On my honor, I will try...
June 30, 2012 12:26 PM Subscribe
Disruptive girl driving others out of my Girl Scout troop. What are my options?
My Girl Scout troop has been together four years. Girls have come and gone; currently there are 9 members.
The problem is "Cindy". Cindy is a year older than the rest of the girls - she joined early on because grades K-1 are the same program level and our meetings were more convenient. She has mental/emotional problems and exhibits a lot of angry, disruptive behavior.
Examples:
Cindy's behavior has mellowed some over the years, with age and medication adjustments (she is on some pretty heavy psychotropic drugs). But "mellowed" here means fewer hysterical tantrums replaced by more defiant rudeness.
To a certain extent I empathize with her. As a kid, I could also be overexcitable and disruptive. She probably needs Girl Scouts more than the others, as a positive group socializing experience. However, two of my most committed girls (charter kindergarten members, one whose mother went through Seniors and earned her Gold Award as a girl) have left the troop specifically because they don't want to be around Cindy anymore. The others are clearly frustrated and mystified by Cindy's behavior, and will ask me "why does she act like that?" or "where is she going?"
To be honest, I can't take anymore. I'm not a teacher or psychologist and don't have the training to manage her behavior. I feel like I had my chance to transfer Cindy out of the troop after the first year, since as a 2nd grader she should have gone on to Brownies, and now I am stuck. At the end of next year she will go on to middle school, and I am frankly hoping she will choose to leave the troop then. Her mom though is very committed to having her participate, making sure she earns every badge, etc.
So I am torn. I don't want to sacrifice the troop experience of the others (who can get wild too, but are overall good kids who want to be there) for Cindy, who I cannot control or force to participate. But there is no way to transfer her to another troop that doesn't come down to "look, after four years I am not willing to deal with your kid anymore, she can't continue with us". That won't be received well whether it comes directly from me or I kick it up the food chain to our area manager or membership specialist.
Thoughts? Analysis? Am I just a jerk for letting a 10-year-old get to me? Thanks.
My Girl Scout troop has been together four years. Girls have come and gone; currently there are 9 members.
The problem is "Cindy". Cindy is a year older than the rest of the girls - she joined early on because grades K-1 are the same program level and our meetings were more convenient. She has mental/emotional problems and exhibits a lot of angry, disruptive behavior.
Examples:
- The first meeting Cindy came to included our investiture ceremony, and she threw a fit (really, fall-down screaming) because the other girls were getting things and she was not.
- She wanders off during trips/events, and when I try to bring her back, will flounce off (again, literally - she is quite dramatic) or scream at me "I hate you!"
- During a recent large group activity, some of the other girls criticized what Cindy was doing - not meanly, they were problem-solving and her idea wasn't working out. She screamed and stomped off to the other end of the park. Her mother tried to bring her back, but Cindy ignored her and kept going.
Cindy's behavior has mellowed some over the years, with age and medication adjustments (she is on some pretty heavy psychotropic drugs). But "mellowed" here means fewer hysterical tantrums replaced by more defiant rudeness.
To a certain extent I empathize with her. As a kid, I could also be overexcitable and disruptive. She probably needs Girl Scouts more than the others, as a positive group socializing experience. However, two of my most committed girls (charter kindergarten members, one whose mother went through Seniors and earned her Gold Award as a girl) have left the troop specifically because they don't want to be around Cindy anymore. The others are clearly frustrated and mystified by Cindy's behavior, and will ask me "why does she act like that?" or "where is she going?"
To be honest, I can't take anymore. I'm not a teacher or psychologist and don't have the training to manage her behavior. I feel like I had my chance to transfer Cindy out of the troop after the first year, since as a 2nd grader she should have gone on to Brownies, and now I am stuck. At the end of next year she will go on to middle school, and I am frankly hoping she will choose to leave the troop then. Her mom though is very committed to having her participate, making sure she earns every badge, etc.
So I am torn. I don't want to sacrifice the troop experience of the others (who can get wild too, but are overall good kids who want to be there) for Cindy, who I cannot control or force to participate. But there is no way to transfer her to another troop that doesn't come down to "look, after four years I am not willing to deal with your kid anymore, she can't continue with us". That won't be received well whether it comes directly from me or I kick it up the food chain to our area manager or membership specialist.
Thoughts? Analysis? Am I just a jerk for letting a 10-year-old get to me? Thanks.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Independent of your reactions, the other girls don't want to be around Cindy and it's hard to feel they're unreasonable. Unfortunate as it may be, the only reasonable solution appears to be telling Cindy's mom that her daughter is no longer able to participate.
By the way, I'm not paranoid, one to buy into hype and hysteria, but if I was the parent of a girl in this group, the prospect of Cindy getting violent would not strike me as preposterous.
posted by ambient2 at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2012 [5 favorites]
By the way, I'm not paranoid, one to buy into hype and hysteria, but if I was the parent of a girl in this group, the prospect of Cindy getting violent would not strike me as preposterous.
posted by ambient2 at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2012 [5 favorites]
"We've enjoyed having Cindy as a member but, I'm sorry, I don't think that girl scouts is a good fit for Cindy right now. We would love to have her as part of our troop as soon as she has the maturity to be part of our troop."
Kind, clear and firm. You aren't her social worker, psychologist, or therapist. She needs more help than you or girl scouts can currently provide.
posted by JimmyJames at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2012 [20 favorites]
Kind, clear and firm. You aren't her social worker, psychologist, or therapist. She needs more help than you or girl scouts can currently provide.
posted by JimmyJames at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2012 [20 favorites]
So, as I often mention, I volunteer (and study) at a non-profit karate school that has kids from age 4 on up. We have very similar problems sometimes - not often, but regularly. And it causes us similar distress, but ultimately we have to come down on the practical side, because we are a very small school staffed by volunteers, and our resources are limited.
So what will happen is first of all, we have very clear behavior boundaries (no non-consensual touching (or play fighting outside the context of a drill,) listen when the instructor is talking, follow instructions to the best of your ability.) When a kid crosses those boundaries, they get corrected, first, and if it happens again the have to sit out until they can participate within the rules. If this happens in more than one or two classes, we have a talk with the parent about the feasibility of the kid staying in the program. And if things don't change, we kick them out.
Because while our mission is to teach everyone to be able to defend themselves, not everyone is ready for the lesson at any given point. This is especially true of kids, who may or may not be there because they actually want to be (vs their parents wanting them to stick it out.) And if someone is preventing other people from learning, our duty is pretty clearly to the people who choose to participate within the rules.
Incidentally, most of the problem-behavior kids, when pressed, admit they just really don't want to be there. Their parents aren't always super willing to hear that, which is often part of the problem. (Some of them have what appear to be actual behavioral issues in the larger sense, but those two populations often overlap a LOT.)
So yeah - kick it up the chain for sure, because you need to have backup on this, but Cindy needs to not be there if she can't participate properly. It sucks for everybody, (especially for her parents, who are probably desperate to find her activities that won't kick her out) but you have to look out for the rest of your troop. If I was a ten-year-old, I'd be fucking terrified of a kid who pitched tantrums, hit people, and stormed off at the slightest provocation. That's not a good environment for them.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:49 PM on June 30, 2012 [21 favorites]
So what will happen is first of all, we have very clear behavior boundaries (no non-consensual touching (or play fighting outside the context of a drill,) listen when the instructor is talking, follow instructions to the best of your ability.) When a kid crosses those boundaries, they get corrected, first, and if it happens again the have to sit out until they can participate within the rules. If this happens in more than one or two classes, we have a talk with the parent about the feasibility of the kid staying in the program. And if things don't change, we kick them out.
Because while our mission is to teach everyone to be able to defend themselves, not everyone is ready for the lesson at any given point. This is especially true of kids, who may or may not be there because they actually want to be (vs their parents wanting them to stick it out.) And if someone is preventing other people from learning, our duty is pretty clearly to the people who choose to participate within the rules.
Incidentally, most of the problem-behavior kids, when pressed, admit they just really don't want to be there. Their parents aren't always super willing to hear that, which is often part of the problem. (Some of them have what appear to be actual behavioral issues in the larger sense, but those two populations often overlap a LOT.)
So yeah - kick it up the chain for sure, because you need to have backup on this, but Cindy needs to not be there if she can't participate properly. It sucks for everybody, (especially for her parents, who are probably desperate to find her activities that won't kick her out) but you have to look out for the rest of your troop. If I was a ten-year-old, I'd be fucking terrified of a kid who pitched tantrums, hit people, and stormed off at the slightest provocation. That's not a good environment for them.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:49 PM on June 30, 2012 [21 favorites]
Is she receiving special services at her school? Is there someone who *is* trained whom you could reach out to (or who could reach out to you)? Is there someone on the council level who takes responsibility for girls with special needs? Is there any support for disability services?
You describe this child as disruptive, but her behavior sounds like there's some kind of social delay going on (or something else troubling). You might feel less conflicted if you think in terms of "getting her the help she needs to stay in the troop."
You should also think in terms of setting firm guidelines about the kind of behavior necessary to *stay* in the troop. No harassing other girls, no wandering off during field trips, no screaming at troop leaders. I wouldn't be surprised if such guidelines already exist -- the GSA is a huge organization, you can't be the first person to need to explicitly express "we expect civility and age-appropriate responsibility."
Turning to your regional contacts isn't just about "kicking it upstairs"; it's also about drawing on what should be large organizational resources for the management of a not-terribly-unusual problem.
posted by endless_forms at 12:49 PM on June 30, 2012 [12 favorites]
You describe this child as disruptive, but her behavior sounds like there's some kind of social delay going on (or something else troubling). You might feel less conflicted if you think in terms of "getting her the help she needs to stay in the troop."
You should also think in terms of setting firm guidelines about the kind of behavior necessary to *stay* in the troop. No harassing other girls, no wandering off during field trips, no screaming at troop leaders. I wouldn't be surprised if such guidelines already exist -- the GSA is a huge organization, you can't be the first person to need to explicitly express "we expect civility and age-appropriate responsibility."
Turning to your regional contacts isn't just about "kicking it upstairs"; it's also about drawing on what should be large organizational resources for the management of a not-terribly-unusual problem.
posted by endless_forms at 12:49 PM on June 30, 2012 [12 favorites]
Is Cindy's mom open to feedback? If so, maybe you could approach her privately with your concern, pretty much as you've worded it above: Other kids are leaving the troop because of Cindy. At this rate, there will be no troop left for Cindy, if something isn't done now. Ask her if there is someone else in Cindy's life (dad?, older sibling?, a favorite aide from school*?) who can better control Cindy in this environment.
It's totally within your rights to bump this up, and ask someone higher than you in the GS food chain to either join you at this meeting, or take it on herself.
It's also totally within your rights to ask Cindy's mom to take her out of Scouts for a while, or at least out your troop, until Cindy can act appropriately.
On preview, endless_forms is saying what I'm trying to say, only better. :-)
*I'm assuming Cindy has an IEP at school, although you aren't privy to that info as a GS leader.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 12:54 PM on June 30, 2012
It's totally within your rights to bump this up, and ask someone higher than you in the GS food chain to either join you at this meeting, or take it on herself.
It's also totally within your rights to ask Cindy's mom to take her out of Scouts for a while, or at least out your troop, until Cindy can act appropriately.
On preview, endless_forms is saying what I'm trying to say, only better. :-)
*I'm assuming Cindy has an IEP at school, although you aren't privy to that info as a GS leader.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 12:54 PM on June 30, 2012
Out of curiosity, have you sat down in the past with Cindy and her mother and told Cindy that she needs to stop the tantrums and meltdowns or she will have to leave the troop? Perhaps Cindy is less responsible for herself than other girls her age would be, but it doesn't sound as if she has been made to understand that her behavior has consequences, and it seems as though she is old enough to grasp that.
In any case, the troop does not exist for Cindy's treatment or socialization. It's not fair to the other children. In fact, giving her fair warning before making her leave the troop might be more helpful to her in the long run than sending her the message that people will simply tolerate her behavior because they feel sorry for her. It won't help her if she is allowed to use her illness as a crutch.
posted by tully_monster at 12:54 PM on June 30, 2012 [7 favorites]
In any case, the troop does not exist for Cindy's treatment or socialization. It's not fair to the other children. In fact, giving her fair warning before making her leave the troop might be more helpful to her in the long run than sending her the message that people will simply tolerate her behavior because they feel sorry for her. It won't help her if she is allowed to use her illness as a crutch.
posted by tully_monster at 12:54 PM on June 30, 2012 [7 favorites]
When I was in girl scouts, there was one mom who couldn't behave properly around kids and the troop broke into two troops: one with parents who didn't like this mom and were willing to step up and take over the jobs she had been doing and a smaller one with parents who didn't care as much. It sounds like this is about to happen with your troop as well, and you are going to be left behind, if you don't do something about this troubled kid.
Age 10 is old enough that you can set fairly high standards for behavior in an extra curricular activity and send kids, even special needs kids, home early if they can't live up to those standards. If Cindy's mom is there at the meetings already, it sounds like she might be willing to work with you. Make a set of rules and consequences (that will apply to everybody) that end with leaving the meeting after a certain number of infractions. That way Cindy (or another girl who might be having an out-of-character meltdown) can't ruin the meeting for the rest of the troop. Field trips are a privledge for girls who can behave properly at meetings. Cindy sounds like a safety hazard and a liability that the troop doesn't need. You're a volunteer and you don't have the training you need to properly deal with a troubled, antisocial scout. If her mom can't get Cindy in line, kick her out.
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 12:55 PM on June 30, 2012 [3 favorites]
Age 10 is old enough that you can set fairly high standards for behavior in an extra curricular activity and send kids, even special needs kids, home early if they can't live up to those standards. If Cindy's mom is there at the meetings already, it sounds like she might be willing to work with you. Make a set of rules and consequences (that will apply to everybody) that end with leaving the meeting after a certain number of infractions. That way Cindy (or another girl who might be having an out-of-character meltdown) can't ruin the meeting for the rest of the troop. Field trips are a privledge for girls who can behave properly at meetings. Cindy sounds like a safety hazard and a liability that the troop doesn't need. You're a volunteer and you don't have the training you need to properly deal with a troubled, antisocial scout. If her mom can't get Cindy in line, kick her out.
posted by martinX's bellbottoms at 12:55 PM on June 30, 2012 [3 favorites]
I'm in the UK, and I know of children who attend Girl Guides/Scouts with a support worker because they need that extra one to one to help them in that situation (both physical disabilities and intellectual/social-communication things). Kicking it up the food chain is exactly the right thing to do here. I strongly suspect that she has extra help of this kind in school - she needs that extra help in out of school activities as well. In fact, if her difficulties are social in nature, then she needs it more in those settings than in school!
Think of it this way: you wouldn't think twice about going to your regional superiors if a child with a wheelchair wanted to join and you needed funding to get ramps and other accessibility aids put in to make the experience do-able for her. This child needs similar adaptations for her disability.
And yes, you do need to think of the whole troop and not just one person. It may be a case of her taking a hiatus from the troop while something like the above can be arranged.
posted by Coobeastie at 12:56 PM on June 30, 2012 [9 favorites]
Think of it this way: you wouldn't think twice about going to your regional superiors if a child with a wheelchair wanted to join and you needed funding to get ramps and other accessibility aids put in to make the experience do-able for her. This child needs similar adaptations for her disability.
And yes, you do need to think of the whole troop and not just one person. It may be a case of her taking a hiatus from the troop while something like the above can be arranged.
posted by Coobeastie at 12:56 PM on June 30, 2012 [9 favorites]
Not that you shouldn't kick her out, but if she does wind up staying for a while:
The other kids, especially the dedicated, committed types, may find Cindy's behavior less frustrating if it becomes an explicit problem they can help work on. What would experts advise is the best kind of peer interactional feedback for a kid like Cindy to get?
posted by feral_goldfish at 1:03 PM on June 30, 2012
The other kids, especially the dedicated, committed types, may find Cindy's behavior less frustrating if it becomes an explicit problem they can help work on. What would experts advise is the best kind of peer interactional feedback for a kid like Cindy to get?
posted by feral_goldfish at 1:03 PM on June 30, 2012
Coobeastie: "I'm in the UK, and I know of children who attend Girl Guides/Scouts with a support worker because they need that extra one to one to help them in that situation (both physical disabilities and intellectual/social-communication things)."
Yes! Maybe Cindy thinks of Scouts like an extension of home, because her mom is there. If Cindy had an official aide, like she [most likely] does in school, maybe it would help reinforce the idea that Scouts is more like school than home, in that we don't act disruptively, we speak nicely, etc., etc.
Even typical kids have trouble with this idea. Since extracurricular activities are little looser in general, it's easy to forget that we still have to abide by some rules, just like in school. I know my own kid started acting up when I became a troop leader, until we had a little come-to-Jesus moment about respecting your mom because she brought you into this world and she can take you out...
posted by SuperSquirrel at 1:17 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
Yes! Maybe Cindy thinks of Scouts like an extension of home, because her mom is there. If Cindy had an official aide, like she [most likely] does in school, maybe it would help reinforce the idea that Scouts is more like school than home, in that we don't act disruptively, we speak nicely, etc., etc.
Even typical kids have trouble with this idea. Since extracurricular activities are little looser in general, it's easy to forget that we still have to abide by some rules, just like in school. I know my own kid started acting up when I became a troop leader, until we had a little come-to-Jesus moment about respecting your mom because she brought you into this world and she can take you out...
posted by SuperSquirrel at 1:17 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
I wonder if Cindy would be better behaved without her mom there? It's a tough situation. Clearly Cindy has problems that medication is addressing. I'm sure her mom knows what kind of kid Cindy is, and is greatful to have the Girl Scouts as an extra curriculur activity. I want to go against the majority and say you should try to have a little bit more compassion. As you've said, Cindy probably *needs* this more than the other girls do.
Also, she is old enough to be scolded for bad behavior. Instead of ignoring her and talking behind her back, have you tried a firm "hey, knock it off, you're being rude!". It works wonders with kids, and now a days people are too scared to say it!
Try harder with her, it may help. You are a strong person who is in the position to help little girls become young ladies! It's not an easy job at all, but you can do it.
posted by katypickle at 1:33 PM on June 30, 2012
Also, she is old enough to be scolded for bad behavior. Instead of ignoring her and talking behind her back, have you tried a firm "hey, knock it off, you're being rude!". It works wonders with kids, and now a days people are too scared to say it!
Try harder with her, it may help. You are a strong person who is in the position to help little girls become young ladies! It's not an easy job at all, but you can do it.
posted by katypickle at 1:33 PM on June 30, 2012
Nthing treating this manner procedurally. It seems that she is not getting the help she needs, and it might be wise to document this fact and, as best you can, remedy that fact. I am troubled by your description of literal flouncing because it seems indicative of your (and perhaps other members of the group) feelings towards this girl, rather than an objective description of her behavior. I mention this because if she is picking up on this resentment, it may be exacerbating the problem.
I come at it from the perspective of a once-kid with a mental disability who was bullied. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, but you don't want people to even allege this is happening, given your position, right? You can make this much less emotionally charged is to refer, refer, refer to supervisors and document instances of disruptive behavior.
posted by IwishIwasFordMaddoxFord at 2:25 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
I come at it from the perspective of a once-kid with a mental disability who was bullied. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, but you don't want people to even allege this is happening, given your position, right? You can make this much less emotionally charged is to refer, refer, refer to supervisors and document instances of disruptive behavior.
posted by IwishIwasFordMaddoxFord at 2:25 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's all very well to say that Cindy might need the Scouts more than the other kids do and that the OP should try to have more compassion for Cindy; the problem is that Cindy is making the rest of the kids unhappy, to the extent that Cindy's tantrums are causing the other girls to vote with their feet by leaving the troop entirely.
This is not something the OP caused, nor is leaving something she can prevent: she cannot force all of the other children to remain in the troop just because belonging to a Girl Scout troop might be good for Cindy! At this point, it sounds like the OP is spending far too much time at meetings concentrating on Cindy and her antisocial behaviors to the detriment of all those other girls, and something has to give --- otherwise, the "troop" will consist of nobody but Cindy, her mother, and the OP.
Compassion for Cindy is all well and good, but how about a little compassion for the rest of the kids? They deserve to get something more out of their GS membership than being forced to sit and watch while Cindy has yet another screaming tantrum.
posted by easily confused at 2:26 PM on June 30, 2012 [5 favorites]
This is not something the OP caused, nor is leaving something she can prevent: she cannot force all of the other children to remain in the troop just because belonging to a Girl Scout troop might be good for Cindy! At this point, it sounds like the OP is spending far too much time at meetings concentrating on Cindy and her antisocial behaviors to the detriment of all those other girls, and something has to give --- otherwise, the "troop" will consist of nobody but Cindy, her mother, and the OP.
Compassion for Cindy is all well and good, but how about a little compassion for the rest of the kids? They deserve to get something more out of their GS membership than being forced to sit and watch while Cindy has yet another screaming tantrum.
posted by easily confused at 2:26 PM on June 30, 2012 [5 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thanks for the replies so far.posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 2:50 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
Is she receiving special services at her school?
I assume she has an IEP. Would it be acceptable to ask about that, and what steps/methods her teachers have found helpful in working with her?
Don't know if the council has anyone trained/designated to work with special needs, but I can look into that.
Out of curiosity, have you sat down in the past with Cindy and her mother...?
No, admittedly out of reluctance to initiate an unpleasant confrontation. I was thinking about trying to meet with her mom, our service unit manager (volunteer), and possibly our membership specialist (council employee) to discuss options. It would probably be better to talk to mom privately first though so she doesn't feel ganged up on.
I wonder if Cindy would be better behaved without her mom there?
She absolutely is. On several occasions she has been accompanied by a trained aide instead. She disrespects them also, but less so than her mom. I would like to request that an aide always accompany her, but that seems like it would be insulting to the mom.
I am troubled by your description of literal flouncing
I really did mean that as an objective description. She spins on one heel, gives a "hmmph!", and stalks off.
I can think of a couple of things to try that might help her to clearly understand your expectations and to make it better for the other girls.
1. Sit down with mother and daughter and list your expectations: she does what she is asked without a tantrum or rude comment; she helps to pack up at the end of a session; she goes with her mother when it's time to go (and add whatever specific behaviours you want to see). Then tell her that if she doesn't follow those expectations, she goes home immediately. Mum has to be on board and willing to follow through - no "I'll give you one more chance" - just go home straight away. If she truly enjoys Girl Scouts, being sent home and missing out on the fun will give her an incentive to modify her behaviour. You need to be REALLY clear about what is acceptable and what isn't, so she knows what she needs to do. She will probably be hyper-aware of fairness and if she's sent home for something she didn't expect, it won't work. (e.g. if your boundary for rudeness is swearing, but then you send her home for saying "Shut up," it isn't within her realm of unacceptable behaviour and therefore unfair.) All this means the rest of the Scouts can carry on, knowing that any disruption will be dealt with quickly and they won't miss out.
2. She may need help with transitioning between activities to stay relatively calm - so when it's time to pack up to leave, she isn't prepared for that and throws a tantrum or storms off. A couple of things you can try are putting the schedule for the session on display somewhere so that she or her mother can check it and see that Activity A is almost finished, so soon we will be sitting down for a story, and then it will be time to pack up. Also just saying to her, 10 minutes before the end, "Hey Cindy, we're almost finished here. After this everyone will be getting ready to head home." Same again five minutes from the end. She's had time to mentally prepare herself for the end of the session so it might be easier for you and Mum (and the rest of the troop) to calmly wind down.
Another thing: I don't know how frequent your outings are, but I would say to Cindy and Mum that the same rules apply as at meetings - first infringement and she goes home. Also make it clear that if she can't behave on outings where there are many more safety issues than indoors, then she won't be able to come to events that are outside normal Girl Scout meetings. Because it's her safety, your safety and the safety of the rest of the troop that are affected. Even with Mum there, because she's obviously not effective at managing the risks to her daughter's safety.
posted by tracicle at 2:51 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
1. Sit down with mother and daughter and list your expectations: she does what she is asked without a tantrum or rude comment; she helps to pack up at the end of a session; she goes with her mother when it's time to go (and add whatever specific behaviours you want to see). Then tell her that if she doesn't follow those expectations, she goes home immediately. Mum has to be on board and willing to follow through - no "I'll give you one more chance" - just go home straight away. If she truly enjoys Girl Scouts, being sent home and missing out on the fun will give her an incentive to modify her behaviour. You need to be REALLY clear about what is acceptable and what isn't, so she knows what she needs to do. She will probably be hyper-aware of fairness and if she's sent home for something she didn't expect, it won't work. (e.g. if your boundary for rudeness is swearing, but then you send her home for saying "Shut up," it isn't within her realm of unacceptable behaviour and therefore unfair.) All this means the rest of the Scouts can carry on, knowing that any disruption will be dealt with quickly and they won't miss out.
2. She may need help with transitioning between activities to stay relatively calm - so when it's time to pack up to leave, she isn't prepared for that and throws a tantrum or storms off. A couple of things you can try are putting the schedule for the session on display somewhere so that she or her mother can check it and see that Activity A is almost finished, so soon we will be sitting down for a story, and then it will be time to pack up. Also just saying to her, 10 minutes before the end, "Hey Cindy, we're almost finished here. After this everyone will be getting ready to head home." Same again five minutes from the end. She's had time to mentally prepare herself for the end of the session so it might be easier for you and Mum (and the rest of the troop) to calmly wind down.
Another thing: I don't know how frequent your outings are, but I would say to Cindy and Mum that the same rules apply as at meetings - first infringement and she goes home. Also make it clear that if she can't behave on outings where there are many more safety issues than indoors, then she won't be able to come to events that are outside normal Girl Scout meetings. Because it's her safety, your safety and the safety of the rest of the troop that are affected. Even with Mum there, because she's obviously not effective at managing the risks to her daughter's safety.
posted by tracicle at 2:51 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
One of the things people sometimes ask about Toastmasters is whether it'll help them with their social anxiety. What I say is "maybe - but it's not a therapeutic program." The same thing goes with Girl Scouts; it might or might not help a kid with social functioning problems, but it's not a therapeutic program. To put it bluntly, you are not responsible for fixing Cindy. You are responsible for making sure the troop functions.
I suggest you confer with your higher-ups, and then present it to the mom like this: We can't have Cindy disrupting things anymore. How are you going to solve this conundrum, and, within reason, what can we do to help you? Laying out "always having the aide there" as a possibility is totally reasonable.
posted by SMPA at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2012 [8 favorites]
I suggest you confer with your higher-ups, and then present it to the mom like this: We can't have Cindy disrupting things anymore. How are you going to solve this conundrum, and, within reason, what can we do to help you? Laying out "always having the aide there" as a possibility is totally reasonable.
posted by SMPA at 2:53 PM on June 30, 2012 [8 favorites]
I assume she has an IEP. Would it be acceptable to ask about that, and what steps/methods her teachers have found helpful in working with her?
I would ask the latter, without specifically referencing an IEP. It doesn't matter if she has official paperwork or a diagnosis or not. What you need are the steps/methods that work.
However, like has been mentioned, it's not expected that you have the training to execute the methods that work for teachers who would presumably have had professional training in dealing with kids with special needs. Cindy's mother really should be providing you with more help with this.
On several occasions she has been accompanied by a trained aide instead. She disrespects them also, but less so than her mom. I would like to request that an aide always accompany her, but that seems like it would be insulting to the mom.
I wouldn't worry about this too much. As long as you approach the conversation compassionately and without judgment (which seems evident from your writing that you would), I think you'll do ok.
I think you're doing a good thing by considering all that can be done in this unfortunate situation. Even if things don't work out for Cindy in your troop, at least you will know you tried to accommodate her as best you can. Your actions will be a good example for the other girls in your troop.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 3:21 PM on June 30, 2012
I would ask the latter, without specifically referencing an IEP. It doesn't matter if she has official paperwork or a diagnosis or not. What you need are the steps/methods that work.
However, like has been mentioned, it's not expected that you have the training to execute the methods that work for teachers who would presumably have had professional training in dealing with kids with special needs. Cindy's mother really should be providing you with more help with this.
On several occasions she has been accompanied by a trained aide instead. She disrespects them also, but less so than her mom. I would like to request that an aide always accompany her, but that seems like it would be insulting to the mom.
I wouldn't worry about this too much. As long as you approach the conversation compassionately and without judgment (which seems evident from your writing that you would), I think you'll do ok.
I think you're doing a good thing by considering all that can be done in this unfortunate situation. Even if things don't work out for Cindy in your troop, at least you will know you tried to accommodate her as best you can. Your actions will be a good example for the other girls in your troop.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 3:21 PM on June 30, 2012
> I would like to request that an aide always accompany her, but that seems like it would be insulting to the mom.
Oh, God, no, it wouldn't be, unless the mother is completely clueless -- and since she's staying to all the meetings it sounds like she isn't. It's not at all unusual for kids with autism or Aspergers (which I can diagnose through the computer screen and have decided Cindy has) to be at their worst with their parents. Just tell her that Cindy does better when the aide is there.
I would ask the mom what you can do to get Cindy the support she needs so she can participate: does she need to bring her aide with her? If so, how can that be arranged? Will the school district, the troop, or the organization pay for the aide?
Are there particular activities that Cindy finds overstimulating, and if so could she take a break during them? What activities does she most enjoy?
Educate the other girls. If Cindy does have a disability her mother is willing to discuss, it might help to have a time -- when Cindy isn't there, perhaps -- to have someone who knows what they're talking about explain things to them. Kicking her out sends an odd message to the other girls about how people with disabilities should be treated.
There should be support for you in the larger organization. You're not the first person to have faced this.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:52 PM on June 30, 2012 [8 favorites]
Oh, God, no, it wouldn't be, unless the mother is completely clueless -- and since she's staying to all the meetings it sounds like she isn't. It's not at all unusual for kids with autism or Aspergers (which I can diagnose through the computer screen and have decided Cindy has) to be at their worst with their parents. Just tell her that Cindy does better when the aide is there.
I would ask the mom what you can do to get Cindy the support she needs so she can participate: does she need to bring her aide with her? If so, how can that be arranged? Will the school district, the troop, or the organization pay for the aide?
Are there particular activities that Cindy finds overstimulating, and if so could she take a break during them? What activities does she most enjoy?
Educate the other girls. If Cindy does have a disability her mother is willing to discuss, it might help to have a time -- when Cindy isn't there, perhaps -- to have someone who knows what they're talking about explain things to them. Kicking her out sends an odd message to the other girls about how people with disabilities should be treated.
There should be support for you in the larger organization. You're not the first person to have faced this.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:52 PM on June 30, 2012 [8 favorites]
I'm not a teacher or an aide, just the parent of a normal, well behaved child, so I'll present that point of view.
Even if Cindy's misbehavior is the result of a disability rather than just nastiness, it's not really within your abilities or responsibility to provide special ed; and it definitely isn't the other girls (1st and 2nd graders'??) job to accommodate whatever Cindy's problem is, at the cost to themselves of an enjoyable after school activity. Every one of those activities has opportunity costs. If they're at scouts, they're not at ballet class or resting or doing homework. If their mom is driving them to Scouts, she isn't getting other things done that she'd like to with the limited resources of her day. If Cindy is ruining Scouts for the other girls, I just can't fathom why she's allowed to continue to do it.
I would suggest running it up the ladder, just to cover your ass and make sure whatever authority you answer to is on your side; and then using JimmyJames' word track above to ask Cindy's mother to not bring her back to Scouts until she can reliably behave herself.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:13 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
Even if Cindy's misbehavior is the result of a disability rather than just nastiness, it's not really within your abilities or responsibility to provide special ed; and it definitely isn't the other girls (1st and 2nd graders'??) job to accommodate whatever Cindy's problem is, at the cost to themselves of an enjoyable after school activity. Every one of those activities has opportunity costs. If they're at scouts, they're not at ballet class or resting or doing homework. If their mom is driving them to Scouts, she isn't getting other things done that she'd like to with the limited resources of her day. If Cindy is ruining Scouts for the other girls, I just can't fathom why she's allowed to continue to do it.
I would suggest running it up the ladder, just to cover your ass and make sure whatever authority you answer to is on your side; and then using JimmyJames' word track above to ask Cindy's mother to not bring her back to Scouts until she can reliably behave herself.
posted by fingersandtoes at 4:13 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm the parent of an abnormal, poorly behaved child, and I agree with you that it isn't the other girls' responsibility. But the Girl Scouts organization does have a responsibility, one they've taken on themselves, to be inclusive, and there's no point in saying the national organization is inclusive if the individual troops aren't.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:28 PM on June 30, 2012 [18 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:28 PM on June 30, 2012 [18 favorites]
No, admittedly out of reluctance to initiate an unpleasant confrontation. ... I would like to request that an aide always accompany her, but that seems like it would be insulting to the mom.
If Cindy has a diagnosed illness contributing to her behavior (which seems very likely) then her mother is very well aware that her actions are disruptive and challenging. You seem to be assuming that it would be insulting to Cindy and her mother for you to even mention what should be obvious (at least to the adults).
My advice is for you to figure out what feels like a fair, reasonable and respectful approach to the problem and then convince yourself that you are not insulting them if you are being respectful, fair and reasonable. You do have both responsibility and authority as the troop leader - it is OK to use it. You also need to be respectful to Cindy and her mother. Saying "I'm fed up and kicking you out" is not respectful. Saying "the following specific behaviors are disruptive, they have not gotten better by themselves, we need to come up some new approaches." Part of the approach may be (1) be more clear about expectations for behavior at troop meetings (2) consequences (such as being sent home) if her behavior is inappropriate (3) asking the mother to come up with suggestions and/or consult with Cindy's support team for ideas.
Are you meeting during the summer? If so, that might be a good time for you to work with Cindy' mother to improve her behavior at meetings or if it doesn't improve, to be able to honestly say "This isn't working out" If not, my personal feeling is that after putting up with this four years, it would be inconsiderate to just kick her out without giving Cindy and her mother a chance to improve first. (Others may disagree on this). So, I would talk to the mother over the summer, ask her support in improving the situation for everyone in the troop and let her know that if Cindy is to continue you need a plan and a timeline.
posted by metahawk at 4:36 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
If Cindy has a diagnosed illness contributing to her behavior (which seems very likely) then her mother is very well aware that her actions are disruptive and challenging. You seem to be assuming that it would be insulting to Cindy and her mother for you to even mention what should be obvious (at least to the adults).
My advice is for you to figure out what feels like a fair, reasonable and respectful approach to the problem and then convince yourself that you are not insulting them if you are being respectful, fair and reasonable. You do have both responsibility and authority as the troop leader - it is OK to use it. You also need to be respectful to Cindy and her mother. Saying "I'm fed up and kicking you out" is not respectful. Saying "the following specific behaviors are disruptive, they have not gotten better by themselves, we need to come up some new approaches." Part of the approach may be (1) be more clear about expectations for behavior at troop meetings (2) consequences (such as being sent home) if her behavior is inappropriate (3) asking the mother to come up with suggestions and/or consult with Cindy's support team for ideas.
Are you meeting during the summer? If so, that might be a good time for you to work with Cindy' mother to improve her behavior at meetings or if it doesn't improve, to be able to honestly say "This isn't working out" If not, my personal feeling is that after putting up with this four years, it would be inconsiderate to just kick her out without giving Cindy and her mother a chance to improve first. (Others may disagree on this). So, I would talk to the mother over the summer, ask her support in improving the situation for everyone in the troop and let her know that if Cindy is to continue you need a plan and a timeline.
posted by metahawk at 4:36 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
it definitely isn't the other girls (1st and 2nd graders'??) job to accommodate whatever Cindy's problem is, at the cost to themselves of an enjoyable after school activity.
You're assuming a zero-sum game. Right now, that is indeed the situation: the other girls are "frustrated and mystified". But if they're taught about Cindy's syndrome, they'll be less mystified -- possibly even enlightened; and if they're given concrete ways in which they can help, they'll feel less frustrated -- possibly even fulfilled.
posted by feral_goldfish at 4:44 PM on June 30, 2012 [6 favorites]
You're assuming a zero-sum game. Right now, that is indeed the situation: the other girls are "frustrated and mystified". But if they're taught about Cindy's syndrome, they'll be less mystified -- possibly even enlightened; and if they're given concrete ways in which they can help, they'll feel less frustrated -- possibly even fulfilled.
posted by feral_goldfish at 4:44 PM on June 30, 2012 [6 favorites]
You've already given her so much. When you talk to her mom, and to yourself in your mind, keep in mind that you're not only taking something away from her. You're giving as much as you've already given, and now it's time to try something else, whether that's some kind of behavior agreement or for your difficult member to move on. Focus some on what she's accomplished and experienced, the good memories, rather than just OMG ugly situation.
posted by amtho at 5:05 PM on June 30, 2012
posted by amtho at 5:05 PM on June 30, 2012
I suggest talking to the council before you talk to the mom or Cindy. They do have specialists who can help with this, or they can get you in touch with the specialist at the regional association, or whatever. They can tell you what steps to take to handle it.
In my community, which is larger, there are actually a couple of specialized troops for girls with various disabilities or behavior issues, usually sponsored by an organization that works with that population, which may be a better fit for her if your community is large enough for such a thing. But there are a whole lot of solutions that the council can help you look at, and they can walk you through their procedures (and whatever legal ass-covering they also do).
Definitely a lot of parents of children with IEPs are quite happy to discuss the problem with non-school extracurricular leaders (in fact, many do so right at the outset). And many parents are willing to have education provided to the other children in a class/troop/club, so that the other children understand in what way so-and-so is different, and how they can help her feel comfortable and have good interactions. That's getting more and more common, and kids often do respond really well to it. With "mainstreaming" in schools, kids are exposed to a lot of other children who have disabilities or learning differences or behavior struggles, and they are often a lot more laid-back about it because it's always been part of their lives.
Not that it's necessarily appropriate for her to continue with your troop, or that educating the other girls will help in this particular situation, but that's what the council's inclusion specialist is for, to help you explore those options. And to help you have those difficult conversations with Cindy's mother.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:13 PM on June 30, 2012 [8 favorites]
In my community, which is larger, there are actually a couple of specialized troops for girls with various disabilities or behavior issues, usually sponsored by an organization that works with that population, which may be a better fit for her if your community is large enough for such a thing. But there are a whole lot of solutions that the council can help you look at, and they can walk you through their procedures (and whatever legal ass-covering they also do).
Definitely a lot of parents of children with IEPs are quite happy to discuss the problem with non-school extracurricular leaders (in fact, many do so right at the outset). And many parents are willing to have education provided to the other children in a class/troop/club, so that the other children understand in what way so-and-so is different, and how they can help her feel comfortable and have good interactions. That's getting more and more common, and kids often do respond really well to it. With "mainstreaming" in schools, kids are exposed to a lot of other children who have disabilities or learning differences or behavior struggles, and they are often a lot more laid-back about it because it's always been part of their lives.
Not that it's necessarily appropriate for her to continue with your troop, or that educating the other girls will help in this particular situation, but that's what the council's inclusion specialist is for, to help you explore those options. And to help you have those difficult conversations with Cindy's mother.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:13 PM on June 30, 2012 [8 favorites]
But the Girl Scouts organization does have a responsibility, one they've taken on themselves, to be inclusive, and there's no point in saying the national organization is inclusive if the individual troops aren't.
This is all well and good, and if you're willing to be the VOLUNTEER leader of a group that includes problem behavior children, then that's great, kudos to those that are that type--they're saints in my book. (FYI, I have a granddaughter with ADHD who is sorely lacking in social skills.)
That said, Anon is not a teacher or psychologist and doesn't have the training to manage her behavior and why should she have to be taxed with that, as a VOLUNTEER. OP didn't sign on for this, and shouldn't be 'taxed' with having to work with a child that's disruptive to the group overall. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
Frankly, if Cindy's mom wants her to be a part of a group, why doesn't SHE step up to the plate and volunteer?
Anon, refer this up the ladder and tell your support people they need to find this child another group that is a better fit for her. If they push back, gently remind them you are a VOLUNTEER without experience in these type of mental/behavioral problems, and that in order to provide the best leadership you can and feel comfortable continuing, something has to be done.
You're a Scout leader, not a miracle worker.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:37 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
This is all well and good, and if you're willing to be the VOLUNTEER leader of a group that includes problem behavior children, then that's great, kudos to those that are that type--they're saints in my book. (FYI, I have a granddaughter with ADHD who is sorely lacking in social skills.)
That said, Anon is not a teacher or psychologist and doesn't have the training to manage her behavior and why should she have to be taxed with that, as a VOLUNTEER. OP didn't sign on for this, and shouldn't be 'taxed' with having to work with a child that's disruptive to the group overall. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
Frankly, if Cindy's mom wants her to be a part of a group, why doesn't SHE step up to the plate and volunteer?
Anon, refer this up the ladder and tell your support people they need to find this child another group that is a better fit for her. If they push back, gently remind them you are a VOLUNTEER without experience in these type of mental/behavioral problems, and that in order to provide the best leadership you can and feel comfortable continuing, something has to be done.
You're a Scout leader, not a miracle worker.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:37 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
I am reading between the lines a bit and it seems to me that you might be a conflict avoider (welcome to the club!!). So maybe the advice you need is not all the practical advice that is listed above, but maybe you need a little kick in the pants to get you going, and permission to bring this issue up with the mother and your GS council and get a plan in place.
So: if you're willing to work with Cindy for another year, use the advice above to come up with specific behaviors for Cindy and specific requests for the mother and the council. Come up with a script for each thing you want, then call the mother and the council and put that plan in place. Steel yourself to be prepared to apply the consequences if the situation does not improve.
If you are not willing to go for another year, then use the advice above to write yourself a script and practice reading it in the mirror until you feel comfortable enough to talk to the mother about it.
posted by CathyG at 6:54 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
So: if you're willing to work with Cindy for another year, use the advice above to come up with specific behaviors for Cindy and specific requests for the mother and the council. Come up with a script for each thing you want, then call the mother and the council and put that plan in place. Steel yourself to be prepared to apply the consequences if the situation does not improve.
If you are not willing to go for another year, then use the advice above to write yourself a script and practice reading it in the mirror until you feel comfortable enough to talk to the mother about it.
posted by CathyG at 6:54 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
In a situation like this, I have found it valuable to discuss things in terms of norms. This makes things less about Cindy and more about specific guidelines and expectations that are set for the whole group. In this way, you make it clear that anyone (not just Cindy) who throws a tantrum or refuses to participate is violating a troop norm.
Some people, such as Cindy, may need accommodations or modifications (like an aide) in order to follow the norms. That's okay. Depending on communication thus far, it may be that neither Cindy or her mother realizes just how far her behavior is out of line with troop behavorial expectations. Dealing with things at the lowest possible level is generally best (e.g. having an informal conversation with Cindy's mom). If the situation doesn't improve, seeking formal assistance (as mentioned by other posters) is definitely important.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 7:25 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
Some people, such as Cindy, may need accommodations or modifications (like an aide) in order to follow the norms. That's okay. Depending on communication thus far, it may be that neither Cindy or her mother realizes just how far her behavior is out of line with troop behavorial expectations. Dealing with things at the lowest possible level is generally best (e.g. having an informal conversation with Cindy's mom). If the situation doesn't improve, seeking formal assistance (as mentioned by other posters) is definitely important.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 7:25 PM on June 30, 2012 [1 favorite]
The first thing I think needs to be dealt with here is going to the GS authorities, whoever they are, and find out (a) if this is allowed, and (b) if so, what's the procedure for kicking out a girl before everyone but that girl quits?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:34 PM on June 30, 2012
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:34 PM on June 30, 2012
Mod note: From the OP:
Your responses have been really thoughtful, and I appreciate that. Complicated interpersonal situations and conflict are not my strong suits (as you can see) and I want to do right by everyone here. After four years, it's not as simple as "sorry, this isn't working out, find another troop".posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:41 PM on June 30, 2012 [3 favorites]
Just to clarify, the girls are entering 4th grade next year (5th for Cindy). Also, as much as Cindy frustrates me, she is a smart, energetic kid with interesting ideas. I don't want to come off as "how do I get rid of this pain-in-the-ass kid?" because she has a lot to offer the group if she can participate successfully.
Sit down with mother and daughter and list your expectations... Then tell her that if she doesn't follow those expectations, she goes home immediately.
This seems like the way to go, with very specific guidelines and consequences, based on whatever has been working best at school or home. Lately my approach has been 'ignore it and she'll rejoin the group when she's ready' and her mom's is more 'stop that or I'll say stop again' (OK, that was a little snarky). Neither is working.
We're on summer break now, so sometime before the school year starts it would be good to work this out. I think it would go best if the mom and I hashed out a plan together and then presented it to Cindy. That way, if she reacts badly or needs time to adjust, at least the adults are on the same page.
I like her aides and have appreciated their help in the past. If you guys think requesting that is reasonable and would not come across as "you can't manage your kid, please send in a professional", then I will do it.
I suggest talking to the council before you talk to the mom or Cindy.
I like this idea. They have had workshops on including girls with disabilities in the past, mainly focused on physical challenges, but someone must have ideas and resources for emotional/behavioral issues as well. I'll call on Monday.
My advice is for you to figure out what feels like a fair, reasonable and respectful approach to the problem and then convince yourself that you are not insulting them if you are being respectful, fair and reasonable.
I should embroider this on a pillow. This is something conflict-avoidant me needs to read every day.
the other girls are "frustrated and mystified". But if they're taught about Cindy's syndrome, they'll be less mystified -- possibly even enlightened; and if they're given concrete ways in which they can help, they'll feel less frustrated -- possibly even fulfilled.
This! If you can get the help you need (an aide, Cindy's mom on board, help from GS) this could actually be an awesome opportunity for the other girls. Rather than just disappearing someone with disabilities, learning how to communicate/help her manage could become part of what the troop teaches.
And include her in that; maybe she can talk about what it's like to have Asperger's (or whatever) if she's comfortable with that, and the things she does to deal with it. That might be too much to ask of her, but if you can involve Cindy in the process as much as possible rather than talking about her, that would be the best. A speaker from a local group that helps people with her disability could be a great thing to have also, not to mention being a valuable resource for you in dealing with the situation.
It's probably not what you had in mind as a troop leader, but GS is about helping girls become thoughtful and mature human beings, and learning how to treat each other well even when a disability makes it more confusing is a really valuable thing to learn.
posted by emjaybee at 8:29 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
This! If you can get the help you need (an aide, Cindy's mom on board, help from GS) this could actually be an awesome opportunity for the other girls. Rather than just disappearing someone with disabilities, learning how to communicate/help her manage could become part of what the troop teaches.
And include her in that; maybe she can talk about what it's like to have Asperger's (or whatever) if she's comfortable with that, and the things she does to deal with it. That might be too much to ask of her, but if you can involve Cindy in the process as much as possible rather than talking about her, that would be the best. A speaker from a local group that helps people with her disability could be a great thing to have also, not to mention being a valuable resource for you in dealing with the situation.
It's probably not what you had in mind as a troop leader, but GS is about helping girls become thoughtful and mature human beings, and learning how to treat each other well even when a disability makes it more confusing is a really valuable thing to learn.
posted by emjaybee at 8:29 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
Some organizations are covered by disability nondiscrimination statutes. I agree with those who suggest contacting the organization for guidance.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 9:00 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 9:00 PM on June 30, 2012 [2 favorites]
When I was in Girl Scouts from Brownies to Juniors, there was only one troop per age level in the area. I and half the other girls in my troop ended up leaving Scouts altogether after Juniors rather than continue with that troop leader, whose two daughters were in the troop and who she let get away with murder (the youngest was Daisy-age(!) but still came on all our Junior meetings/trips to run around screaming).
Looking back I can't say if the troop princesses had actual behavior problems beyond "spoiled brats," but we other girls in the troop resented the hell out of them and resented the adults more for pretending everything was fine. I agree it's time for a (gentle) frank talk with Cindy & her mom and with the other girls in her troop, who have no other source of background info. It's not going to help Cindy's social skills if her peermates are thinking "Cindy gets away with everything and the grownups just let her, but WE wouldn't be allowed to act like that! She's older but she acts like a selfish baby! We're going to gather around and whisper viciously behind her back!"
Which doesn't mean give a Very Special Talk about "Cindy is a special damaged snowflake, let's gather around and pity her!" But something about "hey guys, I acknowledge we've had these problems, here's what we're going to do and change to fix it." And emphasize that it's not just Cindy who has special behavior restrictions; ANYBODY who's disruptive in such&such ways gets sent home for the day immediately.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:04 PM on June 30, 2012
Looking back I can't say if the troop princesses had actual behavior problems beyond "spoiled brats," but we other girls in the troop resented the hell out of them and resented the adults more for pretending everything was fine. I agree it's time for a (gentle) frank talk with Cindy & her mom and with the other girls in her troop, who have no other source of background info. It's not going to help Cindy's social skills if her peermates are thinking "Cindy gets away with everything and the grownups just let her, but WE wouldn't be allowed to act like that! She's older but she acts like a selfish baby! We're going to gather around and whisper viciously behind her back!"
Which doesn't mean give a Very Special Talk about "Cindy is a special damaged snowflake, let's gather around and pity her!" But something about "hey guys, I acknowledge we've had these problems, here's what we're going to do and change to fix it." And emphasize that it's not just Cindy who has special behavior restrictions; ANYBODY who's disruptive in such&such ways gets sent home for the day immediately.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:04 PM on June 30, 2012
That said, Anon is not a teacher or psychologist and doesn't have the training to manage her behavior and why should she have to be taxed with that, as a VOLUNTEER.
Yes, that's why many people have said that Anon should get help from higher up in the organization. Anon needs support so she can support Cindy, just as Anon would need support if a scout joins the troop who uses a wheelchair, is deaf -- as was the founder of Girl Scouts -- or doesn't speak English.
Frankly, if Cindy's mom wants her to be a part of a group, why doesn't SHE step up to the plate and volunteer?
She does. She comes to the meetings with her. This might be part of the problem.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:12 PM on June 30, 2012 [4 favorites]
Yes, that's why many people have said that Anon should get help from higher up in the organization. Anon needs support so she can support Cindy, just as Anon would need support if a scout joins the troop who uses a wheelchair, is deaf -- as was the founder of Girl Scouts -- or doesn't speak English.
Frankly, if Cindy's mom wants her to be a part of a group, why doesn't SHE step up to the plate and volunteer?
She does. She comes to the meetings with her. This might be part of the problem.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:12 PM on June 30, 2012 [4 favorites]
hat said, Anon is not a teacher or psychologist and doesn't have the training to manage her behavior and why should she have to be taxed with that, as a VOLUNTEER. OP didn't sign on for this, and shouldn't be 'taxed' with having to work with a child that's disruptive to the group overall. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
We all deal with people every day that we didn't sign on to encounter. The whole point of the Girl Scouts is to for girls experience a broader sense of the world to help them develop self-reliance and compassion. I'm frankly a little speechless at the inference that the only people outside of family who should have to put up with emotionally difficult kids are those who are paid to do so.
anonymous, I think you're selling yourself a little short on your ability to handle things with Cindy's mom without seeming combative. Just tell her some of what you told us -- you're trying to do right by the entire troop but you're feeling overwhelmed by Cindy's behavior. You empathize with the girl because you were a disruptive kid. You need Cindy's mom to work with you so that Cindy and all the girls can benefit from Scouting, and here are some things to consider: there won't be a troop unless you do something, you have noticed that Cindy does better in this group with an aide rather than mom (which isn't really unusual at all for a lot of kids). The girls have questions like [examples] and you aren't sure what to share. And so forth.
posted by desuetude at 9:13 PM on July 1, 2012 [3 favorites]
We all deal with people every day that we didn't sign on to encounter. The whole point of the Girl Scouts is to for girls experience a broader sense of the world to help them develop self-reliance and compassion. I'm frankly a little speechless at the inference that the only people outside of family who should have to put up with emotionally difficult kids are those who are paid to do so.
anonymous, I think you're selling yourself a little short on your ability to handle things with Cindy's mom without seeming combative. Just tell her some of what you told us -- you're trying to do right by the entire troop but you're feeling overwhelmed by Cindy's behavior. You empathize with the girl because you were a disruptive kid. You need Cindy's mom to work with you so that Cindy and all the girls can benefit from Scouting, and here are some things to consider: there won't be a troop unless you do something, you have noticed that Cindy does better in this group with an aide rather than mom (which isn't really unusual at all for a lot of kids). The girls have questions like [examples] and you aren't sure what to share. And so forth.
posted by desuetude at 9:13 PM on July 1, 2012 [3 favorites]
A friend of a friend was dealing with a very similar issue - my aunt, who is a girl scout leader out west had the following advice:
First thing: You are a volunteer, your energy and time are valuable. Without you there will not be a troop, and there is only so much you should have to deal with (it is the *staff* that should be dealing with the really tough stuff). And you have the safety of the other girls to think of - not just physical safety, but a supportive, non-hostile environment.
Some of these suggestions are personal experience, others are things I read about in online Girl Scout discussion groups. Two GS Yahoo groups I have found pretty helpful are AllGirlScouts and GreenBloodGab - if you have time!
I strongly suggest that you document everything about this girl - what she has done, what you have done, people you have talked to, etc. If there are emails and such, save them. When it gets down to "they said/I said" good notes are very helpful.
There is an older Girl Scout book called "focus on ability" - it has information on dealing with disabilities in a troop setting. It may now be too dated to be of use, but maybe there is something?
Some troops have done projects to increase awareness about a disability a troop member had. This could be a way of everyone learning to understand the issues and maybe even learn to manage the behavior. These days it could even be a Take Action project or Bronze /Silver /Gold award.
For behavioral issues: Many troops have rules of conduct (based on the Girl Scout Law): What isn't acceptable, and consequences if they don't behave. A lot of times if a girl doesn't behave on an outing, or at a meeting, the consequence is a parent takes the girl home. That may be a reasonable consequence in this circumstance. There are also consequences that if you can't behave at the planning meetings, you can't go on the outings.
Does this girl respond to rewards? Can all the troop give her some kind of token/ticket when they "catch" her behaving, and then there is some kind of reward (special snack, or dollar tree item) when she gets enough tokens?
The next set of steps are kind of tricky. It really depends on your council and its policies, and how much you trust your Service Unit Manager (or whatever the volunteer coordinator/manager/facilitator is called in your area) and your council representative.
Best case scenario: You can talk either or both, and they understand and back you up. They might help you find another troop/placement for this girl. Or, more likely, help explain to the mother of this girl that there are many Pathways for a Girl Scout experience, and it doesn't seem like a troop is the pathway for the girl at this time. She can stay registered as a Juliette (or I guess they are Individual Girl Scouts these days?) and the mom can help her participate.
Worst case scenario: Council tells you tough, you took the girl & you have to keep her. I have heard of councils that say that! Then the rules of conduct might be some help there. I've read about at least one troop that got so fed up that they disbanded the troop and became Independents. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to this, but I thought I'd give you all the information I could remember.
posted by arnicae at 9:24 PM on July 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
First thing: You are a volunteer, your energy and time are valuable. Without you there will not be a troop, and there is only so much you should have to deal with (it is the *staff* that should be dealing with the really tough stuff). And you have the safety of the other girls to think of - not just physical safety, but a supportive, non-hostile environment.
Some of these suggestions are personal experience, others are things I read about in online Girl Scout discussion groups. Two GS Yahoo groups I have found pretty helpful are AllGirlScouts and GreenBloodGab - if you have time!
I strongly suggest that you document everything about this girl - what she has done, what you have done, people you have talked to, etc. If there are emails and such, save them. When it gets down to "they said/I said" good notes are very helpful.
There is an older Girl Scout book called "focus on ability" - it has information on dealing with disabilities in a troop setting. It may now be too dated to be of use, but maybe there is something?
Some troops have done projects to increase awareness about a disability a troop member had. This could be a way of everyone learning to understand the issues and maybe even learn to manage the behavior. These days it could even be a Take Action project or Bronze /Silver /Gold award.
For behavioral issues: Many troops have rules of conduct (based on the Girl Scout Law): What isn't acceptable, and consequences if they don't behave. A lot of times if a girl doesn't behave on an outing, or at a meeting, the consequence is a parent takes the girl home. That may be a reasonable consequence in this circumstance. There are also consequences that if you can't behave at the planning meetings, you can't go on the outings.
Does this girl respond to rewards? Can all the troop give her some kind of token/ticket when they "catch" her behaving, and then there is some kind of reward (special snack, or dollar tree item) when she gets enough tokens?
The next set of steps are kind of tricky. It really depends on your council and its policies, and how much you trust your Service Unit Manager (or whatever the volunteer coordinator/manager/facilitator is called in your area) and your council representative.
Best case scenario: You can talk either or both, and they understand and back you up. They might help you find another troop/placement for this girl. Or, more likely, help explain to the mother of this girl that there are many Pathways for a Girl Scout experience, and it doesn't seem like a troop is the pathway for the girl at this time. She can stay registered as a Juliette (or I guess they are Individual Girl Scouts these days?) and the mom can help her participate.
Worst case scenario: Council tells you tough, you took the girl & you have to keep her. I have heard of councils that say that! Then the rules of conduct might be some help there. I've read about at least one troop that got so fed up that they disbanded the troop and became Independents. I sincerely hope it doesn't come to this, but I thought I'd give you all the information I could remember.
posted by arnicae at 9:24 PM on July 3, 2012 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by easily confused at 12:42 PM on June 30, 2012 [20 favorites]