so hard?
First, about me: I grew up tomboyish but eventually settled into what could be labeled femme, although I don't take that label too seriously. I developed at a very young age (elementary school) and have attracted a lot of unwanted attention from men since that age, and not a lot of attention for my sexual orientation because to the majority of people, I look straight. Basically, I feel squarely accepted by most women because of the way I dress and my interests, while my partner doesn't feel that acceptance from most women or men.
Since she was young, many people have assumed she was male and she has felt excluded from the typical female experience, although she proudly identifies as female regardless of what many people see as a masculine appearance. (She wears men's clothing as a matter of practicality, being very tall and finding the clothes to fit better, but actually I have no idea of she prefers it that way). She has said that it feels like women think she's too masculine and men think she's too feminine (and attribute the worse attributes of both genders to her), so she's felt like she didn't belong from a young age. Talking about this is painful for her, but she wants to share and I very much want to know.
She takes being asked questions as me actively listening, but when she talks to me about her gender identity I tend to just ache for hearing about her painful experiences, and I feel put on the spot to ask insightful questions, and we both end up defensive and fight-y. I can't think of a good reason to explain why it's so hard for us, but I suck at this after two years of amazing conversations with this woman! I have told her how I feel exactly as I am describing it here, and she knows I care and I know she's trying to share with me, but we just don't seem to be doing all that well at it.
I really would love to stop being so anxious about saying the right thing when we talk about something that is fundamental to her. She's not one to share without being drawn out. I want to make this easier for us both. I'm an over-sharer, so I don't need much prompting to spill my guts!
I want to ask questions like, how do you feel when people call you sir? Do you ever want me to correct people for you? Do you wish you could present a more feminine side to yourself but don't know how to do so? (That one especially seems pretty patronizing, but sometimes I get the sense that she wishes she hadn't been excluded from a lot of typical beauty rituals a lot of women just take for granted, and I'd be happy to share, but somehow asking just seems insulting.) Should I just ask these questions already without worrying if they're the right ones, or can you think of some ones that may lead to a greater understanding between us?
Your own experiences as someone who straddles the world between male and female would be helpful, as well as other advice that might help is welcomed and appreciated! (We're open to couples counseling, but I would love other suggestions that I can start to put into practice now.)
First, about me: I grew up tomboyish but eventually settled into what could be labeled femme, although I don't take that label too seriously. I developed at a very young age (elementary school) and have attracted a lot of unwanted attention from men since that age, and not a lot of attention for my sexual orientation because to the majority of people, I look straight. Basically, I feel squarely accepted by most women because of the way I dress and my interests, while my partner doesn't feel that acceptance from most women or men.
Since she was young, many people have assumed she was male and she has felt excluded from the typical female experience, although she proudly identifies as female regardless of what many people see as a masculine appearance. (She wears men's clothing as a matter of practicality, being very tall and finding the clothes to fit better, but actually I have no idea of she prefers it that way). She has said that it feels like women think she's too masculine and men think she's too feminine (and attribute the worse attributes of both genders to her), so she's felt like she didn't belong from a young age. Talking about this is painful for her, but she wants to share and I very much want to know.
She takes being asked questions as me actively listening, but when she talks to me about her gender identity I tend to just ache for hearing about her painful experiences, and I feel put on the spot to ask insightful questions, and we both end up defensive and fight-y. I can't think of a good reason to explain why it's so hard for us, but I suck at this after two years of amazing conversations with this woman! I have told her how I feel exactly as I am describing it here, and she knows I care and I know she's trying to share with me, but we just don't seem to be doing all that well at it.
I really would love to stop being so anxious about saying the right thing when we talk about something that is fundamental to her. She's not one to share without being drawn out. I want to make this easier for us both. I'm an over-sharer, so I don't need much prompting to spill my guts!
I want to ask questions like, how do you feel when people call you sir? Do you ever want me to correct people for you? Do you wish you could present a more feminine side to yourself but don't know how to do so? (That one especially seems pretty patronizing, but sometimes I get the sense that she wishes she hadn't been excluded from a lot of typical beauty rituals a lot of women just take for granted, and I'd be happy to share, but somehow asking just seems insulting.) Should I just ask these questions already without worrying if they're the right ones, or can you think of some ones that may lead to a greater understanding between us?
Your own experiences as someone who straddles the world between male and female would be helpful, as well as other advice that might help is welcomed and appreciated! (We're open to couples counseling, but I would love other suggestions that I can start to put into practice now.)
Best answer: Man, your sample questions made me twitch, which is probably useful. Let me see if I can break it down a little.
- "How do you feel about..." questions are always really hard to answer unless the answerer is really in a mood to wax philosophical. I would generally lean away from these unless you are both pretty high.
- "Do you want me to correct people when they call you "sir"?" is a much better one. (However, don't be surprised or disappointed if she says no - I get called sir regularly and the irritation of being misidentified is peanuts compared to the tedium/embarrassment of having to deal with the other party's red-faced apologies.)
- A broad, open-ended question like "Do you wish you could present a more feminine side to yourself but don't know how to do so?" is likely to cause her to shut down and/or feel attacked (as it seems like you have discovered.) Instead, say "Hey, do you want to try this eyeshadow I got?" or "I was thinking about a spa weekend for us - does that sound like fun?" Or at most general, "Do you want me to show you some stuff I know about makeup/take you shopping for girly clothes/whatever?" Specific questions like that can be a springboard for more general conversations, but should give you a grounding so that it doesn't get too interrogation-y.
I am spitballing based on the fact that you say these conversations go poorly and you've got a particular kind of question in all your examples - I could be mistaken. But not everyone is really prepared to talk about their inner feelings in general terms on command, and sticking to specifics is a good way to work around that.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:36 PM on July 25, 2012 [8 favorites]
- "How do you feel about..." questions are always really hard to answer unless the answerer is really in a mood to wax philosophical. I would generally lean away from these unless you are both pretty high.
- "Do you want me to correct people when they call you "sir"?" is a much better one. (However, don't be surprised or disappointed if she says no - I get called sir regularly and the irritation of being misidentified is peanuts compared to the tedium/embarrassment of having to deal with the other party's red-faced apologies.)
- A broad, open-ended question like "Do you wish you could present a more feminine side to yourself but don't know how to do so?" is likely to cause her to shut down and/or feel attacked (as it seems like you have discovered.) Instead, say "Hey, do you want to try this eyeshadow I got?" or "I was thinking about a spa weekend for us - does that sound like fun?" Or at most general, "Do you want me to show you some stuff I know about makeup/take you shopping for girly clothes/whatever?" Specific questions like that can be a springboard for more general conversations, but should give you a grounding so that it doesn't get too interrogation-y.
I am spitballing based on the fact that you say these conversations go poorly and you've got a particular kind of question in all your examples - I could be mistaken. But not everyone is really prepared to talk about their inner feelings in general terms on command, and sticking to specifics is a good way to work around that.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:36 PM on July 25, 2012 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Have you asked her what she wants from you about this? Is it something that she is really ready to talk about?
Does she have good friends who are masculine-of-center (that seems to be the hipster catchall term right now)? Or good male friends who are femme? Or trans friends? I think I really started having productive conversations about my gender identity not with my partner (because that was too intense for both of us) but with a close friend who was beginning the process of transitioning.
It does not feel very good to have people see you as a poor battered baby, or as really freakish. Even if you identify strongly as an outsider and recognize some of the stuff you've gone through, it can be really painful to have someone else validate that yes, your experience was freakish and damaging. I don't like talking about gender stuff with my partner (who is much cis-er than I and has had much more typical experiences) because I end up feeling like a pitiful orphan of the storm. I end up feeling gross and withdrawn, even though I talk about gender stuff all the time on the internet and with certain friends. This is not because of anything my partner does wrong. It's just that our experiences are so different that it is easier for me to process my thoughts and feelings with someone else first.
As far as the "have you ever wanted to be more feminine" business - I have no idea what your partner thinks or feels, but I know that for me I did not want to be more feminine, but I wanted to work through the question of femininity. That is, I am pretty solid in my masculine-of-centerness but I got here by experimenting with and rejecting a lot of dress/make-up/hair stuff, learning that I could do it, and putting it aside. So it was really a complicated question - much more about "I wish I didn't feel like a gender failure" than "I wish I could be feminine". Your partner might be interested in all kinds of girl stuff without actually wishing to change her gender presentation, that's what I'm saying.
I do think it's reasonable to ask if your partner wants your support in terms of correcting people about her gender, etc.
Being misgendered really used to shake me because I felt like a gender failure. I used to dread being taken for a man. Now I don't care in the slightest because I've worked through my feelings of failure. A lot of this was just time passing, but another lot was reading a lot of queer/genderqueer/trans stuff on the internet and being around lots of really visibly queer people. Like, I recognize my body and gender presentation as normal-queer now in a way I didn't before - this isn't about being out, it's about being around people and places where you feel normal for a long enough time that you get used to feeling normal. Are there resources your partner would particularly appreciate? Movies? The internet? Is there a queer youth center or something where she could volunteer?
posted by Frowner at 5:41 PM on July 25, 2012 [12 favorites]
Does she have good friends who are masculine-of-center (that seems to be the hipster catchall term right now)? Or good male friends who are femme? Or trans friends? I think I really started having productive conversations about my gender identity not with my partner (because that was too intense for both of us) but with a close friend who was beginning the process of transitioning.
It does not feel very good to have people see you as a poor battered baby, or as really freakish. Even if you identify strongly as an outsider and recognize some of the stuff you've gone through, it can be really painful to have someone else validate that yes, your experience was freakish and damaging. I don't like talking about gender stuff with my partner (who is much cis-er than I and has had much more typical experiences) because I end up feeling like a pitiful orphan of the storm. I end up feeling gross and withdrawn, even though I talk about gender stuff all the time on the internet and with certain friends. This is not because of anything my partner does wrong. It's just that our experiences are so different that it is easier for me to process my thoughts and feelings with someone else first.
As far as the "have you ever wanted to be more feminine" business - I have no idea what your partner thinks or feels, but I know that for me I did not want to be more feminine, but I wanted to work through the question of femininity. That is, I am pretty solid in my masculine-of-centerness but I got here by experimenting with and rejecting a lot of dress/make-up/hair stuff, learning that I could do it, and putting it aside. So it was really a complicated question - much more about "I wish I didn't feel like a gender failure" than "I wish I could be feminine". Your partner might be interested in all kinds of girl stuff without actually wishing to change her gender presentation, that's what I'm saying.
I do think it's reasonable to ask if your partner wants your support in terms of correcting people about her gender, etc.
Being misgendered really used to shake me because I felt like a gender failure. I used to dread being taken for a man. Now I don't care in the slightest because I've worked through my feelings of failure. A lot of this was just time passing, but another lot was reading a lot of queer/genderqueer/trans stuff on the internet and being around lots of really visibly queer people. Like, I recognize my body and gender presentation as normal-queer now in a way I didn't before - this isn't about being out, it's about being around people and places where you feel normal for a long enough time that you get used to feeling normal. Are there resources your partner would particularly appreciate? Movies? The internet? Is there a queer youth center or something where she could volunteer?
posted by Frowner at 5:41 PM on July 25, 2012 [12 favorites]
Response by poster: Wow, these answers are already so amazing that I started tearing up reading them. Thank you so much. I want to answer one thing that seems important before stepping back out of the conversation.
Frowner: yes, she has empathetically told me that she really wants to talk to me about this, although she hasn't talked about it with anyone before. (I mentioned that I thought maybe talking about this stuff with folks who have had more of her conversation would be helpful, and she agreed, but also would like to have those conversations with me...I get what you're saying, though.)
I'm willing to wait our lifetimes if she's not ready to share. I just want to be smarter about talking about it when we do.
posted by thesocietyfor at 6:07 PM on July 25, 2012
Frowner: yes, she has empathetically told me that she really wants to talk to me about this, although she hasn't talked about it with anyone before. (I mentioned that I thought maybe talking about this stuff with folks who have had more of her conversation would be helpful, and she agreed, but also would like to have those conversations with me...I get what you're saying, though.)
I'm willing to wait our lifetimes if she's not ready to share. I just want to be smarter about talking about it when we do.
posted by thesocietyfor at 6:07 PM on July 25, 2012
Best answer: when she talks to me about her gender identity I tend to just ache for hearing about her painful experiences, and I feel put on the spot to ask insightful questions
Sometimes it can be hard when people reflexively have that reaction to your life experience.
It's especially crazymaking because a well-meaning and fair person knows that, yeah, people are going to have a hard time hearing about sucky stuff that happened in the past. Most people have the same two or three ways of behaving when confronted with that stuff, which makes it feel extra weird. Almost like they're being fake, or it's a cliche, or they're not really listening but just reacting HARD so they don't have to hear anymore?
Which is not AT ALL me telling you you're doing the wrong thing. It's just tough. Sometimes I feel like nothing anybody said or didn't say would ever come off well in the Talking About The Bad Times conversation.
I think sometimes it's better to just listen, and not go overboard trying to convey how SORRY you are, and how much it must SUCK to live through those experiences.
I don't think you should feel put on the spot to ask questions. There's nothing wrong with just saying, "That's so terrible it's hard for me to hear. I care so much about you and hate that you're unhappy," or the like.
Based on some of the questions you mentioned that you'd like to ask, I'll also suggest that you ask those questions independently of Big Horrible Venting Session. In that context, they sound like you trying to fix her or negate a part of her experience.
But what if you just asked questions like that casually, at other times? What if you guys just had a casual convo about gender? As someone who struggles with femininity (even though I'm not explicitly butch), I think I'd rather talk about it while joking around about Pinterest, nail polish colors, and gender conformity. Not while relating some humiliating experience where I failed to pass as the gender I identify as.
posted by Sara C. at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
Sometimes it can be hard when people reflexively have that reaction to your life experience.
It's especially crazymaking because a well-meaning and fair person knows that, yeah, people are going to have a hard time hearing about sucky stuff that happened in the past. Most people have the same two or three ways of behaving when confronted with that stuff, which makes it feel extra weird. Almost like they're being fake, or it's a cliche, or they're not really listening but just reacting HARD so they don't have to hear anymore?
Which is not AT ALL me telling you you're doing the wrong thing. It's just tough. Sometimes I feel like nothing anybody said or didn't say would ever come off well in the Talking About The Bad Times conversation.
I think sometimes it's better to just listen, and not go overboard trying to convey how SORRY you are, and how much it must SUCK to live through those experiences.
I don't think you should feel put on the spot to ask questions. There's nothing wrong with just saying, "That's so terrible it's hard for me to hear. I care so much about you and hate that you're unhappy," or the like.
Based on some of the questions you mentioned that you'd like to ask, I'll also suggest that you ask those questions independently of Big Horrible Venting Session. In that context, they sound like you trying to fix her or negate a part of her experience.
But what if you just asked questions like that casually, at other times? What if you guys just had a casual convo about gender? As someone who struggles with femininity (even though I'm not explicitly butch), I think I'd rather talk about it while joking around about Pinterest, nail polish colors, and gender conformity. Not while relating some humiliating experience where I failed to pass as the gender I identify as.
posted by Sara C. at 6:39 PM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Man, this sounds tough. She has something really sensitive to discuss but needs help being drawn out to talk about it. But the experiences she describes leave you so stricken that you can't play that role well. You feel like she has an expectation that you can't meet (perhaps because it's true) or feel anxious that you will unintentionally not say the "right" things (perhaps because it's true), and ultimately, you both end up frustrated.
I do think you're smart to consider a couples therapist as a solution. Even for just a few sessions, this could be extremely valuable. Therapists are great when both people have strong feelings that need heard. The therapist can draw out each person's feelings, often while the other person is too overwhelmed by their own emotions to do that. And after hearing you both, they can facilitate a conversation between the two of you about what one another is saying. Having a therapist there would take the pressure off of you to respond correctly, because the therapist would help her get the sympathy and active listening that she needs. And the therapist would help your own emotional reaction be heard as well.
But okay, you don't currently have a therapist, so here is a quick brainstorm of other approaches:
- Just take turns talking? You talk for 5 minutes, she talks for 5 minutes. Pre-agree that the other person will [be silent / only reflect back what they heard the other person say]?
- Communicate in writing about it?
- Read books or watch movies together and talk about the characters?
Good luck. Your desire to communicate better with your partner is inspiring.
posted by salvia at 6:43 PM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
I do think you're smart to consider a couples therapist as a solution. Even for just a few sessions, this could be extremely valuable. Therapists are great when both people have strong feelings that need heard. The therapist can draw out each person's feelings, often while the other person is too overwhelmed by their own emotions to do that. And after hearing you both, they can facilitate a conversation between the two of you about what one another is saying. Having a therapist there would take the pressure off of you to respond correctly, because the therapist would help her get the sympathy and active listening that she needs. And the therapist would help your own emotional reaction be heard as well.
But okay, you don't currently have a therapist, so here is a quick brainstorm of other approaches:
- Just take turns talking? You talk for 5 minutes, she talks for 5 minutes. Pre-agree that the other person will [be silent / only reflect back what they heard the other person say]?
- Communicate in writing about it?
- Read books or watch movies together and talk about the characters?
Good luck. Your desire to communicate better with your partner is inspiring.
posted by salvia at 6:43 PM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: It sounds like sometimes you don't know what to say during these conversations. I think that's fine. I know that I prefer to share things like painful childhood stories in as comforting place as possible -- in the dark, in my partner's arms, preferably. Setting it up that way, you don't have to worry about expression and you just have to hold her tight, you don't have to say anything, just listen. Good luck.
posted by Margalo Epps at 6:45 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by Margalo Epps at 6:45 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm not a woman, I'm not trans, I'm not gay, I'm way far off all of that. But I am a human being, and I can feel it when someone is willing to extend themselves to me, to open themselves up in trying to come to understand things about me, things I am trying to express. One of my brothers, he just pays real close attention, not that we talk about matters of gender or sexuality but rather just that he wants to know me -- me -- not me as an extension of him, not me as a family member, but me, as I am, not just in relation to him. (Though that, too.) He pays attention when we talk, whether it's about my yoga practice or his horses or family or just whatever else it might be.
We do talk about gender when we talk about horses.
In love? In a love relationship? Oh, damn -- it's so hard. Not there at the first, not in that initial flush of "Oh Sugar-Sweetie-Punkin-Pie you're just so damn darling, I love everything about you!" blah blah blah -- not then, but later, once you've both found out that the other has flaws and fears and problems and real live opinions and experiences of their very own, discrete from any that've been shared. A Stand-Alone Life as it were. That's lots harder, it's where love really lives, the real kind, or so it seems to me.
Two of my ex-girlfriends come right to mind as I write this, both absolutely attentive, awake, present. I suspect I'm a fool for not grabbing on ... No, I did grab on -- for not holding on, that was/is the fuckup in either/both of these, esp the last. It seems I've a loose grip, I cannot do well what you are doing now, though I've sure tried. Which is how I know how difficult it is.
But you're doing it. I felt happy for your sweetie -- and for you -- as I read your question, seems that you are definitely *in* that relationship, willing to ... Suffer, really, is what it is, though that's damn sure not a romantic word, almost certainly not ever going to make it onto any valentine card. But it's what you're willing to do, suffer your discomfort, and hers, as you open to her, and hope that she'll open to you.
So my hope is that you'll keep listening attentively, that you'l' keep standing there, not shying away. She'll feel that -- she *does* feel that -- and in time she'll open more. And then more. Or not -- maybe it'll be as frowner has described, and she'll open to others, and not to you -- but even then, she could perhaps tell you why it's safer with them, on these issues; that's pretty damned intimate, that's pretty close to home, that's opening to you, even if it's opening to say why she can't open in some ways.
I admire you.
Good luck.
posted by dancestoblue at 7:07 PM on July 25, 2012 [5 favorites]
We do talk about gender when we talk about horses.
In love? In a love relationship? Oh, damn -- it's so hard. Not there at the first, not in that initial flush of "Oh Sugar-Sweetie-Punkin-Pie you're just so damn darling, I love everything about you!" blah blah blah -- not then, but later, once you've both found out that the other has flaws and fears and problems and real live opinions and experiences of their very own, discrete from any that've been shared. A Stand-Alone Life as it were. That's lots harder, it's where love really lives, the real kind, or so it seems to me.
Two of my ex-girlfriends come right to mind as I write this, both absolutely attentive, awake, present. I suspect I'm a fool for not grabbing on ... No, I did grab on -- for not holding on, that was/is the fuckup in either/both of these, esp the last. It seems I've a loose grip, I cannot do well what you are doing now, though I've sure tried. Which is how I know how difficult it is.
But you're doing it. I felt happy for your sweetie -- and for you -- as I read your question, seems that you are definitely *in* that relationship, willing to ... Suffer, really, is what it is, though that's damn sure not a romantic word, almost certainly not ever going to make it onto any valentine card. But it's what you're willing to do, suffer your discomfort, and hers, as you open to her, and hope that she'll open to you.
So my hope is that you'll keep listening attentively, that you'l' keep standing there, not shying away. She'll feel that -- she *does* feel that -- and in time she'll open more. And then more. Or not -- maybe it'll be as frowner has described, and she'll open to others, and not to you -- but even then, she could perhaps tell you why it's safer with them, on these issues; that's pretty damned intimate, that's pretty close to home, that's opening to you, even if it's opening to say why she can't open in some ways.
I admire you.
Good luck.
posted by dancestoblue at 7:07 PM on July 25, 2012 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Having loaded conversations is always difficult, especially when you really care for the person in question. I absolutely hate discussing painful parts of my past with lovers not just because it hurts me, but because they begin to mirror my hurt and then I feel bad for hurting them, and it feeds off of itself in a cycle. With friends, family, people I am not in love with, this is sooo much easier.
Have you tried toning down the intensity in these conversations? I don't mean by shying away from the subject but by changing your body language, your mode of interaction, so that your feelings become less overwhelming. I find the best solution, for myself, is to have these conversations without eye contact - so either in the dark, or while playing a video game side by side, etc.
Also, have you spoken to your partner about what kind of questions are off limits in these discussions? Do you know if a simple generic prompt can continue the momentum of the conversation until you find a question you want to ask? Ask your partner if it's ok if you take a second to collect your thoughts. Take the pressure off yourself to ask The Most Insightful Question Possible and ask what comes to mind instead, or simply make a sound to indicate you're still listening.
posted by buteo at 7:16 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Have you tried toning down the intensity in these conversations? I don't mean by shying away from the subject but by changing your body language, your mode of interaction, so that your feelings become less overwhelming. I find the best solution, for myself, is to have these conversations without eye contact - so either in the dark, or while playing a video game side by side, etc.
Also, have you spoken to your partner about what kind of questions are off limits in these discussions? Do you know if a simple generic prompt can continue the momentum of the conversation until you find a question you want to ask? Ask your partner if it's ok if you take a second to collect your thoughts. Take the pressure off yourself to ask The Most Insightful Question Possible and ask what comes to mind instead, or simply make a sound to indicate you're still listening.
posted by buteo at 7:16 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
I saw kind of a makeover show where a very butch woman was dressed up femininely for her girlfriend for the first time ever. She had been very resistent to it but looked wonderful afterwards and ended up saying she liked it. I want to say it was probably on the Jerry Springer show. If you can find that or something like it and watch it with her, that might help you talk about questions like whether or not she would like to try out a more feminine presentation.
I knew someone who was a good listener and who was good at drawing me out. When I would say I didn't know how to express something personal, he would just say "Please try" and then give me time to try to respond. That often resulted in good replies from me even though I did not think I could answer his question. With practice, it got easier.
posted by Michele in California at 7:18 PM on July 25, 2012
I knew someone who was a good listener and who was good at drawing me out. When I would say I didn't know how to express something personal, he would just say "Please try" and then give me time to try to respond. That often resulted in good replies from me even though I did not think I could answer his question. With practice, it got easier.
posted by Michele in California at 7:18 PM on July 25, 2012
"sometimes I get the sense that she wishes she hadn't been excluded from a lot of typical beauty rituals a lot of women just take for granted, and I'd be happy to share, but somehow asking just seems insulting"
"I'm getting a pedicure this weekend, do you want to go with me? [hesitation from parnter] It's true, it tickles a little, but I looooooove having smooth feet and if you hate the polish, I'll help you take it off when we get home. I'll buy you a frappuccino to drink!"
"I'm trying to learn this new eyeshadow technique from this youtube video and I think I am failing, want to try?" or "Can I practice on you?" or "You're so good at painting and stuff, do you think you could follow the tutorial and do me? So I can see how I'm supposed to look?"
I've had a couple of good friends sort-of like your partner, and in my experience, people who sort-of want to try out feminine beauty rituals but are hesitant often feel more comfortable when it's low-key, fun, even silly. No high-stakes "Let's get picture-perfect for our Very Important Dinner tonight." but "Oooooh, let's go get body wraps at that new day spa and then pizza! It's so much more fun if I have someone to chat with while I'm wrapped!" And if she hates it, be low-key about that too, and emphasize it's okay not to like things -- "Yeah, I love the mud masques but the rosemary body peel is too much for me, it's so itchy. But I can see how maybe having mud glopped on your face isn't for everyone!"
When my friends seemed hesitant and embarrassed, but not annoyed, I would just let it drop, and ask again the next time. (One of my friends took seriously two years before I convinced her to try a pedicure and now she wants to go every six weeks and it is her favorite thing. She had just never done ANYTHING like that before and was super, super hesitant because she didn't know what it would be like. So I just invited her when I happened to be going, said "Oh, maybe next time!" when she declined, and waiting several months before inviting her again. Finally her curiosity overcame her fear, and she loved it.) If they're like, "No, that is really not my thing," then I just drop it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
"I'm getting a pedicure this weekend, do you want to go with me? [hesitation from parnter] It's true, it tickles a little, but I looooooove having smooth feet and if you hate the polish, I'll help you take it off when we get home. I'll buy you a frappuccino to drink!"
"I'm trying to learn this new eyeshadow technique from this youtube video and I think I am failing, want to try?" or "Can I practice on you?" or "You're so good at painting and stuff, do you think you could follow the tutorial and do me? So I can see how I'm supposed to look?"
I've had a couple of good friends sort-of like your partner, and in my experience, people who sort-of want to try out feminine beauty rituals but are hesitant often feel more comfortable when it's low-key, fun, even silly. No high-stakes "Let's get picture-perfect for our Very Important Dinner tonight." but "Oooooh, let's go get body wraps at that new day spa and then pizza! It's so much more fun if I have someone to chat with while I'm wrapped!" And if she hates it, be low-key about that too, and emphasize it's okay not to like things -- "Yeah, I love the mud masques but the rosemary body peel is too much for me, it's so itchy. But I can see how maybe having mud glopped on your face isn't for everyone!"
When my friends seemed hesitant and embarrassed, but not annoyed, I would just let it drop, and ask again the next time. (One of my friends took seriously two years before I convinced her to try a pedicure and now she wants to go every six weeks and it is her favorite thing. She had just never done ANYTHING like that before and was super, super hesitant because she didn't know what it would be like. So I just invited her when I happened to be going, said "Oh, maybe next time!" when she declined, and waiting several months before inviting her again. Finally her curiosity overcame her fear, and she loved it.) If they're like, "No, that is really not my thing," then I just drop it.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on July 25, 2012 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Sometimes when I'm in a high-stress conversation with someone I really care about, it can multiply my stress if I have to watch them watching me. If they're really invested in my words -- if they're being hurt in realtime by my momentary feelings of openness/closedness -- if I have to tend not only to my own sensitive self but also to their emotional needs -- it can just be completely overwhelming.
This is why I have sometimes chosen to start these kinds of conversations in writing -- by email or in a letter -- so I can negotiate my own fears and freakouts on my own time, ahead of time, without harming someone else as I do it. This may or may not work for you two -- it just depends what makes you feel most comfortable. But I would suggest that you try to find ways to give her space to collect her thoughts away from your watching eyes.
One possibility is to communicate in writing -- maybe by email. Ask her ahead of time, in face-to-face conversation, if this would be ok. And if she says yes, don't pile all your questions into one email. Start with two or three. Let her write back to you in her own time.
Another possibility is just to say something like, "I'd like to ask you a question now, give you whatever time you want to think about it, and then come back at a different time to hear your answer. Is that ok?" Then do that.
I'd also suggest that it might be a good idea to stick to open-ended questions (in other words, questions that cannot be answered by a yes/no). The yes/no questions in your list feel very leading and limiting -- they might make her feel forced into your way of looking at things. Try rephrasing as open-ended questions -- for instance:
- "Do you ever want me to correct people for you?" becomes "What would be your best-case scenario for how I respond when people address you by the wrong pronoun?" or "How do you feel about correcting people?"
- "Do you wish you could present a more feminine side to yourself but don't know how to do so?" becomes "How do you feel about the idea that everyone has 'a feminine side'"? or "What has it been like to not be a part of more traditionally feminine activities?
posted by ourobouros at 8:00 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is why I have sometimes chosen to start these kinds of conversations in writing -- by email or in a letter -- so I can negotiate my own fears and freakouts on my own time, ahead of time, without harming someone else as I do it. This may or may not work for you two -- it just depends what makes you feel most comfortable. But I would suggest that you try to find ways to give her space to collect her thoughts away from your watching eyes.
One possibility is to communicate in writing -- maybe by email. Ask her ahead of time, in face-to-face conversation, if this would be ok. And if she says yes, don't pile all your questions into one email. Start with two or three. Let her write back to you in her own time.
Another possibility is just to say something like, "I'd like to ask you a question now, give you whatever time you want to think about it, and then come back at a different time to hear your answer. Is that ok?" Then do that.
I'd also suggest that it might be a good idea to stick to open-ended questions (in other words, questions that cannot be answered by a yes/no). The yes/no questions in your list feel very leading and limiting -- they might make her feel forced into your way of looking at things. Try rephrasing as open-ended questions -- for instance:
- "Do you ever want me to correct people for you?" becomes "What would be your best-case scenario for how I respond when people address you by the wrong pronoun?" or "How do you feel about correcting people?"
- "Do you wish you could present a more feminine side to yourself but don't know how to do so?" becomes "How do you feel about the idea that everyone has 'a feminine side'"? or "What has it been like to not be a part of more traditionally feminine activities?
posted by ourobouros at 8:00 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Seconding that your example questions sound a bit leading. If she wants you to draw her out, try making your questions as content-free as possible. If I'm feeling prickly about something, even a question like "How did you feel when [X situation] happened?" is too forward, as it assumes that X was a significant occurrence that must have generated some major feelings. I'd like to be the one who makes that determination. You might ask "How was that?" or "And then what happened?" After a few of those, follow her lead in going for specifics.
Speaking as a person with a 4-decade saga of gender presentation fun behind me, and most likely more of the same in the future... I personally get a little put off when others seem to take my experiences harder than I do. This occasionally comes up when I'm talking to friends who have always been unmistakably female, and they are shocked or horrified or offended by whatever example of mistakable gender I'm going on about. It's important to let her be the main character in her own story, and if that brings up strong feelings for you, don't put them on her in the moment.
It occurs to me as I write this that the suggestions I've made might be hard to pull off by someone who is deeply emotionally involved. I will just leave you with my standard line about professional help: Getting a therapist is like hiring movers. Because sometimes in your life, you have too much stuff to ask your friends to carry it all for you.
posted by expialidocious at 9:50 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
Speaking as a person with a 4-decade saga of gender presentation fun behind me, and most likely more of the same in the future... I personally get a little put off when others seem to take my experiences harder than I do. This occasionally comes up when I'm talking to friends who have always been unmistakably female, and they are shocked or horrified or offended by whatever example of mistakable gender I'm going on about. It's important to let her be the main character in her own story, and if that brings up strong feelings for you, don't put them on her in the moment.
It occurs to me as I write this that the suggestions I've made might be hard to pull off by someone who is deeply emotionally involved. I will just leave you with my standard line about professional help: Getting a therapist is like hiring movers. Because sometimes in your life, you have too much stuff to ask your friends to carry it all for you.
posted by expialidocious at 9:50 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
I am bisexual and soft butch. I can only tell you my own experience, but it may be helpful.
These conversations are hardest with women who fall on the more femme side of the spectrum because they deeply do not seem to get it. They don't understand why someone wouldn't want to wear lacy, frilly stuff and they assume it must come from some sort of trauma. In the ideal world, they would like to give me a makeover, and that just isn't what I want. People have been trying to make me dress "like a girl" since I was three years old and if I wanted to, I would have done it by now. I don't want to be changed. I don't want a makeover. The last thing I want is to be offered eye shadow. Having someone try to force a makeover on me while trying to get emotionally close to me at the same time is inherently upsetting.
I don't look and dress this way because I have low self-esteem. Looking and dressing this way is one of the few things that makes me feel good about my appearance. Looking another way just doesn't feel like me.
At the same time, I've had traumatic experiences around being called ugly and stuff like that. I probably got more than my share of this because of the slight gender non-conformity. That has wreaked havoc on my self-esteem and my identification with my own body etc but the butch part is not the problematic part.
I am a female who likes to appear on the more masculine side but I don't want to be ugly. Femmey women tend to confuse the two.
Your friend may not feel the same as I do, but that's a window into my world.
posted by gentian at 9:53 PM on July 25, 2012 [4 favorites]
These conversations are hardest with women who fall on the more femme side of the spectrum because they deeply do not seem to get it. They don't understand why someone wouldn't want to wear lacy, frilly stuff and they assume it must come from some sort of trauma. In the ideal world, they would like to give me a makeover, and that just isn't what I want. People have been trying to make me dress "like a girl" since I was three years old and if I wanted to, I would have done it by now. I don't want to be changed. I don't want a makeover. The last thing I want is to be offered eye shadow. Having someone try to force a makeover on me while trying to get emotionally close to me at the same time is inherently upsetting.
I don't look and dress this way because I have low self-esteem. Looking and dressing this way is one of the few things that makes me feel good about my appearance. Looking another way just doesn't feel like me.
At the same time, I've had traumatic experiences around being called ugly and stuff like that. I probably got more than my share of this because of the slight gender non-conformity. That has wreaked havoc on my self-esteem and my identification with my own body etc but the butch part is not the problematic part.
I am a female who likes to appear on the more masculine side but I don't want to be ugly. Femmey women tend to confuse the two.
Your friend may not feel the same as I do, but that's a window into my world.
posted by gentian at 9:53 PM on July 25, 2012 [4 favorites]
Best answer: I am a butch appearing lesbian. At various times I've identified as a butch gendered person.
I have a wonderful and loving femme of center partner who would gladly take up arms in order to shelter me from any additional slight resultant from ignorance or malice as regarded to my appearance and sexuality. She is wonderful. My sense is that you feel similarly but haven't found the right way to support your partner.
I echo the active listening sentiment. I don't like to share my experiences much. They are painful reminders of the ignorance and intolerance of many, many people. However, when I do get to talking my partner has finally figured out that the greatest gift she can give me is her ears. Less asking, more nodding. More hugs. More smiles. More hand holding. More kissing of my eyelids. Just knowing that she is listening to me and loving me makes it easier to talk.
For me (others may be different) if she were to ask me to go get a pedicure I wouldn't flinch but if she were to talk to me about trying an eye shadow technique I would consider that that a significant disconnect to the point that I'd wonder if she listened to me at all. Pedicures can and are done without color polish. Eye shadow? Um, no.
Your partner is an individual and I can't say what will and won't fly with her, but one of the best things that my partner does is ask me "how can I be a better partner in this area?" and it makes me really think about that. Ask your partner.
Also - it sounds like you might be newish to dating a butch identified person. If so, you (and your partner) might find a Butch Femme Community helpful. I know many women who, particular hetero-normative women who find the information and dialog there to be helpful. There's lots of fluff and non-sense too, but if you look and/or participate in a meaningful way you'll be rewarded with wonderful insight.
Please feel free to contact me to discuss. I think it's great that you want to know more about her experiences and understand her better.
posted by FlamingBore at 9:54 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have a wonderful and loving femme of center partner who would gladly take up arms in order to shelter me from any additional slight resultant from ignorance or malice as regarded to my appearance and sexuality. She is wonderful. My sense is that you feel similarly but haven't found the right way to support your partner.
I echo the active listening sentiment. I don't like to share my experiences much. They are painful reminders of the ignorance and intolerance of many, many people. However, when I do get to talking my partner has finally figured out that the greatest gift she can give me is her ears. Less asking, more nodding. More hugs. More smiles. More hand holding. More kissing of my eyelids. Just knowing that she is listening to me and loving me makes it easier to talk.
For me (others may be different) if she were to ask me to go get a pedicure I wouldn't flinch but if she were to talk to me about trying an eye shadow technique I would consider that that a significant disconnect to the point that I'd wonder if she listened to me at all. Pedicures can and are done without color polish. Eye shadow? Um, no.
Your partner is an individual and I can't say what will and won't fly with her, but one of the best things that my partner does is ask me "how can I be a better partner in this area?" and it makes me really think about that. Ask your partner.
Also - it sounds like you might be newish to dating a butch identified person. If so, you (and your partner) might find a Butch Femme Community helpful. I know many women who, particular hetero-normative women who find the information and dialog there to be helpful. There's lots of fluff and non-sense too, but if you look and/or participate in a meaningful way you'll be rewarded with wonderful insight.
Please feel free to contact me to discuss. I think it's great that you want to know more about her experiences and understand her better.
posted by FlamingBore at 9:54 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Check out the b/f community FlamingBore rec'd! Maybe check it out with your gf.
I am femme and have been in relationships with butches. Honestly maybe there is stuff she doesn't want and doesn't need to tell you for a long time. So maybe focus on what would be good now. This is what has sometimes worked for me: Bring things up one at a time,seemingly at random. Ask her: how can I be the best partner to you when we are out? If someone calls you sir or dude, want me to give them attitude? How can I be the best partner to you when we are with your family? Do you want me to back you up on things when your parents don't understand? How can I be the best partner to you in bed? What should I call your chest?
Tell her about things that are hard and painful for you. Give and get. Good luck.
posted by manicure12 at 10:20 PM on July 25, 2012
I am femme and have been in relationships with butches. Honestly maybe there is stuff she doesn't want and doesn't need to tell you for a long time. So maybe focus on what would be good now. This is what has sometimes worked for me: Bring things up one at a time,seemingly at random. Ask her: how can I be the best partner to you when we are out? If someone calls you sir or dude, want me to give them attitude? How can I be the best partner to you when we are with your family? Do you want me to back you up on things when your parents don't understand? How can I be the best partner to you in bed? What should I call your chest?
Tell her about things that are hard and painful for you. Give and get. Good luck.
posted by manicure12 at 10:20 PM on July 25, 2012
Response by poster: I'm signing off for tonight, but wanted to thank everyone for the time and obvious care they put into the answers. I'm in awe. I'm going to turn this page dark green with best answers tomorrow, let me tell you.
I really cringed that I poorly worded something up above to make it seem like I secretly felt like my partner might want makeup lessons. I know the answers about drawing her out in that way were in good faith, but what gentian says above is so spot-on about how I know my partner feels: "Looking and dressing this way is one of the few things that makes me feel good about my appearance. Looking another way just doesn't feel like me." I'm proud of the way she presents herself to the world and she's proud of the way I do, and we admire the differences about what makes us each feel like ourselves, especially knowing that it was a long road for both of us to get to. Sorry that one of my sample questions made it seem otherwise! (I don't really strongly identify as femme or feel accepted by that community, and I certainly don't think our problems stems from the fact that I don't get why she doesn't wear lipstick when I get a lot of pleasure from wearing it. I apologize if I'm being too bristly but want to be perfectly clear before I step away.)
posted by thesocietyfor at 10:26 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
I really cringed that I poorly worded something up above to make it seem like I secretly felt like my partner might want makeup lessons. I know the answers about drawing her out in that way were in good faith, but what gentian says above is so spot-on about how I know my partner feels: "Looking and dressing this way is one of the few things that makes me feel good about my appearance. Looking another way just doesn't feel like me." I'm proud of the way she presents herself to the world and she's proud of the way I do, and we admire the differences about what makes us each feel like ourselves, especially knowing that it was a long road for both of us to get to. Sorry that one of my sample questions made it seem otherwise! (I don't really strongly identify as femme or feel accepted by that community, and I certainly don't think our problems stems from the fact that I don't get why she doesn't wear lipstick when I get a lot of pleasure from wearing it. I apologize if I'm being too bristly but want to be perfectly clear before I step away.)
posted by thesocietyfor at 10:26 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm in a partnership comprised of two people who have complicated gender and presentation issues, plus the fun backstories to go with.
First, and this is maybe a weird suggestion, but have you tried making these conversations less...well, less conversation-y? My partner and I have this sort of conversation (and other srs biznis conversations) semifrequently, but what makes it bearable for us is be doing something that's not having the conversation, too. So we'll go have cigars and beer on the porch, or we'll play Doctor Mario together, or something like that--something that makes this less a conversation where you have to respond to things in a timely fashion, where you have to look at each other, etc.
This is helpful for a few reasons--first, it's less pressure. Even point-blank questions feel less loaded when you're not sitting and looking at someone's face, seeing their anticipation of your answer and their reaction to the same. You ever hear that suggestion for parents to talk to their "difficult" teenage children in the car? This is why. Second, though, there's a built-in buffer. You get a moment to think about your responses, because taking a sip of beer or a puff of cigar or a moment to curse that the fucking blue virus has red pills on it is totally expected in those situations. It's a slower conversation, but can be more thoughtful. This might give you the chance to catch yourself in conversation-stopping behavior (or projecting your ache, or whatever) before it happens.
Like someone mentioned above, I can't deal when people react worse to my life experiences than I do. If I say "Oh, this one time, horrible thing happened," and I'm pretty calm about it, at this point, and you respond with "Oh my god, how awful, I'm so sorry, I can't believe..." it puts me in the weird position of having to comfort you about something that happened to me. This is, for me, the easiest way to end a conversation. I can handle it once in a while, but if we're talking about a painful issue and you keep coming back with sympathy and etc, I'll bail. I suspect that this is true for many people with painful past-stuff that they've had to mostly deal with on their own.
Also, active listening is awesome, but I'd argue that trying too hard to ask "insightful" questions will kill the conversation--questions like that often feel, to me, like I'm being targeted, or like there's some sort of ulterior motive. Obviously you aren't targeting her, but it's one of those things that can be hard to shake if you've experienced it before. You might have more luck asking about specific experiences: "Did you ever go to camp as a kid?" or "Man, when I was fourteen, blah blah blah, anecdote, childhood stuff. What was fourteen like for you?" Sometimes this stuff might lead to obvious questions, but even if it doesn't, knowing her backstory will probably only further your understanding of how things are for her.
posted by MeghanC at 11:28 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
First, and this is maybe a weird suggestion, but have you tried making these conversations less...well, less conversation-y? My partner and I have this sort of conversation (and other srs biznis conversations) semifrequently, but what makes it bearable for us is be doing something that's not having the conversation, too. So we'll go have cigars and beer on the porch, or we'll play Doctor Mario together, or something like that--something that makes this less a conversation where you have to respond to things in a timely fashion, where you have to look at each other, etc.
This is helpful for a few reasons--first, it's less pressure. Even point-blank questions feel less loaded when you're not sitting and looking at someone's face, seeing their anticipation of your answer and their reaction to the same. You ever hear that suggestion for parents to talk to their "difficult" teenage children in the car? This is why. Second, though, there's a built-in buffer. You get a moment to think about your responses, because taking a sip of beer or a puff of cigar or a moment to curse that the fucking blue virus has red pills on it is totally expected in those situations. It's a slower conversation, but can be more thoughtful. This might give you the chance to catch yourself in conversation-stopping behavior (or projecting your ache, or whatever) before it happens.
Like someone mentioned above, I can't deal when people react worse to my life experiences than I do. If I say "Oh, this one time, horrible thing happened," and I'm pretty calm about it, at this point, and you respond with "Oh my god, how awful, I'm so sorry, I can't believe..." it puts me in the weird position of having to comfort you about something that happened to me. This is, for me, the easiest way to end a conversation. I can handle it once in a while, but if we're talking about a painful issue and you keep coming back with sympathy and etc, I'll bail. I suspect that this is true for many people with painful past-stuff that they've had to mostly deal with on their own.
Also, active listening is awesome, but I'd argue that trying too hard to ask "insightful" questions will kill the conversation--questions like that often feel, to me, like I'm being targeted, or like there's some sort of ulterior motive. Obviously you aren't targeting her, but it's one of those things that can be hard to shake if you've experienced it before. You might have more luck asking about specific experiences: "Did you ever go to camp as a kid?" or "Man, when I was fourteen, blah blah blah, anecdote, childhood stuff. What was fourteen like for you?" Sometimes this stuff might lead to obvious questions, but even if it doesn't, knowing her backstory will probably only further your understanding of how things are for her.
posted by MeghanC at 11:28 PM on July 25, 2012 [3 favorites]
Would a group setting work, maybe with other people who have had a range of different experiences with gender presentation?
Is there some book you could both read, or video you could both watch, that might help facilitate a conversation?
Maybe in a different setting, or with different cues, you can talk through these issues without sitting down and having a one-on-one discussion. In particular, I'm thinking that talking with other people who have had experiences either similar to your partner, or different from both of you, might help these issues come out without making your partner feel like she's being grilled.
posted by chickenmagazine at 8:48 AM on July 26, 2012
Is there some book you could both read, or video you could both watch, that might help facilitate a conversation?
Maybe in a different setting, or with different cues, you can talk through these issues without sitting down and having a one-on-one discussion. In particular, I'm thinking that talking with other people who have had experiences either similar to your partner, or different from both of you, might help these issues come out without making your partner feel like she's being grilled.
posted by chickenmagazine at 8:48 AM on July 26, 2012
I find that conversations with my husband about possibly-delicate issues often go better when we talk while we're out for a longish walk. I think the gentle exercise helps — I have a tendency to get wound up and jittery when stressed — and being on the move, with the periodic need to negotiate crossing streets and suchlike, can make it easier to have comfortable silences in the conversation. IME, being able to have silences that don't feel awkward makes it so much easier to explore and discuss things that touch on deep, personal, sometimes painful areas.
posted by Lexica at 6:28 PM on July 28, 2012
posted by Lexica at 6:28 PM on July 28, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
Preface them with something like "please tell me to back off if anything is too sensitive, and I apologize in advance if anything I ask feels like something you've been asked a zillion times".
If I had a lover who wanted to ask me about my transition, I'd be happy to answer their questions. Even if some of them were the same old ones.
posted by egypturnash at 5:33 PM on July 25, 2012 [1 favorite]