I need job references. I've only worked for the family business and they won't be fair.
July 16, 2012 8:34 AM Subscribe
I am currently applying for a new job. The problem is I have worked for family since college for the past 9 years. I don't of course want to tip them off that I'm considering other work, and they are somewhat vindictive, so I don't want to ask them for a reference prior to leaving, nor would I expect to get a fair reference from them.
This leaves customers of the business for references, most of whom like and appreciate my work with them, but most of whom would be shocked that I was leaving and might tip off my family. My other option is to dredge up contacts from college I haven't spoken to since college.
I have a portfolio of work that I believe will give me ample qualifications for the new job. I am unsure how the references issue might play out. How do I handle this with my prospective employer?
Help is much appreciated.
This leaves customers of the business for references, most of whom like and appreciate my work with them, but most of whom would be shocked that I was leaving and might tip off my family. My other option is to dredge up contacts from college I haven't spoken to since college.
I have a portfolio of work that I believe will give me ample qualifications for the new job. I am unsure how the references issue might play out. How do I handle this with my prospective employer?
Help is much appreciated.
In my experience, most companies don't require references from your current employer, only previous employers. (They may however call your references after an employment offer has already been extended.)
I would not even mention the "vindictive family" context if I were you. Simply say you can't give references for your current job since it would tip your employers off that you are looking elsewhere, and endanger your career.
If they ask for references after the employment offer has been extended, use clients who will speak glowingly of you. Do not use anybody you can't rely on - companies can and do rescind employment offers if the background check turns up anything they don't like. (Most employment offers now have the words "contingent on a background check" hidden in the fine print.)
posted by wolfdreams01 at 8:47 AM on July 16, 2012
I would not even mention the "vindictive family" context if I were you. Simply say you can't give references for your current job since it would tip your employers off that you are looking elsewhere, and endanger your career.
If they ask for references after the employment offer has been extended, use clients who will speak glowingly of you. Do not use anybody you can't rely on - companies can and do rescind employment offers if the background check turns up anything they don't like. (Most employment offers now have the words "contingent on a background check" hidden in the fine print.)
posted by wolfdreams01 at 8:47 AM on July 16, 2012
At some point you are going to have to tell your family you are leaving the family business.
Is there anyone in the business that you trust to give you a good reference? Any client or outside vendor you trust not to immediately tattle behind your back? Do you have any career connections who are not vindictive assholes out to sabotage you?
posted by Sara C. at 8:47 AM on July 16, 2012
Is there anyone in the business that you trust to give you a good reference? Any client or outside vendor you trust not to immediately tattle behind your back? Do you have any career connections who are not vindictive assholes out to sabotage you?
posted by Sara C. at 8:47 AM on July 16, 2012
I would let potential employers know that you will provide references if/when the interview/hiring process reaches the point at which they need to call them. This will make you unattractive to employers that call references as part of the screening process (yes, some do this) and may affect jobs with anonymous online applications, but it means you can hold off talking to clients until you are ready to talk to your family.
posted by headnsouth at 8:51 AM on July 16, 2012
posted by headnsouth at 8:51 AM on July 16, 2012
Response by poster: I would definitely not want to bring any unpleasant business up about my family with a prospective employer. I guess my task is figuring out how to communicate that I will not be giving any references from my employers of the last nine years, if that comes up, in a way that sounds smooth and professional. Complicated by the fact that my employer prior to my family was a college job that doesn't reflect my current level of experience.
I can think of only one customer who would reliably give me a reference and keep mum.
posted by KoiPond at 9:13 AM on July 16, 2012
I can think of only one customer who would reliably give me a reference and keep mum.
posted by KoiPond at 9:13 AM on July 16, 2012
In my experience, references are only contacted after the interview stage (that is, they like you and want to hire you, but they need to confirm that you are who you say you are.) It may be appropriate at the end of the interview (or whenever you are asked for references) to mention that you have not yet told your current employers that you are looking for other employment, but that someone at the company will confirm your employment.
I'm assuming there's a receptionist/secretary/someone who answers phones who can answer that question without being tipped off to "KoiPond is looking for a new job."
posted by Flamingo at 9:19 AM on July 16, 2012
I'm assuming there's a receptionist/secretary/someone who answers phones who can answer that question without being tipped off to "KoiPond is looking for a new job."
posted by Flamingo at 9:19 AM on July 16, 2012
You could use the standard line of, "References provided upon request" and indicate that it is Not Okay to Contact Your Present Employer.
This move opens up the door for you to explain your work situation. "I am employed in a family business" will suffice, even better if you can make it, "I am employed by X and Y brothers, a family-owned company since 1989", which gives the impression of long-lasting stability and makes you look reliable, which employers appreciate. This also gives you a heads-up before anyone calls a family member.
But yes, you will have to open up to your family eventually. Maybe you should be thinking about how you will handle that situation now. Why does it need to be a betrayal, and why are you so sure it will end up in a vindictive place? Can you do anything now to mitigate that, like finding someone to take your place there, or making your leaving less of a personal issue and more of a professional growth scenario? For instance, if you said that you needed to get some training in your field (and maybe even attended some classes), rather than just jumping ship?
posted by misha at 9:37 AM on July 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
This move opens up the door for you to explain your work situation. "I am employed in a family business" will suffice, even better if you can make it, "I am employed by X and Y brothers, a family-owned company since 1989", which gives the impression of long-lasting stability and makes you look reliable, which employers appreciate. This also gives you a heads-up before anyone calls a family member.
But yes, you will have to open up to your family eventually. Maybe you should be thinking about how you will handle that situation now. Why does it need to be a betrayal, and why are you so sure it will end up in a vindictive place? Can you do anything now to mitigate that, like finding someone to take your place there, or making your leaving less of a personal issue and more of a professional growth scenario? For instance, if you said that you needed to get some training in your field (and maybe even attended some classes), rather than just jumping ship?
posted by misha at 9:37 AM on July 16, 2012 [2 favorites]
If they simply need to verify dates of employment and current salary, one possibility is getting a letter of verification from your company. If it's plausible that you might be considering buying property or refinancing it if you already have some, such a letter is a necessary part of getting a mortgage, so you might be able to get one without raising suspicions about job-hopping. Of course, then you might get real estate advice from your family.
In general, having remained at a single job for many years shows stability (though the family business aspect may count against that, I'm not sure), so you can present it as a positive from that aspect.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:37 AM on July 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
In general, having remained at a single job for many years shows stability (though the family business aspect may count against that, I'm not sure), so you can present it as a positive from that aspect.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:37 AM on July 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your situation is very common. In fact, I just went through a job search with an employer who was quite vindictive and generally awful when they found out I was leaving.
First, most employers will be quite understanding if you request they not contact your current employer. There are all sorts of reasons why this could not be possible for you that have nothing to do with working for family who are vindictive. My explanation was that my current employer would take me off of our important accounts if they knew I was looking.
Second, for references I used former coworkers who had already left my previous employer. I could also have used a couple of former clients. Would either of these categories work for you? If your employers are as vindictive as you say, they have probably made a few enemies in the past nine years who would be glad to help you get out. Mine had. Also, the future company didn't even contact the references.
Third, I expected my clients to be upset to find out I was leaving, but the ones I had good relationships with were uniformly supportive and thrilled to hear about my new opportunity. The clients were only concerned that there would be a proper transition and their work would continue to be handled well. This is how normal people behave...it can be tough to remember this when you're surrounded by a culture where these types of business decisions are taken very personally.
Finally, after receiving my offer and handing in my notice, my previous employer did indeed contact my future employer to say negative things about me with the goal of getting future employer to rescind my offer. This didn't work as it was pretty clear that was what they were doing. It just made future employer more convinced that I must be quite something if my current employer would go to such lengths, and more determined to bring me on board.
Best of luck!
posted by psycheslamp at 9:38 AM on July 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
First, most employers will be quite understanding if you request they not contact your current employer. There are all sorts of reasons why this could not be possible for you that have nothing to do with working for family who are vindictive. My explanation was that my current employer would take me off of our important accounts if they knew I was looking.
Second, for references I used former coworkers who had already left my previous employer. I could also have used a couple of former clients. Would either of these categories work for you? If your employers are as vindictive as you say, they have probably made a few enemies in the past nine years who would be glad to help you get out. Mine had. Also, the future company didn't even contact the references.
Third, I expected my clients to be upset to find out I was leaving, but the ones I had good relationships with were uniformly supportive and thrilled to hear about my new opportunity. The clients were only concerned that there would be a proper transition and their work would continue to be handled well. This is how normal people behave...it can be tough to remember this when you're surrounded by a culture where these types of business decisions are taken very personally.
Finally, after receiving my offer and handing in my notice, my previous employer did indeed contact my future employer to say negative things about me with the goal of getting future employer to rescind my offer. This didn't work as it was pretty clear that was what they were doing. It just made future employer more convinced that I must be quite something if my current employer would go to such lengths, and more determined to bring me on board.
Best of luck!
posted by psycheslamp at 9:38 AM on July 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Are you sure you shouldn't work this out with your family first? They are your family. Any employer of 9 years will feel mistreated if you bail out without warning, but your family would have a legitimate cause to feel betrayed. And they will hold a grudge much longer than a regular employer. Do you really want to piss off your whole family?
I would regard this as a political challenge. I would find the person who is most likely to react well, and start talking up how you need to spread your wings and fly -- in general, with no date attached to it. Then when you've got her on board, start working the next person down the line. By the time you get to the people who maybe wouldn't react well, you've got everyone else in the family lined up, and anyone they talk to will be all, "Koipond has given us 9 years, he really needs to move on."
I think if you take the time to explain your own point of view honestly and firmly, one on one, and then really listen to your family members about how to transition out, more people will take your side than you might think. As family, after all, they are obliged to consider what is best for you, which regular employers do not.
posted by musofire at 10:31 AM on July 16, 2012
I would regard this as a political challenge. I would find the person who is most likely to react well, and start talking up how you need to spread your wings and fly -- in general, with no date attached to it. Then when you've got her on board, start working the next person down the line. By the time you get to the people who maybe wouldn't react well, you've got everyone else in the family lined up, and anyone they talk to will be all, "Koipond has given us 9 years, he really needs to move on."
I think if you take the time to explain your own point of view honestly and firmly, one on one, and then really listen to your family members about how to transition out, more people will take your side than you might think. As family, after all, they are obliged to consider what is best for you, which regular employers do not.
posted by musofire at 10:31 AM on July 16, 2012
Response by poster: The business is dominated by a couple of individuals who are way out on the end of the bell curve in terms of personality. Control and dominance issues. These are people that would not look inward and try to see why I would want to leave, they would not wish me the best or offer me more money, and as their ego would be bruised by my leaving I am concerned that they would want to cause me harm. That is largely why I would like to leave. I no longer care to have a relationship with these people. In light of the facts, I think I should leave with as little prior warning as I can.
The business is fairly small, it would be difficult to find past employees; there aren't many. I am listed on the company's website as any employee though.
posted by KoiPond at 11:20 AM on July 16, 2012
The business is fairly small, it would be difficult to find past employees; there aren't many. I am listed on the company's website as any employee though.
posted by KoiPond at 11:20 AM on July 16, 2012
Wow. Just read through your history.
How are you applying? In person or through a huge website thing where you might/might not be able to accurately portray your portfolio? Is it possible to submit a printed application and printed portfolio, along with a note that you submitted online (so they can find you in the giant HR website)?
Have a portfolio ready, have the customer(s) ready. What about vendors? Any of them willing?
Basically, I'd put out your resume carefully; not everyone will read "Please don't contact current employer" - especially if a recruiter asks for your resume in editable format and edits it (TRUE STORY, GRR).
How intertwined are you with this company? Are you going to get kicked out of your house, barred from the business premises? (I recall having the cops threatened to be called on me for "trespassing". That and everything culminating to that point has led to an irrevocable breach that I've been okay with for a couple of decades now).
Is it possible to make any sort of clean break, taking any sort of job - maybe a friend you know who runs a business office is going on maternity leave and you can do her job for a few months and be able to more freely search for a job with your portfolio with out dreading "that moment" when it comes up that you're leaving - because you've already left.
That said, I know it's hard, very very very very hard to get away from a toxic family and employment environment. Good luck.
posted by tilde at 1:11 PM on July 16, 2012
How are you applying? In person or through a huge website thing where you might/might not be able to accurately portray your portfolio? Is it possible to submit a printed application and printed portfolio, along with a note that you submitted online (so they can find you in the giant HR website)?
Have a portfolio ready, have the customer(s) ready. What about vendors? Any of them willing?
Basically, I'd put out your resume carefully; not everyone will read "Please don't contact current employer" - especially if a recruiter asks for your resume in editable format and edits it (TRUE STORY, GRR).
How intertwined are you with this company? Are you going to get kicked out of your house, barred from the business premises? (I recall having the cops threatened to be called on me for "trespassing". That and everything culminating to that point has led to an irrevocable breach that I've been okay with for a couple of decades now).
Is it possible to make any sort of clean break, taking any sort of job - maybe a friend you know who runs a business office is going on maternity leave and you can do her job for a few months and be able to more freely search for a job with your portfolio with out dreading "that moment" when it comes up that you're leaving - because you've already left.
That said, I know it's hard, very very very very hard to get away from a toxic family and employment environment. Good luck.
posted by tilde at 1:11 PM on July 16, 2012
Best answer: No one calls references, these days
Oh, really? I work as a recruiter and my employers make reference calls regularly.
Now, to the OP's question...
Part of the answer to dealing with the reference issue lies in how you frame your motivation for leaving. Will it be obvious to Potential Employer that Current Employer is your family's business? If not, simply avoid all discussions of the culture, or environment. Focus, instead, on issues of "growth"; how you are ready to do X, Y and Z and just don't see the opportunity to do that where you are. If yes, you should still focus on the "growth" thing, though you may have to obliquely refer to the fact that the culture has simply become a "mismatch" for you. Say nothing that impugns management at Current Employer. "I just don't think I'm a 'fit' there." If asked why, return to the "growth" conversation.
If it's not obvious to Potential Employer that Current Employer is family business, then the reference issue might be best finessed with a statement (delivered in your best, "Gee, what can I do?" mode) to the effect that a) your lengthy tenure, combined with b) the fact that no one at Current Employer knows you're considering leaving means that there may not be anyone that Potential Employer could call. "Is there anything in particular that you hope to address in a reference call? Perhaps I could refer you to someone who could help with that?" And, see what they say.
If it IS obvious to Potential Employer that Current Employer is family business, you might have to play the candor card and point out that, "Well (again, in the "Gee what can I do? mode), because this is a family business, I'm afraid management will take my departure more personally than I intend. Under those circumstances, I'm not sure how reliable a reference you'd get."
Both tactics are designed to open the door on a discussion about alternatives to references. If Potential Employer sees no alternatives, and will not be placated, you might just have to suck it up, let the reference call get made, and let the chips fall where they may. If you have carefully (i.e., without blame-shifting) laid out your concerns, Potential Employer might put a little less weight on the references.
posted by John Borrowman at 1:32 PM on July 16, 2012
Oh, really? I work as a recruiter and my employers make reference calls regularly.
Now, to the OP's question...
Part of the answer to dealing with the reference issue lies in how you frame your motivation for leaving. Will it be obvious to Potential Employer that Current Employer is your family's business? If not, simply avoid all discussions of the culture, or environment. Focus, instead, on issues of "growth"; how you are ready to do X, Y and Z and just don't see the opportunity to do that where you are. If yes, you should still focus on the "growth" thing, though you may have to obliquely refer to the fact that the culture has simply become a "mismatch" for you. Say nothing that impugns management at Current Employer. "I just don't think I'm a 'fit' there." If asked why, return to the "growth" conversation.
If it's not obvious to Potential Employer that Current Employer is family business, then the reference issue might be best finessed with a statement (delivered in your best, "Gee, what can I do?" mode) to the effect that a) your lengthy tenure, combined with b) the fact that no one at Current Employer knows you're considering leaving means that there may not be anyone that Potential Employer could call. "Is there anything in particular that you hope to address in a reference call? Perhaps I could refer you to someone who could help with that?" And, see what they say.
If it IS obvious to Potential Employer that Current Employer is family business, you might have to play the candor card and point out that, "Well (again, in the "Gee what can I do? mode), because this is a family business, I'm afraid management will take my departure more personally than I intend. Under those circumstances, I'm not sure how reliable a reference you'd get."
Both tactics are designed to open the door on a discussion about alternatives to references. If Potential Employer sees no alternatives, and will not be placated, you might just have to suck it up, let the reference call get made, and let the chips fall where they may. If you have carefully (i.e., without blame-shifting) laid out your concerns, Potential Employer might put a little less weight on the references.
posted by John Borrowman at 1:32 PM on July 16, 2012
Response by poster: What information are employers seeking with a reference call? Will they ask my salary (which is quite low for my work) or just ask if do work there? Does the fact that my face and name is on the company website substitute for a verification that I work there?
I will be applying to a small firm, not a cattle call, so i will have the opportunity to share my portfolio and speak to the management.
It will be obvious to the potential employer that my current employers are close relatives.
I am not afraid of bodily harm. At least one of my employers clearly has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a conclusion I have come to very slowly based on certain behaviors. When threatened by opposing ideas, disapproval, or disobedience, this person will seek to control and destroy. This person has the emotions and morality of a small child with some potentially destructive grownup tool. I am primarily concerned about lies, slander, phone calls to my new employer or other entities that may impact my life. If you are not feeding this person's sense of themselves currently, you and your work are devalued. Toxic to the workplace.
Due to the nature of the beast, I was expecting to emphasize the "professional growth" aspect of my change in employment, insult no one, compliment where I honestly could and generally keep everything upbeat.
I am concerned about being underpaid at this new job if they base my salary off my old salary. How does one avoid this?
posted by KoiPond at 6:38 PM on July 16, 2012
I will be applying to a small firm, not a cattle call, so i will have the opportunity to share my portfolio and speak to the management.
It will be obvious to the potential employer that my current employers are close relatives.
I am not afraid of bodily harm. At least one of my employers clearly has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a conclusion I have come to very slowly based on certain behaviors. When threatened by opposing ideas, disapproval, or disobedience, this person will seek to control and destroy. This person has the emotions and morality of a small child with some potentially destructive grownup tool. I am primarily concerned about lies, slander, phone calls to my new employer or other entities that may impact my life. If you are not feeding this person's sense of themselves currently, you and your work are devalued. Toxic to the workplace.
Due to the nature of the beast, I was expecting to emphasize the "professional growth" aspect of my change in employment, insult no one, compliment where I honestly could and generally keep everything upbeat.
I am concerned about being underpaid at this new job if they base my salary off my old salary. How does one avoid this?
posted by KoiPond at 6:38 PM on July 16, 2012
In your case, by saying, when asked about your salary history, "Of course, being a family business, the salaries were not really commensurate with the industry norms."
posted by jacquilynne at 6:40 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by jacquilynne at 6:40 PM on July 16, 2012
Response by poster: I would be moving in this case to another small employer, so I'm not sure if they are concerned with industry norms as much as a larger firm would be.
posted by KoiPond at 6:49 PM on July 16, 2012
posted by KoiPond at 6:49 PM on July 16, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
Apply for jobs first, worry about references later.
posted by deanc at 8:47 AM on July 16, 2012 [4 favorites]