How to safely un-quit drinking?
July 16, 2012 3:12 PM
My partner and I have decided that we would like to learn to drink in moderation, and have already begun to see if it will work for us. But we're not trying to reduce our intake-- we've each abstained from alcohol for over five years and are starting from a place of not drinking at all. Basically, we're un-quitting drinking, and want some guidance. Is there some sort of support or literature that can help us make sure we're on the right track as we learn to have a healthy and casual relationship with alcohol?
Recently we each came to the conclusion that it's entirely possible that our prior dependence was due to external factors that have now been addressed and mitigated, and that there's an excellent chance that we can learn to have a healthy relationship with alcohol. We each had untreated mental health issues that are now well-managed. We have learned to face, deal with, and process difficult emotions without the use of mood-altering substances, and intend to keep doing so. Neither of us has a family history that includes alcoholism or abuse. In fact, we're not doing this because we especially feel the need or want to drink, it's because there are elements of life (especially social) that we'd like to re-introduce to ourselves in a healthy manner. This is an experiment, one that will end if it doesn't work out for either one of us, and as with all things our open communication is the key to seeing if this will work. The following are things that have been discussed and on which we are in complete agreement.
Here's what we're thinking constitutes healthy, moderate drinking:
-- A few social drinks on Friday or Saturday nights
-- Playing board games or some such activity together once or twice a week (to replace our current 3-4 hours a night of mindless television watching)
-- A couple of glasses of wine on the rare "date night" that we'll be able to have together (once every 2 months or so)
-- 1-2 glasses of wine with a nice meal that we've made, once or twice a week, maybe
-- On vacation, should we ever be able to take one
-- Absolute maximum 9 drinks each week (per recommended guidelines for women), no more than 2 on any night, and no drinking at all for at least two nights each week
+++ All of the above will be our guidelines for a couple of months down the road-- we're currently limiting ourselves to two drinks each on only one weekend night per week, until we have a better idea of where we stand+++
And here are some of the things that, should they present themselves for either of us, will stop this experiment immediately:
-- Desire to drink to drown feelings or to "deal with" stress
-- Inability to have alcohol in the house without consuming it
-- Any form of obsession or planning activities to "create" reasons to drink
I'm looking for support and/or literature to guide us in this process-- we met after we stopped drinking, and neither of us had occasion to learn what moderate drinking looked like before we stopped. I'm trying to determine if my lists above sound right to someone who has experience drinking in moderation.
Our experiment is going well for us so far-- no obsession, no need to "control", etc. I'm sure there will be many opinions on what my partner and I have decided to do, but what we could really use is some guidance on what drinking in moderation looks like so that we have a yardstick against which to measure our intake--but mostly against which we can determine if we can have a healthy, normal relationship with alcohol after all. If we can't, then we have plans in place and support to "catch" us, but we are already in the process of giving this a shot and would appreciate comments, advice, and resources that can help us in this direction.
We are fully aware of all the ways in which this can go wrong, and have heard all of the stories and warnings, I assure you (we both have multiple years of AA under our belts). We also believe that it can go well, definitely not for everybody but in our specific cases, and with the right guidance. We are both mentally healthy and have built a pretty great life together. I'm looking for support, guidance, literature, or programs-- and if you have any, examples of what worked for you or someone you know. Throwaway email: moderationexperiment@gmail.com
Recently we each came to the conclusion that it's entirely possible that our prior dependence was due to external factors that have now been addressed and mitigated, and that there's an excellent chance that we can learn to have a healthy relationship with alcohol. We each had untreated mental health issues that are now well-managed. We have learned to face, deal with, and process difficult emotions without the use of mood-altering substances, and intend to keep doing so. Neither of us has a family history that includes alcoholism or abuse. In fact, we're not doing this because we especially feel the need or want to drink, it's because there are elements of life (especially social) that we'd like to re-introduce to ourselves in a healthy manner. This is an experiment, one that will end if it doesn't work out for either one of us, and as with all things our open communication is the key to seeing if this will work. The following are things that have been discussed and on which we are in complete agreement.
Here's what we're thinking constitutes healthy, moderate drinking:
-- A few social drinks on Friday or Saturday nights
-- Playing board games or some such activity together once or twice a week (to replace our current 3-4 hours a night of mindless television watching)
-- A couple of glasses of wine on the rare "date night" that we'll be able to have together (once every 2 months or so)
-- 1-2 glasses of wine with a nice meal that we've made, once or twice a week, maybe
-- On vacation, should we ever be able to take one
-- Absolute maximum 9 drinks each week (per recommended guidelines for women), no more than 2 on any night, and no drinking at all for at least two nights each week
+++ All of the above will be our guidelines for a couple of months down the road-- we're currently limiting ourselves to two drinks each on only one weekend night per week, until we have a better idea of where we stand+++
And here are some of the things that, should they present themselves for either of us, will stop this experiment immediately:
-- Desire to drink to drown feelings or to "deal with" stress
-- Inability to have alcohol in the house without consuming it
-- Any form of obsession or planning activities to "create" reasons to drink
I'm looking for support and/or literature to guide us in this process-- we met after we stopped drinking, and neither of us had occasion to learn what moderate drinking looked like before we stopped. I'm trying to determine if my lists above sound right to someone who has experience drinking in moderation.
Our experiment is going well for us so far-- no obsession, no need to "control", etc. I'm sure there will be many opinions on what my partner and I have decided to do, but what we could really use is some guidance on what drinking in moderation looks like so that we have a yardstick against which to measure our intake--but mostly against which we can determine if we can have a healthy, normal relationship with alcohol after all. If we can't, then we have plans in place and support to "catch" us, but we are already in the process of giving this a shot and would appreciate comments, advice, and resources that can help us in this direction.
We are fully aware of all the ways in which this can go wrong, and have heard all of the stories and warnings, I assure you (we both have multiple years of AA under our belts). We also believe that it can go well, definitely not for everybody but in our specific cases, and with the right guidance. We are both mentally healthy and have built a pretty great life together. I'm looking for support, guidance, literature, or programs-- and if you have any, examples of what worked for you or someone you know. Throwaway email: moderationexperiment@gmail.com
Penn & Teller have an episode about AA & the disease model of alcoholism which might be helpful.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:27 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:27 PM on July 16, 2012
Oh, and for what it's worth: I'm a moderate drinker and those are pretty close to my drinking habits, although I'm sober for way more than two nights a week (that seems high). I can also achieve drunkenness (and ensuing hangover) after two drinks, though, so this is all clearly going to be variable.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:30 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:30 PM on July 16, 2012
Generally the method that works for me is that if I am starting to even notice that I can no longer fully appreciate the taste of whatever I'm drinking (typically wine), I stop. Usually this means two glasses or perhaps half a bottle of wine.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:34 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by KokuRyu at 3:34 PM on July 16, 2012
In terms of weekly alcohol consumption, I just limit alcohol (usually) to Friday, Saturday and Sunday evenings.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:34 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by KokuRyu at 3:34 PM on July 16, 2012
-- Playing board games or some such activity together once or twice a week (to replace our current 3-4 hours a night of mindless television watching)
I'm a little confused about what this has to do with drinking.
posted by jacalata at 3:37 PM on July 16, 2012
I'm a little confused about what this has to do with drinking.
posted by jacalata at 3:37 PM on July 16, 2012
-- Absolute maximum 9 drinks each week (per recommended guidelines for women), no more than 2 on any night, and no drinking at all for at least two nights each week
A lot of people I know who are consciously trying to moderate drink no more than twice a week and no two consecutive nights. Drinking five nights a week seems like a lot to me.
posted by BibiRose at 3:41 PM on July 16, 2012
A lot of people I know who are consciously trying to moderate drink no more than twice a week and no two consecutive nights. Drinking five nights a week seems like a lot to me.
posted by BibiRose at 3:41 PM on July 16, 2012
-- Any form of obsession or planning activities to "create" reasons to drink
If you read your post, though, it really seems like that's what you're doing right now.
posted by something something at 3:44 PM on July 16, 2012
If you read your post, though, it really seems like that's what you're doing right now.
posted by something something at 3:44 PM on July 16, 2012
I have had addictions. Alcohol isn't one of them, but one thing I've noticed: if you find yourself thinking about it for more than, like, 30 seconds in a given day or week, you might eventually find yourself with a problem. Frequently I will pour myself a glass of wine and then forget all about it. And I sit down to read my book or whatever, and 20 minutes later, I'm like, oh yeah, wine! This usually happens to me more than once, and I'll find that I frequently don't even finish my drink because I'm having fun talking with people, or watching my movie, or playing Words With Friends or whatever. And this has not been the case, at all, with things I've eventually had addiction problems with.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:44 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by rabbitrabbit at 3:44 PM on July 16, 2012
I've done this. I went from a problematic drinker to a never-drinker with some severe alcoholism on both sides of my family to a "sometimes" drinker with reasonable ease and a few bumps. What I did more than regulate my intake was to have fairly severe penalties for the sorts of things that alcohol did that were problematic. This is just how my feedback loop worked for me, yours might be different. A few of the guidelines (and again, not everyone needs or desires these, some things like two drink maximum are also totally fine) were
- no more than two drinks at home in a day no matter what (I am a lightweight, two drinks is decently buzzed for me)
- no driving after more than one drink in any four hour period - you fuck this up you take the rest of the year off
- any stressful day that concludes with drinking concludes with one drink only
- any drinking that results in a hangover is two weeks of no drinking at all
- any drinking that results in injury/trouble [falling over/stumbling, being sick, inappropriate with other people] is a month of no drinking at all
- when partner says to stop, stop, no matter what, no arguments. Any arguing means it's time to go home.
For me it was important to be a person who mostly didn't drink but was allowed to drink within some guidelines. I'm not much of a social drinker just because I have my own problems knowing when to say when and that part of drinking makes all the other parts unfun for me. There are probably no more than ten days a year when I might have more than two drinks and I'm okay with that.
This seems like a weird mishmash of rules but it helped me basically know when I was having problems (when I was arguing with my own rules or making up new exceptions or whatever) and helped me pinpoint when it was time to make an adjustment. Everyone's relationship to alcohol is different, my "don't be that guy" guideline with my drunken parent was just to never argue with a loved one about it, case closed, and I expect the same in return. Discussions, sure, but not "I'm going to have one more and you're an asshole if you're trying to tell me I can't" arguments. Everything else grew out of that.
posted by jessamyn at 3:50 PM on July 16, 2012
- no more than two drinks at home in a day no matter what (I am a lightweight, two drinks is decently buzzed for me)
- no driving after more than one drink in any four hour period - you fuck this up you take the rest of the year off
- any stressful day that concludes with drinking concludes with one drink only
- any drinking that results in a hangover is two weeks of no drinking at all
- any drinking that results in injury/trouble [falling over/stumbling, being sick, inappropriate with other people] is a month of no drinking at all
- when partner says to stop, stop, no matter what, no arguments. Any arguing means it's time to go home.
For me it was important to be a person who mostly didn't drink but was allowed to drink within some guidelines. I'm not much of a social drinker just because I have my own problems knowing when to say when and that part of drinking makes all the other parts unfun for me. There are probably no more than ten days a year when I might have more than two drinks and I'm okay with that.
This seems like a weird mishmash of rules but it helped me basically know when I was having problems (when I was arguing with my own rules or making up new exceptions or whatever) and helped me pinpoint when it was time to make an adjustment. Everyone's relationship to alcohol is different, my "don't be that guy" guideline with my drunken parent was just to never argue with a loved one about it, case closed, and I expect the same in return. Discussions, sure, but not "I'm going to have one more and you're an asshole if you're trying to tell me I can't" arguments. Everything else grew out of that.
posted by jessamyn at 3:50 PM on July 16, 2012
I'm watching this Penn & Teller episode and it's infuriating. What they decide to discuss, what they decide to show, and their general disrespect for the addict by their statements or 'jokes' is just maddening.
Anyway. Personally, I really don't think I can do the moderation thing. I've been sober for fifteen months now and I've thought about it. I know my depression and my anxiety were what made alcohol so much of a relief and a crutch for me. I also know that my depression and anxiety are the lowest they've ever been in over a decade. So I've thought about it.
But when I'm out with friends who are drinking and I see them drink half of a drink and say they're done, my inner voice is shouting at them to finish it and not waste the alcohol. When they drink two beers and say they're starting to feel it so they decide to stop, my thoughts are that of puzzlement–why wouldn't you want to feel it? Isn't that the whole point, to get drunk? And I find those thoughts/that line of thinking pretty much torpedoes even the slightest thought of moderation.
So I just want you to make sure that you're not having those kind of thoughts. If others drink and you see some sort of problem in how they're drinking, I think that's a telltale sign that moderation will eventually undo itself for you. It's the preoccupation with alcohol that does the alcoholic in, the constant thinking about it, and the disappearance of those thoughts once you take that first drink.
Please, be careful.
posted by Modica at 3:54 PM on July 16, 2012
Anyway. Personally, I really don't think I can do the moderation thing. I've been sober for fifteen months now and I've thought about it. I know my depression and my anxiety were what made alcohol so much of a relief and a crutch for me. I also know that my depression and anxiety are the lowest they've ever been in over a decade. So I've thought about it.
But when I'm out with friends who are drinking and I see them drink half of a drink and say they're done, my inner voice is shouting at them to finish it and not waste the alcohol. When they drink two beers and say they're starting to feel it so they decide to stop, my thoughts are that of puzzlement–why wouldn't you want to feel it? Isn't that the whole point, to get drunk? And I find those thoughts/that line of thinking pretty much torpedoes even the slightest thought of moderation.
So I just want you to make sure that you're not having those kind of thoughts. If others drink and you see some sort of problem in how they're drinking, I think that's a telltale sign that moderation will eventually undo itself for you. It's the preoccupation with alcohol that does the alcoholic in, the constant thinking about it, and the disappearance of those thoughts once you take that first drink.
Please, be careful.
posted by Modica at 3:54 PM on July 16, 2012
I'm watching this Penn & Teller episode and it's infuriating. What they decide to discuss, what they decide to show, and their general disrespect for the addict by their statements or 'jokes' is just maddening.
Yes, this is fairly standard for a Bullshit! episode, though. Later in the episode there are discussions of alternative models of alcohol treatment and alternatives to disease models of addiction, and this, specifically, is what I hope OP will find helpful.
I suspect the biggest hoop to navigate here won't be rules' based, but instead, relationship-centered. You're two former problem-drinkers. What happens if one of you feels the other goes overboard and the other doesn't? Jessamyn's guidelines seem ideal for that, but I can see there being tensions, and you should find a specific way to navigate those now.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:01 PM on July 16, 2012
Yes, this is fairly standard for a Bullshit! episode, though. Later in the episode there are discussions of alternative models of alcohol treatment and alternatives to disease models of addiction, and this, specifically, is what I hope OP will find helpful.
I suspect the biggest hoop to navigate here won't be rules' based, but instead, relationship-centered. You're two former problem-drinkers. What happens if one of you feels the other goes overboard and the other doesn't? Jessamyn's guidelines seem ideal for that, but I can see there being tensions, and you should find a specific way to navigate those now.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:01 PM on July 16, 2012
Is there some sort of support or literature that can help us make sure we're on the right track as we learn to have a healthy and casual relationship with alcohol?
Forgive me if I missed it somewhere in your question, but have you thought about seeing an addictions/alcohol counselor? People I know have resumed alcohol-- after intially given it up along with other drugs-- with the guidance of a counselor. It just seems like having an outside party to talk to might help.
posted by BibiRose at 4:04 PM on July 16, 2012
Forgive me if I missed it somewhere in your question, but have you thought about seeing an addictions/alcohol counselor? People I know have resumed alcohol-- after intially given it up along with other drugs-- with the guidance of a counselor. It just seems like having an outside party to talk to might help.
posted by BibiRose at 4:04 PM on July 16, 2012
And, just to add another data point that may be helpful. I think about drinking All The Time. And just like the advice a lot of people give in AskMe that is about other problematic habits or intrusive thoughts or whatever, I've gotten better at being like "Oh that's that 'I need a drink' thought coming through" and not translating that into actual drinking. This is partly because I have a partner who I can talk to about this who can help me sort of talk through my feelings without being judgmental but knowing that most of the time I really don't want drinking to have a central focus in my life, and partly because I've spent a lot of time making sure I'm clear about the meta-role I want alcohol to have in my life as well as understanding that when I'm under the influence, that vision changes and I should be paying attention to my original vision. It's really hard, but ultimately worthwhile.
posted by jessamyn at 4:11 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by jessamyn at 4:11 PM on July 16, 2012
I think the idea of learning how to drink moderately is fine, but I see a lot of red flags in your proposal. It seems like you've thought a lot (weirdly a lot, as something something pointed out) about the when/where/how, but about the why.
In fact, we're not doing this because we especially feel the need or want to drink, it's because there are elements of life (especially social) that we'd like to re-introduce to ourselves in a healthy manner.
- What elements of life, in particular, are you referring to?
- You mentioned: hanging out on weekend nights, playing board games, date nights, cooking at home, and going on vacation. Are these things that you don't currently do, or feel that you can't do without drinking alcohol?
- Why do you feel alcohol would improve these experiences? Is it that you think a nice wine would improve your meal, or that you'd have more fun slightly buzzed/tipsy?
- How do you think the occasional buzz would affect/improve your relationship? Would it make you more relaxed, more open with each other, funnier, more flirtatious...? Is that something you feel only alcohol can help you achieve?
Other things you didn't address: I'm concerned that you're doing this together, because there's a risk of enabling each other, and you may not realize when things are getting out of hand. What happens if one person wants to drink and the other doesn't? Also, do you socialize with other adults? Do they drink? How will your drinking change your relationship with them?
posted by acidic at 4:13 PM on July 16, 2012
In fact, we're not doing this because we especially feel the need or want to drink, it's because there are elements of life (especially social) that we'd like to re-introduce to ourselves in a healthy manner.
- What elements of life, in particular, are you referring to?
- You mentioned: hanging out on weekend nights, playing board games, date nights, cooking at home, and going on vacation. Are these things that you don't currently do, or feel that you can't do without drinking alcohol?
- Why do you feel alcohol would improve these experiences? Is it that you think a nice wine would improve your meal, or that you'd have more fun slightly buzzed/tipsy?
- How do you think the occasional buzz would affect/improve your relationship? Would it make you more relaxed, more open with each other, funnier, more flirtatious...? Is that something you feel only alcohol can help you achieve?
Other things you didn't address: I'm concerned that you're doing this together, because there's a risk of enabling each other, and you may not realize when things are getting out of hand. What happens if one person wants to drink and the other doesn't? Also, do you socialize with other adults? Do they drink? How will your drinking change your relationship with them?
posted by acidic at 4:13 PM on July 16, 2012
I consider myself and my husband to be moderate drinkers and what you lay out above as your plan for moderate still seems like a lot to me. Especially since you are re-introducing yourself to drinking. I think that you should consider having only one drink in one sitting, and not drink two nights in a row. In your case, I would consider 2-3 drinks per week as opposed to 9. Now I'm not an expert in alcoholism by any means, but it seems like introducing so much alcohol and enough to get you buzzed in one sitting is not a good idea, even though you feel that your lifestyle and health has changed. Also, you don't address the amount of alcohol in each of the drinks that you'll be having - one thing I've learned from being married to an avid beer drinker is that you can a beer in everything from 4-18%. So I would also suggest starting with drinks that are low in alcohol (which I think you probably are, since you talk about wine above).
posted by echo0720 at 4:32 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by echo0720 at 4:32 PM on July 16, 2012
The other thing I would add, if you're going to do this, is zero drinking and driving. Seriously-- no drinking unless you have arranged a ride home. You don't say what your history with alcohol was that got you to the point of abstaining. If you are an alcoholic-- you may just not be able to know for sure, at this stage-- when you get a few drinks in you, all bets are off. You may be OK nine times out of ten but the tenth will be the time you wind up drunk behind the wheel.
posted by BibiRose at 4:34 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by BibiRose at 4:34 PM on July 16, 2012
Why not start out slower? Say, buy a nice bottle of wine, make dinner, you each drink one glass of wine, you pour out the rest of the bottle, and then you see how you feel later that evening, the next day, the next week. If everything is fine, you could do the same thing again the next month. There's no hurry; you could start out with one glass of wine a month. If that makes you anxious or worried, that's something to explore.
I think it would be ideal to do this while you both, individually or together, are in therapy with someone who specializes in addiction. You don't necessarily need to see that person every week forever, just have regular check-ins as you make your way through the process.
I also agree on the zero drinking that day if there is any possibility you will be driving.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:54 PM on July 16, 2012
I think it would be ideal to do this while you both, individually or together, are in therapy with someone who specializes in addiction. You don't necessarily need to see that person every week forever, just have regular check-ins as you make your way through the process.
I also agree on the zero drinking that day if there is any possibility you will be driving.
posted by insectosaurus at 4:54 PM on July 16, 2012
This doesn't actually answer your specific questions, but I consider myself a moderate drinker, and I think 9 drinks a week is a lot. I am a woman who has spent a lot of time in France and I'm down with the whole red wine as health-food thing, but 9 drinks a week just strikes me as a lot. As in, if I knew one of my female friends was changing their lifestyle to incorporate that much drinking, I'd be concerned.
Also - and this is really important - one serving of alcohol referred to as a "1 drink" is much less than what people serve themselves and call one drink. So if you're looking at studies about alcohol and drinking habits and they refer to # of drinks, it's actually much less alcohol than you visualize. This is especially true for wine! People fill up the glass, and it's really 2 or 2.5 the amount for "1 drink."
I'm a little too lazy to dig it up the cites now, but there are studies that show that people don't really know how much other people drinking. The heavy drinkers are most visible and skew other people's perceptions of "normal" or "moderate" even though the actual "moderate" people are drinking way less than what the heavy drinkers call "moderate."
You don't mention this as a concern, but I'll throw it out there: alcohol has a lot of calories.
posted by stowaway at 5:07 PM on July 16, 2012
Also - and this is really important - one serving of alcohol referred to as a "1 drink" is much less than what people serve themselves and call one drink. So if you're looking at studies about alcohol and drinking habits and they refer to # of drinks, it's actually much less alcohol than you visualize. This is especially true for wine! People fill up the glass, and it's really 2 or 2.5 the amount for "1 drink."
I'm a little too lazy to dig it up the cites now, but there are studies that show that people don't really know how much other people drinking. The heavy drinkers are most visible and skew other people's perceptions of "normal" or "moderate" even though the actual "moderate" people are drinking way less than what the heavy drinkers call "moderate."
You don't mention this as a concern, but I'll throw it out there: alcohol has a lot of calories.
posted by stowaway at 5:07 PM on July 16, 2012
If you're going to drink during the week, you need to combine your date night/nice meal/board game nights into one night per week. I get that there is something special about having a few drinks at home with your SO, and in fact it's the only thing I miss about drinking. (I'm a couple of years into what may be almost a decade of pregnancies and nursing.) I think one night drinking out and one night drinking in is plenty of drinking per week.
posted by that's how you get ants at 5:43 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by that's how you get ants at 5:43 PM on July 16, 2012
I would probably not keep alcohol in the house if I were you. I am not a big drinker, but I loooove ice cream. When ice cream is at my house, I will eat it. When ice cream is at the store, it doesn't really seem worth it. Also, drinking in bars is expensive and may be the built-in "oh snap do I really want to do this?" mechanism you need.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 5:49 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by masquesoporfavor at 5:49 PM on July 16, 2012
Doing this as precisely as you've outlined so as to stay within predetermined limits of moderate drinking betrays that this will be uncomfortable at best. It's 'white knuckling' through abstaining from drinking only it's white knuckling through staying within a set of rules in order to drink two drinks x amount of times a week. That sounds painful and risky–not relaxing and happy. A few people above have outlined ways they keep their drinking in check–perimeters they have established that work for them. I quit drinking 1.5 years ago in order to avoid nicotine relapse. I realized it was easier to quit everything than to attempt to do anything within 'moderation'. Nine drinks a week isn't what I think of as moderate, though. Also, the lack of subsequent/consecutive drinks may or may not work for you. You need to ask why this is important to you and your partner after five years of sobriety because, if you are addicted to alcohol, this either won't work at all or it will be an exercise in extreme discipline. Reintroducing alcohol into your system will ramp up how often you think about drinking. As well, doing this with your partner complicates things if you decide you want to go back to sobriety and they don't (or vice versa). I would definitely talk to a therapist about guidelines for this. Put support in place and find what works for you specifically. Good luck.
posted by marimeko at 6:01 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by marimeko at 6:01 PM on July 16, 2012
My doctor just quoted me the figure of seven drinks per week - not nine - as the lower-risk level for women. Looks like this Moderation Management site (about which I know nothing else) also agrees.
And what is being said about the number of drinks is true. A "drink" of wine is 5 ounces - just a little over half a cup. Most people pour a much bigger glass of wine than that if not measuring.
Your "low-consumption" plan looks a lot like some of our highest-drinking weeks around my house, and frankly when we are doing that I think it's way too much and we have worked to cut back and pull in our own parameters. I'd like to be at no more than two nights a week, no more than two drinks a session, with very rare exceptions.
I found this interesting Check Your Drinking site which gives feedback on your drinking habits and how they compare to the rest of the population your age. It's based on data from Canada, but I doubt there's a massive difference. It may help you get a sense whether your number of proposed drinks and drinking events per week is truly average, or greater or lesser than average.
I can tell you that I put in my habits on a fairly typical week (12 drinks over 7 days) and that puts me well above the average.
posted by Miko at 6:54 PM on July 16, 2012
And what is being said about the number of drinks is true. A "drink" of wine is 5 ounces - just a little over half a cup. Most people pour a much bigger glass of wine than that if not measuring.
Your "low-consumption" plan looks a lot like some of our highest-drinking weeks around my house, and frankly when we are doing that I think it's way too much and we have worked to cut back and pull in our own parameters. I'd like to be at no more than two nights a week, no more than two drinks a session, with very rare exceptions.
I found this interesting Check Your Drinking site which gives feedback on your drinking habits and how they compare to the rest of the population your age. It's based on data from Canada, but I doubt there's a massive difference. It may help you get a sense whether your number of proposed drinks and drinking events per week is truly average, or greater or lesser than average.
I can tell you that I put in my habits on a fairly typical week (12 drinks over 7 days) and that puts me well above the average.
posted by Miko at 6:54 PM on July 16, 2012
(Also, I don't know if budget is a concern, but that site lets you enter the average cost of a drink. We go out maybe twice a week to have a meal with some drinks or just some drinks, and otherwise buy a six-pack or wine to bring home. And I'm spending $1500 a year on that stuff. Yikes. Do you have the money to change this habit?)
posted by Miko at 6:56 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by Miko at 6:56 PM on July 16, 2012
This adds up to drinking, at minimum 3/7 night of the weeks, and at maximum, 6/7 nights of the week.
I drink whenever I feel like it, enjoy wine, and am friends with a lot of people who feel the same way. I'm not trying to be insulting but just honest - the only two people I know who drink as often as the above are the two who exhibit all the generally accepted signs of alcoholism. I'm not trying to say drinking that often is an indication that you are an alcoholic or it is an alcoholic behavior in and of itself. Just trying to give you an idea of "average" behavior in my particular social circle.
Let me ask you a question. Say you were going to have one of these drinking nights. Maybe the game night. If you were planning to have the game night that night, and then found out you could not have alcohol (say you didn't get to the liquor store before it closed) would you be disappointed/upset?
posted by cairdeas at 7:34 PM on July 16, 2012
I drink whenever I feel like it, enjoy wine, and am friends with a lot of people who feel the same way. I'm not trying to be insulting but just honest - the only two people I know who drink as often as the above are the two who exhibit all the generally accepted signs of alcoholism. I'm not trying to say drinking that often is an indication that you are an alcoholic or it is an alcoholic behavior in and of itself. Just trying to give you an idea of "average" behavior in my particular social circle.
Let me ask you a question. Say you were going to have one of these drinking nights. Maybe the game night. If you were planning to have the game night that night, and then found out you could not have alcohol (say you didn't get to the liquor store before it closed) would you be disappointed/upset?
posted by cairdeas at 7:34 PM on July 16, 2012
Nine drinks a week sounds like a lot to me. I consider myself a moderate drinker at 4-5 a week. Most weeks 2-3.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:38 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:38 PM on July 16, 2012
You said you wanted literature. Check out the work of Insoo Kim-Berg and Scott Miller. Particularly The Miracle Method.
Rabbitrabbit had it right. If you find yourself questioning whether or not you're on the right track, most likely, you're not on the right track. Sounds like a dud of an answer, but it is probably the truth.
If you want support with reintegrating alcohol into your life, see a therapist who is well versed in harm reduction.
Ask yourself exactly what it is you want from alcohol keep in mind that it's a tricky substance for many people and don't feel bad if your new relationship doesn't work out.
posted by shushufindi at 9:16 PM on July 16, 2012
Rabbitrabbit had it right. If you find yourself questioning whether or not you're on the right track, most likely, you're not on the right track. Sounds like a dud of an answer, but it is probably the truth.
If you want support with reintegrating alcohol into your life, see a therapist who is well versed in harm reduction.
Ask yourself exactly what it is you want from alcohol keep in mind that it's a tricky substance for many people and don't feel bad if your new relationship doesn't work out.
posted by shushufindi at 9:16 PM on July 16, 2012
-- Any form of obsession or planning activities to "create" reasons to drink
If you read your post, though, it really seems like that's what you're doing right now.
I don't think that's fair; OP & partner have to work out the rules in detail if they are going to do this trial run responsibly. People who have never had an alcohol problem don't have to obsess in this way, it's true; and in fact "do you worry about your level of drinking?" is one of the red flag questions on all the assessment questionnaires. I think that once you've crossed the line into problematic drinking, though, you've lost the luxury of ever drinking again in an un-selfconscious way. See jessamyn's "I think about drinking All The Time." This is a different thing, though, from doing what the alcoholic does in always trying to manipulate circumstances to get to the next drink.
OP, I'd just suggest you read and reread jessamyn's posts in this thread because they are so on-point. I think she is lucky to have a partner who is willing to work with her (also credit her commitment to not arguing with partner). A lot of SOs of people who have struggled with alcohol are NOT willing to act as referee, as they've done it in the past and it can be a terrible role to be stuck in (if the alcohol abuser pushes back, the partner ends up being either enabler or enforcer, and neither is fun; I've put someone in this position myself). I bring this up in order to note, you and your partner don't have any experience with acting in this role for each other, as you got together after both of you were sober.
I don't think what you're attempting is impossible, but it's definitely complicated by the fact that both of you have a history of alcohol abuse. It seems like, for your plan to work, you have to sink or swim together, and that might not be easy. In addition to the guidelines for frequency/amounts that you're putting together, just make sure you're really prepared for what happens if your experiment results in different outcomes for the two of you. There's lots more for you to think about, of course; I'm just throwing that out there since I know from experience what a strain alcohol can place on a relationship when one person handles it fine and the other doesn't. Especially since you say that you have "built a pretty great life together," which sounds like something you definitely don't want to jeopardize.
Good luck to both of you, seriously.
posted by torticat at 10:56 PM on July 16, 2012
If you read your post, though, it really seems like that's what you're doing right now.
I don't think that's fair; OP & partner have to work out the rules in detail if they are going to do this trial run responsibly. People who have never had an alcohol problem don't have to obsess in this way, it's true; and in fact "do you worry about your level of drinking?" is one of the red flag questions on all the assessment questionnaires. I think that once you've crossed the line into problematic drinking, though, you've lost the luxury of ever drinking again in an un-selfconscious way. See jessamyn's "I think about drinking All The Time." This is a different thing, though, from doing what the alcoholic does in always trying to manipulate circumstances to get to the next drink.
OP, I'd just suggest you read and reread jessamyn's posts in this thread because they are so on-point. I think she is lucky to have a partner who is willing to work with her (also credit her commitment to not arguing with partner). A lot of SOs of people who have struggled with alcohol are NOT willing to act as referee, as they've done it in the past and it can be a terrible role to be stuck in (if the alcohol abuser pushes back, the partner ends up being either enabler or enforcer, and neither is fun; I've put someone in this position myself). I bring this up in order to note, you and your partner don't have any experience with acting in this role for each other, as you got together after both of you were sober.
I don't think what you're attempting is impossible, but it's definitely complicated by the fact that both of you have a history of alcohol abuse. It seems like, for your plan to work, you have to sink or swim together, and that might not be easy. In addition to the guidelines for frequency/amounts that you're putting together, just make sure you're really prepared for what happens if your experiment results in different outcomes for the two of you. There's lots more for you to think about, of course; I'm just throwing that out there since I know from experience what a strain alcohol can place on a relationship when one person handles it fine and the other doesn't. Especially since you say that you have "built a pretty great life together," which sounds like something you definitely don't want to jeopardize.
Good luck to both of you, seriously.
posted by torticat at 10:56 PM on July 16, 2012
After 25 years of extensive research on the subject of drinking, (including years of vastly excessive consumption and complete abstention) I can assure you that (in my experience):
drinking is not an important a component of a happy and fulfilling life.
If you have to plan out how and when to drink, it really might not be worth it at all.
There's a lot to do in life and a beer or glass of wine can be nice but the downside (incapacitating drunkenness) is so big and the upside so marginal that if in doubt, (for me) the best plan has proven to be to just leave it. I've never felt regret for not having had a drink, the things I regret for having drunk though - that is one sad epic, uninteresting novel.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:58 AM on July 17, 2012
drinking is not an important a component of a happy and fulfilling life.
If you have to plan out how and when to drink, it really might not be worth it at all.
There's a lot to do in life and a beer or glass of wine can be nice but the downside (incapacitating drunkenness) is so big and the upside so marginal that if in doubt, (for me) the best plan has proven to be to just leave it. I've never felt regret for not having had a drink, the things I regret for having drunk though - that is one sad epic, uninteresting novel.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:58 AM on July 17, 2012
I'm the most moderate drinker there is. Your schedule seemed like an awful lot of alcohol to me.
When I was younger, I drank in social settings. Out with friends, at some dinners. But even then it was situational. I never drank at home, unless I was hosting a get-together.
As I've aged, I've noticed that it's less interesting to me and that my capacity is next to nil.
I rarely finish a drink, and I get pretty lit, pretty fast. I have about one drink every two months.
Based on the fact that you have a history of drinking to excess, I'm wondering why you feel that you want to have moderate alcohol consumption as part of your life? What do you think you're missing?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:37 AM on July 17, 2012
When I was younger, I drank in social settings. Out with friends, at some dinners. But even then it was situational. I never drank at home, unless I was hosting a get-together.
As I've aged, I've noticed that it's less interesting to me and that my capacity is next to nil.
I rarely finish a drink, and I get pretty lit, pretty fast. I have about one drink every two months.
Based on the fact that you have a history of drinking to excess, I'm wondering why you feel that you want to have moderate alcohol consumption as part of your life? What do you think you're missing?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:37 AM on July 17, 2012
We each had untreated mental health issues that are now well-managed.
In addition to all the other good advice here, I think you should talk with the doctor you are seeing for that. You are seeing a doctor, right? I am sometimes surprised at how little medical doctors will warn you about alcohol or look into your usage. I asked my doctor about drinking while taking Prozac and she said, "Just don't drink a lot," or something. (And alcohol and Prozac turned out to be a horrible mix, for me.) But if your doctor knows you had enough of an issue to go to AA, they may be more aware.
posted by BibiRose at 7:17 AM on July 17, 2012
In addition to all the other good advice here, I think you should talk with the doctor you are seeing for that. You are seeing a doctor, right? I am sometimes surprised at how little medical doctors will warn you about alcohol or look into your usage. I asked my doctor about drinking while taking Prozac and she said, "Just don't drink a lot," or something. (And alcohol and Prozac turned out to be a horrible mix, for me.) But if your doctor knows you had enough of an issue to go to AA, they may be more aware.
posted by BibiRose at 7:17 AM on July 17, 2012
have you considered easing into it very slowly, maybe one night of alcohol in moderation (like 2 drinks max) in a month? Then you could take some time to think about it and discuss with your partner and see how you're feeling about it. That way you'd also be able to tell if you're missing drinking, which would be an early red flag. Considering your history it might be smart to take it slow rather than jumping into very frequent drinking.
What your post describes as "moderate" would be fairly intense drinking for my social group - I don't try to moderate my intake at all but only drink maybe once every few weeks and very rarely on a weeknight or two days in a row.
If I were you, I'd be really worried about such a dramatic change, from zero to very frequent drinking. Baby steps.
posted by randomnity at 8:08 AM on July 17, 2012
What your post describes as "moderate" would be fairly intense drinking for my social group - I don't try to moderate my intake at all but only drink maybe once every few weeks and very rarely on a weeknight or two days in a row.
If I were you, I'd be really worried about such a dramatic change, from zero to very frequent drinking. Baby steps.
posted by randomnity at 8:08 AM on July 17, 2012
If you have to plan out how and when to drink, it really might not be worth it at all.
Yeah. And most addicts lives are all about laying the groundwork for consuming their substance. They make plans. Sometimes they make elaborate rules. But they spend a lot of time thinking about it.
How about, just have a glass of wine next time you are out to dinner and see how you both react?
I would suggest, however, that you don't keep booze in the house until you are super sure you are both OK with controlling yourselves.
posted by gjc at 7:31 PM on July 17, 2012
Yeah. And most addicts lives are all about laying the groundwork for consuming their substance. They make plans. Sometimes they make elaborate rules. But they spend a lot of time thinking about it.
How about, just have a glass of wine next time you are out to dinner and see how you both react?
I would suggest, however, that you don't keep booze in the house until you are super sure you are both OK with controlling yourselves.
posted by gjc at 7:31 PM on July 17, 2012
An addiction is something you have for the rest of your life. Your post is sending off a lot of alarm bells.
I consider myself a heavy drinker (to the point that a few times I have questioned whether I had a problem) and it seems like the schedule you've set out does seem a bit intense. I don't drink at all during the week - something I decided after coming into work hungover way to many times and maybe a glass or two on the weekends (unless it's a social gathering). To me - that's moderate.
posted by Danithegirl at 6:06 AM on July 18, 2012
I consider myself a heavy drinker (to the point that a few times I have questioned whether I had a problem) and it seems like the schedule you've set out does seem a bit intense. I don't drink at all during the week - something I decided after coming into work hungover way to many times and maybe a glass or two on the weekends (unless it's a social gathering). To me - that's moderate.
posted by Danithegirl at 6:06 AM on July 18, 2012
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we're currently limiting ourselves to two drinks each on only one weekend night per week, until we have a better idea of where we stand
Why not make this your game plan for the foreseeable future--six months, a year at least? There's nothing wrong with drinking in extreme moderation; using it as a drug to enhance special occasions. Try this out; you might find that it's a pattern that you stick with for many months. You're testing the waters now, and you don't need to dive in head first.
posted by Gordion Knott at 3:26 PM on July 16, 2012