Help me come up with some unorthodox ideas to help my blocked 22 year old son
July 7, 2012 11:18 PM Subscribe
Can any of you suggest some situations in the world, in another country ideally, that need the help of a strong, courageous, smart, big-hearted young man and where there is at least one adult in charge of things who might command the respect of my son? These would have to be situations that do not expect payment from people coming to help. He would see that as a total scam. Long explanation inside.
This is a very odd question, I know. There's a lot of explanation to follow, but the gist is this - I am thinking of something like Mother Theresa’s Missionaries of Charity to recommend as a volunteer option for my son, but perhaps more physically demanding. My 22 year old son has the ADD hunter-gatherer makeup in many ways and I’d love to find something to recommend to him that would use those strengths. He’s not, in David Brooks’ words from the Op-Ed piece cited below, “collaborative, disciplined, neat, studious, industrious and ambitious.” He needs a place to develop his traditionally male attributes, where he can prove himself on a serious playing field and in a good cause. It would be ideal if it were a place I could go to with him, help out myself in some way, separate from what he’s doing, and then come home, leaving him there. He needs support to get up and out, I think.
Background: My 22 year old son is floundering. He’s lived in the same “progressive” small but hip town all his life. He dropped out of high school in 10th grade, went to community college, left college one class short of his associates' degree. He's living on his own in a 2-bedroom apartment and realizing his savings won't last forever. He’s not having a lot of luck finding a roommate, partly because he’s very messy. As far as I know his primary source of income is dealing grass. He’s also a good poker player. He's stoned too often, drinks too much, and spends a lot of time watching DVDs and playing video games. He doesn't have his driving license and has built it up into a huge deal.
He's a very talented musician and composer – music has very deep meaning for him – but he can't seem to gather the gumption and perhaps organization to really put a band together and play in front of a paying audience, even though he lives in a town where he could. I believe it matters too much to him, and he's afraid to put himself on the line.
He’s a Scorpio for what it’s worth. Very sensitive, huge heart, deep interest in the inner meaning of things, but spending too much time in scorpion mode, focusing on what he doesn’t like about the world and other people, rather than seeking out what he does like. He’s charismatic and shines when he’s able to lead. This great NY Times Op-Ed by David Brooks describes him to a T.
He is beginning to notice how he builds things up into paralyzing hurdles in his mind. Occasionally he lets on that he’s really unsure how to figure out what to do next in his life, how to move ahead. I wish he’d just get a job for starters, to get himself up and out of the house on a regular basis, start building up some self-esteem, the sense that he’s part of the world and can take care of himself, but that seems to require more decision making and focus than he’s capable of at the moment. He’s also so used to all his time being unstructured that he thinks getting a job would cut in too much to his time to go swimming, hang out with his friends, etc.!
As you might imagine, he doesn't respond well to authority. On the other hand, in the past he did respond very well to grading sorts of situations where he could measure where he stood and whether he'd done a good job. He does very well when he has to come up with his own ideas of how to solve a problem. He's great at just jumping in and trying things, like new musical instruments, cooking, gardening, foraging for edible plants. He doesn't worry too much whether he knows how to do something, he just plays around and notices what works. He's an excellent reader of social situations and people. He veers somewhat toward the paranoid and cautious, but there's always truth in what he sees. He’s also perfectly happy speaking out with an unpopular opinion and trying to persuade people to his way of thinking.
In many ways, I think my son is an anachronism, born in the wrong time and place. If he lived in a world where he had to hunt for his food, protect his family from marauding tribes, or even stand up against true oppression, he'd be the leader. I tell him he's the person I’d want next to me in a post-Apocalyptic world. As it is, he's angry and confused and can't figure out how to live in the world.
So - there are some reasons for his dilemma plain as the nose on his face, such as substance use, too much free time, etc., but they aren't things he's willing to do differently. On thing I think could help him would be an experience that shakes his reality and forces him to rely on his wits and abilities in somewhat challenging circumstances.
He doesn’t believe in organized activities or systems of any kind. For instance, I suggested WOOFing to him because he loves gardening. He said he didn’t need to go learn to garden working for someone else, that if he wants to garden he’ll get his own land (how??). He won’t go to a therapist because he doesn’t think people should get paid for helping other people. I don’t think any structured volunteering setups will work for him because he doesn’t like being just one more person in an already existing situation and doesn’t think he should work for anyone for free – or at least that’s my take on it. On the other hand, I think he’d jump in and help out for free without even thinking about it if he saw a real need staring him in the face. He does very thoughtful things for some of the street people in his town (but would never volunteer at a shelter with the do-gooders).
Thanks a lot for any suggestions. I’m sure I’m going to get some “tough love” advice about leaving him alone to figure it out on his own. That may end up being the only answer. Kicking him out of an apartment I owned that he was living in for free was the first step in that direction and it has helped. I just think there may be some way that I can get him away from the familiar enough to start seeing the world and himself differently.
This is a very odd question, I know. There's a lot of explanation to follow, but the gist is this - I am thinking of something like Mother Theresa’s Missionaries of Charity to recommend as a volunteer option for my son, but perhaps more physically demanding. My 22 year old son has the ADD hunter-gatherer makeup in many ways and I’d love to find something to recommend to him that would use those strengths. He’s not, in David Brooks’ words from the Op-Ed piece cited below, “collaborative, disciplined, neat, studious, industrious and ambitious.” He needs a place to develop his traditionally male attributes, where he can prove himself on a serious playing field and in a good cause. It would be ideal if it were a place I could go to with him, help out myself in some way, separate from what he’s doing, and then come home, leaving him there. He needs support to get up and out, I think.
Background: My 22 year old son is floundering. He’s lived in the same “progressive” small but hip town all his life. He dropped out of high school in 10th grade, went to community college, left college one class short of his associates' degree. He's living on his own in a 2-bedroom apartment and realizing his savings won't last forever. He’s not having a lot of luck finding a roommate, partly because he’s very messy. As far as I know his primary source of income is dealing grass. He’s also a good poker player. He's stoned too often, drinks too much, and spends a lot of time watching DVDs and playing video games. He doesn't have his driving license and has built it up into a huge deal.
He's a very talented musician and composer – music has very deep meaning for him – but he can't seem to gather the gumption and perhaps organization to really put a band together and play in front of a paying audience, even though he lives in a town where he could. I believe it matters too much to him, and he's afraid to put himself on the line.
He’s a Scorpio for what it’s worth. Very sensitive, huge heart, deep interest in the inner meaning of things, but spending too much time in scorpion mode, focusing on what he doesn’t like about the world and other people, rather than seeking out what he does like. He’s charismatic and shines when he’s able to lead. This great NY Times Op-Ed by David Brooks describes him to a T.
He is beginning to notice how he builds things up into paralyzing hurdles in his mind. Occasionally he lets on that he’s really unsure how to figure out what to do next in his life, how to move ahead. I wish he’d just get a job for starters, to get himself up and out of the house on a regular basis, start building up some self-esteem, the sense that he’s part of the world and can take care of himself, but that seems to require more decision making and focus than he’s capable of at the moment. He’s also so used to all his time being unstructured that he thinks getting a job would cut in too much to his time to go swimming, hang out with his friends, etc.!
As you might imagine, he doesn't respond well to authority. On the other hand, in the past he did respond very well to grading sorts of situations where he could measure where he stood and whether he'd done a good job. He does very well when he has to come up with his own ideas of how to solve a problem. He's great at just jumping in and trying things, like new musical instruments, cooking, gardening, foraging for edible plants. He doesn't worry too much whether he knows how to do something, he just plays around and notices what works. He's an excellent reader of social situations and people. He veers somewhat toward the paranoid and cautious, but there's always truth in what he sees. He’s also perfectly happy speaking out with an unpopular opinion and trying to persuade people to his way of thinking.
In many ways, I think my son is an anachronism, born in the wrong time and place. If he lived in a world where he had to hunt for his food, protect his family from marauding tribes, or even stand up against true oppression, he'd be the leader. I tell him he's the person I’d want next to me in a post-Apocalyptic world. As it is, he's angry and confused and can't figure out how to live in the world.
So - there are some reasons for his dilemma plain as the nose on his face, such as substance use, too much free time, etc., but they aren't things he's willing to do differently. On thing I think could help him would be an experience that shakes his reality and forces him to rely on his wits and abilities in somewhat challenging circumstances.
He doesn’t believe in organized activities or systems of any kind. For instance, I suggested WOOFing to him because he loves gardening. He said he didn’t need to go learn to garden working for someone else, that if he wants to garden he’ll get his own land (how??). He won’t go to a therapist because he doesn’t think people should get paid for helping other people. I don’t think any structured volunteering setups will work for him because he doesn’t like being just one more person in an already existing situation and doesn’t think he should work for anyone for free – or at least that’s my take on it. On the other hand, I think he’d jump in and help out for free without even thinking about it if he saw a real need staring him in the face. He does very thoughtful things for some of the street people in his town (but would never volunteer at a shelter with the do-gooders).
Thanks a lot for any suggestions. I’m sure I’m going to get some “tough love” advice about leaving him alone to figure it out on his own. That may end up being the only answer. Kicking him out of an apartment I owned that he was living in for free was the first step in that direction and it has helped. I just think there may be some way that I can get him away from the familiar enough to start seeing the world and himself differently.
Head says this is pretty much what the military is perfect for, but with the authority issues and wars the military is currently in, I'd totally understand hesitation on that score.
What about an Outward Bound kinda course? That'd be a little more structured and teach him some skills and give him that wilderness-manhood thing without requiring anything of him other than participation. They have short ones and, poking around the site, they have some that run like 50 days, so maybe one of the longer ones.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:41 PM on July 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
What about an Outward Bound kinda course? That'd be a little more structured and teach him some skills and give him that wilderness-manhood thing without requiring anything of him other than participation. They have short ones and, poking around the site, they have some that run like 50 days, so maybe one of the longer ones.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:41 PM on July 7, 2012 [2 favorites]
Forest/wildland firefighting out west? Paid, highly active (7000 calories/day!), service oriented - it has risks, of course, but my boss' son worked a handcrew one summer in college and it was a terrific experience for him. Unfortunately, the seasonal jobs usually have applications in Jan/Feb, so it wouldn't work immediately.
posted by clerestory at 11:42 PM on July 7, 2012 [12 favorites]
posted by clerestory at 11:42 PM on July 7, 2012 [12 favorites]
I'm afraid I doubt anything's going to change until either his money runs out or something very scary happens with his side business. When one of those two things happens, it's kind of you to have a plan ready--some option he'd be willing to accept rather than hit the streets or double down on the risk he's already taking, business-wise. But I don't think it's smart to send him abroad given the traits you've described. I mean, he'd probably be fine, but I'm not sure I see the advantage of putting him far out of reach and into circumstances you don't know well yourself when you're precisely trying to figure out how you can help him with really concrete, basic life skills problems. Perhaps Americorps would work. Or maybe you're willing to be a safety net for a while in trade for him taking up school again or volunteering somewhere he might learn a skill.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 11:48 PM on July 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by Monsieur Caution at 11:48 PM on July 7, 2012 [3 favorites]
If the standard military is not an option, how about the Coast Guard?
posted by chiefthe at 11:49 PM on July 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by chiefthe at 11:49 PM on July 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
I had friends for awhile who had been missionaries in the developing world--the sort who spent a lot of time building schools, getting drinkable water to people, etc. Very good people. One of them expressed an absolute horror, at one point, for the fact that they had to periodically take on people's irresponsible young adult kids for "volunteer trips" because such things were basically what ensured their continuing funding. Irresponsible people who ignore things like drug laws, etc, do NOT DO WELL in situations with minimal supervision, and heavy supervision essentially means that the organization must dedicate people to supervising the "volunteers", who have minimal real skills, instead of actually being able to make real progress on their projects.
And worst case scenario, a lot of countries have legal systems which are much less hospitable to drug dealers, etc, than ours are. I would be very, very hesitant to send a kid like this off somewhere. America's drug laws may be kind of crazy, but Malaysia, for example, has executed people for trafficking cannabis. But really, the trouble with this sort of thing in general is that very few organizations can provide that much guidance without the "volunteer" being a drain on the organization--and therefore, charging for the experience and having the sort of structure that it sounds like he'd hate anyway. The sort of people who do well in that kind of work are the ones who're drawn to it themselves.
posted by gracedissolved at 11:58 PM on July 7, 2012 [38 favorites]
And worst case scenario, a lot of countries have legal systems which are much less hospitable to drug dealers, etc, than ours are. I would be very, very hesitant to send a kid like this off somewhere. America's drug laws may be kind of crazy, but Malaysia, for example, has executed people for trafficking cannabis. But really, the trouble with this sort of thing in general is that very few organizations can provide that much guidance without the "volunteer" being a drain on the organization--and therefore, charging for the experience and having the sort of structure that it sounds like he'd hate anyway. The sort of people who do well in that kind of work are the ones who're drawn to it themselves.
posted by gracedissolved at 11:58 PM on July 7, 2012 [38 favorites]
OK. I'll take a crack at this. My husband is a Scorpio, the first one I've ever really know. Man! Are they hard to influence:))
Also. You are not going to like what I have to say. I want you to know I am big on politics, a refugee of NYC after that shitty thing happened there 11 years ago, and I am well against charities because they're pretty much all scams, especially the one you mentioned. I've read pretty crazy awful stuff about that organization, FWIW. But that is perhaps for another discussion...
I have a 15 month old son, and that informs 100% of my answer here.
"In many ways, I think my son is an anachronism, born in the wrong time and place. If he lived in a world where he had to hunt for his food, protect his family from marauding tribes, or even stand up against true oppression, he'd be the leader. I tell him he's the person I’d want next to me in a post-Apocalyptic world. As it is, he's angry and confused and can't figure out how to live in the world."
Emphasis mine.
Look. In this day and age, and at his age without some wisdom behind me - I'd be high and dropping out, too. The media propaganda, and the reality on the ground, is ALL about how we, en mass, are, and should accept, that we are all slaves subject to more powerful forces. This is actually bullshit.
I know you mean well, but telling him about a post-apocalyptic world (which popular culture is totally promoting at this point - don't get me started!) is exactly the WRONG MESSAGE.
You are thinking outside the box - just not far enough!
- Skip trying to influence your adult son directly. This won't work.
- Can you afford to let him finish his degree? Do this.
- If the substance abuse is too much a factor, Google Kratom, but here is a reputable source for information. It is a natural herb very effective for countering addiction.
- Stop focusing on the negative outside and inside. Really.
----
I could go on and on and on. The forestry option someone mentioned above sounds AWESOME.
But really. Just change your outlook. Don't suggest options (like underpaid positions for charities that are rolling in $$) which will unintentionally foster the bleak outlook his generation has been taught to accept as their future.
That way leads madness for us all.
PS - I recommend no military. Memail if you want more on that.
posted by jbenben at 11:58 PM on July 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
Also. You are not going to like what I have to say. I want you to know I am big on politics, a refugee of NYC after that shitty thing happened there 11 years ago, and I am well against charities because they're pretty much all scams, especially the one you mentioned. I've read pretty crazy awful stuff about that organization, FWIW. But that is perhaps for another discussion...
I have a 15 month old son, and that informs 100% of my answer here.
"In many ways, I think my son is an anachronism, born in the wrong time and place. If he lived in a world where he had to hunt for his food, protect his family from marauding tribes, or even stand up against true oppression, he'd be the leader. I tell him he's the person I’d want next to me in a post-Apocalyptic world. As it is, he's angry and confused and can't figure out how to live in the world."
Emphasis mine.
Look. In this day and age, and at his age without some wisdom behind me - I'd be high and dropping out, too. The media propaganda, and the reality on the ground, is ALL about how we, en mass, are, and should accept, that we are all slaves subject to more powerful forces. This is actually bullshit.
I know you mean well, but telling him about a post-apocalyptic world (which popular culture is totally promoting at this point - don't get me started!) is exactly the WRONG MESSAGE.
You are thinking outside the box - just not far enough!
- Skip trying to influence your adult son directly. This won't work.
- Can you afford to let him finish his degree? Do this.
- If the substance abuse is too much a factor, Google Kratom, but here is a reputable source for information. It is a natural herb very effective for countering addiction.
- Stop focusing on the negative outside and inside. Really.
----
I could go on and on and on. The forestry option someone mentioned above sounds AWESOME.
But really. Just change your outlook. Don't suggest options (like underpaid positions for charities that are rolling in $$) which will unintentionally foster the bleak outlook his generation has been taught to accept as their future.
That way leads madness for us all.
PS - I recommend no military. Memail if you want more on that.
posted by jbenben at 11:58 PM on July 7, 2012 [5 favorites]
There are a lot of self-constructed barriers your son has put in place that rule out almost every option. For example, won't go to therapy, won't participate in an existing volunteer structure, doesn't have a legitimate job, doesn't want to learn from others, etc. It really makes it hard to come up with suggestions, and the answer might be that he needs to flounder and figure this out on his own. He will need to bend on some of these ideas eventually, but that could take quite some time. As much as I hate to say it, I think this leads to the "tough love" approach you mentioned.
That said, before I reached the conclusion of your question, my first thought was Habitat for Humanity, since it can be a commitment of a short or long duration and providing housing for a family in need would be immensely gratifying. My second thought, is that, yeah, he is going to need to suck it up and get a legitimate job eventually. He's 22, and as much as you want to guide him towards a happy, healthy future, this one is on him. Be supportive, give advice when needed, but it sounds like your son needs to make his own way in the world, with all the ups and downs that entails. It's hard to be a parent and watch that happen, but he seems determined to shoot down almost every idea and refuse any help, so it might be what's necessary. It's clear you are a loving parent invested in your child's future, and that counts for a lot. It just may take a while to see how exactly that will manifest. Best of luck to you both!
posted by katemcd at 12:11 AM on July 8, 2012 [8 favorites]
That said, before I reached the conclusion of your question, my first thought was Habitat for Humanity, since it can be a commitment of a short or long duration and providing housing for a family in need would be immensely gratifying. My second thought, is that, yeah, he is going to need to suck it up and get a legitimate job eventually. He's 22, and as much as you want to guide him towards a happy, healthy future, this one is on him. Be supportive, give advice when needed, but it sounds like your son needs to make his own way in the world, with all the ups and downs that entails. It's hard to be a parent and watch that happen, but he seems determined to shoot down almost every idea and refuse any help, so it might be what's necessary. It's clear you are a loving parent invested in your child's future, and that counts for a lot. It just may take a while to see how exactly that will manifest. Best of luck to you both!
posted by katemcd at 12:11 AM on July 8, 2012 [8 favorites]
Why not move to a medical marijuana state and get a legit job growing pot? It's detail-oriented hard work that helps sick people and lessens his potential legal worries. Plus he won't be working for The Man, man.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:24 AM on July 8, 2012 [12 favorites]
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:24 AM on July 8, 2012 [12 favorites]
I mean this gently, but I think your focus on how special and remarkable he is may be misplaced. If he is going to run out of money, he is going to need a job, no matter how sensitive he is or how great a musician he is or how wonderful he'd be post-Apocalypse. May I suggest you attend Al-Anon to learn about how to deal with a loved one with substance abuse issues? Frankly, it sounds like you are enabling him.
posted by Wordwoman at 1:02 AM on July 8, 2012 [52 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 1:02 AM on July 8, 2012 [52 favorites]
they say artisanal butchery is making a big comeback. maybe he could be an independent-minded hipster butcher in brooklyn, there's a lot going on.
he could go help reconstruct haiti, or new orleans.
he could apprentice himself to a tool-maker, or musical-instrument-maker, or carpenter, or learn how to build high-end bicycle frames, or tune/customize motorcycles. there are a ton of great creative hands-on businesses out there. also, he could apprentice himself out to an audio production company - a great start for a not-quite-committed musician.
posted by facetious at 1:04 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
he could go help reconstruct haiti, or new orleans.
he could apprentice himself to a tool-maker, or musical-instrument-maker, or carpenter, or learn how to build high-end bicycle frames, or tune/customize motorcycles. there are a ton of great creative hands-on businesses out there. also, he could apprentice himself out to an audio production company - a great start for a not-quite-committed musician.
posted by facetious at 1:04 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
This is your son. He needs to figure out what he needs on his own. Really. What you are doing is NOT HELPFUL to him. Seriously, Dad. Not. helpful. If you did this to me at 22 years old, I would never speak to you again. STOP!
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:12 AM on July 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:12 AM on July 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
There are a million opportunities for him to volunteer on a useful project, dozens exist in your town right now I'm sure. If he was interested in doing something like this he'd be doing it already. Instead he's coasting along, getting high, making a living through crime and making excuses for it. Probably the most useful thing you can do is be honest with both him and yourself and stop validating all his excuses. I mean this in the nicest possible way but he's not special, he's a unskilled, unemployed, uneducated grown man. He needs to sink or swim, financially, and you need to let him. You can, of course, continue to provide love, encouragement and fatherly advice but a serious fatherly reality check wouldn't go amiss.
posted by fshgrl at 1:44 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 1:44 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
In a post-apocalypse, I'd want someone by my side who is responsible, has a healthy idea of risk vs gain, and most of all: a plan how to get through that mess. Your son does not sound like that person. He isn't even responsible for himself - he counts on you to be his safety net once shit its the fan and he runs out of money.
Not wanting to go back to school, not wanting a job except selling weed (which counts as a drug-related crime, not really a job, btw), not dealing well with authorities and not wanting to make a career of his music doesn't leave so terribly many options. Basically, "can't work with authorities" narrows it down to freelancing or being his own boss, and for that to work, he needs discipline he clearly doesn't have at all and a field he is skilled, interested and permanently educating himself in.
You glorify your son, and I guess no-one can blame you; it's something many parents do. But it is not realistic to excuse his lack of ambition and goals as "he has a gentle heart and needs to be free and manly, like a stone age hunter providing for his tribe".
Frankly, the only real solution I see is "tough love", as in "military". He may not like it, he may never like strict rules and authorities. But he can learn to deal with it and use the experience to do something that is a better fit for his personality later. See it as a crash course in the neccessary evil. But sending him to another country, to an enviroment where he can "experience these qualities as strengths", won't work if there is no authority to turn any of his qualities into strengths. Sending him to some other country may only make him think "ah, no parents watching, they shut up about school and work, - I'm free to continue my life as it was before".
posted by MinusCelsius at 2:15 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Not wanting to go back to school, not wanting a job except selling weed (which counts as a drug-related crime, not really a job, btw), not dealing well with authorities and not wanting to make a career of his music doesn't leave so terribly many options. Basically, "can't work with authorities" narrows it down to freelancing or being his own boss, and for that to work, he needs discipline he clearly doesn't have at all and a field he is skilled, interested and permanently educating himself in.
You glorify your son, and I guess no-one can blame you; it's something many parents do. But it is not realistic to excuse his lack of ambition and goals as "he has a gentle heart and needs to be free and manly, like a stone age hunter providing for his tribe".
Frankly, the only real solution I see is "tough love", as in "military". He may not like it, he may never like strict rules and authorities. But he can learn to deal with it and use the experience to do something that is a better fit for his personality later. See it as a crash course in the neccessary evil. But sending him to another country, to an enviroment where he can "experience these qualities as strengths", won't work if there is no authority to turn any of his qualities into strengths. Sending him to some other country may only make him think "ah, no parents watching, they shut up about school and work, - I'm free to continue my life as it was before".
posted by MinusCelsius at 2:15 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Kudos for you in trying to be the best parent you can, and trying to frame the many issues with your son in the most positive, loving light you can. Lots of people struggle to do this.
However... There are not a tonne of volunteering opportunities for high school drop outs, with no work history, who won't follow orders and won't volunteer with the "do-gooders". There are people with masters degrees and years of experience offering to volunteer; that's the competition your son is facing, and I think - from as much a place of love as it comes from - your belief and statements about what a great person your son is and how special he is, and his smarts etc, I think are enabling the mentality in him that he's great and life will start whenever he's ready.
Whilst those attitudes you evince are great in a parent, an employer or overseer will see a deadbeat, high school drop-out stoner, with no work ethic, no experience, no commitment, and no desire to follow through.
I think it's important to recognise as parent that there are limits to how far either the positive, or the negative attitude can take in regards to kids. You just can't bring em over the line on some things; they have to get there themselves.
I think you're comment about the firefighting being dangerous is quite revealing in some ways. You let your son live rent-free in your apartment, drop out of high-school, drop out of community college, and deal drugs with few repercussions. I think you need to reframe in your head a little: What your son is doing now is dangerous. The dealing aspect is probably far more dangerous than fire-fighting, but my broader point is that I think you may have subconsciously adopted some of your son's mentality that what he's doing right now is fine, and if and when he chooses to pick up, it will be fine then too.
It's fine for some people but not everybody gets to write The Pursuit of Happyness. Most people a) do not pick up, b) when they do, they are decades behind, dulled by drugs, with the kind of non-skills that are only worthwhile in twenty year olds, but they're forty. By choosing to do nothing he is doing something destructive with his life and prospects.
Sorry, I'm sure you're aware of this, and I don't want to provide you with anymore nightmare full.
Your son doesn't sound like an anachronism, he sounds like a typical middle-class twenty year old boy who thinks he knows everything there is to know in the world, but doesn't know shit-all about anything, and when and if he discovers that fact it will getting late in the game to do something about it. Take comfort that parents have been grappling with lazy know-it-all kids for centuries, at least.
In my opinion, the best cure for this is a stint of minimum wage work. The prospect of doing that for decades has scared a lot of people I went to school with straight after they fucked around for a bit. Because of his delusions of masculinity, fire-fighting seems like a go-er - it will pander to his ego without the authoritarian connotations of the army. The dealing is a problem. If it was Australia (where I am), I would probably get the cops involved, but American drug law is so insane I can understand why you would want to avoid that risk. I got nothing there. Good luck.
posted by smoke at 2:22 AM on July 8, 2012 [31 favorites]
However... There are not a tonne of volunteering opportunities for high school drop outs, with no work history, who won't follow orders and won't volunteer with the "do-gooders". There are people with masters degrees and years of experience offering to volunteer; that's the competition your son is facing, and I think - from as much a place of love as it comes from - your belief and statements about what a great person your son is and how special he is, and his smarts etc, I think are enabling the mentality in him that he's great and life will start whenever he's ready.
Whilst those attitudes you evince are great in a parent, an employer or overseer will see a deadbeat, high school drop-out stoner, with no work ethic, no experience, no commitment, and no desire to follow through.
I think it's important to recognise as parent that there are limits to how far either the positive, or the negative attitude can take in regards to kids. You just can't bring em over the line on some things; they have to get there themselves.
I think you're comment about the firefighting being dangerous is quite revealing in some ways. You let your son live rent-free in your apartment, drop out of high-school, drop out of community college, and deal drugs with few repercussions. I think you need to reframe in your head a little: What your son is doing now is dangerous. The dealing aspect is probably far more dangerous than fire-fighting, but my broader point is that I think you may have subconsciously adopted some of your son's mentality that what he's doing right now is fine, and if and when he chooses to pick up, it will be fine then too.
It's fine for some people but not everybody gets to write The Pursuit of Happyness. Most people a) do not pick up, b) when they do, they are decades behind, dulled by drugs, with the kind of non-skills that are only worthwhile in twenty year olds, but they're forty. By choosing to do nothing he is doing something destructive with his life and prospects.
Sorry, I'm sure you're aware of this, and I don't want to provide you with anymore nightmare full.
Your son doesn't sound like an anachronism, he sounds like a typical middle-class twenty year old boy who thinks he knows everything there is to know in the world, but doesn't know shit-all about anything, and when and if he discovers that fact it will getting late in the game to do something about it. Take comfort that parents have been grappling with lazy know-it-all kids for centuries, at least.
In my opinion, the best cure for this is a stint of minimum wage work. The prospect of doing that for decades has scared a lot of people I went to school with straight after they fucked around for a bit. Because of his delusions of masculinity, fire-fighting seems like a go-er - it will pander to his ego without the authoritarian connotations of the army. The dealing is a problem. If it was Australia (where I am), I would probably get the cops involved, but American drug law is so insane I can understand why you would want to avoid that risk. I got nothing there. Good luck.
posted by smoke at 2:22 AM on July 8, 2012 [31 favorites]
He needs a place to develop his traditionally male attributes,
I have no idea what you mean by this... are you saying you want him to be a "traditional" man (1950's - era) or are you just attributing ambition as a male attribute? If it's the first one - why would you want to do that, and if it's the second, ew.
In many ways, I think my son is an anachronism, born in the wrong time and place. If he lived in a world where he had to hunt for his food, protect his family from marauding tribes, or even stand up against true oppression, he'd be the leader. I tell him he's the person I’d want next to me in a post-Apocalyptic world.
Not to invalidate your feelings and parental pride, but there is nothing - absolutely nothing - in your post about his actual activities to support this. In a hunter-gatherer society you'd have to get up...and leave the hut, like, whoa, every day. You'd need to clean out the hut of carcasses or risk disease. Your kid can't do that in a "safe" area - what in the world makes you think he'd be good at doing that if there were predators roaming around? Is he going to protect his family...until he gets worried he's not doing a good enough job and drops them?
I'm not saying this to be snide, but you sound like you've got an avoidance of facing facts. You're a parent, and you care. You don't want to think your son is useless, or that something's "wrong" with him, so you come up with excuses. But the excuses don't help. So:
1. STOP making up imaginary scenarios where your son is suddenly awesome (at least, without recognizing they are imaginary scenarios) and just recognize your son for who he is.
2. Cut him off, if possible (where are his "savings" coming from?)
3. Therapy. Your son has anxiety issues. I know I said cut him off, but if you're willing to spend money on him, tell him you'll pay for therapy.
4. Take him camping, or on a week-long hike. Don't send him away.
5. Get involved with what he's into. A 22 year old is not going to take recommendations from a parent.
But bottom line is, he's an adult. He has to want to change. Be there for him, but don't pressure him. My brother is your son, and I fully believe he got that way through parental pressure.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 2:25 AM on July 8, 2012 [18 favorites]
I have no idea what you mean by this... are you saying you want him to be a "traditional" man (1950's - era) or are you just attributing ambition as a male attribute? If it's the first one - why would you want to do that, and if it's the second, ew.
In many ways, I think my son is an anachronism, born in the wrong time and place. If he lived in a world where he had to hunt for his food, protect his family from marauding tribes, or even stand up against true oppression, he'd be the leader. I tell him he's the person I’d want next to me in a post-Apocalyptic world.
Not to invalidate your feelings and parental pride, but there is nothing - absolutely nothing - in your post about his actual activities to support this. In a hunter-gatherer society you'd have to get up...and leave the hut, like, whoa, every day. You'd need to clean out the hut of carcasses or risk disease. Your kid can't do that in a "safe" area - what in the world makes you think he'd be good at doing that if there were predators roaming around? Is he going to protect his family...until he gets worried he's not doing a good enough job and drops them?
I'm not saying this to be snide, but you sound like you've got an avoidance of facing facts. You're a parent, and you care. You don't want to think your son is useless, or that something's "wrong" with him, so you come up with excuses. But the excuses don't help. So:
1. STOP making up imaginary scenarios where your son is suddenly awesome (at least, without recognizing they are imaginary scenarios) and just recognize your son for who he is.
2. Cut him off, if possible (where are his "savings" coming from?)
3. Therapy. Your son has anxiety issues. I know I said cut him off, but if you're willing to spend money on him, tell him you'll pay for therapy.
4. Take him camping, or on a week-long hike. Don't send him away.
5. Get involved with what he's into. A 22 year old is not going to take recommendations from a parent.
But bottom line is, he's an adult. He has to want to change. Be there for him, but don't pressure him. My brother is your son, and I fully believe he got that way through parental pressure.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 2:25 AM on July 8, 2012 [18 favorites]
People whose kids go to college gather information for them to help guide them to some extent. They help them choose colleges, for one thing. I don't see what I'm doing as all that different.
The difference is that parents tend to do that while their children are still minors, and the children request that help - unless it's a pushy parent, in which case it's not a good thing either. This is just rationalizing your behavior.
I'm trying to describe some of his positive aspects in hopes ideas may come along that connect with those aspects.
I think the problem is that the positive aspects blur so much with the negative aspects as to be indistinguishable. For example: he can't seem to gather the gumption and perhaps organization to really put a band together ....He's great at just jumping in and trying things, like new musical instruments, cooking, gardening, foraging for edible plants. The "positive" aspects really remind me of what I say about people that I barely know, or I know aren't that great, but I need to say something nice. You give pretty vague positives but many negative specifics, which then contradict your positives.
He is beginning to notice how he builds things up into paralyzing hurdles in his mind. Occasionally he lets on that he’s really unsure how to figure out what to do next in his life, how to move ahead.
Have you ever sat down and told him that almost everyone feels this way (everyone, feel free to correct me)? And that if he takes the wrong step today, he can always step back tomorrow, but it will be a step back with experience. If he simply refrains from stepping ahead, he will be in the same place as if he had to back-track, but without any experience.
I do believe we live in a world that is more difficult for certain types of people than for others, (more difficult for many types, of course, but in this case those commonly diagnosed with ADD/ADHD).
Everyone has problems. Period.
....okay, not period. This semester I had a failing student that complained about the grades she was getting. It's not fair, she said. She only knew English as a second language, and it put her at a huge disadvantage compared to all the other students, and that's why she was failing. The implication was that I should simply boost her grade because of her situation (she refused to attend the free English tutoring sessions). Considering the handful of other ESL students I had not only passed the class but ACED it shot pretty big holes in her story. And every semester it's a similar situation - a student complains their full-time job "made them" fail, but another student working a full time job and solely responsible for three kids does fine without a peep.
Everyone has problems. How we choose to deal with our problems is really what defines our character. Your son's problems seem to be mainly of his own making and he doesn't want to face them. You blaming the ADD and saying he's not meant for "this" world gives him an excuse to think that, too, and not work on his problems. It's not his fault he smokes weed all day! He should have been born centuries ago! ...No. It's his fault, and he needs to work on it or take the blame for his messes.
How did he get diagnosed with ADD if he won't go to a therapist?
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 2:54 AM on July 8, 2012 [10 favorites]
The difference is that parents tend to do that while their children are still minors, and the children request that help - unless it's a pushy parent, in which case it's not a good thing either. This is just rationalizing your behavior.
I'm trying to describe some of his positive aspects in hopes ideas may come along that connect with those aspects.
I think the problem is that the positive aspects blur so much with the negative aspects as to be indistinguishable. For example: he can't seem to gather the gumption and perhaps organization to really put a band together ....He's great at just jumping in and trying things, like new musical instruments, cooking, gardening, foraging for edible plants. The "positive" aspects really remind me of what I say about people that I barely know, or I know aren't that great, but I need to say something nice. You give pretty vague positives but many negative specifics, which then contradict your positives.
He is beginning to notice how he builds things up into paralyzing hurdles in his mind. Occasionally he lets on that he’s really unsure how to figure out what to do next in his life, how to move ahead.
Have you ever sat down and told him that almost everyone feels this way (everyone, feel free to correct me)? And that if he takes the wrong step today, he can always step back tomorrow, but it will be a step back with experience. If he simply refrains from stepping ahead, he will be in the same place as if he had to back-track, but without any experience.
I do believe we live in a world that is more difficult for certain types of people than for others, (more difficult for many types, of course, but in this case those commonly diagnosed with ADD/ADHD).
Everyone has problems. Period.
....okay, not period. This semester I had a failing student that complained about the grades she was getting. It's not fair, she said. She only knew English as a second language, and it put her at a huge disadvantage compared to all the other students, and that's why she was failing. The implication was that I should simply boost her grade because of her situation (she refused to attend the free English tutoring sessions). Considering the handful of other ESL students I had not only passed the class but ACED it shot pretty big holes in her story. And every semester it's a similar situation - a student complains their full-time job "made them" fail, but another student working a full time job and solely responsible for three kids does fine without a peep.
Everyone has problems. How we choose to deal with our problems is really what defines our character. Your son's problems seem to be mainly of his own making and he doesn't want to face them. You blaming the ADD and saying he's not meant for "this" world gives him an excuse to think that, too, and not work on his problems. It's not his fault he smokes weed all day! He should have been born centuries ago! ...No. It's his fault, and he needs to work on it or take the blame for his messes.
How did he get diagnosed with ADD if he won't go to a therapist?
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 2:54 AM on July 8, 2012 [10 favorites]
I see that you've already had a lot of tough love from other posters; I wanted to give you a little perspective from someone who grew up with parents who sound similar to you. My parents are absolutely lovely in many ways, but I believe they chose to show their love by providing opportunities rather than pushing my siblings and I, and still continue to do so, even though all three of us are well into adulthood.
My older sister is the most naturally disciplined and motivated, and that has allowed her to create her own success in a very healthy way. I was less motivated, and was never made to get a job until I had to do college internships; I definitely felt that I lagged behind my peers when it came to a lot of crucial life skills, because my parents were always prepared to be there as a buffer if things didn't work out. My younger brother is at the other end of the spectrum: he is still living at home at 25, with totally unrealistic plans for his life, no friends as a result of a lack of social skills, and my parents have just given him money to buy a house (I think, in many ways, to get him out of theirs). Conversations that I've had with him indicate that he doesn't understand the responsibility associated with home ownership, and he has a whack load of entitlement issues. Conversations with my parents indicate that they have similar ideas about him to the ones you've expressed about your son - he's sensitive, he just needs to find the right job/friends/girl/etc. They have only an inkling of how much they've enabled him to the point he's at.
My suggestion: stop giving him money. If you must pay for something, make it therapy. The kind of help you're envisioning will not, I wager, create the person you think your son can become. He will have to realise his own potential, and part of that will involve gaining economic independence. Resist the urge to save him - he needs to figure this stuff out on his own.
posted by catch as catch can at 2:57 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
My older sister is the most naturally disciplined and motivated, and that has allowed her to create her own success in a very healthy way. I was less motivated, and was never made to get a job until I had to do college internships; I definitely felt that I lagged behind my peers when it came to a lot of crucial life skills, because my parents were always prepared to be there as a buffer if things didn't work out. My younger brother is at the other end of the spectrum: he is still living at home at 25, with totally unrealistic plans for his life, no friends as a result of a lack of social skills, and my parents have just given him money to buy a house (I think, in many ways, to get him out of theirs). Conversations that I've had with him indicate that he doesn't understand the responsibility associated with home ownership, and he has a whack load of entitlement issues. Conversations with my parents indicate that they have similar ideas about him to the ones you've expressed about your son - he's sensitive, he just needs to find the right job/friends/girl/etc. They have only an inkling of how much they've enabled him to the point he's at.
My suggestion: stop giving him money. If you must pay for something, make it therapy. The kind of help you're envisioning will not, I wager, create the person you think your son can become. He will have to realise his own potential, and part of that will involve gaining economic independence. Resist the urge to save him - he needs to figure this stuff out on his own.
posted by catch as catch can at 2:57 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
i just want to pop in for a sec and do some depathologizing if possible. 22's a bit old for this phase, but it's not 44. alanon & the rest are (in my opinion) useful for managing the emotional problems of the relatives of addicts. i'm not seeing emotional problems, and I'm not seeing a drug addict. concerned and caring drug addicts forget that there are a huge number of people who use substances wihtout being addicts, and just generally not getting his shit together is not the addict's smoking gun. i think this person is trying sincerely and in an unsick way trying to light a fire under their kid's butt. it's not guaranteed that they don't have a good enough relationship that this actually makes sense and might be a positive contribution. there are many many situations where cutting someone off or refusing to bail them out of self-created trouble, etc., is the best answer. but it's by no stretch of the imagination the only answer to maturation and motivation issues, even in the presence of some weed-smoking. at the very, very least this is a parent mentally preparing for that time junior wants to have a discussion about his future. personally, rather than believing that parents shouldn't try to help their kids in these situations and that this is automatically co-dependent, I think parents are ideally situated to provide (gentle) guidance and support.
posted by facetious at 2:58 AM on July 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by facetious at 2:58 AM on July 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
I see it as a positive if parents provide a little guidance well into adulthood - we have enough studies that show socio-economic background has a huge influence on life attainment - and that comes down to information as much as finances.
It does not sound as if you force or nag him to get his life together, but you provide a dialogue and support. Some kids need more help than others and that is perfectly fine. Show him as many possibilities as you can, it might be that he does not recognize things the way others do.
I think travel and volunteering can bring one out of a rut - and frankly it sounds a little like your son has been in a rut for some time. As in 'nothing is great, but nothing is bad enough to actually get up and do something meaningful'.
My first idea was to send him to someone you know for an internship - maybe someone who runs a landscaping business or builds a house or has a farm. He could work there for room and board for a couple months and maybe it would give him some perspective. If you think your cannabis growing friends are a good fit, go for that. However, and pardon me for overgeneralizations, you don't want to send him from one coasting experience into the next and among other people who lack inspiration.
This has been my personal experience with woofing - while it was a great time overall, it was not structured at all. I had hosts who had no idea themselves what work would be necessary or suitable and simply enjoyed having company. They needed shopping assistants, childcare providers, cleaners, cooks and just having someone around and not the ‘gardeners’ they were looking for on woof. Like I said, it was fun vacations but not work (for me - I know there are placings that are very strict and people work long hours in the actual garden/farm).
Do you have a clear idea about what you want him to learn? In life skills that is. A few internships could introduce him to different kinds of trades/jobs and give him some experience in a short time. What did he do in college, why did he stop one class short? Would he want to go back to it? Maybe there are jobs that relate to that field, which he is not aware of yet but could see himself working in?
I am not sure if this sounds odd, but how about you make it a quest for him - like a scavenger hunt - he has to complete courses/internships/challenges and gets a reward and goes on to the next point. Along the way he would gain life experience, maybe some certificates, maybe travel experience or learn a language, and hopefully it would give him a kick in the right direction. Once you are moving it becomes easier, you know. Can you make some sort of deal with him - if he completes this quest his reward is moving back in into the rent-free apartment for a year (and hopefully by the time he completes the quest he has enough ideas about his future that he does not even want to move in there! ). Learning by doing seems to be the way to go. Mix fun things with structured education/courses/things he has to force himself to doing etc.
Sometimes our ideals hinder us to achieve the things we actually want. Being too messy to find a roommate could mean being too messy to find a girlfriend. Dwelling on the inner meaning of things can mean not realizing how the simple things in life work. Not liking structures (like shelters/volunteering with do-gooders) can mean running great detours to avoid structures = wasting time/energy etc. sometimes it is tough to learn those lessons and leave our ideals, ideas and believes behind. It hurts to be proven wrong – but in the long run it might be beneficial.
I have no experience with it, but heplx.net is another option to woofing - there are many hosts (USA and worldwide) that look for physical help. Maybe you could find someone who has some real skills to teach that your son could develop into a career. (I love the forest firefighter idea and can picture someone like your son working in a national park in landscaping, as a park ranger or as a wildlife conservation officer. He would need to pick up some more traditional education along the way but would have a work environment that might suit his personality.)
To conclude, I want to add one more thing. Parents have to accept the choices of their kids at some point and realize that there are many ways on the spectrum of normal. We all grow up, fail, succeed, love, hate, learn and then we try to pass on the very best things we learned, forgetting that it is only half of the story.
posted by travelwithcats at 3:10 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
It does not sound as if you force or nag him to get his life together, but you provide a dialogue and support. Some kids need more help than others and that is perfectly fine. Show him as many possibilities as you can, it might be that he does not recognize things the way others do.
I think travel and volunteering can bring one out of a rut - and frankly it sounds a little like your son has been in a rut for some time. As in 'nothing is great, but nothing is bad enough to actually get up and do something meaningful'.
My first idea was to send him to someone you know for an internship - maybe someone who runs a landscaping business or builds a house or has a farm. He could work there for room and board for a couple months and maybe it would give him some perspective. If you think your cannabis growing friends are a good fit, go for that. However, and pardon me for overgeneralizations, you don't want to send him from one coasting experience into the next and among other people who lack inspiration.
This has been my personal experience with woofing - while it was a great time overall, it was not structured at all. I had hosts who had no idea themselves what work would be necessary or suitable and simply enjoyed having company. They needed shopping assistants, childcare providers, cleaners, cooks and just having someone around and not the ‘gardeners’ they were looking for on woof. Like I said, it was fun vacations but not work (for me - I know there are placings that are very strict and people work long hours in the actual garden/farm).
Do you have a clear idea about what you want him to learn? In life skills that is. A few internships could introduce him to different kinds of trades/jobs and give him some experience in a short time. What did he do in college, why did he stop one class short? Would he want to go back to it? Maybe there are jobs that relate to that field, which he is not aware of yet but could see himself working in?
I am not sure if this sounds odd, but how about you make it a quest for him - like a scavenger hunt - he has to complete courses/internships/challenges and gets a reward and goes on to the next point. Along the way he would gain life experience, maybe some certificates, maybe travel experience or learn a language, and hopefully it would give him a kick in the right direction. Once you are moving it becomes easier, you know. Can you make some sort of deal with him - if he completes this quest his reward is moving back in into the rent-free apartment for a year (and hopefully by the time he completes the quest he has enough ideas about his future that he does not even want to move in there! ). Learning by doing seems to be the way to go. Mix fun things with structured education/courses/things he has to force himself to doing etc.
Sometimes our ideals hinder us to achieve the things we actually want. Being too messy to find a roommate could mean being too messy to find a girlfriend. Dwelling on the inner meaning of things can mean not realizing how the simple things in life work. Not liking structures (like shelters/volunteering with do-gooders) can mean running great detours to avoid structures = wasting time/energy etc. sometimes it is tough to learn those lessons and leave our ideals, ideas and believes behind. It hurts to be proven wrong – but in the long run it might be beneficial.
I have no experience with it, but heplx.net is another option to woofing - there are many hosts (USA and worldwide) that look for physical help. Maybe you could find someone who has some real skills to teach that your son could develop into a career. (I love the forest firefighter idea and can picture someone like your son working in a national park in landscaping, as a park ranger or as a wildlife conservation officer. He would need to pick up some more traditional education along the way but would have a work environment that might suit his personality.)
To conclude, I want to add one more thing. Parents have to accept the choices of their kids at some point and realize that there are many ways on the spectrum of normal. We all grow up, fail, succeed, love, hate, learn and then we try to pass on the very best things we learned, forgetting that it is only half of the story.
posted by travelwithcats at 3:10 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've read the thread, and while much of what many say applies to the volunteering issue, I still like the idea of sending him off to a developing country or where poverty is obvious, for a different perspective on life, his privileges and his opportunities. Would you be willing to send him to India or some such (or go with him as you said, then leave him there) for 6 months or so? Even if he ends up partying in Goa or something, the sheer difference in infrastructure, quality of life and challenges maybe a certain kind of wake up call. Memail me if this captures your interest, I have a friend who might be able to provide a location in a rural area for him to "hang out" and maybe, make himself useful.
posted by infini at 3:21 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 3:21 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry, but since he's 22, I have to agree with the folks suggesting you pull back completely & let him either crash & burn or succeed entirely on his own. Which isn't to say drop everything about him and never talk to him again: just no more money, don't subsidise him in any way, and even cut out all advice unless he specifically asks you something. No cash, no rent/utilities help, no car payments or car insurance, no bags of groceries, nothing.
I know it hurts to watch him stumble so much, but it's his life, and HE has to take responsibility for it.
posted by easily confused at 3:24 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
I know it hurts to watch him stumble so much, but it's his life, and HE has to take responsibility for it.
posted by easily confused at 3:24 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
What about being a WWOOFer? They have a domestic program (as well as an international one) that's free. Participants work on an organic farm (usually a small, family owned one) and learn the tricks of the trade. They typically receive room and board and a small stipend. There are plenty of placements where he could learn butchering skills as well.
Other options could be seasonal deep sea fishing or crewing on a large sailboat. I make these suggestions because a) he likes the "old way" of doing things and b) it's awfully hard to indulge one's pot habit in the middle of the ocean.
All that said, there's nothing wrong with sharing ideas with your son, but it is somewhat problematic that you're the one seeking answers.
If I were you, I'd collate some ideas, drop them off at his place, let him know that you're willing to fund travel/education/volunteerism and leave it at that. Pay attention to him, of course, and look for areas of shared interest, but he ultimately needs to find his own answers.
I might also point him in the direction of this thread. He might bristle at the idea of your posting about him (even if it is essentially anonymous) but a bit of no bullshit feedback might be good for him. He definitely needs to get outside of his head and wake up to the world around him.
posted by GnomeChompsky at 3:54 AM on July 8, 2012
Other options could be seasonal deep sea fishing or crewing on a large sailboat. I make these suggestions because a) he likes the "old way" of doing things and b) it's awfully hard to indulge one's pot habit in the middle of the ocean.
All that said, there's nothing wrong with sharing ideas with your son, but it is somewhat problematic that you're the one seeking answers.
If I were you, I'd collate some ideas, drop them off at his place, let him know that you're willing to fund travel/education/volunteerism and leave it at that. Pay attention to him, of course, and look for areas of shared interest, but he ultimately needs to find his own answers.
I might also point him in the direction of this thread. He might bristle at the idea of your posting about him (even if it is essentially anonymous) but a bit of no bullshit feedback might be good for him. He definitely needs to get outside of his head and wake up to the world around him.
posted by GnomeChompsky at 3:54 AM on July 8, 2012
Casual, illegal pot distribution usually turns ugly about the time his supplier gets busted. He will either get entangled when that happens, or the people who were supplying the supplier will come to him to set up the new distribution system. He doesn't want to be either of those. As benign as marijuana seems to be, there are people one or two levels above him in the chain who treat it as something else entirely. If he's busted, there will be a lot of pressure from the police to name names to avoid prosecution. He loses either way. I don't think that prison is the "place to develop his traditionally male attributes, where he can prove himself on a serious playing field" you're looking for, but it's a real possibility.
You can rule out the military - today's enlistment standards mean he won't make it past the recruiter, much less a hair test for THC. If he did get in, his qualifications and lack of respect for authority mean that he will be designated cannon-fodder. Not a good solution.
I have two friends whose sons are smoke jumpers. It's scary as hell. They both love it. Every time there's a wildfire somewhere, I know that either Seth or Will (or both) has boots on the ground, and I worry about them until I hear that there were no casualties. Their dads say they celebrate the pride moments and try to turn off the screaming panic voices in their heads. They are no different from friends who have sons in Afghanistan.
Having been raised by a Scorpio, I can think up (more like remember) countless devious ways to motivate a "derelict" son, most of which would now be quantified as child abuse. Except we're talking about a 22 year old, so maybe they don't apply.
I think I would play to his strength; tell him you've sponsored him to a big league (read: drug free) poker tournament, and see how he fares. He will either rise to the challenge, or be sent home with his head on a plate. Either way, an education from the "big boys."
posted by halfbuckaroo at 3:59 AM on July 8, 2012
You can rule out the military - today's enlistment standards mean he won't make it past the recruiter, much less a hair test for THC. If he did get in, his qualifications and lack of respect for authority mean that he will be designated cannon-fodder. Not a good solution.
I have two friends whose sons are smoke jumpers. It's scary as hell. They both love it. Every time there's a wildfire somewhere, I know that either Seth or Will (or both) has boots on the ground, and I worry about them until I hear that there were no casualties. Their dads say they celebrate the pride moments and try to turn off the screaming panic voices in their heads. They are no different from friends who have sons in Afghanistan.
Having been raised by a Scorpio, I can think up (more like remember) countless devious ways to motivate a "derelict" son, most of which would now be quantified as child abuse. Except we're talking about a 22 year old, so maybe they don't apply.
I think I would play to his strength; tell him you've sponsored him to a big league (read: drug free) poker tournament, and see how he fares. He will either rise to the challenge, or be sent home with his head on a plate. Either way, an education from the "big boys."
posted by halfbuckaroo at 3:59 AM on July 8, 2012
His current lifestyle is not going to make him a good volunteer nor acceptable in programs in countries where volunteers are needed. Maybe a program like this one to volunteer short term building houses for the very poor in Guatemala would give him a taste of what that was like. I think this is a better option for him to do on his own than you going to somewhere like India with him and leaving him there.
http://www.fromhousestohomes.org/
But he would have to give up his stoner lifestyle, work hard with others, take orders, and deal with a structure and definite goal. Just wanting to vaguely "do good" or "help the world" is not enough especially for someone who at this point has no useful skills he is willing to work at developing.
I'm a mom, one of my kids has had some problems finding a real niche in life, so I know how you feel, but you can't fix it. He has to want to do something with his life himself. He is still very young, maybe going back to school to learn something that gives him skills that would make him a useful volunteer in other countries is not the worst thing he could do, like something in the medical field, paramedic, nurse, medical tech etc. or a trade like carpenter or plumber. Right here in the USA Habitat for Humanity needs volunteers to do construction work, that may be a place to start as well.
posted by mermayd at 4:02 AM on July 8, 2012
http://www.fromhousestohomes.org/
But he would have to give up his stoner lifestyle, work hard with others, take orders, and deal with a structure and definite goal. Just wanting to vaguely "do good" or "help the world" is not enough especially for someone who at this point has no useful skills he is willing to work at developing.
I'm a mom, one of my kids has had some problems finding a real niche in life, so I know how you feel, but you can't fix it. He has to want to do something with his life himself. He is still very young, maybe going back to school to learn something that gives him skills that would make him a useful volunteer in other countries is not the worst thing he could do, like something in the medical field, paramedic, nurse, medical tech etc. or a trade like carpenter or plumber. Right here in the USA Habitat for Humanity needs volunteers to do construction work, that may be a place to start as well.
posted by mermayd at 4:02 AM on July 8, 2012
Peace Corps. He needs to put an application in NOW though.
posted by DisreputableDog at 4:43 AM on July 8, 2012
posted by DisreputableDog at 4:43 AM on July 8, 2012
Yeah,there is pretty much NO volunteering opportunity that is just going to plunk him somewhere and let him do his own thing without training or supervision, especially if he's expecting them to pay for his meals and accommodation. It is necessary for volunteers to work together as a team, to take orders and to accept training. They also need to accept that sometimes things need to be done in a certain order, that certain protocols have to be followed, or you may do more harm than good. It doesn't sound like he's that type at all. The desire to do good is not enough. You also need tenacity, and cooperation, and humility enough to realise you don't necessarily know everything. (And indeed, being talented is not enough, and being smart is not enough, and loving to try new things isn't enough... you need hard work as well or none of those things have meaning)
Going backpacking for six months, especially somewhere that really is a stark contrast to his life now, might actually change his outlook and give him the dose of reality it sounds like he needs, but you'd have to be sure he was drug free because of the extremely stiff no-nonsense penalties for drug use or trafficking in many countries. It sounds to me as if he needs to get right away from his hometown and his drug dealership and his buddies and his family. Even if he needs to get a crappy job waiting tables or washing dishes. If he really has the talent and the intelligence, and he's taken out of his comfort zone, he will find a way to make those things mean something.
posted by andraste at 5:04 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Going backpacking for six months, especially somewhere that really is a stark contrast to his life now, might actually change his outlook and give him the dose of reality it sounds like he needs, but you'd have to be sure he was drug free because of the extremely stiff no-nonsense penalties for drug use or trafficking in many countries. It sounds to me as if he needs to get right away from his hometown and his drug dealership and his buddies and his family. Even if he needs to get a crappy job waiting tables or washing dishes. If he really has the talent and the intelligence, and he's taken out of his comfort zone, he will find a way to make those things mean something.
posted by andraste at 5:04 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your son sounds a lot like a member of my family, including the drug issues and ADD. After floundering for 10-15 years (and living with his parents until he got married at 30 or so), my relative is now a paramedic. He's been doing it for about 15 years and seems to be thriving.
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:06 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by MexicanYenta at 5:06 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Are you sure he has ADD? Has he ever been officially diagnosed? I don't see anything here that seems to stem from that. It feels to me like maybe you might be searching for find some external reasons for his behavior.
posted by wolfdreams01 at 5:17 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by wolfdreams01 at 5:17 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I understand your frustration as a parent and your desire to get him going. Some people can be heavy drug users and function in society, others can't. He sounds like the latter and all the "could be's" and "should be's" don't matter. He's a stoner and can't even keep a job or clean his apartment. But he can find the time and motivation to get his weed. Forget the military or any quasi military situations, with his drug problem and attitude there's no way he would be accepted.
Where does he get his "savings" from? Can he be cut off? Is he on your cell phone plan? Drop him. Who pays for his car, his car insurance? If its you, cut him off. Eventually he will have to sink or swim on his own. If he's earning enough money to totally support himself by selling pot, I hope that doesn't end badly.
2nding you going to Al Anon for yourself. If he doesn't want to see a therapist because he thinks they shouldn't get paid (total BS btw) then he should go to AA or Narcotics Anon or a similar free program. Dude is 22, I know its frustrating but he's got to figure it out himself...or not.
Good luck.
posted by mikedelic at 5:32 AM on July 8, 2012
Where does he get his "savings" from? Can he be cut off? Is he on your cell phone plan? Drop him. Who pays for his car, his car insurance? If its you, cut him off. Eventually he will have to sink or swim on his own. If he's earning enough money to totally support himself by selling pot, I hope that doesn't end badly.
2nding you going to Al Anon for yourself. If he doesn't want to see a therapist because he thinks they shouldn't get paid (total BS btw) then he should go to AA or Narcotics Anon or a similar free program. Dude is 22, I know its frustrating but he's got to figure it out himself...or not.
Good luck.
posted by mikedelic at 5:32 AM on July 8, 2012
Tree planting might be a good way for him to spend his time.
posted by ambrosen at 5:34 AM on July 8, 2012
posted by ambrosen at 5:34 AM on July 8, 2012
Sending him off to a developing country to do the sort of labor that a strong young man would be suited for might be helpful to him, but it would be selfish - most developing countries are full of strong young men who have the capacity to do the jobs that volunteer organizations and missionaries do - dig wells, build schools - just not the funds. And I respectfully disagree with some above posters that you should send him to another country to do some growing up. Other countries don't exist to be backgrounds and impetus for Americans' life lessons.
There are places in America that are still rebuilding from disasters and actively seeking Habitat for Humanity volunteers. What about something like the Student Conservation Association's conservation internships (things like long-term trail maintenance, wilderness rescue, and work in national parks)? What about Americorps?
posted by ChuraChura at 5:37 AM on July 8, 2012 [8 favorites]
There are places in America that are still rebuilding from disasters and actively seeking Habitat for Humanity volunteers. What about something like the Student Conservation Association's conservation internships (things like long-term trail maintenance, wilderness rescue, and work in national parks)? What about Americorps?
posted by ChuraChura at 5:37 AM on July 8, 2012 [8 favorites]
Just wanted to post the obligatory note that Peace Corps only accepts college graduates and is a highly competitive program.
When I was in AmeriCorps, on the other hand, I had several co-workers who were straight out of juvenile offender bootcamp. A couple of them went on to become wildland firefighters and really liked that.
I had a friend who was asked to leave college who was very happy becoming a paramedic. But one obviously has to be willing to take orders in life and death situations (in wildland firefighting as well). Another college friend got certified to teach SCUBA and moved to Grand Cayman for several years to do that. And I know multiple people who turned their WOOF experience into owning their own farm.
All of that said, like a couple of the above commenters, I'm a college professor and have students like your son every semester. Some of them wake up and realize that this is the real world, and some of those even do it in time to save their GPA and not lose their financial aid. But I see students every semester who are just unwilling to care about anything, and nothing I do will change that. I have no reason to think their parents are any more successful than I am. I don't blame you or think that you should blame yourself, but I can sympathesize with how much it sucks to watch someone just do nothing who could be doing something. I hope that he finds something.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:39 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
When I was in AmeriCorps, on the other hand, I had several co-workers who were straight out of juvenile offender bootcamp. A couple of them went on to become wildland firefighters and really liked that.
I had a friend who was asked to leave college who was very happy becoming a paramedic. But one obviously has to be willing to take orders in life and death situations (in wildland firefighting as well). Another college friend got certified to teach SCUBA and moved to Grand Cayman for several years to do that. And I know multiple people who turned their WOOF experience into owning their own farm.
All of that said, like a couple of the above commenters, I'm a college professor and have students like your son every semester. Some of them wake up and realize that this is the real world, and some of those even do it in time to save their GPA and not lose their financial aid. But I see students every semester who are just unwilling to care about anything, and nothing I do will change that. I have no reason to think their parents are any more successful than I am. I don't blame you or think that you should blame yourself, but I can sympathesize with how much it sucks to watch someone just do nothing who could be doing something. I hope that he finds something.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:39 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
I wonder if your son might be depressed. Dropping out of school, dropping out of college with one class to go, refusal to try anything that might actually matter (his music), general life apathy -- combined, these sound like classic symptoms/signs. Some depressed people self-medicate with marijuana, too.
I understand your son doesn't want to go to therapy, but if his reason is really that he doesn't think people should be paid for helping people, that's absurd. Half the jobs in this world, from doctors to mechanics to shop assistants, are people being paid to help other people. In fact, assuming he has no problem with doctors, why not see if you can get him to go to a psychiatrist? Psychiatrists have medical degrees. They just deal with minds instead of bodies.
posted by Georgina at 5:42 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
I understand your son doesn't want to go to therapy, but if his reason is really that he doesn't think people should be paid for helping people, that's absurd. Half the jobs in this world, from doctors to mechanics to shop assistants, are people being paid to help other people. In fact, assuming he has no problem with doctors, why not see if you can get him to go to a psychiatrist? Psychiatrists have medical degrees. They just deal with minds instead of bodies.
posted by Georgina at 5:42 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
I loved the David Brooks piece too. But, no offense, his rules and opinions are just 22-year old blathering (I have one of these myself and was one once, so I recognize it), and you are treating it like the gospel truth, his identity, who he is. He's 22, grasping to figure it out, no matter how many notions he articulates well with swagger.
I really feel for your son. You have given us the very definition of a special snowflake, and I think it is partly because you are now and always have been over-invested in this idea that he can find his mythic capable self deep inside and prevail. That's Hollywood talking. That capable self has to be taught and nurtured, it's not just magically there once you minister to the poor, or dig the earth. So start teaching.
I don't think you can cut him off because you haven't prepared him. So sit him down and tell him something along these lines: You MUST go to therapy, that is NON-NEGOTIABLE. (and then you need to be ready with the number of a proactive, practical, tough therapist who is goal-oriented!) You are no longer allowed to live off your savings (?), I'm taking that account away and letting it just sit there. I will give you $5,000, and not a penny more (including rent/food/car insurance/gas money/etc, excluding therapy and medical coverage). How long it lasts and what you do with it is up to you. You need to spend your time from the moment I give you the money figuring out how you are going to exist after the money stops. We are going to sit down every week and look at this, and I want to hear your thinking, how your therapy goals are going, and what ideas you have for life after the $5K.
He may well rant/rave/party harder, but when the reality of your conviction (which I encourage you to develop, pronto) sinks in, he will, fingers crossed, maybe hopefully give it a try.
posted by thinkpiece at 5:46 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
I really feel for your son. You have given us the very definition of a special snowflake, and I think it is partly because you are now and always have been over-invested in this idea that he can find his mythic capable self deep inside and prevail. That's Hollywood talking. That capable self has to be taught and nurtured, it's not just magically there once you minister to the poor, or dig the earth. So start teaching.
I don't think you can cut him off because you haven't prepared him. So sit him down and tell him something along these lines: You MUST go to therapy, that is NON-NEGOTIABLE. (and then you need to be ready with the number of a proactive, practical, tough therapist who is goal-oriented!) You are no longer allowed to live off your savings (?), I'm taking that account away and letting it just sit there. I will give you $5,000, and not a penny more (including rent/food/car insurance/gas money/etc, excluding therapy and medical coverage). How long it lasts and what you do with it is up to you. You need to spend your time from the moment I give you the money figuring out how you are going to exist after the money stops. We are going to sit down every week and look at this, and I want to hear your thinking, how your therapy goals are going, and what ideas you have for life after the $5K.
He may well rant/rave/party harder, but when the reality of your conviction (which I encourage you to develop, pronto) sinks in, he will, fingers crossed, maybe hopefully give it a try.
posted by thinkpiece at 5:46 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Give him a few grand and send him backpacking through Asia or latin America for a few months.
Please don't do this. I believe deeply in the soul-saving, redemptive power of travel but if your kid is a stoner who deals at home, there is zero chance he isn't going to be a stoner abroad - possibly one who deals or attempts to smuggle. You'd want to check very carefully country by country, but that can invite serious, non-retrieveable peril in some places. Thai prisons are no joke, nor is the Thai death penalty.
If your son has not exercised the greatest judgement and/or has difficulty connecting actions to consequences, I'd add the above to the list of reasons to very carefully reconsider overseas. Yes it could be life changing in a very positive way for him, but there are other pitfalls.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:52 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Please don't do this. I believe deeply in the soul-saving, redemptive power of travel but if your kid is a stoner who deals at home, there is zero chance he isn't going to be a stoner abroad - possibly one who deals or attempts to smuggle. You'd want to check very carefully country by country, but that can invite serious, non-retrieveable peril in some places. Thai prisons are no joke, nor is the Thai death penalty.
If your son has not exercised the greatest judgement and/or has difficulty connecting actions to consequences, I'd add the above to the list of reasons to very carefully reconsider overseas. Yes it could be life changing in a very positive way for him, but there are other pitfalls.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:52 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Home Care work. Providing care for old, sick, and dying people in their homes. This will give him a crash course in life and work, while really doing good for his clients. There are is always work and it doesn't require a lot of qualifications.
It doesn't pay well and it can be really damn hard, but it would give him more chances to do good in the world than he has probably ever had. You could offer to match his pay from the home care jobs, he earns a dollar, you match it (or double it if you are particularly flush with cash). Don't give him any more money.
posted by pseudonick at 5:57 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
It doesn't pay well and it can be really damn hard, but it would give him more chances to do good in the world than he has probably ever had. You could offer to match his pay from the home care jobs, he earns a dollar, you match it (or double it if you are particularly flush with cash). Don't give him any more money.
posted by pseudonick at 5:57 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Peace Corps isn't at all an option. They want highly focused college graduates with skill sets.
For a short-term option that might help him get from completely unfocused person with a lot of potential to someone who realizes he needs to get it together if he wants to put any of his potential to work, would it be possible for you to treat him to an Outward Bound trip? The wilderness experiences they run emphasize self-reliance, but also teamwork.
I hesitate to join the "tough love" brigade, but let me just say that I know a man who is 40 who is still stuck in your son's situation. He's a talented artist and musician, but he can't really focus enough to be part of a gallery show or to join a band. He dropped out of college, but did at one point get it together enough to attend a technical school(which his parents paid for) and earn a professional credential, which he then never used. In the 20 years I have known him, he's been employed maybe a total of a year. He's a sweet, generous, intellectually and creatively gifted man, but his life is unbelievably circumscribed by his lack of focus and his unwillingness to work with others. It makes me sad just thinking about him. I wish for better things for your son.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:03 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
For a short-term option that might help him get from completely unfocused person with a lot of potential to someone who realizes he needs to get it together if he wants to put any of his potential to work, would it be possible for you to treat him to an Outward Bound trip? The wilderness experiences they run emphasize self-reliance, but also teamwork.
I hesitate to join the "tough love" brigade, but let me just say that I know a man who is 40 who is still stuck in your son's situation. He's a talented artist and musician, but he can't really focus enough to be part of a gallery show or to join a band. He dropped out of college, but did at one point get it together enough to attend a technical school(which his parents paid for) and earn a professional credential, which he then never used. In the 20 years I have known him, he's been employed maybe a total of a year. He's a sweet, generous, intellectually and creatively gifted man, but his life is unbelievably circumscribed by his lack of focus and his unwillingness to work with others. It makes me sad just thinking about him. I wish for better things for your son.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:03 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Apprenticeship in construction. It's hard physical labour, wont need academic qualifications to get in at entry level, he'll be forced to work as part of a team and to recognise that different team members have different skills and you need all of them, and he'll be creating something tangible he can see. Plus it has the potential for him to move up the ranks later and become a team leader or site foreman if he shows ability and sound judgement.
posted by talitha_kumi at 6:28 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by talitha_kumi at 6:28 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
I actually looked at your previous questions to see if you were the parent I know of a kid, about whom they talk about in literally identical language and who is also a local weed supplier. They are financially supporting him into his twenties and also can't figure out why he isn't motivated to do anything different.
Peace Corps. He needs to put an application in NOW though.
It's been said above, but right now, with no degree, no skills, and no motivation he has both no chance at getting accepted and no chance of doing well if he were admitted.
Look, he's 22. Why are you, his mother or father, suggesting going with him to another country and helping him get started? Are you going to be cutting his food for him, too, in case the steak is too tough for his poor little fingers? Seriously, he's old enough to stand on his own, but he'll never do that if you are right there, holding him up and making all the decisions for him.
I think he needs to flounder for a while. A lot of guys do that, and they usually get serious when either something changes (run out of money, girlfriend gets pregnant, etc) or when they just mature a bit more and their brain starts working more like an adult's brain, rather than a teenager's. If he's an unmotivated stoner at home, he's going to be an unmotivated stoner in India, Texas, or the wilderness.
As a healthy young man in a fantastically rich country, and with a loving and supportive parent, he has endless options. Great ideas have been mentioned here, including wildland firefighting and artisanal butchering. But I know people who do both of those, and guess what -- it takes motivation, a hell of a lot of ass-busting, and competing with a lot of other motivated and hard-working people who also want those opportunities. Unless he's willing to put in a modicum of effort, this isn't going to work. You can't be there, doing all the work for him -- even if you get him admitted, he's going to have to stand on his own after that, and right now he's not sounding ready for that.
So I'm suggesting that you stop funding his lifestyle, period. No rent help, no spending money, nada. But I'm also suggesting that you put some opportunities on the table for him to think about and go for if and when he is ready. Assuming you can afford it, I'd offer a) to pay for therapy; b) pay for an Outward Bound-style trip (you want a place like that with a specialization in unmotivated kids, not a NGO that is trying to get work done); and c) help cover the costs of going back to school, doing an apprenticeship, or otherwise doing something cool and productive. But otherwise, no money, period.
posted by Forktine at 7:06 AM on July 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
Peace Corps. He needs to put an application in NOW though.
It's been said above, but right now, with no degree, no skills, and no motivation he has both no chance at getting accepted and no chance of doing well if he were admitted.
Look, he's 22. Why are you, his mother or father, suggesting going with him to another country and helping him get started? Are you going to be cutting his food for him, too, in case the steak is too tough for his poor little fingers? Seriously, he's old enough to stand on his own, but he'll never do that if you are right there, holding him up and making all the decisions for him.
I think he needs to flounder for a while. A lot of guys do that, and they usually get serious when either something changes (run out of money, girlfriend gets pregnant, etc) or when they just mature a bit more and their brain starts working more like an adult's brain, rather than a teenager's. If he's an unmotivated stoner at home, he's going to be an unmotivated stoner in India, Texas, or the wilderness.
As a healthy young man in a fantastically rich country, and with a loving and supportive parent, he has endless options. Great ideas have been mentioned here, including wildland firefighting and artisanal butchering. But I know people who do both of those, and guess what -- it takes motivation, a hell of a lot of ass-busting, and competing with a lot of other motivated and hard-working people who also want those opportunities. Unless he's willing to put in a modicum of effort, this isn't going to work. You can't be there, doing all the work for him -- even if you get him admitted, he's going to have to stand on his own after that, and right now he's not sounding ready for that.
So I'm suggesting that you stop funding his lifestyle, period. No rent help, no spending money, nada. But I'm also suggesting that you put some opportunities on the table for him to think about and go for if and when he is ready. Assuming you can afford it, I'd offer a) to pay for therapy; b) pay for an Outward Bound-style trip (you want a place like that with a specialization in unmotivated kids, not a NGO that is trying to get work done); and c) help cover the costs of going back to school, doing an apprenticeship, or otherwise doing something cool and productive. But otherwise, no money, period.
posted by Forktine at 7:06 AM on July 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
I'm of the middle ground here. Tell him you are going to stop funding him (and it sounds like you can mean it). But, tell him you are going to give him one gift. That gift would be hooking him up with Habitat for Humanity, buying him a ticket out west to go learn firefighting, etc.
I agree with the tough love, but I also do know the amazing benefits of shocking your thought systems with transformative experiences. Especially if it involves the dramatic, in terms of seeing other people's suffering, fire fires, heavy labor, other cultures, etc. It can be very empowering.
posted by Vaike at 7:14 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
I agree with the tough love, but I also do know the amazing benefits of shocking your thought systems with transformative experiences. Especially if it involves the dramatic, in terms of seeing other people's suffering, fire fires, heavy labor, other cultures, etc. It can be very empowering.
posted by Vaike at 7:14 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Anonymized per OP request, adding their (anonymized) updates in the next comment
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:18 AM on July 8, 2012
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:18 AM on July 8, 2012
Mod note: From the OP:
Great answers, so far. Thanks! I hear the warnings about overseas travel and also the comments about charities having to train unskilled kids not being much of a win-win!posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:20 AM on July 8, 2012
I want to make clear that I'd pay for him to go to college in a heartbeat, but that isn't something he's open to yet.
jbenben, I'm going to spend some time rereading your post - there's a lot there that's a twist on how I've been thinking and how he thinks. Not sure I actually said "post-Apocalyptic" to him, by the way...have to think what my exact words have been.
LOVE the firefighting idea, though I'm concerned about how dangerous it may be. It is exactly the kind of suggestion I'm looking for, however.
One of the only ideas he perked up about was the possibility of training to be a butcher. He likes cooking meat and is interested in learning the old ways of doing things, which butchering is in an odd way.
I have friends in medical marijuana states he could go work for, and it has occurred to me as an option (even though I am the least oriented that way of almost anyone I know. Some of my best friends...most, in fact, at one point or another...)
Wordwoman, I think it will be good for him to run out of money. My reason for kicking him out of my apartment was that I think life, with its real consequences, will be the main thing that will teach him what he needs to know. I'll take a look at Al-Anon, though.
However, I do think that having some ideas to throw his way can't hurt. People whose kids go to college gather information for them to help guide them to some extent. They help them choose colleges, for one thing. I don't see what I'm doing as all that different.
I'm trying to describe some of his positive aspects in hopes ideas may come along that connect with those aspects. I've said plenty of negative things about him. The story would not be balanced without the positive things being expressed as well. The positive aspects will be the ones that connect him to life in a positive way, at some point.
I do believe we live in a world that is more difficult for certain types of people than for others, (more difficult for many types, of course, but in this case those commonly diagnosed with ADD/ADHD). They have abilities better suited to other times. I'm not the only one who thinks this (see Thom Hartmann - A Different Perception) and I'm not saying my son is remarkable because he has these qualities. He is what he is, however. Also, not meaning it as a victim plea, just that I think it would be great for him to experience these qualities as strengths sometimes.
My aim is to be loving and supportive while ultimately recognizing that he will choose to sink or swim on his own. I'm trying to remove myself from his dynamic as much as possible, but thought it worth seeing what ideas people here might have that I could throw his way.
Alaskan fishing boat. Offer to buy him the plane ticket. It will appeal to him because he'll make a lot of money and it's an adventure. Then he'll get there and it will kick his ass sideways, because it's incredibly hard work, the boat's crew will have no patience for slackers, and he can't give up because he's trapped on a boat.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:35 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:35 AM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
I've been your son without the using or dealing. I used to think I was special and one day something special would happen and my life would become what I hoped it would be. So I waited until I ended up in a really bad work situation and suddenly realized that I was lazy and coasting. My life would only become the life I wanted if I made active steps to changing my life and my attitude. I'm just at the starting steps of that now, but I have already learned what I think is the most important lesson of this whole thing; people who succeed are not necessarily special. They are driven.
The best thing you can do for him is get him out of his apartment every so often so that he remembers that there is a larger world out there and is faced with the fact that young people every day are being successful. Honestly, silly as this sounds one of the things that pushed me out of my slump was the realization that Lady Gaga was younger than me. She has drive and made her goals happen. Invite him with you to a local music festival for a night or a weekend. Take him camping. Are you involved in charities? Bring him to a fundraising event. I'm not talking about spending money on him, just inviting him to activities that you both would enjoy to remind him that there is life outside of his own experiences. There is no magic bullet program that fixes these things. If there was, every parent of a lazy 20 something would send their kid away.
Keep him engaged in the real world but don't help him coast. Don't find him a job, don't give him money. He needs to start making choices and setting goals. He is very capable of more than he's doing now. ADD, being a Scorpio, being sensitive are all just excuses that you use to give him a pass because its hard to look at someone you love and realize that they're just lazy. Hilary Clinton is a Scorpio and she holds it down. Bill Gates is a Scorpio too and he doesn't dwell on the bad things in the world, he does what he can to fix them. The guys who founded Jet Blue and Kinkos both have ADD and they are driven people able to succeed in the corporate world. Your son is lazy and you need to stop explaining it away.
When his money runs out and he gets a job he might change. Or he might not really. Lots of people work a dead end jobs making little money and still aren't motivated to change. But its a decision that will come from within him. He's got to choose to be motivated and stay motivated. All you can do is be there as a sounding board while he works through this.
posted by GilvearSt at 7:38 AM on July 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
The best thing you can do for him is get him out of his apartment every so often so that he remembers that there is a larger world out there and is faced with the fact that young people every day are being successful. Honestly, silly as this sounds one of the things that pushed me out of my slump was the realization that Lady Gaga was younger than me. She has drive and made her goals happen. Invite him with you to a local music festival for a night or a weekend. Take him camping. Are you involved in charities? Bring him to a fundraising event. I'm not talking about spending money on him, just inviting him to activities that you both would enjoy to remind him that there is life outside of his own experiences. There is no magic bullet program that fixes these things. If there was, every parent of a lazy 20 something would send their kid away.
Keep him engaged in the real world but don't help him coast. Don't find him a job, don't give him money. He needs to start making choices and setting goals. He is very capable of more than he's doing now. ADD, being a Scorpio, being sensitive are all just excuses that you use to give him a pass because its hard to look at someone you love and realize that they're just lazy. Hilary Clinton is a Scorpio and she holds it down. Bill Gates is a Scorpio too and he doesn't dwell on the bad things in the world, he does what he can to fix them. The guys who founded Jet Blue and Kinkos both have ADD and they are driven people able to succeed in the corporate world. Your son is lazy and you need to stop explaining it away.
When his money runs out and he gets a job he might change. Or he might not really. Lots of people work a dead end jobs making little money and still aren't motivated to change. But its a decision that will come from within him. He's got to choose to be motivated and stay motivated. All you can do is be there as a sounding board while he works through this.
posted by GilvearSt at 7:38 AM on July 8, 2012 [6 favorites]
Your son is so special he has to drop out of everything in life except dabbling with music or whatever and being stoned. He needs to learn how not special and pathetically common he is. He is just another slacker, pure and simple. Could he be more? Of course, but he has to decide to do it. You must back away and let him live the consequences of his adolescent stupidity. It's his only chance.
It seems doubtful you will be able to muster the will do that though. Even in your post, which is really about his very real short comings, you go on and on about how special he is. Face it. He is surely an individual, but he is not special in any real way. Special people do special and useful things. He does nothing. He will face it some day. I sure hope it's soon enough.
posted by txmon at 7:45 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
It seems doubtful you will be able to muster the will do that though. Even in your post, which is really about his very real short comings, you go on and on about how special he is. Face it. He is surely an individual, but he is not special in any real way. Special people do special and useful things. He does nothing. He will face it some day. I sure hope it's soon enough.
posted by txmon at 7:45 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Mod note: From the OP:
First, I am not supporting him financially and have no plans to.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:48 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
He found his own apartment and has been paying all his living expenses. My primary reason for refusing to go on providing an apartment for him was that I know he has to experience the actual consequences of his choices and running out of money while still having bills to pay will do that faster than anything I could say or do.
I don't spend a lot of time fretting about him. I live 3 hours away and am trying to live my own life productively and happily. I just had this brainstorm yesterday that the hive mind might have some ideas that would help him. You have, by the way. This has been extremely helpful. I love the internet! (My son hates it, by the way, thinks it keeps people from having real face-to-face interactions.)
My plan is to write him a letter with some options laid out, including names of 2 or 3 therapists, programs he might find interesting, etc. I will reiterate in this letter that going forward I am willing to help with education, health, therapy and possibly travel expenses, but that I will not help him with living expenses. I would have given him 3 months rent when he moved, actually, but he was very clear that he wants to support himself and not rely on my help. It will be interesting to see what he says when and if he actually runs out of money. I am clear that I will NOT help him and I don't think my ex has the resources to.
I do still talk with my son frequently and take him out for meals when I see him, which has been often this summer. He has been talking to me more about what is really going on for him and is slightly more open to next steps.
He has a sweet girlfriend who works two jobs and is going to community college. He is working hard to maintain that relationship and acknowledges that he's not the easiest guy to be in a relationship with. I think he's learning a lot from this and managing to change some of his behavior.
He does want to get his Associates' degree. He was actually doing quite well with it (3.1 average) until I told him he needed to move out once school ended because he kept losing roommates by being a jerk (not my actual words). He got really depressed, broke up with his girlfriend (who was in the class he was taking) and failed his one final class. The class was Math which he'd been putting off because he hates it. He does plan to go back and finish. He is considering taking a few more classes so his Associates can be in Business rather than just liberal studies. He is interested in business and has many relevant skills for entrepreneurial ventures but, oh boy, does he need some serious work experience first!
My main advice to him is - first get a license so you can explore things that interest you without convincing a friend to drive and so that you can GET A JOB! (he is very resistant to going places and I think it's partly because he's at the mercy of whoever has the car). Then get a job, any job, where you are accountable to others, have some structure to your time, will be learning something at least, and will be moving forward one way or another. I tell him making the perfect choice for his next step isn't crucial, but that taking steps forward is. I suggested he do at least one significant thing every day that is making progress toward a possible goal.
Overall I'd say I'm offering suggestions and trying to keep the lines of communication open without being overly invested in the outcome. It is, as you all say, HIS LIFE, not mine and the only control I have at this point is purse strings - which I will only open for growth oriented pursuits as mentioned above.
I also do tell him how common his feelings of doubt, fear, and paralysis are, but that the only way out of that kind of fear is to go through it by doing something.
Hi. Your son is my brother almost exactly, even to the ADD Scorpio thing. He's in his mid-30s now and still lives at home because my mom thinks he's too sensitive to be kicked out. My mom supported him while he built all sorts of self-imposed limitations. She has paid off cars and credit cards for him when he couldn't manage the responsibility. She idealized his abilities, believing him to be a special genius with overflowing talents. She would like to sell her house and downsize, but will not do so because she still thinks my brother will find his niche in the world and she wants to give him the house. He does not want the house because it's not his idea.
For his part, he has no interest in fulfilling any goals. He has an undemanding job where he's been handed promotions repeatedly which he turned down for a number of invented self-made limits, like that he shouldn't be supervising anyone at work if he still lives at home. After 6 years of community college classes (paid for by mom) he finally got the credits he needed for an AA, but he never filled out the paperwork to complete his degree so, that's been in limbo for years. Now he's convinced himself that he's too old to go back to school, so he remains the only person in my family to have only a high school diploma. He's been in jail. Destroyed relationships with his immobility and negativity. Went to court-ordered therapy for the mandated time only. He admitted he thought the therapy helped him a little, but saw no need to continue it because he was "fine." He's been protected and rescued by my mom to the point where he's about to be 40 and still dependent on her.
My advice is to detach and actually do less for your son. This may mean accepting that maybe he doesn't have the ability to do more than he's doing right now. It was hard to admit that to myself about my brother, too; that despite his obvious intellect and ability, he chooses not to challenge himself and really has no ambition to use his talents. Get therapy for yourself. If I could go back to when my brother was 18, I would tell my mom to get her codependency issues sorted out rather than having wasted years trying to "persuade" him on her behalf. Oh, and I have suggested just about everything you are considering to my brother. He'd agree that some of them sounded like good ideas and then go back to smoking pot and playing music. You cannot make anyone do what you think is best for them, they have to choose it. Do not bail him out. He is making his own choices. Part of being an adult is figuring out what to do with yourself.
(BTW, I am also a Scorpio with ADD yet I have always excelled academically, have a Master's degree, have written a book, etc . . . so none of those things are insurmountable impediments. Where there is a will to succeed it will occur. I say this as a Scorpio married to another very driven and successful Scorpio.)
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:59 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
For his part, he has no interest in fulfilling any goals. He has an undemanding job where he's been handed promotions repeatedly which he turned down for a number of invented self-made limits, like that he shouldn't be supervising anyone at work if he still lives at home. After 6 years of community college classes (paid for by mom) he finally got the credits he needed for an AA, but he never filled out the paperwork to complete his degree so, that's been in limbo for years. Now he's convinced himself that he's too old to go back to school, so he remains the only person in my family to have only a high school diploma. He's been in jail. Destroyed relationships with his immobility and negativity. Went to court-ordered therapy for the mandated time only. He admitted he thought the therapy helped him a little, but saw no need to continue it because he was "fine." He's been protected and rescued by my mom to the point where he's about to be 40 and still dependent on her.
My advice is to detach and actually do less for your son. This may mean accepting that maybe he doesn't have the ability to do more than he's doing right now. It was hard to admit that to myself about my brother, too; that despite his obvious intellect and ability, he chooses not to challenge himself and really has no ambition to use his talents. Get therapy for yourself. If I could go back to when my brother was 18, I would tell my mom to get her codependency issues sorted out rather than having wasted years trying to "persuade" him on her behalf. Oh, and I have suggested just about everything you are considering to my brother. He'd agree that some of them sounded like good ideas and then go back to smoking pot and playing music. You cannot make anyone do what you think is best for them, they have to choose it. Do not bail him out. He is making his own choices. Part of being an adult is figuring out what to do with yourself.
(BTW, I am also a Scorpio with ADD yet I have always excelled academically, have a Master's degree, have written a book, etc . . . so none of those things are insurmountable impediments. Where there is a will to succeed it will occur. I say this as a Scorpio married to another very driven and successful Scorpio.)
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:59 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
He has a sweet girlfriend who works two jobs and is going to community college. He is working hard to maintain that relationship and acknowledges that he's not the easiest guy to be in a relationship with. I think he's learning a lot from this and managing to change some of his behavior.
I'm not saying you're doing this, but this does remind me of something from my brother's case. My mom still thinks what's going to motivate my brother to get his shit together is some girl. He's been down that path several times with women who were more independent, ambitious and supportive. MeMail me if you want to know how those turned out. I'll just say that one of his jail stints was related to this issue.
Don't expect his motivation to come from a relationship.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:04 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying you're doing this, but this does remind me of something from my brother's case. My mom still thinks what's going to motivate my brother to get his shit together is some girl. He's been down that path several times with women who were more independent, ambitious and supportive. MeMail me if you want to know how those turned out. I'll just say that one of his jail stints was related to this issue.
Don't expect his motivation to come from a relationship.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 8:04 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I will reiterate in this letter that going forward I am willing to help with education, health, therapy and possibly travel expenses, but that I will not help him with living expenses. I would have given him 3 months rent when he moved, actually, but he was very clear that he wants to support himself and not rely on my help.
It's one thing to pay for a doctor if he gets sick but why would you pay for his school now after you've seen how he treats school? He dropped out of high school and he dropped out of college. You would be better off taking a couple hundred dollars and setting it on fire. He's not going to take school seriously if there are no consequences for him. If you foot the bill, when something does happen he will retreat again rather than deal with it. After two times of him dropping out when there were no consequences, why would the third time be suddenly different?
As for giving him money for travel expenses, why? If he wants to travel, then he needs to figure out how to fund it, make a budget and pay for it himself. Real people in the real world don't get to travel on someone else's dime. You say that you don't have any plans to support him financially but then you list off all the ways you're happy to support him financially. Don't. Give him some money on his birthday and otherwise force him to live off his own resources.
posted by GilvearSt at 8:24 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
It's one thing to pay for a doctor if he gets sick but why would you pay for his school now after you've seen how he treats school? He dropped out of high school and he dropped out of college. You would be better off taking a couple hundred dollars and setting it on fire. He's not going to take school seriously if there are no consequences for him. If you foot the bill, when something does happen he will retreat again rather than deal with it. After two times of him dropping out when there were no consequences, why would the third time be suddenly different?
As for giving him money for travel expenses, why? If he wants to travel, then he needs to figure out how to fund it, make a budget and pay for it himself. Real people in the real world don't get to travel on someone else's dime. You say that you don't have any plans to support him financially but then you list off all the ways you're happy to support him financially. Don't. Give him some money on his birthday and otherwise force him to live off his own resources.
posted by GilvearSt at 8:24 AM on July 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Related to the therapy, I didn't see an answer about how your son was diagnosed ADD, or if this is self-diagnosis? Continue to suggest he get treatment for his ADD - if that's what he has, therapy and medicines exist that can help quite a bit.
posted by canine epigram at 8:49 AM on July 8, 2012
posted by canine epigram at 8:49 AM on July 8, 2012
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth, my son was given a likely diagnosis of ADD by a child psychiatrist who did a battery of tests when he was 5. He was given a definite diagnosis at age 13 when he was seeing a therapist briefly when my ex and I split up. My ex and my son are totally opposed to medication. I have encouraged him to try it, but am on the fence about using it long-term.posted by cortex (staff) at 8:53 AM on July 8, 2012
I agree with you about not making excuses for him. I think knowing what you are working with in terms of limitations and strengths is helpful. I do NOT think using either set as an excuse for checking out of life or expecting exceptions to be made for you is helpful.
Lots of excellent advice already. I would also suggest another approach, which is that you model the life you think he should be leading. All the ideas you have for him, you do them, and more importantly love and thrive from them. Go away for a year, volunteer, put things on the line, play well with others, go back to school, learn a new skill, be a cog in the wheel of life.....
Make a new life for yourself, one where you are so incredibly busy (with meaningful and new experiences) you don't have time to think about him or how he is doing. When you do talk to him, you will be so excited about your life you won't have the time or inclination to get bogged down in your story of his life.
Seriously, just do it. Your son will follow.
posted by nanook at 9:37 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
Make a new life for yourself, one where you are so incredibly busy (with meaningful and new experiences) you don't have time to think about him or how he is doing. When you do talk to him, you will be so excited about your life you won't have the time or inclination to get bogged down in your story of his life.
Seriously, just do it. Your son will follow.
posted by nanook at 9:37 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
Hey, OP. I want to commend you for trying to help your son get out of this spot. I would like to nominate myself as an honorary member of Team Get Anonymous's Son Out of This Spot, Because This Spot Sucks. I was in this spot, and I know of whence I speak.
Anyway. I'm going to make a boatload of assumptions. Just so we're on the same page.
I also want you to please read this description of Motivational Interviewing. It's a therapy technique that I think will be helpful for you when you try and talk with your son.
Now I'd like to write you a sample letter. This borrows heavily from the above assumptions.
posted by Fee Phi Faux Phumb I Smell t'Socks o' a Puppetman! at 9:47 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
Anyway. I'm going to make a boatload of assumptions. Just so we're on the same page.
- You are the dad.
- Your son's primary diagnosis is Being Stuck, with (possible) comorbidities of ADHD, major depression, some kind of anxiety disorder, and/or Child of Divorce Syndrome [I had/have all of them myself.]
- You are suffering from Parent of Child of Divorce Syndrome, with possible comorbidities of guilt and "oh crap I did this and now he's broken forever."
- Both sides are unhappy and frustrated but don't know how to deal, even if that's not what they're saying out loud. Both sides almost certainly are not saying this out loud to each other.
- This is totally fixable, and ought to be fixed, and you can and should help fix it.
I also want you to please read this description of Motivational Interviewing. It's a therapy technique that I think will be helpful for you when you try and talk with your son.
Now I'd like to write you a sample letter. This borrows heavily from the above assumptions.
Dear Son of Anonymous,(MeMail me if you want more actually-based-on-your-particular-situation advice. I hate to see kids floundering in their 20s. It makes me deeply uncomfortable not least because I know for that whole decade of my life my parents were totally freaking out and had absolutely no clue what to do for me.)
I'm going to start this letter to you by saying some things in a forthright manner that maybe we both "know" but we don't say out loud. I'm talking here as Dad, Guy Who Is Permanently On Your Side, rather than Father, King of all Wisdom.
Neither you nor I are really comfortable with either where you are right now in life or our relationship with one another. This blows.
You're a little stuck right now, and I'm not entirely sure why. My suspicions are that this is a combination of feeling powerless, of not really seeing any benefit to making a definitive move in any direction, of maybe some untreated mental illness, of a seeming lack of resources or avenues of escape, and quite possibly the gnawing sense that none of this really matters in the long run and it's all bogus anyhow. I wonder sometimes if the divorce and the lack of stability and not seeing yourself on the same defined and happy path that society tells us you 'should' be on by now is part of that.
I really wish I could magically make it all better, but boy howdy is that outside the realm of possibility. I really wish that you just suddenly deciding to work hard and be awesome was the secret to all our problems, but I'm pretty sure that's not right either.
I have all these ideas for how you could get yourself unstuck, and ways that I'm comfortable helping you with that, and I just don't know if you're going to be OK with trying any of them, or that you're going to be convinced they're going to work. I'm not even sure if I really know what the actual problem is - I see the symptoms of you living off of a criminal enterprise and not having a car and so forth, and I can't figure out what will fix that or what my role should be or what exactly is making things hard for you.
For example, the Society for Creative Anachronism feels like it'd be a great place for you to go and meet motivated, interesting, often highly successful adults, and get to exercise your desire for authenticity and an old fashioned way of life. But I wonder if maybe your desire for authenticity is more a reaction to your frustrations and the distinct imperfections of modern life, rather than something you'd actually enjoy for its own sake?
I want to help you figure out your actual goals. Not short-term stuff like getting a degree (though that is really important) but what you want your life to actually look like. Where do you want to be in a year? In two years? In five years? Ten? Do you know? Do you think that what you want is possible?
I want to help you figure out how to reach those goals, and (within reason) I want to help you reach them. Maybe therapy would be help - by the way, the reason they get paid to do their jobs is because they do those jobs all day long and need to find the money to eat and pay off the student loans somewhere - but it obviously won't if you're dead set against it. Maybe going out and helping other people is the key - but probably not if what you really need is to put your own oxygen mask on first. Maybe embracing acceptance and deciding you will always live in a tiny messy apartment and never go very many places is what's really going to lead you to happiness. That seems unlikely to me, and it seems like you're unhappy right now, so I guess that one's out too. What do you think?
I have mountains of possible advice for you but I can't figure out what you actually need. I have some money and I want to help. My main goal is your success - and by that I do not mean "lots of money, fabulous apartment, gorgeous girlfriend, 2.5 children, and a Ferrari," but rather you being satisfied and progressing and not putting yourself at undue risk of great harm.
I'd like to propose that we work together on this - the figuring out goals and identifying barriers stuff - in earnest. Your mom can join us too, provided she's willing. You can set whatever boundaries you want for this conversation; we can only bring it up once a month, or only in the presence of ice cream, or we can absolutely forbid mention of the word "therapy," or whatever.
I think you are an awesome person who has some solvable problems. I think I am a flawed person who really wants to help you solve those problems. I think we'd make a decent team.
I'm going to stop making suggestions for a while and just try and remind you that I'm here, and on your side, and want to help. Please let me know if you're willing to have this conversation with me. I promise to respect you the whole time even if I'm secretly going nuts inside - you can even have a funny little buzz-making device to remind me if I overstep the line. Let me know. I'll check back on this issue in six months if you haven't said anything.
Love,
Dad
posted by Fee Phi Faux Phumb I Smell t'Socks o' a Puppetman! at 9:47 AM on July 8, 2012 [5 favorites]
...first get a license ...he's at the mercy of whoever has the car...
Wait, he doesn't have a driver's license or a car?
Tell him if he gets his license, you'll buy him either a car or a motorbike.
Get him a running (barely) VW and a copy of "The Idiot's Guide to VW Repair." Or a basic motorbike with a repair book. Offer to help him with maintenance and repair. Go tool shopping with him and get some basic tools. Most cities have a used tool place where you can pick up stuff cheap.
Something that runs, more or less, will give him that sweet, sweet taste of freedom. After that, there's two ways he could go with it--he could sulk, call it junk, refuse to change the oil and end up seizing the engine completely, or he could learn how to rebuild, make it one sweet purring machine, paint it candy apple metallic flake, and sell it for n-times what it was originally worth.
posted by BlueHorse at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Wait, he doesn't have a driver's license or a car?
Tell him if he gets his license, you'll buy him either a car or a motorbike.
Get him a running (barely) VW and a copy of "The Idiot's Guide to VW Repair." Or a basic motorbike with a repair book. Offer to help him with maintenance and repair. Go tool shopping with him and get some basic tools. Most cities have a used tool place where you can pick up stuff cheap.
Something that runs, more or less, will give him that sweet, sweet taste of freedom. After that, there's two ways he could go with it--he could sulk, call it junk, refuse to change the oil and end up seizing the engine completely, or he could learn how to rebuild, make it one sweet purring machine, paint it candy apple metallic flake, and sell it for n-times what it was originally worth.
posted by BlueHorse at 11:00 AM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
My ex and my son are totally opposed to medication. I have encouraged him to try it, but am on the fence about using it long-term.
I understand what you are saying here, so I am saying this straight; it seems to me that he has been medicating himself long-term, anyway. He sees where that has left him. Maybe it's time now to encourage him to try it the right way, and let him see if it makes a difference compared to the way he's been doing it.
I would also suggest that if he is at all interested in learning butchering or the culinary trades, they are not going to let him anywhere near a knife, cleaver, slicer, band saw or meat grinder if they think he is stoned. Trust me when I tell you that every executive chef on the planet knows what drunk and/or stoned looks like.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
I understand what you are saying here, so I am saying this straight; it seems to me that he has been medicating himself long-term, anyway. He sees where that has left him. Maybe it's time now to encourage him to try it the right way, and let him see if it makes a difference compared to the way he's been doing it.
I would also suggest that if he is at all interested in learning butchering or the culinary trades, they are not going to let him anywhere near a knife, cleaver, slicer, band saw or meat grinder if they think he is stoned. Trust me when I tell you that every executive chef on the planet knows what drunk and/or stoned looks like.
posted by halfbuckaroo at 11:47 AM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
One more thing to add: I have some friends who are dealing with a family member right now in almost the same circumstances, except he's 30 and they don't support him so the only job he's had ever is dealing weed. Every once in a while he gets in legal trouble and they try to help him out: offer help with school, help moving away from his dealer friends, place to stay etc. etc. They are incredibly frustrated and have repeatedly said that he's a good guy, capable of doing stuff and just needs to get motivated, make some good decisions, work harder and a bunch of stuff similar to this thread. Now I've met him and, to me, it's incredibly obvious that he's got some kind of learning or personality disorder. I'm not going to try and diagnose people but he's clearly of normal intelligence but still a few knives short of a full set emotionally. Think Britney Spears. Personally I think he needs to be in some sort of structured living arrangement for a very long time and needs to see a psychiatrist. Family, at this point, is no longer willing to provide that and since he's in the US there aren't a lot of other options for him.
He also refuses to travel, refuses to work jobs he thinks are beneath him, can't get along with others, has grandiose plans (instead of sensible ones). He's also consistently taken advantage of by others and defends their actions because they're his "friends". However, I genuinely think he can't help this. He has no patience, no impulse control and no sense of delayed gratification. He sees everything in terms of how it effects him immediately and is incapable of taking a step back and a deep breath. Play Station is as important to him as holding down a job. But he's reasonably smart and likable. My take on it is that everyone is doing him an unintentional disservice by focusing on the good aspects of his personality and his skills. It's not what he's worried about for sure, he's worried about his inability to be like other people. I think a frank sit down talk about how he can improve that (which is going to involve mental health professionals for sure) would be the best thing anyone could do for him.
However, I have not had the guts to tell my friend this. Telling someone that their loved family member appears to be kind of "off" and I think he needs professional mental health care is HARD. I don't know how to say it to avoid giving offense or sounding like I'm criticizing all of their efforts to date. In summary: your kid sounds like he knows he has a problem, maybe be open to talking about it and be open to the fact it may be a lot more serious than him being an unfocused 22 year old and there may not be a quick fix.
posted by fshgrl at 2:57 PM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
He also refuses to travel, refuses to work jobs he thinks are beneath him, can't get along with others, has grandiose plans (instead of sensible ones). He's also consistently taken advantage of by others and defends their actions because they're his "friends". However, I genuinely think he can't help this. He has no patience, no impulse control and no sense of delayed gratification. He sees everything in terms of how it effects him immediately and is incapable of taking a step back and a deep breath. Play Station is as important to him as holding down a job. But he's reasonably smart and likable. My take on it is that everyone is doing him an unintentional disservice by focusing on the good aspects of his personality and his skills. It's not what he's worried about for sure, he's worried about his inability to be like other people. I think a frank sit down talk about how he can improve that (which is going to involve mental health professionals for sure) would be the best thing anyone could do for him.
However, I have not had the guts to tell my friend this. Telling someone that their loved family member appears to be kind of "off" and I think he needs professional mental health care is HARD. I don't know how to say it to avoid giving offense or sounding like I'm criticizing all of their efforts to date. In summary: your kid sounds like he knows he has a problem, maybe be open to talking about it and be open to the fact it may be a lot more serious than him being an unfocused 22 year old and there may not be a quick fix.
posted by fshgrl at 2:57 PM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Don't go military, go cowboy in Australia.
Your son sounds perfect in age and temperament to spend a couple of years in outback Australia on a cattle ranch working (often with members of the world's oldest continuous culture). He'll get the visa and the work is there aplenty. He could do a skills course on arrival and get placement through the school. The jobs pay OK and there's hardly anywhere to spend the money if you go way outback. The skills he'd learn, the challenges he'd face sound right up his ally.
posted by Kerasia at 2:59 PM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Your son sounds perfect in age and temperament to spend a couple of years in outback Australia on a cattle ranch working (often with members of the world's oldest continuous culture). He'll get the visa and the work is there aplenty. He could do a skills course on arrival and get placement through the school. The jobs pay OK and there's hardly anywhere to spend the money if you go way outback. The skills he'd learn, the challenges he'd face sound right up his ally.
posted by Kerasia at 2:59 PM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Write to me if you want more info working on a cattle station in Australia.
posted by Kerasia at 3:01 PM on July 8, 2012
posted by Kerasia at 3:01 PM on July 8, 2012
People whose kids go to college gather information for them to help guide them to some extent. They help them choose colleges, for one thing. I don't see what I'm doing as all that different.
The difference is the following: first, the kids are minors. Next, the parents work with the kids over a period of years to create the sort of expectations in line with going to college and then, once the kid has absorbed those expectations, then the parent reinforces the kid by helping him out. This is similar with the sort of parent who might know someone to help their kid get a college internship.
What you're doing is similar to a parent who is the one who requests the college application packet for their kid and keeps begging him to apply to a place he's not even particularly interested in and/or finding a job for him while meanwhile not bothering to insist on the "foundational" accomplishments of, say, self-discipline (finishing what he's started), self-care (learning to clean up) and an independent life (learning to drive). You're sort of expecting/hoping he gets the results of those foundational accomplishments and life skills (a job, an education, or even just the basic ability to support himself on his own) without those foundations.
posted by deanc at 3:37 PM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
The difference is the following: first, the kids are minors. Next, the parents work with the kids over a period of years to create the sort of expectations in line with going to college and then, once the kid has absorbed those expectations, then the parent reinforces the kid by helping him out. This is similar with the sort of parent who might know someone to help their kid get a college internship.
What you're doing is similar to a parent who is the one who requests the college application packet for their kid and keeps begging him to apply to a place he's not even particularly interested in and/or finding a job for him while meanwhile not bothering to insist on the "foundational" accomplishments of, say, self-discipline (finishing what he's started), self-care (learning to clean up) and an independent life (learning to drive). You're sort of expecting/hoping he gets the results of those foundational accomplishments and life skills (a job, an education, or even just the basic ability to support himself on his own) without those foundations.
posted by deanc at 3:37 PM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Alaskan fishing boat. Offer to buy him the plane ticket. It will appeal to him because he'll make a lot of money and it's an adventure. Then he'll get there and it will kick his ass sideways, because it's incredibly hard work, the boat's crew will have no patience for slackers, and he can't give up because he's trapped on a boat.
No, see. The people I know who did the fishing boat thing got there on a shoe string. They hitchhiked. Or they spent their last $100 on gas. And their parents opposed it because it was so dangerous. People seriously do die on those fishing boats.
Back in the day, you could get anywhere on Greyhound for some ridiculously low price, like $49, if you bought your ticket early enough. And the places I went that way were adventures, places *I* got myself to. If you tell him to go on an Alaskan fishing boat and FLY him there, I can't tell you how wrong that is. It is totally missing the point.
I dunno. I don't have good advice for you. I guess I think the best advice above is that you live the life you think he should and occasionally invite him along. But your history with him may make that the wrong move. Maybe he needs you to push him now. I'd ask someone who knows you both in real life. Do tell him he could easily move somewhere where he wouldn't need a car.
posted by salvia at 7:19 PM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
No, see. The people I know who did the fishing boat thing got there on a shoe string. They hitchhiked. Or they spent their last $100 on gas. And their parents opposed it because it was so dangerous. People seriously do die on those fishing boats.
Back in the day, you could get anywhere on Greyhound for some ridiculously low price, like $49, if you bought your ticket early enough. And the places I went that way were adventures, places *I* got myself to. If you tell him to go on an Alaskan fishing boat and FLY him there, I can't tell you how wrong that is. It is totally missing the point.
I dunno. I don't have good advice for you. I guess I think the best advice above is that you live the life you think he should and occasionally invite him along. But your history with him may make that the wrong move. Maybe he needs you to push him now. I'd ask someone who knows you both in real life. Do tell him he could easily move somewhere where he wouldn't need a car.
posted by salvia at 7:19 PM on July 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
(Please don't go military -- his slacking will put OTHER'S lives in danger, and that is not fair to those military members or their families.)
AmeriCorps might be a great fit for your son. Honestly, though, he doesn't know enough skills to be useful as a volunteer, and it sounds like he's not willing to be trained, so things like Habitat for Humanity, or projects devoted to greening the ghetto are out as well.
You mentioned he's not down with therapy -- what about something like Al-Anon, or an anxiety support group, where he can talk through his anxieties? The reason I mention anxiety is because to me it sounds like he's got some obsessive anxiety/fear cycles going on.
posted by spunweb at 8:34 PM on July 8, 2012
AmeriCorps might be a great fit for your son. Honestly, though, he doesn't know enough skills to be useful as a volunteer, and it sounds like he's not willing to be trained, so things like Habitat for Humanity, or projects devoted to greening the ghetto are out as well.
You mentioned he's not down with therapy -- what about something like Al-Anon, or an anxiety support group, where he can talk through his anxieties? The reason I mention anxiety is because to me it sounds like he's got some obsessive anxiety/fear cycles going on.
posted by spunweb at 8:34 PM on July 8, 2012
Ok, for the record, I think astrology is bullshit, so you may use that as a reason to discount what I say, but I needed to say it.
Second, my kid is still little, so I haven't dealt with parenting an adult.
But your son is 22. You are really upset that he's floundering; did you never flounder in your 20s? Most people do. Or else they do it later, when it's harder. He seems to have several issues in play, which you can only help him with in a limited way if you want him to grow up.
1. Drug dealing; he'll end up doing some kind of time if he keeps it up, and a record could also play hell with any employment prospects he might want to pursue in the future. I don't know what you can tell him about it except "Son, this is deeply stupid and jail or prison will fuck you up, please stop." But if he doesn't, that's his bad decision to make.
2. Depression: inability to make decisions is one definite sign. He can't get better if he doesn't seek help. But you can't make him get help. All you can do is ask "Please get help so you can get your life together. I'll pay for your therapy and/or antidepressants." Possibly his ADD is involved, possibly not. A therapist and/or doctor need to sort that out. But he has to go to them, which is, again, his decision.
3. Your refusal to see him as anything but a special snowflake that is getting in the way. Look, your kid is special. So is mine. They all are. But that doesn't change the world we live in, which is a rough and challenging place. You want to send him off to the wilds to Become a Man, but he can't even deal with suburbia and community college; how the hell will he deal with firejumping or the third world? Why would you think he would shine? He might just shut down or bug out. This may be hard to face, but your son is not the victim of a world that doesn't see his specialness, at least not any more than we all are. He's a kid with a supportive dad who has managed to put off growing up and taking responsibility for dealing with his issues or making his life choices. And again, all you can tell him is, "I love you, but this is all I can do for you. You need to decide how it's going to go from here on out." And then let him do that.
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 PM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
Second, my kid is still little, so I haven't dealt with parenting an adult.
But your son is 22. You are really upset that he's floundering; did you never flounder in your 20s? Most people do. Or else they do it later, when it's harder. He seems to have several issues in play, which you can only help him with in a limited way if you want him to grow up.
1. Drug dealing; he'll end up doing some kind of time if he keeps it up, and a record could also play hell with any employment prospects he might want to pursue in the future. I don't know what you can tell him about it except "Son, this is deeply stupid and jail or prison will fuck you up, please stop." But if he doesn't, that's his bad decision to make.
2. Depression: inability to make decisions is one definite sign. He can't get better if he doesn't seek help. But you can't make him get help. All you can do is ask "Please get help so you can get your life together. I'll pay for your therapy and/or antidepressants." Possibly his ADD is involved, possibly not. A therapist and/or doctor need to sort that out. But he has to go to them, which is, again, his decision.
3. Your refusal to see him as anything but a special snowflake that is getting in the way. Look, your kid is special. So is mine. They all are. But that doesn't change the world we live in, which is a rough and challenging place. You want to send him off to the wilds to Become a Man, but he can't even deal with suburbia and community college; how the hell will he deal with firejumping or the third world? Why would you think he would shine? He might just shut down or bug out. This may be hard to face, but your son is not the victim of a world that doesn't see his specialness, at least not any more than we all are. He's a kid with a supportive dad who has managed to put off growing up and taking responsibility for dealing with his issues or making his life choices. And again, all you can tell him is, "I love you, but this is all I can do for you. You need to decide how it's going to go from here on out." And then let him do that.
posted by emjaybee at 9:02 PM on July 8, 2012 [3 favorites]
I have friends in medical marijuana states he could go work for, and it has occurred to me as an option (even though I am the least oriented that way of almost anyone I know. Some of my best friends...most, in fact, at one point or another...)
I don't know that this would be the best idea. I guess he's dealing now because it's basically "contract" work. Working officially with MM will not only mean being motivated enough to get up and out of bed every day but also paying attention to strict medical guidelines regarding distribution. He doesn't seem to have enough respect for authority (at this point) to diligently check IDs.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 9:31 PM on July 8, 2012
I don't know that this would be the best idea. I guess he's dealing now because it's basically "contract" work. Working officially with MM will not only mean being motivated enough to get up and out of bed every day but also paying attention to strict medical guidelines regarding distribution. He doesn't seem to have enough respect for authority (at this point) to diligently check IDs.
posted by Lt. Bunny Wigglesworth at 9:31 PM on July 8, 2012
One point about boats (my experience isn't Alaska but it's pretty common across the fishing industry) is that there is a MASSIVE MASSIVE MASSIVE drug culture. Just like longhaul trucking. These guys can and will stay awake for days and most use drugs to do it, and to cope with the damage it does to their body. And it isn't just shiftwork, or irregular events; every trip out is a week + of destroying your body's ability to sleep. Every single trawler worker I know (deckhand to cook to skipper to owner) has (or had) a drug and/or alcohol problem. Some can and do quit, but it's a hard environment to be sober in. It's not marijuana, it's amphetamines in their different adulterations.
It's a hard industry, and it has its rewards, but there is a seediness that isn't particularly well-buried.
Another note: between the Scorpio stuff, the ADD stuff, the hunter-gatherer stuff, this kid has been told over and over and over again that he cannot succeed in daily life. Just because he's too special. The reasons behind it don't take away from the "can't do it" bit. And your actions reinforce it - no, my parents didn't help me choose a university, or fill in the forms, or find a flat, or find a career. My sister and I both got jobs from our parents or from friends of our parents - jobs which were entry level scut-work paying minimum wage and weren't anything close to a career. We were 17 at the time as well. By the time I was 22 I had finished a degree with honours and I'd been living away from home for five years supporting myself - actually, they bought me my first car too, a $2k shitbox that did me until around 22 when I gave it to one of my cousins.
I have an anxiety disorder and by 22 I had PTSD. I managed a 125% courseload while working part-time (at said scut-work). My parents worried, and fretted. They didn't assume I needed them to come in and save the day and show me options. I worked it out on my own because *I* know *myself* better than they know me.
I was able to because in spite of the labels and the reasons I fail at parts of my life, I wasn't told that I'm just too damn special to work and make a living like anyone else. The Scorpian ADD stuff just reinforces your kid's view that he can't and won't make it in a 'normal' life - except that he's not got the skills to make it elsewhere either. He's floundering in shallow water and you're weighing him down with lifelines instead of letting him stand up.
posted by geek anachronism at 9:58 PM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
It's a hard industry, and it has its rewards, but there is a seediness that isn't particularly well-buried.
Another note: between the Scorpio stuff, the ADD stuff, the hunter-gatherer stuff, this kid has been told over and over and over again that he cannot succeed in daily life. Just because he's too special. The reasons behind it don't take away from the "can't do it" bit. And your actions reinforce it - no, my parents didn't help me choose a university, or fill in the forms, or find a flat, or find a career. My sister and I both got jobs from our parents or from friends of our parents - jobs which were entry level scut-work paying minimum wage and weren't anything close to a career. We were 17 at the time as well. By the time I was 22 I had finished a degree with honours and I'd been living away from home for five years supporting myself - actually, they bought me my first car too, a $2k shitbox that did me until around 22 when I gave it to one of my cousins.
I have an anxiety disorder and by 22 I had PTSD. I managed a 125% courseload while working part-time (at said scut-work). My parents worried, and fretted. They didn't assume I needed them to come in and save the day and show me options. I worked it out on my own because *I* know *myself* better than they know me.
I was able to because in spite of the labels and the reasons I fail at parts of my life, I wasn't told that I'm just too damn special to work and make a living like anyone else. The Scorpian ADD stuff just reinforces your kid's view that he can't and won't make it in a 'normal' life - except that he's not got the skills to make it elsewhere either. He's floundering in shallow water and you're weighing him down with lifelines instead of letting him stand up.
posted by geek anachronism at 9:58 PM on July 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
Original poster, dear now anonymous, please memail me, if you're inclined to.
There are some hopefully not-hurtful (but very personal) things I'd say to you about my life that would help, I think. At one point, I was a lot like your kid, although I'm a not the same gender.
I have teens who I'm trying to raise well. I've also been dealing with college freshman and grad students for almost a decade.
What I'll say here:
It's ok to be a safety net to a degree.
But, please let him figure it out for himself.
It needs to happen. Really.
posted by lilywing13 at 12:23 AM on July 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
There are some hopefully not-hurtful (but very personal) things I'd say to you about my life that would help, I think. At one point, I was a lot like your kid, although I'm a not the same gender.
I have teens who I'm trying to raise well. I've also been dealing with college freshman and grad students for almost a decade.
What I'll say here:
It's ok to be a safety net to a degree.
But, please let him figure it out for himself.
It needs to happen. Really.
posted by lilywing13 at 12:23 AM on July 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
Twenty-two can be a really weird age... weirder for some than others. I know that I had an odd fatalist/cynic thing going on that informed a lot of what may have been bad choices... at least I did a lot of dumb, even dangerous, things, and my worldview/lifeview was rather absurdly jaded. In retrospect I feel that some of this might have had a lot to do with the "unfinished teen/young adult brain" problem (as well as maybe a faux sophistication rendered by "too much" reading). Let's just say that making good, healthy, long-term life decisions was not my forté.
Yet nevertheless, most of my odd choices eventually ended up really well for me. Strangely. I muddled into opportunities that were quite fabulous, actually. Though being smart, likeable and a hard/careful worker was a major part of that, my odd life and experiences placed me in a position to exert those energies in a way that a more conventional path probably would not have yielded.
I don't want to seem dismissive of your concerns, though, and while I shared many of your son's attitudes, I was very different in other aspects, working in one way or another since I was 14, and always seeking more independence... so I'm not trying to make any kind of mirror comparison, but I definitely entered a strange low-grade-depressive/fatalistic territory, especially between 19-23. I also quit school, and didn't seem to have a compass, couldn't see the point of doing most things that were expected, and often acted in ways that now seem self-destructive. I outgrew that, but I also rode that... and it took me someplace else. Ultimately, I recognize that whatever my drives were, they were not, in fact, actually self destructive, and in the end I have very few regrets despite making regrettable choices.
So, to me, if I were in your position, I would be most concerned with two things: a) determining as much as possible if the underlying problem is actually a self-destructive impulse or not (from this outsider's perspective, this doesn't seem to be the case), and b) focusing on making sure my kid was fully aware of the risk of being caught up in the nightmare that is the "war on drugs." I would be exerting all my energy and concern on efforts to drill through that ennui and complacency to drive this one lesson home: he doesn't want to end up in the prison system. The rest he may sort out for himself with whatever help or hands-off level of parental participation the two of you can agree or compromise on, but whatever influence capital I had, I would spend it on turning him away from dealing.
As for unorthodox ideas for employment/apprenticeship, etc., perhaps with his interest in music, he might try the roadie thing for a while. It's challenging, needs strength and endurance, is definitely unconventional, doesn't require driving, and if it's a good fit can lead to professional opportunities. (I have friends who started from the ground up who now do very well as sound engineers for concerts and also in the studio... and who also have a band themselves.) This site has a few general pointers, and this sounded reasonable to me: "Yes, but how do I break in? How do I actually get a gig as a roadie? Well, like any other job, experience matters. Concerts are a business just like anything else and businesses are always looking for experience first. And how can you gain valuable experience without having a roadie job? Volunteering is the most effective way. Check your local community theater to see if they need any help. You may start off by sweeping floors, but it’s a great way to break into the industry. Once you learn the ropes, you can move up from there. Starting out is not glamorous, but it’s a way to gain experience."
Also,here's a very old kuro5hin post, and here's a roadie forum that seems active and might be revealing about the realities of the work. That's just a bit of googling – there are surely more good resources out there.
posted by taz at 4:52 AM on July 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yet nevertheless, most of my odd choices eventually ended up really well for me. Strangely. I muddled into opportunities that were quite fabulous, actually. Though being smart, likeable and a hard/careful worker was a major part of that, my odd life and experiences placed me in a position to exert those energies in a way that a more conventional path probably would not have yielded.
I don't want to seem dismissive of your concerns, though, and while I shared many of your son's attitudes, I was very different in other aspects, working in one way or another since I was 14, and always seeking more independence... so I'm not trying to make any kind of mirror comparison, but I definitely entered a strange low-grade-depressive/fatalistic territory, especially between 19-23. I also quit school, and didn't seem to have a compass, couldn't see the point of doing most things that were expected, and often acted in ways that now seem self-destructive. I outgrew that, but I also rode that... and it took me someplace else. Ultimately, I recognize that whatever my drives were, they were not, in fact, actually self destructive, and in the end I have very few regrets despite making regrettable choices.
So, to me, if I were in your position, I would be most concerned with two things: a) determining as much as possible if the underlying problem is actually a self-destructive impulse or not (from this outsider's perspective, this doesn't seem to be the case), and b) focusing on making sure my kid was fully aware of the risk of being caught up in the nightmare that is the "war on drugs." I would be exerting all my energy and concern on efforts to drill through that ennui and complacency to drive this one lesson home: he doesn't want to end up in the prison system. The rest he may sort out for himself with whatever help or hands-off level of parental participation the two of you can agree or compromise on, but whatever influence capital I had, I would spend it on turning him away from dealing.
As for unorthodox ideas for employment/apprenticeship, etc., perhaps with his interest in music, he might try the roadie thing for a while. It's challenging, needs strength and endurance, is definitely unconventional, doesn't require driving, and if it's a good fit can lead to professional opportunities. (I have friends who started from the ground up who now do very well as sound engineers for concerts and also in the studio... and who also have a band themselves.) This site has a few general pointers, and this sounded reasonable to me: "Yes, but how do I break in? How do I actually get a gig as a roadie? Well, like any other job, experience matters. Concerts are a business just like anything else and businesses are always looking for experience first. And how can you gain valuable experience without having a roadie job? Volunteering is the most effective way. Check your local community theater to see if they need any help. You may start off by sweeping floors, but it’s a great way to break into the industry. Once you learn the ropes, you can move up from there. Starting out is not glamorous, but it’s a way to gain experience."
Also,here's a very old kuro5hin post, and here's a roadie forum that seems active and might be revealing about the realities of the work. That's just a bit of googling – there are surely more good resources out there.
posted by taz at 4:52 AM on July 9, 2012 [1 favorite]
After reading some more here, agreeing with everyone who says you have to stop seeing him as "special" as far as living in the world goes. My brother and I were "special" like that too, to our very loving parents who never really gave us the tools to take care of ourselves in the world. I'm bright but never had the confidence to seek anything but low level work, and my brother was bailed out financially his whole life by my parents culminating in his going through all their savings when they were elderly and disabled and trusted him to handle things. He also had addiction problems. He did not begin to grow up until he was in his 50s and my parents died. That is too long to wait, and not what you want for yourself or your son. Right now he is living the life of a criminal and bum, to be brutally frank, but he does not have to stay that way nor define his life that way unless he really wants to and you want to keep enabling him. He is very young, easier to stop this now than later after more people become collateral damage like the sweet girlfriend who might end up supporting him too.
Also the astrology "he's a Scorpio) bit does not seem especially relevant, my husband is a Scorpio and is the hardest working person I know, moved out of a bad home situation at 18 and never went back. One of my best friends is also a Scorpio and is very sweet but a gullible and flaky person who has had a very hard life because of bad choices. Another Scorpio friend is the opposite, practical, motivated, and very successful and ambitious. Same birth month, not a lot in common otherwise.
Don't rely too much on astrology to define anyone in a serious way, it is just one more excuse to see what you want to see, not what is really there, in my opinion.
posted by mermayd at 4:54 AM on July 9, 2012
Also the astrology "he's a Scorpio) bit does not seem especially relevant, my husband is a Scorpio and is the hardest working person I know, moved out of a bad home situation at 18 and never went back. One of my best friends is also a Scorpio and is very sweet but a gullible and flaky person who has had a very hard life because of bad choices. Another Scorpio friend is the opposite, practical, motivated, and very successful and ambitious. Same birth month, not a lot in common otherwise.
Don't rely too much on astrology to define anyone in a serious way, it is just one more excuse to see what you want to see, not what is really there, in my opinion.
posted by mermayd at 4:54 AM on July 9, 2012
Mod note: This is a followup from the asker.
For the record, if he is dealing he's doing it very small time and less so now that he's moved into his own place. If this were not the case he would not be concerned with how he's going to pay his rent and looking for a roommate even though he'd rather live alone.posted by cortex (staff) at 10:25 AM on July 9, 2012
I do NOT think he's special and therefore exempt from taking responsibility for his life. Whatever combination of traits he was born with, it's up to him to find a way to thrive in the world as it is. Giving himself excuses for failure won't make him happy. It will make him a miserable man who spends all his energy justifying his misery.
I agree I have made life too easy for him up to now. I know that my staying out of the "rescuer" role is crucial to his growing up. Mostly I'm doing that, but your comments have pointed out ways I am sliding into that position. For instance, if he does go overseas at some point I won't go with him. It's the times that are scary and unknown that force us to find our strength.
I'm going to give a lot of thought to all these comments and decide where I fall on the money for education, therapy, etc. decision.
The advice about pursuing my own life wholeheartedly and staying out of his is excellent. I've been doing that for the most part, believe it or not, but these posts have shown me ways that I'm still too involved.
Those of you who've offered off-site communication, thank you. I'll take you up on it soon.
Maybe Outward Bound, but--unless he comes up with this idea COMPLETELY on his own--do NOT send him or finance him with the ability to go overseas and volunteer. This statement:
One of them expressed an absolute horror, at one point, for the fact that they had to periodically take on people's irresponsible young adult kids for "volunteer trips" because such things were basically what ensured their continuing funding.
...is so, so, so true. I went on a Habitat for Humanity trip to another country in the late 90's. I had done a lot of work with HFH in the U.S. and was really looking forward to using my skills in another country. Unfortunately, this trip had 4 post-college grads whose parents had "funded" the trip to "get them on the right track." These kids (they were adults, but acted like kids) wanted to get drunk at night, sleep in, have sex with the locals, wander around, and "experience the culture" without pitching in and doing what we were actually there to do...build houses. The adult volunteers on the trip were disgusted with these people from Day #2 and most of the locals weren't all that keen on them either. Please don't put that onto an organization staffed by volunteers...those organizations do not exist to straighten your kids out.
I would suggest being there as a listening ear, but cut off the funding. Pronto. Now that I'm a parent, I understand where you are coming from. But no, stop, don't. You are a barrier right now, not a bridge, as difficult as it is for you to see that. Even though you don't describe your son as having addictions to drugs or alcohol, your description sets up all sorts of flags for me that say enabling and co-dependency. Check out CODA, check into your own therapist, bite the bullet and let him stumble. It will SUCK to let this happen. But the alternative, for him, is not great either.
The world has always been rough. This is not new. We all need to find our own way, eventually.
posted by jeanmari at 1:57 PM on July 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
One of them expressed an absolute horror, at one point, for the fact that they had to periodically take on people's irresponsible young adult kids for "volunteer trips" because such things were basically what ensured their continuing funding.
...is so, so, so true. I went on a Habitat for Humanity trip to another country in the late 90's. I had done a lot of work with HFH in the U.S. and was really looking forward to using my skills in another country. Unfortunately, this trip had 4 post-college grads whose parents had "funded" the trip to "get them on the right track." These kids (they were adults, but acted like kids) wanted to get drunk at night, sleep in, have sex with the locals, wander around, and "experience the culture" without pitching in and doing what we were actually there to do...build houses. The adult volunteers on the trip were disgusted with these people from Day #2 and most of the locals weren't all that keen on them either. Please don't put that onto an organization staffed by volunteers...those organizations do not exist to straighten your kids out.
I would suggest being there as a listening ear, but cut off the funding. Pronto. Now that I'm a parent, I understand where you are coming from. But no, stop, don't. You are a barrier right now, not a bridge, as difficult as it is for you to see that. Even though you don't describe your son as having addictions to drugs or alcohol, your description sets up all sorts of flags for me that say enabling and co-dependency. Check out CODA, check into your own therapist, bite the bullet and let him stumble. It will SUCK to let this happen. But the alternative, for him, is not great either.
The world has always been rough. This is not new. We all need to find our own way, eventually.
posted by jeanmari at 1:57 PM on July 9, 2012 [3 favorites]
Trail-building as a job is better than outward bound in some ways because you make money rather than paying out, for a similar experience. but it's a job, so timing is harder to work, and you have to do applications, commit to a longer stint, etc.
look up Rocky Mountain Youth Corps in Colorado. There are similar org's in almost every state.
posted by victory_laser at 1:27 AM on July 10, 2012
look up Rocky Mountain Youth Corps in Colorado. There are similar org's in almost every state.
posted by victory_laser at 1:27 AM on July 10, 2012
Does he have friends? This is the sort of situation where the right friends can really make a big difference; people he can talk to, who'd encourage him, who'd talk straight with him. One way to do that is talking online, if he has suitable interests-- there are a lot of tight-knit communities. Another way is probably through music-- not starting a band, but joining in at festivals, for example. If he can't afford to go to nearby events, here's where you could help him. There's no rushing 'purpose'-- but exposure can help. Most people (even with ADD) like going on fun outings. Here's where he can work to learn to drive or where you can give him the opportunity to pay you back monthly for a car loan. Mobility is pretty important. Being in a big city of any kind-- away from you-- may also help.
One thing that may work is setting him up temporarily in a big city-- with the intention to cut off support entirely at a certain date. Like, pay for rent for three months in Portland, say, and then that's it. There may be more motivation to get out there and explore if he was somewhere totally new and different/exciting. Just being in a certain atmosphere gets those motivational juices flowing sometimes. Exploring or 'conquering' new environments is a strong instinct for us throw-back types. Somewhere with a strong folk/casual music scene (like, on the level of homeless kids playing guitar) like the Pacific Northwest would be cool.
I too am available if you'd like to MeMail me-- I'd be his friend if I could and if I was 10 years younger, but as it is, I can share some more perspective from the pov of an ADD Cancer-type with similar gifts and issues, and who had/has a mom with similar urges to support but challenge. In the end, it took me until my late 20s to really figure out what I wanted to do enough to get my act together, and even then, y'know, not so easy. Friends and artistic communities have meant the world to me in the meantime. I've also really benefited from big changes of scene, though I didn't take advantage of them to the greatest extent-- it kept my head above water. Staying in a small comfortable place really encourages the 'hunker down' instinct, and doesn't do much to help the laziness, either. Being around people bustling in coffeeshops, new bands every week, interesting new folks, and lots of energy-- all of that helps. I don't think volunteering would help, in that I doubt he'd be motivated enough to really do it. It has to be something with an intrinsic reward for him, like music or another interest that binds him to people with support and no pressure. The people I've met who got me and had long conversations with me did the most to build my confidence and make me believe in myself. YMMV.
posted by reenka at 1:07 PM on July 12, 2012 [1 favorite]
One thing that may work is setting him up temporarily in a big city-- with the intention to cut off support entirely at a certain date. Like, pay for rent for three months in Portland, say, and then that's it. There may be more motivation to get out there and explore if he was somewhere totally new and different/exciting. Just being in a certain atmosphere gets those motivational juices flowing sometimes. Exploring or 'conquering' new environments is a strong instinct for us throw-back types. Somewhere with a strong folk/casual music scene (like, on the level of homeless kids playing guitar) like the Pacific Northwest would be cool.
I too am available if you'd like to MeMail me-- I'd be his friend if I could and if I was 10 years younger, but as it is, I can share some more perspective from the pov of an ADD Cancer-type with similar gifts and issues, and who had/has a mom with similar urges to support but challenge. In the end, it took me until my late 20s to really figure out what I wanted to do enough to get my act together, and even then, y'know, not so easy. Friends and artistic communities have meant the world to me in the meantime. I've also really benefited from big changes of scene, though I didn't take advantage of them to the greatest extent-- it kept my head above water. Staying in a small comfortable place really encourages the 'hunker down' instinct, and doesn't do much to help the laziness, either. Being around people bustling in coffeeshops, new bands every week, interesting new folks, and lots of energy-- all of that helps. I don't think volunteering would help, in that I doubt he'd be motivated enough to really do it. It has to be something with an intrinsic reward for him, like music or another interest that binds him to people with support and no pressure. The people I've met who got me and had long conversations with me did the most to build my confidence and make me believe in myself. YMMV.
posted by reenka at 1:07 PM on July 12, 2012 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by empath at 11:32 PM on July 7, 2012 [1 favorite]